Super man's death

[JoelM]

How many times has Super Man died?

[Lester C.]

0. He didn't actually "die" when he fought Doomsday but went in a coma because he solar energy reserves had been depleated.

[stealthwise]

0. He didn't actually "die" when he fought Doomsday but went in a coma because he solar energy reserves had been depleated.

Nope, he actually died. He went to the afterlife and everything until his Pa helped bail him out. His body physically died, but was resuscitated by the solar energy reserves, The Eradicator, and the robots in the Fortress of Solitude.

[Mat001]

Pre-Crisis Earth-1 Superman has never died. Only in imaginary stories and that was like, once or twice. Post Crisis Superman has died only once, officially. His body shut down, but his soul had left it so he was dead. Earth-2 Superman, aka Kal-L died in "Infinite Crisis". Any other version that died, was either from the Pre-Crisis Imaginary Stories or the Elseworlds versions.

[dancj]

Superman (along with the rest of the JLA) also died in the lame Obsidan Age story in Joe Kelly's JLA run.

[Sean Walsh]

.....Super Man? :confused:

I never knew the space was allowed...

[Lorendiac]

0. He didn't actually "die" when he fought Doomsday but went in a coma because he solar energy reserves had been depleated.

Nope, he actually died. He went to the afterlife and everything until his Pa helped bail him out. His body physically died, but was resuscitated by the solar energy reserves, The Eradicator, and the robots in the Fortress of Solitude.

I've seen this argument come up before -- the question of "Did he 'really die' when he fought Doomsday in 1992, or was he just 'almost dead'?"

Some time ago I took the trouble to reread Doctor Occult's explanation of just what the heck had been going on with Clark's soul and body lately, and I wrote the following post to summarize:

********** OLD POST BEGINS ***********

I got interested in this and decided to double-check my recollection of Doctor Occult's lecture on the subject by digging out "Action Comics #692."

First, I'll put you to sleep with a quick explanation of why the Doctor's lecture is not as well-known among modern Superman fans as it should be!

I was buying the four core Superman titles during the time when four guys with S-symbols on their chests (the Cyborg Superman, the Eradicator calling himself the Last Son of Krypton, Superboy, and Steel) were all running wild, and I kept buying them as the real Superman came back and reclaimed his title, and so forth. So I bought "Action Comics #692" when it first came out in 1993, and it wasn't until years later that I examined a copy of the TPB collection called "The Return of Superman" and realized that the last few pages of that TPB only reprinted approximately the first half of the story that was originally published in "Action Comics #692." The first half shows us how Lois and Clark rigged it up for Superman to publicly rescue "Clark Kent" from where he'd been in a caved-in basement for the last month or two, so as to explain how it was that Superman and Clark both just happened to be coming back "from the dead" (presumed death, in Clark's case) at about the same time. That part is in the TPB collection.

But the second half of the story includes Doctor Occult's explanation to Lois & Clark of just how it is that Superman did, in fact, return to the land of the living. That part has never been reprinted in any TPB to the best of my knowledge, so any fan who doesn't actually have a copy of "Action Comics #692" in his collection is basically out of luck!

I'll just quote a couple of the highlights here . . .

DOCTOR OCCULT (speaking to Lois as he shows her Clark's dead body as it was several weeks earlier):
Believe me, I didn't want to put you through this . . . but it was necessary for you to understand just how close he came to final, irreversible departure. Make no mistake, his spirit had fled his body. The energies stored within the body preserved it temporarily -- still, sealed off in that tomb, it would eventually have perished, and then, there could have been no return.

From there, Doctor Occult gives various other details, and then Lois asks a follow-up question.

LOIS:
So are you saying . . . if Superman is ever about to . . . to die again . . . all we have to do is make sure he gets plenty of sun--?

DOCTOR OCCULT:
No, it's not that simple. Superman was very lucky . . . this time. Never forget, his spirit had left the body. A whole chain of events -- physical and metaphysical -- combined with things both of the Earth and of Krypton to restore him to life . . . and some of those elements no longer exist. Your will to live is strong, Superman, but your resurrection is not a repeatable phenomenon. You are mortal, and someday you will die . . . as must we all.

