CBR: Shooter Dishes on Legion Demise

[CBR News]

With the announcement that DC\'s “Legion of Super-Heroes� would end with #50, \r\nwriter Jim Shooter confirms he was fired from the book twice and shares \r\nwhat could have been for the title, including the introduction of a new Kryptonian.


Full article here (http://comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=18623).

[cousindick]

I think the real reason that the current Legion is being canceled is because the classic Legion is returning.

Most of us are pretty enthusiastic about the Levitz/Giffen era Legion (one of the best superteam books of all time) that Geoff Johns brought back in Action Comics and Legion of Three Worlds, right? If there was a series with that team, written by Geoff Johns, I'd definitely buy that every month.

[MNM]

With the exception of one or two small plot points, I have overall enjoyed Shooters run on Legion, it's a shame it's ending.

[Pixie_Solanas]

With the exception of one or two small plot points, I have overall enjoyed Shooters run on Legion, it's a shame it's ending.

Me too. I'm a bit pissed as i've only recently begun to buy LofSH and now it's ending :(

[Joe Acro]

I think the real reason that the current Legion is being canceled is because the classic Legion is returning.
You make it sound as if there can't be more than one reason.


It may be a little unprofessional to essentially blame the cancellation on editorial. But, if nothing else, this does explain why the story feels a little disjointed in spots. And Universal Annihilation War sounds too similar in name to Annihilation. Just sayin'.

[Joe Franklin]

Shooter has balls for taking on his employers, even though this usually leads to career suicide.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Shooter has balls for taking on his employers, even though this usually leads to career suicide.

Reading about his tenure as Marvel EIC, I don't think Shooter cares in the least what others think of him. The guy's prided himself on being a grade-a dick.

[Kelson]

I think the real reason that the current Legion is being canceled is because the classic Legion is returning.

Most of us are pretty enthusiastic about the Levitz/Giffen era Legion (one of the best superteam books of all time) that Geoff Johns brought back in Action Comics and Legion of Three Worlds, right? If there was a series with that team, written by Geoff Johns, I'd definitely buy that every month.

How many books can Geoff Johns write, though? I haven't heard anything about him dropping any titles, and word is that he'll be continuing on Flash after Rebirth.

[Eumenides]

Reading about his tenure as Marvel EIC...

Frank Miller on Daredevil

Chris Claremont on X-Men

Walt Simonson on Thor

Joh Byrne on Fantastic Four

Roger Stern on Spider-Man

... now that we have a contextual frame, do tell us all about his tenure as Marvel EIC during the company's greatest age since the early '60s :biggrin:

How many books can Geoff Johns write, though?

Nowadays no one commits himself to anything: he'll write twelve issues (probably co-write them), then leave for another franchise in need of rescue.

[Michael P]

Wow. That's definitely not your usual exit interview.

I think he's a bit too harsh with his assessment of Manapul, but I can't blame him for feeling ticked at editorial dicking around with his stories. Especially if the developments with Dream Girl as printed in issue 47 weren't his idea.

[Michael P]

Frank Miller on Daredevil

Chris Claremont on X-Men

Walt Simonson on Thor

John Byrne on Fantastic Four

Roger Stern on Spider-Man

... now that we have a contextual frame, do tell us all about his tenure as Marvel EIC during the company's greatest age since the early '60s :biggrin:
He oversaw the production of some great comics (although Claremont on X-Men predates his tenure), but he treated a lot of his employees like crap and ran the Marvel offices like a gulag to do it.

[Ghost Shark]

It's Jim Shooter. Did anybody really expect this to end differently?
Personally, I love his new LoSH run, and I grew up on the Marvel comics put out when he was EIC, but I really am not surprised at all. Too bad really.

[CBikle]

A couple of thoughts:

Shooter was very brutally honest on everything including his own role in the book's demise.

He's clearly a talented, hard-working guy who can never seem to get in-sync with anyone else he works with; the guy just seems to have "reverse-synergy".

Complaining to other DC staffers about his book's mishaps might not have pissed off Didio if it wasn't for all the other, larger mishaps befalling all the other DC titles at the time like Countdown, Death Of The New Gods and Salvation Run; maybe just bad timing.

[carabas]

I think he's a bit too harsh with his assessment of Manapul, but I can't blame him for feeling ticked at editorial dicking around with his stories.Meh. Karma bites. He used to one of the single most micro-managing editors-in-chief back in the day. Writers pretty much universally loathed him for his attitude and for what he did to their stories.

[Zero Hunter]

Considering the total crapfest he inherited from Waid on this title I think Shooter did a fantastic job on the series. He turned the book back into the "Legion of Super Heroes". The hole Waid dug with his horrible run was just too big to climb out of for this series.


As for his personality and the way he treated writers yeah he could be a dick, but alot of those same writers that complained the loudest about him did the best work of their carears under his tenure as EIC. Sometimes a writer needs a strong hand to reign them in a bit when they start to go off the rails, and Shooter did that very well.

[veryvery]

oh my god. i cannot believe he gave such horrible backhanded criticisms of manapul, manapul's art was the ONLY reason I and many others were buying this book because the story was offensively sexist, disgusting, and juvenile AT BEST. to openly criticize an artist that has a million times more talent at art then shooter EVER had with his writing is appallingly unprofessional. not to mention giving away the ending to the issues and screwing over other people on the creative team.

i'm dropping it with this issue, even though there are only a couple issues left because 47 was the worst piece of nonsensical crap i've ever read.

shooter inherited cast of characters from waid and bedard that were complex and totally modern in scope and presentation. the legion i read with waid and bedard was a PROGRESSIVE legion, an inclusive, admirable legion that i could be proud to say I read. and within three issues he had once admirable characters acting like backbiting morons and don't even get me started on what he did to the female characters. the only gratifying aspect of these issues was manapul's art that made everyone look sleek and cool, even if the things they were saying and doing were reprehensibly stupid.

shooter's dialogue is laughable, his "plots" were ridiculous, and his characterization was two-dimensional and completely inconsistent. i'm glad DC learned it's lesson that working with this man again was a BAD idea that brought nothing but bad things to a good comic.

SAVE ME, GEOFF JOHNS. CRISIS THIS BOOK TO HELL AND GIVE ME A BEAUTIFUL NEW LEGION.

[Michael P]

If you think Geoff Johns is going to give you a progressive Legion that's modern in presentation, you must be smoking some very good stuff, and I want in.

[Sir Tim Drake]

“Sales of ‘The Legion of Super-Heroes’ aren’t great, but they’re a lot better than those of some of the titles they’re keeping. I think canceling the book is a graceful way of getting rid of me. I complain too much and too loudly.”

After reading this interview, I'm even more furious at the company that deprived Shooter of the opportunity to finish his story, and deprived me of the pleasure of reading that story.

