OK, a simple question for Southern Baptists ...

[AaronJ]

I was having an argument with a friend earlier tonight. I am an atheist, and have had no religious upbringing at all. I think I've been to church like four times in my life, three of which were on Christmas Eve, just because it's a beautiful service.

Anyway, his argument was that Southern Baptists believe that Jesus was entirely divine, and not in any way human.

My argument was that almost all Christians believe that Jesus was one person with two natures, one divine and one human.

Can someone please tell me if I was totally wrong, totally right, or mostly wrong or mostly right? :)

I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

[Dazzler]

I was having an argument with a friend earlier tonight. I am an atheist, and have had no religious upbringing at all. I think I've been to church like four times in my life, three of which were on Christmas Eve, just because it's a beautiful service.

Anyway, his argument was that Southern Baptists believe that Jesus was entirely divine, and not in any way human.

My argument was that almost all Christians believe that Jesus was one person with two natures, one divine and one human.

Can someone please tell me if I was totally wrong, totally right, or mostly wrong or mostly right? :)

I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

Well, I was raised Southern Baptist, and I was always taught that Jesus was both human and divine.

Although, my preachers always stressed that he was human in all the good ways and didn't have any of the "BAD" things like sexuality or whatnot.

I always thought that was crap. I've always thought that Jesus was divine in all the ways that matter and human in all the ways that matter. The thing that appealed to me about him was that he was human in all the "BAD" ways, too, but had a better handle on how to deal with them.

I don't know what to tell you, except that religion is funny that way. You can have the same testaments and forty different people will have been taught forty different things about them.

--Dazz

[AaronJ]

Thank you, for your answer. I really do appreciate.


But even as an atheist, the concept of a fully divine, totally non-human Jesus makes ZERO sense in terms of the New Testament. How does a god die? How does a god get angry? Etc.?

Jesus, in the NT, acts like a man. It doesn't mean he isn't also divine. But he acts like a man who is also divine.

[the4thpip]

It's a little like in the first Journey into Mystery stories, Thor was a human who gained divine powers when he stomped his cane on the floor. Later they retconned his origin so that Blake had always been Thor who had been banished to live on Earth as a human.

[AaronJ]

It's a little like in the first Journey into Mystery stories, Thor was a human who gained divine powers when he stomped his cane on the floor. Later they retconned his origin so that Blake had always been Thor who had been banished to live on Earth as a human.

OK, as a totally DC person, that doesn't really help. ;)

Kidding. Thanks.

[FalconX2000]

Thank you, for your answer. I really do appreciate.


But even as an atheist, the concept of a fully divine, totally non-human Jesus makes ZERO sense in terms of the New Testament. How does a god die? How does a god get angry? Etc.?

Jesus, in the NT, acts like a man. It doesn't mean he isn't also divine. But he acts like a man who is also divine.

Actually, God did get angry plenty of times. And when it happened, he did more than overturn a few tables and shoo merchants away.

Also, I'm no expert, but I do believe Jesus only appears in the New Testament.

[DavidAllred]

Well, I was raised Southern Baptist, and I was always taught that Jesus was both human and divine. --Dazz

Yes, Dazz is spot on. Your friend doesn't understand his own denomination very well. I was also raised Baptist.

http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp#ii

[Solaris]

Thank you, for your answer. I really do appreciate.


But even as an atheist, the concept of a fully divine, totally non-human Jesus makes ZERO sense in terms of the New Testament. How does a god die? How does a god get angry? Etc.?

Jesus, in the NT, acts like a man. It doesn't mean he isn't also divine. But he acts like a man who is also divine.


The doctrine I was taught as a Southern Methodist was that God saw a need for a closer, more direct relationship with mankind... so He sent his son (some would say a piece of Himself) into a human body, to experience life as a human does, to give us something human in God to relate to. In other words, that Jesus was both human (born of a woman and in a human body, and growing up with human limitations in a human world), and divine (in spirit).

As to the "level" of divinity, and when it occurred... that's seen in different lights:

Some say he was fully divine in spirit from the moment of birth, or even conception.

Some say, referring to the verses about Jesus's sojourn in the wilderness when the devil tempted him, that he was born with the *potential* for spiritual divinity, but that it didn't become an actuality until Jesus went through that ordeal, rejected Satan's temptation, and accepted his role/path in life.

Being a peculiar brand of Pagan, I see it in an odd fashion:

Yes, Jesus was the child of (a) God. Yes, Jesus was born with that potential... but it took a free, willing, and knowledgeable choice for him to accept that path in life, and to turn that potential into reality. No, Jesus was not the only human being to ever do this... nor was he the only being to ever be generated by a god (and this is the part that would get many Christian's hackles up, but that's how I see it). He *is* one of the few that his "god-parentage" became widely known.

In some way, we are *all* children of the Creator, and we *all* possess that spark and presence within us. My belief is that it is the Creator's permeation of all everything that allows everything to exist. As beings with free will, however, we have the option to reject, with our lives and our hearts, as much of the Creator and It's love as we can while still existing. One of the biggest things wrong with our world is the individual rejection of that love, and of allowing that love to work through us in our lives.

