CBR: Batman R.I.P.? (spoilers)

[CBR News]

First rumored in LYING IN THE GUTTERS just over one year ago, DC Comics'
much-hyped "Batman R.I.P." story came to a conclusion in "Batman" #681 by
writer Grant Morrison and artists Tony Daniel & Sandu Florea, on sale now.


Full article here (http://comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=18959).

Warning: article contains major spoilers.

Please respond only to the CBR article here. To comment on Batman #681, see this thread (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=247175)

[Clayton]

I don't know. I liked the story, but I can see that a lot of people are going to take issue with the lack of an explicit reveal. Generally speaking, comic fans like their clear answers and nothing in this story actually comes out in a direct fashion as Dr. Hurt being the "D". If we were to take direct implications, then Dr. Hurt, himself, says and continues to say that he is Thomas Wayne. If Bruce doesn't like this answer, then there is only one option. That option is never directly stated. At least, in the manner similar to that Hurt says that he is Thomas. Hurt, a madman. I think this is the best answer we have at the moment.

[I am MODOK]

I agree, I never got the impression that Dr. Hurt was the devil. Never even crossed my mind, in fact.

I liked the story as an adventure for Bats, but I didn't really think that this stuck out as quite the event that R.I.P. was made out to be.

I posted more on my blog:
http://comicperday.blogspot.com/

[RonFire]

I liked the story, too. By far the most interesting aspect for me was the flashback sequence with the poison and the way it got into Bruce's head. "You blinked. I switched cups. Force of habit." Gold.

Hurt's identity...don't really care. I'm not sure it was the Devil himself though. I would expect him to be....redder....or something. I think that bit about the fear in the devil's eyes was just a little old fashioned metaphor. Hurt is the "devil" because he's the greatest evil.


Put simply, I guess what I'm saying is that Batman is god. With little pointy bat ears.

[DanCMH]

Seriously? They actually went with the "bodies over the cliff" ending? Seriously?

That's an episode of "Hart to Hart" Not the goddamn Batman. I couldnt be happier that I stopped buying this two issues in... Now I just have to start dumbing myself down to believe all of Bruce's proteges will start fist fighting each other over Gotham to see who gets the cape instead of just talking it out like the rational adults they've been raised to be.

Dont even get me started on that Devil business...

[Pupasweet]

I am sad to say I didn't enjoy this story one bit. I have to say that this has to be the weakest performance Grant Morrison has turned in in sometime. A rambling narrative that makes the "plot" nigh incomprehensible coupled with art that is subpar as a storytelling tool (apologies Mr. Daniel) adds to this being a terribly overrated event. As for the identity of the villain, by the end it was to the point of not caring. Character motivations were non existent - see Jezebel Jet. However, the supposition that the villain was the devil? The use of symbolism and writing at many different levels can be a wonderful thing that adds a lot to a story but not at the cost of having a cohesive, at least somewhat linear narrative.

[rassmguy]

The Devil? Seriously? That's one of the most overused cliches, and its use here should have been squashed the moment it was suggested. The Devil has already appeared in the DC universe many, many times over the years. Enough with the freakin' devil already.

[pparker]

Only in a year where the dark knight is pretty much the biggest movie ever,
could dc go so wrong in mirroring the comic books success and quality.
This series would be called identity crisis if it wasn't already taken.

When Morrisson took over the title, it started off nice and fresh.
Iconic images and nice homages to son of the demon.
(which grant said he had never read. RIGHT......)

But things careened all over the place like a drunk ambulance driver screaming at people to get out of the way.

I think Morrisson is the one with a split personality, not bruce wayne.
Because this cannot be the same guy who wrote all-star superman.

I've been a fan of Grant's since i first read "gothic" in legends of the dark knight
years ago.
Do yourself a favour and pick up the trade of that for a much better take on batman.

[JillPantozzi]

Yeah the Devil didn't really come to mind for me either. I'm going to have to reread the whole arc but as of right now I'm fairly disappointed. Like one poster said, there wasn't enough explicit reveal.

[vickvega]

I thought it was pretty good. I didnt like the ambulance scene though, it was drawn badly and made no sense.

[Dr Manolis Dooplove]

was the point of that article simply to post spoilers about the issue? and strongly aubjective-opinionated attitudes towards the artist as well, and a not-sure-if-accurate account of the reveals in the issue. Are you 100% certain thats who Hurt is revealed to be?

[TimothyCallahan]

The Joker does call Hurt "the devil" and so does Batman. That's explicit. Now, they both may be wrong, but that's what they say. And, Hurt himself says, "ready to deal?" in a Faustian Bargain kind of way.

But you're right in the ambiguous nature of the reveal. It "seems" that he's supposed to be the devil, but does he turn into a red guy with horns and a pitchfork? No.

