She Hulk Cancelled

[Maestro]

She-Hulk for Mighty Avengers!!

[SalazarSleaze2]

Y'know, at the end of the day, it was a mid-range character who was already just barely supporting a book, with a change of direction, art that tended to be less than awesome... the hottest writer working today could have been on the book and it would have struggled.


And Peter? You don't have to disappear, just dye your hair and tell everyone you're Dan Slott.

He would also have to gain at least 75 pounds...

[Don't pee in the (Dead)pool]

Sorry to read about She-Hulk's cancellation, Peter. I, for one, was warming to Shulkie's adventures but, alas, they're no more.:frown:
So, any chance of Deadpool guest-starring in X-Factor? I know I keep asking you this but unfortunately you never reply...:biggrin:

[zebop]

I'm a fan of Peter David and I had high hopes for his She-Hulk, but let's face the facts: she's a knock-off of a more interesting character and that will always make her an a second rater.

Secondly, it seems there never were three issues together with any sort of consistency in the art. It ran from serviceable to terrible. I lost interest in the whole bounty hunter riff and Jaz's backstory that dribbled out soooooo slowly.

I'm not surprised in a tough economy that a second-tier comic like this took it on the chin. I only wished I were actually going to miss She-Hulk's latest, but far from greatest.

I gave She-Hulk a chance, but it just didn't rock my world.

:rolleyes:

[Flâneur]

I'm a fan of Peter David and I had high hopes for his She-Hulk, but let's face the facts: she's a knock-off of a more interesting character and that will always make her an a second rater.

Secondly, it seems there never were three issues together with any sort of consistency in the art. It ran from serviceable to terrible. I lost interest in the whole bounty hunter riff and Jaz's backstory that dribbled out soooooo slowly.

I'm not surprised in a tough economy that a second-tier comic like this took it on the chin. I only wished I were actually going to miss She-Hulk's latest, but far from greatest.

I gave She-Hulk a chance, but it just didn't rock my world.

:rolleyes:

I'd disagree there. Hulk is a character designed to give boys their testosterone fix. It's all smash, bash and stupidity which only strays into better stories when they drag him away from the core Hulk concept. She-Hulk has always had more viability as a character, if only because it's possible to write a wider range of stories with her. Hulk is most certainly not the more interesting character, just the better selling one which, considering the movies, toys and the 'hot' writers and artists, is not surprising.

[Peter David]

I
Secondly, it seems there never were three issues together with any sort of consistency in the art. It ran from serviceable to terrible. I lost interest in the whole bounty hunter riff and Jaz's backstory that dribbled out soooooo slowly.


:rolleyes:

As opposed to the lightning speed with which Wolverine's backstory was doled out over the decades...

PAD

[Peter David]

I'd disagree there. Hulk is a character designed to give boys their testosterone fix. It's all smash, bash and stupidity which only strays into better stories when they drag him away from the core Hulk concept. She-Hulk has always had more viability as a character, if only because it's possible to write a wider range of stories with her. Hulk is most certainly not the more interesting character, just the better selling one which, considering the movies, toys and the 'hot' writers and artists, is not surprising.

Well, that's the problem, isn't it. There is at least some consensus among the "boys" as to what they want to see in the Hulk: Smashing and bashing. As long as that's present, it doesn't matter whether he's green, gray or red, smart or stupid or somewhere in between. There will still be enough core fans to support the book because of what they can agree on, and the numbers up or down will still stay within a satisfactory margin.

Among She-Hulk fans there is zero consensus as to what they want. Comedy or tragedy, serious or humorous. Should she be solving problems with her wits or her legal experience or her fists? Should she be savage, sensational, sleeping around or virginal? No one can seem to agree. (Then again, women will say that men act that way in general about women, sometimes wanting their significant others to be maternal and nurturing and other times wanting them to be slutty, and it's ten and five and pick 'em as to which it'll be at any given time.)

And the fandom is so fractured that, although there are some hardcore who will support any incarnation, too many will sit on the sidelines if they don't get "their" version and thus the book gets canceled for...what? The fourth time now? (Although the way some folks around the blogsphere have been reacting, you'd think I was the sole reason for the previous three times as well.)

PAD

[Flâneur]

Well, that's the problem, isn't it. There is at least some consensus among the "boys" as to what they want to see in the Hulk: Smashing and bashing. As long as that's present, it doesn't matter whether he's green, gray or red, smart or stupid or somewhere in between. There will still be enough core fans to support the book because of what they can agree on, and the numbers up or down will still stay within a satisfactory margin.

Among She-Hulk fans there is zero consensus as to what they want. Comedy or tragedy, serious or humorous. Should she be solving problems with her wits or her legal experience or her fists? Should she be savage, sensational, sleeping around or virginal? No one can seem to agree. (Then again, women will say that men act that way in general about women, sometimes wanting their significant others to be maternal and nurturing and other times wanting them to be slutty, and it's ten and five and pick 'em as to which it'll be at any given time.)

And the fandom is so fractured that, although there are some hardcore who will support any incarnation, too many will sit on the sidelines if they don't get "their" version and thus the book gets canceled for...what? The fourth time now? (Although the way some folks around the blogsphere have been reacting, you'd think I was the sole reason for the previous three times as well.)

PAD

I think that's almost a symptom of an entirely different problem, with a predominately male audience there's always going to be a fractured idea of what you want from the other. Most male characters get rewound to an iconic status quo [the Hulk always begins smashing again, no matter what for example] but the female ones just keep bouncing back and forth without really bursting into A-list status. It's not misogynistic ... it's just that on the occasions that you get writers who know what to do with female characters you get readers who don't. Especially when every creator is dipping into the honey pot of that character.

[Mark_S]

The change in status quo was, I felt, necessitated by the fact that she was betrayed by just about everyone she had ever trusted. I felt that having her operate as if nothing had happened would make no sense and not ring true. I was obviously wrong, considering that her fighting side by side with Tony Stark in "Hulk" when she should have, by all rights, wanted nothing to do with him, seemed to bother very few readers. Or at least not enough to damage sales on that title.

In terms of accomplishing the status change, the time jump seemed the most dramatic way to do it. I credited She-Hulk fans to have the same patience as fans of "Lost" or "Desperate Housewives." Since you aren't alone in jumping ship because of that decision on my part, obviously I was wrong again. That's not said with hostility. That's just fact.