I tend to see Jesus as the "more advanced older brother" who worked and sacrificed to try to inspire and to help people experience that Universal Love, and to encourage them to bring it into their lives and allow it to work miracles with them. I have no problem seeing the divinity in him---what trips a lot of people up is that I see the divinity in *all* of us. Jesus wasn't special in being a child of God---he was special in what he *did* with it, in how he worked hard to align himself with, and express through his life, that Universal Love.

Was he there with God at the beginning? Perhaps. Perhaps we all were. Is that important to who and what he was---does it change one jot of his message? No. Worrying about stuff like that is mere quibbling for prominence, IMO. We don't need to know for certain his antecedents, in order to understand what he was, what he said, what he did... and what he tried to give the rest of us.

[AaronJ]

Thank you, Solaris. That was very enlightening and interesting.

[Paul McEnery]

It's a little like in the first Journey into Mystery stories, Thor was a human who gained divine powers when he stomped his cane on the floor. Later they retconned his origin so that Blake had always been Thor who had been banished to live on Earth as a human.

That's ridiculous.

Obviously Jesus is more like DC's Captain Marvel, who started out as being possessed by a divine spirit, but then became a boy's mind in a superhero's body, and then suddenly there were dozens of them around and who the hell knows what's going on now.

[PatrickG]

That's ridiculous.

Obviously Jesus is more like DC's Captain Marvel, who started out as being possessed by a divine spirit, but then became a boy's mind in a superhero's body, and then suddenly there were dozens of them around and who the hell knows what's going on now.

Are you proposing an Uncle Dudley Christ?

Or are you going with some strange angle on Shazam where, I dunno, Billy straps himself to a Lightning Rod forged from the Spear of Longinus, says the magic word and the magic lightning bolt is pumped through a Verdium Tesla coil and transmitted via MIT's WiTricity, democratizing the power of Shazam by transforming the neuro-chemical spark of every living thing on earth into magic lightning and as the lightning strikes as thought, ideas become imbued with the power of pantheons?!

[Paul McEnery]

Actually, God did get angry plenty of times. And when it happened, he did more than overturn a few tables and shoo merchants away.

Also, I'm no expert, but I do believe Jesus only appears in the New Testament.

No. There's a new version by George Lucas, and he's used special effects to get Jesus into Isaiah and a couple other books.

[Paul McEnery]

Are you proposing an Uncle Dudley Christ?

Or are you going with some strange angle on Shazam where, I dunno, Billy straps himself to a Lightning Rod forged from the Spear of Longinus, says the magic word and the magic lightning bolt is pumped through a Verdium Tesla coil and transmitted via MIT's WiTricity, democratizing the power of Shazam by transforming the neuro-chemical spark of every living thing on earth into magic lightning and as the lightning strikes as thought, ideas become imbued with the power of pantheons?!

Since I like the second one, yes, that's exactly what I said.

[LewisH]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

Cardinal beliefs of Protestants:

There appears to be a general consensus by conservative and some mainline Protestant faith groups that a list of core beliefs might include:

The Trinity,
The deity of Jesus,
Jesus' bodily resurrection,
The atonement as a result of the life, and particularly the death, of Jesus,
Personal salvation by grace,
The inerrancy of the Bible
God's inspiration of the Bible's authors,
The virgin birth, and
The anticipated second coming of Jesus.


The Apostles' Creed describes belief in: God, as originally described in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament), the creator of the universe.
Jesus Christ God's only begotten son, who was born of a virgin, executed, descended into Hell, rose again and ascended into heaven.
The Holy Spirit, the method by which God communicates with mankind.
The catholic church -- interpreted by Roman Catholics as referring to the Roman Catholic Church; interpreted by many Protestants as referring to all Christians; interpreted by other Protestants as referring to all born again Christians.
The communion of saints, forgiveness of sins, resurrection of the body after death, and eternal life after death.


Nicene Creed: Most Christian faith groups also recognize this longer creed. It was originally written and adopted at the Council of Nicea in 325 CE. It was then modified at the second Council at Constantinople in 381 CE. where a description of the Holy Spirit was added. It is more properly called the Niceno-Constantinopolitan or Constantinopolitan Creed. 4
It repeats the concepts of the Apostles' Creed and further describes: Christ as having existed since before the creation of the world, and who will return to earth at some time in the future, to judge everyone, including the dead.
Christ is "one substance" with God.
Baptism is needed for the remission of sins; this implies that only baptized persons will be saved; the rest will spend eternity in Hell after death. 5
The Holy Spirit as the giver of life who has spoken through the Prophets and is to be worshiped and glorified

[MacQuarrie]

I was having an argument with a friend earlier tonight. I am an atheist, and have had no religious upbringing at all. I think I've been to church like four times in my life, three of which were on Christmas Eve, just because it's a beautiful service.

