THUNDERBOLTS #126 - Spoilers

[sHayden]

While I have had my major let downs with both DC and Marvel as of late, I am disgustingly into this book each and every month. Ellis' run was one of the most brilliant and enjoyable bits of work I have read in ages. (admittedly, I am an Ellis nut)
But what they have done with Norman Osborn is genius and Bullseye..well, what a fun, sadistic bastard.
While I enjoyed Gage's work, the new team kept my interest as well, which is pleasing as well as surprising. Usually with a change over you have a sort of "getting warmed up" period.

---SPOILER ALERT--
And as for #126, I know Songbird has plenty of fans, but oh would I love to see Bullseye knife her. That, and Moonstone get her ass handed to her.


Though I don't notice this book whizzing off the shelf at my LCS. Is anybody else on board with Thunderbolts like I am.

[Red Lotus]

Yeah this was a fun read. Osborn making his big stand and telling Congress that the CSA and all the other groups played a big part in help in the Skrulls was great. He has everyone where he wants them to be and his power play is playing out perfect. I like how before he moves on he is taken out the T Bolts who he hates.

[Dr. Chaos]

Good first issue from Andy Diggle, nailed the characters and the grim/dark/sleazy tone of The Thunderbolts perfectly. Wasn't a fan of the Gage issues but I didn't want to give up on the series so thankfully I'm back on board.

I'm abit surprised the Radioactive Man/Songbird scene flew over James Hunt's (CBR reviewer) head though. I thought it was pretty obvious that the camaraderie between the two could be heading in that direction at any moment looking back through the various Ellis issues and Gage's first one shot.

Probably my favorite part of this issue was Moonstone letting Robbie have it and verbally emasculating him, I'm not one to particularly root for her but man did I want to high five her for handling that lil ball of neurosis.

[Deus ex Chris]

Probably my favorite part of this issue was Moonstone letting Robbie have it and verbally emasculating him, I'm not one to particularly root for her but man did I want to high five her for handling that lil ball of neurosis.
That was my favorite scene of the book, and I'm definitely one to root for her. Moonstone is at her best when she's being unapologetically naughty. I love it.

This was a strong first issue for the new creative team. The lack of Ellis is still quite noticeable, but it's clear that Diggle is doing his own thing. That's a smart thing to do. Anyway, go buy it. It looks promising.

[Monty_Cristo]

i wish Deodato had stuck around. it would really help the transition/keeping this book popular. the writing is still up to the par, thankfully.


Yeah this was a fun read. Osborn making his big stand and telling Congress that the CSA and all the other groups played a big part in help in the Skrulls was great. He has everyone where he wants them to be and his power play is playing out perfect. I like how before he moves on he is taken out the T Bolts who he hates.

Norman's pragmatic and a very good at dealing with politicians. i think SHIELD should have approached him about heading up SHRA, in the first place.

[rogerio]

oh man..I really need to get my copy...:smile:

[VagrantStyle]

dang what happened to Stormin Norman's cornrows?

[Big Red Spider]

i wish Deodato had stuck around. it would really help the transition/keeping this book popular. the writing is still up to the par, thankfully.

His art really fits well with the tone of the book. I don't think that someone with a cartoony style could pull it off.


dang what happened to Stormin Norman's cornrows?

The man has lost his curl somehow.

[spacesheep]

Damn! I don't want radioactive man to leave. T.T He is my color (chinese) and I can relate to him!

Will Diggle kill off songbird? I mean she's is the only redeemer on this current team before the next recruits join in for dark reign.

[spacesheep]

True, but I gotta say the art is better than the previous illustrators during the gaps between and after Ellis' two story arcs.

[rajincajun689]

Can someone post a summary please?

[Dr. Chaos]

Damn! I don't want radioactive man to leave. T.T He is my color (chinese) and I can relate to him!
God willing, he'll be back.

But hopefully not before they kill off Songbird before she can turn the damn team into another batch of pre-Ellis goody two shoes.

Can't help but feel like that might be where Andy is going with this...hope I'm wrong though, the Thunderbolts work so much better as this kind of book.

In all seriousness, Songbird will live but I can't really see how things could work out at this point after what they're doing with her.

The psychic turns everybody crazy incident was one thing but things are really coming to a boil this time where the team won't be able to function whatsoever going forward if either Swordsman, Songbird or Penance are still alive and on duty after this.

Someone's going to have to pull a huge rabbit out of their hat/ass for this one.

[DaleKaleD]

Granted I haven't read this yet, but I hope that they don't do anything serious with Songbird that might rule out the "Possible Future" that was shown in Avengers Forever.
I liked the implied showing that they had gotten to a point in her development that she was an actual Avenger, not just a Thunderbolt. At the time it seemed to be a good glance at where her evolving moral compass was turning. And while they have kept that character development to her character over the years, it seems that outside of a select few she hasn't really gotten the recognition that would in the near future lead to an Avengers slot.

[Dr. Chaos]

After reading up on Dark Reign, if things are what they look like and this is going where I think it is....wow, this book is in for some serious change.

Hopefully it's not the future I'm thinking of though because it's not all good (in other words, a step back).

[Monty_Cristo]

Doctor Chen Lu has been one of the best-written asian heroes around. and he actually has some competition in that area (amadeus cho, wondra, karma, battalus, big hero six, colleen wing, bengal, shang chi, komodo, nico minoru, jimmy woo, etc.)


Granted I haven't read this yet, but I hope that they don't do anything serious with Songbird that might rule out the "Possible Future" that was shown in Avengers Forever..

like kill off Jack of Hearts and Genis?

[spacesheep]

Can someone post a summary please?

Summary: (hi-light to read)
Swordsman cremates his clone sister and vows to kill Osborn after his contract is over.
Norman Osborn blames C.S.A., SHIELD, SWORD, and the Initiative for SI, and he has resigned as Thunderbolt Director.
Moonstone has neutralized Penance and to my understanding unleashes venom.
Radioactive Man returns to China due to SI aftermath
Songbird ends up with Bullseye pointing a bladed throwing dart in a similar area above the spinal cord like what happened to Jack Flag.