Way to go, DC, and Dan DiDio in particular. I've been buying several of your comics every month for the past 15 years. Because of this short-sighted and unfair decision, you have cost yourself a long-time customer. It will be a long time before I'm willing to forgive you and buy your products again.

And thanks for some great Legion stories, Jim. I wish you could have finished your story.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

After reading this interview, I'm even more furious at the company that deprived Shooter of the opportunity to finish his story, and deprived me of the pleasure of reading that story.

Way to go, DC, and Dan DiDio in particular. I've been buying several of your comics every month for the past 15 years. Because of this short-sighted and unfair decision, you have cost yourself a long-time customer. It will be a long time before I'm willing to forgive you and buy your products again.

And thanks for some great Legion stories, Jim. I wish you could have finished your story.

Dude...we saw this play out with Chuck Dixon. If you don't stay best pals with Didio and bow to his direction your not wanted. Shooter will be back once Didio's run ends in a few years...and its likely he'll joke about how editoral did him. I wouldn't drop all the books due to this one thing...theres some DC does good still....

And yep...it sucks what happened with Shooter. You can tell he made Didio nervous. They come from 2 different schools of writing/editor . One belives in cheap deaths and returns...the other believes in telling good stories ...

[Sir Tim Drake]

Now that I've calmed down a bit by reading some Gunnerkrigg Court (http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=19), I've had another thought. It seems like Shooter's problem is that he's an extremely intelligent and efficient man, but that he has a certain lack of tact. He seems to care more about results than about the feelings of his co-workers. Which would explain why he does his job very well, but makes a lot of enemies along the way.

[brett tolino]

Personally, it was Jim Shooter that brought me back to reading the Legion again and while I have been enjoying the story, It's clear its not Jim Shooter at his best as his prior work clearly defines. Now, we know why and like many, many other creators at DC who have also left the fold, Jim Shooter can take comfort knowing he is not alone. Jim Shooter is a talent and to the untalented, you are perceived as a threat so no shock that he's gone from DC, a boiling pit of amateur unprofessionals stewing in their own soup.

I just read a 20 questions and answers with Didio on Newsarama and I guess where these things are supposed to promote and bring in readers, get them pumped and excited, it really so turned me off, it managed to serve as the wake up call I've needed for a very long, long time.

I haven't bought any Marvel Comics since the entire Spider Man disaster. For me, if you can't take a publisher on his word, his word becomes meaningless in product. It really is very basic common sense: if the mandate is that Spidey can never marry, you kill possibility in the mind of a reader, even if it is an illusion. It means the character can never grow or evolve and to the intelligent reader, if you kill the possibility, there's no point in reading because you already know before you even open the cover, the story will never go anywhere so, what's the point?

It was easy giving up Marvel Comics because I haven't been interested in their characters, since, well Jim Shooter's tenure as EIC. I know he gets ragged on by creators a lot but the material published during his tenure was quality work that inspired an entire generation, an entire generation that keeps retelling those same stories over and over again.

DC was another animal because I really, really love the characters. But supporting characters who are barely a shadow of the heroes I once knew doesn't serve anyone and clearly, DC under Didio has gone into the toilet. He is a man whose lack of talent does not support his ego and really, I don't care how nice of a guy he is if the final product just plain sucks. When I pay for a comic, I pay for the work, not the personality of the EIC, an EIC who has created a such a revolting environment of hositility, I as a reader have to pull myself out before I drown.

And therein lies the irony.

When the drama behind the scenes overshadows the stories themselves, then you have a problem. There's been so much drama in the industry lately, its revolting but it wouldn't be so bad if there was quality work coming out of it as there was when Shooter was in charge but sadly, there isn't.

I wrote a post that was, more or less a good bye to the industry after that article on Newsarama. I haven't given up on comics because I have many comics I've bought, when they actually were good, to keep me reading for the rest of my life. And there's so much other entertainment out there -- like great, great books if the intelligent mind needs a kick -- that giving up on new comics really will be no loss for me and I'm sure my dollars won't be missed. Heck, they say comics are selling better now than ever so really, they don't need or want my money as the foolish amateurs are always so fast to insinuate.

Still, thanks Mr, Shooter for your effort. You may be gone from DC and so many others are too and now, so am I so I guess we can all take comfort knowing we're not alone and heck, it sure was fun... when it was fun!

[newscott]

I haven't bought any Marvel Comics since the entire Spider Man disaster. For me, if you can't take a publisher on his word, his word becomes meaningless in product. It really is very basic common sense: if the mandate is that Spidey can never marry, you kill possibility in the mind of a reader, even if it is an illusion. It means the character can never grow or evolve and to the intelligent reader, if you kill the possibility, there's no point in reading because you already know before you even open the cover, the story will never go anywhere so, what's the point?

Exactly the same with me. The End of One More day synched right up with Shooter's first issue. I dropped ASM, added LOSH, and was happy for it.

*sigh*

I'm exasperated.

I met Dan Didio this summer, he seemed nice enough and we talked LOSH. I never thought it'd be canned so soon.

[R3DJaySantos]

Well, Shooter did put the "blame" on himself too. Which I find it odd. :confused: Perhaps some little respect to the EIC. Maybe he could see the difficulty of Mr. DiDio making tough decisions, especially regarding low-selling books, story or sales-wise. It was a position Mr. Shooter had to deal with a lot when he was in Marvel as EIC, and that perhaps the irony of it all, he was the writer that got cut.

Nonetheless, his story so far is ok at best, plus with the exposure the LoSH got for the last three years managed to help readers (and non-fans) get to know the LoSH more than ever. Plus they got their own mini on the Final Crisis saga. Hard to dispute that fact.:smile:

Maybe the story's direction by Shooter (and by its editors) didn't mesh well with the current events which led to its early demise. :frown:

52 Multiverse stories anyone? :tongue:

[Sir Tim Drake]

I wrote a post that was, more or less a good bye to the industry after that article on Newsarama. I haven't given up on comics because I have many comics I've bought, when they actually were good, to keep me reading for the rest of my life. And there's so much other entertainment out there -- like great, great books if the intelligent mind needs a kick -- that giving up on new comics really will be no loss for me and I'm sure my dollars won't be missed. Heck, they say comics are selling better now than ever so really, they don't need or want my money as the foolish amateurs are always so fast to insinuate.

Keep in mind, there are lots of other good comics that aren't published by Marvel or DC. Usagi Yojimbo, Supernatural Law, Nexus, and Age of Bronze all come immediately to mind, and that's without even including graphic novels, webcomics and manga. Giving up on Marvel and DC doesn't have to mean giving up comics entirely.

