Superman: Our Long National Nightmare Continues

[WorstThingUS]

If this week's Lying In The Gutters is to be believed not only was James Robinson gone, but in his place was to be none other than Mark Waid and my geek skin tingles at the thought of him on Superman. Granted, the Brave & The Bold storyline ran a little long, but when it was good, it was great. Like Gail Simone, Waid doesn't see continuity as a burden but a toybox of concepts to played with and I'd love to see what he'd do not just with Superman, but the upcoming Superman in space storyline.

But alas, Robinson and DiDio mended fences so we can look forward to maybe Superman telling Hawkman how hot he thought Shayera Thall was, or telling Uncle Sam how choice Phantom Lady was. Sigh.

[CYOTI]

Right because we all know how reliable LITG is. Oh wait...

[Magneto Rocks]

Despite the common dislike of Rich Johnston, anything green lighted is basically always true. This is what Rich told the audience at the Dublin Con in his panel (Which he mentions in the same column) and he was 100% sure of it then, so I'd tend to believe it.

And yes, it does make me die a little inside to think that James Robinson (Who writes good books but cannot write the character of Superman to save his life) could have been gone and we could have had Mark Waid (Who... is Mark Waid. Isn't that enough?) in his place.

[Rattlehead]

Is there anything that you don't endlessly bash? Besides, Waid on Superman is worthless if all he's going to do is take cues from Geoff Johns.

[CBikle]

If this week's Lying In The Gutters is to be believed not only was James Robinson gone, but in his place was to be none other than Mark Waid and my geek skin tingles at the thought of him on Superman.


I think you're alone there.

I get that he has some degree of fanboy-appeal, but Waid on Superman really would have sucked; like Busiek, he's a safe, boring, paint-by-numbers writer.

After his blow-up with Robinson, I can understand Didio's initial decision to get a reliable (albeit boring) "safety-net" writer who will crank out the book on time with minimal amount of drama, but I'm very happy that things got worked out.

[Mat001]

Neither Robinson, nor Gates are taking cues from Johns. They're bringing their own ideas to the table just as Johns brings his. It's no different from the late 80's and much of the 90's era.

[CBikle]

Besides, Waid on Superman is worthless if all he's going to do is take cues from Geoff Johns.

That's another angle to this: I think Robinson's involvement was crucial to their overall plans and a big part of why Johns is doing this in the first place.

Who's to say that Johns and Waid can work together ?(especially in light of the tension there'd be)

[rick]

Robinson's Superman has so far been an excellent set of stoires in every single way.

I love Mark Waid, but I would much rather keep Robinson on the book for now.

[CBikle]

Neither Robinson, nor Gates are taking cues from Johns. They're bringing their own ideas to the table just as Johns brings his. It's no different from the late 80's and much of the 90's era.

Right, the recipe is already there.

[WorstThingUS]

Is there anything that you don't endlessly bash? Besides, Waid on Superman is worthless if all he's going to do is take cues from Geoff Johns.

No, I pretty much bash what I don't like until it goes away.

That said, Mark Waid is no one's "junior writer." I've no doubt he'd have a totally separate Superman book from Johns.

I think you're alone there.

I get that he has some degree of fanboy-appeal, but Waid on Superman really would have sucked; like Busiek, he's a safe, boring, paint-by-numbers writer.



I'm not the biggest fan of Busiek either, but I preferred his run to Robinson's because while his plot failed, at least he understood the character not just of Superman, but of those around him. Robinson doesn't have a clue, used more to unknowns or originals he could pretty much do what he wanted with. Waid on the other hand, understands Superman and knows how to tell a story. It would have been a step up.

[Magneto Rocks]

I get that he has some degree of fanboy-appeal, but Waid on Superman really would have sucked; like Busiek, he's a safe, boring, paint-by-numbers writer..

Two words alone clearly demonstrate the COLOSSAL inaccuracy of this statement-

Kingdom

Come

[Harding Prime]

No, I pretty much bash what I don't like until it goes away.

That said, Mark Waid is no one's "junior writer." I've no doubt he'd have a totally separate Superman book from Johns.

You all seem to know what your talking about, except for the fact that all the Superman books are coming under one umbrella as we speak, and pretty much all of that falls under Johns.

It's all fun for speculation and stuff, but that is what is actually happening on the comic shelves right now...and I guess I'm the only one that is okay with that. I have really enjoyed Superman under Busiek and Johns. New Krypton is under one umbrella, just wondering what is going to happen once FC is over.