[gorthon616]

Summary: (hi-light to read)
Swordsman cremates his clone sister and vows to kill Osborn after his contract is over.
Norman Osborn blames C.S.A., SHIELD, SWORD, and the Initiative for SI, and he has resigned as Thunderbolt Director.
Moonstone has neutralized Penance and to my understanding unleashes venom.
Radioactive Man returns to China due to SI aftermath
Songbird ends up with Bullseye pointing a bladed throwing dart in a similar area above the spinal cord like what happened to Jack Flag.


Wow. Doubt he'll hit though. Songbird should just sonic-armor up (even if she was crippled she could still use her powers to move around and kick his ass anyways). On the other hand, her being hit puts her into a position to need to be rescued by Zemo and thus lead into the new Thunderbolts team.

[Dr. Chaos]

Ugh.

Keep Zemo (and TB nostalgia in general) away from this team, Diggle.

[spacesheep]

Yeah Dr. Chaos, I do enjoy the struggles written about songbird being in a team of psychopaths.

Reading through the dark reign boards and looking at the dark avengers cover. If Osborn, Bullseye, Swordsman, Moonstone, and Venom are the dark avengers in disguise, which is plausible due to Osborn leaving, then what the hell is left of thunderbolts?

Btw Monty, thanks i might read more into Jimmy Woo. I remember seeing him in Secret Wars.

[lonewolf23k]

Ugh.

Keep Zemo (and TB nostalgia in general) away from this team, Diggle.

Right, who wants Thunderbolts nostalgia on a book called... What was it again?

Oh, right! THE THUNDERBOLTS!

Frankly, I'm glad this team of posers is getting disbanded. What Songbird needs to do is turn the tables on Bullseye, shove his own blades through his eyes, then rescue Robbie and take him to Zemo, so the three of them can rebuild the Thunderbolts as God intended: a team of well-intentionned outlaws trying to do good.

...Preferably while shoving Osborn, Bullseye, Moonshadow and Venom through a woodchipper.

[gorthon616]

Right, who wants Thunderbolts nostalgia on a book called... What was it again?

Oh, right! THE THUNDERBOLTS!

Frankly, I'm glad this team of posers is getting disbanded. What Songbird needs to do is turn the tables on Bullseye, shove his own blades through his eyes, then rescue Robbie and take him to Zemo, so the three of them can rebuild the Thunderbolts as God intended: a team of well-intentionned outlaws trying to do good.

...Preferably while shoving Osborn, Bullseye, Moonstone and Venom through a woodchipper.

For the record, I enjoyed both Thunderbolt takes.

And I don't really see what other direction they can take. Songbird just starts up some random team doesn't seem like a winning story. If Thunderbolts isn't riding on the back of CW/Ellis A-List villains, then the only other option is to go back and touch on old material. Zemo is actually the perfect person for the role, as he was the anti-establishment bad guy trying to be a hero before the establishment was bad.

I don't think they'll be played cleanly though. I think Songbird getting attacked by Bullseye is a set-up for her getting PO'ed and going more hostile to the government. I mean, she stuck with the team through CW/SHRA only to see it be a horrendous mess and that tried to kill her. I don't think the team is going to be "let's stop a crime and then run when the authorities." I could see the team doing something like...

Zemo: "Sentator John Johnjoeguy. Head of the SHRA's, new "Whisper" division. A tech-team developing telepathic murmurs that operate at such low frequency that they are undetectable by conventional telepaths. Currently the team is still in the developmental stages at whereabouts unknown."
Songbird: "They're going to mind control the public?"
Zemo: "More like mind-nudge. High-level activity would trigger any number of telepaths of what is going on. Low-level activity is indistinguishable from normal telepathic noise. He is our only link to the project. We need to know how far they are and where the site is."
Penance: "How do you expect us to do that?"
Zemo: "... by doing whatever we have to do."

And yes, the dialogue is a bit sucky. I'm more an idea arm-chair-writer.

[Dr. Chaos]

Right, who wants Thunderbolts nostalgia on a book called... What was it again?

Oh, right! THE THUNDERBOLTS!
No, the people who made The Thunderbolts a success in the HERE AND NOW want to read about Ellis' evolution of the series.

Thats right, the "evolution" of the team into something far more fascinating, intriguing, unique and entertaining then your lil nostalgia trip could ever be.

I know change is scary and some comic book fans have conditioned themselves to be afraid of it but it's not the 90s anymore. You want to read the same damn thing? Go read some back issues or build a time machine, the rest of us will be over here, you know...moving forward.

[gorthon616]

No, the people who made The Thunderbolts a success in the HERE AND NOW want to read about Ellis' evolution of the series.

Thats right, the "evolution" of the team into something far more fascinating, intriguing, unique and entertaining then your lil nostalgia trip could ever be.

I know change is scary and some comic book fans have conditioned themselves to be afraid of it but it's not the 90s anymore. You want to read the same damn thing? Go read some back issues or build a time machine, the rest of us will be over here, you know...moving forward.

You can't say "let's move forward" and at the same time say "but let's make it the same as Ellis's run." I don't mind that you prefer Ellis's run, but you're delusional if you think you're in some sort of superior position about moving forward when you are talking about the past.

If you really want to move forward, you'd accept that what you liked is done with and accept what is coming, whether that's more cannibal-Venom or Baron Zemo or Paste-Pot-Pete's adventures in juggling.

[Dr. Chaos]

And to add, to me, hearing people saying Bullseye and Venom are posers is the same thing as saying Wolverine and Spider-Man can't be Avengers.

It's petty, it's trifle, it's narrow minded. The need to keep superheroes uniform and away from the fears of innovation.

And I'm glad Bendis fought the fans on it and kept moving forward (and raking in the dough for taking chances instead of playing it safe for the oldschool crowd), I'd hate to see Diggle give into that sort of mentality, especially considering he's shown a gift for a darker Thunderbolts writing style.

[gorthon616]

And to add, to me, hearing people saying Bullseye and Venom are posers is the same thing as saying Wolverine and Spider-Man can't be Avengers.

It's petty, it's trifle, it's narrow minded. The need to keep superheroes uniform and away from the fears of innovation.

And I'm glad Bendis fought the fans on it and kept moving forward (and raking in the dough for taking chances instead of playing it safe for the oldschool fans), I'd hate to see Diggle give into that sort of mentality, especially considering he's shown a gift for a darker Thunderbolts writing style.