Should I not have given the fans that much credit? You tell me.

PAD

I was part of the crowd that shouted when Jen showed no interest in going after Tony, in fact I was sure that Tony was the one behind her dissbaring. And I have to admit I skipped an issue or two out of that anger. It seemed (PAD statement that it wasn't editorial fiat-which took me a bit of time to believe though I believe it now) that Teflon Tony was once again skipping away from things. I came to realize that I was in a minority, that most fans don't seem to mind how marvel lets Tony treat the female characters around him. Actually when you look at the mu right now it's gotten to be a pretty mysognistic place. That's the way many of the writers seem to view women; that's the way its going to be for a while. Nothing I can do but stop reading the comics.

But I did grow to like the new storylines and it was nice that one of them generated a discussion on how Jen was re-learning heroism and what constituted a hero in the mu. And as this was one of the few titles of marvel that I still picked up I'm going to miss it.

Mark_S

[DeadXMan]

the defination of "Schadenfreude"

and for PAD in Star terk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuY8HIpK_Uo

[Sandy Hausler]

As opposed to the lightning speed with which Wolverine's backstory was doled out over the decades...

PAD

You're comparing Jaz to Wolverine?

Wolverine didn't need an explanation. As far as anyone knew, he was a mutant who worked for the Canadian government and left to join the X-Men. Being a mutant means you don't need an origin. This backstory was doled out over years because later writers, starting, I guess, with Claremont, decided there was more to him than met the eye. But we knew why he was with the X-Men and how he got there. We just didn't know everything that happened before.

Jaz, on the other hand, was a Skrull, who we found working as a bounty hunter with She-Hulk. That requires an explanation, not one that should be doled out little by little over a long period of time. You gave us one piece (after, in my opinion, too long a period of time), but we still don't know why she's with She-Hulk.

I think there's a big difference.

Sandy Hausler

[DeadXMan]

You're comparing Jaz to Wolverine?

Wolverine didn't need an explanation. As far as anyone knew, he was a mutant who worked for the Canadian government and left to join the X-Men. Being a mutant means you don't need an origin. This backstory was doled out over years because later writers, starting, I guess, with Claremont, decided there was more to him than met the eye. But we knew why he was with the X-Men and how he got there. We just didn't know everything that happened before.

Jaz, on the other hand, was a Skrull, who we found working as a bounty hunter with She-Hulk. That requires an explanation, not one that should be doled out little by little over a long period of time. You gave us one piece (after, in my opinion, too long a period of time), but we still don't know why she's with She-Hulk.

I think there's a big difference.

Sandy Hausler


did boba fett need a back story?
or Clint's man with no name?
or Shepard Book?

if you get everything in one page it cheapen the rest of the book

[Sandy Hausler]

did boba fett need a back story?
or Clint's man with no name?
or Shepard Book?

if you get everything in one page it cheapen the rest of the book

As to Bobba Fett, no. As to the others, I'm afraid I have no idea who you're talking about.

But when a person comes out of thin air, and is now working with She-Hulk, I think it's reasonable to explain where the heck she came from. Obviously, others can differ.

Sandy Hausler

[DeadXMan]

she green and had multible chins
where do think she came from?

New jersey?

you have never seen the greatest western triliogy of all time?

[Sandy Hausler]

she green and had multible chins
where do think she came from?

New jersey?

you have never seen the greatest western triliogy of all time?

Well, if you tell me what the greatest western trilogy of all time is, I can tell you if I've read it. If you're talking about western in the sense of a cowboy story, I probably have not.

Sandy Hausler

[DeadXMan]

fist full of dollars
few dollars more
the good the bad the ugly

they are movies watch them now

[Sandy Hausler]

fist full of dollars
few dollars more
the good the bad the ugly

they are movies watch them now

Have not seen them, but I'll put them on my Netflix list.

Sandy Hausler

[passer-by]

Have not seen them, but I'll put them on my Netflix list.

Sandy HauslerThe best of the three IMO is "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly", so I suggest you watch it last. The two others are very good too, mind you. :smile:

[pariah-1972]

I was hoping Jazinda would be a lesbian or bi-sexual and had a crush on She-Hulk since the first time i read her and then she made that lesbian joke and i was just waiting for it to happen.

I guess there goes that pipe dream:frown:

[gorthon616]

did boba fett need a back story?
or Clint's man with no name?
or Shepard Book?

if you get everything in one page it cheapen the rest of the book

But part of those characters is that they are mysterious by nature. The fact that you don't know what their backstory is part of their story.

[heystacy]

They just solicited the last issue:



The few titles I buy from Marvel just got minuscule for me. It wouldn't surprise me if Jeph Loeb has requested to have Shulke become a full-time second banana on his Hulk/Rulk title.

That's too bad. I love the series. :frown:

[Sandy Hausler]

I was hoping Jazinda would be a lesbian or bi-sexual and had a crush on She-Hulk since the first time i read her and then she made that lesbian joke and i was just waiting for it to happen.

I guess there goes that pipe dream:frown:

If that had been the case, Peter would have revealed it chop chop.:biggrin:

Sandy Hausler

[Merrik]

Haven't checked in in a few days. Lots to reply to! :biggrin:



I'm a fan of Peter David and I had high hopes for his She-Hulk, but let's face the facts: she's a knock-off of a more interesting character and that will always make her an a second rater.


And it's comments like those, and the closed mind-set that always seem to stop her from no longer being a "second rater". People automatically see "SHE-Hulk" and think "rip-off... cheesy..." and instead of taking a deeper look at the character, and seeing she's by far the more interesting of the two characters with a much wider and more broad canvas to work on and from, they shut down and assume she's a knock-off. She-Hulk hasn't been a knock off of The Hulk for over two decades, but some refuse to even give the notion of that a chance.

The places She-Hulk could be taken if people would simply give the writers and the character a chance, are limitless, where as the Hulk will always have a certain limitation on where someone will take his character due to the simple notion of his character.

The character may have started off as a knock-off, a spin-off, but in the almost 30 years she's been around, she's progressed above and beyond that. It's the people that still view her as that, that hold the character back.


But part of those characters is that they are mysterious by nature. The fact that you don't know what their backstory is part of their story.

