Supergirl #35: Are You Serious? (Spoilers)

[WorstThingUS]

The New Krypton storyline continues into Supergirl and Sterling Gates continues his 180 degree turnaround on this book, but seriously, did we need another retelling of Supergirl's origin? No, I'm not kidding. This is yet another issue explaining Supergirl's origin, which makes, what, number four? "Dear Santa: What I want for Christmas is to go 12 months without a Supergirl origin story."

Apparently, when she thought she was here to kill Kal-El it was because she was suffering from k-radiation poisoning, which is obviously not the same as kryptonite poisoning. It gave her hallucinations and delusions (maybe she hallucinated Dark Angel as well). Gates even tries to explain away the "crystalline" aspect of Supergirl with this when what it really needed was to be retconned away, period.

The story also serves to tie Brainiac more to Krypton and Kandor (influence of the Animated Series possibly?) with Brainiac's tech being responsible for the force field that saved Kandor (Argo City apparently lost to the Silver & Bronze Age, but that's okay) and the reason Kara was sent away to begin with.

Appropriately enough Superwoman makes her first appearance Post Crisis here in Supergirl, apparently as the result the bad press Cat Grant is spreading about Supergirl, which is ringing sour with me. I think it's just the fact that Cat has buried her young son. Can we really resent someone the way we need to if that's the reason they've gone cold or mean? Not to mention, does Supergirl really need her own J. Jonah Jameson? And how can you really ferment bad feelings against Supergirl in Metropolis? If Supergirl were in another city, maybe, but it'd be kinda like having Eli Manning as Peyton Manning's back up on the Colts and trying to get people to hate him. Even if they did, they'd never admit it for love of Peyton. But in New York, people ripped Eli instantly for not being Peyton, but in the end he finally came through just like his brother (wow, that metaphor worked out better than I planned).

[Spiffy]

The New Krypton storyline continues into Supergirl and Sterling Gates continues his 180 degree turnaround on this book, but seriously, did we need another retelling of Supergirl's origin? No, I'm not kidding. This is yet another issue explaining Supergirl's origin, which makes, what, number four? "Dear Santa: What I want for Christmas is to go 12 months without a Supergirl origin story."
I actually thought it was okay. And given that it seems Kara's parents are essential to the whole New Krypton storyline, I don't think they had a choice--they HAD to explain the discrepancies.

Apparently, when she thought she was here to kill Kal-El it was because she was suffering from k-radiation poisoning, which is obviously not the same as kryptonite poisoning. It gave her hallucinations and delusions (maybe she hallucinated Dark Angel as well). Gates even tries to explain away the "crystalline" aspect of Supergirl with this when what it really needed was to be retconned away, period.
While on one level I agree that its a bit lame, it gained a few points from me because in addition to explaining the differences between this Zor-El and Alura and the ones presented to us a few years ago, as well as those stupid crystals, it also seems to be intended as a way to explain the inconsistent characterization of Kara that we've had to endure as well. Supergirl's been written with about a dozen different personalities since this version showed up, and while NO EXPLANATION was going to be good enough to excuse all that bad writing, at least it was a better-than-average band-aid.

The story also serves to tie Brainiac more to Krypton and Kandor (influence of the Animated Series possibly?) with Brainiac's tech being responsible for the force field that saved Kandor (Argo City apparently lost to the Silver & Bronze Age, but that's okay) and the reason Kara was sent away to begin with.
Hasn't this already been "tied" by the stuff Johns has written?

Appropriately enough Superwoman makes her first appearance Post Crisis here in Supergirl, apparently as the result the bad press Cat Grant is spreading about Supergirl, which is ringing sour with me. I think it's just the fact that Cat has buried her young son. Can we really resent someone the way we need to if that's the reason they've gone cold or mean? Not to mention, does Supergirl really need her own J. Jonah Jameson? And how can you really ferment bad feelings against Supergirl in Metropolis? If Supergirl were in another city, maybe, but it'd be kinda like having Eli Manning as Peyton Manning's back up on the Colts and trying to get people to hate him. Even if they did, they'd never admit it for love of Peyton. But in New York, people ripped Eli instantly for not being Peyton, but in the end he finally came through just like his brother (wow, that metaphor worked out better than I planned).
I'm not sure Cat is supposed to really be all that successful. I think what she's supposed to be doing is selling papers (the part I can't really buy is Perry White allowing it), and people don't really have to believe something to eat it up as tabloid fodder.

As for Superwoman... jeez. Could the book have made it ANY more obvious who she is. :biggrin:

[Duy]

Considering that the last issue was treated as a jumping-on point, I thought this was necessary.

[CYOTI]

Thow can you really ferment bad feelings against Supergirl in Metropolis? If Supergirl were in another city, maybe, but it'd be kinda like having Eli Manning as Peyton Manning's back up on the Colts and trying to get people to hate him.
Did anyone of these people down AF1 while serving on behalf of a hostile foreign power?

[Joe Acro]

The story also serves to tie Brainiac more to Krypton and Kandor (influence of the Animated Series possibly?) with Brainiac's tech being responsible for the force field that saved Kandor (Argo City apparently lost to the Silver & Bronze Age, but that's okay) and the reason Kara was sent away to begin with.
Brainiac was originally involved with Kandor and Krypton. (And I don't recall Kandor being in the Animated Series.)

That was only changed post-Crisis. So, it's not so much that this is influenced by the Animated Series, but really just pre-Crisis Superman. Which, given some of the other changes, makes sense.

[phantomblot]

Alos, they were in Argo city, not Kandor. They explain it very clearly earlier in the issue.

[Kage Kisaragi]

Did anyone of these people down AF1 while serving on behalf of a hostile foreign power?

considering it Was Wonder Girl who really downed it I don't see how you can blame Kara.

[WorstThingUS]

Hasn't this already been "tied" by the stuff Johns has written?

I meant, even Supergirl's coming to Earth was the result of Brainiac.

Considering that the last issue was treated as a jumping-on point, I thought this was necessary.

Good point. I keep forgetting most have had the good sense to avoid this series.

Did anyone of these people down AF1 while serving on behalf of a hostile foreign power?

They covered it up, but yeah. Eli did just that. For Slovakia. No one is really sure as to why.

[Sean Walsh]

From what I understand based on reading past comments about SUPERGIRL, the first 33 or so issues of this series were dreadful anyway; so unexplain most of it away and ignore the rest...

[SeritoNiN]

Lame issue, I agree. New Krypton has been pretty lack-luster as a whole so far as well to be perfectly honest.

[We R. Venom]

Considering that the last issue was treated as a jumping-on point, I thought this was necessary.

It was for me. I didn't know a thing about Supergirl other than the horrible crap that kept me from reading it in the first place. So for a new reader the 180 works perfectly. Completely neccesary.

[Mat001]

This issue is just building off of what Geoff Johns wrote in Action Comics #869 and explaining all of the inconsistancies from the last several years. And a good thing too. And as mentioned, Brainiac was originally tied into the taking of Kandor in Action Comics #242. The only thing the DCAU and "Smallville" did was have Brainiac be an actual product of Kryptonian technology, rather than one of the Computer Tyrants of Colu like in the DCU proper, "Super Friends" and "The Legion Of Super-Heroes" animated series. This time, Johns just tied Brainiac into the creation of Argo's dome and it's subsequent destruction. Which to me, works better than a random destruction from a meteor shower.

Plus, this retcon doesn't take away from the first thirty three issues and her debut in Superman/Batman.

[Kage Kisaragi]

From what I understand based on reading past comments about SUPERGIRL, the first 33 or so issues of this series were dreadful anyway; so unexplain most of it away and ignore the rest...

actually thats not the majorities stand point, thats the fans of the previous Supergirls stand point. Those who knew of the character but came really on board during Jeph Loeb / Joe Kelly's run loved every issue up until around 19 or so.. after that a cop out ending by Kelly pretty much killed the appeal of the character for the rest of us.. quite the shame too.

Basically if you got the following three trades, Superman Batman: Supergirl (her introduction), Supergirl: Power, Supergirl: Candor, Supergirl: Identity... you have core gems of a truly awesome story, everything since then has been and still is appearently full of ****!

[WorstThingUS]

Plus, this retcon doesn't take away from the first thirty three issues and her debut in Superman/Batman.

