Should a Father teach a small child how to shoot a gun??

[RolandJP]

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/11/09/america/Child-Charged-Optional.php


ST. JOHNS, Arizona: By all accounts, he was a good boy. No problems in school. No disruptions in his religious education classes at St. Johns Catholic Church, where he was to mark his First Communion this year.

So the police and neighbors in the 8-year-old's small eastern Arizona community are at a loss to explain why he would have used a .22-caliber rifle to kill his father and another man at their home.

"That child, I don't think he knows what he did, and it was brutal," said the family priest, the Very Reverend John Paul Sauter.


On Friday, a judge ordered a psychological evaluation of the boy. Under Arizona law, charges can be filed against anyone 8 or older.

"He had no record of any kind, not even a disciplinary record at school," he said. "He has never been in trouble before."

Romero was from a family of avid hunters and wanted to make sure the boy wasn't afraid of guns and knew how to handle them, Sauter said. The boy's stepmother had suggested he have a BB gun, the priest said.

It is not unusual in a state like many around the West with liberal gun laws for children to learn early how to shoot small animals in the company of their fathers. But it might have been too much for an 8-year-old, Sauter said Saturday.

[StoneGold]

It's a good couple of weeks for eight year olds with guns.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/11/08/questions_grow_after_uzi_death_of_child/

[EZMOHR]

The investigation now says the father and the friend were molesting the kid. So yeah.....anyway



To the real question. I have a job where I have weapons (and being a SWAT team member, I have a lot.) Guns, whether I like it or not, will be a part of my families life. I have 6 girls and 1 boy that need to know what guns can do. I have no problem showing my children how to shoot a gun, and how to handle one effectivly and extremely safe, so they do not decide to just grab one out of my safe, and learn on their own. And, I find if you take the mystery out of a gun for a youngster...they really aren't that interesting to them.

[Lord of Denial]

Yes it is to young for an 8 year old to learn to use a gun, they don't have the emotional restraint or ability to understand the responsibility and consequences that come along with a using a firearm.

[o1pickleboy]

The investigation now says the father and the friend were molesting the kid. So yeah.....anyway



To the real question. I have a job where I have weapons (and being a SWAT team member, I have a lot.) Guns, whether I like it or not, will be a part of my families life. I have 6 girls and 1 boy that need to know what guns can do. I have no problem showing my children how to shoot a gun, and how to handle one effectively and extremely safe, so they do not decide to just grab one out of my safe, and learn on their own. And, I find if you take the mystery out of a gun for a youngster...they really aren't that interesting to them.

Just to add to this. As a child who learn about guns at a young age. The education about responsibility with a gun and that it isn't toy and what exactly are the uses for a gun. For me guns were mainly about hunting, but I always was reminded of deadly they were. That education I think is key why us in rural community live closer with guns, but don't have the accidents that urban and suburban communities do.

[EZMOHR]

Just to add to this. As a child who learn about guns at a young age. The education about responsibility with a gun and that it isn't toy and what exactly are the uses for a gun. For me guns were mainly about hunting, but I always was reminded of deadly they were. That education I think is key why us in rural community live closer with guns, but don't have the accidents that urban and suburban communities do.

Boom...EDUCATION. Like I said, I'm on the SWAT team, and I've taught all my kids old enough the dangers and responsibilities of a gun. Not just me, I've taken them to hunting courses, and have had the range master at my department show them too. EDUCATION is the key to guns. Most people say, "guns are bad," and that's it. I wish people would educate their kids on gun use.

But, this 8-year old story about kids and guns, the way the investigation is going now...is not about kids and guns. It's turning into a kid that was molested and then it gets dicey. Kids learning about guns, and this story, are apples and oranges.

[EZMOHR]

Yes it is to young for an 8 year old to learn to use a gun, they don't have the emotional restraint or ability to understand the responsibility and consequences that come along with a using a firearm.

Sorry, that is short changing 8 year olds. If you are 8 years old, and you are living around guns anyway...that is the age they NEED to be taught the dangers of a gun. It is just stupid not to educate a young child that is around guns.

[StoneGold]

The investigation now says the father and the friend were molesting the kid. So yeah.....anyway



Unless you've been reading something I haven't... all I've read is investigators looking into abuse, but no evidence of it. Unless CNN is covering something up from their article from less than an hour ago...

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/10/child.charged.arizona.killing/?iref=hpmostpop

[EZMOHR]

Unless you've been reading something I haven't... all I've read is investigators looking into abuse, but no evidence of it. Unless CNN is covering something up from their article from less than an hour ago...

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/10/child.charged.arizona.killing/?iref=hpmostpop

It's been on yahoo news all day yesterday and today. Sorry to CNN I guess. If it goes back to the kid just did for no reason, then that becomes an issue again. But still, if this is just some bad seed, would a gun in the house have really stopped what this kid was gonna do eventually...be it environmental or mental issues.

[Shellhead]

I feel that cars and guns are equally dangerous in the wrong hands. As a society, we have decided that kids shouldn't be allowed to drive until they are in their late teens, and they shouldn't drive alone until passing a test to demonstrate basic knowledge and proficiency. Why should guns be any different? And if guns are really different, what is an appropriate age for kids to start handling guns? Obviously infants should not be handling guns. What about toddlers? Kindergarten? First grade? What is a reasonable minimum age?

[EZMOHR]

I feel that cars and guns are equally dangerous in the wrong hands. As a society, we have decided that kids shouldn't be allowed to drive until they are in their late teens, and they shouldn't drive alone until passing a test to demonstrate basic knowledge and proficiency. Why should guns be any different? And if guns are really different, what is an appropriate age for kids to start handling guns? Obviously infants should not be handling guns. What about toddlers? Kindergarten? First grade? What is a reasonable minimum age?

I learned about guns before Kindergarten. It depends. If you aren't around them as a kid...and you won't be....why worry about them. If you are child that lives under the same roof as a gun....you aren't meeting your parental duties if you just hide it and hope the kids don't find it or want to know what it does. There is no set age really...just what is comfortable for the parent.

To be honest with you, no one should drive a car until their 21 in my opinion...but that is a different issue.

[o1pickleboy]

I feel that cars and guns are equally dangerous in the wrong hands. As a society, we have decided that kids shouldn't be allowed to drive until they are in their late teens, and they shouldn't drive alone until passing a test to demonstrate basic knowledge and proficiency. Why should guns be any different? And if guns are really different, what is an appropriate age for kids to start handling guns? Obviously infants should not be handling guns. What about toddlers? Kindergarten? First grade? What is a reasonable minimum age?


This goes to the age debate. Emotion maturity and age are mutually exclusive. I know many 8 year olds that are more responsible that many 16 year olds. As for shooting a gun, I think 8 even in the best case scenario is too young for a child to learn how to fire a gun and use it a regular basis, but they are never to young to learn about the dangers and responsibility of gun use.

[RolandJP]

Sorry, that is short changing 8 year olds. If you are 8 years old, and you are living around guns anyway...that is the age they NEED to be taught the dangers of a gun. It is just stupid not to educate a young child that is around guns.

I agree with you and I feel a child learns more from a knowledgeable gun owning parent. Especially if he or she has a good attitude towards other people--

Example: if a man who owns a gun comes home and says, " yeah these butt holes give me trouble today, they are lucky i didnt have my gun with me. That influences a child more than a thousand gun safety sermons. You are right children are smarter than we think. They learn how to act by watching what we do, not by what we say.

[Shellhead]

My dad had a .22 rifle in the house while I was growing up. He never showed me how to handle it, just told me to leave it alone. One time when I was 11, when my parents weren't around, I got the rifle out of the closet and showed it to my best friend. We didn't point it at each other or anything really stupid, and after looking at it, we put it back without disaster. A year later, my uncle took me out to the shooting range a couple of times, and taught me some basic gun safety. As I look back, it disappoints me that my dad didn't handle gun ownership more responsibly.

I suppose cars are different, in that most gun owners aren't getting their guns out and carrying them around every day, but most car owners are driving every day. And in the process of driving, they are encountering a lot of other drivers each day.

[Grazzt]

It's been on yahoo news all day yesterday and today. Sorry to CNN I guess.

Okay, I've been going over the Yahoo news site and the closest I can find is this (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081108/ap_on_re_us/child_charged):


"I'm not accusing anybody of anything at this point," he said Saturday. "But we're certainly going to look at the abuse part of this. He's 8 years old. He just doesn't decide one day that he's going to shoot his father and shoot his father's friend for no reason. Something led up to this."

