The Chart Pop Thread

[Jonathan Bogart]

Okay, I really started this thread so I could link to a new essay (http://aceterrier.com/?p=1135) on my blog about listening to the radio over the summer.

But I think that more generally speaking it would be a good idea to have a place where those of us who have an interest in current chart music to talk about it. (Those who don't have an interest don't have to read it. I don't open the metal thread very often either.)

I think too often the productive discussions we could be having about pop are squirreled away in threads about specific acts or even songs, when (at least to me) the charts are only really interesting in the aggregate, as a map of the current pop mood, rather than as individual flashes of (ahem) genius.

But to start the discussion, at least, I'll just throw this out there:

Kanye West's "Love Lockdown" is one of the most forward-thinking pieces of mainstream pop since at least Stankonia, if not Purple Rain. Debate.

[twilight]

I recognize I'm about to lose any credibility I had but the other day I was sitting around thinking that Miley Cyrus' "7 Things" was pretty interesting.

More interesting than what I expect from Miley Cyrus anyway.

-Twi

[twilight]

Oh and I do like that Paramore song.

Especially that call and response at the end.

-Twi

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Chris Daughtry is someone I enjoy listening to. The guy has a great voice and its no shock I pimp his album constantly. I read where he's next album will be out in the spring and will be more rock geared so I'll be happy.

[CJ Lentze]

Kanye West's "Love Lockdown" is one of the most forward-thinking pieces of mainstream pop since at least Stankonia, if not Purple Rain. Debate.Could you give the reasons why you think that song is so progressive? I just gave it a listen, but maybe I should listen to it a couple times more.

[Jonathan Bogart]

Could you give the reasons why you think that song is so progressive? I just gave it a listen, but maybe I should listen to it a couple times more.
1) The minimal nature of the arrangement. It's kind of amazing how stripped down it is.

2) The fact that it still coheres as an elegantly-structured, thematically and musically whole pop song. Not many pop compositions can stand being presented in so minimal a fashion.

3) The subtlety of the bassline, which provides the pulse of the song until those tribal drums kick in.

4) The way the fragmented, angular melody reinforces the feverish, paranoid urgency of the lyrics.

5) The way the AutoTuned vocal does the same thing, adding another layer of unreality to the fever-dream narrative of the song.

6) Those aforementioned tribal drums, drawing explicit connections between the intensely technocratic, postmodern music of the now and the original impulse behind all music -- and particularly black music. There's a reason I mentioned Prince and Outkast; in the order of values in which this song is great, great music is black. There are other hierarchies, but they have little bearing here.

[x_goalkeeper]

Chris Daughtry is someone I enjoy listening to. The guy has a great voice and its no shock I pimp his album constantly. I read where he's next album will be out in the spring and will be more rock geared so I'll be happy.

I don't like most american music, but Chris Daughtry is one I'm starting to like :smile:

[DrewTheXenocide]

Surprisingly enough (for me, at least), I really like this song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeuABgHML1Q

[Jonathan Bogart]

Surprisingly enough (for me, at least), I really like this song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeuABgHML1Q

It's a great song (and I analyze it pretty much to death in that essay).

[bfrank]

Kanye West's "Love Lockdown" is one of the most forward-thinking pieces of mainstream pop since at least Stankonia, if not Purple Rain. Debate.

By copying andre 3000 and t-pain?

[Jonathan Bogart]

By copying andre 3000 and t-pain?
I guess if you trace all AutoTune back to T-Pain (though I don't know why you would), that's one thing, but I don't hear any Andre 3000 in there at all. Care to expand?

[jesse_custer]

Jonathan, have you come across Estelle or Chrisette Michele yet?

[jessecuster3]

I love Leona Lewis' Bleeding Love and I am not ashamed of that, at all.

[Jonathan Bogart]

Jonathan, have you come across Estelle or Chrisette Michele yet?
I gush about Estelle in the essay. Chrisette Michele has not come to my attention.

[DrewTheXenocide]

Oh and I do like that Paramore song.

Especially that call and response at the end.

-Twi

That and the lead singer is all sorts of cute.

[jesse_custer]

I gush about Estelle in the essay. Chrisette Michele has not come to my attention.

Your point about Kanye West's subtlety in "American Boy" is right on. It's also an ironic point considering that, as you say, the song addresses him. I also agree the track is about the international accessibility of pop. For some reason, I can't help but think about The Guess Who's "American Woman" while listening to "American Boy." I've always hated "American Woman." Of course, the guitar riff is incredibly boring, but the less obvious thing I hated is what I am now able to articulate after hearing "American Boy" so much: one song is fun and international, the other one is a bummer that for some reason Americans love!

Anyway, I highly recommend Estelle's Shine album if you haven't given it a whirl yet.

