Batman #681 - RIP conclusion (spoilers)

[Kiryu]

http://www.newsarama.com/php/multimedia/album.php?aid=24367

One day away now. I honestly cannot wait for this issue. Loving the preview so far. Morrison has been building towards the concept of the Zur-En-Arrh Batman for so long and seeing all the subtle bits since 655 come together has been such a great read.

Victory is in the preparation. And Batman thinks of everything.

[DarKye]

I didn't think I could get even more excited over this issue. You proved me wrong.

This looks great. (Although maybe you should fix that link.. It leads to the last page of the preview rather than the first)

[PatchMadripoor]

Have any of our members in Asia gotten this yet? It's tomorrow over there already.

[Lester C.]

Have any of our members in Asia gotten this yet? It's tomorrow over there already.

Don't forget about the Aussies who I think got this yesterday our time.

[PatchMadripoor]

G'day mates! Ya got any news on 681?

spoilers?

the next 24 hours will be murder for me.

[kalika]

Ooooh, I'm quivering with excitement! :biggrin:

The preview was awesome EXCEPT for the dark master bit at the end with the super cheesy/creepy evil red eyes :evilsmile: (please don't be satan, please please please don't be the devil!!!!)

can't wait until tomorrow!!!!

[Lew Moxon]

Ooooh, I'm quivering with excitement! :biggrin:

The preview was awesome EXCEPT for the dark master bit at the end with the super cheesy/creepy evil red eyes :evilsmile: (please don't be satan, please please please don't be the devil!!!!)

can't wait until tomorrow!!!!

Very interesting, I can't tie it in with the rest of RIP but interesting none the less. And I too would hate a Devil conclusion. I much prefer the "Bruce is crazy and is doing this to himself" version.

But, if Morrison does it well, and doesn't make the entire history of Batman one giant faustian bargain. I'll be happy

[Red_Knight]

Taking into account Bruce's comments regarding his Thogal experience, I think we can now conclude that one of two things is the case.

A) Bruce actually IS his own worst enemy (i.e., The Black Glove), and has repressed the memories of his dark side in the "cellar" of his mind that he mentions

OR

B) The Waynes really were a sick and twisted couple, and the "ultimate black cellar" contains the memories of what Bruce witnessed.

I prefer version A) and have done so for a while, but I think we can safely say that all other theories are out the window now.

[Thursaiz]

I'm sure this has been covered; but if Bruce killed his own parents? Now THAT would kill the Batman. Or, at least make him believe that he did.

[AJM]

My word, this is exciting! I love all the little references to black and what even just the first 5 pages seem to suggest. Batman in a straitjacket in a coffin but in his original suit? So is that now or in the past? Did he actually die in that 52 story after all? Has it all been a dream? Is the Devil about to reveal himself? So many questions - the perfect preview!

I live in Scotland and can't get this until Thursday morning - AAAAAARRRRRRHHHH! I shall have to avoid the internet until then, so to keep me busy i'm going to read Morrison's run from the beginning and stay offline.

[Red_Knight]

I'm sure this has been covered; but if Bruce killed his own parents? Now THAT would kill the Batman. Or, at least make him believe that he did.

Actually, I don't think that has been covered. I can't see it happening, though.

I mean, apart from the fact that Joe Chill in all incarnations of the character always confessed to the murders, I don't see how 5-8 year-old Bruce could possibly kill his parents. A motive could be dreamed up, maybe, but making it believable... that's nearly impossible, IMO. (Yes, I know Thomas Elliot did arrange his parents' murder at the same age... but that didn't go too well, either.)

[James Conniff]

Taking into account Bruce's comments regarding his Thogal experience, I think we can now conclude that one of two things is the case.

A) Bruce actually IS his own worst enemy (i.e., The Black Glove), and has repressed the memories of his dark side in the "cellar" of his mind that he mentions
That's been my theory since I reread all the issues before RIP started.

Bruce Wayne is the only person smart enough to take down Batman. It is the only answer big enough to warrant an event that is this big and is allowed to affect so many books.

Bruce Wayne has to be the Black Glove...the only question I have is how Bruce went about setting up the destruction of the Batman, without knowing he was doing it.

[Kiryu]

I don't think that Bruce is The Black Glove. Remember, it was Jezebel Jet who first brought that question to light within the comic. I believe that this fear of being his own enemy is something planted in his mind. Something spun out of the question always asked about Batman, does his presence attract the crazies in Gotham. Has Batman just made things worse instead of making them better? Bruce wrestles with this always and bears this potential guilt on his shoulders. But he can't stop, even if he IS the reason for Joker and Two-Face and all the crazies. The mission is too strong, too important. So this is an aspect he can never put behind him.

In the preview, he references "something I can't see or say". This is the trigger word, shown backwards in the next panel "Zur-En-Arrh". It's something that makes Bruce so great, he has is not sure what this presence in his mind is, but he realizes the danger of a mental attack and takes precautions against it. He talks about it being tattooed on his mind and hidden. This is Dr Hurt hiding the word deep in his mind.

I do think that there will be something in Bruce's past that he has repressed, something Dr Hurt and the Black Glove will bring to light. Something that will shake him to his very core. And I think Dr Hurt knew of this memory when he implanted the Zur-En-Arrh trigger into Batman's mind, he hid his codeword in a place not even Batman could go.

I'd like to ask Morrison about his timeline for the old issues. I'm thinking it makes sense for the Zur-En-Arrh hallucination to have taken place after Dr Hurt put the trigger word in his head. That the combination of Dr Milo's gas and Dr Hurt's psychological imprinting are what created the Zur-En-Arrh hallucination.

Still so much to answer. Charlie Caligula SAW Bat-Mite. There are pictures of the Bat-Radia in the Black Case book.

[Madrox84]

Looks fantastic!

I'm really looking forward to getting this issue. Roll on Thursday!

[Retro315]

This "dark, repressed" thing hidden in his mind, from his past has almost got to be his early days (the very first Batman stories) where he actually killed people.

Otherwise "Joe Chill in Hell" was a completely pointless exercise in crazy.

He's almost got to discover that he's killed people, which destroys his concept of Batman. I am glad that based on Dan Didio and other future DCU talk, this doesn't seem to be brought out by Batman finally flipping and killing Joker. It would've worked for the story, but killing Joker, even in "come-back comics", wouldn't be the best move for fans of that character. (There's been an extreme enough reaction based on his Clown at Midnight persona).

So does Bruce turn himself in to the Gordon and the police? Go underground with Talia and become the new Demon's Head (the villain turn)? Or just disappear entirely for a year or two?

[Kiryu]

This "dark, repressed" thing hidden in his mind, from his past has almost got to be his early days (the very first Batman stories) where he actually killed people.

Otherwise "Joe Chill in Hell" was a completely pointless exercise in crazy.

He's almost got to discover that he's killed people, which destroys his concept of Batman. I am glad that based on Dan Didio and other future DCU talk, this doesn't seem to be brought out by Batman finally flipping and killing Joker. It would've worked for the story, but killing Joker, even in "come-back comics", wouldn't be the best move for fans of that character. (There's been an extreme enough reaction based on his Clown at Midnight persona).

So does Bruce turn himself in to the Gordon and the police? Go underground with Talia and become the new Demon's Head (the villain turn)? Or just disappear entirely for a year or two?

Or just be really screwed up and killed in Final Crisis?

[Don't pee in the (Dead)pool]

This "dark, repressed" thing hidden in his mind, from his past has almost got to be his early days (the very first Batman stories) where he actually killed people.

Otherwise "Joe Chill in Hell" was a completely pointless exercise in crazy.

He's almost got to discover that he's killed people, which destroys his concept of Batman. I am glad that based on Dan Didio and other future DCU talk, this doesn't seem to be brought out by Batman finally flipping and killing Joker. It would've worked for the story, but killing Joker, even in "come-back comics", wouldn't be the best move for fans of that character. (There's been an extreme enough reaction based on his Clown at Midnight persona).

So does Bruce turn himself in to the Gordon and the police? Go underground with Talia and become the new Demon's Head (the villain turn)? Or just disappear entirely for a year or two?

I still think Bruce is going to be the Black Glove and he's going to end up in Arkham Asylum. "All roads lead to Arkham" is what Grant has stated all along, there's been the emphasis on Bruce having more than one personality and the biggest clue (in my opinion...) is the villain has been around since the beginning...
This is all speculation and conjecture, but I guess I'll find out tomorrow!:biggrin:

[davepaton]

Have any of our members in Asia gotten this yet? It's tomorrow over there already.

I can't speak for Asia but I know that the new comics don't go on sale until Thursday in the UK so I just assume it's the same for everyone else outwith the US. Means I have to fiddle my thumbs for another day :mad:

[davepaton]

I still think Bruce is going to be the Black Glove and he's going to end up in Arkham Asylum.

This theory is my favourite but how do you explain all the stuff about Alfred and Thomas and Martha being junkie swingers?

[Mat001]

This theory is my favourite but how do you explain all the stuff about Alfred and Thomas and Martha being junkie swingers?

Two answers.

1. They were and he knew it, which he surpressed and thus created an illusion of his parents being saints when they were sinners.

2. It was all an effort to destroy Bruce past the breaking point.

[zur en arrh]

I am nearly foaming at the mouth in anticipation for this issue, and the preview makes the wait even harder. So many theories and ideas have been thrown around, and tomorrow we finally (hopefully) get all the answers. It has been a fun ride.

[Don't pee in the (Dead)pool]

This theory is my favourite but how do you explain all the stuff about Alfred and Thomas and Martha being junkie swingers?

I think either the information is true and "Black Glove" Bruce is using it against "Batman" Bruce or it's completely falsified and "Black Glove" Bruce is using it against "Batman" Bruce...
Either way, "Black Glove" Bruce is fully in control...:biggrin:

[Don't pee in the (Dead)pool]

I am nearly foaming at the mouth in anticipation for this issue, and the preview makes the wait even harder. So many theories and ideas have been thrown around, and tomorrow we finally (hopefully) get all the answers. It has been a fun ride.

Hear, hear! Welcome to the boards, fella.:biggrin:

[Red_Knight]

This "dark, repressed" thing hidden in his mind, from his past has almost got to be his early days (the very first Batman stories) where he actually killed people.

Otherwise "Joe Chill in Hell" was a completely pointless exercise in crazy.

Good point. I proposed this very theory in the big RIP theories thread a few weeks ago. There's lots and lots of little clues pointing towards that idea.

You're right about Joe Chill, too. People thought it might be a false memory planted by Hurt to screw with Bruce, -- but if that was the plan, it certainly didn't work. Bruce never once mentions it, after all. At this point, revealing "Joe in Chill in Hell" to have been a false memory would be incredibly flat.

[Red_Knight]

Hey everyone,

I'm doing a "stay up all night and wait for the first reviews of #681 while writing on my stuff"-thing. Surprisingly, the first review -- if it really is legit -- has popped up already. It can be found under http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?threadID=2000172886&tstart=0 . The basic gist:



Bruce rigged the "bat radia" to transmit his location to the bat computer.


The COH show up to save Robin from Lunaire Pierrot and Buckethead. The surviving members of the COV either escape or are apprehended. Very little is shown on-panel. Damian crashes the batmobile into an ambulance the Joker is driving, sending him off a bridge.


The Black Glove is not revealed, apparently. Hurt claims to be Thomas Wayne to Bruce's face, while Bruce claims that Hurt is Pierce Mangrove. The story ends with Hurt's escape helicopter crashing, seemingly killing both him and Batman.


Talia has her ManBats kill Jezebel Jet in retaliation for what she did to Bruce.


The story concludes "6 months later" with Le Bossu torturing a cop for information on Batman and Robin. The cop claims they are considered dead.




Lots of peeps at the DCU boards seem to think it's legit. I myself did so, too, initially. I've since changed my mind, though, for 4 major reasons:

1) The OP never once mentions Commissioner Gordon, who, as of #680, is in WAYNE MANOR as Talia Al Ghul and “The Son Of Batman” casually discuss batmobiles in front of him. Are we supposed to believe there is no follow up on any of this? If that’s the case, why would Morrison involve Gordon at all? He could have easily been left out. From a storytelling POV, he has to have some role in the conclusion.

2) The flashback panel that Tony Daniel posted on his blog weeks ago – the one that showed Bruce reviving someone with smelling salts – is not mentioned at all. The OP claims that the evil monk is killed by the poison intended for Bruce. If he is DEAD, though, and, in fat, died right in front of Bruce, why would Bruce bother with the smelling salts?

3) If the majority of the COV are captured or escape, we have a major problem on our hands, since they ALL know Batman’s secret identity and have no reason at all to keep it quiet. I can’t see DC allowing a bunch of D-list characters running around with that kind of knowledge. It would be very sloppy. I’m confident we’ll see most, if not all of the COV, die.

4) Why in the world would Le Bossu be interested in Batman and Robin following the game at Arkham? Bossu isn’t a Batman villain. He has no personal stake in any of this. Besides, I find it very curious that the OP never once mentions what the Joker did to Bossu. It is not shown on panel in #680, so it would be news, especially if the character plays such a prominent role in the story’s epilogue.

Personally, I think the OP simply managed to fit together most the pieces that have been revealed while mimicking the author’s “voice” in the process. Some of the Joker’s dialogue, especially, sounded very Morrison-esque. Hurt’s over-the.top, melodramatic voice was captured very well, too (though that isn’t really hard.) I don’t think any of this is true, though.

What do you guys think? (If anyone here is also on the DCU boards, feel free to post this, btw. I can't seem to get registered.)

[zur en arrh]

I'd be pretty disappointed if these are all true. Especially the ending, Batman in the helicopter, and Joker going off of the bridge.

[HaroldAllnut]

I won't count on any forum-based spoilers. Let's see how it ends tomorrow.

[PatchMadripoor]

It's midnite in the UK. Can any of our cousins across the pond let us know if this is false? without spoilers.

[koshunter]

Before reading this topic, I was convinced that in the final issue, Bruce might end up killing someone. Now that I've read this topic (and a couple of others), not only am I dying of anticipation, my initial thought seems very unlikely.

Tomorrow cannot come soon enough!

[the goddamn batman]

It's midnite in the UK. Can any of our cousins across the pond let us know if this is false? without spoilers.

No, because the UK doesn't get comics until Thursday.

[davepaton]

I really really hopes that's not the end. What a disappointment and boring demise. Bruce disappears, no body is found fast forward 12 months... Bruce Wayne lives shocker!

A couple points that make me think (and hope its not true) in addition to your own

The joker was in Arkham at the time - did the reviewer give any explanation as to how and why he left?

Isn't Robin the comic currently set after the RIP story and thus clearly he can't be dead or missing? (although it would explain why Robin isn't on the Battle for the Cowl cover)

However Jezabel Jet getting attacked to death by Man-Bats - that would be awesome

[zur en arrh]

The joker was in Arkham at the time - did the reviewer give any explanation as to how and why he left?



I don't quite understand why Joker would be in an Ambulance on a bridge either. "All roads lead to Arkham", and they are already there.

[Red_Knight]

The joker was in Arkham at the time - did the reviewer give any explanation as to how and why he left?

Not really. He didn't really give an elaborate summary, just a spoilerific overview and some clarifications in later posts. If I understood correctly, the Joker supposedly mocks the Black Glove gamblers for daring to mess with Batman, predicting that he'll hunt them all down and then telling them to examine the bat radia before leaving.

Interestingly, Alfred is supposed to be in the batmobile with Damian when he crashes the Joker. That's another thing that seems tacked on to me. Why would Alfred be there? Seems like maybe the op didn't know any other way to tie him in and show he's alive and well.

[HaroldAllnut]

However Jezabel Jet getting attacked to death by Man-Bats - that would be awesome

Yes. Yes, that would be awesome. I do hope that happens.

[zur en arrh]

http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?threadID=2000172848&tstart=0

Another spoiler there. *Darkseid? Really? REALLY?*

[Red_Knight]

http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?threadID=2000172848&tstart=0

Another spoiler there. Darkseid? Really? REALLY?