Are you sure you aren't just mistaking this officer's supposition for fact?

[Dreadstar]

What is a reasonable minimum age?


The correct answer is that it depends on each individual child, of course.

Plus, there's a VAST difference between allowing an 8 year-old fire a .22 under full supervision as a learning experience and handing him a .22 and letting him loose.

My kid is 18, and in college. Frankly, I don't think I'd let him near a loaded weapon. Not from lack of trying to teach or exposure to guns. Simply because he never took to it when exposed to the experience. At all.

He knows the basics. He's been taught the proper usage and rules. He just never cared nor seemed to appreciate the gravity of it. So he's better off not having anything to do with them.

[Puma]

I learned gun safety, and how to shoot, when I was five from my Dad and my Grandfather (who taught hunters safety). My parents never kept a handgun when my brother and I were kids but we did have a couple of rifles we knew weren't toys. A child can be taught that they aren't toys and that they are dangerous; it depends on responsible parents/family doing the teaching.

[o1pickleboy]

My dad had a .22 rifle in the house while I was growing up. He never showed me how to handle it, just told me to leave it alone. One time when I was 11, when my parents weren't around, I got the rifle out of the closet and showed it to my best friend. We didn't point it at each other or anything really stupid, and after looking at it, we put it back without disaster. A year later, my uncle took me out to the shooting range a couple of times, and taught me some basic gun safety. As I look back, it disappoints me that my dad didn't handle gun ownership more responsibly.

I suppose cars are different, in that most gun owners aren't getting their guns out and carrying them around every day, but most car owners are driving every day. And in the process of driving, they are encountering a lot of other drivers each day.


To add, Many parents aren't taking the opportunity each day to teach there children good driving habits. Many are not telling there kids anything about the road and showing their kids on a daily basis there bad habits which educates them far more than most parents realize.

[rick]

I learned gun safety, and how to shoot, when I was five from my Dad and my Grandfather (who taught hunters safety). My parents never kept a handgun when my brother and I were kids but we did have a couple of rifles we knew weren't toys. A child can be taught that they aren't toys and that they are dangerous; it depends on responsible parents/family doing the teaching.


My story is more or less the same.

If you have guns in the house then your children need to understand them.

[Lord of Denial]

If you do things right your children should never face that situation in YOUR home. I personally own 30 + guns and they all have trigger locks, are placed in a combination gun safe with the bullets in a separate safe inside a locked closet inside a locked at all times room and they go out my office entrance to my car so they never leave that room. My children would have to be Batman to even see a gun in my home.

But I see the peoples point that they should be taught gun safety because they have friends whose parents might not be so gun conscious and the only way to ensure safety on any level outside your own home is to educate them to the dangers and proper safety procedures.

You can't control every aspect of your childs life 24/7 and you can control the habits of others at all.

[StoneGold]

Okay, I've been going over the Yahoo news site and the closest I can find is this (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081108/ap_on_re_us/child_charged):



Are you sure you aren't just mistaking this officer's supposition for fact?

That's what I'm thinking. Unless I get a link, I'm chalking this up to Nancy Grace-style reactionism.



Which isn't to say he wasn't, but to accuse before any evidence comes out... that's not very nice.

[StoneGold]

If you do things right your children should never face that situation in YOUR home. I personally own 30 + guns and they all have trigger locks, are placed in a combination gun safe with the bullets in a separate safe inside a locked closet inside a locked at all times room and they go out my office entrance to my car so they never leave that room. My children would have to be Batman to even see a gun in my home.

But I see the peoples point that they should be taught gun safety because they have friends whose parents might not be so gun conscious and the only way to ensure safety on any level outside your own home is to educate them to the dangers and proper safety procedures.

You can't control every aspect of your childs life 24/7 and you can control the habits of others at all.
I'm suddenly trying to figure which would be odder, having more guns than children or more children than guns?

[Black Atom]

I may be taking a lot for granted, but who doesn't know what a gun does? Honestly. I think by 5 (or earlier) I'd either seen enough cartoons with Daffy getting his beak blown off or had enough toy guns to look at any gun and know which end goes boom and which part makes it go. It's not sex ed or even driver's ed--the concept seems pretty straight-forward.

[StoneGold]

I may be taking a lot for granted, but who doesn't know what a gun does? Honestly. I think by 5 (or earlier) I'd either seen enough cartoons with Daffy getting his beak blown off or had enough toy guns to look at any gun and know which end goes boom and which part makes it go. It's not sex ed or even driver's ed--the concept seems pretty straight-forward.

Actually, the Daffy thing works kind of counter to that. It makes his beak go all screwy and his feathers fall off.

[EZMOHR]

Okay, I've been going over the Yahoo news site and the closest I can find is this (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081108/ap_on_re_us/child_charged):



Are you sure you aren't just mistaking this officer's supposition for fact?

When I said "investigation"....that would be an example of "investigation." Like he said...8 year olds just don't go around shooting people for no reason. PERIOD. Gun safety or not, whatever or not...gun safety and a kid knowing a gun has nothing to do with this story no matter what outcome there is.

[Grazzt]

When I said "investigation"....that would be an example of "investigation." Like he said...8 year olds just don't go around shooting people for no reason. PERIOD. Gun safety or not, whatever or not...gun safety and a kid knowing a gun has nothing to do with this story no matter what outcome there is.

Okay, I agree that it has no bearing on the thread. But stating that a murdered man molested his murderer (who happens to be his eight-year-old son) with no proof? Not cool.

[EZMOHR]

Okay, I agree that it has no bearing on the thread. But stating that a murdered man molested his murderer (who happens to be his eight-year-old son) with no proof? Not cool.

Swear that was on Yahoo yesterday (The cops saying molestation was the motive perhaps.) Could've been somewhere else. But, my wife showed me the news story, and I read it with my eyes. I know it was there. Could've been somewhere else...I just thought it was Yahoo News.

[The Black Guardian]

I'm going to agree with EZMOHR about the guns and kids thing. When I was in 1st-2nd grade, one of my best friends had cops for parents. This was almost 40 years ago, and people just weren't used to reports about kids playing with their parents' guns.

These parents did next to nothing about teaching my friend about guns. All they told him was that our guns are in the closet and you're never to touch them. Of course, my friend did touch the gun. One day, I was at his house playing (we were both latch-key kids), and he says, "Hey, look at this. It's real." Freaked the living heck out of me. I immediately told my mom about it when she picked me up, and I never went back to his house, unless his parents were home. She, of course, told his parents, and this didn't really phase them much. I knew more about gun safety, despite not having a real gun anywhere near me. From my first cap gun, the adults in my life told me of the dangers of guns. I knew from my father's murder that guns are deadly.

A few months later, at his birthday party, even though his parents were there, he and all of the kids were out playing in the yard. He presents one of his parents' bullets. He proceeds to place it in a garbage can lid, covering it with dead leaves, which he promptly sets on fire. The bullet exploded, as bullets do, and struck him in the chest, missing his heart by an inch. Luckily, he survived.

So yes, kids who live in homes with guns need to be taught, from the day they can understand the words, what guns can do. 3 years old isn't too young. It doesn't depend on the child. They all need this teaching, coupled with the respect for life and health.

[Slam_Bradley]

If there are guns in the house it is the obligation of the adults in the house to teach the children about them. How they work. What they do. What the dangers are. 8 years old is way too late to start that.

I have two kids and four guns in the house, two of which belong to my older son, age 13.

[thespianphryne]

There are knives in every kitchen. Deadly frikkin' weapons by any stretch. Kids know to stay the hell away from them and not handle them. Kitchen knives are rarely locked away securely.

Comes down to education and appreciating the gravity of consequences. 8 year-olds understand these things. Education, the right attitude in the way you handle your guns and talk about them and sensible precautions - that's all you need.

[StoneGold]

There's also a difference between learning gun safety, and teaching your kid enough to allow him to drop you and your friend. The thread seems to be devolving into you can either teach your kid to be a sniper, or he can never see a gun, ever. There are many degrees within that.

[Shellhead]

The Boy Scouts could have a Sharpshooting badge.

[Slam_Bradley]

The Boy Scouts could have a Sharpshooting badge.

The Scouts have both rifle and shotgun shooting merit badges.

My son has been in two different 4-H groups for shooting. One for air guns and a shotgun group.

[Loren]

I feel that cars and guns are equally dangerous in the wrong hands. As a society, we have decided that kids shouldn't be allowed to drive until they are in their late teens, and they shouldn't drive alone until passing a test to demonstrate basic knowledge and proficiency. Why should guns be any different?