[CBikle]

Two words alone clearly demonstrate the COLOSSAL inaccuracy of this statement-

Kingdom

Come

Nope. It was Alex Ross' art that sold that mini, just like Marvels.

[Magneto Rocks]

Nope. It was Alec Ross' art that sold that mini, just like Marvels.

Not talking about what sold the mini, talking about what elevated it into a gorgeous piece of storytelling with one of the best takes on Superman in the history of the printed page. ;)

[CBikle]

Not talking about what sold the mini, talking about what elevated it into a gorgeous piece of storytelling with one of the best takes on Superman in the history of the printed page. ;)

You know that Alex Ross also did most of the writing on that right ?

[Mark Waid]

You know that Alec Ross also did most of the writing on that right ?

No, I didn't! Educate me!

[WorstThingUS]

You all seem to know what your talking about, except for the fact that all the Superman books are coming under one umbrella as we speak, and pretty much all of that falls under Johns.

What we know is this: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=17359

Specifically where it reads, "the plan is not to have the Superman books cross over all of the time, so when it does happen it will be for something big."

And when Johns himself says, "It will happen here and there. The books will interweave, separate, then interweave again. It depends on the stories we are hitting on"

[WorstThingUS]

You know that Alec Ross also did most of the writing on that right ?

If you'd read more of the other "writing" (and I use that term loosely) by Ross, you'd know just erroneous that statement truly is. JSA Kingdom Come Special: Superman is the best thing he's ever written and even that comes from Waid's work.

No, I didn't! Educate me!

Ooh, snap!

[RichJohnston]

Despite the common dislike of Rich Johnston, anything green lighted is basically always true.

No it isn't.


This is what Rich told the audience at the Dublin Con in his panel

No I don't. Were you there? If so have you broken the vow you made?

[J. Robb]

Two words alone clearly demonstrate the COLOSSAL inaccuracy of this statement-

Kingdom

Come
I loved Kingdom Come.

Birthright was no Kingdom Come.

[Harding Prime]

No, I didn't! Educate me!

Double Snap!

[CBikle]

No, I didn't! Educate me!

As I understand it, he redesigned the characters for the series and supplied the backstory for those characters. If I'm wrong on that or overstating it, my mistake.

And for me, Ross' art was what really told the story as opposed to the dialogue and narration.

[Harding Prime]

What we know is this: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=17359

Specifically where it reads, "the plan is not to have the Superman books cross over all of the time, so when it does happen it will be for something big."

And when Johns himself says, "It will happen here and there. The books will interweave, separate, then interweave again. It depends on the stories we are hitting on"

So that is basically exactly what I said, just turned to make your opinion look better? As I stated, I said, right now...on comic book shelves, everything has come together, interweaved. Then I said well have to see what happens after FC finishes. So..what?

[Sean Whitmore]

As I understand it, he redesigned the characters for the series and supplied the backstory for those characters. If I'm wrong on that or overstating it, my mistake.

Thing is, even if that were 100% accurate (and I don't think it is), it still wouldn't constitute "most of the writing" of the story.


SEAN

[Harding Prime]

You know that Alec Ross also did most of the writing on that right ?

I don't even know who Alec Ross is? :biggrin:

[CBikle]

What we know is this: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=17359

Specifically where it reads, "the plan is not to have the Superman books cross over all of the time, so when it does happen it will be for something big."

And when Johns himself says, "It will happen here and there. The books will interweave, separate, then interweave again. It depends on the stories we are hitting on"

Yeah, but that interview was written before all of "this". Also, there have been just as many interviews saying that they wanted the books to be strongly connected to each other.

[CBikle]

Thing is, even if that were 100% accurate (and I don't think it is), it still wouldn't constitute "most of the writing" of the story.


It is, if you consider the art is pretty much the whole story for Kingdom Come.

I was trying to be diplomatic because rumor has it that Waid had a tough weekend...

[Sean Whitmore]

It is, if you consider the art is pretty much the whole story for Kingdom Come.

If I considered that, I guess.

Hell, by the same tack, Bryan Hitch wrote most of The Ultimates.


SEAN

[CBikle]

If I considered that, I guess.

Hell, by the same tack, Bryan Hitch wrote most of The Ultimates.


Nope, that was also written by Alec Ross.

[Sean Whitmore]

Nope, that was also written by Alec Ross.

Dude gets around, I'll give him that.


SEAN

[Harding Prime]

Nope, that was also written by Alec Ross.

Are you from England or something, because where I am from we actually call the man by his name, Alex, short for Alexander. At first I thought it was just a typo...

