so who knows Batman ID after Rest in peace

[IamtheRock3]

Joker HAS to know by now right

and all of the black glove crew

[ZT4]

Nobody specified the RIP stood for "Rest In Peace"

And learning Batman's identity is completly irrelevant, since Batman is the person, and Bruce the identity. The Joker's probably known for years anyway, the silent staredown between himself and Bruce in "Death in the Family" was meant to sort of reflect on that "does he/doesnt he" notion.

Here, Morrison pretty much doesnt even make it a big deal....which, to The Joker, really isnt one.

If Dini were writing it though, The Joker would probably give a damn, since evidence of this is apparent in "Return of the Joker", but O'Neil and Morrison would rather have The Joker put a name to the face, but be only interested in the mask.

I think the same can be spoken for The Black Glove too.

[IamtheRock3]

well it important cause they can attack wayne at his home like Black glove did

or the times he posing as Bruce Wayne.

I mean they would certainly know if that Batman alive.

[Red_Knight]

Let's see... I think apart from the COV and the "Fingers" of the Glove, no one new is in the know. I can't see hired hands being given that information.

Hurt knows, of course, but since he is the devil, it doesn't really matter, I suppose. He won't run to the tabloids.

The Fingers of the Glove are being taken care of by Talia and/or the Joker, apparently. Jezebel was (probably) killed by Talia's Manbats, and cardinal Maggi (sp?) got offed as well, according to the newsclipping we see "six months later". I think it's safe to assume that none of these guys will be blessed with a particularly long life...

The COV is a different matter. El Sombrero was killed by the Joker, but the rest of the club is still alive, albeit most of them seem to be in custody. I wonder whether Morrison will revisit these characters. They'd have no reason to keep Batman's identity secret, after all. Then again, maybe we are supposed to assume that Talia will get to them, too.

[Sizzle]

I have always belived the Joker knows, but does not care. As he identifies the man as Batman and the mask as Bruce.

[Mat001]

I have always belived the Joker knows, but does not care. As he identifies the man as Batman and the mask as Bruce.

Way back when Jason died, Bruce suspected that the Joker knew based on the exchange they had in Batman #429. When the Joker stopped and stared at Bruce Wayne, Bruce wondered if he knew or not. The Joker doesn't care about Bruce Wayne. Batman is the one he cares about.

[frostedone]

Non superheroes/Batfamily who know Batman's identity:

Commissioner Gordon (knew before this arc, and certainly knows now)

Joker- he knows but doesn't care.

Ra's Al Ghul - he respects the secret though.

The League of Assasains - the Ninja all know from the Ressurection of Ra's arc. They attacked Wayne Manor.

Bane- his secret identity is safe, as Bane keeps it to himself.

The living members of the Black Glove.

Most likely Darkseid and co.

Dr. Hugo Strange - He knows and I am not sure the secret is safe. I have never read a Hugo Strange story. Any recommendations?

I think thats it as for regular people. Obviously the JL/JSA/Titans know too.

[davepaton]

[QUOTE=Commissioner Gordon (knew before this arc, and certainly knows now).[/QUOTE]

I agree that Gordon could find out who Batman was if he wanted, probably did know before RIP and unless he was a complete idiot would definitely know after RIP. However the way Talia and Robin spoke to him in 681 made it seem like he still doesn't know who Batman is and that DC aren't going to make any attempt to explain it even though he blatantly would know.

[Chad]

Having not followed RIP, can someone tell me whether or not Batman knows that Joker knows he's Bruce Wayne? I mean, Morrison himself established in Arkham Asylum that to the Joker, Batman's masked face is his real face, so I can understand that from the Joker's POV this is useless information. However, there is no way Batman would be comfortable with this line of reasoning. The Joker's gone after Barbara Gordon, Sarah Essen, Jason Todd - all people he attacked because of a personal vendetta with either Gordon or Batman. Is Batman going to tell Alfred "Don't worry the Joker knows who I am, but he enjoys our battles of wits too much to kill me" "Very good sir, and what about Master Timothy and myself?" ".....hm. You know, I never really looked at it that way".

[frostedone]

Alfred was an actor once right? The Joker probably saw one of his old plays or movies and respects him for his theatrical talent. Alfred is safe. Tim,being an actual enemy and all, not so much.

My reasoning is akin to that of the Joker's respect for the Marx Bros. He genuinely likes what they wrote.

Besides Alfred would totally kick the Joker's butt. Batman could probably use Alfred as a taunt. "Don't make me sick Alfred on you."

[Red_Knight]

I agree that Gordon could find out who Batman was if he wanted, probably did know before RIP and unless he was a complete idiot would definitely know after RIP. However the way Talia and Robin spoke to him in 681 made it seem like he still doesn't know who Batman is and that DC aren't going to make any attempt to explain it even though he blatantly would know.