I guess this mean severything everyone disliked from Boomerang Jr. to her betrayal of the alien Kandor (not to mention that icky kiss) was caused by k-radiation poisoning (but I'm going to be a broken record and say it still doesn't explain why we never saw anything done about Ultra Man and Saturn Queen ruling the city. Power Girl wasn't suffering from anything and Superman would never let a second dictatorship in his name slide).

actually thats not the majorities stand point, thats the fans of the previous Supergirls stand point. Those who knew of the character but came really on board during Jeph Loeb / Joe Kelly's run loved every issue up until around 19 or so.. after that a cop out ending by Kelly pretty much killed the appeal of the character for the rest of us.. quite the shame too.

Actually, the majority of Supergirl fans hated that. It's a minority who liked Super ClubHopper Girl which is why she's gone the way of Batgirl turning evil or The Punisher going insane and shooting at jaywalkers. A sickness that's been cured.

[Crisis]

i thought i was the only one who thought Superwoman (post crisis Kristin Wells) :) ...but i was wondering if it was Lesla Lar in that get up :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesla-Lar

would fit w/ destroying Kara's image via Kat since Lesla Does look like Kara

[4thHorseman]

I thought Sterling did a fine job trying to wrap up all the inconsistincies with previous issues into this one problem. May seem like a cop-out, but when you have all the people complaining about who Supergirl is, people need something to latch onto. This is one of the better ones I feel could come out of it. Finally a Supergirl I can like.

Though this issue felt like it had no importance to New Krypton other than having the new Superwoman brought in at the end.

[d newton]

I think you got 2 words mixed up in that last sentence - here's what it should have been:
Actually, the minority of Supergirl fans hated that. It's a majority who liked Super ClubHopper Girl.
:tongue:

[WorstThingUS]

I think you got 2 words mixed up in that last sentence - here's what it should have been:

:tongue:

Yeah, that's why she's gone and been gone for almost as long as she was around. Heh-heh-heh.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I think Gates did a fine job of explaining the never-ending changes to her backstory and personality whilst also moving the book forward with some meaty conflict with her mother over her secret identity.

[Mat001]

I guess this mean severything everyone disliked from Boomerang Jr. to her betrayal of the alien Kandor (not to mention that icky kiss) was caused by k-radiation poisoning (but I'm going to be a broken record and say it still doesn't explain why we never saw anything done about Ultra Man and Saturn Queen ruling the city. Power Girl wasn't suffering from anything and Superman would never let a second dictatorship in his name slide).


Well, Kara kept going back to Kandor as she mentioned in "The Third Kryptonian". So I'm sure she dealt with it. It's just that Joe Kelly never got around to showing it, because it was taken off the table. Ultraman isn't there anymore and neither is Saturn Queen, as we've seen in "Trinity", "Final Crisis: Legion Of 3 Worlds" and "Final Crisis: Superman Beyond".

[d newton]

SuperClubHopper Girl > Cir-El. :biggrin:

[KET]

I thought Sterling did a fine job trying to wrap up all the inconsistincies with previous issues into this one problem. May seem like a cop-out, but when you have all the people complaining about who Supergirl is, people need something to latch onto.


The basic problem is that after over 30 issues of inconsistancy and YEARS of general writing cluelessness, it's already TOO LATE to fix. Ship's already sailed; most of the book's readership has already left, after being burned for too long. The idea's kinda like Detroit saying that they need a bailout NOW in order to finally make energy-efficient vehicles.

Instead Gates writes yet another patch-job apology for past efforts instead of a self-defining adventure for the title character, which is what she REALLY needs at this unfortunate juncture.

[KET]

I think Gates did a fine job of explaining the never-ending changes to her backstory and personality whilst also moving the book forward with some meaty conflict with her mother over her secret identity.

Seemed like more drummed-up fake conflict to me. Now it's Allura giving Kara a mental workover instead of having psycho-daddy issues. Too bad both parents still have the personalities of cardboard.

[phantomblot]

The basic problem is that after over 30 issues of inconsistancy and YEARS of general writing cluelessness, it's already TOO LATE to fix. Ship's already sailed; most of the book's readership has already left, after being burned for too long. The idea's kinda like Detroit saying that they need a bailout NOW in order to finally make energy-efficient vehicles.

Instead Gates writes yet another patch-job apology for past efforts instead of a self-defining adventure for the title character, which is what she REALLY needs at this unfortunate juncture.
It's never too late to save a book and it's pretty obvious from the critical praise they've been getting that they've been doing just that.

[Kage Kisaragi]

Actually, the majority of Supergirl fans hated that. It's a minority who liked Super ClubHopper Girl which is why she's gone the way of Batgirl turning evil or The Punisher going insane and shooting at jaywalkers. A sickness that's been cured.

Excuse me I believe I said quite clear, "The fans of previous supergirls." You and those you claim are obvious the fans of previous supergirls.Just cause you and yours don't want to see characters actting like people and doing human like things, and making human mistakes while shining when they do something right, doesn't detract from good story telling. Do have a problem with me or something, or are you just having one of your internet periods, where you feel that everything is a fight, (c-fighting died out ages ago.)

[Kage Kisaragi]

SuperClubHopper Girl > Cir-El. :biggrin:

I would hate to be the daughter of WorsthingUs, you go to one club with teens in your age group and dance and all of a sudden you disowned. You go to one party at someones penthouse, and your disowned.

She never kissed Boomer in a romantic way, she only had one of those thus far and to be honest I'd be hard pressed to find a writer who doesn't write like a 10 year kid whos just looking to throw his favorite characters into "I'm the greatest, and save the world time." plots every two seconds. So say what will about Kelly's stories, but his crap even on its worst has to date been better than everything everyone who has written Supergirl thus far as, facts? Its in the sales.

[WorstThingUS]

Excuse me I believe I said quite clear, "The fans of previous supergirls." You and those you claim are obvious the fans of previous supergirls.Just cause you and yours don't want to see characters actting like people and doing human like things, and making human mistakes while shining when they do something right, doesn't detract from good story telling.

Oh, jeez, not this this "but she was interesting 'cause she was flawed" whine again. She was not. She was skanky and stupid and her character made zero sense because whatever the reaction is to waking up on an alien world and finding out you're one of exactly two people left in the universe of your entire race and you've now got the powers of a god, I'm pretty sure it's not "Where's the party?" It was poor characterization and poor storytelling and it's been deservedly written away as her mind literally being poisoned.

And while I don't have a problem with you personally, just as it's your right to turn up in every Supergirl thread to say how great it was when she was a clubhopping twit, it's just as much my right to gloat over the demise of that concept every time you do.

So say what will about Kelly's stories, but his crap even on its worst has to date been better than everything everyone who has written Supergirl thus far as, facts? Its in the sales.

Yeah, 'cause nothing says "quality" like how much money you make. That's a sound argument. That's why Manhunter struggled every moment of its existence and Countdown topped the charts, because the former was horribly written and the latter was a masterpiece.

[CBikle]

The basic problem is that after over 30 issues of inconsistancy and YEARS of general writing cluelessness, it's already TOO LATE to fix. Ship's already sailed; most of the book's readership has already left, after being burned for too long. The idea's kinda like Detroit saying that they need a bailout NOW in order to finally make energy-efficient vehicles.

Instead Gates writes yet another patch-job apology for past efforts instead of a self-defining adventure for the title character, which is what she REALLY needs at this unfortunate juncture.

Nah, I disagree. Old-school comics fans are very, very forgiving when it comes to a new writer trying to get a character back on track or at least moving that character in the right direction.

Gates is new to the book and he's backed up by Johns and Robinson; he's moving in the right direction (albeit maybe a little too slowly).

Personally, I don't think addressing the evil Zor El stuff was necessary (just ignore it like everyone ignores Countdown stuff), but I can understand why he did, especially since he would get nothing but grief from the continuity freaks if he didn't.

Plus, maybe it's part of an upcoming story (maybe Zor-El really is evil ?).

[CBikle]

She [Supergirl] was skanky and stupid and her character made zero sense because whatever the reaction is to waking up on an alien world and finding out you're one of exactly two people left in the universe of your entire race and you've now got the powers of a god, I'm pretty sure it's not "Where's the party?" It was poor characterization and poor storytelling and it's been deservedly written away as her mind literally being poisoned.


It's not a bad idea, it's just not right for Supergirl.

