Battle for the Cowl and beyond: is the new Batman already a dead man?

[hurk]

BEWARE, Batman 681 spoilers ahead:

So it seems as though Dick Grayson will be taking over the mantle—there’s been much foreshadowing in his own title, and finally in Batman 681 when he holds the cowl.

My question: is Dick Grayson a dead man? Consider:

A) In Batman 666, Damian says he can’t be as good a Batman as Bruce or even Dick Grayson. Presumably, Dick takes over the mantle.

B) In Batman 666 someone asks Commissioner Barbara Gordon why she hates Damian. She hesitates and says he was responsible for the death of “a good friend”. Is that Dick?

C) In Batman 666, a flashback of YOUNG Damian as Robin shows him shouting over the dead body of Batman—a Batman with a modified costume (the symbol has a longer tail, which can also be seen in the trophy room in Damian’s batcave). Is this Dick’s variation of the costume?

D) At the end of Batman 681, Dr. Hurt says “I curse the cape and cowl… the next time you wear it will be your last”. He curses the cape and cowl. Not Bruce. Was the phrasing done that way on purpose? If Dick is next to wear the cape and cowl, does he suffer the cursed fate assigned by Dr. Hurt?

E) Morrison has said all along the clues in his story are obvious. These seem pretty obvious.

F) Didio supposedly hates Dick Grayson.

Thoughts?

[zomg]

D) It's Bruce who's wearing the cape and cowl in Final Crisis which takes place after RIP ;)

[Vidocq]

BEWARE, Batman 681 spoilers ahead:

So it seems as though Dick Grayson will be taking over the mantle—there’s been much foreshadowing in his own title, and finally in Batman 681 when he holds the cowl.

My question: is Dick Grayson a dead man? Consider:

A) In Batman 666, Damian says he can’t be as good a Batman as Bruce or even Dick Grayson. Presumably, Dick takes over the mantle.

B) In Batman 666 someone asks Commissioner Barbara Gordon why she hates Damian. She hesitates and says he was responsible for the death of “a good friend”. Is that Dick?

C) In Batman 666, a flashback of YOUNG Damian as Robin shows him shouting over the dead body of Batman—a Batman with a modified costume (the symbol has a longer tail, which can also be seen in the trophy room in Damian’s batcave). Is this Dick’s variation of the costume?

D) At the end of Batman 681, Dr. Hurt says “I curse the cape and cowl… the next time you wear it will be your last”. He curses the cape and cowl. Not Bruce. Was the phrasing done that way on purpose? If Dick is next to wear the cape and cowl, does he suffer the cursed fate assigned by Dr. Hurt?

E) Morrison has said all along the clues in his story are obvious. These seem pretty obvious.

F) Didio supposedly hates Dick Grayson.

Thoughts?

I was just talking about this possibility with a friend of mine, And I think that is very likely that Dick is the Batman who will be killed and Damian will be Robin and will be accused of being the murder. Since it all happen in the future, I don't think that we will see it happen though.

Then again, that means that Damian will be Robin after BOC and would pass from being a dispecable supporting character to a dispecable Robin.

[frostedone]

Killing Dick would be a real dick move on DCs part. People did not like Jason Todd and voted to kill him. His resurrection was pure crap.

Resurrection does NOT WORK in BATMAN comics. Other the Ra's Al Ghul and his Lazarus Pits of course, but that is HIS thing. Dick has way to many fans, and the backlash would be bigger then that of turning Cassandra Cain evil, which was enormous by itself.

It would be a death wish for DC's sales.

Superman's death was a good thing in that we pretty much knew that he would be back someday. DC also got a truckload of money from the hype and the issues.

With Dick Grayson it would be the opposite, since supernatural stuff generally doesn't work with Batman stories like I said.

If Dick is with the Titans, then yeah Supernatural stuff if part of his character, with having people like Raven around and stuff. In the Batman stories, it is much harder to get it to work.

[zur en arrh]

If Dick is killed off, I riot.

Not really, but I will be very angry :(

But you make some good points. Now that 681 is over, 666 is becoming rather pivotal.

[AJM]

D) It's Bruce who's wearing the cape and cowl in Final Crisis which takes place after RIP ;)

Didn't Morrison says it's Bruce, but not as we know him? Maybe Dick is secretly masquerading as Bruce / Batman? Or maybe Morrison made a mistake and meant it was Batman but not as we know him?

I don't know. I just don't see how we can they can bring him back and then have the Battle For The Cowl.

And i think that Dick dying is a very real possibility. Perhaps the cape and cowl are cursed until Damian makes that deal with the Devil?