Don't bother. Tony Daniel himself has discredited this poster's claims in the thread

[zur en arrh]

Don't bother. Tony Daniel himself has discredited this poster's claims in the thread

Oh, well then I feel rather foolish :frown:

I hadn't read the rest of the thread yet.

[Red_Knight]

Oh, well then I feel rather foolish :frown:

I hadn't read the rest of the thread yet.

Hey no prob... I'm interested in the discussion going on in the other spoiler thread, though... I do hope it's not true.

[bmattingly32]

What the original poster said was true. I have read Batman 681 as well. Joker is on a bridge because he bails from Arkham knowing that Batman will escape. Batman is seemingly killed with Black Glove on the helicopter however, what, to my surprise, hasn't been mentioned is that in the end whenever that guy who got cut up by Joker is torturing the cop a bat signal is shone and the cop smiles. This leads me to believe Batman isn't dead, or has been replaced by someone acting as batman. This book does leave a lot to be questioned. No mention of why Batman isn't in the purple suit and it was pretty lame/confusing. I HAVE READ IT. So you can ask questions, but I haven't obsessed about it, so I don't know a lot of the very very specifics regarding previous issues.

[Red_Knight]

What the original poster said was true. I have read Batman 681 as well. Joker is on a bridge because he bails from Arkham knowing that Batman will escape. Batman is seemingly killed with Black Glove on the helicopter however, what, to my surprise, hasn't been mentioned is that in the end whenever that guy who got cut up by Joker is torturing the cop a bat signal is shone and the cop smiles. This leads me to believe Batman isn't dead, or has been replaced by someone acting as batman. This book does leave a lot to be questioned. No mention of why Batman isn't in the purple suit and it was pretty lame/confusing. I HAVE READ IT. So you can ask questions, but I haven't obsessed about it, so I don't know a lot of the very very specifics regarding previous issues.

Okay then. If I may:

What's up with Gordon? What's his role?

Why is Bruce trying to revive the dead monk with smelling salts? What is that scene about?

Would you agree that the BG has not been revealed? Who is he, and who is Hurt, in your opinion?

[bmattingly32]

Okay then. If I may:

What's up with Gordon? What's his role?

Why is Bruce trying to revive the dead monk with smelling salts? What is that scene about?

Would you agree that the BG has not been revealed? Who is he, and who is Hurt, in your opinion?

Gordon is only shone at the scene of the helicopter crash after Batman is assumed dead. Other than that he is not in the comic at all.

The dead monk was a flash back where Batman discussed why he did the whole isolation thing. It was because he wanted to experience death so that he had nothing to be afraid of. He also explains that, so he would be able to resist someone taking advantage of his mind, he created a second personality to fall back on in time of need, thusly Zurr En Arrh or whatever. The monk comes in because Batman wanted to talk with the monk's boss about what happened in isolation. It wasn't clear why the boss didn't show up, but either way Batman was talking to the monk instead. Batman and the monk are both drinking chai and the monk laced Batman's with poison. Batman switches the cups when the monk blinks and then, after explaining that he is always ready for anything, Batman gives the monk the anti-dote with the sniffing salts.

It is very unclear about who the Black Glove is. Everything I read on this forum is true, though. I personally think it is the guy Batman said he was. There was also some tid-bit about maybe this guy framing the Waynes so that the Wayne Enterprise suffered financially ruining everything the Waynes worked for.

I only read it once, and was very confused. Sorry if things are too vague.

[stillanerd]

Hey no prob... I'm interested in the discussion going on in the other spoiler thread, though... I do hope it's not true.

I don't blame you one bit. Because if these spoilers are indeed true, this will turn out to be one of the biggest let downs and half-assed endings in recent comic book story arcs, right up there with Captain America giving up and surrendering at the end of Civil War #7. After all, what you theorized sounded far more logical and plausible than what these spoilers suggest might happen.

[bmattingly32]

Talia does send the Manbats after Jezebel.

Batman knew Jezebel was bad the whole time. He figured it out when she said, "I understand." or something. This was his reasoning for the second personality, I believe.

[bmattingly32]

I don't blame you one bit. Because if these spoilers are indeed true, this will turn out to be one of the biggest let downs and half-assed endings in recent comic book story arcs, right up there with Captain America giving up and surrendering at the end of Civil War #7. After all, what you theorized sounded far more logical and plausible than what these spoilers suggest might happen.

These spoilers ARE true, and ARE boring and half-assed.

[Red_Knight]

Gordon is only shone at the scene of the helicopter crash after Batman is assumed dead. Other than that he is not in the comic at all.

The dead monk was a flash back where Batman discussed why he did the whole isolation thing. It was because he wanted to experience death so that he had nothing to be afraid of. He also explains that, so he would be able to resist someone taking advantage of his mind, he created a second personality to fall back on in time of need, thusly Zurr En Arrh or whatever. The monk comes in because Batman wanted to talk with the monk's boss about what happened in isolation. It wasn't clear why the boss didn't show up, but either way Batman was talking to the monk instead. Batman and the monk are both drinking chai and the monk laced Batman's with poison.

That was all in the online preview, though...

Batman switches the cups when the monk blinks and then, after explaining that he is always ready for anything, Batman gives the monk the anti-dote with the sniffing salts.


Smelling salts as an antidote to poison? Huh... Sounds strange. So, what then. How does the flashback progress? Surely, Bruce questions the monk? I mean, he was talking about having a "dark master". Who is that?

(Btw: Sorry if I sound demanding. I mean no ill. Someone new dropping in only to explain how they have already read a yet-to-be-published book of great interest always seems a bit fishy, though. Hope you understand.)

[zur en arrh]

This is the truth? You've actually read it?

[bmattingly32]

That was all in the online preview, though...



Smelling salts as an antidote to poison? Huh... Sounds strange. So, what then. How does the flashback progress? Surely, Bruce questions the monk? I mean, he was talking about having a "dark master". Who is that?

(Btw: Sorry if I sound demanding. I mean no ill. Someone new dropping in only to explain how they have already read a yet-to-be-published book of great interest always seems a bit fishy, though. Hope you understand.)

I understand. I would be skeptical too. Bruce doesn't question the monk. I think that there's some understanding that the monks boss is Black Glove. It wasn't outrightly said, but thats what I inferred.

[Red_Knight]

Batman knew Jezebel was bad the whole time. He figured it out when she said, "I understand." or something. This was his reasoning for the second personality, I believe.

Okay, sorry, but this doesn't make a lick of sense. Either Morrison wrote this at 3AM in the morning while drunk and tripping on LSD, or you are pulling our leg here.

If Bruce knew that Jezebel was evil all along, why in the world would he let her in the cave, endandering not only himself, but the entire bat family?! Also, why would he storm Arkham to free her if he knew she was part of the Black Glove and thus completely safe?

Finally, the Zur En Arhhh personality was put in place years ago. Bruce didn't come up with that to account for Jezebel in some way.

[stillanerd]

These spoilers ARE true, and ARE boring and half-assed.

Oh, it wouldn't surprise me if they were at all. And of course, everyone knows that Batman wouldn't have died in the helicopter crash, what there being no body after all. Yet how long DC going to pretend that Batman did really die? And I certainly agree that Dr. Hurt ihad a personality disorder that makes him think he's Thomas Wayne--which I think a lot of people pretty much figured out already. Just par for the course for overly hyped story arcs--they're really just set-ups for the next arc rather than stories with a beginning, a middle, and an end.

[bmattingly32]

Okay, sorry, but this doesn't make a lick of sense. Either Morrison wrote this at 3AM in the morning while drunk and tripping on LSD, or you are pulling our leg here.

If Bruce knew that Jezebel was evil all along, why in the world would he let her in the cave, endandering not only himself, but the entire bat family?! Also, why would he storm Arkham to free her if he knew she was part of the Black Glove and thus completely safe?

Finally, the Zur En Arhhh personality was put in place years ago. Bruce didn't come up with that to account for Jezebel in some way.

Well, he says he knew about Jezebel. Not the WHOLE WHOLE time, but after she said, I understand, which I think was in the batcave in one of the previous issues. I don't know why he would storm the Arkham, other than to confront the bad guys. He kept emphasizing that he was ready for anything, so he must have assumed that he was well-prepared for any assault that they would use against him.

[bmattingly32]

And as far as the Zurr En Arrh then idk. They made it seem like it was this personality that defended him from succumbing to Jezebel.

Jeez, you guys are doing a hell of a job trying to trip me up. Tomorrow, though... You'll see.

[Red_Knight]

I don't know why he would storm the Arkham, other than to confront the bad guys. He kept emphasizing that he was ready for anything, so he must have assumed that he was well-prepared for any assault that they would use against him.

Sounds like a pretty half-baked idea. It doesn't explain why Batman would go looking for Jezebel in the bowls of Arkham instead of crashing the Black Glove gala in the next room. Also, there is no way on earth anyone could possibly explain why Bruce would turn his back on the frickin' Joker and expose himself to a potentially lethal neuro toxin to free a hostage whom he knows to be a decoy.

I don't buy it, sorry. If it turns out that you are right, I'll apologize, but I simply find your replies to detailed questions too vague and strange.

[bmattingly32]

Sounds like a pretty half-baked idea. It doesn't explain why Batman would go looking for Jezebel in the bowls of Arkham instead of crashing the Black Glove gala in the next room. Also, there is no way on earth anyone could possibly explain why Bruce would turn his back on the frickin' Joker and expose himself to a potentially lethal neuro toxin to free a hostage whom he knows to be a decoy.

I don't buy it, sorry. If it turns out that you are right, I'll apologize, but I simply find your replies to detailed questions too vague and strange.

Yeah. I understand. Frankly, I havn't delved too deeply into this book. I find it interesting, but i'm not obsessed with it. The ending was case in point that this book sucked. I was able to read it because I have access to comics a day early through a comic store I go to. That's all. I joined the boards today to fill you guys in becuase I love spoiling shit. haha.

[bmattingly32]

There's a great possibility that I missed something when I read it, but for the most part all of what I said is completely true. It was pretty disappointing. I had heard that Robin was gonna be behind it all, and I got excited, cuz that would have been a good ending. Instead we get this. Who is the Black Glove? I don;t even know and I read 681. Is Batman really dead? Doubtful, but who knows. Is Jezebel even dead? They don't even show the Manbats attack her. They just show them flying towards and attacking the exterior of her plane. Maybe she's a captive. No definitive proof regarding any of the climactic elements.

[zur en arrh]

This is just making me want to read it even more:evilsmile:

[koshunter]

At least you've managed to lower my heads out of the clouds. Now when I read it, I'll know it's not the issue I was hoping it to be; really hope that makes it more bearable. =/

[bmattingly32]

At least you've managed to lower my heads out of the clouds. Now when I read it, I'll know it's not the issue I was hoping it to be; really hope that makes it more bearable. =/

Yeah. you should read superman. I have liked that alot, since Pa Kent died, but I'll admit I haven't read the newest Supergirl yet, nor did I read tomorrow's Superman.

[Red_Knight]

This is just making me want to read it even more:evilsmile:

I'm not sure what to think yet. In any case, it seems that these spoilers are actually becoming more and more likely. I just noticed that the guy who posted them on DC boards was early -- and absolutely correct -- for 680, too.

[bmattingly32]

I'm not sure what to think yet. In any case, it seems that these spoilers are actually becoming more and more likely. I just noticed that the guy who posted them on DC boards was early -- and absolutely correct -- for 680, too.

Dude, no one is bullshittin here. It was a lame ass ending with more questions left than answers. I'm sure they'll explain more in future Batman issues, but this wasn't the climax I was expecting, and I wasn't even expecting a lot.

[zur en arrh]

I'm not sure what to think yet. In any case, it seems that these spoilers are actually becoming more and more likely. I just noticed that the guy who posted them on DC boards was early -- and absolutely correct -- for 680, too.

What we've read so far definitely seems lack luster, but I am inclined to believe that there is more here that people are just not getting. And I think actually reading it will bring it all together, and it could still be good. But on the flip side of that, it could be a total flop and ruin what has been, in my opinion, a fantastic run thus far. Either way, I just want to read it already.

[Red_Knight]

Dude, no one is bullshittin here. It was a lame ass ending with more questions left than answers. I'm sure they'll explain more in future Batman issues, but this wasn't the climax I was expecting, and I wasn't even expecting a lot.

Well, Morrison has said that his next Batman "novel" will pick up right away when he returns to the book. Maybe Bruce won't be Batman because he's hunting The Black Glove? Would make sense... You didn't come away with the notion that the BG really could be Thomas Wayne, though, did you?

[bmattingly32]

What we've read so far definitely seems lack luster, but I am inclined to believe that there is more here that people are just not getting. And I think actually reading it will bring it all together, and it could still be good. But on the flip side of that, it could be a total flop and ruin what has been, in my opinion, a fantastic run thus far. Either way, I just want to read it already.

Yeah. I could be missing the point, but.... i doubt it. I would like to re-read everything now. That might help.

[bmattingly32]

Well, Morrison has said that his next Batman "novel" will pick up right away when he returns to the book. Maybe Bruce won't be Batman because he's hunting The Black Glove? Would make sense... You didn't come away with the notion that the BG really could be Thomas Wayne, though, did you?

No. In my opinion, though not outrightly said one way or another, I DO NOT think that BG was Thomas Wayne. Batman made a stronger case against it than BG made a case for it. Someone quoted exactly what BG said, I saw it somewhere around here. It was pretty much word for word. Maybe it was on the DC boards, I was looking over there too.

[bmattingly32]

What everyone else hasn't talked about is the Bat-signal in the end. That has significance. I personally think that that means that Batman is still alive.

[hippy fascist]

does no one else find it a bit suspect that both the account on the DC boards that originally revealed these "spoilers" and the account that's backing them up on this board, were both created TODAY...

I'm calling this as bullshit :rolleyes:

[zur en arrh]

The Original Poster of the spoilers on the DC boards goes more into detail. (http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?threadID=2000172886&start=75&tstart=0)

I think he could be legit.

[bmattingly32]

does no one else find it a bit suspect that both the account on the DC boards that originally revealed these "spoilers" and the account that's backing them up on this board, were both created TODAY...

I'm calling this as bullshit :rolleyes:

I am going to want a sincere apology tomorrow. :tongue: You can make it out to Brandon.:smile:

[Red_Knight]

does no one else find it a bit suspect that both the account on the DC boards that originally revealed these "spoilers" and the account that's backing them up on this board, were both created TODAY...

I'm calling this as bullshit :rolleyes:

Actually, the account on the DCU boards dates back to a day or so before #680.

What I find interesting, however, is that the EXACT same "new" details bmattingly revealed here -- like the smelling salts being the antidote to the monk's poison -- were posted just a minute ago on the DCU boards, too. Coincidence?

(BTMattingly: Don't get mad. We're just playing detective. ;) )

[Red_Knight]

I'm going to say this:

If the guy over at the DCU boards is pulling a fake-out, he is doing a heck of a job, in any case. Posting a made-up summary is one thing, posting page-by-page breakdowns and dialoge that sounds correct is an entirely different thing.

Anyone else think this might be someone from DC playing a little joke on us? :P I keep flashing back to the preview image titled "alternate ending" on Tony's blog.

[bmattingly32]

I am not the same guy on the DC Boards if thats what you're suggesting. I saw his posts, and then figured he could handle the DC boards. I decided to come over here and fill you guys in. He is 100% right though. That is what happens.

[John Lynch]

Woops. Wrong thread. Nevermind.

[Jkid099]

The "descriptions" are pretty convincing, except for when you go back and peer at the posters.

The initial poster on the DC Board, "jsquared," has only 12 posts in existence, essentially starting with the thread where the "spoilers" are posted. The main proponent(s) of jsquared's spoilers being "true" seem to be people who've only started posting in the last month, and most of their posts deal with Batman or RIP.