And those stories were written by 2 of the worst writers in comics, Loeb and Kelly.

A Paris Hilton-esque Kryptonian could still work though...

[WorstThingUS]

It's not a bad idea, it's just not right for Supergirl.

And those stories were written by 2 of the worst writers in comics, Loeb and Kelly.

A Paris Hilton-esque Kryptonian could still work though...

The irony being, they could totally do it now with one of the Kandorians and it would make sense because a teen in that environment wouldn't have the traumas Kara Zor-El had and so it would make sense she'd want to party now free of Kandor's bubble and possessing super-powers and a certain amount of worship being one of Superman's people. But if they did it and had Supergirl be the one to try and rein her in, it would look like they were mocking the first year and a half of the book. Not that I care, but they might have a problem insulting co-workers.

And Loeb and Kelly did some really good work with Superman on Action Comics. They just stumbled badly with Supergirl.

[CYOTI]

I would hate to be the daughter of WorsthingUs, you go to one club with teens in your age group and dance and all of a sudden you disowned. It's better than your apparent standards where being the Paris Hilton of a group would be seen as a good thing. Note to you, people are interested in her because of her dysfunction not because of her qualities as a role model..

I'd be hard pressed to find a writer who doesn't write like a 10 year kid whos just looking to throw his favorite characters into "I'm the greatest, and save the world time." plots every two seconds. You do realize that the whole saving the world thing is an essential part of the superhero genre don't you? Or did you think superheroes were all about characters having angst and acting like wannabe prostitutes.

[d newton]

Oh, jeez, not this this "but she was interesting 'cause she was flawed" whine again. She was not. She was skanky and stupid and her character made zero sense because whatever the reaction is to waking up on an alien world and finding out you're one of exactly two people left in the universe of your entire race and you've now got the powers of a god, I'm pretty sure it's not "Where's the party?" It was poor characterization and poor storytelling and it's been deservedly written away as her mind literally being poisoned.
All the Wonder Girl (Cassie) fans would disagree with you about Kara being a "skank" [see issues 9, 10 & 19 for example].

[Mia]

Oh, jeez, not this this "but she was interesting 'cause she was flawed" whine again. She was not. She was skanky and stupid and her character made zero sense because whatever the reaction is to waking up on an alien world and finding out you're one of exactly two people left in the universe of your entire race and you've now got the powers of a god, I'm pretty sure it's not "Where's the party?" It was poor characterization and poor storytelling and it's been deservedly written away as her mind literally being poisoned..

Please speak for yourself. It wasn't interesting to you. But the characterisation was interesting to the fans who were buying and enjoying this book enough so for it to sell 50K a month. Where are the sales now?

And pelase explain how Supergirl was a 'skank', or was it the fact she's not wearing a burka or a nuns habit that makes it so?


If you want to read about a cute little cherub who can do no wrong. Then perhaps you should be watching Shirley Temple movies.

http://br.geocities.com/astrosestrelas/Shirley_Temple__2_.bmp.jpg

It's beyond me why DC continues to cater to unimaginative fans.

[WorstThingUS]

Please speak for yourself. It wasn't interesting to you. But the characterisation was interesting to the fans who were buying and enjoying this book enough so for it to sell 50K a month. Where are the sales now?

Hopefully now that there's a decent writer, sales and quality will coincide, though my examples of Manhunter and Countdown prove they are hardly mutually exclusive.

And pelase explain how Supergirl was a 'skank', or was it the fact she's not wearing a burka or a nuns habit that makes it so?

I wasn't even going to get into the fact she was drawn like an anorexic porn star for most of that. And yes, I plead guilty for seeing obnoxious club girls as a bit skanky.

If you want to read about a cute little cherub who can do no wrong. Then perhaps you should be watching Shirley Temple movies.

Why? We won. I'm getting the Supergirl I want now. The rest of you can continue to carry a torch for your 19 issue fever dream.

It's beyond me why DC continues to cater to unimaginative fans.

Because it takes so much imagination to say, "Hey, let's make Supergirl a bad girl" and then proceed to do so in the most inept way possible? And they're catering to people who expect a character wearing the "S" not to be annoying, obnoxious or carry an air of sleaze. And what's beyond me is the amazing lack of taste in some of DC's fans.

[d newton]

Why? We won. I'm getting the Supergirl I want now. The rest of you can continue to carry a torch for your 19 issue fever dream.
Who's the "we" you refer to in this sentence? BTW - here's a cover with the current Supergirl:
http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/14121/400/14121_4_033.jpg

[KET]

Who's the "we" you refer to in this sentence? BTW - here's a cover with the current Supergirl:
http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/14121/400/14121_4_033.jpg


ZZZZZZ....dull facial close-up. Looks like a fashion mag parody. :biggrin:


However, some of the criticism of the so-called 'new direction' by fans of the schizophrenic previous mess is somewhat justified, in the fact that the new execution is just SO UNIMAGINATIVE. Refried Silver Age is still refried Silver Age, and the result is still BLAND characterization when all's said and done.

Next up: a refried mash-up of "Supergirl's Big Sister"....or will it actually be "The Adventures of Supergirl's Evil Mom"? Forget Kristin Wells...that's a likely red herring to a dull "Superwoman" mystery.

[phantomblot]

Please speak for yourself. It wasn't interesting to you. But the characterisation was interesting to the fans who were buying and enjoying this book enough so for it to sell 50K a month. Where are the sales now?

And pelase explain how Supergirl was a 'skank', or was it the fact she's not wearing a burka or a nuns habit that makes it so?


If you want to read about a cute little cherub who can do no wrong. Then perhaps you should be watching Shirley Temple movies.

http://br.geocities.com/astrosestrelas/Shirley_Temple__2_.bmp.jpg

It's beyond me why DC continues to cater to unimaginative fans.

And the sales on the new issue jumped up 6,000 orders .So I'd say DC knows what they're doing.
I'm of the opinion that the Leob/Kelly Supergirl was horrible. She wasn't Supergirl, she looked like her but didn't act like her and I had no interest her.That's why that run lost 50,000 + readers.

[Mia]

And the sales on the new issue jumped up 6,000 orders .So I'd say DC knows what they're doing.
I'm of the opinion that the Leob/Kelly Supergirl was horrible. She wasn't Supergirl, she looked like her but didn't act like her and I had no interest her.That's why that run lost 50,000 + readers.


Nonsense. If that were true. People wouldn't have picked up the books to begin with.

[Mia]

I wasn't even going to get into the fact she was drawn like an anorexic porn star for most of that. And yes, I plead guilty for seeing obnoxious club girls as a bit skanky...

Annorexic porn star? I haven't a clue what that is supposed to mean. Kara is far more clothed and covered than Wonderwoman too. I guess you're going to tell us that Wondie's into doing porn too.



Why? We won. I'm getting the Supergirl I want now. The rest of you can continue to carry a torch for your 19 issue fever dream..

No because that's what you want to read about.

I am going to laughing my guts out when sales plummet again because no one wants to read about a revamped version of Pollyanna.



Because it takes so much imagination to say, "Hey, let's make Supergirl a bad girl" and then proceed to do so in the most inept way possible? And they're catering to people who expect a character wearing the "S" not to be annoying, obnoxious or carry an air of sleaze. And what's beyond me is the amazing lack of taste in some of DC's fans.


No because it takes far more imagination to write stories about a troubled young woman, or a woman who has an abusive background, who learns to overcome her the trauma of her past and become a hero. Than it does to write about a girl who has no problems watsoever, lives a charmed life and really is nothing but a female clone of her more popular cousin.

[CYOTI]

Nonsense. If that were true. People wouldn't have picked up the books to begin with. People are still picking up Jeph Loeb's Rulk and Ultimates stuff. If anything the fact that Loeb's name can still actually attract readers despite his dismal output shows that the average comic book reader has an IQ in the single digits.

[CYOTI]

No because it takes far more imagination to write stories about a troubled young woman, or a woman who has an abusive background.
No it doesn't, all you have to do is turn on the news and log on to the nearest celebrity scandal site to do that.

[Mia]

No it doesn't, all you have to do is turn on the news and log on to the nearest celebrity scandal site to do that.

