Did the Mephisto deal create a new reality? [Archive]

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 06:08 AM

No.

No matter how much you don't like the new OMD/BND status quo, it is not a pocket universe, alternate universe etc. It may be tough to deal with, you may cry yourself to sleep at night wishing it wasn't so, you might hit random homeless guys on the street, but it is what it is. This is the 616 Spider-Man for the forseeable future.I am not so much arguing the story-telling realities here; I'm thinking more about the science of the thing (of which I'm admittedly no expert). So let me say right here I don't give a patootie whether or not this ever gets addressed in the books. I'm just interested in the concept behind the move, and what people think about it.

Grapeweasel

10-27-2008, 06:09 AM

No.

But it sure effed up the old one.

You can have BND.

You can have Civil War.

You can't have both.

Eye in the Sky

10-27-2008, 06:12 AM

I am not so much arguing the story-telling realities here; I'm thinking more about the science of the thing (of which I'm admittedly no expert). So let me say right here I don't give a patootie whether or not this ever gets addressed in the books. I'm just interested in the concept behind the move, and what people think about it.

In that case you could argue it's like HoM, an altered universe.

carabas

10-27-2008, 06:13 AM

In theory, yes.

He went back in time and changed events, and it has been established that, in the Marvel Universe, mucking about with the past creates paralel universes.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 06:16 AM

In that case you could argue it's like HoM, an altered universe.True enough!

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 06:18 AM

In theory, yes.

He went back in time and changed events, and it has been established that, in the Marvel Universe, mucking about with the past creates parallel universes.I think there's a goodly number of scientists who have theorized this is exactly what would happen if time were altered.

BlackToe

10-27-2008, 06:26 AM

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 06:31 AM

I would say no. Exiles had a explanation similar to this with the AoA universe. It started out 616 because it was altered within 616, but birthed a offshoot after it was supposedly resolved the moment when Bishop was sent back into time to correct it.

For those that do not know, Exiles is a team charged with protection of the MU multiverse.

Plus, Magic based time alternation usually doesnt create new realities. That is usually held to science based time travel. As theorized not quite recently by a future Dr.Doom and Reed Richards.Of course Marvel, in the main, is a more science based universe than some of it's counterparts. :biggrin:

Having said that, I'd have to see the explanation of how a magical changing of the timeline (which hasn't even been established in the case of OMD yet, anyway) significantly differs in effect than a scientific change. After all, time has still been altered as a result of the action, and, as I understand it, altering time creates new timelines and alternate realities.

Isn't that how a multiverse comes into existence in the first place -- variations at decision points?

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 06:38 AM

In that case you could argue it's like HoM, an altered universe.

its more in line with Age of Apocalypse.

A time traveler changes something in the past and creates a divergent timeline. The old timeline ceases to be due to said change and we move on from there.

The only way back is to stop the change. To stop the change you have to stop the deal, which never existed. Ah catch 22's

oldschool

10-27-2008, 06:39 AM

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 06:39 AM

its more in line with Age of Apocalypse.

A time traveler changes something in the past and creates a divergent timeline. The old timeline ceases to be due to said change and we move on from there.

The only way back is to stop the change. To stop the change you have to stop the deal, which never existed. Ah catch 22'sActually, I'm of the opinion one can never return to their previous reality if he/she does manage to somehow shift between realities. Changing a decision point doesn't destroy the other timeline/reality -- it merely creates a new timeline/reality.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 06:42 AM

I think not. The scientifically correct answer would be "yes" but I say no because that is clearly not what Marvel intended with this plot device/story direction. So, putting aside all logic (which we should do anyway when reading about a guy who can crawl walls), it is clear this is the Spidey direction for today and, by all accounts, a good number of years to come so I think the answer is no, it is still the same timeline for all storytellng purposes.A lot of literature is filled with unintended interpretations of creators work (Shakespeare's works alone bear this out).

Having said that, I agree with you Marvel probably didn't intend for the story to be interpreted in this manner.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 06:52 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time

I'm not usually a Wiki fellow, but in this case the link I posted seems to serve as a good jumping off point for a lot of the conceptual/theoretical/philosophical implications and ideas applying to the question I posed in this thread.

For those of you who like to read, enjoy! :biggrin:

oldschool

10-27-2008, 06:52 AM

A lot of literature is filled with unintended interpretations of creators work (Shakespeare's works alone bear this out).

Having said that, I agree with you Marvel probably didn't intend for the story to be interpreted in this manner.