I would emphasize here that as a society, we've only placed such age restrictions on driving to the extent that the driving is on public roads. If your family has a pasture and an ATV, there's nothing stopping you from letting your 8-year old loose to tool around solo on your property.

Conversely, while there's nothing restricting use of firearms by minors on private property, society takes a slightly different view if you want to let an 8-year old pack heat in a public area.

[Serik]

Yes, if said father is competent with firearms and doesn't glorify them to an impressionable son. When I was young, around 10 or so, my father only let me shoot .22 caliber handguns. It wasn't until I was 13 or 14 that I started shooting rifles and shotguns.

I also think hunting is the best way of teaching someone how powerful and dangerous a gun can be. One second the animal is alive, clear in your sights, and the next second it's dead. And you're the one responsible for killing it.

[J. Robb]

If you do things right your children should never face that situation in YOUR home. I personally own 30 + guns and they all have trigger locks, are placed in a combination gun safe with the bullets in a separate safe inside a locked closet inside a locked at all times room and they go out my office entrance to my car so they never leave that room. My children would have to be Batman to even see a gun in my home.
I will never have a gun in my house, but if I did, I'd make sure there's no way kids can ever get to them. Even good kids make mistakes, you don't want them to make a mistake with a gun.

[EZMOHR]

I will never have a gun in my house, but if I did, I'd make sure there's no way kids can ever get to them. Even good kids make mistakes, you don't want them to make a mistake with a gun.

So, as a parent, if you have a gun, you may want to teach them not to use them...or not keep it at home, because that subject is gonna come up with kids and a gun in the house.

Listen, I've got a way different job, and relationship with guns to that due to my job, than anyone here. I can't not talk about it, because my kids (save the two babies) know...Dad's got guns, and those guns are in the house most of the time. It would make me an awful parent if I just hoped they stayed away from the guns w/o me talking to them about them. If guns are around, and you don't discuss them, and what they can, and will do when used right and when used wrong...you aren't being a parent. And my guns and the bullets with them are harder to get into than Fort Knox.

[EZMOHR]

Yes, if said father is competent with firearms and doesn't glorify them to an impressionable son. When I was young, around 10 or so, my father only let me shoot .22 caliber handguns. It wasn't until I was 13 or 14 that I started shooting rifles and shotguns.

I also think hunting is the best way of teaching someone how powerful and dangerous a gun can be. One second the animal is alive, clear in your sights, and the next second it's dead. And you're the one responsible for killing it.

I have 6 girls and 1 boy (granted the boy and one girl are less than 5 months old), and none have shown an interest at all in hunting. (The only thing I hunt are Pheasant, Quail, and Dove.) Most likely, none will. Yet, I still have guns. I have to go around the hunting motive (although 4 of my kids have taken hunter safety courses) and I have taken them to the range w/me and a range master to show the effects. I haven't and won't show them pictures I have of what a gun does...because that IMO is not productive.

[Lord of Denial]

You can teach your children about gun safety and to treat them with respect without teaching them how to shoot one.

[EZMOHR]

You can teach your children about gun safety and to treat them with respect without teaching them how to shoot one.

I can dig that. But, what you can't do is just hope the subject doesn't come up if you have them.

[StoneGold]

I can dig that. But, what you can't do is just hope the subject doesn't come up if you have them.

No, but much like the molestation, that wasn't really the issue. The question wasn't about should an eight-year-old learn about guns, but should an eight-year-old learn how to shoot?

[EZMOHR]

No, but much like the molestation, that wasn't really the issue. The question wasn't about should an eight-year-old learn about guns, but should an eight-year-old learn how to shoot?

Okay, I saw the molestation new blurg yesterday, and I don't know where...but I did see it, it was there.

Second, it is case by case. If hunting, shooting, whatever is something an 8 year olds family wants to teach him...by all means he wouldn't be the first or the last. It is case by case.

But, again, this case isn't that. This kid has issues be it mental or environmental. This case has nothing to do with whether an 8 year old should be allowed to shoot a gun. This is way deeper than that.

[thespianphryne]

No, but much like the molestation, that wasn't really the issue. The question wasn't about should an eight-year-old learn about guns, but should an eight-year-old learn how to shoot?

Sure why not? How else is she going to win an Olympic gold medal?

But seriously: it's all context. Depending on where I lived and how, I would be fine with teaching an 8 year old how to shoot. For example, in NYC, there's really no need for my kid to know how to shoot. In the mountains of New Mexico where my nearest neighbour is 8 to 10 miles away down the slope or on the other side of it, I might be teaching the kid how to supplement the winter meat.

Context is everything.


-Das

[Lord of Denial]

No, but much like the molestation, that wasn't really the issue. The question wasn't about should an eight-year-old learn about guns, but should an eight-year-old learn how to shoot?

8 years old to me is to young to have knowledge on how to use a lethal weapon.

But not to young to know what they should do if they encounter one and not to young to know they should be treat with respect.

[Lord of Denial]

Sure why not? How else is she going to win an Olympic gold medal?

But seriously: it's all context. Depending on where I lived and how, I would be fine with teaching an 8 year old how to shoot. For example, in NYC, there's really no need for my kid to know how to shoot. In the mountains of New Mexico where my nearest neighbour is 8 to 10 miles away down the slop or on the other side of it, I might be teaching the kid how to supplement the winter meat.

Context is everything.


-Das

Does a bullet know context when the gun accidentally goes off?

[Dreadstar]

The question wasn't about should an eight-year-old learn about guns, but should an eight-year-old learn how to shoot?

Frankly, I believe that in order to properly learn about guns, you have to learn to shoot. So I don't make any distinction between the two points.

[Your Imaginary Pal]

Didn't read the article, but I'll answer the question with yes.
Yes I believe it's alright to teach a young child how to use a gun.
I was taught to use a gun when I was 6. Told how dangerous it was and all that stuff. It was in a summer camp run by the family. We learned Archery, Shooting(rifles) fishing and horseback riding.

[Lord of Denial]

Didn't read the article, but I'll answer the question with yes.
Yes I believe it's alright to teach a young child how to use a gun.
I was taught to use a gun when I was 6. Told how dangerous it was and all that stuff. It was in a summer camp run by the family. We learned Archery, Shooting(rifles) fishing and horseback riding.

Cool a summer camp where they teach you to be The Lone Ranger.

[StoneGold]

Okay, I saw the molestation new blurg yesterday, and I don't know where...but I did see it, it was there.

Second, it is case by case. If hunting, shooting, whatever is something an 8 year olds family wants to teach him...by all means he wouldn't be the first or the last. It is case by case.

But, again, this case isn't that. This kid has issues be it mental or environmental. This case has nothing to do with whether an 8 year old should be allowed to shoot a gun. This is way deeper than that.

I'm sure you heard molestation connected to the case somehow, but I'm guessing it was more someone saying that in cases like this, molestation is often involved. Which is different than saying investigators say there was molestation involved.


And really, if you were going to make a case for not teaching an eight-year-old how to shoot, the kid popping himself in the head at the gun show earlier this month is a better example. And even then, more of a lesson not to teach an eight-year-old how to shoot an Uzi.

[EZMOHR]

I'm sure you heard molestation connected to the case somehow, but I'm guessing it was more someone saying that in cases like this, molestation is often involved. Which is different than saying investigators say there was molestation involved.


And really, if you were going to make a case for not teaching an eight-year-old how to shoot, the kid popping himself in the head at the gun show earlier this month is a better example. And even then, more of a lesson not to teach an eight-year-old how to shoot an Uzi.

No, it came from the police saying they were looking into the angle. Man, I wish I could find it now...

[StoneGold]

No, it came from the police saying they were looking into the angle. Man, I wish I could find it now...

And even if that was what you actually heard, it is very different from what you originally posted, which is that investigators were saying molestation was involved.

[EZMOHR]

And even if that was what you actually heard, it is very different from what you originally posted, which is that investigators were saying molestation was involved.

All I can say is, can't find the article no matter what, so yeah, I can't defend what I saw....

In that case, 8 year old kids just don't shoot people the way this kid did unless they have something wrong with them, or something bad happened courtesy of the people they did the deed too. Just the way I feel about this subject.

[StoneGold]

All I can say is, can't find the article no matter what, so yeah, I can't defend what I saw....

In that case, 8 year old kids just don't shoot people the way this kid did unless they have something wrong with them, or something bad happened courtesy of the people they did the deed too. Just the way I feel about this subject.