Outside of these few posters claiming this, there have been little to no others stepping forward with similar spoilers for tomorrow's issue.

The spoilers themselves seem to draw upon conjecture that has happened before, and more importantly, people's fears about what COULD happen.

Frankly, it seems to me that it's all an elaborate "spoiler hoax." Whether it is being done the night before by DC folk or just a few tricksters out to have some fun remains to be seen.

All the "detailed posts" seem to spin out of direct responses to people's critiques of the jsquared's initial "offering." Each new offering of a "spoiler" seems to merely be an elaborate response to any critique (i.e., someone says "Well, why wasn't this said during a scene with Bruce or Nightwing?" which is soon responded to with an elaborate scene written up which gives them exactly what they're looking for).

While it could be true that this is the ending to the issue, it doesn't work with Final Crisis. Supposedly #682-683 deal with how this works Batman into the storyline, but having him "disappear and be believed dead" for six months, then randomly show up to possibly get really killed in Final Crisis doesn't work. And while Morrison has his out of the box methods of telling a story, this doesn't jibe.

But I guess we'll all find out soon enough.

[Red_Knight]

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/25/holy-caskets-is-batman-destined-for-death/

The New York Times claims that #681 contains the helicopter crash, from which only Batman's cowl is recovered. So I guess this looks as legit as legit can be now.

If that's the way R.I.P. ends, -- I'm fine with that. I still think it could be an elaborate hoax, though. The "alternate ending" preview that Tony Daniel posted some weeks ago could be hinting at that. He never once explained why the picture was titled that, even though people asked.

[Liberty Belle Fan]

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/25/holy-caskets-is-batman-destined-for-death/

The New York Times claims that #681 contains the helicopter crash, from which only Batman's cowl is recovered. So I guess this looks as legit as legit can be now.

If that's the way R.I.P. ends, -- I'm fine with that. I still think it could be an elaborate hoax, though. The "alternate ending" preview that Tony Daniel posted some weeks ago could be hinting at that. He never once explained why the picture was titled that, even though people asked.

I thought it was mentioned that the readers would find out Batman's ultimate fate in Final Crisis. Did I read that incorrectly somewhere?

[zur en arrh]

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/25/holy-caskets-is-batman-destined-for-death/

The New York Times claims that #681 contains the helicopter crash, from which only Batman's cowl is recovered. So I guess this looks as legit as legit can be now.

If that's the way R.I.P. ends, -- I'm fine with that. I still think it could be an elaborate hoax, though. The "alternate ending" preview that Tony Daniel posted some weeks ago could be hinting at that. He never once explained why the picture was titled that, even though people asked.

That pretty much confirms the ending. I'm looking forward to the last panel hopefully being a shot of the cowl.

[Thursaiz]

So...what cowl is shown? The purple or the blue?

[John Lynch]

I thought it was mentioned that the readers would find out Batman's ultimate fate in Final Crisis. Did I read that incorrectly somewhere?I believe I saw that same advertisement as well.

[Rollo_Tomasi]

didn't Morrison himself say that RIP happens before Final Crisis?

[Mike Smith]

I've been looking into this as well, and it seems national media (Daily Telgraph) is now citing Morrison's interview with CBR (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/celebritynews/3517456/Batman-to-be-killed-off-after-70-years.html) as it sources into its claims, which I won't say as to not spoil anything.

[Bruce Wayne Jr.]

This is just making me want to read it even more:evilsmile:

Funny... these spoilers are giving me the opposite effect.

[flying grayson]

I certainly hope those aren't true... It needs to be something bigger... better... more shocking.

[He who laughs last]

Ack.

These sock puppets are right. Why Grant? Why? (faux nerd rage fist shaking :evilangry: )

This is panning out. A fellow nerdling cracked open one at my local lcs where he works part time earlier tonight. It's your 'typical more questions arise rather than what answered' ending. I don't know wth the deal is with the ending (still waiting on my copy tomorrow) but it looks like it had rewrite written into it. On the brighter side, Tony's art is said to look pretty solid.

Do you think the delays were possibly caused by Tony having to redo the art with an editorial stroke to change the story because of its ending? I seriously hope my friend is just yanking my chain here. This is pretty weak if it turns out to be true.

[ZT4]

FC is all kinds of "WHAAAAAAA?" now. Which is always more fun than allowing it's events to dictate a healthy ending for R.I.P. In my opinion, FC has been such a clusterf*ck that I think everyone's just going to ultimatley ignore/disown it. The spoiler sort of fits into the discussion Superman and Diana had about Bruce's "fate" prior to FC

If it's true, then Bats and The Joker have both had ambigious deaths following helicopter explosions, as some will remember The Joker was "killed off" in "Death in the Family" in a near similar fashion, and returned to challenge...guess what? A pretender to the throne.

I like where this is going. In trying to become The Joker, Bruce ended up "dying" pretty much the same way, and his "rebirth" will make him all the more dangerous...just like The Joker

that guy who got cut up by Joker is torturing the cop a bat signal is shone and the cop smiles. This leads me to believe Batman isn't dead, or has been replaced by someone acting as batman.

And this is actually a work of genius...because THIS is how RIP began. Remember? The cop is smiling because Batman and Robin are about to interupt his tormentor saying "YOU'RE WRONG! BATMAN AND ROBIN WILL NEVER DIE"

The end is the beggining is the end.

[HaroldAllnut]

So...what cowl is shown? The purple or the blue?

I can only imagine it'll be the purple, but then again, I could be entirely wrong. I guess I'll have to reread all that shtuff tonight.

The spoiler sort of fits into the discussion Superman and Diana had about Bruce's "fate" prior to FC

When was this?

[ZT4]

Oh you know, that conversation they had on the roof. Dianah asks how he went down, Supes says something like "fighting", and she just smiles affectionalty, with a tiny hint of sorrow in there.

Can't tell if it was in 52 or Countdown, it's one of those.

[He who laughs last]

FC is all kinds of "WHAAAAAAA?" now. Which is always more fun than allowing it's events to dictate a healthy ending for R.I.P. In my opinion, FC has been such a clusterf*ck that I think everyone's just going to ultimatley ignore/disown it. The spoiler sort of fits into the discussion Superman and Diana had about Bruce's "fate" prior to FC

FC was a little screwed to begin with after Countdown, and how it was tied canonically to the actual event it was supposed to lead into. I hope it doesn't have that happen ultimately. I really hope Bruce's fate isn't decided in Crisis, since RIP takes place prior. It could just be the set up to the fall before the FALL of Batman. I hope that RIP just doesn't wind up as a write off in the long run, by both fans and future writers, but I can see it being regarded that way and retconned (Xorn anyone?). I'm not holding my breath, but we'll all see tomorrrow for certain when the board explodes.

If it's true, then Bats and The Joker have both had ambigious deaths following helicopter explosions, as some will remember The Joker was "killed off" in "Death in the Family" in a near similar fashion, and returned to challenge...guess what? A pretender to the throne.

I like where this is going. In trying to become The Joker, Bruce ended up "dying" pretty much the same way, and his "rebirth" will make him all the more dangerous...just like The Joker

I like that idea. The evolution aspect could be very instrumental in the next phase of Batman, no matter who is in the Cowl while playing into the battle for it. The two have always adapted and adjusted to each other. Depending on who is writing, it could be a great arc in a year or two, depending on how long the fall out lasts after RIP. A good retrospect into how both characters have evolved since they first met, meeting again and both realizing that no matter how much things change, the more they stay the same.

[He who laughs last]

whoops!

Forgot to extract that bit in my response above to the quote.

[ZT4]

GET OUTTA MY HEAD!:eek: :tongue:

[He who laughs last]

GET OUTTA MY HEAD!:eek: :tongue:

Thats Morrison's doing. He is inside your head man, just like everyone else on this board and many others in recent months. Looking at shadows when it is high noon, re-looking at things in the juxtaposition of a red and black photo negatives....

I will say this, Grant did manage to pull off a real detective story. He got the involved reader to rethink many things that could have been clues all along, and got the casual reader's interest piqued with a story that had lots of clues. I followed Dini's run of Tec for the last year and a half because of the writing, and got pulled into RIP by proxy.

I really hope this ending doesn't wind up being the truth or resolution to a story that could have had a much better ending so to speak. The bottom line, that I think, was about making DC money. Since Grant is one of the big time story tellers DC has right now, I think DiDeo was willing to give him final say until dollars came into play, knowing full well anything with his name on it would be top ranking when issues were tabulated.

I have to tip my hat to Grant on getting even lurkers involved. Some of the stuff thrown around in recent months by other posters for ideas about RIP got me thinking about batman in many different ways. Some held water, most didn't. But still, the ideas thrown around were great. Daniels' art was a plus as well for the latter part of the run. Despite whatever ending RIP may have, I know what dollars will be spent trying to figure out the stuff that doesn't get resolved in future issues when Grant comes back.

Hopefully it is a good enough story worth buying.

[James Conniff]

I don't think that Bruce is The Black Glove. Remember, it was Jezebel Jet who first brought that question to light within the comic. I believe that this fear of being his own enemy is something planted in his mind. Something spun out of the question always asked about Batman, does his presence attract the crazies in Gotham. Has Batman just made things worse instead of making them better? Bruce wrestles with this always and bears this potential guilt on his shoulders. But he can't stop, even if he IS the reason for Joker and Two-Face and all the crazies. The mission is too strong, too important. So this is an aspect he can never put behind him.

In the preview, he references "something I can't see or say". This is the trigger word, shown backwards in the next panel "Zur-En-Arrh". It's something that makes Bruce so great, he has is not sure what this presence in his mind is, but he realizes the danger of a mental attack and takes precautions against it. He talks about it being tattooed on his mind and hidden. This is Dr Hurt hiding the word deep in his mind.
He also says "Have you ever tried to do only good, and found things just got worse? Could I have been, even unconsciously, my own worst enemy?

With all of the repeated psychological trauma is it unreasonable to think that Batman's personality fragmented even more, why he fell for Jezzabell so quickly, and was even planning to take out Batman. After all, who is better to defeat the worlds greatest detective?

I do think that there will be something in Bruce's past that he has repressed, something Dr Hurt and the Black Glove will bring to light. Something that will shake him to his very core. And I think Dr Hurt knew of this memory when he implanted the Zur-En-Arrh trigger into Batman's mind, he hid his codeword in a place not even Batman could go.
Very possible, but I don't feel like it is big enough. All of the Batbooks are being canceled. This is being set up to be a new beginning. It reminds me of Bru's Captain America run, and I mean that in a very good way.


Still so much to answer. Charlie Caligula SAW Bat-Mite. There are pictures of the Bat-Radia in the Black Case book.Caligula IS crazy though. I think I'll stick with the pure Batman character is imagining him...though I won't deny the possibility that Imagination is the 5th dimension.

So does Bruce turn himself in to the Gordon and the police? Go underground with Talia and become the new Demon's Head (the villain turn)? Or just disappear entirely for a year or two?

I think Morrison is going to make Bruce the worlds premier super villain and the Bat family changing and each taking on some new roles. Dick will be Bats when this is said and done....if time were a little older I'd say he should be Batman...but the Cowl should go to Bruce's first son and with the whole Bat family together they may just be able to save Bruce Wayne from himself. I would love to see Bruce in command of a the League of assassin's with Talia and perhaps even further twisting his own son. Hell I'd love to see him on his own, with Jezzabell at his side, even going toe to toe with the Justice League. After all If Bruce had the resources to Become batman...imagine how much easier it would be for him to become the greatest super criminal ever.

[ZT4]

It's not really an ending. I don't think anyone looked at it like an ending, and if they did...ouch, no wonder there going to be pissed off

Morrison's Batman run is pretty much a novel. Novels have middle acts, and RIP is set up like that...that's why the ending just sort of "stops" like any regular chapter, albiet one told mainly in flashback, with a flash-forward to return us to the present day.

It's Gandolf being struck down, and taken out of the equation for a few chapters, and indeed, the remainder of "Fellowship", but since LOTR is one complete story, he's simply missing for a few chapters in the omnibus form, and it's more seemless when he reappears in "The Two Towers" in omnibus form, not marred by a gap between publication dates.

The novel Morrison has written has had appendixes, appendages, chapters within chapters, and has required the reader to smoke a fracking pipe and make their husbunds/wives/parents/siblings their Dr. Watson-cum-bitch the whole time...and it ain't over yet. This is where people are getting scared, and that's where novels come alive.

Book One is over, Book Two begins. And when all is said and done...that omnibus is going to be savoured.

[md62]

Read it. It looks like I may be dropping Batman until this all goes away. Crap. First Marvel had me drop Spider-Man now DC has me dropping Batman. Oh well - at least I know Bruce will be back sometime. I doubt Peter will get remarried to MJ.....

[Super Buddies Forever]

I'm not sure what I'm looking forward to most. The backlash, or the Morrison apologists contorting themselves in knots trying to justify this as the greatest literary triumph western civilization has ever known.

[TuPeT]

There are some people that don't agree with Charlie Caligula seeing Bat-mite, some say he refered to the bat Batman was holding.

It's today!!!! But I can only see it tonight!! Damn it!!!

[ZT4]

We don't have to. It is.

It's the biased anti-Morrison faction that'll refuse to acknowledge something interesting and ambigious, because comic fans actually thinking is a cardinal sin against nature these days in an industry saturated with dumb.

Read it. It looks like I may be dropping Batman until this all goes away. Crap. First Marvel had me drop Spider-Man now DC has me dropping Batman. Oh well - at least I know Bruce will be back sometime. I doubt Peter will get remarried to MJ.....

Those two will be married again once the first EIC who liked the marraige comes into power. Wont' be for years, but it'll happen. Marvel had to frack up continuity just to make sure they could retcon everything back if they chose to, and that's the polar opposite of DC using old-school continuity to close out Bruce's stint as Batman

[Red_Knight]

I'm not sure what I'm looking forward to most. The backlash, or the Morrison apologists contorting themselves in knots trying to justify this as the greatest literary triumph western civilization has ever known.

I, too, have come to believe that these spoilers are legit, and though I might have envisioned a different, more defintive conclusion, I do have faith in Morrison to produce straight answers eventually. He is staying on the book for a while, after all.

Say what you will about Morrison and his trippy stories, but he has never, to the best of my knowledge, left major plot points and characters up in the air indefinitely. If there is no obvious subtext to the spoilers we have for #681, then IMO that means we have yet to find out whether Hurt is really Thomas Wayne or Mangrove Pierce. (However, if the ambiguity of the reveal was an editorially mandated choice, then I'll be pissed...)

The spoilers alone make it obvious that #681 can't possibly be the final world on the matter. Obviously, Bruce is not dead, so, of course, he will want to get to the bottom of this and investigate Hurt's claims. I guess that will be the subject of Morrison's second "novel", which he already announced a while ago. I for one am looking forward to it.

[ZT4]

The only question now is, will it be a trilogy, or is Harry Potter the measuring stick for how long these chinese puzzles meant to last now?

[Verdammt]

Oh you know, that conversation they had on the roof. Dianah asks how he went down, Supes says something like "fighting", and she just smiles affectionalty, with a tiny hint of sorrow in there.

Can't tell if it was in 52 or Countdown, it's one of those.

Wasn't it in Justice League #0?

[Kiryu]

There are some people that don't agree with Charlie Caligula seeing Bat-mite, some say he refered to the bat Batman was holding.

It's today!!!! But I can only see it tonight!! Damn it!!!

According to Tony Daniel, the script called for it to be intentionally vague. He also said there is nothing behind Batman other then Bat-Mite. He ALSO said that if he had to make a call, yes Charlie saw Bat-Mite.

God I'm stuck at the car dealer waiting for repairs. Browsing the forums on my phone to pass the time and that God Forsaken spoiler thread is above me just calling my name. Must be strong!!