Check and check; however, I can see this being a possible "back door strategy" if Marvel needed to retcon the retcon. But with the title being a success (modest anyway) and another year's worth of story's planned, I doubt that will happen. If they were going to go that route, I think that window of opportunity was last summer; I think they are firmly committed now.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 06:54 AM

Check and check; however, I can see this being a possible "back door strategy" if Marvel needed to retcon the retcon. But with the title being a success (modest anyway) and another year's worth of story's planned, I doubt that will happen. If they were going to go that route, I think that window of opportunity was last summer; I think they are firmly committed now.Well -- the only thing I think business people are firmly committed to is making money. :biggrin:

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 06:54 AM

Actually, I'm of the opinion one can never return to their previous reality if he/she does manage to somehow shift between realities. Changing a decision point doesn't destroy the other timeline/reality -- it merely creates a new timeline/reality.

thats a good theory but as we've seen with AOA, Marvel doesnt work like that. Xavier die'n destroyed the current timeline. The only way to restore it was to send bishop back to stop the killing from happening.

616 was gone. 616 became AOA. its not like dc were flash can vibrate at a different frequency and end up on earth 2. We are speaking of timelines. If Xavier dies, you dont get the timeline you know.

with Mephisto we have a different issue. Mephisto changes the marriage because of a deal in the present. He's a reality bender, least in the story, so technically he cant be stopped in the way that bishop took down legion. He snaps his fingers in the past and the wedding is off. To stop him, one has to stop the deal. The issue becomes the deal happened in the present time of a destroyed timeline. Its gone. You can go back in time to the split and follow a divergent line back. You cant cross over to it, because it no longer exists.

See in DC we have the multiverse in that there are 52 realities where some things happened differently. They exist unto themselves, with one link between them (not that one cant go between them).... that being mister mind and booster golds adventures in 52. Other than that, they are not reliant on any common ground. Example: In one Superman lands in Russia not kansas. Meanwhile in another superman lands in kansas. Its not as if mephisto went back and knocked the the ship ofcourse. Its two seperate events.

Clearly this is not how marvel does a time travel story. As shown through AOA, when a change happens in the past.... the timeline that it effects is destroyed. If legion had missed both Xavier and Magneto and hit Dock worker #12, the current Marvel Universe would have ceased to be, yet since Dock Worker #12 wasnt critical to many of the events in the Marvel Universe, they would still remain the same. Though DW #12's family would have drastically been altered.

You can argue that it by loose definition is a new reality because its not the same, but you cant say the old one still exists, which is why id say its an altered timeline not a new reality. Where as the DW #12 example the timeline would be mostly the same just like BND.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 06:58 AM

thats a good theory but as we've seen with AOA, Marvel doesnt work like that. Xavier die'n destroyed the current timeline. The only way to restore it was to send bishop back to stop the killing from happening.

616 was gone. 616 became AOA. its not like dc were flash can vibrate at a different frequency and end up on earth 2. We are speaking of timelines. If Xavier dies, you dont get the timeline you know.

with Mephisto we have a different issue. Mephisto changes the marriage because of a deal in the present. He's a reality bender, least in the story, so technically he cant be stopped in the way that bishop took down legion. He snaps his fingers in the past and the wedding is off. To stop him, one has to stop the deal. The issue becomes the deal happened in the present time of a destroyed timeline. Its gone. You can go back in time to the split and follow a divergent line back. You cant cross over to it, because it no longer exists.

See in DC we have the multiverse in that there are 52 realities where some things happened differently. They exist unto themselves, with one link between them (not that one cant go between them).... that being mister mind and booster golds adventures in 52. Other than that, they are not reliant on any common ground. Example: In 1 Superman lands in Russia not kansas. Meanwhile in another superman lands in kansas. Its not as if mephisto went back and knocked the the ship ofcourse. Its two seperate events.

Clearly this is not how marvel does a time travel story. As shown through AOA, when a change happens in the past.... the timeline that it effects is destroyed. If legion had missed both Xavier and Magneto and hit Dock worker #12, the current Marvel Universe would have ceased to be, yet since Dock Worker #12 wasnt critical to many of the events in the Marvel Universe, they would still remain the same. Though DW #12's family would have drastically been altered.

You can argue that it by loose definition is a new reality because its not the same, but you cant say the old one still exists, which is why id say its an altered timeline not a new reality.This would seem to imply you are a believer in the temporal finitism view of time.

oldschool

10-27-2008, 07:04 AM

Well -- the only thing I think business people are firmly committed to is making money. :biggrin:

Ha!! As Ed McMahon would say "You Are Correct Sir!!" :biggrin:

Joe Acro

10-27-2008, 07:05 AM

In theory, yes.

He went back in time and changed events, and it has been established that, in the Marvel Universe, mucking about with the past creates paralel universes.

Plus, Magic based time alternation usually doesnt create new realities. That is usually held to science based time travel. As theorized not quite recently by a future Dr.Doom and Reed Richards.
Marvel time travel is an odd thing. Sometimes, people go back in time and end up in an alternate reality (Days of Future Past, original Guardians of the Galaxy, etc.). Sometimes, people go back in time and do something that history says happened (FF meeting Rama-Tut, Doctor Strange following Sise-Neg, Blade rescuing Doom's mother, etc.). Sometimes, reality gets changed (the Strange Death of Adam Warlock, Age of Apocalypse, etc.)

There is no set method of time travel that has a set result.