Right. That's if you want to show a woman who is simply debauched. But that's not what I was referering to. Here's the quote in in it's entirety:



No because it takes far more imagination to write stories about a troubled young woman, or a woman who has an abusive background, who learns to overcome her the trauma of her past and become a hero. Than it does to write about a girl who has no problems watsoever, lives a charmed life and really is nothing but a female clone of her more popular cousin.


Big difference from what you decided to edit, cut and paste.

[md62]

Judging from my 13 year old daughter's reaction to the new direction - DC finally got it right. She was insulted by the "skanky" Supergirl. She felt it belittled teens. Books like Robin where the teen hero is confident she enjoys. She has tried this book whenever a new creative team came on & usually dropped it after two issues. However my daughter is a bit down right now - it seems most of the books (teen heroes) she reads will be getting cancelled in the next few months.

[CBikle]

No because it takes far more imagination to write stories about a troubled young woman, or a woman who has an abusive background, who learns to overcome her the trauma of her past and become a hero. Than it does to write about a girl who has no problems watsoever, lives a charmed life and really is nothing but a female clone of her more popular cousin.

It's only 2 issues in Gate's run, but the problems Kara faces are the following:

- Cat Grant

- Kryptonite poisoning

- Parental issues (specifically Zor El)

-A new rival.

There's other stuff too, but I don't want to spoil stuff for anyone.

[Mat001]

ZZZZZZ....dull facial close-up. Looks like a fashion mag parody. :biggrin:


However, some of the criticism of the so-called 'new direction' by fans of the schizophrenic previous mess is somewhat justified, in the fact that the new execution is just SO UNIMAGINATIVE. Refried Silver Age is still refried Silver Age, and the result is still BLAND characterization when all's said and done.

Next up: a refried mash-up of "Supergirl's Big Sister"....or will it actually be "The Adventures of Supergirl's Evil Mom"? Forget Kristin Wells...that's a likely red herring to a dull "Superwoman" mystery.

No, it's more likely that Superwoman is Thara Ar-Vak who has decided that she deserves to be in Kara's place and will more or less support Cat Grant's position that the world doesn't need Supergirl, it needs Superwoman.

[WorstThingUS]

Annorexic porn star? I haven't a clue what that is supposed to mean. Kara is far more clothed and covered than Wonderwoman too. I guess you're going to tell us that Wondie's into doing porn too.

Yes, whatever was I thinking...

http://www.sevensparrows.net/allacross/SupergirlBlack.jpg


No because that's what you want to read about.

Um, the Supergirl l I wanted to read about is here. The one you liked is gone, literally something that had to be cured. We. Won. You. Lost.

I am going to laughing my guts out when sales plummet again because no one wants to read about a revamped version of Pollyanna.

Yeah, because when you see a book with the big red "S" on it, what you're looking for is a tortured character.

No because it takes far more imagination to write stories about a troubled young woman, or a woman who has an abusive background, who learns to overcome her the trauma of her past and become a hero.

Shame no one with that imagination ever worked on this book. What we got were creepy middled aged man fantasies about a bad girl superhero ("I'm a hot girl. I can go anywhere I want.")

[CBikle]

However, some of the criticism of the so-called 'new direction' by fans of the schizophrenic previous mess is somewhat justified, in the fact that the new execution is just SO UNIMAGINATIVE. Refried Silver Age is still refried Silver Age, and the result is still BLAND characterization when all's said and done.


It's only 2 issues in and the current team has to clean up the debris left by previous teams.

Also, Gates is employing a little more subtlety in his stories than the previous writers and hopefully, that's a good thing for this book.

The pace definitely needs to pick up a little and I'm hoping that's what'll happen now that all the continuity is in place.

[d newton]

Yay, it's the return of the silly comments:
Um, the Supergirl l I wanted to read about is here. The one you liked is gone, literally something that had to be cured. We. Won. You. Lost.
Who's the "we" that you keep mentioning?

Shame no one with that imagination ever worked on this book. What we got were creepy middled aged man fantasies about a bad girl superhero ("I'm a hot girl. I can go anywhere I want).
How many bad girl superheroes has DC done so far? And I'm pretty sure the writers on the current Supergirl book don't want to be called creepy by a poster who thinks that anorexic girls aren't good looking.

[Magneto Rocks]

Now, I have no side in the Supergirl debate, but i wanted to interject about this-

Y
Um, the Supergirl l I wanted to read about is here. The one you liked is gone, literally something that had to be cured. We. Won. You. Lost.)

This is just getting silly and childish. Firstly, you don't 'win' if a writer decides on a take which is closer to your idea than someone else's. That doesn't mean you've 'won' anything, it means a writer has decided his take on the character, nothing more. Secondly, this is comics. That means that having one writer who agrees with you means nothing, because the next writer could just as easily reverse it, or the one after that, or another one. 'Victory', if it can even be called that, is guaranteed for a few short years a most, making this entire thing rather silly.

[CYOTI]

I love the fact that all those haters of the current Gates run had the foresight to act like adults only AFTER throwing a hissy fit over the loss of pornslut!Supergirl.

[livin_target]

And I'm pretty sure the writers on the current Supergirl book don't want to be called creepy by a poster who thinks that anorexic girls aren't good looking.

Whoa wait what now!?! Someone who doesn't think anorexic, unhealthy looking girls are sexy is now considered creepy? For the love of God, please tell me that I'm totally misreading this quote.

[Alex L]

Yes, whatever was I thinking...

http://www.sevensparrows.net/allacross/SupergirlBlack.jpg

Evil Supergirl. Evil characters are almost always vamped up (read: Malice Sue Storm).

It is SG with a color swap and a shorter skirt, but if you look at some of the other covers in this run (http://www.coverbrowser.com/covers/supergirl-2005), aside from the belly shirt she's not really showing off any more skin than previous Supergirls (http://www.wallpaperbase.com/wallpapers/cartoons/supergirl/supergirl_4.jpg).

I will admit that the Silver Age knowledge is not strong with me, but I don't remember Kara being portrayed the way she was in the beginning of this run. Here, the writers decided to play up the "rocketed to Earth at the age of 16" more than I remember seeing Silver Age Supergirl.

She doesn't know anything about our world.

She's kinda-sorta street smart because she does have life experiences, but elsewhere.

Her cousin already established a name that she has to live up to.

And before playing up the naive card too much...

She lived Krypton. Kal hasn't. There's a whole lot there that can be played around with.

She's used to Kryptonian technology and conveniences.

In contrast to Superman, Kara's more like, say, a Tibetan exile. Her home is gone. Her family (prior to New Krypton) is dead. She will never see a Kryptonian sunset, or the view of the Fire Falls outside Argo City, or taste Kryptonian berries again. That's a HUGE difference between her and Kal that I've never seen Silver-age stories play on.

This isn't to defend everything about the run; "Kill Kal-El" was a terrible plot point -- but I actually liked the new Kara. And I didn't see the pornslut Supergirl some of you are talking about.

[WorstThingUS]

Yay, it's the return of the silly comments:

Who's the "we" that you keep mentioning?

Well, whenever anyone would criticize the Super ClubHopper Girl they'd act like anyone who didn't care for it was part of some "group" of people trapped in the past as if there meetings or something, or you couldn't possibly dislike this version without obsessively loving the old, so I've decided to just run with it.

And I'm pretty sure the writers on the current Supergirl book don't want to be called creepy by a poster who thinks that anorexic girls aren't good looking.

Okay, that statement makes no sense at all because your use of a double negative has you suggesting the writers think anorexic girls are attractive and that I'm wrong not thinking so.

Evil Supergirl. Evil characters are almost always vamped up (read: Malice Sue Storm).

The outifts are the same and drawn the same. The only difference is color. But it was never the outfit, itself but how she was drawn in it. Like Ed Benes, Churchill tends to "pornify" women in comics to the point where Tony Bedard actually spoke of it when he filled in.

This isn't to defend everything about the run; "Kill Kal-El" was a terrible plot point -- but I actually liked the new Kara. And I didn't see the pornslut Supergirl some of you are talking about.

It was a combination of the creepy artwork, club hopping and lines like, "I'm a hot girl, I can go wherever I want" that lent an overall air of sleaze to the book. And it was just a horrible execution of the idea that Supergirl wouldn't be just like Superman. As New Krypton has shown (hey, we're back to the actual book) you can show Kryptonians as different, even hostile without it being something that looks like a middle-aged man's nightmare/fantasy of a teenage girl.