[flying grayson]

I sure hope not, man, but your points are very convincing. :frown:

[joemagnum611]

Didn't Morrison says it's Bruce, but not as we know him? Maybe Dick is secretly masquerading as Bruce / Batman? Or maybe Morrison made a mistake and meant it was Batman but not as we know him?

I don't know. I just don't see how we can they can bring him back and then have the Battle For The Cowl.

And i think that Dick dying is a very real possibility. Perhaps the cape and cowl are cursed until Damian makes that deal with the Devil?

Well I think that it was stated that we can't assume that it's Bruce. He's never called Bruce by anyone not even Superman or Wonder Woman

[ZT4]

Didio's been prepping Dick for death since he intended to kill him in Infinite Crisis..no worse fate than being stripped of your title, your character, your main Titans squeese (probably to begin one final romance with Babs), and then your very soul is sacrificed to Bruce's "mission". It's a better kind of "systematic breakdown" than what was supposedly going to happen (shot by Alexander Luthor), but it's still a cruddy mandate

[HaroldAllnut]

Am I the only one who thinks that this mysterious "dark master" and the supposed "devil" mentioned by Damian in Batman #666 is none other than Darkseid? Morrison himself has already gone on record saying that we see the true end of Batman in Final Crisis.

And i think that Dick dying is a very real possibility. Perhaps the cape and cowl are cursed until Damian makes that deal with the Devil?

Unforunately, I agree with you in that Dick's death is a very viable possibility.

[DonC]

F) Didio supposedly hates Dick Grayson.



Dan DiDio wanting to kill Dick Grayson came about at a time when Nightwing wasn't telling very good stories. He may really hate Dick Grayson, I don't know, but I do know he backed off on his plans to kill be because the character is so popular amongst both the fans and the professionals.

If Dick Grayson does die while being Batman, expect him back among the living fairly soon.

[Doc Goblin]

Yeah. I'd say Dick's time as Batman ending with his death is a pretty real possibility. There's no doubt that DC/Didio would do it. They almost did once. I don't believe Didio hates the character, but I can definitely buy that he doesn't believe the character is that important or is working well in the DCU. Nothing has happened since Infinite Crisis that I can see would change his mind much about Dick. So if Morrison said he wants to eventually kill of Dick... yeah, I bet Didio would okay it.

I don't know if I really expect it to happen though. I doubt Didio would be thrilled with the idea of later returning Dick to his Nightwing status quo. But it really comes down to whether Morrison wants Dick dead.

[The Shadow]

Killing Dick would be a real dick move on DCs part. People did not like Jason Todd and voted to kill him. His resurrection was pure crap.
I agree.

I was one of those fans that voted to kill him back in 1988 and HATED his return (a retcon punch? Are you kidding?).

Killing Dick would be just another nail in my DC reading coffin.

[Kiryu]

Well, Flash: Rebirth will be a good indicator of this. When Dan speaks of wanting kill Nightwing, he mentions "redundant character, kill 'em". But now we have Two Supermen and a Superboy. Three Legions, 4 Earth GLs, and Rebirth might end with 3 Flashes and a Kid Flash/Impulse plus maybe Max Mercury.

This is the main problem with temporary promotions, how do you keep the character special after you essentially demote him. I worry about it for Wally now, and Dick will have to deal with it soon.

Given that Grant doesn't seem to be involved with the RIP Fallout and maybe not even Batman at all after the next two issues. My fear is this whole shebang is going to be an editorially driven fustercluck of Countdown level proportions. Rumors of Judd Winnick having a role in the Bat-Verse Post-RIP, another attempt to ram Jason Todd down our throats(And I actually LIKE the Rogue Robin concept). I really hope whoever is on the Bat-Titles Post-RIP is A-List and doesn't let this just become Prodigal II: Another Tale of Dick Grayson Not Being Good Enough.

[hurk]

The "another Dick fails as Batman" angle is what worries me most. I'm a big Dick Grayson fan and, since we've already seen this in prodigal, wouldn't the best STORY be--regardless of how much you like Dick Grayson--him dying while carrying on the mantle?

His whole deal has been sacrificing himself for Bruce's mission. This would be the ultimate sacrifice, give Bruce a legit reason to return to his crusade (another tragedy) and, as Morrison promised during the RIP storyline, truly change the Bat mythos forever (or until another retcon punch).

It's just a damn shame Dick could be killed off while Jason Todd runs around carving up people.

