Chris Kent's convoluted history

[Rix]

Forgive me for bringing up such an old subject. I have been very behind on my Supes comics but have been trying to catch up for the New Krypton storyline. I think it started with the delays of the "Last Son" storyline. I figured I would wait until the whole thing was finished, since its hard to remember where a story was at months previous and I would much rather read a multi part story in a more condensed time period.

Anyway, my attempt was to read these things in something close to chronological order.

I finished the "Last Son" storyline in Action Comics and although I liked it, I didn't really feel Superman's pain with the loss of Chris. I mean, we didn't really get a chance to know him during the story.

Then I moved onto Camelot Falls (which started great but went downhill) in the Superman books. Every once in awhile they would mention Chris. Hmmmm, this must have taken place sometime after they found him but before they walked him into the Daily Planet for the first time (In Last Son).

Then I went onto the Bizzaro story, then onto the beginning of Third Kryptonian. Hey, Chris is still around! He meets Batman and Robin. (He actually did mention he met Robin at the end of Last Son).

Problem is... How could he have? The first part of Third Kryptonian also mentions a recent "Legion" adventure. Well, that happens in the next arc of Action, which I haven't gotten to yet. But by this time, in Action, Chris has got to be long gone. Of course the final part of LS (the annual) hadn't come out yet because of crazy delays.

Anyway, its impossible to make it all fit. I mean, when Lois and Clark walk Chris into the Daily Planet, Supes gets attacked, thrown into the Phantom Zone and then the story doesn't let up until Chris does the big exit.

So how did all this other stuff happen?

I guess the Busiek over at Supes assumed Chris would be around after the Last Son storyline? How could this be, don't the creators at least talk to each other?

Its a shame because, I actually got to know Chris a little bit better in the other issues and I got to like him... I just can't make his appearances fit. I know the crazy delays are a big part of the problem, but what I end up with is a continuity that looks like a big mess!

I guess maybe I should have read the stuff as it came out. Then, I might've forgotten the details. Was anyone else frustrated by this? Can anyone make sense of it?

Anyway, I've got the rest of Third Krytponian, then Legion, and Braniac to go before I can get into the New Krypton story. Since they are bringing back the triangles for it, maybe it will fit together better that the last year and a half!

[CBikle]

My gut instinct is that DC considers Chris Kent a mistake and he'll either be forgotten (like May Parker) or briefly return, just before he's killed off or sent to live in Kandor.

I think people thought that both Chris and Superman Returns would have been much better received than they were.

[PastePotPete]

Then I went onto the Bizzaro story, then onto the beginning of Third Kryptonian. Hey, Chris is still around! He meets Batman and Robin. (He actually did mention he met Robin at the end of Last Son).

Problem is... How could he have?

From wikipedia:
Due to the pronounced scheduling problems with the release of the "Superman: Last Son" storyline, a line of dialogue in Action Comics Annual #11 is incorporated ("I even got to meet Robin.") which insinuates that the invasion of Zod's army takes place after Chris receives his red-sun watch, which places the events of Superman #664, 668, and 673 and all of Christopher Kent's other appearances chronologically between panels of Action Comics #846 (despite the fact that the latter was released earlier).

To explain the discrepancy, editor Matt Idelson theorized in an interview that "after the last panel of Issue #846, Page 9, Clark, Lois and Chris stepped out for lunch. Several weeks passed by, during which Clark and Lois struggled with raising Chris, Chris went to school, met Robin, helped the 3rd Kryptonian, etc., and then, on an off-day from school, Chris, Clark and Lois happened to all wear the same outfits they were wearing on Page 9 of #846 (they're extremely organized, methodical people, and Chris imitated his "parents") and took another trip to mom and dad's office, wherein Zod attacked."[8]

Chris Kent was a mistake. Superman Returns was a mistake. Not surprising that the comics that come out of both ideas are riddled with mistakes!