[Jkid099]

That scene from Justice League of America #0 keeps popping up in discussions, but I'm fairly certain it was Meltzer just referencing "The Dark Knight Returns." While the rest of Clark and Diana's discussion could match up with Batman RIP (or Final Crisis), except for when Clark states that "(Batman) had been underground for years."

[Verdammt]

That makes more sense.

[Jared H.]

So has this pretty much been confirmed then?

Dammit.

[ZeoVGM]

Read it. It looks like I may be dropping Batman until this all goes away. Crap. First Marvel had me drop Spider-Man now DC has me dropping Batman. Oh well - at least I know Bruce will be back sometime. I doubt Peter will get remarried to MJ.....

Marvel did not "make" you drop Spider-Man. DC is not going to "make" you drop Batman.

The difference is hugely different. Whereas, ASM is now a better book than it's been in years (shame you dropped it for such a silly reason), this Batman story was titled R.I.P., and he goes out in a helicopter, leaving it obviously open for him to come back. It's a cop out, something that was probably changed at the last minute.

Whereas Cap dying felt real, as if we could expect him to be gone for a while, and as if it was about simply telling a good story, Batman "dying" is an obvious marketing ploy. The Bat-books will change for a year, then Bruce will come back. Terrible.

Between this, Final Crisis, taking Action away from Superman and sending him into space (again), DC is an absolute mess. Even many hardcore fans are going to think that.

[bjtrdff]

The difference is hugely different. Whereas, ASM is now a better book than it's been in years (shame you dropped it for such a silly reason).



In your opinion...


But yeah, this does sound kind of lean, assuming that the spoilers here are true. It's funny, after checking out a few old GM interviews, I sort of thought that the Darkseid ending could be true, although it was seemingly too elaborate.

[Mercurialblonde]

Whereas Cap dying felt real, as if we could expect him to be gone for a while, and as if it was about simply telling a good story, Batman "dying" is an obvious marketing ploy. The Bat-books will change for a year, then Bruce will come back. Terrible.


Um....Batman won't be gone even that long. He's in Final Crisis right now, which takes place after RIP. Batman doesn't die until Final Crisis, if at all. RIP was never about Batman dying.

[Bruce Wayne Jr.]

I'm not sure what I'm looking forward to most. The backlash, or the Morrison apologists contorting themselves in knots trying to justify this as the greatest literary triumph western civilization has ever known.

Now that's entertainment! :biggrin:

[ShaggyB]

In your opinion...



Nah hes right. DC isnt making you drop a book by writing a cop-out story, nor did Marvel make you drop by retconnin' the marriage out of spider-man.

They arent twisting your arm, nor are they holding a gun to you. You drop because you wanted to, not because you were "forced to". (you being a you plural, to anyone whom may have dropped for said reason and blamed a publisher)

That being said i agree with the poster you quoted... he dropped asm and batman for silly reasons.

We knew this was a marketing ploy from the beginning. They said the Batman in FC was post RIP Batman. We also knew that they will never kill off batman. He's just too classic and profitable. (See Dark Knight box office numbers)

[hamish314]

We knew this was a marketing ploy from the beginning. They said the Batman in FC was post RIP Batman. We also knew that they will never kill off batman. He's just too classic and profitable. (See Dark Knight box office numbers)

Unless that is NOT Bruce in the FC series, perhaps it's whoever wins the battle for the cowl.

[ZT4]

Unless that is NOT Bruce in the FC series, perhaps it's whoever wins the battle for the cowl.

Definatly something to discuss here...FC will reveal the final fate of Batman, but we don't know if that means "Bruce survived", or "Bats "died" months ago, and this guy is the poser that showed up at the beggining of RIP saying "Batman and Robin will never die".

For the sake of RIP's consistency and place, it better be the latter. FC has enough problems already standing up, RIP just knocked the second table leg off (the delays did that to the first leg)

[ShaggyB]

Unless that is NOT Bruce in the FC series, perhaps it's whoever wins the battle for the cowl.

thats after FC though.

[CMBMOOL]

I have to say Bat's death sure does seem anti-cliamtic even for a guy like Morrison to write him. :frown:

[Pinual]

With ASM, CA, and now this horrible Batman story I just think maybe Marvel and DC don't want readers anymore....

I just read the issue...its bad, I love a lot of GM stuff but if I don't love it I pretty much always hate it and I just added another to that pile.

[ZT4]

With ASM, CA, and now this horrible Batman story I just think maybe Marvel and DC don't want readers anymore.....

With downturn in buisness and competition strong, this is always when they get (shudder) "experimental". Unlike what happened with OMD though, I like how we've got to "Battle For The Cowel", but I just know it's not going to lead to consistently good things, especially with Morrison on an ever escalating "Piss 'em off-ameter" with Didio.

Rough shores make this stuff look like calm seas.

[bjtrdff]

Nah hes right. DC isnt making you drop a book by writing a cop-out story, nor did Marvel make you drop by retconnin' the marriage out of spider-man.

They arent twisting your arm, nor are they holding a gun to you. You drop because you wanted to, not because you were "forced to". (you being a you plural, to anyone whom may have dropped for said reason and blamed a publisher)

That being said i agree with the poster you quoted... he dropped asm and batman for silly reasons.

We knew this was a marketing ploy from the beginning. They said the Batman in FC was post RIP Batman. We also knew that they will never kill off batman. He's just too classic and profitable. (See Dark Knight box office numbers)


If you actually noticed, my quote had to do with the ASM stories now being some of the best ever, nothing to do with anyone being 'made' to drop books

[Kiryu]

I'll confirm the spoilers for the most part. But the summary and the details were posted in a manner that seems very obtuse and glossed over a lot in an effort to make the story seem shitty.

I daresay our own Mr Callahan was correct. Either it's the Devil or this is the biggest non-reveal ever.

Any questions, I can answer.

[zur en arrh]

I think that in the first panel of Batman 676, and the Batman that is in Final Crisis, is Dick Grayson, *based on the fact that he was left holding Batman's Cowl.*

[Duy]

What the--

This wasn't an ending!!

Seriously, if Morrison is gonna be like this for all the mainstream DC events, I can hardly blame Didio for ordering a rewrite of FC7.

All that time waiting for the Black Glove reveal, and all we get are more cryptic hints??

[zur en arrh]

I suspect we'll have to wait until 683 to have ALL of the answers. That's when the collected edition ends, and that's where Alfred tells his story. I wouldn't be surprised though, if even after 683 no one knows who The Black Glove is for sure.

[Superbeast]

Well after 680 concluded with the question "Now do I get it?", I have to say my answer is "No, Not really. Although Hurt might be Thomas Wayne. Maybe."

[Kiryu]

I think that in the first panel of Batman 676, and the Batman that is in Final Crisis, is Dick Grayson, *based on the fact that he was left holding Batman's Cowl.*

Nightwing is seen in Final Crisis though. And Morrison has said "The Batman in Final Crisis is Bruce Wayne, just not as you know him."

[bjtrdff]

Nightwing is seen in Final Crisis though. And Morrison has said "The Batman in Final Crisis is Bruce Wayne, just not as you know him."



That's so mysterious and elusive. Hardly what I would expect from GM.........

[Superbeast]

Nightwing is seen in Final Crisis though. And Morrison has said "The Batman in Final Crisis is Bruce Wayne, just not as you know him."

So he's in full Zen Er Argh mode then and "Bruce Wayne" is dead but Batman is still around.

[pauwoo]

I'm not sure what I'm looking forward to most. The backlash, or the Morrison apologists contorting themselves in knots trying to justify this as the greatest literary triumph western civilization has ever known.

Can't wait for this, but they are going to stick their normal defence, you don't understand what he is trying to do or it's not finished yet just wait until it's really finished.

They refuse to admit that a lot of his stories after a huge build-up/hype are a disappointment.

[camiwaits]

After this issue i left with the impression that the Black Glove was simply the organization.

It honestly did feel like a let down, i expected a conclusion.

[Keith_Martineau]

I'm not one to say "wait and see" but...

We all know DC is, generally speaking, far more involved in hand holding their properties and exploiting things where they can than Marvel is. Obviously they both do it, so lets not let that statement derail the discussion.

But what I'm saying is, if Morrison were able to do his entire Batman story, issue by issue, RIP would probably be somewhere in the middle of his overall tale, and by the end a lot more things would make sense, and there would be more of an ending. Reference New X-Men for a good example of what I'm talking about. Batman RIP might be comparable to the end Imperial where Xavier gets use of his legs and Cassie Nova is defeated---but is by no means the end of the story Morrison was telling.

But because DC is more involved in this, we don't just move from Batman RIP with it's mysterious ending to learning about a new Batman and Robin and the story moves to it's ultimate Morrisonian conclusion.
Instead we get Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader and Battle for the Cowl shoved in the middle of the story, breaking up the flow, raising the middle of a story to event status and setting up people for disappointment.

The story isn't technically over yet. So, you know, wait and see.

[bobellis75]

I will add my two cents here...just picked up the issue and read it over my lunch break...

The ending was not what I expected at all, unless I'm just missing something? And I can see where a lot of people are going to be pissed/let down. I was let down a bit...just expecting some big earth shattering reveal I guess. But I actually didn't think the issue was all that bad.

Yes...it leaves questions unanswered, but I will keep reading in hopes that everything will unfold over the next story arc. I would say this - rather than be upset by spoilers (if you haven't read it yet), go pick up the book and sit down and read it. You may just like it. The spoilers online definitely just run through the story and leave out a lot of the narrative, etc....(in my opinion, anyway).

It did still seem a bit rushed and like a bit of a letdown, but like I said, I'm willing to wait and see what happens.

[bobellis75]

I'm not one to say "wait and see" but...

We all know DC is, generally speaking, far more involved in hand holding their properties and exploiting things where they can than Marvel is. Obviously they both do it, so lets not let that statement derail the discussion.

But what I'm saying is, if Morrison were able to do his entire Batman story, issue by issue, RIP would probably be somewhere in the middle of his overall tale, and by the end a lot more things would make sense, and there would be more of an ending. Reference New X-Men for a good example of what I'm talking about. Batman RIP might be comparable to the end Imperial where Xavier gets use of his legs and Cassie Nova is defeated---but is by no means the end of the story Morrison was telling.

But because DC is more involved in this, we don't just move from Batman RIP with it's mysterious ending to learning about a new Batman and Robin and the story moves to it's ultimate Morrisonian conclusion.
Instead we get Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader and Battle for the Cowl shoved in the middle of the story, breaking up the flow, raising the middle of a story to event status and setting up people for disappointment.

The story isn't technically over yet. So, you know, wait and see.

well said...

[Kiryu]

And now in 20 Questions with Dan Didio's, the most important question I see, is Grant Morrison's return to Batman. Which seems like it is no longer a sure thing.

[bjtrdff]

I just read it, and although I would have liked a few more pages of reveal and answers, I enjoyed it.

I'm actually surprised that most of the spoilers I've read online had people confused about the Batman and robin will never die scene that starts things off. I think it pretty perfectly syncs up at the end, you just have to connect it in your mind.

I'm also quite glad that it's not the Darkseid trying to ruin Batman thing (not that it couldn't be at this point, but that whole thing felt a bit too elaborate).

[Samuraixsithlord]

God I loved this issue.

Batman had lanned everything, he knew who the members of the Black Glove were he just needed to get them all together. He knew Jet was a member, he knew everything!!!!!

Nightwing only got captured to provide Batman with Backup, it was brilliant and the Joker knew the whole time!!!!!

[JumpingJupiter]

My 5 lb dog pees and poos in a tray lined with paper. Without exaggeration, I'm tempted to put this comic in the tray.

[Superbeast]

God I loved this issue.

Batman had lanned everything, he knew who the members of the Black Glove were he just needed to get them all together. He knew Jet was a member, he knew everything!!!!!

So you don't think it came across as trite "I know what they know but they don't know I know what they know" bullshit to you? At all?

Somehow Batman was in on the act the entire time but still allowed himself to be put through and put himself through the entire shebang to his personal detriment just to "play along"? "I'm your father and you should be dead!" "No you're not, you're Mangrove Pierce!" "No I'm not, I am your father and I'm going to reveal our family's sordid path to the world!" "NOOOOOO!" "De Choppa... it's going doooown!" "They crashed... but didn't find a body!" "Ok, release her... oh no, some batlike objects brought her down!" Christ, it's like a bad Miami Vice episode mashed up with Epire Strikes Back.

I have enjoyed Morrison's work in the past but this is ridiculous. Now we have to buy Final Crisis to get the conclusion to this arc so we can find out who is under the cowl and what has actually happened to Bruce Wayne? This seems like a big build to literally no pay off. Do I get it? No, I don't. Was I meant to? Obviously not, that's why I'll have to read FC.

RIDICULOUS.

[bobellis75]

My 5 lb dog pees and poos in a tray lined with paper. Without exaggeration, I'm tempted to put this comic in the tray.

so you liked it? :biggrin:

[zur en arrh]

I just read it, and although I would have liked a few more pages of reveal and answers, I enjoyed it.

I'm actually surprised that most of the spoilers I've read online had people confused about the Batman and robin will never die scene that starts things off. I think it pretty perfectly syncs up at the end, you just have to connect it in your mind.

I'm also quite glad that it's not the Darkseid trying to ruin Batman thing (not that it couldn't be at this point, but that whole thing felt a bit too elaborate).

I agree. The first panel of 676 goes perfectly right at the end. And man, do I love the shot of Nightwing. I enjoyed the issue, but I think it could have been a little longer.

[ASM78]

Well I was flamed for quite a bit about my earlier posts regarding this arc and Morrison's writing in general. Can we now stop saying how fucking great Morrison is please?
He is his own biggest fan ...just ask him.

[Jared H.]

As an individual Batman comic, it was a good issue. As a conclusion to a tale that was hyped and pushed and publicized, I feel it was a failure.

[Spirit_of_Vengeance]

Damn, this issue was all kinds of awesome.

Batman at his best. Joker in one of his best portrayals yet (crazy, and yet very intelligent, and describing his relationship with Batman perfect), and how he should be portrayed in general. A not-so-obvious ending, that opens all kinds of possibilities. It was just perfect, and the ending I wanted.

[zur en arrh]

Batman owning Jezebel in every way possible is something I HIGHLY enjoyed. He stole her mothers letter, he told her he knew the whole time, and when she brought up the fact that Bruce "loved" her, he told her to thank Alfred for his acting lessons. Just an all around win.

[drakeon]

Can someone explain the red-eyed monk and who his dark master is?

[SiddFinch68]

Can someone explain the red-eyed monk and who his dark master is?

The red-eyed monk was an assassin for the Black Glove

[James Conniff]

As an individual Batman comic, it was a good issue. As a conclusion to a tale that was hyped and pushed and publicized, I feel it was a failure.

I wouldn't call it a failure...just immensely disappointing. I expected much more from Morrison than this simple Mystery, where the big reveal is that Jezebel was a bad guy...big shocker. And Batman is smarter than his bad guys. Okay, but wheres the big surprise, where's the ending that is supposed to blow us all away? Not to mention the ambiguous "Death" of Batman. No body kids, at worst he's got amnesia somewhere.

It was a solid Batman story, but not legendary by any means, and certainly not big enough an ending to warrant all this hype and the rebooting of the entire Bat Franchise.

The only part I enjoyed in the issue was Joker wanting to place a bet, killing a finger in the glove, and stating what we all knew would happen, That Bats would be victorious.

I'll be hanging around to see the aftermath and to pick up Gaimen's "WHttCC?" but after that, I may just stick with Detective and Dini....I needed a grand slam here from Grant but instead I feel like we got a bunt.

[drakeon]

so his eyes are red for no reason?

[SiddFinch68]

so his eyes are red for no reason?

None that was explained. His eyes were only red in the one panel where he revealed he had poisoned the tea, so I just took it as an artistic "reveal" touch.

[drakeon]

Batman #682-683 apparently reveals Batman to be fine so that he can get captured by Darkseid in Final Crisis. That just takes away from R.I.P.