[Redem]

Oh I found ironic that in recent year there was apprently an effort for DC to make batman less grim and when finaly some guy who is genuily more altruistic than Bruce Wayne might become the Bat he's the likely not to last long

Let's just hope he last longer than Jean-Paul Valley so he can snob him in the afterlife :biggrin:

[Kiryu]

The "another Dick fails as Batman" angle is what worries me most. I'm a big Dick Grayson fan and, since we've already seen this in prodigal, wouldn't the best STORY be--regardless of how much you like Dick Grayson--him dying while carrying on the mantle?

His whole deal has been sacrificing himself for Bruce's mission. This would be the ultimate sacrifice, give Bruce a legit reason to return to his crusade (another tragedy) and, as Morrison promised during the RIP storyline, truly change the Bat mythos forever (or until another retcon punch).

It's just a damn shame Dick could be killed off while Jason Todd runs around carving up people.

And Jason Todd has yet to have a great story written about him.

[PastePotPete]

Boo hoo.

I love Nightwing but I don't mind if they kill him as long as it's a well-told tale. I think giving him a tour of duty as Batman is a great way to honor the character before offing him. In the hands of the right writer (Morrison works for me) I think it would make for a great story.

The Nightwing book hasn't been good since Dixon. The Nightwing book is already being cancelled. Characters get killed and come back all the time. Why all the bitching and moaning? I seriously don't understand why it's so unacceptable for Nightwing to die. You act like Didio would be killing a real person.

[David Walton]

If they really wanted to be original, why not give Grayson a shot at being Batman for a couple of years? And a success, at that, albeit with a different approach than Bruce?

[GHalecki]

Having the original sidekick pick up the mask for an extended duration seems to be working for Captain America. I like how it is set up that everyone "knows" that Steve will be revived eventually as Cap, but it just doesn't have to happen real soon.
The same thing can be said of Dick as Batman. He can never really be THE Batman, but I think it is completely acceptable to have him as A Batman for the immediate future. Have Bruce retire and disappear for a year and focus solely on Dick. Then bring Bruce back and have him say "you are doing a good job, don't let me interrupt you." and have him in a major supporting role for a year or two, and THEN bring him all the way back if you want.

[drinkblatzbeer]

D) It's Bruce who's wearing the cape and cowl in Final Crisis which takes place after RIP ;)

has that been clearly stated?

i thought grant has said you'll see what happens to Bruce in final crisis, never that he was necissarily Batman in FC...

i'm gonna have to go back and see if nightwing has made any appearances in that series yet...don't think so...

[Vic Vega]

BEWARE, Batman 681 spoilers ahead:

So it seems as though Dick Grayson will be taking over the mantle—there’s been much foreshadowing in his own title, and finally in Batman 681 when he holds the cowl.

My question: is Dick Grayson a dead man? Consider:

A) In Batman 666, Damian says he can’t be as good a Batman as Bruce or even Dick Grayson. Presumably, Dick takes over the mantle.

B) In Batman 666 someone asks Commissioner Barbara Gordon why she hates Damian. She hesitates and says he was responsible for the death of “a good friend”. Is that Dick?

C) In Batman 666, a flashback of YOUNG Damian as Robin shows him shouting over the dead body of Batman—a Batman with a modified costume (the symbol has a longer tail, which can also be seen in the trophy room in Damian’s batcave). Is this Dick’s variation of the costume?

D) At the end of Batman 681, Dr. Hurt says “I curse the cape and cowl… the next time you wear it will be your last”. He curses the cape and cowl. Not Bruce. Was the phrasing done that way on purpose? If Dick is next to wear the cape and cowl, does he suffer the cursed fate assigned by Dr. Hurt?

E) Morrison has said all along the clues in his story are obvious. These seem pretty obvious.

F) Didio supposedly hates Dick Grayson.

Thoughts?

Dick isn't dying. Here's why...

1) I'd think "a good friend" is a pale discriptor of what Dick was/is to Barbara. She might very well be discribing Tim not Dick.

2)Assuming the prevailing wisdom is correct and Dr. Hurt IS The Devil, the literal curse would prevent Bruce from becoming Batman forcing Dick to take up the mantle. Said curse would ONLY apply to Bruce. The quote was "The next time YOU it will be YOUR last" not the next time anybody wears it.

3) I don't care HOW much Didio says he hates Nightwing, his book has been reliable seller and was selling well up until its cancellation. Its not like D.C. has that many reliable 50K sellers in their line.

[frostedone]

Boo hoo.

I love Nightwing but I don't mind if they kill him as long as it's a well-told tale. I think giving him a tour of duty as Batman is a great way to honor the character before offing him. In the hands of the right writer (Morrison works for me) I think it would make for a great story.