[R3DJaySantos]

Lastly, over the years I've been following the big 2, sometimes Image, the hardest part of being an EIC is that for better or for worse, it all boils down to him/her to make the decision. It will ALWAYS polarize fans. :eek:

[DoctorWhiskey]

I wonder if the designs for Super Lad will show up anytime soon? somebody put Rich Johnston on the case!!

[R3DJaySantos]

I wonder if the designs for Super Lad will show up anytime soon? somebody put Rich Johnston on the case!!

The spitcurl! Don't forget the spitcurl, please! :biggrin:

[EMeadow]

Wow. That's definitely not your usual exit interview.

I think he's a bit too harsh with his assessment of Manapul, but I can't blame him for feeling ticked at editorial dicking around with his stories. Especially if the developments with Dream Girl as printed in issue 47 weren't his idea.

I woudln't call Shooter's assessment of Manpul's art style harsh per se. But let's face it, Shooter comes from the era where the artist wasn't trying to later sell the art for himself at cons to make later profit by making it look "AWESOME!" like they do now.

They were there to get the story done, and go on to the next one. And that's what he did when he was running Marvel, Valiant, and Defiant as well.

Manapul comes from the modern school (this in no way is a detraction of his art which I do enjoy) where its about making it look as cool as possible with hope of selling the original art later.

[Scott Taylor]

I knew it would never last, but am sure happy I was here for it. Good run, if short and a little inconsistent.

[Samy]

Great stuff. For once it feels like I'm actually hearing the truth, like an adult telling an adult, instead of a PR release told by a patronizing adult to a child.

I'll definitely be interested in what Shooter does next. The man has storytelling skills. Whether he's a dick or not is beside the point. I pay for the story, not for the life story of the man behind the scenes.

[sandy1978]

I was really enjoying this book. I original picked it up for the art by found I really liked the story. This book was always on the top of my read pile when it came out. I will miss this book and will probably not pick up the new Legion book when it comes out.

Oh well another good book gone from the racks. When will DC get rid of Dan Dido I really am not impressed with the direction of DC over the last 2 years. I think they are really going down and fast. If not for Geoff Johns I would not be reading many DC books at all anymore.

[Eumenides]

Meh. Karma bites. He used to one of the single most micro-managing editors-in-chief back in the day. Writers pretty much universally loathed him for his attitude and for what he did to their stories.

Maybe he did treat writers horribly. Didn't stop them from making great work.

The difference between him and Didio, of course, is that his tenure as Marvel EIC is universally loved by fans, whereas Didio's tenure on DC has divided readers and lead to sales losses.

[johnnyrocket]

I think the real reason that the current Legion is being canceled is because the classic Legion is returning.

Most of us are pretty enthusiastic about the Levitz/Giffen era Legion (one of the best superteam books of all time) that Geoff Johns brought back in Action Comics and Legion of Three Worlds, right? If there was a series with that team, written by Geoff Johns, I'd definitely buy that every month.



Exactly. QFT

[Yodazone]

And what ever happened to his last series?

http://sevensuperheroes.com/

:confused:

[pariah-1972]

That was a pretty insightfull interview i must say i feel bad for Mr Manupaul i think he did his best but artists are just cut from a different cloth nowadays.

Ad i don't think thats particularly his fault cause what i've seen on the page looked really good and upheald its end story telling wise so i'm not sure what the problem was exactly.
Bt i also don't feel like Shooter was placing all the blame on him at all he put the blame on him and the editors as well.

I really wish the editors would have let Shooter tell the story the way he wanted too cause what we got on the page was not all that great or exciting.

[carabas]

The difference between him and Didio...I wasn't comparing them. But universally loved? Really?

[Gunner Downe]

DC just doesn't seem to want my money. So my money will follow Mr. Shooter to wherever it is he turns up next. True he may lack tact, but I know I can always depend on him for an enjoyable yarn. In a world where childhood faves like Claremont and Robinson and Byrne and Miller turn out boring poo it's nice to know I can at least depend on someone.

[Pixie_Solanas]

On one hand, it's refreshing to hear a creator shoot from the hip and give us some real insight into the creative process instead of rehashed cliches straight from a marketing handbook.

However, it's hard not to wince at how easily he throws his penciller and colorist under the bus, in an entirely public forum. That's just not professional in the least.

[Blade X]

However, it's hard not to wince at how easily he throws his penciller and colorist under the bus, in an entirely public forum. That's just not professional in the least.

To be fair, he also through himself under the bus as well in that interview.

[Zero Hunter]

shooter inherited cast of characters from waid and bedard that were complex and totally modern in scope and presentation. the legion i read with waid and bedard was a PROGRESSIVE legion, an inclusive, admirable legion that i could be proud to say I read. and within three issues he had once admirable characters acting like backbiting morons and don't even get me started on what he did to the female characters. the only gratifying aspect of these issues was manapul's art that made everyone look sleek and cool, even if the things they were saying and doing were reprehensibly stupid.
.


Seriously we must have been reading two entirely differnt books then. Waids run was the worst run in the Legions 50 year history. All of his characteraztion came down to cut out charactures of what they used to be like with about as much depth as puddle on the street. His Brainiac was just a straight up total ripoff of Vril Dox from LEGION right down to look. Waid just wanted to preach at you every issue and jam his stupid young vs. old angle down our throats. I can not think of one positve thing Waids run added to the Legions history overall except for creating yet another version to make the Legion even more confusing to new readers.

Bedard did a little better but the art on his run was just so god aweful that his story severly suffered for it.

[grphxkindaguy]

It's Jim Shooter. Did anybody really expect this to end differently?
Personally, I love his new LoSH run, and I grew up on the Marvel comics put out when he was EIC, but I really am not surprised at all. Too bad really.

Ditto.

it seems that old codgers like Shooter & Byrne really enjoy shooting their mouths off and burn bridges at the same time. Its not surprising no one at the big two wants to deal w/them anymore...

[Doc Goblin]

Waid got me kind of interested in the Legion, which is more than any other writer has been able to come close to doing. Well... I guess Geoff Johns is managing that now too. But Waid started it. There was something more sophisticated about his takes on all the characters that I appreciated. I stopped reading a few issues into Bedard's run. It was just okay. The art didn't really do it for me though.

I gave Shooter's first issue a look. That's it. I can see why other readers would like it, but I sure didn't. It sucks that he had the tough relationship with editorial, but that seems to be the norm at DC unless your Grant Morrison or Geoff Johns.

[pariah-1972]

I don't really understand why an editor would want to "interfere" with someone else's work unless there was a really good reason, i mean damn just let the writer write the story and let the chips fall where they may.

[Chemical King]

Seriously we must have been reading two entirely differnt books then. Waids run was the worst run in the Legions 50 year history. All of his characteraztion came down to cut out charactures of what they used to be like with about as much depth as puddle on the street. His Brainiac was just a straight up total ripoff of Vril Dox from LEGION right down to look. Waid just wanted to preach at you every issue and jam his stupid young vs. old angle down our throats. I can not think of one positve thing Waids run added to the Legions history overall except for creating yet another version to make the Legion even more confusing to new readers.