[CBikle]

Are you from England or something, because where I am from we actually call the man by his name, Alex, short for Alexander. At first I thought it was just a typo...

Nah, those were typos. That explains why I was having so much difficulty when I was Googling his name earlier.

[Ontir]

Last I heard, Waid was an editor for BOOM! Studios and exclusive at that.
After his 2nd hellish tenure on the Legion, I don't want to see him on any DC book for a very long time, if ever!

[CBikle]

After his 2nd hellish tenure on the Legion, I don't want to see him on any DC book for a very long time, if ever!

There were some bright spots on that run; the stapling was fantastic !

[Sabrinaset]

You know that Alex Ross also did most of the writing on that right ?

No, I didn't! Educate me!

Is it wrong that I laughed for a full five minutes after reading these two posts? :biggrin:

[WorstThingUS]

So that is basically exactly what I said, just turned to make your opinion look better? As I stated, I said, right now...on comic book shelves, everything has come together, interweaved. Then I said well have to see what happens after FC finishes. So..what?

No, your statement was that Geoff Johns was essentially dictating the direction of all the books while failing to mention that aside from events like "New Krypton" the books would be going off in their own direction. Not to mention it's usually editors that guide a stable of books, the way Mike Carlin did so well for Superman, not writers.

[WorstThingUS]

Thing is, even if that were 100% accurate (and I don't think it is), it still wouldn't constitute "most of the writing" of the story.
SEAN

Seriously. Do people even understand the difference between "plotting" and "writing"? Any idiot can think of a plot; it takes a writer to give it life and make it work. The idea of The Invaders coming into the modern Marvel Universe is a great idea, but if you're read it, you can see it goes nowhere due to a lack of writing.

[Mat001]

You all seem to know what your talking about, except for the fact that all the Superman books are coming under one umbrella as we speak, and pretty much all of that falls under Johns.

He may be helping to organize it and came up with the idea, but a lot of it is all three writers.

Jamal Y. Igle wrote:

SuperTee wrote:
I wonder if Sterling Gates came up with the idea that allowed all the the threads from previous issues of Supergirl to be intertwined or is he reading Geoff Johns cliff notes...and writing off that.

No That was Sterling.
Everything he's writing is based on his ideas for the book. He's working with Geoff and James, not just taking orders and writing what they tell him. Sterling is actually really brilliant. I predict you'll be talking about Sterling they way they talk about Geoff now.

This from over at Newsarma's talkback about Supergirl's origin from #35. Essentially the three writers and the artists sit down and hash out the basic story beats for "New Krypton" and what each issue will tackle. Robinson is dealing with the Guardian, Agent Liberty and Agent Assassin, characters that he's wanted to use since coming on board. Gates is dealing with Superwoman, Cat Grant and Lana Lang. Johns focuses on Nightwing, Flamebird and Brainiac.

Last I heard, Waid was an editor for BOOM! Studios and exclusive at that.

That doesn't mean that he cannot write for another company. He was allowed to finish his work on The Brave & The Bold and he's doing some Spider-Man work for Marvel.

[carabas]

You know that Alex Ross also did most of the writing on that right ?I find that very hard to believe, seeing how just about anything else Ross has done solo (or with partner Jim Krueger) is absolutely unengaging, flat and most of all, disjointed.
It's as if he can do great, iconic, superheroic scenes, but lacks the ability to order them into anything resembling a great story.
IMO "Justice" is an excellent example of this.

I think it was Ross who came up with the story, while Waid was responsible for hammering his plot it into a proper comics script.

[Pól Rua]

Not talking about what sold the mini, talking about what elevated it into a gorgeous piece of storytelling with one of the best takes on Superman in the history of the printed page. ;)

Who? Whiny Tantrum Man?
Lois died so I'm going away to have a whiny tantrum.
The kids are playing up so I'm going to come back and have a whiny tantrum.
Dammit, everything's blowed up! This mess is all YOUR fault!

Superman came across as a clueless doofus in KC.

[David Atkins]

As another poster mentioned, Birthright is no Kingdom Come.

In point of fact, Birthright is as bad as Kingdom Come is good.

I generally find Waid to be hit-and-miss like that. It's either something great that I specifically hang onto, or goes directly into the pile of books that my friends and little cousins are welcome to pick over.

[RichJohnston]

Despite the common dislike of Rich Johnston, anything green lighted is basically always true.

Not true.

This is what Rich told the audience at the Dublin Con in his panel (Which he mentions in the same column) and he was 100% sure of it then, so I'd tend to believe it.

Were you at the panel? In that case, you've committed perjury...

[Magneto Rocks]

Not true.