[Superbeast]

None that was explained. His eyes were only red in the one panel where he revealed he had poisoned the tea, so I just took it as an artistic "reveal" touch.

So now poison changes eye colours. Brilliant.

Well since Morrison has been blathering on about "All Road's Lead To Arkham" for yonks now, I think we can safely assume Bruce ends up there for some reason and then maybe goes all Kingdom Come like, sending out Batbots and crap.

[SiddFinch68]

[QUOTE=Superbeast;7960717]So now poison changes eye colours. Brilliant. QUOTE]

Ha. I think you missed the point of what I said, maybe?

[ZT4]

Finally got my hands on the issue.

I punched the air. No tears shed, the spirt of Batman is just THAT indestructable that even implied death doesnt shake you. Months of build-up, and I get "The Prisoner" ending laced with a fitting irony to the man who would dare to think like The Joker...he suffers a similar fate for doing so.

This was probably the best way you could possibly hit home the fact Bruce Wayne has gone 'round the bend. Wayne's systematic break-down of The Black Glove coming with a price, as most of his supporting cast were sacrificial lambs to the "grid" he had set up. I know some who are fans of "Heart of Hush" will be more pissed that Bruce is definaty all about Gotham in this arc...there's an alarming lack of character accuracy just to get that point across.

As for "Thomas Wayne/ Mangro/Satan/Number One"...that's my only flaw really. First of all, this has been handled much better in "The Prisoner" (if that's possible), secondly...if ASBAR is meant to be the Adult Swim version of Batman, this whole scene played off, I swear, like an episode of Space Ghost: Coast 2 Coast. Mangrove Peirce? YOU DRINK SOME WATER WITH YOUR ASS!

I appreciate the intention of the idea though, I just didnt like the execution. The helicopter explosion made up for it, since it fit the story and where the character was at this point...and it had a nice cliffhanger too. You can make up your own mind on what drives Bruce underground...be it Final Crisis, be it Bruce becoming more "Talia-like" taking out The Black Glove at the expense of his friends, or Dr. Hurt's endorsement of The Wayne Family Redtube homepage.

The ending, as stated above me by a few, fits perfectly with the first page of RIP...which itself is a cliffhanger disguised as both a prolouge and an epilouge.

Genius.

I'll be sticking around for 2009, though whenever or not Morrison will do the same remains to be seen. I'm proud to be a Batman fan as always.

****1/5

RIP as a whole: *****1/5

[Superbeast]

[QUOTE=Superbeast;7960717]So now poison changes eye colours. Brilliant. QUOTE]

Ha. I think you missed the point of what I said, maybe?

Nah, I get it, like when they show the various Lantern symbols in the eyes of the Guardians in the GL comics.

This comic just annoyed me immensely so I'll throw as many rocks as I can at it. I don't even really understand how Jezebel Jet fits into anything other than being the patsy the CoV tried to use to break Bruce.

Also, if The Black Glove/Thomas Wayne/Mangrove Peirce was meant to be Satan himself, how come Reign In Hell has been going on but that's not at all related to this? Did Satan decide messing with Batman was that important he abandoned his post so Neron and the rest could fight over it?

[Samuraixsithlord]

Batman owning Jezebel in every way possible is something I HIGHLY enjoyed. He stole her mothers letter, he told her he knew the whole time, and when she brought up the fact that Bruce "loved" her, he told her to thank Alfred for his acting lessons. Just an all around win.

yea that was awesome. That and Joker telling Black Glove how they screwed up and how Batman would ultimately win in the end were the best parts in the issue.

I just have one question, was Dick faking the whole time so that he could get close to Black Glove and help Batman?

[DarKye]

This was freaking amazing.

The Batman definitely thinks of everything.

[Superbeast]

Please explain to me how. This makes Batman seem like a bloody idiot who was only playing a bloody idiot but is in fact a bloody idiot and also a selfish twat for putting himself and Dick through all of this crap. Even the Joker comes off as the lesser of two assholes inasmuch as he didn't try kill the CoV while Batman didn't mind Nightwing getting dragged into this mess all because he wanted to prove a point to himself and beat the Devil or whatever the crap this was meant to mean.

[kalika]

I was pretty disappointed.

It was set up very dramatically and then just delivered camp and cheese. Hurt was so over the top. Jezebel was such a trashy, catty half-assed villian -- her commentary about "There's you rich down here. And there's Black Glove rich -- oh. I'm just not tall enough" my eyes almost rolled out of my head. Bruce being so awfully cheesy about thanking Alfred for the acting lessons. Really? Even his monologue (or entry in the black case book) said he was falling for her -- before he realized she was eeeeeevil. Why on earth then, if he knew she was out to get him, why bring her into the cave? If he didn't know until she was already in the cave, then he must've felt at least SOMETHING for her to open up that part to her. Does NOT make sense.

What about Jezebel herself being awarded to her "father" as a Black Glove bet? The concept could be woven well into the story, but that reveal came so fast, it was like it was being vomited up -- and then its execution was just so damn dramatic and cheesy -- no real substance to get behind! It was so rushed. "the tear-stained letter from your mother is the only thing you hold dear and NOW I HAVE IT AND WILL NEVER GIVE IT BACK!!!!!! Muuuahahaaaa!!" "No No stop, your lying!" shrieked the girl in the cocktail dress.

i mean ------ COME ON!!! It reads like a preteenager wrote it!

Why is Alfred letting Damian drive the Batmobile? Isn't Damian, like, 12?

When Hurt tells Bruce to repeat after him, "I must put away my batman costume..." is that a throw back to something in Batman's past? It sounds familiar.

When Hurt says, "Would I bring you all this way and NOT deliver the killing blow?" I said to air,

"yes, grant yes. I think you did!"

I truly expected better from Morrison. I'll give him a chance to finish up his tale, but I'm much less hopeful than I was after #680. :frown:

(but man-bats attacking jezebel was pretty cool :tongue: )

[carswell13]

Jesus.......This final issue was amazing.
Loved the batmobile/ambulance scene.

[the goddamn batman]

Glad I skipped this whole ordeal. Pretty much what I expected; not much.

Morrison's never been especially good at ending stories. He can set em up with the best of em, but never seems to know how to knock em down.

And, yeah, I don't think it was any secret that RIP tied in to Final Crisis... didn't they say that Bruce's final fate would be seen in Final Crisis...? so, I didn't expect this issue would actually be an ending, but man, from the sound of things it really wasn't much of an ending at all.

[DarKye]

Please explain to me how. This makes Batman seem like a bloody idiot who was only playing a bloody idiot but is in fact a bloody idiot and also a selfish twat for putting himself and Dick through all of this crap. Even the Joker comes off as the lesser of two assholes inasmuch as he didn't try kill the CoV while Batman didn't mind Nightwing getting dragged into this mess all because he wanted to prove a point to himself and beat the Devil or whatever the crap this was meant to mean.

Did you say The Joker didn't try to kill the CoV? What about El Sombrero? Le Bossu's face? He left the others alive because he knew Batman would take care of them.

Also, and I'm quoting from the book:

"The truth is, I knew I was under attack but I could only guess how it would play out, trust preparation to see me through... And rely on my allies to keep up."

He didn't "put himself and Dick through all this crap", the evil men put them through it. He was guessing on the events to come and preparing more and more backups plans (like the Bat-radia or stealing the letter) as he went along. And if you remember, he was looking for information about The Black Glove during the first issues of RIP, so it's not like he was just waiting around to be attacked in order to prove something.

[A.C.R.O.N.Y.M.]

Well, colour me confused. I only just read it on the computer (comics take a while in getting to Norway) which is a real hassle, so I haven't really gone over it, but . . . . well now. As one of those people who will defend Morrison through anything - this is a bit of a tough one. Not so much because of the story as such, but because of the months and months of build-up. It was an interesting read and a very good comic, but it didnt't really deliver on any of the points that it was expected to. I'll go over it when I get the actual physical comic over the weekend, but . . . . yeah. It was weird. And strangely half-hearted. So much so that you know there at least *should* be something fishy going on. But now, Morrison isn't even definitely back on the book after Battle of the Cowl (http://www.newsarama.com/comics/110826-Didio3.html)?

I don't know about this. Morrison can write chaotic incoherent stories for as long as he wants for my buck, but I won't be sticking around to watch others clean up his mess.

[zur en arrh]

"You blinked. I switched the cups. Force of habit."

"Tell your 'Dark Master', whoever he is, to make his move soon, before I come looking for him. Tell him, he was wrong to wait until I was ready. Tell him...I look forward to facing him."

Two of my favorite lines. :biggrin:

[Shade 20x6]

What a terrible final issue. Confusing, virtually no questions answered, and we're supposed to believe that Bruce died in a helicopter explosion. Feh. If you haven't bought it yet, don't bother. Just a waste of 4 bucks and 20 minutes. :mad:

Grant Morrison is MASSIVELY overrated.

[Superbeast]

Did you say The Joker didn't try to kill the CoV? What about El Sombrero? Le Bossu's face? He left the others alive because he knew Batman would take care of them.

Also, and I'm quoting from the book:

"The truth is, I knew I was under attack but I could only guess how it would play out, trust preparation to see me through... And rely on my allies to keep up."

He didn't "put himself and Dick through all this crap", the evil men put them through it. He was guessing on the events to come and preparing more and more backups plans (like the Bat-radia or stealing the letter) as he went along. And if you remember, he was looking for information about The Black Glove during the first issues of RIP, so it's not like he was just waiting around to be attacked in order to prove something.

Joker leaving people alive unless it humors him is itself a mistake. The guy killed drive-thru attendant over nothing.

If Batman had a contingency plan that thorough planned out, it would take a lot of time and preparation. How about rather than planning to deal with it in case it happens, planning a means of appropriate action that wouldn't have put Dick at the mercy of the CoV? Don't tell me Bruce planned ahead so well he knew they wouldn't kill or torture Dick to death until Jet had revealed her identity and he could spring his masterplan. It's a plan so ridiculously overthought and Machiavellian, Dick would have every right to give Bruce the Jason Todd treatment for this crap.

[koshunter]

This issue should not have been marketed as the final issue. Even a "Continued in Final Crisis #6" would make my overall impression more favorable. Morrison set this arc up beautifully, everything seemed perfect and all we need was one proper reveal.

...and he can't even deliver that.

I'm even more frustrated because aside from "ending", none of the plots were actually tied up. Black Glove in the end seem so useless, they were just leftovers in the end to be picked up.

Here is my biggest gripe:

Why did Batman disappear? What makes what happened any more different then anywhere else. There was nothing shocking that would force him to hang up the cowl. :confused: Or did I just miss that in the issue?

[Wind-Breaker]

I was very disappointed in the issue with the lack of any answers; the corny dialog, the rushed and nonsensical plot twists with Nightwing, Jet, Hurt, etc. DC really dropped the ball on how they marketed this thing. If the story wasn't going to really have an ending and was just going to be a part Morrison's "novel" then it shouldn't have been marketed as THE issue that Morrison was building his entire run towards.

Sure they may have sold some extra issues with all the hype, but with the bait and switch they could potentially tick off a few readers and lose some sales down the road. I haven’t been this let down by a Morrison story since Planet X. But at least I can take comfort that not only did Dini just deliver on his end, he knocked it out the park with Heart of Hush.

[Adam C]

Also, if The Black Glove/Thomas Wayne/Mangrove Peirce was meant to be Satan himself, how come Reign In Hell has been going on but that's not at all related to this? Did Satan decide messing with Batman was that important he abandoned his post so Neron and the rest could fight over it?

Considering that DC has had various figures representing "the Devil" in its history, I think the formal concerns of continuity seem a bit nebulous here. Hurt's revelation is cryptic (so much I had to go back and read the pages after I it was explained to me in the CBR column) that it suggests the Devil fulfilling his classic role in religion and literature. And that role is represent human failings, by tempting people to compromise themselves ethically. In that sense Batman's dickish treatment of his friends and allies makes sense, though seems to come out of nowhere rather than properly be foreshadowed.

And that's that the big revelation that people will be talking about for years to come? It's a neat idea, but it stumbles upon the way Morrison hyped it.

[mofo]

loved the issue (and loved the vagueness of it too!)

question though
it IS bruce wayne in final crisis, but (apparently) he dissappears after this issue
but FC takes place after this...
anyone care to explain how this is gonna turn out or should we *siighh* wait for the next 2 issues?

[I am MODOK]

As an individual Batman comic, it was a good issue. As a conclusion to a tale that was hyped and pushed and publicized, I feel it was a failure.

You are correct, sir.

[koshunter]

I just asked the question but I was re-reading it and realized: What if Hurt has mind-control powers or the like?

Batman has no reason to give up the cowl and no reason to retire and yet he does. What if it's related to the part where Hurt says:

"Repeat after me: I must put away my Batman costume and retire from crime fighting".

Might have been obvious to most, but I ignored that the first time I read it.

[DarKye]

I just asked the question but I was re-reading it and realized: What if Hurt has mind-control powers or the like?

Batman has no reason to give up the cowl and no reason to retire and yet he does. What if it's related to the part where Hurt says:

"Repeat after me: I must put away my Batman costume and retire from crime fighting".

Might have been obvious to most, but I ignored that the first time I read it.

This sentence seems to echo a previous issue where Batman thought about retiring. He says exactly the same line, and Batmite reveals it was a command hidden in his head.

[Superbeast]

Considering that DC has had various figures representing "the Devil" in its history, I think the formal concerns of continuity seem a bit nebulous here. Hurt's revelation is cryptic (so much I had to go back and read the pages after I it was explained to me in the CBR column) that it suggests the Devil fulfilling his classic role in religion and literature. And that role is represent human failings, by tempting people to compromise themselves ethically. In that sense Batman's dickish treatment of his friends and allies makes sense, though seems to come out of nowhere rather than properly be foreshadowed.

And that's that the big revelation that people will be talking about for years to come? It's a neat idea, but it stumbles upon the way Morrison hyped it.

Your point is fair that the Devil in literature is the ultimate heel and device for mayhem, however you'd think a crossover about a fight for Hell's throne might have ties to a story about The Devil taking time out to torture Batman personally. Since there is the murky issue of religion in comics, hence the need for Mephistos and Dormammus and Lord Sattanish and Neron and whatnot, why crack it open and confuse matters further for Batman, especially when the whole issue is the focus of another event?

As for this somehow being a revelation that shakes 70 years worth of continuity up and the ultimate betrayal of Batman, the Devil being a dick isn't exactly a shocking revelation and him messing good guys isn't exactly a betrayal for the ages, it's kind of what the Devil is known for.

[A.C.R.O.N.Y.M.]

There really are a lot of confusing things in this issue. And what about the backwards spelling of Zur-en-arrh? I don't get the reference. I can't wait to read Tim Callahan's notes on the issue. Still, I must confess to a certain disappointment. And call me a fanatic Morrison-apologist, but there do seem to be something going on behind the scenes that somehow impairs this. The only other option would be that Morrison actually conceived of and executed something so decisively inconclusive and then hyped it as the biggest thing since the death of Superman. And that couldn't be true, could it?

[Superbeast]

loved the issue (and loved the vagueness of it too!)

question though
it IS bruce wayne in final crisis, but (apparently) he dissappears after this issue
but FC takes place after this...
anyone care to explain how this is gonna turn out or should we *siighh* wait for the next 2 issues?

Where's that Joephisto picture when I need it?

[DarKye]

There really are a lot of confusing things in this issue. And what about the backwards spelling of Zur-en-arrh? I don't get the reference.

Zur-En-Arrh seems to come from "Zorro In Arkham", the line Thomas Wayne mentions before the tragic murder.

Considering Zorro as representing "the hero" and Arkham as representing "crazyness", reading it backwards would imply putting the Arkham into Zorro, or the insanity into the hero.

Just a completely random idea though.