You are so right about Waids run. I spend months trying to figure out where the story was supposed to be. When Shooter came on board, this Legionnaires changed from being carbon copies of each other into being real characters. For me, this was pretty close to "Ultimate Legion" or "All Star Legion", if you want. Not the original version which I love, but a very cool modern version with an actual story to tell. I'm sad to see it go.

As for Shooter himself, I love that guy. He has an opinion, and he is not afraid to state it. That's a good thing in a world suffocated by political correctness. "Oh I love to work with him", "I always adored his work", "He's such a nice guy to work with" and so on - I just don't believe this "we all love each other" stuff, I prefer something honest, even if some people mistake honesty for rudeness.

But I digress. I am sad to see this Legion go, a statement I would never have thought possible during Waids tenure. And I really am wondering: How many terrible editorial lapses has Dan DiDio to make before they finally get rid of him? Countdown alone should have sufficed to fire a whole directorate, so what is going on with DC that they son't see that there's something very rotten in the state of DC-mark?

And how does Geoff Johns manage to protect his stories from DiDio????

[Samy]

Shooter didn't throw anyone "under the bus".

He gave criticism.

As a former frickin' *editor-in-chief* of Marvel Comics, he *has* to have developed the ability to very solidly say when somebody needs further education. A good editor does not coddle. A good editor sees someone in need of further training, and tells them what to work on.

That's what Shooter did. He's being honest about the book's flaws, so those involved (himself included) can learn from their mistakes and do better next time.

I'm tired of empty PR talk where everybody pretends no mistakes were made and everything was pink fluffy bunnies. People make mistakes, and it takes a real man to admit to those and try to learn from them.

There's a difference between constructive criticism and bashing. Shooter's words were the former.

I'd have laughed, if he'd have claimed that Manapul is as skilled an artist as Miller or Simonson or Byrne. That would've just been sad, empty PR talk. Manapul isn't bad, but he's nowhere near the top skill tier in the industry. There's still a lot to learn. And if Shooter wants to give him pointers, more power to him.

[Pixie_Solanas]

To be fair, he also through himself under the bus as well in that interview.

That's easy to do when you've already burned your bridges at the company and probably have no desire or need to work with them again. Can't say that about the artists.

[Samy]

How's it gonna affect the artists?

If DC hates Shooter as much as you seem to make it out to be, then if Shooter criticizes Manapul, wouldn't DC be *more* likely to hire Manapul in order to spite Shooter?

So he's actually improving the guy's job prospects.

[pariah-1972]

Shooter didn't throw anyone "under the bus".

He gave criticism.

As a former frickin' *editor-in-chief* of Marvel Comics, he *has* to have developed the ability to very solidly say when somebody needs further education. A good editor does not coddle. A good editor sees someone in need of further training, and tells them what to work on.

That's what Shooter did. He's being honest about the book's flaws, so those involved (himself included) can learn from their mistakes and do better next time.

I'm tired of empty PR talk where everybody pretends no mistakes were made and everything was pink fluffy bunnies. People make mistakes, and it takes a real man to admit to those and try to learn from them.

There's a difference between constructive criticism and bashing. Shooter's words were the former.

I'd have laughed, if he'd have claimed that Manapul is as skilled an artist as Miller or Simonson or Byrne. That would've just been sad, empty PR talk. Manapul isn't bad, but he's nowhere near the top skill tier in the industry. There's still a lot to learn. And if Shooter wants to give him pointers, more power to him.
Kudos to this post.

[DonEMC]

Seriously we must have been reading two entirely differnt books then. Waids run was the worst run in the Legions 50 year history. All of his characteraztion came down to cut out charactures of what they used to be like with about as much depth as puddle on the street. His Brainiac was just a straight up total ripoff of Vril Dox from LEGION right down to look. Waid just wanted to preach at you every issue and jam his stupid young vs. old angle down our throats. I can not think of one positve thing Waids run added to the Legions history overall except for creating yet another version to make the Legion even more confusing to new readers.

Bedard did a little better but the art on his run was just so god aweful that his story severly suffered for it.


I had such high hopes for Waid's run on Legion. I really expected brilliance. But, what I got was a mess. I just knew that Waid's love for these characters would make the book a true gem.
But, he completely changed everything and those changes weren't for the better. I thought all his characters had the same personalities and I thought there were many, like Chameleon and Starboy, that had NO personality at all throughout Waid's entire run;
I was so excited about the restart because I really wanted to like the Legion and I hadn't in several years. But, it was really bad.
Tony Bedard has never been one of my favorite writers, but I think he does solid work and I think his issues were a little bit better, but not much.
Then, Jim Shooter took over and the Legion became readable again. I didn't think it was ground-breaking work and not nearly as great as the Valiant stuff Shooter did in the 1990s, but it was good storytelling.
And a far cry away from what Waid was doing.
Each member of the Legion had personality and they were all distinct from each other. That was what kept me coming back.
I am, however, excited about the new Legion book. I liked the classic costumes a lot better than the bland costumes Barry Kitson designed. Those were so boring. The old Dave Cockrum costumes were the best and I'm glad we're going to see those -- or at least variations of them -- back on the Legion.
I hate to see Shooter dismissed, but I am looking forward to Geoff Johns' run on the book.
And I don't think Shooter was bashing Manapul at all. I think he was offering constructive criticism.

[lazlo_toth]

I think the real reason that the current Legion is being canceled is because the classic Legion is returning.

Most of us are pretty enthusiastic about the Levitz/Giffen era Legion (one of the best superteam books of all time) that Geoff Johns brought back in Action Comics and Legion of Three Worlds, right? If there was a series with that team, written by Geoff Johns, I'd definitely buy that every month.

If I didn't have close to 20 years of DC screwing up the Legion no matter who the talent was or what the premise was, I'd actually be inclined to agree with you. But let's review: since Levitz quit, the Legion has had Keith Giffen, Jason Pearson, Stuart Immonen, Mark Waid, Barry Kitson, Olivier Coipel, Roger Stern, Dan Abnett & Andy Lanning, Adam Hughes, Chris Sprouse, Gail Simone, and Dan Jurgens work on the title, among others, and every time it seemed to gain some momentum the rug got pulled out from under it in one form or another. I have no faith whatsoever that this will end well, even if a new ongoing book with Johns doing the writing is indeed in the works (and there are some very strong hints that Adventure Comics is going to be revived, which would be a perfect vehicle for a new Legion series). This new series will go for a year or two and then Johns will leave and whoever takes over will last another year and then they'll reboot it again.

It's just another example of the editorial circus that DC has become in the last couple of years. It's time for Didio to go so that somebody who actually knows what the hell he's doing can set things right.