For Chrisette Michele, she hasn't had much success outside of the R&B charts. She is a wonderful combination of the old smoky female jazz vocalist and the new energetic female R&B diva (she also evokes gospel at times). Her single "Be OK" is one of the most positive things I've heard in years, but it's about a tough break up. That one song started an instant addiction with her personality and style for me, so definitely give it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFO5hTmM5FQ&feature=related) a try, then perhaps move on to her other stuff, like "Best of Me" and "Mr. Radio."

[Adam C]

YOf course, the guitar riff is incredibly boring, but the less obvious thing I hated is what I am now able to articulate after hearing "American Boy" so much: one song is fun and international, the other one is a bummer that for some reason Americans love!

Well it was a political song written during the Vietnam war against U.S. military actions so it has nabbing zeitgeist going for it in terms of worming its way into Boomer hearts. But it also perfectly fits the mould of dumb-ass seventies guitar plod that's lionised in the classic rock worship. (And it's not like Black Sabbath didn't produce plenty of classic bummers that won American love...granted those were better.)

But yeah "American Boy" is an infinitely better song.

[jesse_custer]

Supposedly the "Woman" is the Statue of Liberty, but I would have never known that if I had not read the band saying that.

(And it's not like Black Sabbath didn't produce plenty of classic bummers that won American love...granted those were better.)

True, but I never thought of Sabbath as a chart band. Plus, despite their darkness, Black Sabbath's music is FUN.

[Adam C]

True, but I never thought of Sabbath as a chart band. Plus, despite their darkness, Black Sabbath's music is FUN.

Yes.

I actually thought of a better encapsulation of the appeal of "American Woman." It combines the guitar worship of seventies hard rock with the self-importance of the music of that generation. Plus for Canadians it was a hit in the States thus providing us with a 70s hard rock band that we can celebrate to bolster our national inferiority complex.

[howyadoin]

Well it was a political song written during the Vietnam war against U.S. military actions so it has nabbing zeitgeist going for it in terms of worming its way into Boomer hearts.
Supposedly the "Woman" is the Statue of Liberty, but I would have never known that if I had not read the band saying that.I always heard that it was a putdown of a specific American chick that Burton Cummings met at a party.

[Adam C]

I always heard that it was a putdown of a specific American chick that Burton Cummings met at a party.

Somehow I find that much more believable.

And bringing the discussion away from seventies rock and to modern pop, Jon the way you've continually gushed about Lil' Wayne here and elsewhere means I'm going to have to go out and get one of his records. This is also leading me to experiment with listening to mainstream radio here in Saskatoon, but I have no idea how this will pan out as the Saskatoon selection is relatively quite limited.

[twilight]

That and the lead singer is all sorts of cute.

True,but I think you and I are the only ones young enough for it not to be creepy.

-Twi

[Adam C]

Upon listening to "Forever" over You Tube all I can say is...

...how Daft Punk, that is if Daft Punk were filtered through 80s Motown sensibilities.

[bfrank]

I guess if you trace all AutoTune back to T-Pain (though I don't know why you would),

Perhaps you should remember that the auto tune was dead until T-pain brought it back. and the biggest biters of his style? Kanye West and Lil Wayne....Is there any wonder why they wish to form a super group?


but I don't hear any Andre 3000 in there at all. Care to expand?

Easy: His new album is nothing more than him copying "The Love Below"......

[bfrank]

Estelle? Ugh (save for Pretty Please (Love Me)...and that's for the Cee-lo green app).

Janelle Monae is the better choice!

http://buzzworthy.mtv.com/2008/10/20/new-video-janelle-monae-many-moons/

[Jonathan Bogart]

Perhaps you should remember that the auto tune was dead until T-pain brought it back. and the biggest biters of his style? Kanye West and Lil Wayne....Is there any wonder why they wish to form a super group?
As I said in the essay, after this summer I think AutoTune is no longer just T-Pain's style -- it's now the Sound of Pop.

Easy: His new album is nothing more than him copying "The Love Below"......
Until anyone comes up with any actual sonic, structural, or lyrical similarities, I'll remain skeptical. A rapper making a pop album isn't an unusual enough step to automatically be a rip-off of someone who did it before.

[bfrank]

As I said in the essay, after this summer I think AutoTune is no longer just T-Pain's style -- it's now the Sound of Pop.

Yes, because anything that T-pain does goes to #1, of course every one else is going to bite his style, kanye included......


Until anyone comes up with any actual sonic, structural, or lyrical similarities, I'll remain skeptical. A rapper making a pop album isn't an unusual enough step to automatically be a rip-off of someone who did it before.

Lyrical similarities.....in a love song.....lol.....Sorry, but in case I didn't make it clear in the original post, there is nothing "forward thinking" about "Love Lockdown".....It's rather "empty"(lol)

[Adam C]

Perhaps you should remember that the auto tune was dead until T-pain brought it back. and the biggest biters of his style?