Then, as Doctor Occult says a few last words, basically wishing them luck, he teleports them to a spot near the Kent family farm in Kansas, so that Clark can see his foster parents again for the first time since his death. Then the story really ends. (I guess they were running out of pages in that extra-thick TPB "The Return of Superman" and decided to trim out the last half of "Action Comics #692" on the theory that the lecture wasn't really all that important anyway?)

So Occult was basically saying (paraphrased in my own words): "Yes, you were dead. Yes, your spirit went off on its own -- and left your body behind to receive a funeral and be placed in a tomb. Yes, there was still some energy left in your corpse, however, and yes, that came in handy when your spirit fought its way back into your body. Yes, you were finally able to rise from the dead and gradually start recovering your strength and all that jazz. But you were very, very, very lucky that several weird factors had all piled up just the way you needed them to -- you'd be incredibly foolish if you assumed that it will all work out that way again, the next time you get yourself killed!" :smile:

[Xybernauts]

I've seen this argument come up before -- the question of "Did he 'really die' when he fought Doomsday in 1992, or was he just 'almost dead'?"

Some time ago I took the trouble to reread Doctor Occult's explanation of just what the heck had been going on with Clark's soul and body lately, and I wrote the following post to summarize:

********** OLD POST BEGINS ***********

I got interested in this and decided to double-check my recollection of Doctor Occult's lecture on the subject by digging out "Action Comics #692."

First, I'll put you to sleep with a quick explanation of why the Doctor's lecture is not as well-known among modern Superman fans as it should be!

I was buying the four core Superman titles during the time when four guys with S-symbols on their chests (the Cyborg Superman, the Eradicator calling himself the Last Son of Krypton, Superboy, and Steel) were all running wild, and I kept buying them as the real Superman came back and reclaimed his title, and so forth. So I bought "Action Comics #692" when it first came out in 1993, and it wasn't until years later that I examined a copy of the TPB collection called "The Return of Superman" and realized that the last few pages of that TPB only reprinted approximately the first half of the story that was originally published in "Action Comics #692." The first half shows us how Lois and Clark rigged it up for Superman to publicly rescue "Clark Kent" from where he'd been in a caved-in basement for the last month or two, so as to explain how it was that Superman and Clark both just happened to be coming back "from the dead" (presumed death, in Clark's case) at about the same time. That part is in the TPB collection.

But the second half of the story includes Doctor Occult's explanation to Lois & Clark of just how it is that Superman did, in fact, return to the land of the living. That part has never been reprinted in any TPB to the best of my knowledge, so any fan who doesn't actually have a copy of "Action Comics #692" in his collection is basically out of luck!

I'll just quote a couple of the highlights here . . .

DOCTOR OCCULT (speaking to Lois as he shows her Clark's dead body as it was several weeks earlier):
Believe me, I didn't want to put you through this . . . but it was necessary for you to understand just how close he came to final, irreversible departure. Make no mistake, his spirit had fled his body. The energies stored within the body preserved it temporarily -- still, sealed off in that tomb, it would eventually have perished, and then, there could have been no return.

From there, Doctor Occult gives various other details, and then Lois asks a follow-up question.

LOIS:
So are you saying . . . if Superman is ever about to . . . to die again . . . all we have to do is make sure he gets plenty of sun--?

DOCTOR OCCULT:
No, it's not that simple. Superman was very lucky . . . this time. Never forget, his spirit had left the body. A whole chain of events -- physical and metaphysical -- combined with things both of the Earth and of Krypton to restore him to life . . . and some of those elements no longer exist. Your will to live is strong, Superman, but your resurrection is not a repeatable phenomenon. You are mortal, and someday you will die . . . as must we all.