[Mat001]

Here's how it breaks down. You read "Up, Up & Away", then "Back In Action". After that is Action Comics #844 and 845. In 845, after Clark and Lois formally adopt Chris, the story then takes a break. During which time "Camelot Falls", "Redemption", "Back In Action", "The Tornado Path", "The Lightning Saga", "The Four Horsemen", "The Sinestro Corps War", "The Third Kryptonian" and "Shadowlands" all take place during this period. Then we pick back up with the last four pages of Action Comics #845 and go on through all of #846, 847, 851 and Action Comics Annual #11. Then it's "Escape From Bizarro's World", "Superman & The Legion Of Super-Heroes", "Injustice League", "Salvation Run", Action Comics #865 and 866, "Atlas", Supergirl #34,"Jimmy Olsen Special", "Adventure Comics", Action Comics #867 through 870 and then "New Krypton".

Chris Kent was a mistake. Superman Returns was a mistake. Not surprising that the comics that come out of both ideas are riddled with mistakes!

Chris has nothing to do with "Superman Returns". He was an idea of Geoff Johns and Richard Donner. They were not aware of the full plot for that film.

My gut instinct is that DC considers Chris Kent a mistake and he'll either be forgotten (like May Parker) or briefly return, just before he's killed off or sent to live in Kandor.

I think people thought that both Chris and Superman Returns would have been much better received than they were.

Again, nothing to do with each other. And no, he's not forgotten. Johns had always planned for Chris to be sent back into the Phantom Zone in order to stop the Zoners. His appearences in Buisek's run had to do with not revealing his final fate and because they had to address him with regards to Karsta. Johns has also stated that Chris will be returning within the next year or so.

[Rix]

Thanks for the responses, guys. I actually did not mind the Chris Kent storyline. At least it was new and different. I mean, I wouldn't want to see every Superman comic feature the kid. But it puts Lois and Clark in some new situations and actually features some character growth.

Can you guess I didn't like the erasure of the Spider-marriage?

Anyway, I guess I should have come to you guys first to get the new and improved reading order!

[d newton]

The first part of Third Kryptonian also mentions a recent "Legion" adventure.
Which page / panel of Superman 668 was that adventure mentioned?

[CBikle]

Chris has nothing to do with "Superman Returns". He was an idea of Geoff Johns and Richard Donner. They were not aware of the full plot for that film.


That's really hard to believe; so both Singer and Johns/Donner independently came up with the Chris Kent idea ?

[DeadXMan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytqV6GEHW24


say no to Chris and yes to Kon

[dreyga2000]

Was Chris Kent really that hated? I was under the impression that most people didn't really mind him...

I liked the kid... thought his introduction felt natural... Was only brought up when he was needed or for the occasional cameo...He wasn't forced in later storylines or high-jacked the title (liked Flash's kids) yet still held a presence... Thought they hit the right balance... I was actually slightly dissappointed to see him go... I thought he going to be a mainstay change up the Clark/Lois dynamic...

Was I the only one? (besides Rix)

[Vidocq]

That's really hard to believe; so both Singer and Johns/Donner independently came up with the Chris Kent idea ?

One was concieved by interspecies sex and called Jason White, Also believed to be human all his life and was born and raised by Lois Lane and Perry White's nephew or something like that.

The Other Was conceived by two Kryptonians and is called Lor Zod by his Biological Parents and Christopher Kent by his Adoptive Parents, Known to be Kryptonian all along even by the Government, born in the Phantom Zone and Raised by Gen Zod, Ursa and maybe also Non.

They aren't the same Character. The only thing they have in common is that they are both Superman's son.

Honestly I like the Character of Chris Kent, I even like the name how is Honoring the memory of Chirstopher Reeve.

He isn't like May Parker because Superman wasn't created as an Teen hero like Spider-man, he is more like Franklin Richards (But without the neglect).

And God Knows he is better than Batman's little Bastard...

[Mat001]

That's really hard to believe; so both Singer and Johns/Donner independently came up with the Chris Kent idea ?

Donner said not too long ago that he didn't want to know the whole story of "Superman Returns" when he and Bryan Singer talked about, several years ago. He had wanted to see it with fresh eyes in the theater. The only thing in common, as mentioned, was that they the son of Superman. One biologically and one by adoption and that both stories used elements from the Donner material. They both touched upon similar themes, but had different outcomes.

[Sean Whitmore]

Was Chris Kent really that hated? I was under the impression that most people didn't really mind him...