[koshunter]

This sentence seems to echo a previous issue where Batman thought about retiring. He says exactly the same line, and Batmite reveals it was a command hidden in his head.

Wow, I just went back over and read issue #679. I guess that answers my issue about why Bats gave up being Bats, mind-control.

So sometime between now and FC, Bruce will overpower the hypnotic suggestion planted by Hurt and return to crime-fighting again. Like the issue a bit more now that I know that but still doesn't make it a good finish.

EDIT: To DarKye: Holy crap, that makes alot of sense.

[kalika]

This sentence seems to echo a previous issue where Batman thought about retiring. He says exactly the same line, and Batmite reveals it was a command hidden in his head.


aha! that line did sound familiar. thanks for pointing out batmite's connection.

[Adam C]

Your point is fair that the Devil in literature is the ultimate heel and device for mayhem, however you'd think a crossover about a fight for Hell's throne might have ties to a story about The Devil taking time out to torture Batman personally. Since there is the murky issue of religion in comics, hence the need for Mephistos and Dormammus and Lord Sattanish and Neron and whatnot, why crack it open and confuse matters further for Batman, especially when the whole issue is the focus of another event?

Why confuse matters by dragging it in? One is a story setting up parts of DC's cosmology while the other is a story about one of its greatest heroes (supposedly) being confronted with his own dark side and failings employing a metaphoric literary figure.

As for this somehow being a revelation that shakes 70 years worth of continuity up and the ultimate betrayal of Batman, the Devil being a dick isn't exactly a shocking revelation and him messing good guys isn't exactly a betrayal for the ages, it's kind of what the Devil is known for.

That's where we agree, see my earlier comment. I think Morrison might have been aiming for how Batman has been fighting a futile struggle to eliminate and control evil, but succumbed to evil in the process. Problem is that similar variations on this idea have been touched on before, which makes it not that shocking. Additionally the build-up to it within "R.I.P." was crap. (Even though I liked the fundamental idea of him being brought to terms with his own dark side by facing down the Devil.)

[zur en arrh]

Zur-En-Arrh seems to come from "Zorro In Arkham", the line Thomas Wayne mentions before the tragic murder.

Considering Zorro as representing "the hero" and Arkham as representing "crazyness", reading it backwards would imply putting the Arkham into Zorro, or the insanity into the hero.

Just a completely random idea though.

That's actually a good idea you've got there.

[karaokefanboy]

I've been collecting comics since the late '80s/early '90s, and I can think of two specific instances that Gotham was without Bruce Wayne-as-Batman: after "Knightfall" and after "No Man's Land." The fact that he would return wasn't even controversial, just inevitable. What made the powers-that-be, from Morrison on up, think that we'd like these means to that same old end any better? At this point, it's a tired technique -- I don't see how an homage-ridden story that didn't result in Bats' death would sell any worse. In fact, tying in some of that old camp into current continuity in a clever, even trippy way might make some fans happy.

So, if we're to believe that Superman, Batman, etc. have been around for about 15 years or so (if the "Zero Hour" mentality is even still in play), in the last four years or so Bruce has "retired" at least twice. Lame.

Regarding Bruce's successors? Dick Grayson -- cool, but been there done that in "Prodigal." How many times has Tim said he doesn't want it, is that all out the window? And Jason . . . the jilted sidekick takes the mantle? We're there right now, in Captain America.

In most futuristic DC stories, Bruce is very much alive and kicking -- "Dark Knight Returns," "Kingdome Come," even "Batman Beyond." For the most part, these else-futures are beloved by fans. We WANT to see DC's most realistic hero thrive and survive, against all odds! Superman's seeming immortality is almost expected . . . that Bruce Wayne could survive HALF of these cosmic crises and all that madness -- it's impressive and elevates Batman to a super hero, even sans powers. Resisting death is the overall theme.

Batman and Robin can never die!

[BigBrotherIsWatching]

Hey y'all, first time poster, but I was reading a bunch of the posts here and my view on the issue was so diametrically opposed to everyone else's I felt like I had to offer my own two cents:

I loved it. I thought Morrison did exactly what he had promised he would: tell a "final" (but not really final) Batman story about him going up against his ultimate foe. Before I even read the issue I had heard the rumors about it being the Devil behind it all and I just groaned, thinking "He couldn't go for THAT cop-out, would he? They ruined Spider-Man by making a deal with the devil, and now Grant Morrison of all people does the same to Batman?"

But by the end of the issue, I was utterly, completely, 100% SOLD. Morrison laid everything out perfectly in favor of it, even before Hurt's little diatribe at the end, and really showed the theme he was trying to get across, the theme he'd been playing with throughout RIP. Batman's biggest problem has always been his need to try to conquer darkness by understanding it, by analyzing it, by looking at it from every angle and SOLVING it, like a real detective. But as the Joker and Hurt have devoted so much effort to explain to him, that's not the way Evil works. Batman's attempts to understand things (undergoing Thogal, studying all the ways one can be killed, immunizing himself to every known poison, undergoing experiments to understand the Joker) can only lead to one inevitable choice: join Evil, or be forever cursed by it. Which is exactly the choice Hurt offers him in the end.

Plus I just love the idea of the Joker spitting in the face of Satan himself: "Pleased to meet you, admire your work but don't. Don't call me servant." Joker trumps Deuce indeed. :cool:

Genius, IMO. But, y'know, maybe I am just some sycophantic Morrison fanatic. :wink:

[zur en arrh]

Wow, I just went back over and read issue #679. I guess that answers my issue about why Bats gave up being Bats, mind-control.

So sometime between now and FC, Bruce will overpower the hypnotic suggestion planted by Hurt and return to crime-fighting again. Like the issue a bit more now that I know that but still doesn't make it a good finish.

EDIT: To DarKye: Holy crap, that makes alot of sense.

What do you mean? I could have missed something, but how do we know he gave up being Batman? When Hurt tried getting him to give in and serve the Black Glove by threatening him with the documents, Bruce said, "Not now. Not ever."

[Splatt]

Ugh... what a piece of crap. I really don't have words that can express how big the dump Morrison took on fans is.

[koshunter]

What do you mean? I could have missed something, but how do we know he gave up being Batman? When Hurt tried getting him to give in and serve the Black Glove by threatening him with the documents, Bruce said, "Not now. Not ever."

Well, I'm assuming that's the way because no body has seen him since the helicopter crash for 6 months (!!). Which makes no sense to me because he's seen in Final Crisis which is one week after.

Also, since there's going to be a fight over his cowl, I'm assuming either he can't be Batman (really unlikely) or he retires due to Hurt's hypnotic suggestions.

[classicgmer]

Ok I'm confused here. I've read all the R.I.P issues (not bought) except for this last one so I'm kind of an outsider looking in cause I haven't reallly discussed this on message boards.


Some questions


1. The black glove is moreso an organization than one sole mastermind?


2.Jezebel Jet is a collaborator with the Black glove organization or a member?



and finally 3. Dr Hurt is the Devil incarnate!!? Seriously am I understanding this correctly? First you have Spidey in a story where he doesn't typically deal with a satanic type entity and now Batman?


I honestly think both Marvel and DC have both lost their collective minds and Quesada and Didio should have the taste slapped out of their mouths for allowing these stories.

[Kiryu]

Well, I'm assuming that's the way because no body has seen him since the helicopter crash for 6 months (!!). Which makes no sense to me because he's seen in Final Crisis which is one week after.

Also, since there's going to be a fight over his cowl, I'm assuming either he can't be Batman (really unlikely) or he retires due to Hurt's hypnotic suggestions.

Or he dies in Final Crisis 6. Which is advertised as "The Final Fate of the Dark Knight".

[Corrina]

I've been collecting comics since the late '80s/early '90s, and I can think of two specific instances that Gotham was without Bruce Wayne-as-Batman: after "Knightfall" and after "No Man's Land."


You forgot after 52 and the year-long sabbatical.

Bruce likes vacations.

[Kiryu]

Wow, I just went back over and read issue #679. I guess that answers my issue about why Bats gave up being Bats, mind-control.

So sometime between now and FC, Bruce will overpower the hypnotic suggestion planted by Hurt and return to crime-fighting again. Like the issue a bit more now that I know that but still doesn't make it a good finish.

EDIT: To DarKye: Holy crap, that makes alot of sense.

Not only that, but in the original "Robin Dies at Dawn" story, Batman says those lines after he hallucinates during a fight and nearly gets Robin killed.

[kalika]

Not only that, but in the original "Robin Dies at Dawn" story, Batman says those lines after he hallucinates during a fight and nearly gets Robin killed.

Aha! And that was the issue where Dr. Hurt made his first appearance and Batman underwent the sensory deprevation, yesh? Nice tie in.

[Kiryu]

Aha! And that was the issue where Dr. Hurt made his first appearance and Batman underwent the sensory deprevation, yesh? Nice tie in.

Indeed!

Also! Of Zur-En-Arrh comes from Zorro in Arkham...How does Dr Hurt know the phrase? Why would he use it as his trigger word?

He's the Devil, or Thomas Wayne. The more I think on this issue, the more I enjoy it.

[DarKye]

Indeed!

Also! Of Zur-En-Arrh comes from Zorro in Arkham...How does Dr Hurt know the phrase? Why would he use it as his trigger word?

He's the Devil, or Thomas Wayne. The more I think on this issue, the more I enjoy it.

This was told a couple of issues ago by batmite.. Batman "travelled" to Zur-En-Arrh due to a hallucination induced by professor Milo's gas weapon. After that, the sensory depravation happened, and Hurt found out about this word and decided to use it to switch off Batman.
The imp worked really well as an exposition tool, I swear.
I guess Batman's unconsciously used the word Zur-En-Arrh that was lying in his head during the first hallucination.


Personally, I think Zur-En-Arrh has a deeper meaning than that. I think that Zur-En-Arrh was "tattooed into place" back when the Waynes died and it's closely related to the Batman persona. (the main one, not the backup)

[Kiryu]

This was told a couple of issues ago by batmite.. Batman "travelled" to Zur-En-Arrh due to a hallucination induced by professor Milo's gas weapon. After that, the sensory depravation happened, and Hurt found out about this word and decided to use it to switch off Batman.
The imp worked really well as an exposition tool, I swear.
I guess Batman's unconsciously used the word Zur-En-Arrh that was lying in his head during the first hallucination.


Personally, I think Zur-En-Arrh has a deeper meaning than that. I think that Zur-En-Arrh was "tattooed into place" back when the Waynes died and it's closely related to the Batman persona. (the main one, not the backup)

Ah yes, I remember now. I confused my theory with what actually happened. I theorized that the Zur-En-Arrh hallucination came about from Milo's gas as a result of it being hammed into Batman's psyche, but the reverse is true.

Anyway. Dr Hurt is the Devil. Tim was so right.

Thomas Wayne or more likely, the Devil.

The Devil seems the MOST likely candidate. Rolling Stones anyone? What does the Joker say to Dr Hurt? "Pleased to meet you. Admire your work." And what does Dr Hurt say to the Black Glove? "..Your sins have found you out." What does the Black Glove specialize in? The most greedy partake in the corruption of virtue. What was the Black Glove's ultimate goal? To corrupt Batman, to turn him from a force of good to a force of evil. Batman mentions this in the flashback with the monk. He often fears he causes more harm then he does good with his Batman persona, a theme often touched on. This arc denies that utterly. Batman does SO much good that the Devil fears him, the Devil wants him. It also fits with what Batman's Ultimate mission is. "To create a world where a young Bruce Wayne's parents never would have died". With RIP, it shows that as bad as things are, they would be worse without Batman.

He is the piece that does not fit. There since the beginning. Either he is the Devil or this is a Buffy crossover and he's the first evil.

The more I think on this, the more I like it. It's not the ending I wanted. It's not the massive shakeup 70 years in the making. But it is a damn fine, if vastly over-hyped story. Certainly leaps and bounds over Hush and a lot of what's come before it. Dini's run is a lot of fun as well, but I never frothed at the mouth in anticipation for it like I did this. Overall, I'm a satisfied customer.

[zur en arrh]

I never hated the idea of Hurt being the Devil himself, I just thought it could be better than that. But the theories you guys give are enough to make me love the idea of Hurt being the Devil.

[Zuzu]

What does the Joker say to Dr Hurt? "Pleased to meet you. Admire your work."

That's what I was thinking since I read that line... He's the devil or non-denominational most evil thing in DC universe.

[bmattingly32]

So... How about that apology?


I personally, having read it again today think that BG is Joe Chill.

And I qoute, "I am the whole in things Bruce, the ENEMY, the piece that can never fit, THERE SINCE THE BEGINNING."

Then in the very last panel, who do we see watching over the Wayne family?

Why I do believe it is Joe Chill, aka. Black Glove.

[Kiryu]

I never hated the idea of Hurt being the Devil himself, I just thought it could be better than that. But the theories you guys give are enough to make me love the idea of Hurt being the Devil.

I honestly wanted him to be Thomas Wayne. Just because the fallout from that would be out of this world and would honestly create new storytelling avenues for Batman, ones we had NEVER seen. But I'm willing to not hold a grudge because this isn't the story I wanted, more importantly then that, it's a GREAT story. With the only flaw being Batman's vanishing act with the helicopter, which is only stupid because we know he lives and we know he dies or gets ruined or whatever in Final Crisis.

But Tim really hit all the details(in which the Devil lies), and this issue makes it so obvious.

I wonder though, could Thomas Wayne BE in Hell? Could the Devil be wearing him?

[Zuzu]

What does the Joker say to Dr Hurt? "Pleased to meet you. Admire your work."

That's what I was thinking since I read that line... He's the devil or non-denominational most evil thing in DC universe.

I've been following RIP the whole time, but I just joined this board today so I can decompress and get everyone else's thoughts on everything that I read.

[BigTopTony]

If Hurt is supposed to be the devil I think that's all kinds of silly that I personally don't think works in a Batman comic and really jumps the comic shark.

And the "I am your father" scene did nothing but make me think Morrison had Empire Strikes Back running in the background as he wrote the issue.

Sure, leave things open ended, it's an on going comic of course there's not going to be closure, but a little resolution of the arc would have been nice, especially considering all the hype that's surrounded this story.

But I guess it gives DC what they want -- a big event, leading into another big event -- the battle for the cowl, leading to another big event, the return of Bruce Wayne as Batman. Yawn.

How about getting some writers who can write compelling stories with Bruce Wayne as Batman? Try constructing a little drama with the parts that already in place with good writing instead of 'event' comic story telling. Let the 'event' be that you can write a classic comic not that you kill this one, then that one, or maybe he's gonna die, or they're coming back from the dead, etc, etc.

[Kiryu]

That's what I was thinking since I read that line... He's the devil or non-denominational most evil thing in DC universe.

I've been following RIP the whole time, but I just joined this board today so I can decompress and get everyone else's thoughts on everything that I read.

It makes even more sense giving the whole "Death and Rebirth" theme of the Thogal. Batman has to DIE before he can even get a glimpse of that Ultimate Evil. This is the ultimate deconstruction and breakdown of WHO Batman is.

Grant confirms that Batman does more good then he does evil. We know this because Batman is such a force for good The Devil FEARS him.

It confirms that Batman is the ULTIMATE BADASS! When he does, what does he see? Another enemy in which to prepare himself against. And he does just that. Victory in the preparation. Dr Hurt, The Devil in the Details, as Tim said, claims he "Knows Batman better then anyone" and attacks him through the details of his life.

@Bigtop Tony

I feel this wasn't an event. Was it marketed as such? Absolutely. If it weren't for Final Crisis and Battle for the Cowl, do I think the Black Glove story would have ended here? No, absolutely not. Grant told an amazing story about Bruce Wayne as Batman. Every issue of his run was that.

And there was resolution. The Ultimate Evil, the Black Glove, played his hand. And Batman had a better one. Because Batman thinks of EVERYTHING.

[bmattingly32]

So... How about that apology?


I personally, having read it again today think that BG is Joe Chill.