So, putting aside all logic (which we should do anyway when reading about a guy who can crawl walls), it is clear this is the Spidey direction for today and, by all accounts, a good number of years to come so I think the answer is no, it is still the same timeline for all storytellng purposes.
It's not the same timeline, but is the same reality. So, I think it's an altered reality, not an alternate reality. Much like that of Age of Apocalypse (originally, at least).

Shyft

10-27-2008, 07:22 AM

well seeing as every decision/action creates a new reality where the opposite decision/action was taken, then technically yes.

Is BND in a bubble/alternate reality which will eventually be exposed and reverted? No. At least not until the next EIC decides he prefers Spider-Man married.

BlackToe

10-27-2008, 07:23 AM

Of course Marvel, in the main, is a more science based universe than some of it's counterparts. :biggrin:

Having said that, I'd have to see the explanation of how a magical changing of the timeline (which hasn't even been established in the case of OMD yet, anyway) significantly differs in effect than a scientific change. After all, time has still been altered as a result of the action, and, as I understand it, altering time creates new timelines and alternate realities.

Isn't that how a multiverse comes into existence in the first place -- variations at decision points?

Its not really a official explanation per say, more of a result of reading alot of magic based time travel stories. For instance, Thor coming back and to through time, Sise-Neg having a role in creating the universe, Magik, Dr Strange adventures, etc. Even Kulan Gath to a lesser extent.

Science on the other hand has more of a chance at creating new realities I find, but the F4 and Dr.Doom travel through time alot but the common rule of thumb in this instance, is not to fuck up reality. Dr. Doom and Reed say this alot. Even Dr.Doom's "liaisons" with the Morgan Ley Fey, former priestess of Gaea in the past, are tight lipped even to her to avoid contamination of the timeline. (Dr.Doom may have a son in the past because of this)

I dont know anything officially about the multiverse. I quit reading Exiles when Claremont came on board. But the last I heard they explained that for some reason the 616 universe is THE focal point of the multiverse events (Even though we know why). If there is a large enough change in the timeline to warrant it, it creates a offshoot or whenever there's a good WhatIf story out there that Marvel wants to revisit. These moments are "sporadic" to the characters in the MU. (But thats just a fourth wall thing I like, as it kinda includes us as characters.)

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 07:25 AM

This would seem to imply you are a believer in the temporal finitism view of time.

Honestly i feel that is Marvels view overall. being a book company they deal with beginning, middle and end.

my personal belief is the one that Reed Richards speculated on recently in Fantastic Four. AKA The River theory.

Changes in time are like boulders thrown in a river. Time will divert around the the blockage but continue on unchanged.

Example: Lincoln was shot by Booth. If i went back in time to stop that from happening.... according to the river theory Lincoln would still die. (Usually in some tragic accident) His presidential term would still be cut short and his replacement would still step up and do what he did.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 07:25 AM

It's not the same timeline, but is the same reality. So, I think it's an altered reality, not an alternate reality. Much like that of Age of Apocalypse (originally, at least).Here's one of the things an alternate reality does for Marvel, I think:

It immediately gives validity to their claim nothing but the marriage and the unmasking was undone. I'm pretty sure that's not possible with an altered timeline, but it is wholly possible when dealing with an alternate reality.

BlackToe

10-27-2008, 07:26 AM

Marvel time travel is an odd thing. Sometimes, people go back in time and end up in an alternate reality (Days of Future Past, original Guardians of the Galaxy, etc.). Sometimes, people go back in time and do something that history says happened (FF meeting Rama-Tut, Doctor Strange following Sise-Neg, Blade rescuing Doom's mother, etc.). Sometimes, reality gets changed (the Strange Death of Adam Warlock, Age of Apocalypse, etc.)

There is no set method of time travel that has a set result.

It's not the same timeline, but is the same reality. So, I think it's an altered reality, not an alternate reality. Much like that of Age of Apocalypse (originally, at least).

Exactly. Rama-Tut is a really good example.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 07:27 AM

Honestly i feel that is Marvels view overall.

my personal belief is the one that Reed Richards speculated on recently in Fantastic Four. AKA The River theory.

Changes in time are like boulders thrown in a river. Time will divert around the the blockage but continue on unchanged.

Example: Lincoln was shot by Booth. If i went back in time to stop that from happening.... according to the river theory Lincoln would still die. (Usually in some tragic accident) His presidential term would still be cut short and his replacement would still step up and do what he did.If time is linear that theory works -- but it has yet to be proven time is linear (just our perception of it is). In fact, a lot of current space/time theory is leaning toward the thought time is NOT linear.

It's also possible one goes "back in time" and stops Lincoln from being shot which then creates two distinct and separate timelines/realities.

BlackToe

10-27-2008, 07:28 AM

Honestly i feel that is Marvels view overall.

my personal belief is the one that Reed Richards speculated on recently in Fantastic Four. AKA The River theory.

Changes in time are like boulders thrown in a river. Time will divert around the the blockage but continue on unchanged.