The Nightwing book hasn't been good since Dixon. The Nightwing book is already being cancelled. Characters get killed and come back all the time. Why all the bitching and moaning? I seriously don't understand why it's so unacceptable for Nightwing to die. You act like Didio would be killing a real person.

The whole thing is that yes comic book characters get resurrected all the time, but NOT in the Batman-family comics. Other than Ra's of course. Resurrection doesn't fit well/work with the Batman series. Granted we do have Lazarus pits, but that is Ra's thing.

Look at how horribly Jason Todd's resurrection went. Look at how stupid the thing that caused his resurrection was. Retcon Punch! It sounds like something Captain Falcon would say in Smash Bros.

[Kiryu]

The whole thing is that yes comic book characters get resurrected all the time, but NOT in the Batman-family comics. Other than Ra's of course. Resurrection doesn't fit well/work with the Batman series. Granted we do have Lazarus pits, but that is Ra's thing.

Look at how horribly Jason Todd's resurrection went. Look at how stupid the thing that caused his resurrection was. Retcon Punch! It sounds like something Captain Falcon would say in Smash Bros.

Batman's back was magically healed. The Lazarus Pits, as you have mentioned, already exist within Batman's world. And given how ruined a character Jason Todd is now I think Dick dying and that, that loss, being the thing that breaks Bruce and is something he cannot accept and he does for Dick what he never did for Babara or Jason and uses a pit to restore him, it would be a great story.

Jason's resurrection I don't think can really be counted against the concept in Batman. It was stupid on every level, it had nothing to do with Batman or anyone related to him, it just exploited a different plot thread. Had Jason returned in Hush, that store might have meant something, and his return might not have been the creative abortion it was.

[Mat001]

Uh, Batman #666 is not the future. It is a possible future. You do know those things exist. Haven't you paid attention to the Legion? Three different futures, each one different. Marvel has a dozen of them going at any given time. The X-Men, the Hulk, 2099 and the entire run of "The End" series.

Dick, Tim, Daimen, Jason and Tommy will all be fighting for the mantle. That doesn't mean that any of them will get it. Nor does it mean that Nightwing will die.

[Captain Jim]

has that been clearly stated?

i thought grant has said you'll see what happens to Bruce in final crisis, never that he was necissarily Batman in FC...


Yes, it has. Morrison said in an interview that the Batman you see in FC is Bruce Wayne.

[AJM]

Yes, it has. Morrison said in an interview that the Batman you see in FC is Bruce Wayne.

Didn't he say it was Bruce Wayne, but not as we know him? I mentioned this in another thread, but maybe in Bruce's absence Dick masquerades as him? Obviously his JLA chums would know it wasn't really him, but how about the rest of the world?

[zur en arrh]

Uh, Batman #666 is not the future. It is a possible future. You do know those things exist. Haven't you paid attention to the Legion? Three different futures, each one different. Marvel has a dozen of them going at any given time. The X-Men, the Hulk, 2099 and the entire run of "The End" series.

Dick, Tim, Daimen, Jason and Tommy will all be fighting for the mantle. That doesn't mean that any of them will get it. Nor does it mean that Nightwing will die.

Well, this is just a possible theory.

[Kiryu]

Didn't he say it was Bruce Wayne, but not as we know him? I mentioned this in another thread, but maybe in Bruce's absence Dick masquerades as him? Obviously his JLA chums would know it wasn't really him, but how about the rest of the world?

Nightwing was also in Final Crisis. The man under the Mantle is without a doubt, Bruce Wayne. And Final Crisis is "The Final Fate of the Dark Knight." I really don't see any room to fudge it in that statement.

We'll learn the "Not as you know him" part in the upcoming "Last Rites"

[DavidAllred]

I think if Sinestro Corps taught us anything at all it's that you can make a great story using multi-characters who've each had their own place in the DCU along the way without killing any of them. You can tell the story, the good guys can "win," it will sell like hot cakes, and fans are going to be happy.

You don't have to make an icon go bye-bye or go crazy, you don't have to kill off redundant characters, and you don't have to alienate the fanbase of any of the characters. You just have to tell a compelling story. Sinestro Corps did just that, in my opinion.

ETA: Oh yeah, you can also get in and out without dangling plot lines and a dozen un-answered questions, and you can do it in a handful of issues. Set yourself up for the next big event, and by looking at the sales numbers, you're going to keep readers around in anticipation.