And I qoute, "I am the whole in things Bruce, the ENEMY, the piece that can never fit, THERE SINCE THE BEGINNING."

Then in the very last panel, who do we see watching over the Wayne family?

Why I do believe it is Joe Chill, aka. Black Glove.
I want this on this page, so that everyone can know that BG is JC.

[zur en arrh]

I honestly wanted him to be Thomas Wayne. Just because the fallout from that would be out of this world and would honestly create new storytelling avenues for Batman, ones we had NEVER seen. But I'm willing to not hold a grudge because this isn't the story I wanted, more importantly then that, it's a GREAT story. With the only flaw being Batman's vanishing act with the helicopter, which is only stupid because we know he lives and we know he dies or gets ruined or whatever in Final Crisis.

But Tim really hit all the details(in which the Devil lies), and this issue makes it so obvious.

I wonder though, could Thomas Wayne BE in Hell? Could the Devil be wearing him?

This line, this comment you just made, it's simply jaw dropping to me because it makes so much sense. Just like he skinned Mangrove alive and wore him...how fitting is it for him to do it to Bruce's own father?

[Kiryu]

This line, this comment you just made, it's simply jaw dropping to me because it makes so much sense. Just like he skinned Mangrove alive and wore him...how fitting is it for him to do it to Bruce's own father?

This also brings into question the documents Dr Hurt released to the public. Could they be real? Could Chill have screwed up not only in not killing Bruce, but in killing Thomas Wayne?

The rational part of me says no, based on Hurt saying "At great expense" implying they spent a lot of money falsifying the documents. Or it could be they spent a lot of money bringing them to light.

It's not the earth shattering Bat-Kick to the nuts that, say, Alfred being Batman's father was. But this was a great run and a great story.

[Vee]

What Bruce said before he punched the glass in the helicopter, "Was that fear in his eyes?" That line resonates with me because it would make it seem that Dr. Hurt was just another mastermind who's final card was overcome by Batman in the end. If it really was Dr. Hurt just playing a little game, then how was he able to come up with documents attacking Bruce's parents and Alfred, unless they were just fake and he actually thought they could of swayed Batman's resolution.

If it is the Devil like some people were saying, why would Bruce sense fear in his eyes? Is it because in the end he couldn't break Batman and he actually fears someone with such a strong resolve as Batman/Bruce Wayne or is it because of something else?

Those are some of the things that come to mind, in the end. Personally, I thought this was a great story nothing spectacular but it really put Bruce Wayne and especially Batman in perspective.

[DarKye]

I wonder though, could Thomas Wayne BE in Hell? Could the Devil be wearing him?

Holy crap. I just realized something.

The Joker: "and the qualifications for fingerhood are? you have to be rich? moi? I've flushed more money down the toilet than your dead man's hand could carry."

I may be being too literal here, but I think you're on to something.

[Raker616]

I don't know what I enjoy more, Morrison screwing over a ton of Batman fans or reading as his apologist work overtime to try and spin this crap as good writting what a freaking joke.

[Kiryu]

What Bruce said before he punched the glass in the helicopter, "Was that fear in his eyes?" That line resonates with me because it would make it seem that Dr. Hurt was just another mastermind who's final card was overcome by Batman in the end.

If it is the Devil like some people were saying, why would Bruce sense fear in his eyes? Is it because in the end he couldn't break Batman and he actually fears someone with such a strong resolve as Batman/Bruce Wayne or is it because of something else?

Those are some of the things that come to mind, in the end. Personally, I thought this was a great story nothing spectacular but it really put Bruce Wayne and especially Batman in perspective.

It's because Batman thinks of everything. Like I said, it's Morrison telling us how much of a force for good Batman is. Without Batman, as I hope we see in Battle for the Cowl, Gotham would be an even more wretched breeding ground of corruption and horror. What happened when Bruce Wayne's Parents died? He lost his innocence? Is not the loss of innocence something the Devil loves to take part in? What is Batman's Ultimate Mission? Creating a world where a young Bruce Wayne's parents would never be gunned down in an alley.

Morrison obliterates the idea that Batman causes more harm then good simply by existing. The devil fears him because he's stemming the tide of horror in Gotham.

@Raker

One does not need to be an "apologist" to enjoy a story. I'm really sorry that you were so excited and so hopeful that this would be a peace of shit that had everyone who ever like Grant Morrison go "Well this guy obviously sucks!". Why you care that people enjoy the story, I don't know. I don't know why people rant and rave about Red Hulk either. But I'm not in that thread every month call out Loeb "apologists" for his crap. So instead of hoping for bad stories, go read good ones. I've loved Morrison's run, I've also loved Dini's and I'm not going to crap on one to make the other seem great. RIP was certainly overhyped, but what isn't these days(Aside from Sinestro Corps), but that doesn't make it not a good story. Maybe not for you, but your qualification of "good" and "bad" is not absolute.

Also, if we enjoyed the story, how were we screwed out of anything? I paid money for a good read, I got one. If you bought the issue, then you were the one screwed over, but I enjoy this issue more then you being screwed by the bald guy. I mean honestly, there isn't a writer alive I like so much that I would create and "spin" a reason to like his work. No one is perfect. I'll say it here, I thought the ending to New X-Men was complete friggin garbage. Xorn being Magneto, Magneto being a drug addict pedophile. Garbage. This? This I actually enjoyed.

[zur en arrh]

What Bruce said before he punched the glass in the helicopter, "Was that fear in his eyes?" That line resonates with me because it would make it seem that Dr. Hurt was just another mastermind who's final card was overcome by Batman in the end.

If it is the Devil like some people were saying, why would Bruce sense fear in his eyes? Is it because in the end he couldn't break Batman and he actually fears someone with such a strong resolve as Batman/Bruce Wayne or is it because of something else?

Those are some of the things that come to mind, in the end. Personally, I thought this was a great story nothing spectacular but it really put Bruce Wayne and especially Batman in perspective.

I think he would be scared because Batman is the ULTIMATE noble soul.

"Rules are Rules. The house always wins."

"The Black Glove always wins."

These words coming from Hurt, to me, support his identity being the Devil. No one has ever beaten the Devil, he is the ultimate evil. Never has he been overcome. Yet here is this man before him. A man that he tried his hardest to mentally break to the point of no return. And this man is before him, ready to deliver a crushing blow. And it scares the hell out of him.

"The Black Glove always wins."

I picture him saying it in a soft, to himself sort of way, trying to reassure himself that he cannot be beaten. Yet still, here is this man, that simply cannot be outsmarted, even by the devil himself, and is fully prepared to bring him to justice.

That's how I see it anyway.

[Vee]

Kiryu and Zur en arrh, you both make great points and are probably right.

I agree, that's why I think that it really does put Batman into perspective. Whether you think he's just a psychotic in a Bat custom or if he's just a noble person trying to do right in a cruel world. It touches on both views which could be considered, right or wrong.

And who better than the ultimate evil, the Devil himself, to show us what Batman is all about and how strong his resolve really is.

I can see why some people might be disappointed or might not like R.I.P. at all, but all things considered I thought it was a great story considering how far Bruce was forced to look into himself.

[Chiroptera]

Well, I can't say I'm surprised. This story jumped the shark for me with the Hobo vision quest.

I'm glad I stopped paying for this at third installment of the series and my LCS owner has been kind enough to simply let me read them in the store.

This is why I disapprove as Morrison on any main stream, in continuity book. He writes brilliant novel stories.

When the story has to keep going, and can't have a definitive ending, Morrison seems to lose the Oomph he normally has.
When you have to break his works up into monthly installments, they become something tedious and wholly unenjoyable unless you just like the suspenseful wait for the next issue.

All-Star Superman was great. But, for me, his run on Batman has been so bad that he's the only writer to ever make me drop a Batman title. Though I think he's a talented writer, I honestly hope that he doesn't get to come back to Batman and I hope this whole thing get's swept away. I'd love to see him allowed to do some more else-worlds stories like All-Star Supes, but this Batman fiasco has convinced me that I'm not going to be reading anymore mainstream in-continuity stories with Mr. Morrison's name on the cover

[pariah-1972]

Great issue but we didn't get any answers to any of the long running questions (like who is Dr Hurt really and who is Jezebel jet) but otherwise this was pretty coherent for a Grant Morrison book.

Question: what was with the penthouse shot ? was that Bruce's penthouse and why did they show that for instead of the mansion? i can't remember him using that (save for Batman and the Outsiders but he wasn't even there then)


some of the stuff Joker said was strange even for him but he does write a mean Joker who can be creepy and weird without losing his sense of humor.

[the goddamn batman]

Rolling Stones anyone? What does the Joker say to Dr Hurt? "Pleased to meet you. Admire your work."

Absolutely a Stones reference.

[koshunter]

Wow, you guys are making me like the issue =P

Where does Tim talk about the devil? Can someone give me a reference point, I seem to be skimming all over it.

Also, is anybody more excited for the fate of Batman (hopefully with answers) after reading this thread or is it just me?

[md62]

I was underwhelmed by this story but if Dick becomes Batman again for a short time I won't mind. But if Jason ends up as Batman - arrrghhh.

[zur en arrh]

Wow, you guys are making me like the issue =P

Where does Tim talk about the devil? Can someone give me a reference point, I seem to be skimming all over it.

Also, is anybody more excited for the fate of Batman (hopefully with answers) after reading this thread or is it just me?

It's definitely not just you. Reading these threads always gets me more excited for the next issues.

[Kiryu]

Wow, you guys are making me like the issue =P

Where does Tim talk about the devil? Can someone give me a reference point, I seem to be skimming all over it.

Also, is anybody more excited for the fate of Batman (hopefully with answers) after reading this thread or is it just me?

It's on his blog, I think he links to it in his reviews.

Ah well, I have the power of google at my fingertips. Not a backup human operating system, but it'll do.

http://geniusboyfiremelon.blogspot.com/search/label/m-bats

[DarKye]

Question: what was with the penthouse shot ? was that Bruce's penthouse and why did they show that for instead of the mansion? i can't remember him using that (save for Batman and the Outsiders but he wasn't even there then)

Yeah. It was his penthouse. He has a secondary batcave in a secret basement there, which hasn't really been used all that much lately.

I guess it was just to prove that Batman had plans even in case his main Batcave/Batcomputer was compromised.

[zur en arrh]

Yeah. It was his penthouse. He has a secondary batcave in a secret basement there, which hasn't really been used all that much lately.

I guess it was just to prove that Batman had plans even in case his main Batcave/Batcomputer was compromised.

I think you got it right. He probably had it programmed to the Penthouse Cave instead, because he knew that The Black Glove already had access to the Bat Cave.

[Mercurialblonde]

The New Gods wear fleshsuits too though. Hurt could be one of Darkseid's minions, and Darkseid is the one who is really wearing the black glove. It would make sense. In Final Crisis he goes on and on about how in order to come into a fleshsuit he needs to corrupt a noble soul. Could RIP have been his attempt to enter Bruce Wayne?

Darkseid hates Batman with a passion, but he also fears Batman. It will be interesting to see this tied up into FC and Batman's current predicament there.

[The Xenos]

Well, that was... confusing. Somewhat disapointing in it's lack of a clear ending, but I shoulda known with Morrison. So.. we still are stuck with out theories of what happened and who black glove was. I'll bite and go with the devil, or rather an embodiment of all evil and corruption. He dresses up as Bruce's father and/or the body double guy who killed Mayhew.

"I am the hole in things, Bruce, the enemy, the piece that can never fit, there since the beginning." "..Unless Batman agreees to serve the Black Glove. And willingly dedicates his life to the corruption of virtue. Ready to deal?"

And of course Batman refuses. And takes him down, with no bodies to be found.

So we still really don't know where Bruce Wayne is or who is Batman in Final Crisis.

Oh and we find out where Zur En Arrh comes from. Zorro in Arkham, which were some of the last words Thomas Wayne said to his son.

[koshunter]

The New Gods wear fleshsuits too though. Hurt could be one of Darkseid's minions, and Darkseid is the one who is really wearing the black glove. It would make sense. In Final Crisis he goes on and on about how in order to come into a fleshsuit he needs to corrupt a noble soul. Could RIP have been his attempt to enter Bruce Wayne?

Darkseid hates Batman with a passion, but he also fears Batman. It will be interesting to see this tied up into FC and Batman's current predicament there.

Corrupt a noble soul? Woah, woah, woah... mind=blown! :eek:

Also, next Batman issue is next week, do you guys think we'll get any answers in that? It's written by Morrison too I'm guessing?

[Vee]

Great issue but we didn't get any answers to any of the long running questions (like who is Dr Hurt really and who is Jezebel jet) but otherwise this was pretty coherent for a Grant Morrison book.

Question: what was with the penthouse shot ? was that Bruce's penthouse and why did they show that for instead of the mansion? i can't remember him using that (save for Batman and the Outsiders but he wasn't even there then)


some of the stuff Joker said was strange even for him but he does write a mean Joker who can be creepy and weird without losing his sense of humor.

Didn't Jezebel end up being just another rich brat member of the Black Glove, who inflitrated Bruce personally but who Bruce had already begun doubting a while back? I'm guessing it was the Black Glove who also put her in power of her own country after the death of her so called "father".

I also remember that the Penthouse you're referring to, was were Bruce was taken to when he got his back crushed by the Second Batman the huge one, in Grant Morisson's first few issues.

[zur en arrh]

Didn't Jezebel end up being just another rich brat member of the Black Glove, who inflitrated Bruce personally but who Bruce had already begun doubting a while back? I'm guessing it was the Black Glove who also put her in power of her own country after the death of her so called "father".

I also remember that the Penthouse you're referring to, was were Bruce was taken to when he got his back crushed by the Second Batman the huge one in Grant Morisson's first few issues.

Right you are. I loved that issue. It was when Bruce started putting the pieces together that the "ghost" Batmen were real and there would be a third.

[Mercurialblonde]

Well, that was... confusing. Somewhat disapointing in it's lack of a clear ending, but I shoulda known with Morrison. So.. we still are stuck with out theories of what happened and who black glove was. I'll bite and go with the devil, or rather an embodiment of all evil and corruption. He dresses up as Bruce's father and/or the body double guy who killed Mayhew.

"I am the hole in things, Bruce, the enemy, the piece that can never fit, there since the beginning." "..Unless Batman agreees to serve the Black Glove. And willingly dedicates his life to the corruption of virtue. Ready to deal?"

And of course Batman refuses. And takes him down, with no bodies to be found.

So we still really don't know where Bruce Wayne is or who is Batman in Final Crisis.

Oh and we find out where Zur En Arrh comes from. Zorro in Arkham, which were some of the last words Thomas Wayne said to his son.

We know Batman survices because he is writing about it in the Black Casebook, and the first panel of RIP is the last panel, "Batman and Robin will never die!" or something to that extent.

The Zorro in Arkham thing really unravels a lot. That's the trigger that was put in, and it shows that what happened to Batman was part of a larger plot to engineer Batman, and then take revenge on him. I really do think this is going to tie into Darkseid more and more. He's the only thing I can think of who could do a plan like this, and it would make sense with FC.

But I think Batman is going to defeat Darkseid in FC.

[Kiryu]

The New Gods wear fleshsuits too though. Hurt could be one of Darkseid's minions, and Darkseid is the one who is really wearing the black glove. It would make sense. In Final Crisis he goes on and on about how in order to come into a fleshsuit he needs to corrupt a noble soul. Could RIP have been his attempt to enter Bruce Wayne?

Darkseid hates Batman with a passion, but he also fears Batman. It will be interesting to see this tied up into FC and Batman's current predicament there.

That's a pretty solid idea.

[zur en arrh]

I love the "Zorro in Arkham" thing. The fact that The Black Glove was around back then, and applied the trigger that long ago is amazing. The only thing is, why? Why would they place the trigger in Bruce back then? They couldn't have known that the little boy whose parents just got murdered would turn into a spandex wearing vigilante.