Example: Lincoln was shot by Booth. If i went back in time to stop that from happening.... according to the river theory Lincoln would still die. (Usually in some tragic accident) His presidential term would still be cut short and his replacement would still step up and do what he did.

Thats another good theory I like reading sometimes, Time and Destiny are separated.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 07:31 AM

Thats another good theory I like reading sometimes, Time and Destiny are separated.What do you take that to mean? That one's destiny is not linked to time, and that there are multiple possibilities for one's destiny -- or that one is going to meet the same fate regardless of one's decisions?

Joe Acro

10-27-2008, 07:31 AM

Here's one of the things an alternate reality does for Marvel, I think:

It immediately gives validity to their claim nothing but the marriage and the unmasking was undone. I'm pretty sure that's not possible with an altered timeline, but it is wholly possible when dealing with an alternate reality.
But, as shown by Spider-Man's inclusion in New Avengers, his crossover with Ms. Marvel, and the Secret Invasion: Amazing Spider-Man mini, the post-OMD Spider-Man stories are not set in an alternate reality.

So, kinda like in House of M, the 616 (man, I hate numbering) universe is still intact, but changed.

An alternate reality would be a sort of convenient out, but not really what they currently aim for.

Exactly. Rama-Tut is a really good example.Especially since it involves Rama-Tut, the FF, Dr. Strange, the West Coast Avengers, and Apocalypse.

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 07:32 AM

If time is linear that theory works -- but it has yet to be proven time is linear (just our perception of it is). In fact, a lot of current space/time theory is leaning toward the thought time is NOT linear.

It's also possible one goes "back in time" and stops Lincoln from being shot which then creates two distinct and separate timelines/realities.

ahh but is perception not reality? We argue every month over what the numbers say the book is doing, and no one is ever proven wrong.... because what you perceive to be truth is truth. Or atleast its good enough for the one who sees it that way.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 07:35 AM

But, as shown by Spider-Man's inclusion in New Avengers, his crossover with Ms. Marvel, and the Secret Invasion: Amazing Spider-Man mini, the post-OMD Spider-Man stories are not set in an alternate reality.Actually, there's nothing there that proves this either way. An alternate reality can have many of the same elements as another reality, so everything you mention could exist in an alternate reality as well -- and perhaps more convincingly given the framework Marvel has stated to be the case (nothing but the marriage and the unmasking has changed).

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 07:36 AM

ahh but is perception not reality? We argue every month over what the numbers say the book is doing, and no one is ever proven wrong.... because what you perceive to be truth is truth. Or at least its good enough for the one who sees it that way.I agree, to the character who is in the alternate reality, nothing would seem amiss (as opposed to a character in an alternate timeline, I think).

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 07:36 AM

What do you take that to mean? That one's destiny is not linked to time, and that there are multiple possibilities for one's destiny -- or that one is going to meet the same fate regardless of one's decisions?

i like to think of it as you cant change the past. "So it is written, So it is done". It is final. Lincoln died tragically. One cant fix that. If you attempt, Time will just have him tragically die in some other way. It is easier than remaking the entire reality to include a life for Lincoln beyond his death.

Called, The Path of Least Resistance. What will resolve the annomally quickest??? Lincoln's Tragic death. As long as it happens the time line stays. You stop Booth... Booth's cousin Stand does it.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 07:37 AM

i like to think of it as you cant change the past. "So it is written, So it is done". It is final. Lincoln died tragically. One cant fix that. If you attempt, Time will just have him tragically die in some other way. It is easier than remaking the entire reality to include a life for Lincoln beyond his death.

Called, The Path of Least Resistance. What will resolve the annomally quickest??? Lincoln's Tragic death. As long as it happens the time line stays. You stop Booth... Booth's cousin Stand does it.You know, of course, by that logic the marriage is destined to be. :tongue:

Joe Acro

10-27-2008, 07:38 AM

Actually, there's nothing there that proves this either way. An alternate reality can have many of the same elements as another reality, so everything you mention could exist in an alternate reality as well -- and perhaps more convincingly given the framework Marvel has stated to be the case (nothing but the marriage and the unmasking has changed). But that would require the other titles that reference the post-OMD reality to also be in that alternate reality.

(Within the framework of fiction that are multiple alternate realities that contain the exact same events of all those titles, but that's a separate discussion.)

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 07:39 AM

But that would require the other titles that reference the post-OMD reality to also be in that alternate reality.

(Within the framework of fiction that are multiple alternate realities that contain the exact same events of all those titles, but that's a separate discussion.)Has there been any indication this isn't so?

Joe Acro

10-27-2008, 07:40 AM

Has there been any indication this isn't so?
I haven't read much involving Spidey since OMD, I have to say. So I don't really know.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 07:42 AM

I haven't read much involving Spidey since OMD, I have to say. So I don't really know.Yeah, neither have I lately -- and that reading would have to extend throughout all the books covering down on the MU as well. My suspicion, however, is Marvel has done nothing (story-wise) to close off the possibility of an alternate reality as a result of the Mephisto deal.

oldschool

10-27-2008, 07:56 AM

Yeah, neither have I lately -- and that reading would have to extend throughout all the books covering down on the MU as well. My suspicion, however, is Marvel has done nothing (story-wise) to close off the possibility of an alternate reality as a result of the Mephisto deal.