My memory could be faulty, but I don't remember an excess of negativity towards the kid when he was around. I think the way "Last Son" was botched makes it easier to dismiss the entire story, Chris and all, in retrospect. And I certainly couldn't blame anyone for that.


SEAN

[Xybernauts]

So is there any room for a kid in Superman's life or is that just taboo in Superman comics? I think Batman pulled off giving Bruce Wayne a kid. I think Damien is well liked, if I'm not mistaken. Batman has a kid, but someone else is raising him. So if the DCU ever does give Kent a kid does he have to be a villian/antihero to be accepted or does someone else need to raise him?

[Rix]

Which page / panel of Superman 668 was that adventure mentioned?

Sorry, my mistake. It was in the Supes Annual #13 (the wrap up of the Camelot Falls storyline) on page 4 The Phantom Stranger mentions "Your time with the Legion of Super-Heroes."

Anyway, that would mean the next story "Third Krypt" takes place after the Legion issues which would mean that Chris was still around for the Legion issues???

Could be PS was referring to some other time with the Legion, I dunno.

[Rix]

So if the DCU ever does give Kent a kid does he have to be a villian/antihero to be accepted or does someone else need to raise him?

I think none of the above. I think the dynamic was just fine with the way they were already using the kid. That's not to say that they couldn't really botch it up in the future, but as far as I'm concerned, he hadn't overstayed his welcome.

If Lois and Clark can't have a biological kid, then an adopted son would seem to be a great solution, especially given Clark's own history.

This could also make up for some of the loss Clark must be experiencing given the deaths of Connor and Jonathan.

[Mat001]

Sorry, my mistake. It was in the Supes Annual #13 (the wrap up of the Camelot Falls storyline) on page 4 The Phantom Stranger mentions "Your time with the Legion of Super-Heroes."

Anyway, that would mean the next story "Third Krypt" takes place after the Legion issues which would mean that Chris was still around for the Legion issues???

Could be PS was referring to some other time with the Legion, I dunno.

Here's what is said.

Superman: "Is that true, Stranger? It'll end this way no matter what we do?"

The Phantom Stranger: "As to that...it is difficult to say, Superman. All futures are merely possibilities, to one standing in the past. They branch out -- Utopian futures of all shapes and kinds. You have seen some of these futures. Your time with the Legion of Super-Heroes, for one."

He was refering to the fact that Superman has been to the future on more than one occassion. He has even seen different futures depicted, such as "DC 1 Million" and "Time & Time Again". "Camelot Falls" takes place as I mentioned earlier. The back-up story from the Annual takes place after "The Third Kryptonian", since part three was originally supposed to be in the Annual, but was pushed to the main book to keep it on schedule, while the finale of CF ended there. In the back-up story, Kara mentions using Karsta's garden to make the dinner that they were having, a Kryptonian dish. Something Clark has never had the chance to sample.

So is there any room for a kid in Superman's life or is that just taboo in Superman comics? I think Batman pulled off giving Bruce Wayne a kid. I think Damien is well liked, if I'm not mistaken. Batman has a kid, but someone else is raising him. So if the DCU ever does give Kent a kid does he have to be a villian/antihero to be accepted or does someone else need to raise him?

Having a marriage is one thing. Some comics tend to either shy away from it or find a way to undo it. Having kids is considered worse. This is why Franklin Richards was aged and shipped off to the future. Same with Nathan Summers becoming Cable. DC is willing to let Clark be married to Lois, but having children, they've been gun shy on that issue. This is why Johns went back and contradicted Rucka's story, by stating that it would be almost impossible for a Kryptonian DNA to sufficently match up to an Earthwoman's DNA. Chris was to play with that idea. The whole arc, along with Action #850, showed us how much Clark wishes he wasn't the last of his kind. Which then sets us up for "Brainiac" and then "New Krypton". Everything Johns and Busiek had set up from 2006 on, was about that.

[lawman]

...Anyway, my attempt was to read these things in something close to chronological order.

I finished the "Last Son" storyline in Action Comics and although I liked it, I didn't really feel Superman's pain with the loss of Chris. I mean, we didn't really get a chance to know him during the story.