[Mat001]

As I understand it, it was more than just the fans complaining that resulted in the changes made to Kara. DC themselves were also questioning how far they were going with Kara's look. That's why Igle, Frank, Woods and Guedes have all toned down Kara's sex appeal when they've drawn her. Guedes was the first to speak out that Kara was looking too adult for someone so young and thus when he drew her previously in the Superman books, she didn't look like Benes, Turner or Churchill. Igle spoke up after he was confirmed as the new artist. Frank pretty much drew her the same way he did Linda, only made her shorter and younger looking.

[CYOTI]

It has more to do with the fact that they moved Supergirl from Eddie Berganza's editorial control to Matt Idelson's. Berganza was the one who infamously actually asked in the weekly dc columns why no teenage girls were reading the book while he had Ian Churchill oversexualize her and Joe Kelly writing her like a drug addled klutz

[CBikle]

Berganza was the one who infamously actually asked in the weekly dc columns why no teenage girls were reading the book while he had Ian Churchill oversexualize her and Joe Kelly writing her like a drug addled klutz

For the most part, I don't think teenage girls read comics and the ones that do, tend to read X-Men (for the soap opera stuff), a few reading Batman comics and Strangers In Paradise had a reasonably-sized fanbase. At least that's been my experience.

I've only become aware of it in the last month, but the Twilight series seems to have a big teen girl following as does its author, Stephanie Meyer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephenie_Meyer), who seems like the kind of writer you'd want if you want to expand on the teen girl demographic.

Of course, the trade off is that her writing may not appeal to conventional comics fans and writers like Stephanie Meyer probably don't follow other DCU titles, so the book would have limited or no interaction with other DC titles or continuity.

[Mia]

This is just getting silly and childish. Firstly, you don't 'win' if a writer decides on a take which is closer to your idea than someone else's. That doesn't mean you've 'won' anything, it means a writer has decided his take on the character, nothing more. Secondly, this is comics. That means that having one writer who agrees with you means nothing, because the next writer could just as easily reverse it, or the one after that, or another one. 'Victory', if it can even be called that, is guaranteed for a few short years a most, making this entire thing rather silly.


I was going to respond to this:

Yes, whatever was I thinking...
Um, the Supergirl l I wanted to read about is here. The one you liked is gone, literally something that had to be cured. We. Won. You. Lost.



But Magneto Rocks provided a better response than I ever could. However it does go to show the maturity level of the fans who like this book.

[Mia]

It's only 2 issues in Gate's run, but the problems Kara faces are the following:

- Cat Grant

.

What? a reporter who is gunning for her. The old Kara wouln't have cared. One of my favourite scenes is in issue #7, where these alians are harrassing her. And she grabs one of them and flings him across the alley. The old SG took no guff from anyone, and did not cow to negative opinions from someone whom she had no respect for.


- Kryptonite poisoning .

As an excuse for her past independent streak.


- Parental issues (specifically Zor El).

Something we haven't seen a million times on night time soaps. Hasn't this been done already on The OC or 90210?


-A new rival.

Who will whip her butt. So she can go crying to Superman.

For the most part, I don't think teenage girls read comics and the ones that do, tend to read X-Men (for the soap opera stuff), a few reading Batman comics and Strangers In Paradise had a reasonably-sized fanbase. At least that's been my experience.



I like and watch soaps--and yes I read the X books (when there are decent writers on them). But I don't want to read the type of books that teenage girls flock to. One of the comic book stores I frequent sell a lot of manga and much of the stuff I see the girls pick up is silly romantic stuff. Or male/male romances.

Another thing...while there are big box stores and convenience stores which sell comic books. I think I can count on maybe two hands the times I have seen teenage girls in comic book stores, or at the part of the comic book store which sells superhero stuff. It just baffles me as a business woman, why DC is revamping their books to fit a segment of the population which does not buy their product! It must be nice to have AOL/Time Warner to pay for your mess ups.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

We. Won. You. Lost.[/I])

Keep this crap up and you'll be banned.

This is your one and only warning.

Thank you.

[CBikle]

What? a reporter who is gunning for her. The old Kara wouln't have cared.


The effect that Cat Grant has on public opinion could also be used to generate interesting stories and show us (the readers) how Supergirl is perceived by the public and maybe the new Kara (who really is the "old" 1959 Kara) might care and that might make for interesting stories.


As an excuse for her past independent streak.

Something we haven't seen a million times on night time soaps. Hasn't this been done already on The OC or 90210?

There might be more to those plot points than that.

I like and watch soaps--and yes I read the X books (when there are decent writers on them). But I don't want to read the type of books that teenage girls flock to. One of the comic book stores I frequent sell a lot of manga and much of the stuff I see the girls pick up is silly romantic stuff. Or male/male romances.

Another thing...while there are big box stores and convenience stores which sell comic books. I think I can count on maybe two hands the times I have seen teenage girls in comic book stores, or at the part of the comic book store which sells superhero stuff. It just baffles me as a business woman, why DC is revamping their books to fit a segment of the population which does not buy their product! It must be nice to have AOL/Time Warner to pay for your mess ups.

Historically, Supergirl has always been DC's version of Dazzler; they always try to tie her into the latest fads, trends & fashions, but with publishing delays and comics editors not always being the "hippest" people to begin with...

[MNM]

From what I understand based on reading past comments about SUPERGIRL, the first 33 or so issues of this series were dreadful anyway; so unexplain most of it away and ignore the rest...

Cant agree with that. I read most of them, and while they may never trouble a "Greatest Comics Ever Written" list, they werent "dreadful".

[KET]

It's only 2 issues in and the current team has to clean up the debris left by previous teams.


Why? Previous teams on the book surely DIDN'T do that. Telling an honest-to-God NEW story with the title character would have been a far better fix than these last couple of issues of endless continuity apologia.



Also, Gates is employing a little more subtlety in his stories than the previous writers and hopefully, that's a good thing for this book.


Disagree. Gates has been doing little more than PLUGGING THE DAM of leaky plot points and schizophrenic directions this series has engendered since issue #1, and he's employing the usual 'sledgehammer in the refried Silver Age' approach. There's NOTHING subtle about what he's doing on this book at all.

Probably also explains why him and Igle have been seemingly 'everywhere' on the 'net doing overtime spin on this month's issue. Don't drink the 'Kool Aid' yet.

[KET]

Cant agree with that. I read most of them, and while they may never trouble a "Greatest Comics Ever Written" list, they werent "dreadful".

They weren't groundbreaking science-fiction either, so was there really an innate need for canonization?

[KET]

And the sales on the new issue jumped up 6,000 orders .

Mediocre event tie-in. Don't get your hopes up on temporary sales spikes. :biggrin:

[phantomblot]

Mediocre event tie-in. Don't get your hopes up on temporary sales spikes. :biggrin:

Actually those were before the tie in. Sorry to burst your sarcasm bubble.

[phantomblot]

Why? Previous teams on the book surely DIDN'T do that. Telling an honest-to-God NEW story with the title character would have been a far better fix than these last couple of issues of endless continuity apologia.
[/quote}
Yes because the rest of this series was so god damned interesting that it bled readers faster than Jamaican Bobsled team lost the Olympics.



[quote]

Disagree. Gates has been doing little more than PLUGGING THE DAM of leaky plot points and schizophrenic directions this series has engendered since issue #1, and he's employing the usual 'sledgehammer in the refried Silver Age' approach. There's NOTHING subtle about what he's doing on this book at all.

Probably also explains why him and Igle have been seemingly 'everywhere' on the 'net doing overtime spin on this month's issue. Don't drink the 'Kool Aid' yet.
No, He and Igle are all over the net because people have been praising this book,every review has been glowing and positive. I know it's a little shocking to you that people to actually like an issue of Supergirl.

[Mat001]

All Gates and Igle have been doing is following what Loeb started when he wrote that Kara's memories were fuzzy and her attitude was rather erratic. Kara's parents being alive was already established by Johns, Busiek and Nicieza when they did Action Comics #850 and showed that they were nothing like what Loeb and Kelly had been writing. Those previous stories still happened. Now she's trying to get her act together as we saw during Puckett's run.

[jamal Igle]

Why? Previous teams on the book surely DIDN'T do that. Telling an honest-to-God NEW story with the title character would have been a far better fix than these last couple of issues of endless continuity apologia.