Then, as Doctor Occult says a few last words, basically wishing them luck, he teleports them to a spot near the Kent family farm in Kansas, so that Clark can see his foster parents again for the first time since his death. Then the story really ends. (I guess they were running out of pages in that extra-thick TPB "The Return of Superman" and decided to trim out the last half of "Action Comics #692" on the theory that the lecture wasn't really all that important anyway?)

So Occult was basically saying (paraphrased in my own words): "Yes, you were dead. Yes, your spirit went off on its own -- and left your body behind to receive a funeral and be placed in a tomb. Yes, there was still some energy left in your corpse, however, and yes, that came in handy when your spirit fought its way back into your body. Yes, you were finally able to rise from the dead and gradually start recovering your strength and all that jazz. But you were very, very, very lucky that several weird factors had all piled up just the way you needed them to -- you'd be incredibly foolish if you assumed that it will all work out that way again, the next time you get yourself killed!" :smile:

That's some very interesting info, but it doesn't really clear up the argument. It does clarify whether or not Superman is immortal though. It's possible DC removed this excerpt from the TPB because they realized the fans are partial to the seemingly immortal aspect of Superman. Maybe DC wanted to preserve this aspect of Superman's character by editing out Dr. Occult's comments from the TPB and in turn from cannon. By not including Dr. Occult's explanation in future copies of the story, Dc was able to preserve the idea or possibility that Superman is immortal. The idea that Superman was possibly immortal was revisited in All Star Superman. Even though it's not a part of official canon (yet) it seems the modernized version of Superman is immortal and his ability to survive even death wasn't just a fluke, but is another one of his superpowers. The Allstar Superman even evolves over time.

Personally what you point out in your explanation could also describe a NDE (Near Death Experience). It doesn't mean he died, it just means he almost died. I think in the animated version of the "death of Superman" story it said that Superman's life signs were so low that they simply weren't measurable. he was dead enough to catch a glimpse of the afterlife, but not dead enough to be permanently dead.

I always imagined that Superman's physiology is alot more complex then typical human physiology. You can't compare the two, you can only use one as a frame of reference for the other. To me Superman has two fundamental aspects to his being, his physical self and his astral self (for lack of a better word). Human beings have an astral self, but it's not as tangible as Superman's. Superman's astral self is what makes him "super". In the movie Superman 2, when Superman gave up his power to become a normal human, he let go of a substantial portion of his higher self reducing him to more human levels. When Superman is exposed to Kryptonite it's his higher self that is influenced. That's why when exposed to certain forms of kryptonite he loses his power. It's effecting his connection to his astral self. I always got the impression that when Superman died he released his astral self and that astral self took possession of 4 different vessels, It communed with Steel, The Eradicator, Superboy (Kon-El), and the cyborg. We've seen numerous examples of how Superman's lifeforce can be transferred to other beings. Livewire got her powers from Superman's force. In Superman 2 (the movie) Kal-El's force was permanently lost when he gave it up so Jor-El's hologram had to give him it's lifeforce, in order to restore Superman's powers. To me, the 4 Supermen weren't just a gimmick and Superman wasn't being reincarnated in another body. It was more like Superman's astral self was communing (the positive form of possession) with the "supermen". Communing with these four beings allowed Superman to grasp or hold on to the physical plane long enough for his body to recover. When Superman got his powers back, he got them from the Eradicator. So technically, it's possible that the Eradicator was transferring Superman's own lifeforce/astral body, which was stored in the Eradicator back into Kal-El.

The Eradicator, after the robots from the Fortress revealed its true origins, drained all the power out of the Fortress of Solitude (http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Fortress_of_Solitude), regenerating and changing the appearance of its humanoid body. It was seemingly killed in an attempt to shield Superman from a lethal blast of Kryptonite-based fuel, fully recharging the Man of Steel's powers in the process.

Meanwhile, the Last Son/Eradicator joined the fight after recovering in the Fortress, and blocked the Cyborg from dousing Superman with lethal Kryptonite (http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Kryptonite) gas. The gas interacted with the Eradicator as it passed through and into Superman, returning his powers rather than killing him.

The above is from a wiki. The kryptonite gas released the lifeforce in the eradicator and transferred it back into Superman allowing Superman to regain his powers.