I agree with you on the last bit. This is a case wherethis boy shouldn't have been taught how to shoot. Like I said, the kid with the Uzi is a better example of why kids shouldn't be taught how to shoot, and even then, more of a case of why kids shouldn't be taught to shoot Uzis.

[thespianphryne]

Does a bullet know context when the gun accidentally goes off?

Does a pool know water safety when a kid drowns?

Accidental drowning is the one of the largest killer of kids in the US outside of automobile accidents. And at home: it's probably the largest killer apart from choking from small toy parts. But please let's dial up the emotional rhetoric without ever taking into account personal responsibility.


-Das

[Slam_Bradley]

Frankly, I believe that in order to properly learn about guns, you have to learn to shoot. So I don't make any distinction between the two points.


A distinction with out a meaningful difference. Kind of like teaching water safety...without water.

[Shellhead]

Frankly, I believe that in order to properly learn about guns, you have to learn to shoot. So I don't make any distinction between the two points.


What about sex ed? They had an amusing scene along those lines in that Monty Python movie The Meaning of Life.

[Lord of Denial]

Does a pool know water safety when a kid drowns?

Accidental drowning is the one of the largest killer of kids in the US outside of automobile accidents. And at home: it's probably the largest killer apart from choking from small toy parts. But please let's dial up the emotional rhetoric without ever taking into account personal responsibility.


-Das

How is what I said discounting personal responsibility?

When a gun accidentally goes off it does not know why you taught your kid to shoot a gun. Context have nothing to do with the accidents that can happen.

[Black Atom]

I'm not sure I support that view. I can teach my kid not to pull a hot pot off the stove without splashing him with boiling water or not to pick up a knife without showing him how to stab someone. Unless the expectation is that the little rascal's eventually going to get his hands on a gun somehow, I don't see why they need to know how to fire a gun to understand the inherent dangers of one.

[Crowforge]

I wouldn't and I wouldn't want my kids around a kid with access to a gun.

[thespianphryne]

How is what I said discounting personal responsibility?

When a gun accidentally goes off it does not know why you taught your kid to shoot a gun. Context have nothing to do with the accidents that can happen.

Exactly the point: this is an issue because there's a child involved. You think adults don't have gun accidents?


-Das

[thespianphryne]

I wouldn't and I wouldn't want my kids around a kid with access to a gun.

And so you're not going to. Done.

The question now becomes: are we going to prejudicially judge those families that do.


-Das

[Gilda Dent]

I won't have a gun in my home, so it's not an issue for my household, so it isn't an issue for us, but I don't object to others having guns and it isn't my place to tell others how to deal with this issue in their homes.

As to the OP, I wouldn't teach an eight-year-old or a child of any other age to shoot, but that's my personal choice regarding the children in my home. I'm not responsible for making that decision for other parents.

[thespianphryne]

I won't have a gun in my home, so it's not an issue for my household, so it isn't an issue for us, but I don't object to others having guns and it isn't my place to tell others how to deal with this issue in their homes.

As to the OP, I wouldn't teach an eight-year-old or a child of any other age to shoot, but that's my personal choice regarding the children in my home. I'm not responsible for making that decision for other parents.

But, Gilda, somebody's going to have to take responsibility if something goes wrong. Who will you blame? And you have to decide now before the specifics of any case are ever made clear to you. Choose now or you're a terrible person.

[Shellhead]

You think adults don't have gun accidents?


You mean Dick Cheney didn't shoot that attorney intentionally? ;)

[Crowforge]

And so you're not going to. Done.

The question now becomes: are we going to prejudicially judge those families that do.


-Das
I'm not prejudging it, I'm disapproving of it. I'm also waiting to see why he may have shot them but he certainly couldn't have shot them if he didn't know where the gun was and or if it was locked up.

[thespianphryne]

I'm not prejudging it, I'm disapproving of it. I'm also waiting to see why he may have shot them but he certainly couldn't have shot them if he didn't know where the gun was and or if it was locked up.

Absolutely. But him knowing to shoot the gun, then, isn't the issue. It's that he had what seems to be unrestricted access to. At the very least the gun wasn't secure.

I'm not a big fan of allowing children access to dangerous tools or weapons of any kind,and compared to a lot of potentially lethal things in any household, a gun is dangerous in a very immediate and specific way. But let me tell you this. any kid who knows how to play cops and robbers knows the basic principle behind a gun: there's a trigger, you pull it and the bullet comes out and kills the person it's pointed at. What they don't know is recoil and accidental discharge and trigger sensitivity. But they might if they're educated.

If this kid had rage issues, even if he didn't know how to handle a gun but knew where the gun was, he might still have shot his father.

But you know what: hypothetical, all of it. We don't know the facts of the case.

[Gilda Dent]

But, Gilda, somebody's going to have to take responsibility if something goes wrong. Who will you blame? And you have to decide now before the specifics of any case are ever made clear to you. Choose now or you're a terrible person.

That's the problem with making blanket statements. A loaded .38 left on the coffee table is a lot different from one with a trigger lock kept in a gun safe with the ammunition kept separate. Where do you draw the line? I don't know. It's not really my business to decide that for others.

I look at as being like having a pool. An in-ground pool with a toddler in the house is asking for trouble. If you take reasonable precautions, such as a fence around the pool area with a locked gate, teaching the child to swim as soon as she's able to take lessons, draining and covering the pool when not in season, etc., you can minimize the risks.

It's part of being a parent, being aware of the risks posed by any number of things, objects or activities, and taking steps to ensure that kids are prepared to deal with those that do pose a risk in a healthy and informed manner.

The simplest and most effective is not to have a gun or a pool, which is the choice we made, but I'm not going to be telling others they don't have the right, or really the responsibility, to make those choices for their own children and their own households.

[Gordon Smith]

I will never have a gun in my house, but if I did, I'd make sure there's no way kids can ever get to them. Even good kids make mistakes, you don't want them to make a mistake with a gun.

Be thankful you didn't grow up in my house where we left the firearms lying around like we were the Beverly Hillbillies. Maybe we just got lucky, but we never had an accident.

[howyadoin]

Be thankful you didn't grow up in my house where we left the firearms lying around like we were the Beverly Hillbillies. Maybe we just got lucky, but we never had an accident.Nobody drowned in the ce-ment pond either, then?

[Beni]

My answer to the question is definitely "no"!

[Shellhead]

My answer to the question is definitely "no"!

So you think that a mother should teach a small child how to shoot a gun? ;)

[mgs]

sure, why not? But I don't think guns are the problem here.

[MacQuarrie]

Yes it is to young for an 8 year old to learn to use a gun, they don't have the emotional restraint or ability to understand the responsibility and consequences that come along with a using a firearm.

My kids could handle a rifle at age 8. 8 isn't too young. The problem is you have to heavily emphasize safety, safety, safety over and over, every time you shoot.

Grab a full soda can and shoot it, watch it explode and then remind the kids that it wouldn't be fun to have that happen to them.

Enforce very strict handling procedures while shooting. Be a regular drill instructor about it. They will do fine.

Hell, I teach 4-year-olds to use a bow and arrow, and they manage to understand the safety rules. Kids aren't stupid. They just need to be informed about cause-and-effect.

[mikekerr3]

How is what I said discounting personal responsibility?

When a gun accidentally goes off it does not know why you taught your kid to shoot a gun. Context have nothing to do with the accidents that can happen.

If the person holdng the gun when it accidentally goes off has learned the basci gun safety concept " the there is no such thing as an unloaded gun" It is much less likely to be pointed at a person.

[Gary_B]

To the real question. I have a job where I have weapons (and being a SWAT team member, I have a lot.) Guns, whether I like it or not, will be a part of my families life. I have 6 girls and 1 boy that need to know what guns can do. I have no problem showing my children how to shoot a gun, and how to handle one effectivly and extremely safe, so they do not decide to just grab one out of my safe, and learn on their own. And, I find if you take the mystery out of a gun for a youngster...they really aren't that interesting to them.

Good for you. Thousands of dead American children over the last few decades probably had less gun aware or responsible parents.


I feel that cars and guns are equally dangerous in the wrong hands. As a society, we have decided that kids shouldn't be allowed to drive until they are in their late teens, and they shouldn't drive alone until passing a test to demonstrate basic knowledge and proficiency. Why should guns be any different? And if guns are really different, what is an appropriate age for kids to start handling guns? Obviously infants should not be handling guns. What about toddlers? Kindergarten? First grade? What is a reasonable minimum age?