I'd say Gordon knows. It's been implied that he's known for a while, and might have found out way back in Year One. In any case, he'd be a pretty poor cop if he didn't now. I mean, he stumbled into a booby-trapped Wayne Manor, where he encountered Talia Al Ghul and the Son of Batman, who casually discussed batmobiles in front of him, with the actual Batman nowhere in sight. Business rivals looking to destroy Bruce Wayne? Yeah, right.

IMO, Gordon knows. It's just that he can't know, being the commissioner and all.

[Red_Knight]

Having not followed RIP, can someone tell me whether or not Batman knows that Joker knows he's Bruce Wayne? I mean, Morrison himself established in Arkham Asylum that to the Joker, Batman's masked face is his real face, so I can understand that from the Joker's POV this is useless information.

It wasn't dealt with, but Bruce unmasked right in front of him in #680 and was addressed by name, too. Taking into account Bruce's celebrity status as well, the Joker would have to be a complete idiot not to know. I do think he doesn't care, though. He certainly didn't react to seeing Batman unmasked.

However, there is no way Batman would be comfortable with this line of reasoning. The Joker's gone after Barbara Gordon, Sarah Essen, Jason Todd - all people he attacked because of a personal vendetta with either Gordon or Batman.

You neglect one important detail, though: The Joker didn't go after Jason Todd. He went after Robin. Also, Barbara wasn't shot because she was Batgirl; -- she became a target because she was Gordon's daughter.

In fact, I think Gordon and his ilk are more in danger than the Bat Family, simply because James Gordon is always James Gordon, both on- and off-duty. His name is in the phone book, and his address is in the directory. None of this is true for Batman and Robin. The Joker doesn't differentiate between Gordon the cop and Gordon the man; -- he does seem to differentiate between Batman and Bruce Wayne, though, at least on a subconscious level.

(Of course, since Morrison established that the Joker changes personalities every couple of years, Bruce can't ever be sure any of this will remain true in the long run. But it is a comic book, after all...)

[davepaton]

I'd say Gordon knows. It's been implied that he's known for a while, and might have found out way back in Year One. In any case, he'd be a pretty poor cop if he didn't now. I mean, he stumbled into a booby-trapped Wayne Manor, where he encountered Talia Al Ghul and the Son of Batman, who casually discussed batmobiles in front of him, with the actual Batman nowhere in sight. Business rivals looking to destroy Bruce Wayne? Yeah, right.

IMO, Gordon knows. It's just that he can't know, being the commissioner and all.

Absolutely i agree with everything you said but what you've said. However I think that DC are going to ignore all of this and continue the status quo i.e. gordon doesn't know bruce wayne is batman (or at least doesn't let on that he knows)

[Chad]

It wasn't dealt with, but Bruce unmasked right in front of him in #680 and was addressed by name, too. Taking into account Bruce's celebrity status as well, the Joker would have to be a complete idiot not to know. I do think he doesn't care, though. He certainly didn't react to seeing Batman unmasked.

You neglect one important detail, though: The Joker didn't go after Jason Todd. He went after Robin. Also, Barbara wasn't shot because she was Batgirl; -- she became a target because she was Gordon's daughter.

In fact, I think Gordon and his ilk are more in danger than the Bat Family, simply because James Gordon is always James Gordon, both on- and off-duty. His name is in the phone book, and his address is in the directory. None of this is true for Batman and Robin. The Joker doesn't differentiate between Gordon the cop and Gordon the man; -- he does seem to differentiate between Batman and Bruce Wayne, though, at least on a subconscious level.

(Of course, since Morrison established that the Joker changes personalities every couple of years, Bruce can't ever be sure any of this will remain true in the long run. But it is a comic book, after all...)

Joker might not care about Bruce Wayne, but if he came up with a way of hurting Batman through his secret identity he'd definately take it. Didn't Morrison have him threaten to lobotimize and castrate Batman in his 663? Isn't the Joker the kind of person who would kill someone simply because he learned of an interesting little tidbit about their private life that would give that person's death an interesting twist? And that's just how he'd treat a complete stranger who happened to have an allergy to peanuts and has a surrname of Carver. The Joker has made it clear that he would not pull his punches when it comes to hurting Batman.

Batman unmasked in front of him?! Did he also hand him a map to his house and let him know when he'd be out? Are there any enemies he would have a problem with knowing his identity? Would he have refused to have unmasked in front of say, the Polka Dot Man?

I brought up the Joker's obsession with Gordon just to show that it isn't unheard of for him to go after an enemy's family members. When Batman found out that the Joker might still be alive after Death in the Family, he had Alfred send Tim out of the country that night. No way would Batman shrug off the Joker - an enemy he stated in this very storyline that he didn't understand and someone who's supposed to be unpredictable - knowing his identity.