I think it's a "petty, trifle, and narrow-minded" point of view to claim people who would enjoy Zemo (or whatever) as being "petty, trifle, and narrow-minded."

But, el oh el. I doubt there is a point to arguing this.

[Dr. Chaos]

Okay, in hindsight, I think I want to apologize to any old format TB fans I may have slighted, I can see my asshole is showing tonight.

Though I do stand by the general points.

You're doing good, Andy....stay the course, friend.

[mikekerr3]

That was my favorite scene of the book, and I'm definitely one to root for her. Moonstone is at her best when she's being unapologetically naughty. I love it.

This was a strong first issue for the new creative team. The lack of Ellis is still quite noticeable, but it's clear that Diggle is doing his own thing. That's a smart thing to do. Anyway, go buy it. It looks promising.

Naughty you have to be F(&*()&(* kidding me she is being psychotically vile and a completly sadistic villain, that's is not naughty that is just being scum.

It does go with marvels main moral scheme of late though, no sense of what the term hero means and the scum usually wins,.

[Webslinger86]

This was an awesome read. I definitely look forward to see the new TBolts team in action. However, dark things won't last forever, and that there's always a light at the end of that tunnel. So maybe not now, but in the future we'll get back the Thunderbolts we use to know.

Call it nostalgia, but I enjoy both takes on the Thunderbolts. So bring it on Andy Diggle, because I'm on for the run!

[mikekerr3]

Norman's pragmatic and a very good at dealing with politicians. i think SHIELD should have approached him about heading up SHRA, in the first place.

They should have put him in a heavy wooden chair, after a fair trial and fried his ass.

Al though doing what you propose would have made it easier to make anti-SHRa arguments. In fact there would have been no doubt that the Pro's were right and no moral abigiuty at all would have been left. It would have been bad guys with badges against good guys with no gray area at all.


Right, who wants Thunderbolts nostalgia on a book called... What was it again?

Oh, right! THE THUNDERBOLTS!

Frankly, I'm glad this team of posers is getting disbanded. What Songbird needs to do is turn the tables on Bullseye, shove his own blades through his eyes, then rescue Robbie and take him to Zemo, so the three of them can rebuild the Thunderbolts as God intended: a team of well-intentionned outlaws trying to do good.

...Preferably while shoving Osborn, Bullseye, Moonshadow and Venom through a woodchipper.

That I agree on and lould like, except Gargan tries to be a good guy sometimes.The core concept of the Thunderbolst used to be redemption


And to add, to me, hearing people saying Bullseye and Venom are posers is the same thing as saying Wolverine and Spider-Man can't be Avengers.

It's petty, it's trifle, it's narrow minded. The need to keep superheroes uniform and away from the fears of innovation.
.

Poser is a good word, infact the perfect Word, Bullsey, Osborne and Moonstone have been posing as heros while still remmaing villians.

Please explain to me what Bullseye has to do with super-heroes. He is the same sick bastard he always has been,. a sadistic killer with no redeeming values or interest in much else than pain and death. Please tell me what that has to do with any interpretation of the word hero.

don;t have enough latent sadism in me to enjoy this book anymore. the wrighting and are are very good but the theme is that pramatism and power overides all moral values. I am not masochistic enough to enjoy wallowing in filth any longer.

The scene with Norma In the crown (Nuremberg rally anyone?) shows what i believe a great hatred of ordinary people. I the MU the public has has always been bigoted stupid and panicky but this is too damned much. I guess the SI is standing in for the Reichstag fire. How much do you have to despise the American public to show them like that even in a comic book.

I am beginning to think that the people putting out this book hate everything I believe in and want to drag it all into the sewer. I can't think of any other reason for this course. It seems that Ellis and company believe that heroism, homor, justice and Morals are passe', and stupidity like that I won't pay for.

This is my last isuue

[VagrantStyle]

Naughty you have to be F(&*()&(* kidding me she is being psychotically vile and a completly sadistic villain, that's is not naughty that is just being scum.

well he did put her through a wall or two.

[seeso]

Whoa, this looks really promising. I'm so glad they didn't give the book to Gage. Diggle hit it out of the park on his first issue. Wow.

I was among those happy to see Penance get the lashing he deserved, that whiny punk.

But I really don't want Songbird to die. I hope she can escape somehow.

[humpa]

Looks like evil is the new in thing.

Well guys what's gonna happen is Osbourne, Venom, Bullseye, & Moonstone are most likely going to become the Dark Avengers.

Thunderbolts book will be revamped probably for a team who actually wants redemption.

[mikekerr3]

Looks like evil is the new in thing.

Well guys what's gonna happen is Osbourne, Venom, Bullseye, & Moonstone are most likely going to become the Dark Avengers.

Thunderbolts book will be revamped probably for a team who actually wants redemption.

Then I will read the book again

[bubbalee33]

Although I prefer the older TB style, I have enjoyed this run a lot. I dont mind change, however it is done, as long as it is well done. Im looking forward to reading this issue tomorrow, cant wait.

[jackolover]

---SPOILER ALERT--
And as for #126, I know Songbird has plenty of fans, but oh would I love to see Bullseye knife her. That, and Moonstone get her ass handed to her.
.

I have read some posters opinion on Andy Diggles work and I have to say, his style slots right in with Warren Ellis. He gives us sexual tension between Strucker and Songbird. How very tender for Mellisa to accompany Strucker at his sisters funeral, and how very poignant that Mellisa is next on the funeral pyre.
Then comes Chen Lu and his expressions of affection for Mellisa. Not surprising, considering Chen and Mellisa were the closest.

But his handling of the Dark Reign buildup, of Norman Osborn was chilling. Andy can nail Normans voice very well. (We can also place the AI annual after this issue, because Woodman gets killed in that issue). Just the tone of Osborn and the way he is dismissive of the Senate commitee, as well as his resignation from an organisation that he is a prisoner too, lets us know that now with the new presidents ear, Osborn can treat people how he likes, and get away with it. I like the way Osborn, in one long sentence, can dismantle the whole SHRA structure, without actually stating so. This is one of the most startling sequences in the book, and lets us know that the world has in fact changed.

Then to the TBolts mountain. I don't know what alliances have been struck, but it looks like Osborn and Bullseye are in accord, and Moonstone and Venom are together. The ambush of Robbie and his kidnapping, just shows the total deteriaration of the TBolts and the eventual collapse of the team. None of these psychos is going to allow the others to come out of this alive. The only one not involved so far is Strucker, and he knows whats coming.