[Kiryu]

I love the "Zorro in Arkham" thing. The fact that The Black Glove was around back then, and applied the keyword that long ago is amazing. The only thing is, why? Why would they place the keyword in Bruce back then? They couldn't have known that the little boy whose parents just got murdered would turn into a spandex wearing vigilante.

I'm almost certain the keyword wasn't implanted there. It happened during the Isolation Experiment. I think while Bruce was tripping balls he probably said "Zorro in Arkham", in response to his isolation/containment. But since he was so screwed up it probably came out "Zuuurrr-en--arrrhhhhh" and it made Hurt giggle/Since he's Thomas Wayne/The Devil he remembered the Zorro in Arkham bit and decided to use it as his trigger/

[Kiryu]

We know Batman survices because he is writing about it in the Black Casebook, and the first panel of RIP is the last panel, "Batman and Robin will never die!" or something to that extent.

The Zorro in Arkham thing really unravels a lot. That's the trigger that was put in, and it shows that what happened to Batman was part of a larger plot to engineer Batman, and then take revenge on him. I really do think this is going to tie into Darkseid more and more. He's the only thing I can think of who could do a plan like this, and it would make sense with FC.

But I think Batman is going to defeat Darkseid in FC.

We also KNOW he survives, because, well, he is in Final Crisis. Grant Morrison has expressly stated that Batman in that story IS Bruce Wayne. There is no wedge room, this is fact.

[zur en arrh]

I'm almost certain the keyword wasn't implanted there. It happened during the Isolation Experiment. I think while Bruce was tripping balls he probably said "Zorro in Arkham", in response to his isolation/containment. But since he was so screwed up it probably came out "Zuuurrr-en--arrrhhhhh" and it made Hurt giggle/Since he's Thomas Wayne/The Devil he remembered the Zorro in Arkham bit and decided to use it as his trigger/

That makes more sense. Intriguing either way.

[Mercurialblonde]

I love the "Zorro in Arkham" thing. The fact that The Black Glove was around back then, and applied the trigger that long ago is amazing. The only thing is, why? Why would they place the trigger in Bruce back then? They couldn't have known that the little boy whose parents just got murdered would turn into a spandex wearing vigilante.

No that's the thing. They DID know. They PRODUCED Batman. Remember in RIP when crazy Batman is staring at the grid, and realizing that the miracle of crime alley was no miracle. That it was part of a larger engineered design.

Black Glove BUILT Batman into a noble hero, a noble soul...so that they could then however many years later, corrupt it.

And I think young Bruce when he says "what?" like that's older Bruce kind of realizing that he's fucked.

Batman may have crashed the helicopter, but the events of RIP have kind of revealed he's done for.

My theory though is that Bruce finds a way to triumph, and he is the one who beats Darkseid in FC. But then the evil behind Darkseid appears and it's game over, and Bruce goes out like Barry did in Crisis on infinite earths, BECAUSE of the events that happened in RIP. Which is exactly what Morrison has said the entire time.

[Kiryu]

No that's the thing. They DID know. They PRODUCED Batman. Remember in RIP when crazy Batman is staring at the grid, and realizing that the miracle of crime alley was no miracle. That it was part of a larger engineered design.

Black Glove BUILT Batman into a noble hero, a noble soul...so that they could then however many years later, corrupt it.

And I think young Bruce when he says "what?" like that's older Bruce kind of realizing that he's fucked.

Batman may have crashed the helicopter, but the events of RIP have kind of revealed he's done for.

My theory though is that Bruce finds a way to triumph, and he is the one who beats Darkseid in FC. But then the evil behind Darkseid appears and it's game over, and Bruce goes out like Barry did in Crisis on infinite earths, BECAUSE of the events that happened in RIP. Which is exactly what Morrison has said the entire time.

More very very solid thinking. I'm digging it.

[zur en arrh]

If this is the true plot here, and the point of the Black Glove was that they were responsible for Batman, then there is your huge reveal. Everything that Bruce created Batman upon, that entire foundation, it has been shattered. It's a big slap in the face to everything Batman thought he was. If this is true, then I would say it is the biggest reveal in 70 years, and the fact that it is not blatantly spelled out in your face makes it that much better.

[Mercurialblonde]

If this is the true plot here, and the point of the Black Glove was that they were responsible for Batman, then there is your huge reveal. Everything that Bruce created Batman upon, that entire foundation, it has been shattered. It's a big slap in the face to everything Batman thought he was. If this is true, then I would say it is the biggest reveal in 70 years, and the fact that it is not blatantly spelled out in your face makes it that much better.

It would also explain why in 666 Damian has to make a deal with the devil to become Batman. He has to jack into that archetecture, and so he makes a deal with the black glove to protect gotham, and that's why you see him fighting the black glove in the future. In some ways 666 is the redemption story, and it happened way back then.

In a lot of ways I feel like 666 is the keystone to Morrison's entire run here, and I also think it is an incredible issue.

[Kiryu]

If this is the true plot here, and the point of the Black Glove was that they were responsible for Batman, then there is your huge reveal. Everything that Bruce created Batman upon, that entire foundation, it has been shattered. It's a big slap in the face to everything Batman thought he was. If this is true, then I would say it is the biggest reveal in 70 years, and the fact that it is not blatantly spelled out in your face makes it that much better.

According to Hurt, Joe Chill was supposed to kill Bruce as well though.

So, the Miracle on Crime Alley remains a miracle. If the Black Glove hired Chill, they intended for Bruce to die as well.

Now, if Bruce actually tormented Chill into shooting himself(not likely, considering Chill and Selina speak in Whatever Happened to Caped Crusader) only to learn Chill spared him. That could shake him up a little bit.

[Mercurialblonde]

According to Hurt, Joe Chill was supposed to kill Bruce as well though.

So, the Miracle on Crime Alley remains a miracle. If the Black Glove hired Chill, they intended for Bruce to die as well.

Now, if Bruce actually tormented Chill into shooting himself(not likely, considering Chill and Selina speak in Whatever Happened to Caped Crusader) only to learn Chill spared him. That could shake him up a little bit.

They hired Chill because they knew because of Chill's son that he wouldn't be able to kill Bruce, and that Bruce would survive.

Remember Dr. Hurt is NOT the Black Glove. He's just a finger.

[DragoLord09]

No that's the thing. They DID know. They PRODUCED Batman. Remember in RIP when crazy Batman is staring at the grid, and realizing that the miracle of crime alley was no miracle. That it was part of a larger engineered design.

Black Glove BUILT Batman into a noble hero, a noble soul...so that they could then however many years later, corrupt it.

And I think young Bruce when he says "what?" like that's older Bruce kind of realizing that he's fucked.

Batman may have crashed the helicopter, but the events of RIP have kind of revealed he's done for.

My theory though is that Bruce finds a way to triumph, and he is the one who beats Darkseid in FC. But then the evil behind Darkseid appears and it's game over, and Bruce goes out like Barry did in Crisis on infinite earths, BECAUSE of the events that happened in RIP. Which is exactly what Morrison has said the entire time.

I may be new here, but reading all of these theories about creating a noble soul for new gods with old bodies, I go with this because of the way everybody is going with mystics, angels, and demons fighting for the right of magic use, space-born warriors fighting against ancient evils in deep space, new kryptonians, manazons, and batmen popping up everywhere, Monitors being monitored themselves, the past, present, and future in flux, old tales meant to be undisturbed have been found, and the world and universe in general going to figurative and literal Hell with New Gods fighting for a new home, I can't help but have a disturbing thought about everything we know about our heroes...

What if every hero we know and love was created, formed, and manufactured not to prevent evil, but to eventually BECOME IT!!!:eek: :eek: :eek:

[Mercurialblonde]

I may be new here, but reading all of these theories about creating a noble soul for new gods with old bodies, I go with this because of the way everybody is going with mystics, angels, and demons fight for the right of magic use, space-born warriors fighting against ancient evils in deep space, new kryptonians, manazons, and batmen popping up everywhere, Monitors being monitored themselves, and the world and universe in general going to figurative and litteral Hell with New Gods fighting for a new home, I can't help but have a disturbing thought about everything we know about our heroes...

What if every hero we know and love was created, formed, and manufactured not to prevent evil, but to eventually BECOME IT!!!:eek: :eek: :eek:

That's sort of the premise behind Final Crisis, no? ;)

[Kiryu]

They hired Chill because they knew because of Chill's son that he wouldn't be able to kill Bruce, and that Bruce would survive.

Remember Dr. Hurt is NOT the Black Glove. He's just a finger.

I dunno that I agree with that last bit. Everything Grant has told us through the story indicates that Dr Hurt IS the Main Man. The guy behind the scenes. The Devil on Earth. Joker tells us "Then I found out who Dr Hurt really is and why he hates you so much" which I feel signifies his importance.

I do think you may be onto something with The Black Glove anticipating Chill would choke though.

[DragoLord09]

That's sort of the premise behind Final Crisis, no? ;)

If that's the true truth about the heroes of the DC Multiverse, then that means about 3/4 of a century fact has just been turned on its head!!!:eek: ...

Or has it:confused: :confused:

[ultramandingo]

................i figure bruces brain got screwed up after 30 minutes in the dirt and the whole escape deal was a crazy dream - dick got lobotomized , alfred is all burned up , robin got mimed to death and funnybook website posters types got all worked up - hes gonna get duged up and pooped on next issue

[Dr. Chaos]

..So some people are theorizing Bruce has survived all this only to have Darkseid deliver the real final blow (until someone gets bored or nostalgic and wants Bruce back in the driver's seat) in a non Batman related title?

Well, thats kind of a bummer.

Not unlikely though, sounds like FC will figure into the recap issue about Bruce's life.

Overall, not a big fan of RIP, alot of it I think went over my head but I will say I enjoyed seeing Damian run the Joker off of the road quite abit.

Well, that and the Nightwing page with him holding the you know what was great.

Fan wanking at it's finest.

[TimothyCallahan]

For what it's worth, I've posted my annotations for this issue:
http://geniusboyfiremelon.blogspot.com/2008/11/batman-rip-part-vi-batman-681.html

But you guys have done a great job discussion possible theories that I don't even bother to get into.

[DragoLord09]

I can't help but wonder if Grant not only turned the Batman premise on its head, but the entire DC Universe as well?

[Mercurialblonde]

..So some people are theorizing Bruce has survived all this only to have Darkseid deliver the real final blow (until someone gets bored or nostalgic and wants Bruce back in the driver's seat) in a non Batman related title?
.


Well Morrison is writing both of them, and I think Last Rites is going to explain within the context of the Bat titles what is going to happen in FC. Which I think is that he's going to actually beat Darkseid, but we're going to find out that Darkseid is just an affect of what's really happening in FC, which is related to that Mandraak being that Superman found in Superman Beyond. Would not be shocked if Mandraak comes in through something to do with Bruce.

I think at the end of the day Morrison is setting Bruce up to go down in a very legendary heroic way. But in a way that means he can't really be the Batman for awhile.

It's going to be really interesting. Fortunately the next couple issues of Batman and FC are all coming up within the next month. Neil Gaiman's story comes in...January? So yeah, a lot is still to happen.

[koshunter]

I'm so hoping that Morrison takes the route of Darkseid taking over Bruce. That would be amazing and a perfect set-up.

Although it brings up one point which I can't seem to properly address:

Final Crisis #3-4 Spoilers:





****Why did Darkseid bother switching bodies to Dan Turpin then?****

Or was it just temporary in the grand scheme of things?

[zur en arrh]

Sorry to go sort of off topic, but are there any MUST READ tie ins for Final Crisis involving Batman? Because all I have read are FC 1-4.

[Mercurialblonde]

I'm so hoping that Morrison takes the route of Darkseid taking over Bruce. That would be amazing and a perfect set-up.

Although it brings up one point which I can't seem to properly address:

Final Crisis #3-4 Spoilers:





****Why did Darkseid bother switching bodies to Dan Turpin then?****

Or was it just temporary in the grand scheme of things?

I don't know. We're still sort of unraveling Darkseid's plan, or whoever is in charge's plan. Bruce could be the vessel for something even more evil than Darkseid though. Who knows? It will be interesting to find out just what is going on with Bat's in FC.

[Mercurialblonde]

Sorry to go sort of off topic, but are there any MUST READ tie ins for Final Crisis involving Batman? Because all I have read are FC 1-4.

No. The tie-ins for FC are mostly just really good stories that take place within the FC world. But I don't think any of them HAVE to be read. Aside from Superman Beyond. Which I think is really important. But it doesn't have to do with Batman, yet.

[koshunter]

Sorry to go sort of off topic, but are there any MUST READ tie ins for Final Crisis involving Batman? Because all I have read are FC 1-4.

Nope, however I recommend you read Requiem/Submit/Resist as those expand on the actual story of the series as opposed to the other tie-ins.

Edit: Also, what Mercurialblonde said.

[Mat001]

..So some people are theorizing Bruce has survived all this only to have Darkseid deliver the real final blow (until someone gets bored or nostalgic and wants Bruce back in the driver's seat) in a non Batman related title?

Well, thats kind of a bummer.

Not unlikely though, sounds like FC will figure into the recap issue about Bruce's life.

Overall, not a big fan of RIP, alot of it I think went over my head but I will say I enjoyed seeing Damian run the Joker off of the road quite abit.

Well, that and the Nightwing page with him holding the you know what was great.

Fan wanking at it's finest.

Morrison has told us that "Final Crisis" will tie into his book, which is what the next two issues are. Bruce is the Batman in FC, because in issue two, he calls Superman by his civilian name. Dick, Jason and Tim would not go so far as to do that. Bruce will because he does. Daimen probably doesn't even know Superman's real name, same with Hush. Two, Dick and Tim are seen in issue three during the Article X draft scene. Both in their own costumes.

[vitruvian]

Well, I'm assuming that's the way because no body has seen him since the helicopter crash for 6 months (!!). Which makes no sense to me because he's seen in Final Crisis which is one week after.

Also, since there's going to be a fight over his cowl, I'm assuming either he can't be Batman (really unlikely) or he retires due to Hurt's hypnotic suggestions.

Well, if nobody sees him for six months after the crash, and it's Bruce in Final Crisis, then Final Crisis happens at least six months after the crash, right?

[Kiryu]

Well, if nobody sees him for six months after the crash, and it's Bruce in Final Crisis, then Final Crisis happens at least six months after the crash, right?

"aside from rumors."

Morrison states that RIP is like...maybe a week or so before Final Crisis. That timeline could have changed, but I don't think the Batman and Robin who bust in on Le Bossu are Bruce and Tim(Maybe Tim, Hopefully Tim).

Perhaps Batman suited up one last time to help with the God mystery. He doesn't really leave the Hall of Justice.

[DarKye]

"aside from rumors."

Morrison states that RIP is like...maybe a week or so before Final Crisis. That timeline could have changed, but I don't think the Batman and Robin who bust in on Le Bossu are Bruce and Tim(Maybe Tim, Hopefully Tim).

Perhaps Batman suited up one last time to help with the God mystery. He doesn't really leave the Hall of Justice.

This is most likely correct.

Although it's worth mentioning that FC seems to have lasted only one DCU month so far. Unless there's another time jump or the battle for the cowl is a reaaaaaally long one, there's some months there to fill up.

[the goddamn batman]

For what it's worth, I've posted my annotations for this issue:
http://geniusboyfiremelon.blogspot.com/2008/11/batman-rip-part-vi-batman-681.html


Kind of a dick to Tony aren't you?

[TimothyCallahan]

I'm a bit snarky about some of the art in this issue, absolutely. A dick to Tony? Not so much.

[Benjamin Ong]

Well, now that it's all over (for now)...

I've not gotten this last issue of RIP yet but thank God for the internet! :) Anyway, I still look forward to reading it this weekend.

Now, the only Grant Morrison arc that I did not get was the one prior to RIP. Was it essential reading? How did that tie in to RIP, if applicable?

Thanks, guys.