I think Jazinda actually is mysterious by nature. From her very first appearance where she got her necked snapped and was able to continue being alive, there was a mysterious nature to the character. The fact that we didn't know all of Jazinda's backstory was part of her story as well. That's part of why I was so drawn to her. Who is she? Why is she still alive? Why can she spit out bullets? How did she meet She-Hulk? To me, it was all very intriguing. I ain't comparing her to Boba Fett :biggrin: , just the way I took the character.

And finally..


Well, that's the problem, isn't it. There is at least some consensus among the "boys" as to what they want to see in the Hulk: Smashing and bashing. As long as that's present, it doesn't matter whether he's green, gray or red, smart or stupid or somewhere in between. There will still be enough core fans to support the book because of what they can agree on, and the numbers up or down will still stay within a satisfactory margin.

Among She-Hulk fans there is zero consensus as to what they want. Comedy or tragedy, serious or humorous. Should she be solving problems with her wits or her legal experience or her fists? Should she be savage, sensational, sleeping around or virginal? No one can seem to agree. (Then again, women will say that men act that way in general about women, sometimes wanting their significant others to be maternal and nurturing and other times wanting them to be slutty, and it's ten and five and pick 'em as to which it'll be at any given time.)

And the fandom is so fractured that, although there are some hardcore who will support any incarnation, too many will sit on the sidelines if they don't get "their" version and thus the book gets canceled for...what? The fourth time now? (Although the way some folks around the blogsphere have been reacting, you'd think I was the sole reason for the previous three times as well.)

PAD

I have to agree.

When the original Dan Slott series was announced, fans wrote it off right from the get-go simply because it was billed as something something... Ally McBeal... something something. I actually stopped posting at certain She-Hulk dedicated sites 'cause I couldn't handle it anymore without calling someone a douche bag. Instead of the fans simply being happy their favorite character is in the spotlight and being kept out of the limbo area of the MU, some chose to tear it down without even reading a single word of the first issue. Everyone of course is entitled to their opinion and to voice that opinion, but the degree to which some people take it to is slightly frightening. They'd rather have their favorite character in that dreaded limbo space, because what they're reading isn't their "definition" of "their" character rather than having a book that features their favorite character where, who knows, they might even come to enjoy a story or two.

Again, people are of course entitled to like what they like and not like what they don't like, it's just sad that some are SO closed off that they won't even give something new a chance.

[Peter David]

You're comparing Jaz to Wolverine?

Wolverine didn't need an explanation. As far as anyone knew, he was a mutant who worked for the Canadian government and left to join the X-Men. Being a mutant means you don't need an origin. This backstory was doled out over years because later writers, starting, I guess, with Claremont, decided there was more to him than met the eye. But we knew why he was with the X-Men and how he got there. We just didn't know everything that happened before.

Jaz, on the other hand, was a Skrull, who we found working as a bounty hunter with She-Hulk. That requires an explanation, not one that should be doled out little by little over a long period of time. You gave us one piece (after, in my opinion, too long a period of time), but we still don't know why she's with She-Hulk.

I think there's a big difference.

Sandy Hausler

First of all, you didn't even KNOW she was a Skrull until my second issue. By the very next issue, you knew that she was on the run from her own people and was considered a traitor to her race. What more than that was required?

I'm comparing her to Wolverine only in that he had a backstory that was doled out piecemeal over decades.

PAD

[paulski]

Of course it would. Just as if an unpopular or lousy artist were drawing Jeph's book, "Hulk's" numbers would be way down. People are far more inclined to allow a book to grow on them storywise if they love the art than they are if they hate, or are indifferent to, the art.

I agree completely. Ain't no way I'd be touching Hulk right now if the artwork wasn't so goddamn beautiful.

[ZeoVGM]

How about this: She-Hulk is awesome and cancelling is blatantly dumb.

[Syzygy]

Well, that's the problem, isn't it. There is at least some consensus among the "boys" as to what they want to see in the Hulk: Smashing and bashing. As long as that's present, it doesn't matter whether he's green, gray or red, smart or stupid or somewhere in between. There will still be enough core fans to support the book because of what they can agree on, and the numbers up or down will still stay within a satisfactory margin.

PAD

Loved your Hulk run specifically because it was more than just smashing and bashing.

Still hoping for a Professor Hulk/USS Excalibur crossover!:biggrin:

[pariah-1972]

How about this: She-Hulk is awesome and cancelling is blatantly dumb.HEar HEAr !!

[Don't pee in the (Dead)pool]

How about this: She-Hulk is awesome and cancelling is blatantly dumb.

I think that summarises the situation perfectly!:biggrin:

[Robo Ape]

I have always been rather bemused that people just consider her a knock off of the Hulk. To be honest she is often written in a more interesting way than the Hulk is and the fact certainly has more potential. I mean the Hulk is all about the Hulk smash, be it puny humans or buildings etc. As long as you have plenty of this you have basically got half the content of a typical Hulk title sorted.

[Mr. Cakes]

You're comparing Jaz to Wolverine?

Wolverine didn't need an explanation. As far as anyone knew, he was a mutant who worked for the Canadian government and left to join the X-Men. Being a mutant means you don't need an origin. This backstory was doled out over years because later writers, starting, I guess, with Claremont, decided there was more to him than met the eye. But we knew why he was with the X-Men and how he got there. We just didn't know everything that happened before.

Jaz, on the other hand, was a Skrull, who we found working as a bounty hunter with She-Hulk. That requires an explanation, not one that should be doled out little by little over a long period of time. You gave us one piece (after, in my opinion, too long a period of time), but we still don't know why she's with She-Hulk.

I think there's a big difference.

Sandy Hausler

Does it really require an explanation? Why does everything always have to be explained? Jazinda is She-Hulk's only friend and that's all that matters, or all anyone needs to know really.

[pariah-1972]

I have to say one of the things i really liked about Dan Slots run is the focus on the supporting cast.

:frown:

[b4ustandsi]

Does it really require an explanation? Why does everything always have to be explained? Jazinda is She-Hulk's only friend and that's all that matters, or all anyone needs to know really.
yes it matters. pad should at least have given some background on how they met. a blurb or something. pad's a good writer but not one of the best. its just the cult following of fans that bitch and whine when a series of pad's gets cancelled or when he gets booted off a book

[Nate Grey]

yes it matters. pad should at least have given some background on how they met.