Disagree. Gates has been doing little more than PLUGGING THE DAM of leaky plot points and schizophrenic directions this series has engendered since issue #1, and he's employing the usual 'sledgehammer in the refried Silver Age' approach. There's NOTHING subtle about what he's doing on this book at all.

Probably also explains why him and Igle have been seemingly 'everywhere' on the 'net doing overtime spin on this month's issue. Don't drink the 'Kool Aid' yet.
I didn't realize we were"all over the net " this month. News to me.

[Mia]

All Gates and Igle have been doing is following what Loeb started when he wrote that Kara's memories were fuzzy and her attitude was rather erratic. Kara's parents being alive was already established by Johns, Busiek and Nicieza when they did Action Comics #850 and showed that they were nothing like what Loeb and Kelly had been writing. Those previous stories still happened. Now she's trying to get her act together as we saw during Puckett's run.


Oh so the 'plugging' has been going on before Gates came aboard. I get it. I guess that finalizes it. Supergirl (as I know her) is dead. This Pollyanna version of her is here to stay. Thanks for the 411. I'll know not waste my money picking up the next issue. But I will make sure to pay attention to the sales.

[jamal Igle]

you've obviously have never read Pollyanna, or else you wouldn't be confusing Kara's attitude for hers.

[Mat001]

I liken it to what's been done on "Smallville", where they started out with the defiant Kara and slowly but surely, she matured and came to understand Clark. And sees that she has a lot of growing up to do. Judging from what I've seen so far and what the solicits hint at, Kara will still have her defiant attitude. She just won't come off as a bitch and will be more likeable than she has been since she debuted.

[Mia]

you've obviously have never read Pollyanna, or else you wouldn't be confusing Kara's attitude for hers.

No I haven't but I've seen the Hailey Mills film.

http://www.cyclinglogue.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/pollyanna-poster3.jpg

And the character in your comic book comes dangerously close to her. Since I have no interest in reading about a character (and a female one at that) whose raison d'etre. Is to crave the approval of others and to be happy and cheerfull all the time. Then it's time to cut my losses and spend my money on a book on a character who respects herself and doesn't sell herself short. Should you decide to give Supergirl back her spine and idependence, then let me know and I may pick up the book again.


I liken it to what's been done on "Smallville", where they started out with the defiant Kara and slowly but surely, she matured and came to understand Clark. And sees that she has a lot of growing up to do. Judging from what I've seen so far and what the solicits hint at, Kara will still have her defiant attitude. She just won't come off as a bitch and will be more likeable than she has been since she debuted.

I saw an interview with Laura Vandervoot prior to the debut of the show where she said that they were using the SG from her own book. Which means the Loeb interpretation.

I liked SG on Smallville. While she wasn't as arrogant as the SG who had been in the comics at that time. There was still an edginess which I liked and enjoyed. She was easygoing, however if you messed with that Kara she would get up in your face. I was embarassed to read the exchange between Kara and her mother in issue #35. The old Kara would never explain herself to anyone.

[jamal Igle]

No I haven't but I've seen the Hailey Mills film.

http://www.cyclinglogue.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/pollyanna-poster3.jpg

And the character in your comic book comes dangerously close to her. Since I have no interest in reading about a character (and a female one at that) whose raison d'etre. Is to crave the approval of others and to be happy and cheerfull all the time. Then it's time to cut my losses and spend my money on a book on a character who respects herself and doesn't sell herself short. Should you decide to give Supergirl back her spine and idependence, then let me know and I may pick up the book again.





I saw an interview with Laura Vandervoot prior to the debut of the show where she said that they were using the SG from her own book. Which means the Loeb interpretation.

I liked SG on Smallville. While she wasn't as arrogant as the SG who had been in the comics at that time. There was still an edginess which I liked and enjoyed. She was easygoing, however if you messed with that Kara she would get up in your face. I was embarassed to read the exchange between Kara and her mother in issue #35. The old Kara would never explain herself to anyone.
the "Old"Kara never had to deal with her parents before and If you never felt like you had to explain something to your parents to get your point across, well. I'm not going to make any assumptions about you. I don't know you, but I know teenagers. I know teenage girls, even angry ones(They're in my family). Frankly If they wanted to force her home, she really couldn't stop them. God forbid a character should actually have some sort of reasonable arguemnet for their motivations though.

Being arrogant and frankly a badly written "angry riiot girl" Stereotype doesn't give a character a spine, nor was she ever truly independent. She's actually been more independent on our two issues than she's been since this series started. We're giving her a fully fleshed out personality for once. I can see why that would be a problem for a certain set of fans who only want to see her going around being an unlikeable bitch. Personally, I never liked that about the revamp. She had no focus, no real personality other than being a snot to almost everyone she came across.

[CBikle]

On a side note, I like what you're doing on the book Jamal. In particular, I liked the shots of Kandor on page 9; they had a nice mixture of all the different Kryptonian architectures from the silver age, the Superman movie, etc.

[Mat001]

No I haven't but I've seen the Hailey Mills film.

http://www.cyclinglogue.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/pollyanna-poster3.jpg

And the character in your comic book comes dangerously close to her. Since I have no interest in reading about a character (and a female one at that) whose raison d'etre. Is to crave the approval of others and to be happy and cheerfull all the time. Then it's time to cut my losses and spend my money on a book on a character who respects herself and doesn't sell herself short. Should you decide to give Supergirl back her spine and idependence, then let me know and I may pick up the book again.

It's not that she is craving the approval. It's that she hasn't realized how much she has messed things up, part of which has come from her efforts to try and adapt. And possibly from the Kryptonite poisoning. She's making mistakes left and right and is only now realizing that her efforts are all for naught. She's a teen trying to show that she belongs and that she earned the name and uniform of Supergirl. In the Post Crisis continuity, only Supergirl/Linda Danvers/Matrix/Earth Angel was ever Supergirl and when Linda gave it up, Clark gave the identity to Kara. Now Kara has to show that she's earned it.

I saw an interview with Laura Vandervoot prior to the debut of the show where she said that they were using the SG from her own book. Which means the Loeb interpretation.

Yes, but this was back before "Beyond Good And Evil" and "New Krypton". Back when "Candor" and "Identity" were going on. As her character evolved in the comics, so did she evolve in the show.

I liked SG on Smallville. While she wasn't as arrogant as the SG who had been in the comics at that time. There was still an edginess which I liked and enjoyed. She was easygoing, however if you messed with that Kara she would get up in your face. I was embarassed to read the exchange between Kara and her mother in issue #35. The old Kara would never explain herself to anyone.

And as to her mother, well, dealing with parents is different from dealing with Reactron or Power Girl. Only those who are truly damaged will balk at their parents when having to address what they've done. Kara has her parents alive now and she's finding that while she still loves them dearly, she still doesn't agree with them. They want her to quit trying to be who she is becoming, in favor of what she was on Argo.

[Mia]

Being arrogant and frankly a badly written "angry riiot girl" Stereotype doesn't give a character a spine, nor was she ever truly independent. She's actually been more independent on our two issues than she's been since this series started.




I take it that you never ever read the first 19 issues, or any of her appearances in Superman/Batman have you. Because if you have you would have not have made such a silly and ridiculous statement.

How is she independent? She used to live on her own. One of my favourite scenes was in SG #9 when Supergirl goes to Batman to sell her ‘Sourcedoc’. Batman offers to give her some money instead. But she refuses to take his charity or a hand out, and insists in a fair exchange. Kara's not a freeloader.

But what do we have now? We have her living with her Aunt and running to Superman for a pat on the back. Yeah that’s independent. :rolleyes:



We're giving her a fully fleshed out personality for once.

Personality? What you mean the modern day Pollyanna or Shirley Temple? Or is the cartoon ‘Kim Possible’ Sterling Gates claims he is using as an influence the character.


I can see why that would be a problem for a certain set of fans who only want to see her going around being an unlikeable bitch. Personally, I never liked that about the revamp. She had no focus, no real personality other than being a snot to almost everyone she came across.