[theNighteye]

i agree, no one wants to see the good guy die. that's why most people read comics, cuz good almost always wins over bad and cuz its not like reality. Now with DC killing off heroes left and right i don't know how well they are gonna do in the future and they certainly better pull something miraculous out of their magic hat to make the fans happy again. We kinda wanna wake up from this nightmare.

[Mat001]

Didn't he say it was Bruce Wayne, but not as we know him? I mentioned this in another thread, but maybe in Bruce's absence Dick masquerades as him? Obviously his JLA chums would know it wasn't really him, but how about the rest of the world?

In issues one and two, it's Bruce because he calls Superman by his real name. None of his sons would do that. They'd call him Superman. In "Requiem", we see Bruce without his mask on twice. First in the Batcave when he is recording J'onn's memories in the computer and then when he's alone with Clark, Dinah, Gypsy and Hal. He puts a cookie on J'onn's casket and tells him to sleep well, before putting the mask on and walking out of the tomb. In issue three, Dick and Tim are standing next to each other when the heroes gather to listen to Alan Scott speak. They are both in their costumes. It's not Jason because he wouldn't be there. It's not Jean Paul because Clark would recognize him. It's not Dick nor Tim. And most definately not Daimen. The Joker is also missing in the Society meetings during issues one through three. He didn't like being not invited the last time and Lex would've informed Libra of that.

[AJM]

In issues one and two, it's Bruce because he calls Superman by his real name. None of his sons would do that. They'd call him Superman. In "Requiem", we see Bruce without his mask on twice. First in the Batcave when he is recording J'onn's memories in the computer and then when he's alone with Clark, Dinah, Gypsy and Hal. He puts a cookie on J'onn's casket and tells him to sleep well, before putting the mask on and walking out of the tomb. In issue three, Dick and Tim are standing next to each other when the heroes gather to listen to Alan Scott speak. They are both in their costumes. It's not Jason because he wouldn't be there. It's not Jean Paul because Clark would recognize him. It's not Dick nor Tim. And most definately not Daimen. The Joker is also missing in the Society meetings during issues one through three. He didn't like being not invited the last time and Lex would've informed Libra of that.

Oh well. Haven't really been paying much attention to Final Crisis - i've read the first few issues but none of the spin-offs. The only reason i looked at it in the first place was because i'd heard it might cross over with Batman.

Still seems weird though. Maybe they've just made a terrible continuity mistake? Or do they really bring Bruce back after he's been missing for 6 months and then kill him off? That seems a bit pointless.

Only time will tell...

[Mat001]

No, it's pre-planned. Shortly after "R.I.P.", "Final Crisis" begins. Bruce resurfaces to help out with the death of Orion. Bruce is captured by Kraken and taken to Command D, where he's held for over a month. "Last Rites" by Morrison will show us what happened to Bruce from his point of view, as well as recount various events of his life. When we catch up to Bruce in #6, we'll see what the damage is, if any. When that's done, that is when Bruce walks away from being Batman. We then go into "Last Days Of Gotham" and "Whatever Happened To The Caped Crusader", which then takes us to "Battle For The Cowl".

[Bamf25]

Of course Killing Dick after he becomes Batman could lead to a very interesting story about Bruce retaking the role. Has see his best fighter, his longest ally, his son, and the only other person who could do the job die. He then realizes he (Bruce) is and is the only person that can be Batman. He needs to be Batman, but at the same time now has Dick's blood on his hands.

It would not make me happy, but it is an interesting story idea.

[Kuma]

Didn't Morrison says it's Bruce, but not as we know him? Maybe Dick is secretly masquerading as Bruce / Batman? Or maybe Morrison made a mistake and meant it was Batman but not as we know him?

I don't know. I just don't see how we can they can bring him back and then have the Battle For The Cowl.

And i think that Dick dying is a very real possibility. Perhaps the cape and cowl are cursed until Damian makes that deal with the Devil?

Anyone think of the possibility that its Tommy under the cowl at the time of FC? He should still look like Bruce at that point

[Ravenshadow]

Anyone think of the possibility that its Tommy under the cowl at the time of FC? He should still look like Bruce at that point

I don't think the rest of the Bat Squad would let a killer like Hush wear the cape and cowl.

Tim is too short and too lightly built.
Sure, he could buff up (working out REALLY hard, or by shooting up Venom-lite maybe :tongue: ) but then he could never go back - no more Robin costumes for him, when Bruce Wayne will eventually reclaim the Mantle of the Bat.

My guess is Dick or Jason (with Dick constantly holding him in check: a more hard-boiled kind of hero maybe), with Tim (maybe Damien) as Robin.