I'm not arguing that it's isn't possible that the Joker would decide that Bruce Wayne is nothing to him - but there is no way that Batman would ever take that gamble.

[Bamf25]

I agree that Gordon could find out who Batman was if he wanted, probably did know before RIP and unless he was a complete idiot would definitely know after RIP. However the way Talia and Robin spoke to him in 681 made it seem like he still doesn't know who Batman is and that DC aren't going to make any attempt to explain it even though he blatantly would know.

I forget where it happened (Maybe near the end of Hush or No Man's Land I really wish I could remember)) where Batman starts to take off his mask to Gordon. Gordon turns away and basically says he does not want to know for sure, but he thanks Batman for trusting him. This scene always made me believe Gordon knows, but for their relationship, and Gordon's plausable deniability as commisioner he needed it to remain secret.

Oh, Catwoman knows his identity as was revealed during Hush, and she would not tell.

[Red_Knight]

Batman unmasked in front of him?! Did he also hand him a map to his house and let him know when he'd be out?

:tongue: If you didn't follow RIP (which you should catch up on, as it ROCKS!), it would take a while to explain, but it's not like Bruce pulled off the cowl and went "peek-a-boo!". At the time, he was pretty much going insane due to The Black Glove's attempts to split his mind.

I brought up the Joker's obsession with Gordon just to show that it isn't unheard of for him to go after an enemy's family members.

Definitely true. Tim Drake and Dick Grayson aren't part of Batman's family as the Joker defines it, though. Robin and Nightwing are.

When Batman found out that the Joker might still be alive after Death in the Family, he had Alfred send Tim out of the country that night.

I think that was before the idea of Joker not caring about Batman's secret identity was introduced, though. AFAIK, it has become almost canonical in years since then. Personally, I'd theorize that the Joker might not even consciously realize -- or won't allow himself to realize -- that Bruce Wayne IS Batman. It seems that they are two separate entities to him.

No way would Batman shrug off the Joker - an enemy he stated in this very storyline that he didn't understand and someone who's supposed to be unpredictable - knowing his identity.

Again, -- in "realistic" terms, you are absolutely right. Bruce should be going crazy. This is a comic book, though. I mean, the Joker knows now. At the very least, there's a very, very good chance he knows. What can Bruce do, though? He'd have to permanently go underground or kill the guy. Unfortunately, both of these would mess up the status quo pretty badly. :tongue:

[lepeos]

I'd say Gordon's known since the end of Year One

[frostedone]

When did Batman try top unmask in front of Gordon in No Man's Land?

[Bamf25]

He starts to unmask ontop of Gordon's apparment building telling him that he deserves to know. I am not sure whether it was at the conclusion of No Man's Land or during the Hush run. Could someone help me on this, I can picture the sceen just not the issue right now.

[Spiffy]

Non superheroes/Batfamily who know Batman's identity:

Commissioner Gordon (knew before this arc, and certainly knows now)

Joker- he knows but doesn't care.

Ra's Al Ghul - he respects the secret though.

The League of Assasains - the Ninja all know from the Ressurection of Ra's arc. They attacked Wayne Manor.

Bane- his secret identity is safe, as Bane keeps it to himself.

The living members of the Black Glove.

Most likely Darkseid and co.

Dr. Hugo Strange - He knows and I am not sure the secret is safe. I have never read a Hugo Strange story. Any recommendations?

I think thats it as for regular people. Obviously the JL/JSA/Titans know too.
Don't various people in the government and/or spy world know too? Or at least have cause to suspect but without proof? I'm thinking of people like Amanda Waller, maybe Sarge Steel, folks like that.

[jgiannantoni05]

It might be easier for some to believe Gordon knows. And it's kinda fun to imagine that he does know and you can wonder about little comments he makes to Bruce.

But technically, you can't be certain Gordon knows. Even though there's been plenty of hints he's known starting in Miller's Year One. But, that's it.

I at least think Gordon could know, but I remember some issue or episode of something suggested he deliberately doesn't think about it, so he doesn't feel guilty. Thought it was interesting.

Firstly, I never want to know for certain whether Gordon knows. Second, personally, I'm torn b/w a) knows and b) deliberately shuts out of mind so as to make himself think he's sticking to principles as a cop.
________
SIENNA (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Toyota_Sienna)

[zenbullet]

During the whole Hugo Strange storyline Joker threatened to kill the mob guy who was trying to find out the man under the mask.


Joker doesn't want to know. It would ruin it for him.


{i haven't read the ending yet, so i dunno, but i imagine joker would do his damndest to forget the truth}

[ZT4]

Joker was a little more "traditional" back then, he went off the rails during DITF in addition to afterwards.

[perceval]

Non superheroes/Batfamily who know Batman's identity:

Commissioner Gordon (knew before this arc, and certainly knows now)

Joker- he knows but doesn't care.