All in all Andy Diggle and the artists are to be commended on a stunning beginning to the TBolts book. I am so looking forward to seeing Strucker ram his sword home into Bullseys back with the point just sticking into Mellisas flesh. I am so looking forward to Venom attempting to eat Mellisa and the Swordsman. And I am so looking forward to Moonstones plans come to fruition in this deadly new climate in the SHRA.

I hope we see more of Norman Osborn and the new President, again. I wonder where that meeting takes place and in which book?

[Hybrid2]

Summary: (hi-light to read)
Swordsman cremates his clone sister and vows to kill Osborn after his contract is over.
Norman Osborn blames C.S.A., SHIELD, SWORD, and the Initiative for SI, and he has resigned as Thunderbolt Director.
Moonstone has neutralized Penance and to my understanding unleashes venom.
Radioactive Man returns to China due to SI aftermath
Songbird ends up with Bullseye pointing a bladed throwing dart in a similar area above the spinal cord like what happened to Jack Flag.


And they lissen to a mass murderer with nanites,making him work for them,because?

[jackolover]

i wish Deodato had stuck around. it would really help the transition/keeping this book popular. the writing is still up to the par, thankfully.



Norman's pragmatic and a very good at dealing with politicians. i think SHIELD should have approached him about heading up SHRA, in the first place.

Deodato was my favorite. He can do lovely Mellisa ass.

That would have been a riot, with Norman head of shield. Looking back, it would have made a lot of sense, but at the time, Norman was just a common criminal, and Ellis hadn't expounded on Normans character as yet. But why not Osborn head of SHIELD now?

[jackolover]

Can't help but feel like that might be where Andy is going with this...hope I'm wrong though, the Thunderbolts work so much better as this kind of book.

.

I don't have any worries that Diggle will stay the Ellis course, especially because he nails Moonstones voice just like Ellis had her. She was a bitch, conniving, and very vindictive, and self absorbed. There was that one time Gage put egg on her face during the Skrull invasion, when she wanted South America, and that fell through. But this menacing one she took with Penance, to me, showed he is holding the course. I don't think Diggle will let that sense of Moonstone go any time soon.

I don't know how this will all end, but maybe some team mates are taken out of the book for use elsewhere, and maybe new members are introduced. Or maybe TBolts does fold, but all indications are that this book will continue with the same tone as has been created by Ellis. The formula has worked too well.

[jackolover]

And they lissen to a mass murderer with nanites,making him work for them,because?

Osborn has seeded enough distrust in the hero and security community to make Osborns alternative attractive, because he does make speeches on television, while zapping Skrulls. While Tony Stark sceddadles back to Stark Tower and doesn't explain himself to the media. Just makes you realise, the public is so fixated on what celebs say on air, rather than what the celebs actually stand for.

[VagrantStyle]

And they lissen to a mass murderer with nanites,making him work for them,because?

does Osborn have the nanochain too? i know he made a deal with Moonstone where she did not have to have one. if she didn't have them it doesn't seem like he would either.

and what was that Moonstone was saying about her intangibility powers having not returned when Penance knocked her around? where did they go and why? what powers does she have right now? just curious. she's starting to become one of my favorite characters.

[Doc Goblin]

Any concerns I had over the new creative team have been put to rest. I'm convinced Thunderbolts is going to stay one of my favorite books.

Man, you can tell Diggle really did his homework here and respects what's gone on before. Sometimes, new writers come on board and it's like that haven't read the issues leading up to their run. This transition is utterly seamless. Even though Diggle's reshuffling the roster and setting up a new status quo, all the changes are flowing organically from right where Ellis and Gage left off. I appreciate it. It's rare to see writers do it and then rarer to see it being done so well.

It's a shame to see Radioactive Man leave. I doubt he'll be back soon since he has such a rock solid reason to be leaving. I'm not too heartbroken over Robbie though. Don't get me wrong. I've enjoyed having Penance around. That's a testament to Ellis' writing ability. I still think Marvel went to far with the Penance idea, so I won't really miss him.

Moonstone was seriously hardcore in this issue. I love it. She really screwed Robbie over. It's good to see Diggle's got a strong handle on her.

So it seems like Norman plans on elevating the Thunderbolts from a team apprehending renegade superheroes to some kind of independent watchdog team. That makes sense. It gives the team a broader mandate so every story doesn't have to be related to them chasing down some unregistered superhero. They'll be able to ruin the day of whoever they want.

All the deceit in this issue even has me paranoid. Is it really as simple as the end of the issue implies? Is this about getting rid of Songbird, or getting rid of Bullseye and Venom? It's not like those two characters are likely mainstays for the title. They're bound to be returned to their respective stables sooner than later. The situation just seems weird to me. Why set Venom loose against someone with sound-based powers? In fact, why send him at all? Does Norman think Bullseye really needs the backup or is he just trying to create a messy situation? If he's bringing the Thunderbolts to a higher profile, he may not want those two around anymore. And if they actually do manage to take out Songbird in the process of running wild, that's just a bonus to Norman.

I really doubt this is about the Dark Avengers. This is Diggle's thing, not Bendis'.

[spacesheep]

does Osborn have the nanochain too? i know he made a deal with Moonstone where she did not have to have one. if she didn't have them it doesn't seem like he would either.

and what was that Moonstone was saying about her intangibility powers having not returned when Penance knocked her around? where did they go and why? what powers does she have right now? just curious. she's starting to become one of my favorite characters.

no osborn does not have the nanites

[spacesheep]

Hey guys with SI and spider-woman. Do you guys think it is highly likely that Jessica Drew may join this team too? I mean do you think Diggle will put her in the team due to a redemption factor? After all Skrull Queen has been posing as her while screwing people over. (if i am off please correct me, i haven't been keeping track of SI) Also, i do remember another t-bolts thread mentioning Diggle adding a spider and insect to the team.

[Jack Ketch]

I agree with those who think Osborn's setting up Bullseye, Venom & Moonstone just as much as he's setting up Songbird and Robbie, if not more. Chen's diplomatic status kind of rended him untouchable.

He's always denied Bullseyes existance on the team, Venom's become an ever increasing viability and Moonstone's been plotting behind his back from the start.