Back in my day we called this "being influenced by another musician." I mean did anyone claim that Brian Wilson and the Beatles were "biting" Phil Spector's style?


Easy: His new album is nothing more than him copying "The Love Below"......

Has that even been released yet?

[bfrank]

Back in my day we called this "being influenced by another musician." I mean did anyone claim that Brian Wilson and the Beatles were "biting" Phil Spector's style?

Apples and Oranges, however, had they have been "backpackers" ala Kanye, then yes, some would make the claim.....


Has that even been released yet?


LOL...what does that have to do with anything in this day and age? John Legend's CD came out on Tuesday, and yet, I've been bumping it all month long.......

[Adam C]

Lyrical similarities.....in a love song.....lol...

I'm afraid that's rather vague and thus empty.

[Adam C]

Apples and Oranges, however, had they have been "backpackers" ala Kanye, then yes, some would make the claim.....

How is it apples and oranges, and what does the backpacking part have to do with anything? (What does it even mean?)


LOL...what does that have to do with anything in this day and age? John Legend's CD came out on Tuesday, and yet, I've been bumping it all month long.......

Then kindly point out how Kanye's new album is just riffing The Love Below.

[bfrank]

I'm afraid that's rather vague and thus empty.

I'm afraid that went over your head......

[bfrank]

How is it apples and oranges, and what does the backpacking part have to do with anything? (What does it even mean?)

lol....you need to do a quick study on hip hop before we can finish talking......


Then kindly point out how Kanye's new album is just riffing The Love Below.

The title alone tells me.....him singing every song, cements it......

[Jonathan Bogart]

Apples and Oranges, however, had they have been "backpackers" ala Kanye, then yes, some would make the claim.....
Which just tells me that hip-hop fans are unnecessarily judgmental, divisive, and quick to shit on anyone stepping outside their narrowly perceived boundaries of what makes good hip-hop.

[Adam C]

lol....you need to do a quick study on hip hop before we can finish talking......

"We can finish talking?" I'm surprised you're even acknowledging that there's someone on the other end of the conversation.

Which just tells me that hip-hop fans are unnecessarily judgmental, divisive, and quick to shit on anyone stepping outside their narrowly perceived boundaries of what makes good hip-hop.

So what you're saying is that they're like punk fans?

[Jonathan Bogart]

So what you're saying is that they're like punk fans?
Mm. "Backpacker" is to hip-hop discourse what "indie" is to rock discourse: a signifier of ideological warfare, useless for evaluative or critical purposes.

[bfrank]

"We can finish talking?" I'm surprised you're even acknowledging that there's someone on the other end of the conversation.

Well, i'm sorry I don't blindly buy the nonsense that a song is "forward thinking" when it's clearly based on other folks works (which were much better by the way.....I'll take Empty over Love Lock down any day)....

That being said, I no longer acknowledge you....

[bfrank]

N*E*R^D's "Love Bomb" is better than anything from "808 and the heartbreaks"......

[Buried Alien]

Keep the conversation as cool as jazz, guys, or the thread is history.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Moderator Alive!)

[mattx110]

Keep the conversation as cool as jazz, guys, or the thread is history.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Moderator Alive!)
Or... we could take it and do a chart jazz thread...












Ok, I guess this is our only option...

[Jonathan Bogart]

I don't mind differing opinions; controversy is one of the things that lets you know pop's alive.

(For example, no one has ever taken issue with any statement I've made about pre-rock music. I love the stuff, but I know it's dead.)

[DrewTheXenocide]

I still don't see what you love about Chris Brown's "Forever." I've listened to it a handful of times, and it just seems kind of boring.

That being said, my suitemates and I have been belting out "No Air" for months.

[Adam C]

Well, i'm sorry I don't blindly buy the nonsense that a song is "forward thinking" when it's clearly based on other folks works (which were much better by the way.....I'll take Empty over Love Lock down any day)....


The problem is that I never actually commented on whether "Love Lockdown" was the most forward thinking pop song of the late aughts. I merely asked for clarification on why it's merely imitating Andre 3000's pop experiments.

So I cued up The Love Below aannnd...while it's a love themed album done by a rapper-turned-singer, the similarities end there. Andre takes the Phil Spector approach to pop arranging. From the faux-swing of "Love Hater" to the hazy neo-pysch soul of "Prototype" to the whacked out dance-pop of "Hey Ya!" is concerned with filling up the spaces in the song. Even the relatively minimalist "Happy Valetine's Day" breaks out of the clipped funk rhythm track for a full-on celebratory choruses that release the tension within the song. Only "Behold a Lady" comes even close to "Love Lockdown"s minimalism. Yet it's based on funk rhythms and hip-hop breaks with backing vocals coming in.