Then I moved onto Camelot Falls (which started great but went downhill) in the Superman books. Every once in awhile they would mention Chris. Hmmmm, this must have taken place sometime after they found him but before they walked him into the Daily Planet for the first time (In Last Son).

Then I went onto the Bizzaro story, then onto the beginning of Third Kryptonian. Hey, Chris is still around! He meets Batman and Robin. (He actually did mention he met Robin at the end of Last Son).
So far, so good. But...

Problem is... How could he have? The first part of Third Kryptonian also mentions a recent "Legion" adventure.
It does? Where? I don't remember that (and I just re-skimmed the issue to check).

But even if there is such a reference, might it not be to the earlier Legion crossover in JLA and JSA, rather than the later one in Action?
[Edited to add: okay, I see this has been addressed.]

In which case, problem (kind of) solved.

I guess the Busiek over at Supes assumed Chris would be around after the Last Son storyline? How could this be, don't the creators at least talk to each other?

Its a shame because, I actually got to know Chris a little bit better in the other issues and I got to like him... I just can't make his appearances fit. I know the crazy delays are a big part of the problem, but what I end up with is a continuity that looks like a big mess!
I liked him, too, at least as handled by Kurt. But yeah, it was a big mess. Even editor Matt Idelson couldn't really make plausible sense of it, as demonstrated here (http://www.supermanhomepage.com/inter-action/inter-action.php?topic=ask-editor/ask-matt-0408). We just have to assume all of Chris's appearances in Superman occurred during an invisible continuity break in Action #846.

[Kurt Busiek]

He was refering to the fact that Superman has been to the future, on more than one occassion.

That, and as established in ACTION 850 and (I think) in the "Superman & the Legion" arc, young Clark had a flight ring and used to visit with his Legion pals.

Nothing the Stranger says refers to a recent adventure, merely that Superman is aware, through past experience, that there are a multiplicity of futures.

kdb

[jerrymcl89]

Having a marriage is one thing. Some comics tend to either shy away from it or find a way to undo it. Having kids is considered worse. This is why Franklin Richards was aged and shipped off to the future. Same with Nathan Summers becoming Cable. DC is willing to let Clark be married to Lois, but having children, they've been gun shy on that issue.

The obvious problem with kids is that either they don't grow up, or they age the adult characters. I thought Chris Kent worked just fine in the stories he appeared in, but that would still be a problem, given that neither Batman nor Superman is ever going to hit forty.

[lawman]

That, and as established in ACTION 850 and (I think) in the "Superman & the Legion" arc, young Clark had a flight ring and used to visit with his Legion pals.

Nothing the Stranger says refers to a recent adventure, merely that Superman is aware, through past experience, that there are a multiplicity of futures.
Wow, straight from the horse's mouth there! Gotta love it when that happens.

(Not that Kurt would deny the whole "Last Son" arc could have been handled a bit more elegantly, I suspect.)

Now let's ask him how Trinity fits into things! :biggrin: (I'm really enjoying Trinity, BTW, just for the record. It's redeeming the idea of weekly comics again, after what happened with Countdown.)

[Kurt Busiek]

Not that Kurt would deny the whole "Last Son" arc could have been handled a bit more elegantly, I suspect.

I don't think anyone would deny that.

But I didn't write, draw, edit or publish "Last Son" -- I just did my stuff based on what plans were and what was requested of me at the time. Plans changed due to schedule disaster thereafter, but so it goes. What I worked with was accurate when I worked with it...

Now let's ask him how Trinity fits into things! :biggrin:

It's more or less self-contained, and not a building block in the other big events going on.

If you're asking where it fits into the timeline, then the best way to figure that stuff out is after the stories in question are complete and you can compare them without spoilers being involved.

I'm really enjoying Trinity, BTW, just for the record. It's redeeming the idea of weekly comics again, after what happened with Countdown.

Glad you're enjoying it, officer!

kdb

[lawman]

[Trinity's] more or less self-contained, and not a building block in the other big events going on.

If you're asking where it fits into the timeline, then the best way to figure that stuff out is after the stories in question are complete and you can compare them without spoilers being involved.
Figured as much, and I wasn't really asking for any spoilers. It's almost always easier to figure out how to wedge various stories together after they're done.