Wasn't all that explained in the SECOND issue? Ever heard of the saying k.i.s.s.?

Weird people want some sort of 12 part anthology on this particular character.

[Peter David]

yes it matters. pad should at least have given some background on how they met.

You mean like when I said Jaz came to earth while fleeing the Skrulls and wound up saving Jen's life (although Jen claimed she remembered it differently.) And after that event, they decided to partner up? That blurb a few issues in?

PAD

[Nate Grey]

You mean like when I said Jaz came to earth while fleeing the Skrulls and wound up saving Jen's life (although Jen claimed she remembered it differently.) And after that event, they decided to partner up? That blurb a few issues in?

PAD

I think he means like what they were thinking before and after their meeting, how their meeting changed their views on life (IF it changed them), what color they painted each other's toenails, things like that. Damn you for not including those things, PAD!

[Peter David]

I think he means like what they were thinking before and after their meeting, how their meeting changed their views on life (IF it changed them), what color they painted each other's toenails, things like that. Damn you for not including those things, PAD!

To some degree, it's all nonsense. The bottom line is that nowadays people are looking for reasons, not to stick with a book, but to stop buying it. I don't blame them; with prices what they are and the economy what it is, give them the slightest excuse and they're gone, especially if you don't have a hot fan favorite artist drawing it. People can nitpick the story all they want, but if, for instance, Frank Cho were drawing this book, sales would be strong regardless of whether I spelled out how Jazinda came to meet Jen.

PAD

[Mr. Cakes]

To some degree, it's all nonsense. The bottom line is that nowadays people are looking for reasons, not to stick with a book, but to stop buying it. I don't blame them; with prices what they are and the economy what it is, give them the slightest excuse and they're gone, especially if you don't have a hot fan favorite artist drawing it. People can nitpick the story all they want, but if, for instance, Frank Cho were drawing this book, sales would be strong regardless of whether I spelled out how Jazinda came to meet Jen.

PAD

I think Cucca fits the style really well (maybe not in the earlier She-Hulk issues of your run, but now definitely!). He's definitely earned a place in my heart and I hope he does more work for Marvel. :smile:

[Nate Grey]

To some degree, it's all nonsense. The bottom line is that nowadays people are looking for reasons, not to stick with a book, but to stop buying it. I don't blame them; with prices what they are and the economy what it is, give them the slightest excuse and they're gone, especially if you don't have a hot fan favorite artist drawing it. People can nitpick the story all they want, but if, for instance, Frank Cho were drawing this book, sales would be strong regardless of whether I spelled out how Jazinda came to meet Jen.

PAD

True, but it still begs the question of why not be honest about it? Or do you think its a matter of transferrence in a way (mad at their financial situation = taking it out on a book they can't afford to keep buying)?

Makes me wonder, but not that much. I myself have stopped buying comics altogether cause of my money woes. And it sucks cause I see GOBS of stuff I'd love to get but can't. :frown:

[Don't pee in the (Dead)pool]

To some degree, it's all nonsense. The bottom line is that nowadays people are looking for reasons, not to stick with a book, but to stop buying it. I don't blame them; with prices what they are and the economy what it is, give them the slightest excuse and they're gone, especially if you don't have a hot fan favorite artist drawing it. People can nitpick the story all they want, but if, for instance, Frank Cho were drawing this book, sales would be strong regardless of whether I spelled out how Jazinda came to meet Jen.

PAD

I personally hate dropping books but then again I only really purchase books I like in the first place. Over the past couple of years I've dropped most of the X-books due to them feeling directionless in my opinion but I stick with X-Factor because I find it a consistently written title. Others complain and whine about Larry Stroman's art or some other artist they hate but for me the art is secondary--- it's the story that counts.

Slightly off-topic here, Peter, but with Roger Stern returning to write ASM I was wondering whether you yourself had been invited to write any Spider-Man material, or do you have anything new in the pipeline now She-Hulk's being cancelled?

[twilightrun]

it's funny. image comics started as a bunch of artists that thought that the art was the most important part of comics. now a majority of the comics i read each month are image (and dark horse) because i think that they are some of the best written; but i still buy several marvel and dc titles. if you are right, mrdavid, that people buy comics for the art only, that saddens me. for me the writing is the most important part of the comic. i do drop comics fairly quickly, maybe 2 months of bad writing, but will pick it back up more quickly if things change. should i not be acting so fast? i respect your opinion.

[Sandy Hausler]

First of all, you didn't even KNOW she was a Skrull until my second issue. By the very next issue, you knew that she was on the run from her own people and was considered a traitor to her race. What more than that was required?

I'm comparing her to Wolverine only in that he had a backstory that was doled out piecemeal over decades.

PAD

Peter, I believe I said that you did provide some of her back story. It's not that I wanted to know why she's on Earth. You certainly did explain that. What we don't know is how and why she hooked up with She-Hulk. It may have been something you could string along if that issue was some kind of mystery, but I've never been under the impression that that was the case.

I thought that the reason for her teaming with She-Hulk is something that should be revealed to the readers unless there's a reason not to.

Sandy Hausler

[Nate Grey]

Peter, I believe I said that you did provide some of her back story. It's not that I wanted to know why she's on Earth. You certainly did explain that. What we don't know is how and why she hooked up with She-Hulk. It may have been something you could string along if that issue was some kind of mystery, but I've never been under the impression that that was the case.

I thought that the reason for her teaming with She-Hulk is something that should be revealed to the readers unless there's a reason not to.

Sandy Hausler


You mean like when I said Jaz came to earth while fleeing the Skrulls and wound up saving Jen's life (although Jen claimed she remembered it differently.) And after that event, they decided to partner up? That blurb a few issues in?

PAD

Isn't that the answer to your question? Or is there more to it that you want? :confused:

[Sandy Hausler]

Does it really require an explanation? Why does everything always have to be explained? Jazinda is She-Hulk's only friend and that's all that matters, or all anyone needs to know really.

Sorry, but when a character appears in the middle of a series, you should explain how she got there. We know why she was hiding on Earth, but we still don't know why she's hainging with She-Hulk. If this were the beginning of the series, and, as far as we know, Jaz had always been Jen's friend and partner, that's one thing. But that is not the case here.