Excellent point. Kids with guns. That the fuck?


I learned about guns before Kindergarten. It depends. If you aren't around them as a kid...and you won't be....why worry about them. If you are child that lives under the same roof as a gun....you aren't meeting your parental duties if you just hide it and hope the kids don't find it or want to know what it does. There is no set age really...just what is comfortable for the parent.

To be honest with you, no one should drive a car until their 21 in my opinion...but that is a different issue.

Kids should be exposed to guns at any age but they should get past voting age before they can drive a car? I don't follow.

Cars kill more people in the US than guns do every year but the margin isn't huge. One of those devices is occasionally used as a weapon to intentionally kill people and the other usually is. If it were up to me there would be more restrictions on the more kill oriented of the two.


This goes to the age debate. Emotion maturity and age are mutually exclusive. I know many 8 year olds that are more responsible that many 16 year olds. As for shooting a gun, I think 8 even in the best case scenario is too young for a child to learn how to fire a gun and use it a regular basis, but they are never to young to learn about the dangers and responsibility of gun use.

I agree that a child is never too young to learn about the dangers and responsibilities of gun use but that doesn't mean that an 8 year old should be handed one. Watch dad shoot a gun? Okay, if you really think that's necessary. Hand junior a gun to shoot? Not so much.


I agree with you and I feel a child learns more from a knowledgeable gun owning parent. Especially if he or she has a good attitude towards other people--

Example: if a man who owns a gun comes home and says, " yeah these butt holes give me trouble today, they are lucky i didnt have my gun with me. That influences a child more than a thousand gun safety sermons. You are right children are smarter than we think. They learn how to act by watching what we do, not by what we say.

Exactly! Any fool can have a kid with no restrictions or qualifications. Why should they automatically be given the right to expose their kids to potentially dangerous and deadly weapons? Kids are required to sit in the car and learn by mom and dad's example for sixteen years before they can even start learning under supervision how to drive.


My dad had a .22 rifle in the house while I was growing up. He never showed me how to handle it, just told me to leave it alone. One time when I was 11, when my parents weren't around, I got the rifle out of the closet and showed it to my best friend. We didn't point it at each other or anything really stupid, and after looking at it, we put it back without disaster. A year later, my uncle took me out to the shooting range a couple of times, and taught me some basic gun safety. As I look back, it disappoints me that my dad didn't handle gun ownership more responsibly.

I suppose cars are different, in that most gun owners aren't getting their guns out and carrying them around every day, but most car owners are driving every day. And in the process of driving, they are encountering a lot of other drivers each day.

All good points that suggest to me that guns and cars require a similar level of maturity to be handled responsibly, yet one requires universally accepted age requirements and the other doesn't.

[Gary_B]

Exactly the point: this is an issue because there's a child involved. You think adults don't have gun accidents?


-Das

American domestic dispute statistics suggest that adults have accidents with guns all over the place.

[EZMOHR]

I hate to tell you gary, but a car is more dangerous than a gun IMO. I think most people who handle a gun under the age of 21 LEGALLY are more carefull with that weapon, than they are when they drive. Or to put it another way......

I've met a lot of bad driver's over the age of 21 in my day. I've met more under the age of 21, and there are less of them.

[schwamp]

Without scanning the whole thread,(hope someone else didn't say this already), the conversation seems to lean towards gun safety policy, but it will always be about parenting, for me. It is too broad to say what age is appropriate for exposure to guns. There can be no example of capable responsibility without some equal example of tragedy, such as this one. My Dad always owned guns, and I never tried to sneak a look or mess with them because he put it in no uncertain terms what a danger it could be. I like to think I had the sense to figure he was right, and left it at that. Someone else in the same situation that doesn't have the same sense or restraint is going to mess around and ventilate themselves or someone else. There are too many variables to be able to legislate it fairly. Since laws are basically punitive, it probably means that improving gun safety equals more stringent gun ownership laws that, more than likely, hurt honest gun owners more than anyone else.

[StoneGold]

Mmmm, egg guns...


http://www.popgadget.net/images/gun-egg-fryers.jpg

[J. Robb]

When should kids be taught how to handle grenades?

[howyadoin]

When should kids be taught how to handle grenades?Soon as they can throw one far enough to not blow themselves up.

[Aaron Kashtan]

Should four- to eight-year-old children be taught to handle lightsabers?

http://www.wizards.com/swtcg/images/jg/Jedi_Youngling.jpg

[Steward Ace]

We might have noticed in the preceding posts that in several instances, the exposure to guns came when the kids were among friends rather than in the home. As a dad, I'm going to be damn sure my son as a healthy respect for firearms so that he knows what to do when his friend produces his dad's .38. I want him to know that it's not a toy and make sure he's seen the effects of a gun. And, because he's going to do things I'm going to disapprove of regardless of what I say, I want him to know how to handle a gun safely, and that means exposing him to guns fairly early in life.

I know I'm a responsible gun owner, but I can't trust the rest of the world. So I change the little parts that I can.

[Paradox]

Lord of Denial mistakes:

Yes it is to young for an 8 year old to learn to use a gun, they don't have the emotional restraint or ability to understand the responsibility and consequences that come along with a using a firearm.

"Leaning how" and "Have free unfettered access to" are two entirely different things.

[CrossoverManiac]

There are hundreds of thousands of children that learn how to shoot and even hunt with their parents. They shouldn't be punished for the handful of cases of gun volence.

[Shellhead]

There are hundreds of thousands of children that learn how to shoot and even hunt with their parents. They shouldn't be punished for the handful of cases of gun volence.

Handful? You mean like 4-5 cases per year? You must be living on Earth-2.

[K'Nort]

We might have noticed in the preceding posts that in several instances, the exposure to guns came when the kids were among friends rather than in the home. As a dad, I'm going to be damn sure my son as a healthy respect for firearms so that he knows what to do when his friend produces his dad's .38. I want him to know that it's not a toy and make sure he's seen the effects of a gun. And, because he's going to do things I'm going to disapprove of regardless of what I say, I want him to know how to handle a gun safely, and that means exposing him to guns fairly early in life.

I know I'm a responsible gun owner, but I can't trust the rest of the world. So I change the little parts that I can.

I think that's a really crucial thing that many parents miss.

If you're not going to own guns, you're not done.

Your children will be exposed to them in other homes and it's still your responsibility to ensure they're prepared for that.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Handful? You mean like 4-5 cases per year? You must be living on Earth-2.

4-5 cases a year isn't a lot. Sure, every one is tragic, but the number you're talking is a statistically insignificant one compared to the many minors that learn to use guns responsibly every year.

Keep in mind, a lot more than 4-5 people die each year slipping and falling in their bathtubs or in home power tool accidents, but nobody is saying people shouldn't bathe or be allowed to own power tools.

I am not personally very fond of guns -don't own one, don't plan to unless I end up living in a significantly high-crime area for some reason at some point in the future - but I have been around guns my whole life. Growing up in rural Iowa, just about every boy - and not a small percentage of the girls - learned at least rudimentary firearms stuff. I knew lots of people that hunted as boys and teens. Interestingly, the entire time I grew up, there were four firearms-related deaths I was aware of in my area - an area full of guns, mind you. None were caused by young kids. One was suicide, by a teen, another was an adult suicide. Another was a murder, and the final one was a hunting accident, in which one adult shot another accidentally (it was rumored one or both were also drunk while out hunting). All the kids I knew with guns, not one ever had any problems or got in any trouble with them, other than the one fellow who committed suicide (this was when I was in 5th grade or so, and he was in high school).

[K'Nort]

You'd think people in this state would be used to guns too, but deer hunting season opened this week and it only took 90 minutes for the first fatality.

[Gordon Smith]

Another was a murder, and the final one was a hunting accident, in which one adult shot another accidentally (it was rumored one or both were also drunk while out hunting).

Something like this happened to a friend of mine. He was out hunting, everyone in his party was plastered and the guy managed to plug himself in the leg with his .22. varmint rifle. Fortunately, it was only a minor wound, so he recovered quickly. After I heard about that little incident, I never went hunting with the guy or his pals again.

[StoneGold]

4-5 cases a year isn't a lot. Sure, every one is tragic, but the number you're talking is a statistically insignificant one compared to the many minors that learn to use guns responsibly every year.

Keep in mind, a lot more than 4-5 people die each year slipping and falling in their bathtubs or in home power tool accidents, but nobody is saying people shouldn't bathe or be allowed to own power tools.