Odd that they don't seem to be mentioning Swordsman in their plans when Venom's released.

[celticguy]

Is there any chance the swordsman did not over hear bullseye, admit to killing his sister?

I think he will save the day for songbird.

[StoneGold]

Frankly, I'm glad this team of posers is getting disbanded. What Songbird needs to do is turn the tables on Bullseye, shove his own blades through his eyes, then rescue Robbie and take him to Zemo, so the three of them can rebuild the Thunderbolts as God intended: a team of well-intentionned outlaws trying to do good.


I'll let you figure out which is the totally batcrap crazy part of that sentence. Hint: it involves the Nazi currently palling around with his serial murderer cousin.

[rogerio]

Andy Diggle's words:
"So THUNDERBOLTS # 126 moves all the pieces into position, 127 checkmates them, and 128 throws the chess board out of the window and sets fire to the building."I

I think we are going to see new members.
Fingers crossed to see Black Widow, Silver Sable, Paladin and Darkhawk.
do you guys have any guesses?

[Bingo!]

What an exciting issue!

I really only wanted to read this issue to see how the Thunderbolts handle the fallout from Secret Invasion. Little did I know Norman decided all their fates already. Sneaky man. Watching him resign and walk away from the TB made me realize he's really stepping into a much larger role in the Marvel U.

[Cthulhudrew]

I'm abit surprised the Radioactive Man/Songbird scene flew over James Hunt's (CBR reviewer) head though. I thought it was pretty obvious that the camaraderie between the two could be heading in that direction at any moment looking back through the various Ellis issues and Gage's first one shot.

I'm not sure why anyone's surprised by the Chen/Melissa stuff, unless they didn't read Fabian Nicieza's second TBolts run, where Chen explicitly confessed to having feelings for her.

[CyberHubbs]

Andy Diggle's words:
"So THUNDERBOLTS # 126 moves all the pieces into position, 127 checkmates them, and 128 throws the chess board out of the window and sets fire to the building."I

That is an awesome quote that makes me giggle uncontrollably.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Best issue I bought this week. Bravo.

[StoneGold]

I'm not sure why anyone's surprised by the Chen/Melissa stuff, unless they didn't read Fabian Nicieza's second TBolts run, where Chen explicitly confessed to having feelings for her.

Yeah, wasn't too surprised. I'd be more surprised if it was reciprocated, but more because RM is barely human looking. Or acting, for that matter. At the end of the day, who is going to risk banging the nuclear reactor in the miniskirt?

[jackolover]

I'm not too heartbroken over Robbie though. Don't get me wrong. I've enjoyed having Penance around. That's a testament to Ellis' writing ability. I still think Marvel went to far with the Penance idea, so I won't really miss him.

I wonder when Samson and Nova go to visit Robbie what they'll turn up? Someone has got to fin out what happened to Penance, so at some stage Robbie will be liberated and then maybe we will have Speedball back - the new improved Speedball with more fire power.




All the deceit in this issue even has me paranoid. Is it really as simple as the end of the issue implies? Is this about getting rid of Songbird, or getting rid of Bullseye and Venom? It's not like those two characters are likely mainstays for the title. They're bound to be returned to their respective stables sooner than later. The situation just seems weird to me. Why set Venom loose against someone with sound-based powers? In fact, why send him at all? Does Norman think Bullseye really needs the backup or is he just trying to create a messy situation? If he's bringing the Thunderbolts to a higher profile, he may not want those two around anymore. And if they actually do manage to take out Songbird in the process of running wild, that's just a bonus to Norman.

I really doubt this is about the Dark Avengers. This is Diggle's thing, not Bendis'.

I don't know what's going on there with Osborn. It just seems so confusing, and until Andy elaborates on this, we are just in the dark about this.

[CyberHubbs]

Yeah, wasn't too surprised. I'd be more surprised if it was reciprocated, but more because RM is barely human looking. Or acting, for that matter. At the end of the day, who is going to risk banging the nuclear reactor in the miniskirt?

I thought it was reciprocated, at that moment, but Songbird knew Bullseye was in the hangar and knew he'd kill Chen (or thought so, anyway). So she got him the hell out of Dodge by acting frigid.

[Doc Goblin]

I wonder when Samson and Nova go to visit Robbie what they'll turn up? Someone has got to fin out what happened to Penance, so at some stage Robbie will be liberated and then maybe we will have Speedball back - the new improved Speedball with more fire power.

At the very least, it puts Robbie in an easy position for writers to revisit him later and make any change they want to the character. Whether that means he'll be Penance still, Speedball again or something in between. My preference would be something in between.

It would be cool to see Diggle revisit this, if only to see Samson come back. His role in Ellis' second T-bolts arc was the first time I ever found that guy interesting and now I want to see more of him.

Didn't Diggle give hints about some characters on the new lineup? This sounds familiar, but I can't remember any of the hints or where I read them.

[jackolover]

It would be cool to see Diggle revisit this, if only to see Samson come back. His role in Ellis' second T-bolts arc was the first time I ever found that guy interesting and now I want to see more of him.

.

yes, I have to admit, Ellis' Samson was the best I've seen him. Even though I despised Samson after CW and WWH, his character in TBolts was a cut above the rest.

[Venom Melendez]

Ugh.

Keep Zemo (and TB nostalgia in general) away from this team, Diggle.



I disagree.


The Thunderbolts are Zemo's team and it's about time he took it back.

[Ryan W]

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing Songbird join the side of good for real and help out the real Avengers/heroes during this upcoming "Dark Reign" business. She hasn't been happy with Norman and Karla from the start, and I'd love to see her step up and take a stand against them.

Besides, we all know the Moonstone/Songbird fights are the BEST when we get to see them . . . And written by Diggle they could have tremendous badassery.

[Venom Melendez]

Andy Diggle's words:
"So THUNDERBOLTS # 126 moves all the pieces into position, 127 checkmates them, and 128 throws the chess board out of the window and sets fire to the building."I

I think we are going to see new members.
Fingers crossed to see Black Widow, Silver Sable, Paladin and Darkhawk.
do you guys have any guesses?




Why would Black widow,Silver Sable,atc. Join a Super villain team? Because weather it's Villains pretending to be heroes or Villains looking to reform the book has always been about villains.