Ra's Al Ghul - he respects the secret though.

The League of Assasains - the Ninja all know from the Ressurection of Ra's arc. They attacked Wayne Manor.

Bane- his secret identity is safe, as Bane keeps it to himself.

The living members of the Black Glove.

Most likely Darkseid and co.

Dr. Hugo Strange - He knows and I am not sure the secret is safe. I have never read a Hugo Strange story. Any recommendations?

I think thats it as for regular people. Obviously the JL/JSA/Titans know too.

Don't forget Selina and Hush.

It's also been strongly hinted over the years that Harley Quinn figured it out, from her ability to read people and other hints she picked up...

"He's got a presence, Lewis. He hides it under that society suave, but there's a real intensity. Only others I ever met like that were Mistah J... and Batman."

That story climaxed with her and the Riddler finding the entrance to the Batcave behind the grandfather clock, though they didn't get the opportunity to explore where those stairs going underground led to, due to Wayne Manor getting destroyed.

Some issues later, Batman confronts her after she's just killed Nixon Two-Bear, a henchman who made the fatal mistake of double crossing her (Really, henchmen should know better than that)...

Harley: Well... Good to see you too, Mistah B! I was gonna say it's nice that you could make my little shindig... But now I'm thinkin' I don't want you here!

Batman: You're the one who's wanted, Quinn, on charges relating to a theft from the Finger Warehouse...

Harley: (amused) Like anyone really cares! Gimme a break!

Batman: ...Destruction of portions of the Happyland Amusement Park, Gotham Zoo, Radio Drive, Gotham Galleria... and Wayne Manor...

Harley: (very amused, now) Ooo! The way you said that! Brucie a pal of yours?

Batman: ...and the deaths of Lester Wilde, Margo Wachsler, Odin Markus, "Easy" McKee, and at least half a dozen others...

Harley: Losing. Interest.

Batman: ...including Nixon Two-Bear.

Harley: Nixon... Nixon... Why do I know that name?

Some issues later, she seems to know more about Bats than she should...

"I wonder if you've ever thought about giving it all up. The huge house. The car. The life. Just walk away. Give it all up. Settle down. Take a job somewhere. Anywhere. Like Kinko's. Become a copy jockey. Refill the toner in someone else's life... How do you know when it's time to come in from the cold?"

Of course, she'd know about the car, but how'd she know about the huge house?

Riddler used to know, but doesn't, any more, or so he says.

So, maybe it's now more a question of who doesn't know?

[protege]

Non superheroes/Batfamily who know Batman's identity:

Commissioner Gordon (knew before this arc, and certainly knows now)

Joker- he knows but doesn't care.

Ra's Al Ghul - he respects the secret though.

The League of Assasains - the Ninja all know from the Ressurection of Ra's arc. They attacked Wayne Manor.

Bane- his secret identity is safe, as Bane keeps it to himself.

The living members of the Black Glove.

Most likely Darkseid and co.

Dr. Hugo Strange - He knows and I am not sure the secret is safe. I have never read a Hugo Strange story. Any recommendations?

I think thats it as for regular people. Obviously the JL/JSA/Titans know too.
When did Gordon find out?

[perceval]

When did Gordon find out?

It was clear he knew way back in Batman: Year One.

[Super Buddies Forever]

Has it ever been effectively concluded if Lois Lane knows? I'm assuming she does, especially post-Identity Crisis where the spouses of the heroes know every secret identity (including Robin's).

[IamtheRock3]

well it never been CLEAR gordon knew in year one

certain writer writer as if he knows

certain writers think he dont

[earl]

I always looked at it that Gordon knows Bruce Wayne is Batman, but he doesn't really want to have it confirmed, because if it was, he might have to take him in being good cop an all at some point.

If I was a writer, that is how I would play it out.

[Lester C.]

Has it ever been effectively concluded if Lois Lane knows? I'm assuming she does, especially post-Identity Crisis where the spouses of the heroes know every secret identity (including Robin's).

If Batman Hush is still canon then yes. She flirts with Bruce to try to find out what Batman is up to and says as much to Clark.

Over in Birds Of Prey Black Canary, in her head, calls Batman Bruce so she knows too.

[DonC]

Who knows Batman's identity, like all heroes, fluctuates depending on the needs of the story. Hawkgirl knew in one issue. I mean, come on, Hawkgirl?

[Lester C.]

Who knows Batman's identity, like all heroes, fluctuates depending on the needs of the story. Hawkgirl knew in one issue. I mean, come on, Hawkgirl?

That kinda makes sense. In Waid's run on the JLA Batman unmasked before them so that news could have gotten back to Hawkgirl.

Another scenerio is that Roy Harper could have told her during pillow talk as he knows who Nightwing is or could have found out from Green Arrow as Canary also knew in an issues of BOP.