If you say the devil notion never even crossed your mind, I'm disappointed. Because it means you're not reading my columns!

P.S. I just posted my CBR review of issue #681, so you can see what I thought of the "shocking conclusion" (spoiler-free, although for you guys, it's too late for that, isn't it?)

[Kiryu]

The Joker does call Hurt "the devil" and so does Batman. That's explicit. Now, they both may be wrong, but that's what they say. And, Hurt himself says, "ready to deal?" in a Faustian Bargain kind of way.

But you're right in the ambiguous nature of the reveal. It "seems" that he's supposed to be the devil, but does he turn into a red guy with horns and a pitchfork? No.

If you say the devil notion never even crossed your mind, I'm disappointed. Because it means you're not reading my columns!

P.S. I just posted my CBR review of issue #681, so you can see what I thought of the "shocking conclusion" (spoiler-free, although for you guys, it's too late for that, isn't it?)

Tim! Get over in the 681 Spoiler thread! I'm talking about how right you were. Are you planning on doing a breakdown for this as well?

[Ronin II]

Well, I liked the Batman R.I.P. story, but I'm very dissapointed with the lack of a clear reveal. I kept turning pages with goosebumps thinking how the next one will reveal it, and nothing. :/

And, I'm not so convinced it was the Devil, if nothing I would say it was Bruce's Dad... A thought just occured to me, what is the most shocking reveal in Batman's 70 year history then? :/

[Clayton]

Sure, Batman calls him the Devil, but he also called him Pierce and was put wrong about that thought right away by Hurt, who again offered nothing as clear as "I'm Thomas."

[Kiryu]

Sure, Batman calls him the Devil, but he also called him Pierce and was put wrong about that thought right away by Hurt, who again offered nothing as clear as "I'm Thomas."

"If not Dad, then have you dared to consider the only alternative?"

Hurt challenges and threatens Batman to even consider his identity.

[bjtrdff]

I really don't see how someone can interpret it as the devil, especially given the vantage point of the last page...I am really surprised CBR put that article up.

[TotalWorldDomination]

Um... the Devil? Where did it reveal that? At all? Period? I'm going to wait for Morrison's comments on this.

Overall I liked the issue (dispite this devil nonsense). I still have no idea as to who Dr. Hurt realy is (I was betting Philip Wayne, but hey) but still, I liked it.

[Zuzu]

I was betting Philip Wayne

I lost $20 today since I bet my sister Dr.Hurt was Philip Wayne!

[Vee]

I liked the story, too. By far the most interesting aspect for me was the flashback sequence with the poison and the way it got into Bruce's head. "You blinked. I switched cups. Force of habit." Gold.

Hurt's identity...don't really care. I'm not sure it was the Devil himself though. I would expect him to be....redder....or something. I think that bit about the fear in the devil's eyes was just a little old fashioned metaphor. Hurt is the "devil" because he's the greatest evil.


Put simply, I guess what I'm saying is that Batman is god. With little pointy bat ears.

The way I see it, the fact that it is never revealed who Dr. Hurt really is, makes a stronger case that it actually is the Devil rather than really Dr. Hurt or anyone else.

The way he keeps saying that he's Thomas Wayne and doesn't refute when Batman says otherwise and the way he say's that he skinned and wore Mangrove Pierce.

"I am the hole in things" "The enemy" "There since the beginning"

The way he tries to "deal" with Bruce into becoming a servant of the Black Glove to "willingly dedicate his lfe to the corruption of virtue", when he supposly wanted to destroy Batman.

"Did I open myself to some pure source of evil?"

"Did i finally reach the limits of reason?"

"And find the Devil waiting?"

Add in the interaction Dr. Hurt had with the Joker and you have to admit that even if turns out that Dr. Hurt is just a regular person, the comic does give a pretty good case that it was the actual Devil who was behind this whole thing.

[frostedone]

I like Dini's Detective MUCH more then Morrison's Batman series. This was a HUGE Anticlimactic letdown, Dini's was a massive success.

First off we get NO CLOSURE on ANYTHING!

We get to know that yeah, Bruce is prepared for everything. We knew that already.

The big "shocker" about Dr. Hurt was lame too. Most of the fans guessed it 3 months ago. Anticlimatic. This final chapter sucked. THIS is supposed to be worse then death for Batman? No. He seems relatively psychologically FINE. We know from Final Crisis that he is alive and still wearing the cowl. This seemed like it shouldn't hurt Batman's mind much.

The Black Glove members are going to be dead, so them knowing Batman and families identities is a non factor. The Joker already knew it, so did Gordon.

Dr. Arkham knows Nightwing, but he won't say anything, if he wants to live. The Joker I am sure wouldn't want him telling every other criminal in Gotham that secret.