[Flight]

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease don't kill Songbird!

[seeso]

I am guessing that Songbird escapes somehow. I hope she does anyway.

My guess for the new direction that the book will take? Maybe after Songbird escapes, she tracks down her former T-Bolts leader, Clint Barton, for help. Together they try to get their hands on that tape of Osborn going nuts as the Goblin.

Maybe they pick up one or two other old T-Bolts along the way. I wouldn't mind seeing Beetle again. What's he been up to? Goliath?

[jackolover]

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing Songbird join the side of good for real and help out the real Avengers/heroes during this upcoming "Dark Reign" business. She hasn't been happy with Norman and Karla from the start, and I'd love to see her step up and take a stand against them.

Besides, we all know the Moonstone/Songbird fights are the BEST when we get to see them . . . And written by Diggle they could have tremendous badassery.

On the question of killing Mellisa, I don't really have a problem with that. Her powers are nebulous, and she is used mostly as a prop in the action. What I would miss is how her shape fits a uniform. I love her skank skin tight outfit, and watching Bullseye send her into tears, is just gold.

Mind you, the best part about Mellisa is her friction and masked hostility towards Karla, and that would be great if they had to work together in the future, because it's just so bitchy how they interact together. I like watching those two shouting at each other, and tearing down each other. Karla is the consummate villain trying hard to fit in, and Mellisa is the seething deposed leader, barely capable of controlling her rage.

[americocaine]

I wouldn't mind Zemo returning. I thought the stuff with Osborn was beginning to get ridiculous with all the over exposure. It looks the T-Bolts will stay a government sponsored though. I don't see how they can dissolve it again. Making it even less likely for Zemo to return.

[Monty_Cristo]

Why would Black widow,Silver Sable,atc. Join a Super villain team? Because weather it's Villains pretending to be heroes or Villains looking to reform the book has always been about villains.

the next take on it is supposed to be a black ops team working for Osborn; off-the-record. i could imagine the Belova-Black Widow doing that but not the others.

[Venom Melendez]

I wouldn't mind Zemo returning. I thought the stuff with Osborn was beginning to get ridiculous with all the over exposure. It looks the T-Bolts will stay a government sponsored though. I don't see how they can dissolve it again. Making it even less likely for Zemo to return.

They started working for the government when Zemo was still on the team.It's about time we see what he's been up to since the born better mini anyway.

[Monty_Cristo]

They started working for the government when Zemo was still on the team.It's about time we see what he's been up to since the born better mini anyway.

they worked with the government; not for it.

[Venom Melendez]

they worked with the government; not for it.
Same difference.

[CMBMOOL]

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing Songbird join the side of good for real and help out the real Avengers/heroes during this upcoming "Dark Reign" business. She hasn't been happy with Norman and Karla from the start, and I'd love to see her step up and take a stand against them.

Besides, we all know the Moonstone/Songbird fights are the BEST when we get to see them . . . And written by Diggle they could have tremendous badassery.
Agreed I have always pictured Songbird as a redeeming villain trying out to be a heroine. :biggrin:

[spacesheep]

On the question of killing Mellisa, I don't really have a problem with that. Her powers are nebulous, and she is used mostly as a prop in the action. What I would miss is how her shape fits a uniform. I love her skank skin tight outfit, and watching Bullseye send her into tears, is just gold..

Lol is just GOLD. Pun intended? :smile:

For those who don't get it high light this:
Gold is Songbird's lastname

[Jadeskies]

I like moonstone best when she's messing with someones mind, I'm not as keen on her when she acts like a hormone crazed sex addict.

[spacesheep]

IMO I would love to see Melissa in charge. After all she has shown how capable she is leading a team, and I just see it happening with her if Diggle plans on recreating the team back to the redemption factor (that is if she does not have anymore psychos in the team).

Can someone give me more substance as to what makes Zemo an interesting character? *sorry i never thought much of him since i read the New Thunderbolts and now.

[spacesheep]

I like moonstone best when she's messing with someones mind, I'm not as keen on her when she acts like a hormone crazed sex addict.

Laughs. Come on you gotta admit it was hilarious reading Ellis' script on moonstone.

I mean she purposely did not get her hands dirty with Jack Flag, so she wouldn't be all bruised up before "meaningless sex"
Even better was when they said she was an adult sex icon.

[Monty_Cristo]

I like moonstone best when she's messing with someones mind, I'm not as keen on her when she acts like a hormone crazed sex addict.

that's just it though. Karla still wasn't "hormone crazed." she was just as controlled and calculated as ever. she was using sex to gain the loyalty of t-bolts mountain staff. that's how she was tampering with Norman's meds. plus, like she said, it was "meaningless."

[StoneGold]

I wouldn't mind Zemo either, but preferably as an evil bastard.

[Monty_Cristo]

I wouldn't mind Zemo either, but preferably as an evil bastard.

i would have expected him to be in the Illuminaughty before Osborn (or the Hood, for that matter).

[jackolover]

Lol is just GOLD. Pun intended? :smile:

For those who don't get it high light this:
Gold is Songbird's lastname

It was a coincidence. Thanks for the pickup.

[jackolover]

i would have expected him to be in the Illuminaughty before Osborn (or the Hood, for that matter).

Good point. Do you think Zemos back yet, from wherever he went?

[sneggz]

Andy Diggle's words:
"So THUNDERBOLTS # 126 moves all the pieces into position, 127 checkmates them, and 128 throws the chess board out of the window and sets fire to the building."I

I think we are going to see new members.
Fingers crossed to see Black Widow, Silver Sable, Paladin and Darkhawk.
do you guys have any guesses?

Thats a badass diggle quote.

Darkhawk has a mini that ties into War of Kings, so i doubt hell be a tbolt.

[Monty_Cristo]

Good point. Do you think Zemos back yet, from wherever he went?

couldn't say. i didn't finish the Born Better mini. i would expect him to return at some point during Dark Reign.

[jackolover]

couldn't say. i didn't finish the Born Better mini. i would expect him to return at some point during Dark Reign.

Wiki suggests the 4 issue Born Better series ended with Zemo left to roam the world and apparantly he's is lurking somewhere right now, trying to make the world a better place.

[Monty_Cristo]

Wiki suggests the 4 issue Born Better series ended with Zemo left to roam the world and apparantly he's is lurking somewhere right now, trying to make the world a better place.

he's doing a crappy job of it!