That is correct and, as you posted earlier, money is the only reason to re-retcon. However, I really think that since the titles are doing well enough that they will not go down that road anytime soon; it will only mess things up even further and the direction seems to be finally settled into a nice groove right now. Again, anything is possible but I think this is the way things are for at least the foreseeable future.

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 08:07 AM

You know, of course, by that logic the marriage is destined to be. :tongue:

yes i do. the question is when? In a book where it has a beginning middle and end. The hero will survive and win and get the girl. The question is where in the story is marvel going to tell the tale. The dont want the ending they want the middle to continue on and on till the end of time.... so the fact that peter and mj should end up married again.... can be put off till later in the story. Perhaps "later" being at a point they dont wish to ever take the story.

Endless Flight

10-27-2008, 08:08 AM

The hero will survive and win and get the girl. The question is where in the story is marvel going to tell the tale.

Well, it started in Annual #21. I'm not sure when it's going to be finished. Oh sure, there are going to be a few speed bumps along the way, like OMD, but it'll get finished eventually. :biggrin:

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 08:08 AM

That is correct and, as you posted earlier, money is the only reason to re-retcon. However, I really think that since the titles are doing well enough that they will not go down that road anytime soon; it will only mess things up even further and the direction seems to be finally settled into a nice groove right now. Again, anything is possible but I think this is the way things are for at least the foreseeable future.Oh, I do too. I also think, having said that, the pursuance of the current editorial direction doesn't preclude the possibility you're reading about a new reality.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 08:10 AM

yes i do. the question is when? In a book where it has a beginning middle and end. The hero will survive and win and get the girl. The question is where in the story is marvel going to tell the tale. The dont want the ending they want the middle to continue on and on till the end of time.... so the fact that peter and mj should end up married again.... can be put off till later in the story. Perhaps "later" being at a point they dont wish to ever take the story.See, I'm with Neo here -- I don't like the idea of pre-destination. :biggrin:

oldschool

10-27-2008, 08:20 AM

Oh, I do too. I also think, having said that, the pursuance of the current editorial direction doesn't preclude the possibility you're reading about a new reality.

Brain. Hurts. ****pulls out 1970's ASM's to read*****

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 08:20 AM

Well, it started in Annual #21. I'm not sure when it's going to be finished. Oh sure, there are going to be a few speed bumps along the way, like OMD, but it'll get finished eventually. :biggrin:

no it started with Amazing Fantasy #15. It ends with ________. Marvel will stay in the middle to tell stories as that is where the money is.

So the question is, will the eventual re-marriage come in the final chapter of the story or the next chapter?

That being said, do you think marvel has any intentions of leaving the chapter they are in.....

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 08:23 AM

Brain. Hurts. ****pulls out 1970's ASM's to read*****I'll get that fishbowl to explode yet! :tongue:

Can you even begin to imagine what Leocomix is going to say in this thread? :biggrin:

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 08:23 AM

See, I'm with Neo here -- I don't like the idea of pre-destination. :biggrin:

howd that work for Neo?

he was predestined to be the one, he was predestined to make the choice....

He made the choice for love not Zion, yet at the end the truce seems to be something that is unstable.... architect said "for now"

It could be the loop was meant to go that way and that the architect lied to Neo about the choice his predecessors made.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 08:25 AM

So the question is, will the eventual re-marriage come in the final chapter of the story or the next chapter?It's a question. There probably is no such thing as 'The' question in terms of the context of this thread.

That being said, do you think marvel has any intentions of leaving the chapter they are in...Sure -- when they think it becomes profitable to do so.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 08:27 AM

howd that work for Neo?

he was predestined to be the one, he was predestined to make the choice....

He made the choice for love not Zion, yet at the end the truce seems to be something that is unstable.... architect said "for now"

It could be the loop was meant to go that way and that the architect lied to Neo about the choice his predecessors made.That's why I disagree with people who thought the last two movies weren't as interesting as the first one. From a philosophical viewpoint, all the heavy lifting, so to speak, got examined in the last two movies.

[And the beauty of the structure of all those movies is there was no definitive answer(s) provided!]

EDIT: In the context of ASM, however, and what happened in OMD, it may mean Mephisto is playing a fool's game, trying to undo something which was pre-destined in the first place. Interesting notion that will probably not be examined, anyway!

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 08:28 AM

likewise i'll add....

destiny is still a choice, to fulfill or not to.

its the same as God being the beginning and the end, while being the present. He knows your choices before you make them.... That doesnt mean you dont get to make them, just that he knows what you will pick on the menu before you do it.

Back to Lincoln. If you go back and watch Booth kill Lincoln.... does that mean Booth had no choice? Or does it mean that you already knew what he would choose before he did?