[Mat001]

The dialogue in the trade was not removed. Superman can die of old age. This was later confirmed in "Death: Where Is Thy Sting?" a couple of years ago. The only time he was played as being immortal was in "DC 1 Million", but that was later revealed to have been an alternate future and not one that will probably not come to pass. He's clearly dead in every version of the Legion as well as in Booster Gold's timeline. Otherwise, the Legion would've just contacted the Superman of the 31st century, rather than his younger self to fight Superboy-Prime.

In "Superman II", Clark looses his powers because of exposure to red solar energy which affects him at a molecular structure, thus preventing him from being affected by yellow solar energy. Until the Jor-El A.I. reverses the process, which gives him back his abilities.

The Eradicator didn't give Superman back his essence. This was clarified when Clark visited Emil. The Kryptonite which combined with the energies that were stored in the Eradicator became something similar to solar energy or as he called it, Kryptonite X. Roger Stern expanded upon this in his adaptation of the trilogy, when he explained that Superman absorbs all kinds of energy. Yellow solar energy is what works best, but he was absorbing various bits of other light which gave him the chance to survive. Mostly the light from the research facilities in Cadmus which had continued the preservation process. Also, what the device Hamilton brought to help channel energy into electricity to defibiliate (sp) Clark's heart was absorbed by his body, thus helping the preservation of his body.

John Henry Irons was a hero because of his upbringing. He just needed Clark's inspiration to set him on his path. Kon-El was freed coincidentially. Henshaw had nothing in common with Clark. His memories were the result using the Matrix which had recorded bits of data from when the Kents found Clark. The Eradicator's default programming kicked in, but due to the holes in it's A.I. as not all of it was recovered, it no longer wanted to be the Last Son. It wanted to save him. But it got confused due to the telepathic bond between them. Bibbo was just a good man who was also inspired, like John Henry.

[Xybernauts]

The dialogue in the trade was not removed. Superman can die of old age. This was later confirmed in "Death: Where Is Thy Sting?" a couple of years ago. The only time he was played as being immortal was in "DC 1 Million", but that was later revealed to have been an alternate future and not one that will probably not come to pass.

But most of the comics you're talking about are pre-Allstar. I think it's possible Allstar may change all that. At Least it implies he can be immortal. I don't think DC will officially say he's immortal because it maintains the question of whether Superman will die in each story. This question sustains a certain level of suspense in each story.

He's clearly dead in every version of the Legion as well as in Booster Gold's timeline. Otherwise, the Legion would've just contacted the Superman of the 31st century, rather than his younger self to fight Superboy-Prime.


It's possible that Superman is in a place they cannot reach or that they simply don't know where he is. That doesn't necessarily mean he's dead. He might be outside of the multi-verse for instance.




In "Superman II", Clark looses his powers because of exposure to red solar energy which affects him at a molecular structure, thus preventing him from being affected by yellow solar energy. Until the Jor-El A.I. reverses the process, which gives him back his abilities.

Well, the last version of Superman 2 I watched was the Donner's cut. I'm not sure if the explanation in this movie is the same as the explanation in the original version. I know in the Donner's cut, once Superman gave up his powers they were gone for good. The Jor-El hologram gave up it's energy so that Superman could gain his powers back. As a consequence the hologram was "erased"?

The Eradicator didn't give Superman back his essence. This was clarified when Clark visited Emil. The Kryptonite which combined with the energies that were stored in the Eradicator became something similar to solar energy or as he called it, Kryptonite X. Roger Stern expanded upon this in his adaptation of the trilogy, when he explained that Superman absorbs all kinds of energy. Yellow solar energy is what works best, but he was absorbing various bits of other light which gave him the chance to survive. Mostly the light from the research facilities in Cadmus which had continued the preservation process. Also, what the device Hamilton brought to help channel energy into electricity to defibiliate (sp) Clark's heart was absorbed by his body, thus helping the preservation of his body.