[arachne_azure]

This is just a WAG (wildass guess) on my part, but I think Andy Diggle's take on Thunderbolts is going to be similar to The Losers, with Songbird taking the Thunderbolts name back, leading a rag tag team of new faces (Maybe Ant Man {Eric O Grady} Maybe Black Widow {Yelena Belova} or Scorpion {Carmilla Black}, Maybe Solo) familiar faces (Robbie Baldwin, Abe Jenkins, Swordsman, Fixer) with the help of Commission people (Maybe Ray Sikorski & the "Black Water" type outfit he runs) and looking to get some payback on Norman Osborn, and affiliates (SHIELD, Initiative) Again this is just speculation on my part (read wild ass guess, Take with a Heaping, Heaping grain of salt) do not take it seriously.

[gorthon616]

This is just a WAG (wildass guess) on my part, but I think Andy Diggle's take on Thunderbolts is going to be similar to The Losers, with Songbird taking the Thunderbolts name back, leading a rag tag team of new faces (Maybe Ant Man {Eric O Grady} Maybe Black Widow {Yelena Belova} or Scorpion {Carmilla Black}, Maybe Solo) familiar faces (Robbie Baldwin, Abe Jenkins, Swordsman, Fixer) with the help of Commission people (Maybe Ray Sikorski & the "Black Water" type outfit he runs) and looking to get some payback on Norman Osborn, and affiliates (SHIELD, Initiative) Again this is just speculation on my part (read wild ass guess, Take with a Heaping, Heaping grain of salt) do not take it seriously.

That seems similar to my own idea.
I don't think the new faces you suggest will see play here though. Yelena is a SHIELD flunky? RIght? Ant-Man doesn't seem to fit in that kind of tone. Is Scorpion a 616 character? For some reason I wasn't sure if she was a Marvel Adventures character or not.

I do want to see Abe back. I want to see Abe more than Zemo actually. Isn't he a tech guy for the initiative? Would be kinda interesting to pit him against Songbird, potentially more interesting than if he just joined the team.

[Joe Franklin]

Here are some quotes from a Newsarama Diggle and Roseman Thunderbolts interview.

NRAMA: The series has been revamped many a time since the Kurt Busiek and Mark Bagley days, although technically, they first appeared in Peter David and Mike Deodato Jr.'s Incredible Hulk #449. What're some of your favorite elements from each of the previous takes on the team?

AD: I think it's the strength of Kurt Busiek's original core concept that has always made Thunderbolts stand out. The "villains masquerading as heroes" twist in the first issue was such a great hook for what appeared to be, on the surface at least, just another super-team.

I love the way Warren Ellis has recently given that core concept a darkly satirical twist, turning a bunch of violent sociopaths into propaganda tools for the pro-Registration agenda. But after the Secret Invasion, the Thunderbolts will have to adapt to a whole new status quo. The public are losing faith in these institutions and organizations that were supposed to keep them safe, yet spectacularly failed to do so. And if there's one man who's perfectly positioned to seize advantage of that public mistrust, it's... Well, you'll just have to wait and see!

NRAMA: Are you guys introducing a totally new team or will it be a mixture of old and new members?

BR: As much as we love the current line-up, Andy has proposed some new members that had us all giggling with maniacal glee. Whether you’re a longtime True Believer or a new school fan, Andy has a little something for everyone.

AD: Our new run kicks off with the current team still intact, but things will take a sudden turn for the... homicidal, shall we say, and some new team members will be brought in to replace others. A certain individual has big plans for the Thunderbolts...

NRAMA: Can you name one (or more) of them at this juncture?

AD: I could. But then I'd have to kill you. And then Marvel would kill me.

I guess I can say the team will include an insect and an arachnid. But I've probably said too much...

BR: Can I say X marks the spot? I guess I just did.

[gorthon616]

Here are some quotes from a Newsarama Diggle and Roseman Thunderbolts interview.

NRAMA: The series has been revamped many a time since the Kurt Busiek and Mark Bagley days, although technically, they first appeared in Peter David and Mike Deodato Jr.'s Incredible Hulk #449. What're some of your favorite elements from each of the previous takes on the team?

AD: I think it's the strength of Kurt Busiek's original core concept that has always made Thunderbolts stand out. The "villains masquerading as heroes" twist in the first issue was such a great hook for what appeared to be, on the surface at least, just another super-team.

I love the way Warren Ellis has recently given that core concept a darkly satirical twist, turning a bunch of violent sociopaths into propaganda tools for the pro-Registration agenda. But after the Secret Invasion, the Thunderbolts will have to adapt to a whole new status quo. The public are losing faith in these institutions and organizations that were supposed to keep them safe, yet spectacularly failed to do so. And if there's one man who's perfectly positioned to seize advantage of that public mistrust, it's... Well, you'll just have to wait and see!

NRAMA: Are you guys introducing a totally new team or will it be a mixture of old and new members?

BR: As much as we love the current line-up, Andy has proposed some new members that had us all giggling with maniacal glee. Whether you’re a longtime True Believer or a new school fan, Andy has a little something for everyone.

AD: Our new run kicks off with the current team still intact, but things will take a sudden turn for the... homicidal, shall we say, and some new team members will be brought in to replace others. A certain individual has big plans for the Thunderbolts...

NRAMA: Can you name one (or more) of them at this juncture?

AD: I could. But then I'd have to kill you. And then Marvel would kill me.

I guess I can say the team will include an insect and an arachnid. But I've probably said too much...

BR: Can I say X marks the spot? I guess I just did.

I like it. For someone who enjoyed both takes, I think mixing the best of both worlds will be a good move.

And I'm calling the return of Kaine right now.

[CyberHubbs]

Steel Spider, of course.

[Joe Franklin]

Steel Spider, of course.

But who is the X?

Very interesting.

[Joe Franklin]

Another quote from the Diggle interview.

NRAMA: What kind of threats will the Thunderbolts be facing? What kind of missions will they be embarking on? Is a confrontation with Fury's Secret Warriors or even the Avengers (New and/or Mighty) on the cards?

AD: I think the readers are going to get a real kick when they find out what we have planned. Let's just say the Thunderbolts won't be doing any more posing for the TV cameras. Quite the opposite, in fact. From now on, they're literally taking no prisoners. If even Scott Summers is willing to rack up a bodycount these days, just imagine how far a bunch of former villains might be willing to push it...