[PastePotPete]

No, it's pre-planned. Shortly after "R.I.P.", "Final Crisis" begins. Bruce resurfaces to help out with the death of Orion. Bruce is captured by Kraken and taken to Command D, where he's held for over a month. "Last Rites" by Morrison will show us what happened to Bruce from his point of view, as well as recount various events of his life. When we catch up to Bruce in #6, we'll see what the damage is, if any. When that's done, that is when Bruce walks away from being Batman. We then go into "Last Days Of Gotham" and "Whatever Happened To The Caped Crusader", which then takes us to "Battle For The Cowl".

I wouldn't bet on "Last Rites" tying all of these threads together. I think you guys are probably putting way more thought into this than Morrison is.

Morrison has probably just decided that RIP and Final Crisis are unconnected stories, so when someone goes "Wait, is that Batman in FC? He died in RIP!" Morrison just says "Uh, yeah. That's Bruce Wayne. Final Crisis shows his final fate." In reality, they don't tie together at all. They're just two stories that happen to feature Batman without any chronological order of events in mind. Morrison and editorial at DC are fine with this.

So am I, honestly. I don't get is why it all has to connect for people to be satisfied.

[philly]

I have a feeling that Tim will be killed by Damien under Night wings watch as Batman.

[AJM]

No, it's pre-planned. Shortly after "R.I.P.", "Final Crisis" begins. Bruce resurfaces to help out with the death of Orion. Bruce is captured by Kraken and taken to Command D, where he's held for over a month. "Last Rites" by Morrison will show us what happened to Bruce from his point of view, as well as recount various events of his life. When we catch up to Bruce in #6, we'll see what the damage is, if any. When that's done, that is when Bruce walks away from being Batman. We then go into "Last Days Of Gotham" and "Whatever Happened To The Caped Crusader", which then takes us to "Battle For The Cowl".

Then what the !@£$ was the point of having him disappear for 6 months in RIP? So he comes back and then disappears again for a month, and then retires or dies? I really enjoyed RIP, but the more i hear about it tying into Final Crisis, the less i care. It already seems like connecting it to FC was an afterthought and the whole thing sounds like a mess. I know it hasn't been released yet and i may be proven wrong, but the warning bells are starting to ring for me.

I'd rather both stories were completely separate, i don't see why the DC Universe has to be uniform throughout, and i don't understand why anyone gives a toss about continuity. If anything, it only serves to stifle creativity and DC should be more concerned with producing quality product than altering every single character in some way for the sake of one story. I'd prefer it if some of the characters never crossed over at all. Why can't we have a separate Batman comic that lies outwith DC continuity, set in a Gotham City that's never heard of the Justice League or any of the other super-heroes? It can be pretty cool to do a crossover now and again (i loved that Alan Moore story with Swamp Thing and Superman), but i don't see why every character and plot-line has to permeate through every other character and plot-line.

The fact is that Marvel are far more successful at this than DC ever was, but then most of their characters were invented by the same guy, so it wasn't difficult to put them in the same comic. But DC's characters are more disparate and don't really belong together if you ask me.

Oh well.

[Ravenshadow]

I have a feeling that Tim will be killed by Damien under Night wings watch as Batman.

Quite unlikely.
If Tim dies, so we get stuck with no Robin at all (unless you think that Damien would be the next in line after killing him... :evilsmile: )

[philly]

Quite unlikely.
If Tim dies, so we get stuck with no Robin at all (unless you think that Damien would be the next in line after killing him... :evilsmile: )

They also could have brought back the Spoiler to take Robin's place again if they are indeed going to kill him. Ether way, i have a feeling that a major death ( Tim or Dick) will happen in order for Bruce to come back as Batman.

[NakedOni]

I really like Nightwing and all, but I can deal with his death as long as Bruce comes back as Batman soon and is all pissed and badass.

I don't want Nightwing to be Batman. I don't want anyone but Bruce to be Batman and I've been having anxiety attacks about it (but I just say to myself, "calm down, calm down...he'll be back. I know he will").

Also, Jason Todd is stupid. I don't like Damien (he would make a very lame Robin).

I'll be fine as long as Bruce is back to being Batman soon and Tim is still Robin.

P.S. everyone's got really interesting theories about the Bat-future...I haven't been thinking that much into it.

[sHayden]

Though Morrison claims he will write Batman indefinitely, whoever takes the reigns after him will find a way to undo all his work as is usual. And though DiDio hates Grayson, DiDio won't be around forever either.

[Kuma]

I don't think the rest of the Bat Squad would let a killer like Hush wear the cape and cowl.