John Henry Irons was a hero because of his upbringing. He just needed Clark's inspiration to set him on his path. Kon-El was freed coincidentally. Henshaw had nothing in common with Clark. His memories were the result using the Matrix which had recorded bits of data from when the Kents found Clark. The Eradicator's default programming kicked in, but due to the holes in it's A.I. as not all of it was recovered, it no longer wanted to be the Last Son. It wanted to save him. But it got confused due to the telepathic bond between them. Bibbo was just a good man who was also inspired, like John Henry.

Well it depends on how you interpret the word essence. I didn't say Eradicator restored his life, I said Eradicator restored his powers. I agree that the little bits of energy Superman absorbed helped to revive him, but it didn't restore his powers. The thing about the 4 Supermen is that it was a big coincidence all four of them rose at the time they did. Yes, you could say they were all just impacted by Superman's death, true; but Kon-El is the wildcard. Lex had a pretty hard time creating clones, so for successful clone of Superman to be created at the time it was is a pretty big coincidence.

Also how Superman got his powers was a big coincidence. He got it by making close contact with one of the four Supermen who rose. The Eradicator dies (or loses his power) from the Kryptonite and at the same time Superman is revived back to full power. It may not be official, but one could surmise that what sustained Eradicator's power went into Superman.

The Eradicator got Superman's strong sense of justice without the restraint.

As for Iron's, yes Iron's was a good person because of his upbringing. That's the reason Superman's astral self were attracted to him, assuming my theory is correct.It was attracted to Iron's above all others because something about Iron's embodies what it means to be Superman. The essence would have just given him the extra push he needed in the form of inspiration.

I think chalking it up to a bunch of coincidences cheapens the story, but to say that there was this supernatural element accents it.

[ttippmann]

I never thought that he really died, just moved on to come back better and bigger.

[Mat001]

But most of the comics you're talking about are pre-Allstar. I think it's possible Allstar may change all that. At Least it implies he can be immortal. I don't think DC will officially say he's immortal because it maintains the question of whether Superman will die in each story. This question sustains a certain level of suspense in each story.

All Star Superman is out of continuity. That's why Morrison did that story. It was to allow him to do the stories that he wanted to tell, without having to stick with current continuity. It is a celebration of Superman.

It's possible that Superman is in a place they cannot reach or that they simply don't know where he is. That doesn't necessarily mean he's dead. He might be outside of the multi-verse for instance.

The Superman of that story is dead. His legacy will live on in Superman Secendus.

Well, the last version of Superman 2 I watched was the Donner's cut. I'm not sure if the explanation in this movie is the same as the explanation in the original version. I know in the Donner's cut, once Superman gave up his powers they were gone for good. The Jor-El hologram gave up it's energy so that Superman could gain his powers back. As a consequence the hologram was "erased"?

Both versions used the same idea, just tweaked it because of Donner's being fired and having to reshoot or cut to adhere to the Director Guild's rules who is credited as a director. In the majority of the films under the DGA rules, there can only be one director credited with doing the whole film. However, the rule can be gotten around in certain cases, such as the Cohen brothers. Clark's powers were gone because of the red sun. The Jor-El A.I. undid that with an infusion of power which restored Clark to normal. As a consequence, the Jor-El A.I. no longer works.

Well it depends on how you interpret the word essence. I didn't say Eradicator restored his life, I said Eradicator restored his powers. I agree that the little bits of energy Superman absorbed helped to revive him, but it didn't restore his powers. The thing about the 4 Supermen is that it was a big coincidence all four of them rose at the time they did. Yes, you could say they were all just impacted by Superman's death, true; but Kon-El is the wildcard. Lex had a pretty hard time creating clones, so for successful clone of Superman to be created at the time it was is a pretty big coincidence.

That was the point. The idea initially was that one of the four was Superman, but it was all a red herring because none of them were him. John Henry had his heart, the Eradicator had some of his memories, Kon-El shared some of his DNA and the Cyborg-Superman had the DNA and the Kryptonian technology. Cloning Kryptonian DNA is difficult, but not impossible without using a human's DNA to help. It took Cadmus 13 tries to get to Kon.