I am not personally very fond of guns -don't own one, don't plan to unless I end up living in a significantly high-crime area for some reason at some point in the future - but I have been around guns my whole life. Growing up in rural Iowa, just about every boy - and not a small percentage of the girls - learned at least rudimentary firearms stuff. I knew lots of people that hunted as boys and teens. Interestingly, the entire time I grew up, there were four firearms-related deaths I was aware of in my area - an area full of guns, mind you. None were caused by young kids. One was suicide, by a teen, another was an adult suicide. Another was a murder, and the final one was a hunting accident, in which one adult shot another accidentally (it was rumored one or both were also drunk while out hunting). All the kids I knew with guns, not one ever had any problems or got in any trouble with them, other than the one fellow who committed suicide (this was when I was in 5th grade or so, and he was in high school).

Actually, I think Shellhead was going in an opposite direction with that, saying that it's actually more than a handful a year. In other words, I'm pretty sure you missed the sarcasm. Although I will defer to my honorable colleague if I am mistaken.

[Winslow]

4-5 cases a year isn't a lot. Sure, every one is tragic, but the number you're talking is a statistically insignificant one compared to the many minors that learn to use guns responsibly every year.....

My reading is that 4-5 cases a year is grossly under-estimated.

I'm betting accidental deaths of children caused by firearms is in the 100s in the USA.

Here's some facts form 8 years ago:


In 2000, 174 children (0-18) in the United States died from unintentional firearm-related injuries. Unintentional injuries are usually caused when children play with guns or are hunting.

Unintentional injuries from firearms represent less than two percent of all firearm deaths in the U.S. But of this two percent, children and adolescents are involved in 55% of these deaths. The majority of the injuries occur to children playing with or showing the weapons to friends. The easy availability of firearms is believed to be the number one risk factor for unintentional firearm deaths.

http://www.childdeathreview.org/causesAF.htm

[JeffreyWKramer]

Actually, I think Shellhead was going in an opposite direction with that, saying that it's actually more than a handful a year. In other words, I'm pretty sure you missed the sarcasm. Although I will defer to my honorable colleague if I am mistaken.

It's a very small percentage of overall deaths, and of deaths among firearems households, regardless.

Should gun owners be careful, and should those with kids in the home be especially cautious of safety issues? Absolutely. Do the numbers of deaths, or this particular incident, warrant this "oh, it's terrible to let kids handle guns" stuff? Not at all.

Given the percentages of serious injuries and deaths caused compared to the number of minors involved in the activities in question, I'd be much more concerned about the risks of high school football and Golden Gloves boxing than I would guns, personally. And no, I'm not calling chicken little on either of those activities, either.

[JeffreyWKramer]

My reading is that 4-5 cases a year is grossly under-estimated.

I'm betting accidental deaths of children caused by firearms is in the 100s in the USA.

Here's some facts form 8 years ago:



http://www.childdeathreview.org/causesAF.htm

Those ones are particularly tragic, because they probably often do reflect irresponsibility by the parents, either in terms of not keeping their weapons secured or not teaching the kids appropriate respect for them.

If anything, they argue in favor of the idea that kids should be taught how to handle guns, though, rather than arguing against it. Kids taught to handle guns responsibly would be much less likely to have incidents like those ones.

[J. Robb]

If anything, they argue in favor of the idea that kids should be taught how to handle guns, though, rather than arguing against it. Kids taught to handle guns responsibly would be much less likely to have incidents like those ones.
The reason I don't like the idea of teaching kids how to handle a gun is because, while they may be responsible most of the time, kids get into social situations where they make bad decisions. If one kid pulls out his dad's gun to show off, the kid who's been shown how to use a gun may want to show off their skills as well.

I'd rather kids be completely uncomfortable around guns and not want to be anywhere near them.

[K'Nort]

I'd rather kids be completely uncomfortable around guns and not want to be anywhere near them.

If you don't teach them anything about guns, that's not going to be their response.

[Paradox]

"What is your fascination with my Forbidden Closet of Mystery?"

[J. Robb]

If you don't teach them anything about guns, that's not going to be their response.
Teaching them not to touch guns is still teaching them.

[Shellhead]

Logically, the next step is to teach kids to fast-draw. What's the point of having a gun to defend yourself if the bad guys can draw faster and shoot you while you're still trying to clear the holster? And for you homeowners who allegedly have your weapons all locked and trigger-guarded and whatnot, do you still feel safe? That gun-toting burglar can drop you dead on the spot while you're still fumbling with combinations. ;)

[CrossoverManiac]

Teaching them not to touch guns is still teaching them.

You mean like the gods teaching Pandora not to touch The Box.

Teaching them about guns should include making guns familiar enough to demystify them.

[Gilda Dent]

I'd rather kids be completely uncomfortable around guns and not want to be anywhere near them.

I'd make this "my kids", as I'm not responsible for the safety of other people's kids*, but otherwise this is how I feel. Teach them that guns are dangerous, not toys, not to be played with.

*With the obvious exceptions of in my home, when they've been left in my care, when the children are in a shared common area, and the moral obligation to report suspected abuse or neglect.

[Gilda Dent]

You mean like the gods teaching Pandora not to touch The Box.

First, Pandora's box is a myth.

Second, it's not a good analogy. Pandora didn't know what was in the box when she opened it. Had she known that it contained all the evil in the world, ie, that it was dangerous and that was why she wasn't supposed to touch it, the outcome might have been different.

[MacQuarrie]

The reason I don't like the idea of teaching kids how to handle a gun is because, while they may be responsible most of the time, kids get into social situations where they make bad decisions. If one kid pulls out his dad's gun to show off, the kid who's been shown how to use a gun may want to show off their skills as well.

I'd rather kids be completely uncomfortable around guns and not want to be anywhere near them.
That will make them act irrationally and fearfully if anyone should happen to whip one out, which will dramatically increase their liklihood of getting shot. Not to mention that the overwhelming majority of accidental shootings (and a good portion of the deliberate ones) are caused by people who are uncomfortable around and unfamiliar with guns.

It's just a piece of machinery, no more dangerous than a circular saw or power drill. Fear is never helpful.

[howyadoin]

That will make them act irrationally and fearfully if anyone should happen to whip one out, which will dramatically increase their liklihood of getting shot.I'm 45, and not once in my entire life has anybody ever whipped a gun out in my presence.

[MacQuarrie]

Logically, the next step is to teach kids to fast-draw. What's the point of having a gun to defend yourself if the bad guys can draw faster and shoot you while you're still trying to clear the holster? And for you homeowners who allegedly have your weapons all locked and trigger-guarded and whatnot, do you still feel safe? That gun-toting burglar can drop you dead on the spot while you're still fumbling with combinations. ;)

Slippery slope arguments are nearly always specious.

False assumptions abound here.

The overwhelming majority of gun owners are not the slightest bit interested in carnival tricks like fast-draw. They just aren't, because that kind of showboating tends to detract from safety, which should always be a primary concern.

The vast majority of burglars are unarmed, since (a) they favor homes where nobody is home, an d(b) possession of a gun in the commission of a crime greatly increases the penalties if caught, while providing very little benefit. Guns for home defense are to protect against other kinds of criminals.

[MacQuarrie]

I'm 45, and not once in my entire life has anybody ever whipped a gun out in my presence.

Happens a lot in my neighborhood.

[MacQuarrie]

I'm 45, and not once in my entire life has anybody ever whipped a gun out in my presence.

Actually, you're most often likely to look down the business end of one when it's being held by a cop. The ability to maintain your composure at that point is vital.

[howyadoin]

Happens a lot in my neighborhood.I've been in crackhouses and not seen guns. Could it just be that the U.S. and Canada are different cultures when it comes to firearms?

[howyadoin]

Actually, you're most often likely to look down the business end of one when it's being held by a cop.That's never happened either. The closest I've ever come to a confrontation with a cop was getting a ticket for running a stop sign when I was in high school.

[MacQuarrie]

My reading is that 4-5 cases a year is grossly under-estimated.

I'm betting accidental deaths of children caused by firearms is in the 100s in the USA.

Here's some facts form 8 years ago:



http://www.childdeathreview.org/causesAF.htm
That site has some interesting data:

Selected Causes of Death, Ages 0-19, per 100,000 Population (2003)
Cause Number of Deaths Mortality Rate
Unintentional Injury 12,035 14.8
Motor Vehicle 7,677 9.5
Drowning 1,062 1.3
Fire/Burn 551 0.7
Poisoning 650 0.8
Suffocation/Strangulation 910 1.1
Firearm 151 0.2

[MacQuarrie]

I've been in crackhouses and not seen guns. Could it just be that the U.S. and Canada are different cultures when it comes to firearms?