Sandy Hausler

[Sandy Hausler]

You mean like when I said Jaz came to earth while fleeing the Skrulls and wound up saving Jen's life (although Jen claimed she remembered it differently.) And after that event, they decided to partner up? That blurb a few issues in?

PAD

Not that you're responding to me in this post, but I don't even recall that. Apologies. Alzeimers must be setting in.

Sandy Hausler

[Mark_S]

Sorry, but when a character appears in the middle of a series, you should explain how she got there. We know why she was hiding on Earth, but we still don't know why she's hainging with She-Hulk. If this were the beginning of the series, and, as far as we know, Jaz had always been Jen's friend and partner, that's one thing. But that is not the case here.

Sandy Hausler

It would have been nice to have more than the blurb, but I was willing to wait. Patience helps with long story arcs and elements and while it is sometimes nearly impossible for me (SI:Savage Land... they'll never leave!) I was willing to wait on this one. I think PAD just ran out of time before he could delve into it.

Mark_S

[Nate Grey]

It would have been nice to have more than the blurb, but I was willing to wait. Patience helps with long story arcs and elements and while it is sometimes nearly impossible for me (SI:Savage Land... they'll never leave!) I was willing to wait on this one. I think PAD just ran out of time before he could delve into it.

Mark_S

Are you saying a "blurb" wasn't enough? Cause the question was asked and answered early in. PAD seems to feel that was enough, but either people don't agree or...missed it somehow?

[Mark_S]

I think he means like what they were thinking before and after their meeting, how their meeting changed their views on life (IF it changed them), what color they painted each other's toenails, things like that. Damn you for not including those things, PAD!

I think if there had been a few issue of Jen and Jaz lounging in the trailer in Victoria's secret selections painting each others toenails and if it were drawn by Frank Cho there would have been a drastic increase in sales :)

Mark_S

[Nate Grey]

I think if there had been a few issue of Jen and Jaz lounging in the trailer in Victoria's secret selections painting each others toenails and if it were drawn by Frank Cho there would have been a drastic increase in sales :)

Mark_S

lol I kinda wish they had Cho for the first dozen issues at least, but oh well. He seems suited for this, but the man probably has tons on his plate already, I don't know.

I guess "blurbs" are easy to miss. Maybe if PAD had them saying in every other word bubble something like "...just like when you saved me when I landed (or I saved you, depending on who's speaking) leading to us working together!" there wouldn't be this confusion.

LOL Who am I kidding, there'd STILL be this confusion. :smile:

[Peter David]

True, but it still begs the question of why not be honest about it? Or do you think its a matter of transferrence in a way (mad at their financial situation = taking it out on a book they can't afford to keep buying)?
:

I don't think it's a matter of dishonesty. I think that although people understand intellectually that the art impacts on their enjoyment of the comic, I don't believe they realize just how influential it is in their perceptions. I cannot tell you the number of times where I'll have an issue come out by a substandard artist followed by an issue with a superb artist. And invariably fans will say, "Peter David was off his game last month but now he's back with a great story." It never occurs to them that the story the previous month might have been just as good as, if not better than, the new issue.

Let me put it to you this way: I have been writing comics for a quarter century, and in all that time, I have never--ever--seen someone write something along the following lines:

"I absolutely love the art, but PAD's story doesn't do much for me, so I'm dropping the title."

Now I don't pretend to read every posting on the internet, God knows. And it wouldn't surprise me if abruptly people here suddenly start saying, "Wait, wait, I loved the art on (fill in the blank) but I stopped buying it anyway because of the story!" Yeah, well, too late, latecomers. And let's put it this way: If there are indeed some contrarians who will not hesitate to bail on art they adore because they're lukewarm on the story, they cannot compare in sheer numbers to those who will abandon a book with artwork they dislike no matter how much they may like the story. Why? Because just as good pitching usually defeats good hitting, bad art generally defeats a good story.

PAD

[Peter David]

it's funny. image comics started as a bunch of artists that thought that the art was the most important part of comics. now a majority of the comics i read each month are image (and dark horse) because i think that they are some of the best written; but i still buy several marvel and dc titles. if you are right, mrdavid, that people buy comics for the art only, that saddens me. for me the writing is the most important part of the comic. i do drop comics fairly quickly, maybe 2 months of bad writing, but will pick it back up more quickly if things change. should i not be acting so fast? i respect your opinion.

It wasn't that the Image guys thought art was the most important part of comics. It was that they thought art was the ONLY important part of comics.

Nor did I say that people buy comics for the art only. I said that they buy comics primarily if they like the art. That is to say, the art is the first determining aspect of whether they will buy it or not. If they pick it up, page through it and hate the art, they won't even bother with the story. If they happen to buy it, get it home, read it and hate the art but love the story, then it becomes a monthly test of just how dedicated they are to the book. Or, for that matter, how much the writer's vision has managed to punch through the lousy art and be seen.

I'm not going to tell you what to do in terms of how long you stick with a book before you drop it. That's your decision. I'm just commenting on buying habits that I've observed.

PAD

[Peter David]

It would have been nice to have more than the blurb, but I was willing to wait. Patience helps with long story arcs and elements and while it is sometimes nearly impossible for me (SI:Savage Land... they'll never leave!) I was willing to wait on this one. I think PAD just ran out of time before he could delve into it.

Mark_S

Actually I wanted to do it in this year's annual. But the editor suggested we save it for next year and so I went in a different direction. So, y'know, THAT worked out...

PAD

[passer-by]

Nor did I say that people buy comics for the art only. I said that they buy comics primarily if they like the art. That is to say, the art is the first determining aspect of whether they will buy it or not.I can only agree to a certain extent. I'm sure you know much more than me what are the buying habits of some or most comics fans, but there are also people like me who put the story above the art.

Actually I've said in a few forums, including here, that I'll read your X-Factor as long as you write it no matter who the artist is. Even if it starts being drawn by... well, I don't want to start a polemic here and that's not so important.

And I always got reactions from people who were thinking exactly the same (well, maybe not about the specific artists :biggrin: ).

So yes, some fans will buy a comic book based on who the artist is. Maybe even most fans, judging by the sales of various titles.:rolleyes: There are though other fans who give priority to who the writer is in their buying choices.