Once again, Perception is reality.

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 08:29 AM

It's a question. There probably is no such thing as 'The' question in terms of the context of this thread.
Sure -- when they think it becomes profitable to do so.

true.

Though will that chapter include a married peter or not?

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 08:31 AM

destiny is still a choice, to fulfill or not to.Actually, technically that's not true. If you believe in destiny, your choices have been pre-determined -- meaning you have no choices.

Endless Flight

10-27-2008, 08:32 AM

Shade 20x6

10-27-2008, 08:32 AM

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 08:33 AM

That's why I disagree with people who thought the last two movies weren't as interesting as the first one. From a philosophical viewpoint, all the heavy lifting, so to speak, got examined in the last two movies.

[And the beauty of the structure of all those movies is there was no definitive answer(s) provided!]

First one was the best, But two had lots of destiny vs choice in it. "Purpose, Mr Anderson. Purpose is what defines us."

Three was more a of a mathematical journey. The One plus his Antithesis = Nothing. Neo being 1 + Agent smith being -1 = 0 aka the death of agent smith virus.

EDIT: In the context of ASM, however, and what happened in OMD, it may mean Mephisto is playing a fool's game, trying to undo something which was pre-destined in the first place. Interesting notion that will probably not be examined, anyway!

lol yeah back to OMD....

Is it not a fools goal to change the past? Would it not be better to change the future with the present.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 08:34 AM

Though will that chapter include a married peter or not?Who knows? That'll be determined through the whims and wishes of a future group of creators -- some of whom will no doubt remember the marriage in the same sort of nostalgic terms that a lot of today's fans and creators remembered the single Spider-Man in.

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 08:34 AM

You asked when the marriage story will take place. I said it already started in Annual #21.

:biggrin:

Absolutely. It created a universe in which Peter and MJ were never married.

lol

except that timeline is gone now.

Endless Flight

10-27-2008, 08:35 AM

Who knows? That'll be determined through the whims and wishes of a future group of creators -- some of whom will no doubt remember the marriage in the same sort of nostalgic terms that a lot of today's fans and creators remembered the single Spider-Man in.

We can only hope. Some of these guys are our age down there at Marvel and they are living back in the 70s. I'm nostalgic for the past, but that doesn't mean I want to relive it.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 08:38 AM

First one was the bestActually, I think The AniMatrix was the best! :biggrin:

lol yeah back to OMD....

Is it not a fools goal to change the past? Would it not be better to change the future with the present. Well, if the marriage is destined to happen, then it really doesn't matter when one tries to undo it, does it? :eek:

ZT4

10-27-2008, 08:38 AM

Absolutely. It created a universe in which Peter and MJ were never married.

Like oldschool mentioned in another thread, Marvel should have just done a clean reboot instead of trying to mesh together two things that don't fit.

Much as how we are seeing reboots like Superman Returns and The Incredible Hulk borrow "aspects" of previous movies in their canon whilst ignoring the remainder, this was the likely intention with ASM...only, as you point out, it doesnt translate too well to a new reader or even an existing one, it simply muddies the waters.

We got a fresh reboot eight years ago, but Marvel didnt join the dots with USM, and thus we're stuck with a universe than wants to reboot, but can't...it's EXACTLY how D.C were when they rebooted some of their characters, but left others alone

No.

No matter how much you don't like the new OMD/BND status quo, it is not a pocket universe, alternate universe etc. It may be tough to deal with

Not at all, it's perfectly easy to accept, what was once a "natural timeline" is now going back on what made it unique, time was altered, the original reality is gone. Fact.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 08:39 AM

except that timeline is gone now.Is that a for sure -- or just your take on things?

Shade 20x6

10-27-2008, 08:39 AM

lol

except that timeline is gone now.

Yeah, the original timeline ended once the deal was made. Thus, the original universe ended, replaced by the current one, where a lot of things are similar but some big stuff is different (no marriage, no pregnancy).

I really don't see how it's any different than the MC2 universe, which was exactly the same as the 616 until the end of the Gathering of Five, which created a divergent timeline.

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 08:40 AM

Actually, technically that's not true. If you believe in destiny, your choices have been pre-determined -- meaning you have no choices.

yes and no. Like in the matrix. Neo was destined to do what he did whether he believed it or not.

Likewise just because you may be destined to do one thing does not mean you arent destined to do another.

Destiny with choice means you have two destinies. You will do A or B at any point in your life. These choices will Result in C or D and Ultimately you will end with X or Y.

You are in control of the choices but ultimately you will do X or Y. Even on a spiritual religious level you are down to accept or deny. All the choices lead you to one of two destinies.

But i to like to not think about it in such ways. Though destiny explains deja vu pretty well.

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 08:41 AM

Is that a for sure -- or just your take on things?