(Although what you're doing with Hawkman, at least, does seem potentially to intersect with what Jim Starlin and/or Geoff Johns are doing with him, allowing for how difficult it can be to discern clear information from the various hints dropped by Dan DiDio.)

BTW (and apologies to all for the inadvertent threadjacking)... was it a deliberate clue of some sort, or just an editorial SNAFU, when you referred to Prince Khufu's artifact as dating to Egypt's 4th Dynasty in a recent issue? The 4th Dynasty Pharaoh Khufu (aka Cheops) was an historical figure (and in comics was impersonated by Vandal Savage), but he's always been distinct from the fictional Khufu-who-became-Hawkman, who's generally been depicted as living the better part of two millennia later.

[Rix]

Wow, been away from the thread for a few days and look who I missed!

Kurt, if you are still reading... Whether Chris easily fits into the continuity or not, I am grateful for what you've done with him. It was your fleshing out of him and his relationship with the Kents that makes his departure more powerfully felt.

It also occurs to me that if Geoff and co. had finished the Last Son story without delays, there would have been a lot less time to get to know Chris.

I guess I should have read the books as they came out as opposed to letting them stack up and then tying to read the arcs all at once.

Anyway, I'm still playing catch up and so I'm getting toward the end of your run I just finished the Insect Queen 3 parter which had more great stuff with Chris. I actually got a little misty during the last couple of pages. That hasn't happened in quite awhile!

I never thought the "kid" worked in the movie (I thought they painted themselves into a corner), but at least for me, you really made a "son" of Lois and Clark work in the books, even though it was Johns who introduced him to us.

Thanks for that. I've got a feeling I'm gonna miss your work when I get to the end of your run.

[Kurt Busiek]

BTW (and apologies to all for the inadvertent threadjacking)... was it a deliberate clue of some sort, or just an editorial SNAFU, when you referred to Prince Khufu's artifact as dating to Egypt's 4th Dynasty in a recent issue? The 4th Dynasty Pharaoh Khufu (aka Cheops) was an historical figure (and in comics was impersonated by Vandal Savage), but he's always been distinct from the fictional Khufu-who-became-Hawkman, who's generally been depicted as living the better part of two millennia later.

Probably just an error -- I had no idea the DC Khufu and the historical Khufu are supposed to be two different guys, so I just looked up Khufu to find the right dynasty.

If it's supposed to be a different one, let me know the right dynasty and I'll put it on the list for TPB corrections...

kdb

[Kurt Busiek]

It also occurs to me that if Geoff and co. had finished the Last Son story without delays, there would have been a lot less time to get to know Chris.

If it had been finished without delay, it would have ended differently.

But the other stories Chris was planned to be a part of had already happened, also differently, so they went on to the next stage of his story.

Anyway, I'm still playing catch up and so I'm getting toward the end of your run I just finished the Insect Queen 3 parter which had more great stuff with Chris. I actually got a little misty during the last couple of pages. That hasn't happened in quite awhile!

Thanks!

kdb

[lawman]

Kurt, if you are still reading... Whether Chris easily fits into the continuity or not, I am grateful for what you've done with him. It was your fleshing out of him and his relationship with the Kents that makes his departure more powerfully felt.

It also occurs to me that if Geoff and co. had finished the Last Son story without delays, there would have been a lot less time to get to know Chris.
Good points, and I couldn't agree more.

[lawman]

Probably just an error -- I had no idea the DC Khufu and the historical Khufu are supposed to be two different guys, so I just looked up Khufu to find the right dynasty.

If it's supposed to be a different one, let me know the right dynasty and I'll put it on the list for TPB corrections...
Very reasonable of you. It should be the 19th Dynasty, as stated in JSA #22 back in 2001. That's the story in which time-traveling JSAers meet not only Prince Khufu but also Nabu and Mighty Adam (later Black Adam)... and Adam got his powers from Shazam during the reign of Rameses II ("the great"), according to Power of Shazam #10, so it all fits together. Thirteenth century BCE, roughly 14 centuries or so after the historical Khufu.

(I don't know whether Goyer and Johns intended it, but this connection also makes Prince Khufu a half-brother of Teth Adam, since Ordway had described Teth-Adam as one of the pharaoh's many sons.)