[Blade X]

Ditto.

it seems that old codgers like Shooter & Byrne really enjoy shooting their mouths off and burn bridges at the same time. Its not surprising no one at the big two wants to deal w/them anymore...

Well the truth hurts, and MOST of the people currently working at the Big 2 can't handle the truth. That is ONE of the reasons why Shooter and Byrne can't get work with the Big 2. Those 2 guys aren't afraid to speak their minds and call a spade a spade.

[Blade X]

That's easy to do when you've already burned your bridges at the company and probably have no desire or need to work with them again. Can't say that about the artists.

Shooter said in the interview that he wanted to continue working with DC because he had child support to pay. And I'm pretty sure the artist will continue to get work from DC since he (the artist) didn't say anything bad about DC.

[Blade X]

Kudos to this post.

I second that. That post hit the nail right on the head.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Shooter didn't throw anyone "under the bus".

He gave criticism.

As a former frickin' *editor-in-chief* of Marvel Comics, he *has* to have developed the ability to very solidly say when somebody needs further education. A good editor does not coddle. A good editor sees someone in need of further training, and tells them what to work on.

That's what Shooter did. He's being honest about the book's flaws, so those involved (himself included) can learn from their mistakes and do better next time.

I'm tired of empty PR talk where everybody pretends no mistakes were made and everything was pink fluffy bunnies. People make mistakes, and it takes a real man to admit to those and try to learn from them.

There's a difference between constructive criticism and bashing. Shooter's words were the former.

I'd have laughed, if he'd have claimed that Manapul is as skilled an artist as Miller or Simonson or Byrne. That would've just been sad, empty PR talk. Manapul isn't bad, but he's nowhere near the top skill tier in the industry. There's still a lot to learn. And if Shooter wants to give him pointers, more power to him.

Ridiculous. You do not discuss matters like that in a public interview. You've got gripes? Air them within closed doors.

[Blade X]

Ridiculous. You do not discuss matters like that in a public interview. You've got gripes? Air them within closed doors.

He did that and he got fired for doing so.

[Pixie_Solanas]

He did that and he got fired for doing so.

No, i'm sure his general lack of tact and inability to work with anyone (going back to his Marvel days) did him in.

Compare the situation to the Final Crisis / JG Jones incident. You didn't see Morrison castigating Jones in the media for not getting his work out on time (or not following his script closely enough), nor did you see Jones blaming script lateness for his problems keeping a deadline. That's because those two are true professionals, not some shoot-from-the-hip crank with a bad attitude.

Some things are just better left in private, regardless of any fanboy voyeurism this interview may have provided.

[ruppan]

Shooter didn't throw anyone "under the bus".

He gave criticism.

As a former frickin' *editor-in-chief* of Marvel Comics, he *has* to have developed the ability to very solidly say when somebody needs further education. A good editor does not coddle. A good editor sees someone in need of further training, and tells them what to work on.

That's what Shooter did. He's being honest about the book's flaws, so those involved (himself included) can learn from their mistakes and do better next time.

I'm tired of empty PR talk where everybody pretends no mistakes were made and everything was pink fluffy bunnies. People make mistakes, and it takes a real man to admit to those and try to learn from them.

There's a difference between constructive criticism and bashing. Shooter's words were the former.

I'd have laughed, if he'd have claimed that Manapul is as skilled an artist as Miller or Simonson or Byrne. That would've just been sad, empty PR talk. Manapul isn't bad, but he's nowhere near the top skill tier in the industry. There's still a lot to learn. And if Shooter wants to give him pointers, more power to him.

Totally agreed.

I have no personal industry insights, but it's always seemed to me that Shooter's the type that tears people down to remake them better. I've had employers like that, and you hate them when you work for them. But....when you look back, you realize that they made you reach your potential.

Valiant is a great example. He must have pissed everyone off to get kicked out, since he was the driving force behind that line. However, during his time with Valiant, they were putting out the best books on the shelf. After their little coup, the whole line went to pot, and it was obvious that they needed Shooter.

I just wonder if Shooter's personality really fits in with the comic book industry.

[CBikle]

Some things are just better left in private, regardless of any fanboy voyeurism this interview may have provided.

In all the dozen or so other times that Shooter's been fired from something, I don't recall him making an effort to tell his side.

Maybe the guy was just tired of being the scapegoat ? (regardless of whether or not he deserved to be the scapegoat)

[kalorama]

On one hand, it's refreshing to hear a creator shoot from the hip and give us some real insight into the creative process instead of rehashed cliches straight from a marketing handbook.

However, it's hard not to wince at how easily he throws his penciller and colorist under the bus, in an entirely public forum. That's just not professional in the least.

Did we read the same interview? Because in the one I read, Shooter did no such thing. He did make some critical comments concerning Manipul's inability to meet deadlines (which, if true, is a simple statement of already known fact) and the fact that the final artwork wasn't exactly what he envisioned in his head when he wrote it (a common complaint among writers, esp. when working with artists they don't have an established working relationship with), but that doesn't come close to meeting the definition of "throwing him under the bus." Furthermore, he immediately follows those comments with several lines of praise for Manipul's work, including the suggestion that he could be one of the all-time greats and comparing his potential to Frank Miller.

I don't see this bus you're talking about.

Compare the situation to the Final Crisis / JG Jones incident. You didn't see Morrison castigating Jones in the media for not getting his work out on time (or not following his script closely enough), nor did you see Jones blaming script lateness for his problems keeping a deadline. That's because those two are true professionals, not some shoot-from-the-hip crank with a bad attitude.

(A) Morrison didn't have to say anything, because Jones did it for him. (B) Again, this is hardly the first time a writer has publicly carped about an artist on a defunct book having not followed his script closely enough (or, conversely, an artist carping because a writer's script didn't give him enough direction or was too restrictive). It happens and it's hardly a big deal, as long as it's not done in a venomous way, and that's not how Shooter did it. (C) Morrison and Jones have an established collaborative relationship, having worked together on previous projects, so the dynamic between them was undoubtedly different than Manipul and Shooter.

[Samy]

Ridiculous. You do not discuss matters like that in a public interview. You've got gripes? Air them within closed doors.
And pretend that your audience is a bunch of retards?

I prefer being talked to as an adult, thanks.

Pretending to your audience that everything's pink fluffy bunnies is incredibly patronizing.

[yoda510]

Considering the total crapfest he inherited from Waid on this title I think Shooter did a fantastic job on the series. He turned the book back into the "Legion of Super Heroes". The hole Waid dug with his horrible run was just too big to climb out of for this series.


As for his personality and the way he treated writers yeah he could be a dick, but alot of those same writers that complained the loudest about him did the best work of their carears under his tenure as EIC. Sometimes a writer needs a strong hand to reign them in a bit when they start to go off the rails, and Shooter did that very well.