She might be an unlikable ‘bitch’ to you. But she certainly wasn’t an unlikable bitch to the 50K readers who were reading the book on an ongoing basis (higher sales numbers than you have achieved by the way). Kara’s personality was rather consistent with the type of teenager or even person who had come from an abusive background. It was interesting to see Supergirl deal with problems in situations in different ways. But DC decided to kill that. According to DC Superheroes should have no problems whatsoever. They shouldn’t hurt or have feelings. They should be happy and gleeful all the time. Just like Pollyanna or a character from a Shirley Temple movie. Whatever


I’m done with this book.

If I want to see a happy and gleeful teenage girl, I’ll go watch an old Hailey Mills film.

[Mia]

It's not that she is craving the approval. It's that she hasn't realized how much she has messed things up, part of which has come from her efforts to try and adapt. And possibly from the Kryptonite poisoning. She's making mistakes left and right and is only now realizing that her efforts are all for naught. She's a teen trying to show that she belongs and that she earned the name and uniform of Supergirl. In the Post Crisis continuity, only Supergirl/Linda Danvers/Matrix/Earth Angel was ever Supergirl and when Linda gave it up, Clark gave the identity to Kara. Now Kara has to show that she's earned it.



The thing I liked about the old Kara. Is when she messed up (like in the Christmas special-awesome story). She would try and fix her mess. She didn't start blubbering like a baby and go running to Clarke. Yes Kara wanted to belong, but she wouldn't metaphorically 'get on her hind legs' like a puppy to do so. She was way too proud to beg people to love her.

You might be happy with this characterisation. But I personally find it degrading. I like my comic book heroines to have some self-respect.

[CYOTI]

The thing I liked about the old Kara. Is when she messed up (like in the Christmas special-awesome story). She would try and fix her mess. She didn't start blubbering like a baby and go running to Clarke..
Yeah because having one angry mother like in that Christmas story is exactly like having an entire city believing that you are irresponsible and unfit to be Supergirl and having them lob objects at you like you are Ron Artest.

[md62]

She might be an unlikable ‘bitch’ to you. But she certainly wasn’t an unlikable bitch to the 50K readers who were reading the book on an ongoing basis (higher sales numbers than you have achieved by the way). Kara’s personality was rather consistent with the type of teenager or even person who had come from an abusive background.

Sorry but she was unlikeable. And the title shed readers from selling over 100,000 to about 30,000 by the time Gates & Igle came on the book. And as far as Kara's personality - it just didn't fit. That is not Supergirl. DC should have created a whole new character rather than shoehorn a new personality on a character that has a name that readers would have certain expectations about.

[jamal Igle]

The thing I liked about the old Kara. Is when she messed up (like in the Christmas special-awesome story). She would try and fix her mess. She didn't start blubbering like a baby and go running to Clarke. Yes Kara wanted to belong, but she wouldn't metaphorically 'get on her hind legs' like a puppy to do so. She was way too proud to beg people to love her.

You might be happy with this characterisation. But I personally find it degrading. I like my comic book heroines to have some self-respect.

you have a strange concept of what self respect means then. One, she didn't go blubbering to Clark, he went to her because he knew she might be hurting, you know, being Superman? two, no where in the last two issues did she beg anyone to love her. Obviously , you're not really reading the book because you haven't gotten a single plot point correct.

[Mat001]

You might be happy with this characterisation. But I personally find it degrading. I like my comic book heroines to have some self-respect.

Don't like it, don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out.

Sorry but she was unlikeable. And the title shed readers from selling over 100,000 to about 30,000 by the time Gates & Igle came on the book. And as far as Kara's personality - it just didn't fit. That is not Supergirl. DC should have created a whole new character rather than shoehorn a new personality on a character that has a name that readers would have certain expectations about.

QFT. You know it's bad when people were wanting her to die in "Final Crisis", before Gates and Igle came on board. Or you have people demanding Greg Rucka and Tony Berard to come back before the current team came on.The series did have hight sales because of curiousity and because of the creative team when the book launched. But unfortunately, despite the fact that Kelly can write good stories, the ones he wrote for Kara weren't as good as his Clark stories. Much less Daredevil or his JLA run. Puckett did the best that he could and so far, Gates has done pretty well. Sales went down because people didn't like the story and didn't like Kara's personality.

Also, there's the difference between Kara refusing money from Bruce and Kara taking Lana's advice. Kara thought she didn't need help then, but she realizes that she does now. She's a teenager and despite what you anyone may think, they will always need guidence from either their parents or a parental figure.

[WorstThingUS]

Since numbers keep getting bandied about, let go to the numbers.

When Supergirl #1 came out, it was 123K easy (I'm rounding off numbers here). This is a combination of a first issue, the relaunch of loved character and spinning out of Superman/Batman which was never under 100K+ at the time. However, by the by the time Kelly came onboard, enthusiasm had waned. His first issue, #9, was 71K and while his supporters love to trumpet the 50K number, the simple truth was he was down to 51K by #15 and his final issue was #19 at 49K. Puckett came onboard with #23 at 44K (the three issues in between were Tony Bedard fill-ins and all crossovers with either Amazons Attack or Countdown). He fared no better and by the time he ended it was at about 28K.

Gates and Igle started out at 34K with #34 and that's without the New Krypton storyline which will most likely bump it up, given Robinson's Superman lost 8K in his first three issues, but got them back with the beginning of New Krypton.

[Sean Whitmore]

Mia, for God's sake, learn an adjective other than Pollyanna.

I don't mind someone making the exact same argument for two or three years running, but at least disguise it a little with some variety of language.


SEAN

[Mia]

Sorry but she was unlikeable. And the title shed readers from selling over 100,000 to about 30,000 by the time Gates & Igle came on the book. And as far as Kara's personality - it just didn't fit. That is not Supergirl. DC should have created a whole new character rather than shoehorn a new personality on a character that has a name that readers would have certain expectations about.

The sales had leveled off to 50K when Kelly left. When Beddard and Puckett came on board they did a complete change to the character (who is pretty much similar to the one who Gates is writing) and sales plunged in further.



Don't like it, don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out.

No I prefer not let it hit me in the pocket book.



QFT. You know it's bad when people were wanting her to die in "Final Crisis", before Gates and Igle came on board. Or you have people demanding Greg Rucka and Tony Berard to come back before the current team came on.The series did have hight sales because of curiousity and because of the creative team when the book launched. But unfortunately, despite the fact that Kelly can write good stories, the ones he wrote for Kara weren't as good as his Clark stories. Much less Daredevil or his JLA run. Puckett did the best that he could and so far, Gates has done pretty well. Sales went down because people didn't like the story and didn't like Kara's personality.



That's right. Sales went down because people didn't like Kara's personality. They were at 50K units when Kelly was taken off the book. And plunged even further down to 30K by time Puckett left. And even with the current team the sales still haven’t climbed up to where they were before. What does that tell you? People might not have liked the SG with the first 19 issues. But the fact that they like this incarnation even less now.

It just baffles me as a business person why a company would continue on a business model that isn’t working.




you have a strange concept of what self respect means then. One, she didn't go blubbering to Clark, he went to her because he knew she might be hurting, you know, being Superman? two, no where in the last two issues did she beg anyone to love her. Obviously , you're not really reading the book because you haven't gotten a single plot point correct.

Indeed.

If she’s not begging people to love her, then why is she wasting time getting upset about criticism from others? If that’s not craving approval I don’t know what is. It’s a pathetic characterization to a once proud character. People who respect themselves are not ruled by the opinions of others.

[Mia]

Mia, for God's sake, learn an adjective other than Pollyanna.

I don't mind someone making the exact same argument for two or three years running, but at least disguise it a little with some variety of language.


SEAN

Gee I thought that I did:


Personality? What you mean the modern day Pollyanna or Shirley Temple? Or is the cartoon ‘Kim Possible’ Sterling Gates claims he is using as an influence the character.
.

And


If I want to see a happy and gleeful teenage girl, I’ll go watch an old Hailey Mills film.

By the way if you have a problem with my argument's or my posts then please feel free to ignore them. It's what I generally do with yours. :wink:

[Sean Whitmore]

By the way if you have a problem with my argument's or my posts then please feel free to ignore them. It's what I generally do with yours. :wink:

Everyone's, apparently.


SEAN

[Mia]

Everyone's, apparently.


SEAN

Not at all. I enjoy reading posts from insightful,polite and intelligent people. However I don't consider you to be any of the above. Which is why I normally make it a point not to read much less respond to anything you post.

[Sean Whitmore]

Not at all. I enjoy reading posts from insightful,polite and intelligent people.