Apologies, I was paraphrasing. Green-lighted things from your column do tend to have a pretty good record, though my description was indeed inaccurate.

Were you at the panel? In that case, you've committed perjury...

I didn't feel it to be violating the Oath we swore because you'd already revealed it in your column, hence why I haven't shared the other news which wasn't shown. Again, apologies if I screwed up.

[Harding Prime]

This from over at Newsarma's talkback about Supergirl's origin from #35. Essentially the three writers and the artists sit down and hash out the basic story beats for "New Krypton" and what each issue will tackle. Robinson is dealing with the Guardian, Agent Liberty and Agent Assassin, characters that he's wanted to use since coming on board. Gates is dealing with Superwoman, Cat Grant and Lana Lang. Johns focuses on Nightwing, Flamebird and Brainiac.

And I prefer it that way, as a continuity kid, I prefer it when books mesh together that are under the same main character. That is just my way though. But keeping it all under the same umbrella, but still having writers write their own stories with supporting characters is a much better idea then having multiple writers one linear story. The Ressurection of Ra's Al Ghul comes to mind...

[Mat001]

And I prefer it that way, as a continuity kid, I prefer it when books mesh together that are under the same main character. That is just my way though. But keeping it all under the same umbrella, but still having writers write their own stories with supporting characters is a much better idea then having multiple writers one linear story. The Ressurection of Ra's Al Ghul comes to mind...

It's only when the writers don't mesh well. Morrison, Dini, Nicieza and Peter Milligan have different styles and unlike what happened with "52", there wasn't the same gel. The late 80's and 90's era did gel with a longer and linear storyline during the crossovers. Though that tended to take away from the indiviual strengths of each writer. They didn't have as distinct a voice as when their stories were more standalone. Likewise, the 90's Batman team came from different writing styles, but were able to mesh when the crossovers came about.

[md62]

I like Waid as a writer. I think he would have been great for the Superman books.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

I loved both Birthright and KC. He would have been great in a Superman book.

Anyway, perhaps he will be, but later. Who knows...

[Harding Prime]

I loved both Birthright and KC. He would have been great in a Superman book.

Anyway, perhaps he will be, but later. Who knows...

Agreed.

I liked his origin story much better then Bryne's original after COIE.

Is it still the canon?

[Magneto Rocks]

Agreed.

I liked his origin story much better then Bryne's original after COIE.

Is it still the canon?

No, 'Birthright' has been ambiguously canon since 2005 or so loosely, and officially "not-canon" since the end of Infinite Crisis. It's been replaced by... well, absolutely nothing before now, but soon to be 'Secret Origin'.

[Harding Prime]

No, 'Birthright' has been ambiguously canon since 2005 or so loosely, and officially "not-canon" since the end of Infinite Crisis. It's been replaced by... well, absolutely nothing before now, but soon to be 'Secret Origin'.

What was before that, because there was something, if I remember correctly, between Man of Steel and Birthright...

[Mat001]

After Superman #200, it was a tie between both "Man Of Steel" and "Birthright" as no one at DC could settle on it. Too many stories were favoring MOS, but a few writers were going with BR. This is why in "Superman: This Is Your life" and "Infinite Crisis" you see both origins in relations to Kal-El. "Secret Origin" is designed to merge elements of those two, along with various other versions, into a more streamlined origin.

[THEDOC]

Loved the Byrne Origin though not at first, and love Waid. I hate they have Clark wimpy again. Is he still married??

[Mat001]

Yes, Clark is still married to Lois.

[WorstThingUS]

After Superman #200, it was a tie between both "Man Of Steel" and "Birthright" as no one at DC could settle on it. Too many stories were favoring MOS, but a few writers were going with BR. This is why in "Superman: This Is Your life" and "Infinite Crisis" you see both origins in relations to Kal-El. "Secret Origin" is designed to merge elements of those two, along with various other versions, into a more streamlined origin.

And in Superman #200, when he's traveling through time Superman sees three versions of his own origin: the Classic one, John Bryne's and Birthright. It was essentially an acknowledgment of the team at the time that not even they knew which one was the "offical one."

[Mat001]

Actually it was their way of acknowledging what came before and deciding to do a change over without a Crisis to serve as a catalyst. The ending where Clark chooses "Birthright" was designed to say that this was going to be his origin. But then "Nightwing: Year One" and "Superman: The Kansas Sighting" came out with Byrne's Krypton, rather than Waid's. While Loeb used BR in his latter work. That's why in "This Is Your Life", we see all three again and "Infinite Crisis" was used to solidify everything.