Very much so.

My point is simply that instilling fear of inanimate objects is absurd and dangerous; it's much better to teach children responsible behavior while at the same time exercising it yourself.

[Gilda Dent]

I'm 45, and not once in my entire life has anybody ever whipped a gun out in my presence.


That's never happened either. The closest I've ever come to a confrontation with a cop was getting a ticket for running a stop sign when I was in high school.

Same here. I grew up in rural Minnesota and Missouri. I've seen guns being taken to and from hunting trips, but never seen one brandished in a threatening manner.

A cop takes out his gun, I'm going to do the same thing I'd do if he didn't have it out, which is whatever he or she tells me to do.

[MacQuarrie]

Same here. I grew up in rural Minnesota and Missouri. I've seen guns being taken to and from hunting trips, but never seen one brandished in a threatening manner.

A cop takes out his gun, I'm going to do the same thing I'd do if he didn't have it out, which is whatever he or she tells me to do.

Exactly. It's a lot easier to do that if you aren't freaking out about the gun.

[J. Robb]

That will make them act irrationally and fearfully if anyone should happen to whip one out, which will dramatically increase their liklihood of getting shot. Not to mention that the overwhelming majority of accidental shootings (and a good portion of the deliberate ones) are caused by people who are uncomfortable around and unfamiliar with guns.

It's just a piece of machinery, no more dangerous than a circular saw or power drill. Fear is never helpful.
I wouldn't teach young kids how to use a circular saw or power drill either. I'm not saying they should panic and wet their pants at the sight of them- just don't touch them and stay away from anyone who is playing with one.

[Gilda Dent]

Exactly. It's a lot easier to do that if you aren't freaking out about the gun.

I don't know about that. Is knowing how guns work and how to handle one going to make having one pointed at you in a threatening manner any less scary? I'm not going to be the one handling the gun, so knowing how to handle it is irrelevant at this point. Knowing what it can do to me if it is used against me is, and I know that already.

[MacQuarrie]

I wouldn't teach young kids how to use a circular saw or power drill either. I'm not saying they should panic and wet their pants at the sight of them- just don't touch them and stay away from anyone who is playing with one.

Certainly you want to be age-appropriate. Little kids can't physically control a power tool, or a gun for that matter. But at the point when they can, it's better to teach them how to handle one responsibly and safely than to just hope they obey your prohibition.

"It's easier to put on shoes than to carpet the world."

[MacQuarrie]

I don't know about that. Is knowing how guns work and how to handle one going to make having one pointed at you in a threatening manner any less scary? I'm not going to be the one handling the gun, so knowing how to handle it is irrelevant at this point. Knowing what it can do to me if it is used against me is, and I know that already.

Having a healthy respect for the destructive power of the thing is good. Having an irrational fear of it and no real idea of what it can do is something else entirely. I know people who have been raised that way, and they go into a panic at the mere sight of one, regardless of context.

[Gilda Dent]

Having a healthy respect for the destructive power of the thing is good. Having an irrational fear of it and no real idea of what it can do is something else entirely. I know people who have been raised that way, and they go into a panic at the mere sight of one, regardless of context.

Ah, but there's a middle ground between healthy respect and irrational fear. I think of it as a rational fear. It's reasonable to be afraid of the damage that can be done by a gunshot.

[howyadoin]

I'm not seeing the power drill comparison. Even if it's cordless, you couldn't hurt me with it unless you were standing next to me.

[MacQuarrie]

I'm not seeing the power drill comparison. Even if it's cordless, you couldn't hurt me with it unless you were standing next to me.

True. but it could do just as much damage as a gun at close range, like, say, a kid playing with it. A gun (or power drill or car keys) lying on a table can't do any damage at all until somebody picks it up.

[MacQuarrie]

Ah, but there's a middle ground between healthy respect and irrational fear. I think of it as a rational fear. It's reasonable to be afraid of the damage that can be done by a gunshot.
Of course.

I've had the experience of looking down the barrel of a gun while police searched my car in the mistaken belief that I was armed. It was pretty scary. I think it would have been a good deal more scary if I had a fear of guns in general. I was, frankly, more scared of the cop than the gun. The gun wasn't going to shoot me by itself. Knowing that, I was able to concentrate on the cop and make sure I didn't give him any reason to get jumpy. If I'd been obsessing about the gun, I might not have been able to do that, and the newspaper could very well have run a nice little article about the guy that was gunned down by an officer who thought the guy was armed.

[Gilda Dent]

Of course.

I've had the experience of looking down the barrel of a gun while police searched my car in the mistaken belief that I was armed. It was pretty scary. I think it would have been a good deal more scary if I had a fear of guns in general. I was, frankly, more scared of the cop than the gun. The gun wasn't going to shoot me by itself. Knowing that, I was able to concentrate on the cop and make sure I didn't give him any reason to get jumpy. If I'd been obsessing about the gun, I might not have been able to do that, and the newspaper could very well have run a nice little article about the guy that was gunned down by an officer who thought the guy was armed.

I'm not going to dispute your personal experience, but I do think being afraid of being shot by a police officer would be more likely to increase the chance of my complying with the officer's instructions than decrease it.

[Gilda Dent]

True. but it could do just as much damage as a gun at close range, like, say, a kid playing with it. A gun (or power drill or car keys) lying on a table can't do any damage at all until somebody picks it up.

I find power tools a little scary, too, and I grew up in a series of households where there was always a set of them in the basement or garage. I was told not to use them because they were dangerous, so I never used them and as a result never got hurt by them.

[Steward Ace]

I find power tools a little scary, too, and I grew up in a series of households where there was always a set of them in the basement or garage. I was told not to use them because they were dangerous, so I never used them and as a result never got hurt by them.

My dad is a big DIY guy, and as long as I can remember he's had the same tablesaw, a big metal monster with everything adjustable and the safety guard removed. It took until about 8 years ago for me to tell him I was never working with him in the garage again while that thing was running.

If any can figure out my point and tie it into this discussion, I'd appreciate it.:confused:

[Gilda Dent]

My dad is a big DIY guy, and as long as I can remember he's had the same tablesaw, a big metal monster with everything adjustable and the safety guard removed. It took until about 8 years ago for me to tell him I was never working with him in the garage again while that thing was running.

If any can figure out my point and tie it into this discussion, I'd appreciate it.:confused:

Power tools were being used as a metaphor for guns and the responsibility of gun owners to teach their kids proper gun safety.

To tie your anecdote into the main discussion, this would be like your dad having a gun, but your never wanting to be around when he was using it.

[MacQuarrie]

I find power tools a little scary, too, and I grew up in a series of households where there was always a set of them in the basement or garage. I was told not to use them because they were dangerous, so I never used them and as a result never got hurt by them.
Yes, but on the other hand, you were denied the ability to put them to work for you. I've done a significant portion of the remodeling work on my house myself, and saved thousands of dollars and had the satisfaction of making sure it's done the way I want to because I know how to use these things. I've never been hurt by them either. Which is my point.

When my kids were toddlers, I made sure they knew not to touch the stove. At some point they had to learn to cook, and the stove was no longer forbidden, but it continued to be hot and dangerous. It's a parent's job to equip their kids to deal with dangerous situations. Knowledge is always preferable to fear.

[Gilda Dent]

Yes, but on the other hand, you were denied the ability to put them to work for you. I've done a significant portion of the remodeling work on my house myself, and saved thousands of dollars and had the satisfaction of making sure it's done the way I want to because I know how to use these things. I've never been hurt by them either. Which is my point.

When my kids were toddlers, I made sure they knew not to touch the stove. At some point they had to learn to cook, and the stove was no longer forbidden, but it continued to be hot and dangerous. It's a parent's job to equip their kids to deal with dangerous situations. Knowledge is always preferable to fear.

Of course, but the ability to prepare food is a basic life skill. I wouldn't put woodworking in the same category, especially in today's society where an expert who can do the job much better than I could is a phone call away.

[Steward Ace]

Power tools were being used as a metaphor for guns and the responsibility of gun owners to teach their kids proper gun safety.

To tie your anecdote into the main discussion, this would be like your dad having a gun, but your never wanting to be around when he was using it.

Exactly. And to this day, I feel much safer with a rifle than I do a table saw, but I see a lot more kids around their dad's workshop than I do rummaging through a gun safe.