I couldn't disagree more, but I never read legion before waid. I loved his run, especially after 1 year later. supergirl was a blast.

[Ontir]

I've said much of this before in a variety of forums, but here goes:

Shooter was handed onions and told to make lemonade. He gave it a great go, and turned the shlock Waid left him into the Legion in only a handful of issues. The writing was solid and with Manipul on board, he had a good partner. The book looked dynamic.

Shooter's first weakness was that he clings to his way-dated sexism, particularly as applied to Saturn Girl. Roll with the times a bit, Jim.

His second seems to be that having become the employee, he continues to behave like the EIC. From what I saw and heard of that era, I don't think he'd have tolerated someone acting out in the ways he describes in his exit interview.

The third is his inability to remember the realities of sinking books in the marketplace. How many times did he bring solid teams on to give new life to books, only to turn around a few months later and cancel them? Spider-Woman, Rom and Dazzler are 3 that come to mind immediately. He and Manipul were the last gasp that didn't catch fire in the way that was needed, particularly when DC had an alternate version for which fans were going ape. This isn't his fault, for a few years now, he's been the only one (though Waid did it voluntarily in his re-re-launch) writing the Legion who's not been allowed to write "Shooter's Legion!" What might've been better is if he and Johns had co-developed a "de-booted" Legion that would come out of "Action," "Final Crisis/Legion of 3 Worlds" and the current book. Something I've heard was, for the most part, supposed to have happen, but was abandoned.

The final thing in his interview that irks me, was the way he went after Manipul. That's not to say WHAT he was saying was without merit, but he had an opportunity to be instructive, not only to Manipul (and as a former EIC and writer, he's got some good perspective), but to artists trying to learn the craft of sequential storytelling. An opportunity wasted. I know he's sent out something of a retraction, but he'd said much of that before, the sniping bits still stand, and were an opportunity to instruct, still wasted.

[kalorama]

The final thing in his interview that irks me, was the way he went after Manipul. That's not to say WHAT he was saying was without merit, but he had an opportunity to be instructive, not only to Manipul (and as a former EIC and writer, he's got some good perspective), but to artists trying to learn the craft of sequential storytelling. An opportunity wasted. I know he's sent out something of a retraction, but he'd said much of that before, the sniping bits still stand, and were an opportunity to instruct, still wasted.

I couldn't disagree more. In fact, I believe Shooter did exactly what you're accusing him of having not done. He complimented Manipul on the thinks he things he already does well and (drawing, imagery) and spoke very specifically about the areas he needs to improve in (storytelling and visually conveying information to the reader).


“I must add that Francis Manapul is going to be great someday – maybe one of the best of all time,” Shooter remarked. “He already shows flashes of brilliance. He works very hard and seems to care a lot – but that and a $1.85 gets you a cup of coffee. As soon as Francis groks what business he’s in – storytelling – as soon as he realizes that conveying the story and information clearly, at a glance, is first priority, he’ll be a contender. It’s not just about making cool shots that vaguely relate to what was asked for in the script. It’s about thinking things through until you can come up with just-as-cool shots that effectively deliver all the content required; about making the visual storytelling ‘read’ effortlessly. Francis is incapable of drawing a dull picture, so if he ever really grasps the importance of the story and science of storytelling, he’s going to be a hall-of-famer.

“That’s not easy, by the way. Even Frank Miller struggled with storytelling for a while – but once he grokked -- wow.”

That's about as instructive as one can expect in a brief interview whose purpose is not specifically geared towards an art tutorial. If you think Shooter's assessment was too harshly worded, I can only assume you've never been to a convention where you've either had your portfolio evaluated by a pro artist or editor or listened to such an evaluation. I guarantee you much harsher things are said. Furthermore, if you read interviews with pros who've gone through such an experience, pretty much all of them say that the harsher criticisms were more useful to their development that soft-pedaled half-praise designed not to hurt their feelings.

[Cthulhudrew]

His second seems to be that having become the employee, he continues to behave like the EIC. From what I saw and heard of that era, I don't think he'd have tolerated someone acting out in the ways he describes in his exit interview.

My reading of that first interview (and the second) is that he himself acknowledges this, and doesn't put the blame on Editorial for dealing with him the way they did. I think he doesn't feel that they dealt fairly with the rest of the creative team- by my interpretation- but he does seem to recognize his own faults.

His criticism of Manapul in the first interview is harsher than it could have been (again, acknowledged by him in the second).

I really enjoyed Shooter's Legion- it's the first time I've read much of the Legion since the 80s, actually, and it was great fun. Would have loved to have seen the entirety of the 16 issue run he had originally proposed (although I'm not really sure that Super-Lad would have been all that interesting personally). A shame it's ending.

Hope to see some more of Shooter's work again for somebody soon. He's a great storyteller in a lot of ways. I always liked his Marvel work, and his controversial run as EIC IMO showcased some of the best comics out there.

[Zero Hunter]

The third is his inability to remember the realities of sinking books in the marketplace. How many times did he bring solid teams on to give new life to books, only to turn around a few months later and cancel them? Spider-Woman, Rom and Dazzler are 3 that come to mind immediately.


Ok I have got to ask when you say Rom you are not tallking about that horrible run at the end of the series with Ditko on art are you? That was some fo the worst stuff I have ever seen on pretty much any book. It was a mercy killing to put that lame dog down after that horror fest.

[yoda510]

I still don't get why everyone is so don'w on Waid. I have liked the entire run, almost all 47 issues. But to blame Waid when he and Bedard cowrote 4 or 5 issues and then Bedard wrote the last 5 or 6 solo before Shooter took over seems pointless. I can understand people saying the issues are not entertaining or not your cup of tea, but to call them a mess seems overkill. A mess is the Flash or Wonder woman relaunch or OMD or half or more of the one year later. Waid left a cohesive, workable universe to play in and Bedard kept the seet warm and got supergirl back home. ANd as much as I can enjoy Johns if he truly takes over I hope he trims a book or two. When he gets going on too many they all seem to suffer.

[DeadXMan]

Wow. That's definitely not your usual exit interview.

I think he's a bit too harsh with his assessment of Manful, but I can't blame him for feeling ticked at editorial dicking around with his stories. Especially if the developments with Dream Girl as printed in issue 47 weren't his idea.

really I thought he prised him vary well and gave valuable advise on not make a bunch of ubber cool panels, but be able to tell the story off the art alone.

It is a dying trade in comics

[Ontir]

I couldn't disagree more. In fact, I believe Shooter did exactly what you're accusing him of having not done. He complimented Manipul on the thinks he things he already does well and (drawing, imagery) and spoke very specifically about the areas he needs to improve in (storytelling and visually conveying information to the reader).