Batman going through all of the Black Glove trouble, knowing Jezebel was part of it, while knowing what was going on, and endangering his friends was incredibly stupid on his part.

I hope that this story gets retconned. Seriously Thomas Wayne being alive and being this rich, mustache twirling devil/villain? Thats lame. Him arranging to kill his wife and son was cheap too. Why slap the face of every other Batman story/cartoon/movie/comic ever made?

Also if Dr. Hurt is supposed to be the devil, he is clearly incompetent. The Joker basically is shown to be a greater force then the "ultimate evil".

I personally do NOT think Dr. Hurt is the devil though. Not even Thomas Wayne. He is just some rich crazy guy.

[DavidWright]

Spoiler Alert Spoiler Alert! (though why you'd be reading this thread now before you read the issues is beyond me)
Tim, with all due respect, I know you're promoting your prior article, but there's no clear reveal here about the Devil or anyone else...welcome to the mystery waiting for a longer time.

But I'm wondering why people aren't picking up on the really cool parts of this issue, Crazy Man-Bats attacking Jezebel Jet's, well, jet. International Batmen, Joker randomly killing one guy and saying the truest thing of the series...they have no idea who they're dealing with, either him or Batman, the poison switch gag, the 6 month flash forward, which may be putting a bookend on the next 6 months of Batman stories, the reveal of where Zur-en-arr comes from with the ominous figure in the back...a character who is clearly there "in the beginning" of the Batman. That's a lot of comic.

Look I see the incomplete flaws, the ending is a little, well, cliche, Morrison throws off dangling plot lines that DC and Marvel could take just one and turn it into a six issue series, and I think he's done a much better job in other series of having a through-line to follow while throwing off ideas. But i appreciate as a reader sometimes that he knows we can read closer, fill in some of the gaps, and enjoy the incompleteness either because to finish it would be cliche, or because sometimes ambiguity is more interesting because it's real. I like films that do that too, but then that's me.

I don't think the story is finished in Morrison's mind or on the paper. Then again, Rich Johnston's report of editorial rewrites could have changed this the way it may be in Final Crisis.

[Red_Knight]

Personally, I think the way the reveal was done (or not) was pretty darn clever. There's a possibility for everyone! :biggrin:

There have been a lot of references and allusions to the devil over the course of Morrison's run, so I personally believe that's who Morrison intends Hurt to be. All the clues fit.

However, if you don't like the supernatural reveal, you can easily ignore these implications and assume that Hurt is really Thomas Wayne, and that both Bruce and Alfred are in denial. I mean, Mangrove Pierce? Really? That certainly came out nowhere... One could argue that Bruce is just clutching at straws here.

If you don't like that idea, either, you can choose to believe Bruce and safely assume that Hurt is indeed a very disturbed Pierce, who for whatever reason seems to believe he is Thomas Wayne. Stranger things have happened.

I have never seen a reveal like this before, and I am quite intrigued... I will post more once I get my hands on my copy of the issue, but so far, it seems far better than the initial spoilers suggested.

[dreyga2000]

Heh... this reminds me of All Star Superman where he was suppose to die but instead ends up conquering death... and dissappering in ambigous fashion.

[Zuzu]

Also if Dr. Hurt is supposed to be the devil, he is clearly incompetent. The Joker basically is shown to be a greater force then the "ultimate evil".

But if anyone could PWN the devil I would think it would be the Joker.

[Kiryu]

But if anyone could PWN the devil I would think it would be the Joker.

It just shows that Joker is the wildcard. Which can completely change the game. It also shows Joker is chaotic, not evil. He serves no man, what he does he does in the name of nothing but his own glee.

The Devil is Double Deuce. The Joker trumps Double Deuce.

What did I say, its the wild card that wins the hand.

It's all there.

[zur en arrh]

Also if Dr. Hurt is supposed to be the devil, he is clearly incompetent. The Joker basically is shown to be a greater force then the "ultimate evil".


"devil is double is deuce, my dear doctor

and joker trumps deuce."


Damn, Kiryu beat me to it.

[TotalWorldDomination]

I lost $20 today since I bet my sister Dr.Hurt was Philip Wayne!

See, I was utterly convinced that Hurt was Philip. I made no dollar amount bet, but I was howling it from the rooftops to everyone who was following the storyline. It would have fit Morrison's wacky love of the classic batman stories and weird bits of continuity, the hints about Thomas Wayne, the necessity that the black glove be super-rich and the innuendo that the character was deeply tied to batman mythos.