[Gilda Dent]

Exactly. And to this day, I feel much safer with a rifle than I do a table saw, but I see a lot more kids around their dad's workshop than I do rummaging through a gun safe.

Fair enough.

My point has been that as a parent without guns or a workshop in the house, it isn't my responsibility to teach my children how to safely use guns or powertools. Basic safety, as in, "They're dangerous, so hands off," sure, but so long as I do that part of it adequately, instruction in proper use becomes irrelevant. You don't have to know how to use something if you're not going to be using it.

[Steward Ace]

Fair enough.

My point has been that as a parent without guns or a workshop in the house, it isn't my responsibility to teach my children how to safely use guns or powertools. Basic safety, as in, "They're dangerous, so hands off," sure, but so long as I do that part of it adequately, instruction in proper use becomes irrelevant. You don't have to know how to use something if you're not going to be using it.

I can see you're point of view, and I actually agree with it, but I can't help thinking that accidents happen because of unfamiliarity and we don't have enough control over our kids' friends. But on the other hand, I grew up in a fairly suburban area where seeing a gun was a real oddity, and my parents forbade me to see the kids whose parents had guns in the car or unsafely around the house. Controlling the child's enviroment is as important as educating the child.

[Rabid Trekkie]

Fair enough.

My point has been that as a parent without guns or a workshop in the house, it isn't my responsibility to teach my children how to safely use guns or powertools. Basic safety, as in, "They're dangerous, so hands off," sure, but so long as I do that part of it adequately, instruction in proper use becomes irrelevant. You don't have to know how to use something if you're not going to be using it.

Actually, depending on your kid's friends, it may become important. Personal (and possibly irrelevant) anecdote time:

While I often partake in these gun threads, I myself have never fired one. My father though did teach me about them, and would show me the .22 pistol he keeps to teach me basic gun safety. He also taught me about my paternal grandmother's shotgun, it was one of those long double barreled ones like Granny had on the Beverly Hillbillies, such as how to open it and put the safety on, etc.
Well one day (I was about 9) I'm at my Grandmother's house, while she went to the store, with my brother and sister and my little cousin. While my siblings and I are watching TV, I hear something metal fall in the back room. When I go back there, my little cousin has just picked the shotgun off the floor and starts waving it around. Then he points it at me. I stayed calm, convinced my cousin not to pull the trigger and got him to hand me the gun. I couldn't reach up into the closet where the shotgun was supposed to go, so I put the safety on and just to make sure nothing else would happen, opened the gun up. The plan was to put something in the hinge so it couldn't be closed (my aunt and grandma had plenty of broken wire curlers that would have worked perfectly to keep the gun opened and let my Dad deal with getting the wires out of the hinges later) but the two metallic pings I heard on the floor kind of changed my plans. Turns out the shotgun was loaded. Went ahead and screwed up the shotgun anyway and then ran out of the room and threatened my cousin within an inch of his life.
If my Dad wouldn't have taught me about guns, my brother or sister or cousin could have gone back in there and put a hole in the wall or someone. First and only time I saw my Dad yell at my Grandma also but that's another story. So even if you don't have guns it may be a good idea to take the kids to a shooting range and teach them the basics anyway.

[Shellhead]

Guns for home defense are to protect against other kinds of criminals.

What other kinds of criminals are likely to break into your home? Burglars and maybe rapists, and the likelihood of either being armed seems similar to me. I'm poking fun at the mentality of somebody who feels safe because they own a couple dozen pistols and rifles, but ironically have them all trigger-locked and/or locked up in a safe. How long will it take that homeowner to get ahold of a loaded gun in an actual emergency?

[Shellhead]

I've been in crackhouses and not seen guns. Could it just be that the U.S. and Canada are different cultures when it comes to firearms?

I've only been in a crackhouse once. The one guy that definitely had a gun was the dealer, and he didn't pull it out when we got in a shoving match. Somebody standing behind him warned me that he had a gun, so I backed off. I probably could have clocked him with the tire iron I was holding before he drew his gun, but after one intense moment, I decided that wasn't a good idea.

[Puma]

What other kinds of criminals are likely to break into your home? Burglars and maybe rapists, and the likelihood of either being armed seems similar to me. I'm poking fun at the mentality of somebody who feels safe because they own a couple dozen pistols and rifles, but ironically have them all trigger-locked and/or locked up in a safe. How long will it take that homeowner to get ahold of a loaded gun in an actual emergency?

I don't have kids, I don't use safety locks. Most of my guns are locked up in a secure spot but I keep one out for emergencies. When a strange man tried to enter my cabin when I lived in a remote area you can bet that shotgun was out and ready in a heartbeat.



and the strange man took off quick when he saw the barrel.

[Gilda Dent]

Actually, depending on your kid's friends, it may become important. Personal (and possibly irrelevant) anecdote time:

While I often partake in these gun threads, I myself have never fired one. My father though did teach me about them, and would show me the .22 pistol he keeps to teach me basic gun safety. He also taught me about my paternal grandmother's shotgun, it was one of those long double barreled ones like Granny had on the Beverly Hillbillies, such as how to open it and put the safety on, etc.
Well one day (I was about 9) I'm at my Grandmother's house, while she went to the store, with my brother and sister and my little cousin. While my siblings and I are watching TV, I hear something metal fall in the back room. When I go back there, my little cousin has just picked the shotgun off the floor and starts waving it around. Then he points it at me. I stayed calm, convinced my cousin not to pull the trigger and got him to hand me the gun. I couldn't reach up into the closet where the shotgun was supposed to go, so I put the safety on and just to make sure nothing else would happen, opened the gun up. The plan was to put something in the hinge so it couldn't be closed (my aunt and grandma had plenty of broken wire curlers that would have worked perfectly to keep the gun opened and let my Dad deal with getting the wires out of the hinges later) but the two metallic pings I heard on the floor kind of changed my plans. Turns out the shotgun was loaded. Went ahead and screwed up the shotgun anyway and then ran out of the room and threatened my cousin within an inch of his life.
If my Dad wouldn't have taught me about guns, my brother or sister or cousin could have gone back in there and put a hole in the wall or someone. First and only time I saw my Dad yell at my Grandma also but that's another story. So even if you don't have guns it may be a good idea to take the kids to a shooting range and teach them the basics anyway.

That sounds like it must have been scary, and it's a good thing you were there to prevent a disaster.

I wouldn't have done any yelling, but my kids would never have visited that particular home again.

I don't dispute that things like this can happen, which is part of the reason I won't have a gun in the house, aside from the bigger reason that easy access to a gun makes a bad companion to a long history of depression.

That said, I think the chance of my daughter coming across an unsecured, loaded gun in someone else's house is rather small, and the chances of her needing to know how to disable a firearm to prevent harm to someone else are too small to be worth worrying about. I think we'll be fine with the basic "Leave it alone, tell an adult" training.

I suspect there's a greater chance of her being hit by a car while walking or being driven to a friend's house or being seriously injured or killed in a household accident than being shot accidentally at one.

[CrossoverManiac]

First, Pandora's box is a myth.

It's a story that illustrates a truth. That it's human nature to do something that is forbidden.


Second, it's not a good analogy. Pandora didn't know what was in the box when she opened it. Had she known that it contained all the evil in the world, ie, that it was dangerous and that was why she wasn't supposed to touch it, the outcome might have been different.

Teenagers know that drugs (marijuana, cigarettes, alcohol, etc) is bad for them but they do them anyway. It's frustrating to see high school students smoking and drinking but it shows that forbidding something doesn't stop from doing it.

[schwamp]

What other kinds of criminals are likely to break into your home? Burglars and maybe rapists, and the likelihood of either being armed seems similar to me. I'm poking fun at the mentality of somebody who feels safe because they own a couple dozen pistols and rifles, but ironically have them all trigger-locked and/or locked up in a safe. How long will it take that homeowner to get ahold of a loaded gun in an actual emergency?

Having a gun is no guarantee that you will be able to protect yourself with it. The difference is that you definitely can't use a gun you don't have if you need it and can actually prepare in time. If you have been picked out to be a victim of a crime, you will probably not be able to stop it. Nobody is going to put a piece under their pillow and sleep with one eye open all the time. Police officers are equipped and prepared for violence in their line of work. They have a weapon ready to go at their hip. Still, police are killed in the line of duty every year. Since your point seems to question whether private gun ownership can prevent crimes in peoples homes, I would assert that it is better to have the option than not.

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

my parents and uncle taught all of us...born and bred in the west but my family roots are in the rural south east