Also how Superman got his powers was a big coincidence. He got it by making close contact with one of the four Supermen who rose. The Eradicator dies (or loses his power) from the Kryptonite and at the same time Superman is revived back to full power. It may not be official, but one could surmise that what sustained Eradicator's power went into Superman.

You're looking for things that are not there. All Superman got from the Eradicator was the Kryptonian energy from the Fortress, mixed with what was left of the solar energy in the Eradicator and combined with the Kryptonite restored Clark's powers. It only looks like a coincidence because in fiction, everything comes down to conincidence. Nothing happens by chance.

The Eradicator got Superman's strong sense of justice without the restraint.

No, he didn't. The Eradicator got Clark's memories and applied his programming as a weapon, to fight crime. He didn't have Clark's sense of justice.

As for Iron's, yes Iron's was a good person because of his upbringing. That's the reason Superman's astral self were attracted to him, assuming my theory is correct.It was attracted to Iron's above all others because something about Iron's embodies what it means to be Superman. The essence would have just given him the extra push he needed in the form of inspiration.

Superman's astral essence was never in anyone else's body except his own when it returned to Earth in Adventures of Superman #500 and recounted in fuller detail in Action Comics #692. Steel was just a hero who always had the potential and just needed Superman's example to help him on his way.

I think chalking it up to a bunch of coincidences cheapens the story, but to say that there was this supernatural element accents it.

Again, fiction is full of conincidences.

[Lorendiac]

That was the point. The idea initially was that one of the four was Superman, but it was all a red herring because none of them were him. John Henry had his heart, the Eradicator had some of his memories, Kon-El shared some of his DNA and the Cyborg-Superman had the DNA and the Kryptonian technology. Cloning Kryptonian DNA is difficult, but not impossible without using a human's DNA to help. It took Cadmus 13 tries to get to Kon.

Actually: As near as I can tell, the "real" origin story of Kon-El in the 1990s went this way:

"The kid has none of the original Superman's Kryptonian DNA, but he started out honestly believing he was a clone with all of the same DNA as the original."

After a year or two, readers learned the new Superboy had been dead wrong about being a Superman clone with Kryptonian DNA, however -- his DNA was human; the vast majority of it came straight from Paul Westfield at Cadmus. Some modifications were made with the intention of creating someone who would closely resemble the original Superman, including genes which were meant to give the kid duplications of some or all of Superman's powers -- but even the "super-powered" genes were not simply copied from Kryptonian DNA, because Cadmus hadn't been able to make that work with such radically different DNA as the stuff Kryptonians used.

It was only a decade after Kon-El first appeared -- around 2003, I believe -- that Geoff Johns decided to wave his hand and retcon all that as if the "clone of Paul Westfield" thing had simply never happened.

[Mat001]

So it's fake because Geoff Johns changed the origin. Right, guess John Byrne's Superman origin was a fake since it invalidated Mort Weisenger's (sp) version. Gotcha.

[Super Buddies Forever]

Actually, Johns did clear up the Westfield stuff in a flashback in (I believe) a Teen Titans annual right before Infinite Crisis. Luthor tricked Westfield into believing that he was the DNA source, when it was really half-Superman, half-Luthor.

And yes, Superman did die. I think there's so much confusion that he was in a coma because this is what Superman himself says on a couple of occasions. Batman even called him out on in during the arc in which Jason Todd comes back, saying that they only told themselves that at the time to make sense of it all.

The only reason the body didn't start decomposing, as explained by Occult, was that he had enough solar energy stored in his cells to stave it off and remain intact. Not sure how applicable that is now that the nature of the solar power has been retconned into being a light switch instead of a battery, but there you are.

[Mat001]

As I understand it, Kryptonians are still a solar battery. It's just that when they absorb a different spectrum of solar energy, it affects their powers. No sunlight still results in a draining of his powers. "The Final Night" is still in continuity and his powers did drain off. The only difference is that, to date, we have not seen Clark on a planet without any sunlight.