[Cthulhudrew]

Wiki suggests the 4 issue Born Better series ended with Zemo left to roam the world and apparantly he's is lurking somewhere right now, trying to make the world a better place.

Born Better ended with Zemo back in the "present", yes. And more firmly committed than ever to making the world better, but with a bit less emphasis on his more Machiavellian methods.


I guess I can say the team will include an insect and an arachnid. But I've probably said too much..

Steel Spider sounds like a good guess. Insect- The Beetle could be back? (Though I prefer Abe as Mach-IV these days, honestly.)


BR: Can I say X marks the spot? I guess I just did.

X? Well, the Zemo family does use Adhesive X and Formula X. Doubt that's what he's referring to, though.

[rogerio]

Black Widow and Mystique...:smile:

[gorthon616]

X? Well, the Zemo family does use Adhesive X and Formula X. Doubt that's what he's referring to, though.

That actually sounds right. I mean, I doubt Adhesive X will come into play story-wise, but it's the sort of obscure reference/hint that an editor would make in a promotional interview. Plus, I don't recall any connections to the X-Men that would make sense.

[rogerio]

Black Widow and Mystique...:smile:
never mind...
Mystique is not a insect...:biggrin:

[Monty_Cristo]

never mind...
Mystique is not a insect...:biggrin:


yeah, it's pretty much either Yellowjacket, Beetle, or Ant-Man.

[americocaine]

One thing's for sure Bendis Bolts/Dark Avengers is going to be painful. If you thought the SI tie-ins we're bad enough, a monotone voice to a band of supervillain nutjobs is not gonna make things any easier. Ellis could at least made them tolerable and he had added some interesting side characters like Sepulchre. Something I think Bendis couldn't conjure out of that ass of a brain even if he had a barrel of coffee.

[John Lynch]

I'm glad to see the new writer hasn't ruined the title (yet).

It actually looks like this is setting things up for Dark Avengers and that Thunderbolts will return to its pre-Ellis roots. I'm extremely happy for that as while I enjoyed Ellis's run, I also loved the pre-Ellis run.

If I'm wrong and this goes the other way (make it completely villains, no heroes) I'll drop it. But its a promising first issue.

[midnightman2001]

Just read this issue. W@W! This is a great start. It can go in any direction. This is what a book should do, kepe the reader guessing.

Great story so far. I am really jazzed for this book.

[Jack Ketch]

yeah, it's pretty much either Yellowjacket, Beetle, or Ant-Man.

Or THE WILDEST SUPER-HERO EVER -- BECAUSE HE'S REAL!

THE HUMAN FLY!

(or Wasp, Swarm, Grasshopper, Gypsy Moth, Humbug, Maggott...)

[Doc Goblin]

I'd bet on the "insect" being Ant-Man. I swear I remember a Cup o' Joe recently where he got asked about the futures of four characters: Ant-Man, 3-D Man, Gravity and someone else. Joe said we'd see one of them turning up in Thunderbolts.

The arachnid is a tough one. The obvious idea is that Venom sticks around, but why be ambiguous about that staying the same? It could also mean Gargan loses the symbiote and becomes Scorpion again. Or an all new Scorpion. It could be kind of ironic if what's left of the Steel Spider gets outfitted and drafted as a new Scorpion.

[Jack Ketch]

I'd bet on the "insect" being Ant-Man. I swear I remember a Cup o' Joe recently where he got asked about the futures of four characters: Ant-Man, 3-D Man, Gravity and someone else. Joe said we'd see one of them turning up in Thunderbolts.

The arachnid is a tough one. The obvious idea is that Venom sticks around, but why be ambiguous about that staying the same? It could also mean Gargan loses the symbiote and becomes Scorpion again. Or an all new Scorpion. It could be kind of ironic if what's left of the Steel Spider gets outfitted and drafted as a new Scorpion.

The Carmilla Black Scorpion has struggled to find a home since her creation, and if speculation about Dark Avengers is correct, I think she could fit on a new, new, new Thunderbolts.

[Monty_Cristo]

The Carmilla Black Scorpion has struggled to find a home since her creation, and if speculation about Dark Avengers is correct, I think she could fit on a new, new, new Thunderbolts.

she, Mattie Franklin, or Steel Spider would be my guess. of course, i would expect Carmilla to show up in the Agents of Atlas series; given her connection to that wakandan SHIELD agent guy.

with SHIELD possibly disbanding, Ant-Man and Scorpion will be somewhat displaced. they were both trained to be SHIELD stealth agents.

[drwho]

Just read this and I have to say this was completely mind blowing.

[Joe Franklin]

I'd bet on the "insect" being Ant-Man. I swear I remember a Cup o' Joe recently where he got asked about the futures of four characters: Ant-Man, 3-D Man, Gravity and someone else. Joe said we'd see one of them turning up in Thunderbolts.


The other character Joe mentioned was the girl called Spinner from Avengers Initiative.

[Monty_Cristo]

The other character Joe mentioned was the girl called Spinner from Avengers Initiative.

Spinner? web-spinner? spider? hmmmm. j/k

[jackolover]

I wonder what's going to happen to Robbie Baldwin. He's stuck in a mental hospital all drugged up to the gills, and yet he has all this new power, and the hope that Nova had given him when they last met. Together with Samsons encouragement, I wonder if Robbie will factor into any anti-DarkReign forces breaking Robbie out, and having him help them overthrow Norman Osborn and the Dark Avengers?

As he is, Robbie is imbedded in some unknown facility that only Nick Fury and Ms Marvel may have information about. I am really anticipating Secret Warriors, for how Nick Fury sets up the counter to Dark Reign. I have high hopes for Bendis and Hickman to hit this one out of the park. As much as Dark Avengers is going to be the ground zero, where all the Cabal stuff gets planned out and implimented, SW was be the planning and implimentation of what checkmates anything the the Cabal can do, and I want to see that. Those little circles, with players in their little groups, all layed out. It would be like the map of the world from a logistics point of view. All the power sets defined and connected. Can't wait.

But I sure hope Robbie becomes a player after all this, and not just dropped in the waste bin for something else to surface. They could at least get the New Warriors back together again.