Suffice to say that up until recently I wasn't specially interested in Hulk. But when I saw the way you write him (in Hulk The End, Future Imperfect and House of M Hulk - that's all I've read so far), I realised that some great stories can be (and are) written about him.

As I said in the other thread, the next thing I'll buy will be the five TPBs of your Hulk Visionaries - and by the way, I hope that the release of the remaining volumes will be sped up.

I can't say I'm a Hulk fan or an X-Factor fan. The correct statement is that I'm a PAD's Hulk fan and a PAD's X-Factor fan.

Thank you for the great stories you give us.

[The Shadow]

Following my own advice, we're restarting it after issue #33.

Are you going to do the 'Season' idea with different volumes too?

[akumasan]

Why are you guys talking about Hudlin and Black Panther in FREAKING SHE-HULK THREAD?

Geez people
dont get me started on this



And if comic publishers want to change the culture, and bring in female readers to a typically male market, this is the kind of book that should be given more of a chance, or that will never happen.
Exactly so lets hope that Brian Reed would get the ball rolling with MSM.



I'm starting to think now that Marvel screwed up by not directly tying it into World War Hulk. Coming directly out of WWH did wonders for Hercules, but not Shulkie. One of the differences there? Her title didn't directly tie into the event. I say it would've been better if PAD's run started earlier with a WWH tie-in arc. Then sales would've been stronger at the start of his run. He would've had a bigger readership pool to swim in and been that much farther from the shallow end.
That was the thing that got to me. I was hoping that she would have a tie-in. I would have rather read She-Hulk than Gamma Corps.

The kids these days are all about hot artists, gimmicks, and over-hyped Hollywood writers. They'd rather have have mindless fights and nonsensical revelations rather than real character development and substance.wow another Loeb Hulk sighting.


she green and had multible chins
where do think she came from?

New jersey?

you have never seen the greatest western triliogy of all time?
LOL

But part of those characters is that they are mysterious by nature. The fact that you don't know what their backstory is part of their story.
That is why I dont like to additional "backstory" of wolverine. Now he even served prior to WW2. What's next he was a solider in the civil war?

[Mark_S]

Are you saying a "blurb" wasn't enough? Cause the question was asked and answered early in. PAD seems to feel that was enough, but either people don't agree or...missed it somehow?

No, it was enough for me for a start, but it was one of those things I figured that would be expanded upon later.

Mark_S

[cpahl2000]

Actually I wanted to do it in this year's annual. But the editor suggested we save it for next year and so I went in a different direction. So, y'know, THAT worked out...

PAD

Good to know that next years will we have more She-Hulk adventures, it´s a great comic and you are doing it greater. Thanks for the news.

[Bruce Wayne Jr.]

Good to know that next years will we have more She-Hulk adventures, it´s a great comic and you are doing it greater. Thanks for the news.

I think you misunderstood. PAD stated they were planning to tell certain stories next year, but they won't happen now that it's cancelled.

[Peter David]

I can only agree to a certain extent. I'm sure you know much more than me what are the buying habits of some or most comics fans, but there are also people like me who put the story above the art.

.

Believe me, I know there are fan such as you out there, and I appreciate the hell out of it. I swear, there have been books of mine where *I* can't read them, and the fact that anyone else can absolutely amazes me.

PAD

[Peter David]

Good to know that next years will we have more She-Hulk adventures, it´s a great comic and you are doing it greater. Thanks for the news.

Well, uh, no. That suggestion was before we knew it would be canceled.

PAD

[DeadXMan]

Believe me, I know there are fan such as you out there, and I appreciate the hell out of it. I swear, there have been books of mine where *I* can't read them, and the fact that anyone else can absolutely amazes me.

PAD

dose it involve Hulk using make-up to play baseball?

[bubbalee33]

Dang.

Guess that trims my pull list by 2 since I was done with new exiles. Although it looks like they are done anyway. I'll miss shulkie.

[James Conniff]

Sorry She Hulk fans, she has always been one of marvels best female characters. I know you may want to read about Jen....but for the love of god don't help that abomination of a Hulk book succeed.

Please, think of the children.

[Sandy Hausler]

It would have been nice to have more than the blurb, but I was willing to wait. Patience helps with long story arcs and elements and while it is sometimes nearly impossible for me (SI:Savage Land... they'll never leave!) I was willing to wait on this one. I think PAD just ran out of time before he could delve into it.

Mark_S

I even missed the "blurb." I don't think I missed an issue, but maybe I did.

And even without the minimal knowledge that Peter evidently provided, I was willing to wait. And it appears from what he's said above, Peter intended to fill in the blank in the Annual, but, of course, that never happened.

Sandy Hausler

[cpahl2000]

I think you misunderstood. PAD stated they were planning to tell certain stories next year, but they won't happen now that it's cancelled.


Eh, My mistake.:frown:

[cpahl2000]

Well, uh, no. That suggestion was before we knew it would be canceled.

PAD


My mistake.:frown: bad to heard that still, your X-factor is great and I´ll stay as long as the series continues.

[Drizzit007]

Well I am sad to see the title cancelled. I enjoy all of your titles, past and present. I think you mentioned in the past about not really having anything to contribute to the Hulk anymore but that would be great if you returned there with Jen in tow.

[Mikeymike]

I can't begin to say how disappointed I was to hear of this cancelation. She-Hulk is the Marvel book I most look forward to reading each month. It has been consistently amazing from Dan Slott through to Peter David.

I know some She-Hulk fans are trying to organize a compaign to save the series. I wish everyone could unite and help. A book this good does not deserve to be over already. Can't Marvel grant it one more year ? I mean, look how well the SI crossover issues did. I realize retailers cut their orders way back again and that probably led to this cancelation----but obviously She-Hulk has the potential to sell in higher numbers. Heck---if you add up all of She-Hulk's series together by this last issue you get 135 issues plus one graphic novel, a 2 issue mini-series and an annual. That's more issues than any other Marvel heroine. There's an audience out there and if retailers would take a little more of a chance I bet the book could gain more readers. But if Marvel doesn't reconsider we'll never have the chance.

No more She-Hulk will really be a shame.

[Merrik]

You know, reading the She-Hulk: Cosmic Collision One-Shot that came out today, it kind of pisses me off even more that She-Hulk was cancelled (which I didn't think was possible). The amount of character development that She-Hulk has received in her series under the careful watch of Dan Slott and Peter David is more than the character has pretty much received in her entire existence. When the character finally gets handled by someone(s) who are actually interested in progessing the character along instead of keeping her in the character development limbo she'd been in for quite a while before the past two series, Marvel goes ahead and friggin' cancels it.