They dont have to, Hush could just show up dressed as bats to the JLA headquaters during all the confusion over Orion and people will just take him at face value. I dont know, it just seems that it would be kind of pointless for Heart of Hush to have even been tied into RIP if something wasnt going to come out of him having the surgery to look like Bruce

[Mat001]

Anyone think of the possibility that its Tommy under the cowl at the time of FC? He should still look like Bruce at that point

Except it's not Tommy Elliot. It's Bruce Wayne. Tommy doesn't go for the cowl until "Battle For The Cowl".

I wouldn't bet on "Last Rites" tying all of these threads together. I think you guys are probably putting way more thought into this than Morrison is.

Morrison has probably just decided that RIP and Final Crisis are unconnected stories, so when someone goes "Wait, is that Batman in FC? He died in RIP!" Morrison just says "Uh, yeah. That's Bruce Wayne. Final Crisis shows his final fate." In reality, they don't tie together at all. They're just two stories that happen to feature Batman without any chronological order of events in mind. Morrison and editorial at DC are fine with this.

So am I, honestly. I don't get is why it all has to connect for people to be satisfied.

No, this has been Morrison's plan since he broke down the story for "Final Crisis" and "R.I.P." over a year ago. Bruce would undergo the events of "R.I.P." and then we'd find out what happened to Bruce in "Last Rites" which ties in to "Final Crisis". He's been saying this for over a year. You might not believe it, but that's what he and Didio have been saying.


Then what the !@£$ was the point of having him disappear for 6 months in RIP? So he comes back and then disappears again for a month, and then retires or dies? I really enjoyed RIP, but the more i hear about it tying into Final Crisis, the less i care. It already seems like connecting it to FC was an afterthought and the whole thing sounds like a mess. I know it hasn't been released yet and i may be proven wrong, but the warning bells are starting to ring for me.

No, Bruce goes back into action a few days after "R.I.P." ended. Then "Final Crisis" happens and he's done as Batman. We don't know if that's Bruce and Tim in Batman #676 or if it was Dick and Daimen or Tim and Daimen or Hush and Daimen. Again it goes "R.I.P.", "Final Crisis", "Last Rites", "The Last Days Of Gotham", "Whatever Happened To The Caped Crusader" and "Battle For The Cowl". All of which can cover a six month period.

I'd rather both stories were completely separate, i don't see why the DC Universe has to be uniform throughout, and i don't understand why anyone gives a toss about continuity. If anything, it only serves to stifle creativity and DC should be more concerned with producing quality product than altering every single character in some way for the sake of one story. I'd prefer it if some of the characters never crossed over at all. Why can't we have a separate Batman comic that lies outwith DC continuity, set in a Gotham City that's never heard of the Justice League or any of the other super-heroes? It can be pretty cool to do a crossover now and again (i loved that Alan Moore story with Swamp Thing and Superman), but i don't see why every character and plot-line has to permeate through every other character and plot-line.

Because in 1960, Marvel created a single continuity where events happened at roughly the same time. Where all the characters existed on the same Earth and often within the same city and state. In 1980, DC and the fanbase wanted the same thing and that's what we got with "Crisis On Infinite Earths" in 85-86.

The fact is that Marvel are far more successful at this than DC ever was, but then most of their characters were invented by the same guy, so it wasn't difficult to put them in the same comic. But DC's characters are more disparate and don't really belong together if you ask me.

No one asked you. Marvel's success wasn't because Lee wrote or edited most of the stories in the 60's. Marvel's success came from the idea of continuing on from where they had left off, only making a distinction that it was now a new beginning. DC chose to ignore it at first and then created the Multiverse. DC got better at it in the 70's, once the changing of the guard in the editorial department had been settled. This lead to a more cohesive universe.


They dont have to, Hush could just show up dressed as bats to the JLA headquaters during all the confusion over Orion and people will just take him at face value. I dont know, it just seems that it would be kind of pointless for Heart of Hush to have even been tied into RIP if something wasnt going to come out of him having the surgery to look like Bruce.


So Hush knows that Superman is Clark Kent, who cannot see through this disguise. It's Bruce Wayne. Morrison and Didio have told us it is Bruce. "Heart Of Hush" leads into "Battle For The Cowl". Tommy goes after the mantle after "Final Crisis" has ended.

People, you're making this harder than it needs to be.