It may not be perfect but hey, it's better then Hurt being Satan :biggrin:

[CATR's Chris]

The Devil things baffles me as well, but other than that, I didn't like how this storyline wrapped its "loose ends". It was so spoiled before it ended that, without that surprise, there was so little left. I didn't read Morrison's entire run, but I assumed it would make sense if I only got the R.I.P. storyline.

All in all, I think it was too hyped but it delivered just so little. Quite disappointing for me, actually.

[Lew Moxon]

The Devil? Seriously? That's one of the most overused cliches, and its use here should have been squashed the moment it was suggested. The Devil has already appeared in the DC universe many, many times over the years. Enough with the freakin' devil already.

yeah, this is why I dislike the ending, I like the idea of RIP generally, I've enjoyed most of the arc, but the devil is simply too supernatural a villain, I prefer Bruce to face a human foe. In other words, I liked RIP a hell of a lot better when I thought Bruce was simply insane and fighting his old killer bat self.


This was not the shocking reveal I expected.

Batman versus Satan is certainly strange

But not THE BIGGEST REVEAL IN 70 YEARS.

[dreyga2000]

the devil is simply too supernatural a villain

Hmm....

A couple issues ago Bats battled a body snacthing ghost, was possessed by a God, adorned mystical armor, fought a 700 year old super kung-fu master, and bathed in the Fountain of Youth, was prositioned by soceress...

Where exactly is the line drawn for too supernatural?:confused:

[Lew Moxon]

If you're asking me what my taste is, than it depends on my mood. I really love Year One.

I think the idea that a man dresses up, and that somehow terrifies criminals, is more or less enough.

I don't like really supernatural elements in the stories. Batman works best as an adapted pulp style hero.

Living in a world not vastly different than our own.

But the simple fact is, the Satan revelation did not live up to the hype.

And that's the main problem with the ending of Batman RIP.

The ending is supposed to be both shocking, and obvious in retrospect.

Bruce versus Satan, obvious, and I'll grant you its interesting

But, it simply isn't the most shocking event in the entirety of Bruce's career.

(Arguably, the death of Jason Todd still holds that honor.)

[Bullcityjl]

Even after reading the end of RIP, I still don't completely get it. Maybe I should re-read the whole thing. You could tell me the villain was a Skrull and I'd believe you until I remembered who owned the trademark.

All that being said, it still wasn't a bad story.

However, here's my issue with the devil (at least in the context of this comic, not on broad theological terms): DC Comics has used the devil a lot. In Reign in Hell they've got two forces involved duking it out for control of hell, and neither one of them happened to be led by anyone named Lucifer. What I'm getting at is the whole notion that the devil would be a shocking reveal is just off base. It really isn't. When I read this on the thread, my first thought was "which one?" given the events in Reign in Hell. Maybe it's just me, but the notion of someone using the devil would be a lot less cheapened if the guy currently ruling hell in the DCU hadn't already gotten schooled in the last couple of years by the Elongated Man.

What would really be shocking is if it were the devil (or some variation on the theme), and at the end of the story he could have offered Bruce Wayne his parents back, in exchange for wiping out the Batman persona. Oh wait, someone's already done something like that.

[Kiryu]

Even after reading the end of RIP, I still don't completely get it. Maybe I should re-read the whole thing. You could tell me the villain was a Skrull and I'd believe you until I remembered who owned the trademark.

All that being said, it still wasn't a bad story.

However, here's my issue with the devil (at least in the context of this comic, not on broad theological terms): DC Comics has used the devil a lot. In Reign in Hell they've got two forces involved duking it out for control of hell, and neither one of them happened to be led by anyone named Lucifer. What I'm getting at is the whole notion that the devil would be a shocking reveal is just off base. It really isn't. When I read this on the thread, my first thought was "which one?" given the events in Reign in Hell. Maybe it's just me, but the notion of someone using the devil would be a lot less cheapened if the guy currently ruling hell in the DCU hadn't already gotten schooled in the last couple of years by the Elongated Man.

What would really be shocking is if it were the devil (or some variation on the theme), and at the end of the story he could have offered Bruce Wayne his parents back, in exchange for wiping out the Batman persona. Oh wait, someone's already done something like that.

Can Morrison really be faulted by what is happening on other books? I agree with you, the same thing happened in Final Crisis. The Day Evil Won came after the day evil got its ass kicked by Jimmy Olsen in giant lizard form. But I don't, or rather try not to, let that affect my enjoyment of Final Crisis.

Also, he offered Batman his parents memory, in exchange for his soul. The Waynes will be forever regarded as criminals, unless Batman devoted himself to the corruption of virtue. He didn't.

[Captain Jim]

Just a reminder that this thread is only for responses to the CBR news story.

[Bullcityjl]

I know the mod wants us to steer back on topic, so I won't hijack it other than to say that Kiryu, those are really good points. You're right.