There was nothing specific about it. He could've given detail, the where, why and how, but chose not to. Basically he said, "He didn't translate my story accurately..." but gave no information as to how. Someone with his experience could've illuminated, at least one instance, in an informative way.

That's about as instructive as one can expect in a brief interview whose purpose is not specifically geared towards an art tutorial. If you think Shooter's assessment was too harshly worded, I can only assume you've never been to a convention where you've either had your portfolio evaluated by a pro artist or editor or listened to such an evaluation. I guarantee you much harsher things are said. Furthermore, if you read interviews with pros who've gone through such an experience, pretty much all of them say that the harsher criticisms were more useful to their development that soft-pedaled half-praise designed not to hurt their feelings.

If you're going to give a lecture, go all the way. Further, he must've felt he did it wrong, as he's now apologized - after a fashion.

[Ontir]

Ok I have got to ask when you say Rom you are not tallking about that horrible run at the end of the series with Ditko on art are you? That was some fo the worst stuff I have ever seen on pretty much any book. It was a mercy killing to put that lame dog down after that horror fest.

I mean at the end when Ditko and P Craig Russell did some really interesting work with a decent story. I only began reading Rom around that time, because of a cross-over, and then the change in creative made the book more interesting and I stayed. Regardless of where we stand on the book, the point is, a new team was brought in to bolster sales and the book was almost immediately canceled there after.

[Ontir]

My reading of that first interview (and the second) is that he himself acknowledges this, and doesn't put the blame on Editorial for dealing with him the way they did. I think he doesn't feel that they dealt fairly with the rest of the creative team- by my interpretation- but he does seem to recognize his own faults.

His criticism of Manapul in the first interview is harsher than it could have been (again, acknowledged by him in the second).

I really enjoyed Shooter's Legion- it's the first time I've read much of the Legion since the 80s, actually, and it was great fun. Would have loved to have seen the entirety of the 16 issue run he had originally proposed (although I'm not really sure that Super-Lad would have been all that interesting personally). A shame it's ending.

Hope to see some more of Shooter's work again for somebody soon. He's a great storyteller in a lot of ways. I always liked his Marvel work, and his controversial run as EIC IMO showcased some of the best comics out there.

He talked about how he was fired the first time for complaining too much. When he was Marvel's EIC, he bitched loudly and often about those he considered whiners, even going so far to say that he'd been told that he could sue DC - and win - for ownership of Karate Kid, Princess Projectra, Nemesis Kid and Ferro Lad, among other characters he created, but wouldn't because he'd made a deal long ago. It's an inconsistency.

[pariah-1972]

Have to admit that Super-lad was lame sounding i would love to know what he actually had planned that didn't make it.

I wonder if Shooter has ever tried to draw anything himself? i was re-reading his wiki profile and even Curt Swan said he had excellent informative breakdowns.

and if Manupaul feels slighted in any way he can tell his side of the story noone as far as i know is stopping him from doing that .

I hope that there is no hard feelings between either of them and they both continue to find good work.

[CBikle]

The funny thing is that both DC and Jim Shooter really need each other and don't realize it.

DC needs someone to come in and start kicking some ass at the editorial level and Shooter needs a job.

I'm not saying have him replace Didio, just give him the title of "Editorial Troubleshooter" and turn him loose (just keep him away from Geoff Johns).

[Samy]

Shooter is the best, most successful editor in the history of the comic book industry.

Under no other editor has as much goodness been achieved.

DC would be really smart to snatch him up.

If they let personality conflicts get in the way of business sense, they deserve their sliding sales.

[Zero Hunter]

I still don't get why everyone is so don'w on Waid. I have liked the entire run, almost all 47 issues. But to blame Waid when he and Bedard cowrote 4 or 5 issues and then Bedard wrote the last 5 or 6 solo before Shooter took over seems pointless. I can understand people saying the issues are not entertaining or not your cup of tea, but to call them a mess seems overkill. A mess is the Flash or Wonder woman relaunch or OMD or half or more of the one year later. Waid left a cohesive, workable universe to play in and Bedard kept the seet warm and got supergirl back home. ANd as much as I can enjoy Johns if he truly takes over I hope he trims a book or two. When he gets going on too many they all seem to suffer.


The problem with his run is that it just wasn't the Legion. The only thing that made it seem like the Legion was the names of the characters. Outside of that he could have told his story with all new characters and set it 100 years in the future.

[CBikle]

The problem with his run is that it just wasn't the Legion. The only thing that made it seem like the Legion was the names of the characters. Outside of that he could have told his story with all new characters and set it 100 years in the future.

Waid is such a paint-by-numbers, old-school comics writer, you'd have thought his Legion would have been a little more traditional, but instead he goes outside the box when he probably shouldn't have.

Waid's LSH felt like it was filtered through the WildStorm Universe.

[Ontir]

Have to admit that Super-lad was lame sounding i would love to know what he actually had planned that didn't make it.

We all know there are reasons they're staying away from "Superboy" right now. "Super Lad" would've worked really well for the Legion.

I also have to agree with Samy. Shooter really turned Marvel around. He's said that if it hadn't been for Roy Thomas licensing Star Wars, that Marvel would've died. He was smart enough to realize that, and then move Heaven and Earth to get the whole line in order, really re-building the Marvel brand which had slid since the heyday of Lee, Kirby, Ditko, Thomas, the Buscemas and Romita. In the 70's it was, by my circle's accounting, an also-ran. By the early 80's we were wondering if DC, with all its iconic characters, could even compete, despite being a part of Time-Warner?

I think that the various incarnations of Marvel, post-Shooter, have been incredibly pale imitations of his era. There are only a handful of Marvel books I even look at anymore, let alone buy and at present, I can't see that changing.

[carabas]

Shooter is the best, most successful editor in the history of the comic book industry.

Under no other editor has as much goodness been achieved.Jeanette Kahn can kick his as any day of the week.
And if there are a sizeable number of artists and writers who will not work under him, how good can he really be?

[kalorama]

There was nothing specific about it. He could've given detail, the where, why and how, but chose not to. Basically he said, "He didn't translate my story accurately..." but gave no information as to how. Someone with his experience could've illuminated, at least one instance, in an informative way.

That (A) wasn't the purpose of the interview; it wasn't meant to be an art tutorial and (B) isn't Shooter's job. He was hired to write the book. Nurturing and developing talent is the editor's job. Besides, given that he's no longer employed by DC (at DC's request), he really isn't under any obligation to offer free detailed skills instruction to their paid employees.

If you're going to give a lecture, go all the way. Further, he must've felt he did it wrong, as he's now apologized - after a fashion.

Except it wasn't actually an apology. He never said he was sorry for anything he said in the first interview (in fact, the interviewer notes that he stands by everything he said). All he really did was, in the wake of the (rather predictable) backlash, reiterate to the people who were bent out of shape that whatever he said about anyone else, he also made it clear that the book's demise was his own fault. He never actually takes back or apologizes for one word of what he originally said.