[The Scarlet Sapien]

I wouldn't think so. But I wouldn't have thought they'd exhume Barry and leave Wally in limbo or worse, either. Someone needs to check to see what exactly is In those bongs over at Dc. They couldn't possibly kill Dick and make it permanent. If they don't like Dick or know what to do with him. Fine.Cancel the title... have him retire for a while. But kill him? No. Stupid. Bad.

[Kuma]

You cant check the bongs over there, Morrison smoked the rest of what was left from Alan Moore's days

[HopeLantern]

No, Bruce goes back into action a few days after "R.I.P." ended. Then "Final Crisis" happens and he's done as Batman. We don't know if that's Bruce and Tim in Batman #676 or if it was Dick and Daimen or Tim and Daimen or Hush and Daimen. Again it goes "R.I.P.", "Final Crisis", "Last Rites", "The Last Days Of Gotham", "Whatever Happened To The Caped Crusader" and "Battle For The Cowl". All of which can cover a six month period.


Okay... that makes things a lot easier to understand!

[Jim Thompson]

Y'know, I really don't think so. While I don't think DC has the fortitude to stick with the new Batman (which is unfortunate, as I think Batman is a perfect character to make a generational hero), I also don't think they'll end up killing him.

[carabas]

Y'know, I really don't think so. While I don't think DC has the fortitude to stick with the new Batman (which is unfortunate, as I think Batman is a perfect character to make a generational hero), I also don't think they'll end up killing him. I think DC does. DC's masters, Time Warner, on the other hand...

[The Scarlet Sapien]

You cant check the bongs over there, Morrison smoked the rest of what was left from Alan Moore's days Perhaps they need to re-stock. Maybe its withdrawl ( or however you spell it.)

[chapattack]

Te great thing about Dick/Nightwing is that he is one of the few 2nd string characters that hasn't been killed. There aren't many characters that have been around that long and aren't 3rd tier (or lower) characters (Alfred, Jarvis, Ma Hunkle etc.) that haven't been killed off for a cheap plot line. It's almost too easy to kill off Dick - just because he's been around so long and has so much emotional currency. It would be a shame to see him go, not because I have much love for the Nightwing comics, but because Dick being alive is a testament to the occasional sense of editors. Why kill a character for the sake of killing? It's not the 1940s anymore. Lets have some good stories told - that come out of the pulp traditions that gave birth to them - but aren't slaves to moribund cliffhangers and deaths of chracters to cover the fact that the writer just isn't that good.
Kill Dick if you've got to... but for feck's sake make it count. Make it worth it and not just a cheap way to push a few more issues... a short term fix for the real Final Crisis facing comics - the on-going sales decline... which hero will battle the true Dark God of growing apathy to the medium?
Don't shaft us on this one Dan D...

[joint venture]

Te great thing about Dick/Nightwing is that he is one of the few 2nd string characters that hasn't been killed. There aren't many characters that have been around that long and aren't 3rd tier (or lower) characters (Alfred, Jarvis, Ma Hunkle etc.) that haven't been killed off for a cheap plot line. It's almost too easy to kill off Dick - just because he's been around so long and has so much emotional currency. It would be a shame to see him go, not because I have much love for the Nightwing comics, but because Dick being alive is a testament to the occasional sense of editors. Why kill a character for the sake of killing? It's not the 1940s anymore. Lets have some good stories told - that come out of the pulp traditions that gave birth to them - but aren't slaves to moribund cliffhangers and deaths of chracters to cover the fact that the writer just isn't that good.
Kill Dick if you've got to... but for feck's sake make it count. Make it worth it and not just a cheap way to push a few more issues... a short term fix for the real Final Crisis facing comics - the on-going sales decline... which hero will battle the true Dark God of growing apathy to the medium?
Don't shaft us on this one Dan D...

Can't kill anyone inside the Batverse because most of them are plain humans fighting corruption in a dark city. Those who "do no resemble" humans are humanoid villains deformed according to their motivations and repercussions of the stories they have been in.

The only one that resurrects constantly, is Rha's.

And then we have freaks like Jason Todd or Dr. Tommy Elliot, the exceptions to the rule. But do you ask yourself why Batman does not kill rapists, assasins and the like? Because in the end he is just human, he is a target as well.

And Morrison knows that well.

[HopeLantern]

Speaking of which... exactly where is Nightwing during Final Crisis?

[Kuma]

Speaking of which... exactly where is Nightwing during Final Crisis?
good point, i dont remember seeing Robin at all either

[Mat001]

Issue three of the main series. During the Article X draft.

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk27/Darth_Ermac/DC/DC-2/DC-3/FinalCrisis-4.gif

Tim is behind the Huntress and Donna Troy, with Dick right behind him.