And responding with the same mindless, parroting comment over and over and over again.


SEAN

[Mia]

And responding with the same mindless, parroting comment over and over and over again.


SEAN

Not at all. I enjoy reading posts from insightful,polite and intelligent people. However I don't consider you to be any of the above. Which is why I normally make it a point not to read much less respond to anything you post.

I rest my case.

[carabas]

That's right. Sales went down because people didn't like Kara's personality. They were at 50K units when Kelly was taken off the book. And plunged even further down to 30K by time Puckett left. And even with the current team the sales still haven’t climbed up to where they were before. What does that tell you? People might not have liked the SG with the first 19 issues. But the fact that they like this incarnation even less now.I doubt that Supergirl's personality is all that importanty a factor in the sales of the book.
Jeph Frelling Loeb is a much bigger attraction than Joe Kelly, who far outclasses Tony Bedard in the name recognition polls.

Also, your sales claims are simply not true. They were at ca. 50K when Kelly left, but they didn't show an inclination of staying at 50K.


05/2006: Supergirl #6 — 102,860 (- 0.2%) (Rucka debuts)
07/2006: Supergirl #7 — 85,175 (-17.2%) (Kelly debuts)
07/2006: Supergirl #8 — 76,942 (- 9.7%)
08/2006: Supergirl #9 — 74,252 (- 3.5%)
09/2006: Supergirl #10 — 67,358 (- 9.3%)
11/2006: Supergirl #11 — 62,544 (- 7.2%)
12/2006: Supergirl #12 — 59,819 (- 4.4%)
12/2006: Supergirl #13 — 56,648 (- 5.3%)
02/2007: Supergirl #14 — 52,977 (- 6.5%)
03/2007: Supergirl #15 — 51,083 (- 3.6%)
04/2007: Supergirl #16 — 51,641 (+ 1.1%) (first Churchil-free issue)
05/2007: Supergirl #17 — 50,429 (- 2.4%)
06/2007: Supergirl #18 — 50,279 (- 0.3%) (pre-Crisis Supergirl appearance)
07/2007: Supergirl #19 — 48,576 (- 3.4%) (Kelly's Last issue)
08/2007: Supergirl #20 — 46,862 (- 3.5%)
09/2007: Supergirl #21 — 44,656 (- 4.7%)
10/2007: Supergirl #22 — 41,758 (- 6.5%)
11/2007: Supergirl #23 — 45,460 (+ 8.9%) (Pucket's debut)
12/2007: Supergirl #24 — 37,922 (-16.6%)
01/2008: Supergirl #25 — 36,459 (- 3.9%)
02/2008: Supergirl #26 — 34,186 (- 6.2%)
03/2008: Supergirl #27 — 32,596 (- 4.7%)
10/2007: Supergirl #22 — 41,758 (- 6.5%)
04/2008: Supergirl #28 — 31,379 (- 3.7%)
05/2008: Supergirl #29 — 30,192 (- 3.8%)
06/2008: Supergirl #30 — 29,553 (- 2.1%)
07/2008: Supergirl #31 — 28,813 (- 2.5%)
08/2008: Supergirl #32 — 28,114 (- 2.4%)
09/2008: Supergirl #33 — 27,609 (- 1.8%)

[carabas]

Oh, and #35 was my first since #2 or #3, and I find it greatly improved by giving Kara a personality and a less sureal anatomy.

[jamal Igle]

If she’s not begging people to love her, then why is she wasting time getting upset about criticism from others? If that’s not craving approval I don’t know what is. It’s a pathetic characterization to a once proud character. People who respect themselves are not ruled by the opinions of others.

It's not just criticism, it's an article in a major newspaper telling the public at large she's a danger and unworthy to bear her families crest. Pointing out every mistake she's made from attacking the Trinity to downing Air Force one to the Cancer boy situation.In the real world, such an article would upset anyone with actual emotions. You do see the difference, I l hope. I mean, I know you seem to exist in this netherworld where everyone is an emotionless drone, but on the earthly plane for anyone with good self esteem,negative criticism still bothers them a bit.

[WorstThingUS]

I doubt that Supergirl's personality is all that importanty a factor in the sales of the book.
Jeph Frelling Loeb is a much bigger attraction than Joe Kelly, who far outclasses Tony Bedard in the name recognition polls.

Also, your sales claims are simply not true. They were at ca. 50K when Kelly left, but they didn't show an inclination of staying at 50K.


I made the same point and you'll notice it was dutifully ignored. The simple fact is Kelly lost 20,000 readers in his tenure and by the end was losing 1,000 a month so their "but we had sales" argument is bunk.

[Mat001]

The sales had leveled off to 50K when Kelly left. When Beddard and Puckett came on board they did a complete change to the character (who is pretty much similar to the one who Gates is writing) and sales plunged in further.


No, sales plunged after Rucka left and during Kelly's run, because his stories weren't that great. Bedard was only on for two issues, Palmotti and Gray were on for one and Puckett's run was also bashed. Save for Bedard's run, the book has been criticized because of poor writing and a lack of direction. Gates has only been on for two issues. There will be a bump in sales because "New Krypton" and combined with the buzz that's building with Gates and Igle at the helm, the book will make a come back. Poor writing and characterization.

That's right. Sales went down because people didn't like Kara's personality. They were at 50K units when Kelly was taken off the book. And plunged even further down to 30K by time Puckett left. And even with the current team the sales still haven’t climbed up to where they were before. What does that tell you? People might not have liked the SG with the first 19 issues. But the fact that they like this incarnation even less now.

It just baffles me as a business person why a company would continue on a business model that isn’t working.

They have been changing it. They cleared up Kara's origin and made her likeable. They've got a creative team that's had strong buzz since Loeb and Rucka.

If she’s not begging people to love her, then why is she wasting time getting upset about criticism from others? If that’s not craving approval I don’t know what is. It’s a pathetic characterization to a once proud character. People who respect themselves are not ruled by the opinions of others.

It's not just criticism, it's an article in a major newspaper telling the public at large she's a danger and unworthy to bear her families crest. Pointing out every mistake she's made from attacking the Trinity to downing Air Force one to the Cancer boy situation.In the real world, such an article would upset anyone with actual emotions. You do see the difference, I l hope. I mean, I know you seem to exist in this netherworld where everyone is an emotionless drone, but on the earthly plane for anyone with good self esteem,negative criticism still bothers them a bit.

Indeed. Kara's finally realizing that she's a screw-up.That despite her best efforts, no one appreciates them. Look at what happend when Reactron hit Metropolis. People didn't want to be saved by Supergirl. They wanted to be saved by Superman. Kara saves a guy and injuries his arm in the process. People turn on her. Kara saves Cat and Jimmy, but while Jimmy forgives her, Cat won't. Kara stops Silver Banshee and saves a baseball player, but is she thanked for her efforts? Kara has become a menace in the eyes of so many. And it bothers her that none of the other heroes, especially her cousin, are treated like this. When Kara reads Cat's article, essentially telling her that no one gives a damn about her, it hurts. It finally gets through to her that people don't like her. Trust me, if you were to stand in a baseball stadium getting pelted with crap and told you suck and you're worthless, you'd care.

[titanfan]

The term "likeable" is a subjective thing. I think this is an attempt to make Kara "nicer", but as a character, I could really relate to her struggles early on as she tried to find the place where she felt she could belong.

I was looking forward to watching her grow over the life of the book. What I don't want to see happen is to see the "radiation poisoning" thing be used to give her a total personality makeover all of a sudden. Yeah, the way she was portrayed in her book wasn't the heroic Supergirl we all know she'll become, but that doesn't mean it has to be an instant transformation either. (I'm not saying it will be either...)

[Mat001]

The term "likeable" is a subjective thing. I think this is an attempt to make Kara "nicer", but as a character, I could really relate to her struggles early on as she tried to find the place where she felt she could belong.

And she's still doing that.

I was looking forward to watching her grow over the life of the book. What I don't want to see happen is to see the "radiation poisoning" thing be used to give her a total personality makeover all of a sudden. Yeah, the way she was portrayed in her book wasn't the heroic Supergirl we all know she'll become, but that doesn't mean it has to be an instant transformation either. (I'm not saying it will be either...)

Well, I believe it was Gates or perhaps Igle who have said that there will be a happy balance between the two.