I mean, She-Hulk, in Cosmic Collision, was basically the character that put everything together, was the one that came up with the idea on how to escape from their "prison", was bright enough to realize that when fighting in groups that large, problems are present (such as getting in each other's way), and was the one that used her brain and was able to stop Unum from basically going around the universe and killing every single female hero there is.

Compare that to most of her runs in the Avengers, where all she wanted to do was punch things, or pound on them all day hoping the outcome would be different with the 1000th punch than it was with the 1st punch, or that scene in Infinity War where SHE was the one who was accidentally punching her allies, or the Sensational She-Hulk where she was a one-trick pony the entire series... Hell, she's basically LEADING the Lady Liberators in the pages of Hulk and She-Hulk. Look back 10 years and try to imagine She-Hulk leading ANY team. She was simply the member who'd jump into the fray with her fists. And she's not always just leading them into slugfests like in the Hulk. She's leading them to parts of the world where they can do some good for humanity. The character has come a long way with the 50 (in total) issues of the two series, and now the book's getting canned.

I can only imagine the places PAD could've taken the character had he been given a year or two more on the book. I could see She-Hulk, under the direction of PAD in two years being capable of leading say, a group of The Avengers, or The Defenders. Now, that chance for the character has basically been taken away, and the more I think about it, the more it's really annoying the s**t out of me.


Okay... rant over.

[Merrik]

Oh, and the little blurb in Marvel Spotlight - Secret Invasion: Aftermath entitled "Spotlight on She-Hulk" pissed me off too. Why bother if you knew the series was going to be cancelled? NOW Marvel decides to do a little bit of promotion? What... the... hell? Brain surgeons I tell ya.



Okay... I need to take a breath and chill. :biggrin:

(Half-kidding)

[Mikeymike]

For anyone who has any interest in seeing She-Hulk continue----it would be great if everyone could reserve orders at their shops for the next 3 issues. I think the biggest problem here has been that retailers didn't raise their orders after the SI crossover issues (which did very well). I mean---all those extra people who might've bought those issues----some of them had to be swayed by the great story and art-----but the orders went back down to where they were before the crossover meaning that those people wouldn't even be able to pick She-Hulk up.

I know these are trying economic times but if anyone can afford to order some extra copies or get some friends who may be interested in the character but haven't picked up her series to tell their retailers they want the next 3 issues it could send a message to Marvel. If retailer are forced to up their orders it may make Marvel reconsider and give the book some more time.

[Mikeymike]

I just got the Wizard Platinum special in the mail and it's a preview for 2009. There is an article about what Peter David will be up to in the new year and it lists both X-Factor and She-Hulk as his two ongoing series. Now I am sure that at press time they did not have the news yet of She-Hulk's cancelation----but when Mr. David was asked about what was coming up in the book in 09, he said that there was some startling stuff ahead that Marvel has asked him to keep quiet.

I wonder if that offers a ray of hope ? Could there be something in She-Hulk's future that Mr. David just can't talk about yet ? I have no shame----I will grasp at straws.

[Merrik]

Maybe he meant the cancellation? :evilangry:

Or maybe he did have some really cool plans, and then Marvel yanked the carpet out from under him.

Looking on the positive side isn't necessarily a bad thing though. I should try it, but I'm still very very bitter about this whole thing.

[Mikeymike]

Maybe he meant the cancellation? :evilangry:

Or maybe he did have some really cool plans, and then Marvel yanked the carpet out from under him.

Looking on the positive side isn't necessarily a bad thing though. I should try it, but I'm still very very bitter about this whole thing.

I know. I was thinking too he could've meant the cancelation because he might've already known at that point and couldn't say. But "startling" sounds like something good and exciting not disappointing like the cancelation is. Then again, as you say----maybe he had some very cool plans for the book that he is now not going to be able to pursue. That is even more disappointing.

But it is nice to dream that maybe She-Hulk is being canceled to make way for a "She-Hulk and the Lady Liberators" ongoing series by Peter David. That would make me feel a whole lot better about the cancelation !

[Mikeymike]

So what are the chances She-Hulk fans could unite in the same way Spider-Girl fans have done ? I don't understand what makes the She-Hulk fanbase so splintered. I just want my favorite heroine in her own series. Like any long term series, there are bound to be directions taken that a person may like less than others but no creative team is permanent. A person will never get the chance to see the verision of She-Hulk they most want to see if she has no book for it to appear in. I think anyone who loves this character should try to unite and see if we can do something to keep She-Hulk afloat. I am already ordering extra copies of the remaining issues.

[pariah-1972]

So what are the chances She-Hulk fans could unite in the same way Spider-Girl fans have done ? I don't understand what makes the She-Hulk fanbase so splintered. I just want my favorite heroine in her own series. Like any long term series, there are bound to be directions taken that a person may like less than others but no creative team is permanent. A person will never get the chance to see the verision of She-Hulk they most want to see if she has no book for it to appear in. I think anyone who loves this character should try to unite and see if we can do something to keep She-Hulk afloat. I am already ordering extra copies of the remaining issues.Start a write in campaign yo !

[Mikeymike]

Well how about everyone here dropping a snail mail letter in support of the She-Hulk book to this address:

Marvel Entertainment, Inc.
417 5th Avenue
New York, NY 10016

Some of the people the letters could go to would be:
Dan Buckley, Publisher
Joe Quesada, Editor in Chief
Tom Brevoort, Executive Editor
David Gabriel, Senior Vice President of Publishing Sales and Circulation

I have already written in myself both through snail mail and e-mail but I know the snail mail is what really counts.

I also wanted to say I really agree with Merrick's post about She-Hulk's progression as a character. This has by far been my most favorite She-Hulk series. I fell in love with the character in Savage but that run was too brief. I enjoyed Sensational for what it was----sometimes it's nice to have a book that is just fun, but yeah----it didn't have much character growth. Whenever I pictured another She-Hulk series, I pictured it being more of a combination of her two previous ones. It should still have a sense of humor but at the same time, it should have continuing drama and good characterization. And that is exactly what we have gotten with Dan Slott and Peter David.