Based on Age of Apocalypse in established time travel scenerio's in marvel that would be truth. Unfortunately until we get a creator or a story to confirm it id have to go its my take on things based on established past.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 08:42 AM

We can only hope. Some of these guys are our age down there at Marvel and they are living back in the 70s. I'm nostalgic for the past, but that doesn't mean I want to relive it.I loved the 70s era Spider-Man -- but the trouble with trying to recreate it (or any classic-era Spider-Man) is that, at best, the attempt will likely result in little more than a pale imitation of the original.

b4ustandsi

10-27-2008, 08:43 AM

its still 616 U but that doesnt mean marvel can changed its mind. after all, back in the mid or late 90s marvel had said several 616 characters went to the ultraverse universe and when that universe flopped, marvel said those characters were not from 616

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 08:43 AM

Actually, I think The AniMatrix was the best! :biggrin:

Well, if the marriage is destined to happen, then it really doesn't matter when one tries to undo it, does it? :eek:

that depends on if you believe the past is structured as i do or not. By the river theory it is pointless, perhaps mephisto subscribes to a different theory.

ZT4

10-27-2008, 08:45 AM

Yeah, the original timeline ended once the deal was made. Thus, the original universe ended, replaced by the current one, where a lot of things are similar but some big stuff is different (no marriage, no pregnancy).

I really don't see how it's any different than the MC2 universe, which was exactly the same as the 616 until the end of the Gathering of Five, which created a divergent timeline.

And let's not forget that if the reboot hadnt occured, Tom was going to bring back Mayday and Mackie would have taken over ASM with that in mind, but he insisted on bringing back Aunt May with Byrne. I wonder how things would have been had they opted to keep Mayday?

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 08:46 AM

I really don't see how it's any different than the MC2 universe, which was exactly the same as the 616 until the end of the Gathering of Five, which created a divergent timeline.

because the original timeline still existed in parallel to the MC2 timeline. MC2 is the perfect example of a divergent reality. It is based on an event that happened but not the way 616 has it recorded. Its not a time travel snafu. Its a different universe entirely.

616 has now become BND616. 616 OMD is gone. the only thing that is even close is the parallel world that is MC2, where in pete gets married but loses a leg in gathering of the five.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 08:48 AM

Destiny with choice means you have two destinies. You will do A or B at any point in your life. These choices will Result in C or D and Ultimately you will end with X or Y. Where the heck are you coming by this definition? Destiny is "a predetermined course of events (Websters)". One's awareness of destiny is open for debate (for those who believe everything has already been established and decided), but the concept of having a choice is antithetical to the concept of destiny.

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 08:48 AM

btw thanks to Jim for this thread. Boy is this a fun one to discuss.

The Shadow

10-27-2008, 08:49 AM

You can have BND.

You can have Civil War.

You can't have both.

Sure I can.

I have em both. Read em both and liked em both.

I think CW set up BND quite well and look forward to the resolution of the many mysteries.

To answer the thread, no I don't think it created anything new. Just changed the existing one.

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 08:50 AM

Where the heck are you coming by this definition? Destiny is "a predetermined course of events (Websters)". One's awareness of destiny is open for debate (for those who believe everything has already been established and decided), but the concept of having a choice is antithetical to the concept of destiny.

Youre the one who brought up the matrix. In it we see neo is destined to be the chosen one and save everything. The issue is there are two ways to do it. We arent really sure in the end if he took the way he was suppose to take or if he took a new choice.

I purpose that either were his destiny, in that he had two possible destinies competing for his choice.

Think one good(selfless) and one bad (selfish)

Shade 20x6

10-27-2008, 08:51 AM

because the original timeline still existed in parallel to the MC2 timeline. MC2 is the perfect example of a divergent reality. It is based on an event that happened but not the way 616 has it recorded. Its not a time travel snafu. Its a different universe entirely.

616 has now become BND616. 616 OMD is gone. the only thing that is even close is the parallel world that is MC2, where in pete gets married but loses a leg in gathering of the five.

Yeah, the main difference now is that the divergent timeline overwrote the previous one, rather than simply existing alongside of it.

So now we're left with MU 616X, or 616 2.0, or what have you. Not the same as the original 616, but essentially it's "upgrade" (or downgrade, IMO).

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 08:52 AM

that depends on if you believe the past is structured as i do or not. By the river theory it is pointless, perhaps mephisto subscribes to a different theory.Here's one for your noodle -- it's at least possible that whatever God Mephisto is trying to thwart already knows the structure of Her/His universe -- and knows Mephisto is doomed to fail regardless of what he does -- that, indeed, part of his punishment is suffering under the illusion he can effect change.

CyberHubbs

10-27-2008, 08:53 AM

Shade 20x6

10-27-2008, 08:55 AM

Shade 20x6

10-27-2008, 08:56 AM

ZT4

10-27-2008, 08:56 AM

That's why the Angel visits Peter and assures him, point blank, that he and MJ will survive this and raise a family. Marvel gave away the ending of BND (because, according to them, BND will last indefinatly) just so readers could jump off with this notion that "Oh yeah, there going to make it" or to better enjoy BND knowing that the ending was set in stone, and anything in-between is just stretching that out infinitly.