Anyway, his argument was that Southern Baptists believe that Jesus was entirely divine, and not in any way human.

My argument was that almost all Christians believe that Jesus was one person with two natures, one divine and one human.

Can someone please tell me if I was totally wrong, totally right, or mostly wrong or mostly right? :)

I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

That teaching is found among Coptic Christians, a denomination based in Egypt.

[Solaris]

Thank you, Solaris. That was very enlightening and interesting.

You're welcome... and thank YOU. :smile:

[Briareos]

I was having an argument with a friend earlier tonight. I am an atheist, and have had no religious upbringing at all. I think I've been to church like four times in my life, three of which were on Christmas Eve, just because it's a beautiful service.

Anyway, his argument was that Southern Baptists believe that Jesus was entirely divine, and not in any way human.

My argument was that almost all Christians believe that Jesus was one person with two natures, one divine and one human.

Can someone please tell me if I was totally wrong, totally right, or mostly wrong or mostly right? :)

I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

He was a human just like you and me. That was the whole point.

[Briareos]

Actually, God did get angry plenty of times. And when it happened, he did more than overturn a few tables and shoo merchants away.

Also, I'm no expert, but I do believe Jesus only appears in the New Testament.

He appears there but he is prophizied in the Old.

[Briareos]

Well, I was raised Southern Baptist, and I was always taught that Jesus was both human and divine.

Although, my preachers always stressed that he was human in all the good ways and didn't have any of the "BAD" things like sexuality or whatnot.

I always thought that was crap. I've always thought that Jesus was divine in all the ways that matter and human in all the ways that matter. The thing that appealed to me about him was that he was human in all the "BAD" ways, too, but had a better handle on how to deal with them.

I don't know what to tell you, except that religion is funny that way. You can have the same testaments and forty different people will have been taught forty different things about them.

--Dazz

He was human but he was born without sin which we are not. He was perfect in ways we cannot be and he never sinned. He did have a human body and went through human experiences and understand how and why we can sin but he never sinned himself.

[Alex Scott]

Everyone's pretty much got it.

As for why a god -- or God Himself -- would die, there's really only one answer: he chose to. It's just as Solaris said. God wants to be closer to mankind, and to that end, he comes among us and participates in our nature... including the bad, painful, death-y parts. And in doing so, he conquers the bad, painful, death-y parts, and redeems and sanctifies human nature. At least, that's my view based on a combination of Church Fathers, Gustav Aulén, Episcopalian niceness, and Eastern Orthodox theology.

Are you sure your friend isn't a Jehovah's Witness? I don't think they believe in Christ's humanity.

[PatrickG]

Since I like the second one, yes, that's exactly what I said.

Incidentally, I would be inclined to cast Billy as the DCU's messiah and Superman as John the Baptist or a pagan sungod analogue.

Superman; Captain Marvel :: King Arthur: Jesus.

The idea of the divinity and the flesh in contrast and a band of followers make for a strong parallel.

And the idea of a lightning rod crucifix is just too rockin'. ('Course, the beauty is that it wouldn't kill Billy but it could metaphorically kill/disperse Cap -- at least until the resurrection).

[Sally Sensational]

Everyone's pretty much got it.

As for why a god -- or God Himself -- would die, there's really only one answer: he chose to. It's just as Solaris said. God wants to be closer to mankind, and to that end, he comes among us and participates in our nature... including the bad, painful, death-y parts. And in doing so, he conquers the bad, painful, death-y parts, and redeems and sanctifies human nature. At least, that's my view based on a combination of Church Fathers, Gustav Aulén, Episcopalian niceness, and Eastern Orthodox theology.

Are you sure your friend isn't a Jehovah's Witness? I don't think they believe in Christ's humanity.

Actually, Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in Jesus's divinity, although you have to read their literature pretty closely to figure that out, since they want to be included in what are considered Christian denominations.

Southern Baptist doctrine does indeed unequivocally state that Jesus was BOTH fully human and fully divine. Denying either nature lessens his impact.

[Briareos]

Everyone's pretty much got it.

As for why a god -- or God Himself -- would die, there's really only one answer: he chose to. It's just as Solaris said. God wants to be closer to mankind, and to that end, he comes among us and participates in our nature... including the bad, painful, death-y parts. And in doing so, he conquers the bad, painful, death-y parts, and redeems and sanctifies human nature. At least, that's my view based on a combination of Church Fathers, Gustav Aulén, Episcopalian niceness, and Eastern Orthodox theology.

Are you sure your friend isn't a Jehovah's Witness? I don't think they believe in Christ's humanity.

And also he was the only one that could. Cause he was without sin. The only way to atone for man's sin was the sacrifice of someone sinless. God not only provided us with that person he sacrificed his son he loved us so much.

[jesse_custer]

Raised Southern Baptist. Yes, Baptists do believe Jesus is equally man and god. They buy into the idea that an ultimate earthly sacrifice for our sins was necessary. Therefore, Jesus had to be a man.