"Love Lockdown" on the other hand follows this single, extremely minimal tribal beat and bassline. It doesn't sound like anything on The Love Below. In fact it feels completely out of place with the entire album. Where 'Dre ruminates on the value of love, the strength of his love, and the virtuous qualities of a woman, Kanye is singing about how his love has gone wrong, turning into a fixation that brings only heartache. He uses fractured, minimal images that don't really fit with Andre's lyrical aesthetic in The Love Below and the music is even further removed from it. Only the fractured piano melody holds against the claustrophobic, paranoid atmosphere of the song and the only release from the suffocation comes from the tribal drumming, which only signifies the tension overriding the nerves. And of course Kanye's choice of Autotune to colour his serves to enhance the claustrophobic nature of the song. And based on the examples I saw in Bogart's post and searching for videos by T-Pain, that's a thoughtful and emotional use of the software that T Pain didn't seem to think of.

So in short I think that "Love Lockdown" is about as much as a "bite" of Andre 3000 as the Velvet Underground were of post-Revolver Beatles.

[Jonathan Bogart]

I still don't see what you love about Chris Brown's "Forever." I've listened to it a handful of times, and it just seems kind of boring.
I tried to express what I see in it in my essay. If that doesn't help, I don't know what else can.

[DrewTheXenocide]

I know. I'm just offering a differing opinoin.

In any case, color me surprised that you didn't hear any more of the pop-rock stuff. I couldn't get away from Fall Out Boy all summer and I didn't even listen to the radio.

[Jonathan Bogart]

I know. I'm just offering a differing opinoin.

In any case, color me surprised that you didn't hear any more of the pop-rock stuff. I couldn't get away from Fall Out Boy all summer and I didn't even listen to the radio.
The new Fall Out Boy song started playing once school started again.

But in Phoenix, anyway, pop primarily means dance and r&b. (The youthful population that drives radio play is mostly shades of brown.) Rock fans tend towards either classicism or non-pop; stations that lean too heavily on new rock don't survive.

[DrewTheXenocide]

I see. So what kind of stuff did your alternative rock station play?

Coincidently, the radio station at my school is called The Edge too.

[Jonathan Bogart]

I see. So what kind of stuff did your alternative rock station play?
Hard to tell; whenever I switched to it it was nearly always in the middle of a '90s flashback hour. Or playing Weezer.

[twilight]

Okay,after seeing Jonathan speak so highly of him and even Pitchfork giving his latest album a positive review I went out of my way to listen to the work of Lil Wayne.

That was...interesting.

I'm not sure I can completely agree with Jonathan's assessment of him being some kind of genius but it's either that or his what seems to be a "throw everything at the wall and see what sticks" approach yields unusually high results.

Not to say that there wasn't some clunky lyrics strewn around and some misogyny I wasn't entirely comfortable with but when he was on he was on.

-Twi

[jesse_custer]

Lil Wayne is surprisingly good. Genius? No, but that's only because we tend to define genius differently.

[leonaozaki]

I say this as someone who (referencing the original essay) loves Michael Jackson, Prince and Madonna: the appeal of modern chart pop is pretty much lost on me. So, besides Chris Brown's "Forever" and Kanye West's "Love Lockdown" what are the great chart-pop singles I should be listening to?

rob

[DrewTheXenocide]

I don't know about Jonathan, but some of the stuff I've been enjoying is:

Ne-Yo's Closer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUTh3OJjWjM

Chris Brown and T-Pain's Kiss Kiss: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DC4Rb9quKk&feature=channel

[Jonathan Bogart]

At the moment, what I'm really digging on the charts is:

T.I. ft. Rihanna, "Live Your Life" (you don't hear enough electronic yodeling these days)

T-Pain ft. Lil Wayne, "Can't Believe It" (the weirdest, most left-field r&b ballad I've ever heard)

John Legend ft. Andre 3000, "Green Light" (for obvious reasons)

Christina Aguilera, "Keeps Gettin' Better" (because that Gary Glitter beat can be put to good use)

That's aside from stuff I praised in the essay that's still hanging around. (Some of which is getting a little old, frankly. "Disturbia" didn't need to stick around after Halloween.)

Stuff I don't exactly recommend, but are worth hearing at least once:

The Game ft. Lil Wayne, "My Life" (because Weezy sings the hook, and because of the Game's ridiculous self-importance; it's the only rap hit this year that sounds like it could have been recorded in the 90s)

Lil Wayne ft. Bobby Valentino & Kidd Kidd, "Mrs. Officer" (just because the phrase "f*ck the police" made me laugh out loud first time I heard it)

Kevin Rudolf ft. Lil Wayne, "Let It Rock" (rap-rock is back, but this time it's camp)

[howyadoin]

Christina Aguilera, "Keeps Gettin' Better" (because that Gary Glitter beat can be put to good use)Damn, that's kinda hot.