“Anyway, upon reading the interview, I wonder now if people will focus on the things I said regarding Francis like he’s ‘going to be great someday, maybe one of the best of all time,’ ‘great designer,’ ‘incapable of drawing a dull picture,’ etc. or just think that I’m blaming him for the book’s demise. Read it again. I blame me.

Doesn't sound like he has much regret to me. In fact, the second piece ends with him basically reiterating what he said about Manipul in the first one, that the guy has skills and lots of potential, but still has some work to do to fulfill it.

[kalorama]

I wonder if Shooter has ever tried to draw anything himself? i was re-reading his wiki profile and even Curt Swan said he had excellent informative breakdowns.

He did some breakdown work for a few Marvel books during his tenure as EIC. The one that comes immediately to mind is Spectacular Spider-Man, with Jim Mooney doing the finishes. I have no idea what issue or year, but I vaguely recall the story featured Killer Shrike (God only knows why I remember that). And while his layouts may have been "informative" I seem to recall them being rather dull. I agree with his assessment that storytelling is more important to good comics than flashy pictures that don't tell the reader anything, but going too far in the other direction of having pages that are all utilitarian purpose with no style or pizazz isn't much better.

[kalorama]

Jeanette Kahn can kick his as any day of the week.

Jeannette Kahn wasn't an editor, she was the publisher.

[carabas]

Jeannette Kahn wasn't an editor, she was the publisher.
I just grabbed a random Sandman book, and it says "Jeanette Kahn: President and editor in chief".

[kalorama]

I just grabbed a random Sandman book, and it says "Jeanette Kahn: President and editor in chief".

I just grabbed a random Batman and the Outsiders book (from the original run) and it says Jeannette Kahn, Publisher and President. Underneath it says Dick Giordano, Vice Pres. and Executive Editor. And as I recall, from DC's own in-house editorials as well as the fan press (which was still printed on paper back then), Giordano was the one who was largely in charge of the overall editorial/creative direction of the line during that period.

[thehod]

I picked up the first issue of Shooters Legion and immediatly decided that was going to be my last.

Mabe it was the fact that this Legion run had been fairly uninspiring for a while. I'd had high hopes for the title, and indeed the first six issue or so were great, but it all got a little dragged out and never seemed to go anywhere distinctive.

Maybe it was the fact that at the time I was cutting back on titles for financial reasons.

Maybe it was the fact that Shooter may have been plotting the greatest Legion epic since The Terra Mosaic, but his dialogue was straight out of the worst examples of 70s & 80s superhero comics that it physically made me wince to read some pages.

Or maybe it was all three.

Either way, I'm (again) looking forward to the new Legion series with high hopes, as the Johns stuff in Action and Legion of Three Worlds has been the best Legion stuff I've read since the early days of the Archie Legion.

[Tazirai]

Subbing to read later

[Tazirai]

Subbing to read later

[carabas]

I just grabbed a random Batman and the Outsiders book (from the original run) and it says Jeannette Kahn, Publisher and President.
Well, odd as this may seem, sometimes people have more than one job title over the course of their lifes. And as editor in chief of Vertigo, Jeanette Kahn oversaw Preacher, Sandman, Transmetropolitan, and The Invisibles. Just those four put her miles ahead of the sum total of Shooter's editorial portfolio.
Bonus points for not chasing zero writers and artists to the competition.

Edited to add a 'not' to that last line...

[Samy]

You seem to really have a hangup about this "chasing talent away" thing.

Fact is, to the very last of his tenure, Shooter kept having quality talent working on his books.

It doesn't matter if you chase people away if you still have enough of them left.

What matters is that you make good books, whatever it takes.

[DeadXMan]

now the bloody coup d'état to save DC from Dan's hand can begin:evilsmile:

[Darrell D.]

Well, odd as this may seem, sometimes people have more than one job title over the course of their lifes. And as editor in chief of Vertigo, Jeanette Kahn oversaw Preacher, Sandman, Transmetropolitan, and The Invisibles. Just those four put her miles ahead of the sum total of Shooter's editorial portfolio.
Bonus points for not chasing zero writers and artists to the competition.

Edited to add a 'not' to that last line...

Jennette Kahn was the publisher. Karen Berger is in charge of the Vertigo line.

[kalorama]

Jennette Kahn was the publisher. Karen Berger is in charge of the Vertigo line.

Yep. And whatever Kahn's title, it has been well-documented over the years that Berger was the one who drove the creative development of the Vertigo line on a day-to-day basis.

[Shellhead]

You seem to really have a hangup about this "chasing talent away" thing.

Fact is, to the very last of his tenure, Shooter kept having quality talent working on his books.

It doesn't matter if you chase people away if you still have enough of them left.

What matters is that you make good books, whatever it takes.

It's a fact that some of Marvel's top talent left during Shooter's tenure. Some made it clear that they left because of Shooter, including Steve Gerber, Roy Thomas (All-Star Squadron), Marv Wolfman (Teen Titans), Gene Colan, John Byrne (Superman, Action Comics), Frank Miller (The Dark Knight Returns), and Doug Moench. And it does matter that Shooter chased these people off, because he eventually got a very bad reputation with other comic creators. Talented British writers like Alan Moore and Neil Gaiman didn't even bother trying to work for Marvel while Shooter was there.

Shooter also wrote Secret Wars, which was really lame compared to Crisis on Infinite Earths. He attempted to replace Captain America, Iron Man and Thor with new legacy heroes. He tried to attract female readers by turning the Avengers into a mostly female team. He kept changing things (Spider-man's costume, Hulk IQ, the line-up of the FF) just for the sake of change, to generate hype.

All of these changes, along with a big increase in quality at DC, caused me to stop buying Marvel Comics. Before Shooter, I was buying nearly 20 Marvel comics every month. By 1985, I was down to nearly zero. Perhaps by coincidence, Shooter was gone by 1987, but the damage was already done.

I do give Shooter credit for a few things. He did get tough about deadlines, which I can respect. He tried to start an entire new setting (the New Universe), one which closely mirrored in our own world and would have run in real time. And he definitely battled with corporate executives to get better rights for creators.

When Shooter took over Legion again, I gave it a try. I was very dissatisfied with this Legion despite a promising first story arc, so I was hoping Shooter could bring back the magic of his early Legion run. But too much time has passed and expectations for comic book writers are higher these days. Shooter bored me with his new Legion work, so I dropped it after the first two issues.

[bfrank]

He oversaw the production of some great comics (although Claremont on X-Men predates his tenure), but he treated a lot of his employees like crap and ran the Marvel offices like a gulag to do it.
In other words, Karma's a bitch.......