I love that Jen has founded the Lady Liberators and taken the lead position ! My retailer told me that he has at least 20 subscriptions for She-Hulk in his store while some other Marvel books have 6 or less. He would definitely rather see Marvel cancel one of those titles over She-Hulk. And so would I !

[DeadXMan]

Yeah. Or something like that. I've heard people talking about a relaunch or something too. I don't know. Exiles hasn't been worth my attention since Winick left.

about the time the bugs came in is when I droped it
I came back for CC and enjoyed it. especially now
:frown:

[stingerman]

I have already written in myself both through snail mail and e-mail but I know the snail mail is what really counts.


Worked for Quasar :wink: .

[Sandy Hausler]

I love that Jen has founded the Lady Liberators and taken the lead position !

Uh, actually, the Lady Liberators were founded by the Enchantress. Of course, that was a one-time thing and a long time ago.

Sandy Hausler

[Merrik]

Uh, actually, the Lady Liberators were founded by the Enchantress. Of course, that was a one-time thing and a long time ago.

Sandy Hausler


This group is infinitely different than the Lady Liberators that were founded by the Enchantress. That was a mock group put together so the Enchantress could take out male heroes. She-Hulk definitely founded the modern and current incarnation of the Lady Liberators, which besides the same name, are basically two very different groups.

So the point still stands. :tongue:

[Mikeymike]

Yep---that is what I meant. Jen founded this version of the Liberators. She's the one who called them together and she is the one who has led them into battle. I was definitely aware of the previous version but She-Hulk is the founder of the current version.

[Sandy Hausler]

This group is infinitely different than the Lady Liberators that were founded by the Enchantress. That was a mock group put together so the Enchantress could take out male heroes. She-Hulk definitely founded the modern and current incarnation of the Lady Liberators, which besides the same name, are basically two very different groups.

So the point still stands. :tongue:

Uh, what was the point?:confused:

Sandy Hausler

[Expletive Deleted]

I love that Jen has founded the Lady Liberators and taken the lead position !


Uh, actually, the Lady Liberators were founded by the Enchantress. Of course, that was a one-time thing and a long time ago.


This group is infinitely different than the Lady Liberators that were founded by the Enchantress. That was a mock group put together so the Enchantress could take out male heroes. She-Hulk definitely founded the modern and current incarnation of the Lady Liberators, which besides the same name, are basically two very different groups.

So the point still stands. :tongue:


Uh, what was the point?:confused:The one you, uh, attempted to correct.

[Sandy Hausler]

The one you, uh, attempted to correct.


It's so nice when other people do my research.

We're agreed that Jen "founded" the new incarnation of the Lady Liberators. And we also agree that the original Lady Liberators was nothing but a fake group created by the Enchantress to have the female Avengers beat up on the males.

I believe that this new incarnation of the group is an un-team, akin to the Defenders (and probably more informal than that). I would love for them to get their own series, but given that it is rare that a female lead (or, for that matter, a minority) can carry a book, I'm not sure how a group of females would go in the marketplace. But I would buy it.

Sandy Hausler

[marvelboi77]

I have been having really bad luck. I am now only collecting 10 comics a month as of 4 months ago. 5 of them have been cancelled.
Manhunter
Catwoman
Birds of Prey
Spidergirl
She-Hulk

The way my luck is going I guess these 5 will be cancelled next
Secret 6
Ms. Marvel
Wonder Woman
Thunderbolts
JSA

[Mikeymike]

It's so nice when other people do my research.

We're agreed that Jen "founded" the new incarnation of the Lady Liberators. And we also agree that the original Lady Liberators was nothing but a fake group created by the Enchantress to have the female Avengers beat up on the males.

I believe that this new incarnation of the group is an un-team, akin to the Defenders (and probably more informal than that). I would love for them to get their own series, but given that it is rare that a female lead (or, for that matter, a minority) can carry a book, I'm not sure how a group of females would go in the marketplace. But I would buy it.

Sandy Hausler

Hey Sandy----one good thing---Birds of Prey did have a very lengthy run and it doesn't seem to have been canceled due to sales but rather by story dictated reasons. So there is precedent for a book with a female lead and group of females having some longevity. Of course, Marvel never seems to have much luck in this dept but maybe She-Hulk and the Lady Liberators could change that ? Well, one can hope !

[Sandy Hausler]

Hey Sandy----one good thing---Birds of Prey did have a very lengthy run and it doesn't seem to have been canceled due to sales but rather by story dictated reasons. So there is precedent for a book with a female lead and group of females having some longevity. Of course, Marvel never seems to have much luck in this dept but maybe She-Hulk and the Lady Liberators could change that ? Well, one can hope !


I had actually forgotten Birds of Prey, a book that I enjoyed, at least unitl the one year bump. I didn't realize it was ending.

I only saw one episode of the televeision version, which did not overwhelm me, but at least it actually made it to TV.

As I said, I would love a Lady Liberators book. Let's see if Marvel will give it a try.

Sandy Hausler

[Mikeymike]

I had actually forgotten Birds of Prey, a book that I enjoyed, at least unitl the one year bump. I didn't realize it was ending.

I only saw one episode of the televeision version, which did not overwhelm me, but at least it actually made it to TV.

As I said, I would love a Lady Liberators book. Let's see if Marvel will give it a try.

Sandy Hausler

I hope so. At this point that is pretty much the only thing that would make me able to accept She-Hulk ending. I would really like the Lady Liberators to be written by Peter David. He has a great handle on all of them----I love their chemistry and interaction with each other. Plus, it keeps sounding like PAD had big plans for She-Hulk in 2009 so it really bums me out not being able to see those plans unfold. But if he were to write a new Liberators series then maybe we would get to see what he had in store for Shulkie.

If we don't get that as a new series, I know that She-Hulk remains as one of Dan Slott's top 5 favorite Marvel characters----I would bet he is not done with her. Heck, there is still the Reckoning War that needs to unfold. Maybe at some point if it worked into Dan's schedule and he wanted to do another She-Hulk monthly, they would grant it to him ? I don't know.

I truly enjoyed both Dan and Peter equally on the series. I hate losing what PAD is doing right now, hate it-----but I also want to see She-Hulk in her own series so I guess I'll hold out hope for any way of making that happen.