I've seen Archie comics do something similar.

Shade 20x6

10-27-2008, 08:57 AM

That's why the Angel visits Peter and assures him, point blank, that he and MJ will survive this and raise a family. Marvel gave away the ending of BND (because, according to them, there is no ending) just so readers could jump off with this notion that "Oh yeah, there going to make it" or to better enjoy BND knowing that the ending was set in stone, and anything in-between is just stretching that out infinitly.

I've seen Archie comics do something similar.

That's a good point, I forgot all about that.

The question is, did this event still come to pass, or did Peter FUBAR it with the deal?

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 08:58 AM

Yeah, the main difference now is that the divergent timeline overwrote the previous one, rather than simply existing alongside of it.

So now we're left with MU 616X, or 616 2.0, or what have you. Not the same as the original 616, but essentially it's "upgrade" (or downgrade, IMO).

exactly. Though id call that a modified timeline and not a new reality. (though i think upgrade works for my taste... to each his own)

I dont think marvel allows time travel to make divergent reality aka universes.... it seems to end the current timeline

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 09:00 AM

CyberHubbs

10-27-2008, 09:01 AM

The difference is that those events affected potential futures, and not 20 years worth of pre-existing continuity.

This is true. I'm not arguing that. But in-comic, those events would have technically changed the MU reality, or could have. The MU would have eventually become Days of Future Past, but Rachel changed all of that.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 09:02 AM

Youre the one who brought up the matrix. In it we see neo is destined to be the chosen one and save everything. The issue is there are two ways to do it. We arent really sure in the end if he took the way he was suppose to take or if he took a new choice.

I purpose that either were his destiny, in that he had two possible destinies competing for his choice.

Think one good(selfless) and one bad (selfish)Actually, I don't think that's the root philosophical question being explored in that part of The Matrix. I think those questions are:

1. Does Destiny exist?
2. If it does, does it matter if you believe in it or not?

Neo's journey is an interesting exploration of those questions.

CyberHubbs

10-27-2008, 09:02 AM

Still "a" 616, you mean. :biggrin:

I prefer 'The' 616. Sounds more gangsta.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 09:03 AM

btw thanks to Jim for this thread. Boy is this a fun one to discuss.Thanks. I knew I'd enjoy it -- I'm glad other people do, too. :biggrin:

ZT4

10-27-2008, 09:05 AM

That's a good point, I forgot all about that.

The question is, did this event still come to pass, or did Peter FUBAR it with the deal?

I'm sure of it. Quesada's use of religious symbolism is pretty major. If you can't hide anything from God, then God will find a way of warning to the best of his/her/it's ability to ensure the victims of a hell-lord have a chance to survive...and Mehpisto stating that Peter and MJ's souls would remember probably had something to do with giving them a "fair chance" of reuniting to maintain the balance such a reality-warping would create, in truth, his own "consequence" of PLAYING "God"

Or alternativly, you can just assume the Peter and MJ that Marvel said goodbye to in Fraction's annual (it's pretty obvious that was set up as an ambigious final story) rejected Mephisto's offer when he came calling, or just went underground and started a family in the slums of the city (heavily indicated by how the girl in OMD was attired)

Which leads to another thought...as you state, this is a divergent reality (and divergent realitys can share exact days and moments, with slight differences), so what's stopping Mephisto from pulling a vision of Peter and MJ's daughter from the reality where Peter and MJ are indeed raising that family just to pick apart this version?

I prefer 'The' 616. Sounds more gangsta.

Nowadays everybody wants to talk like they got something to say, but nothing comes out when they move their lips, just a bunch of gibberish. Motherf*ckers act like they forgot how to write Spidey.:cool:

Regulus B.

10-27-2008, 09:08 AM

Still "a" 616, you mean. :biggrin:

616 subworlds A and B?

ZT4

10-27-2008, 09:09 AM

Microverse baby.

I still have the "Spidey's Totally Tiny Adventure" annuals. Good stuff.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 09:10 AM

616 subworlds A and B?There's potentially a ton more than that. The developments in ASM aren't the only time the timeline has been played with. Shoot, just think about the What If? stories alone! :eek:

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 09:10 AM

Here's one for your noodle -- it's at least possible that whatever God Mephisto is trying to thwart already knows the structure of Her/His universe -- and knows Mephisto is doomed to fail regardless of what he does -- that, indeed, part of his punishment is suffering under the illusion he can effect change.

To talk of that i will have to grant you that mephisto is messing with God, I believe he is not and never has.... other than to use his name in vain while trying to convince people he is satan.

But i'll play along for now because i like your comment....

God, knowing what choices Peter will make before he makes them, should already know that peter will say yes to the deal and thus change time. God would therefor have taken that into his planning.... Making Mephisto's deal pointless to spite God because he was counting on it.

Though i do like your theory...Mephisto given the power to change things but not the power to achieve his goals, only to think that he will.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 09:11 AM

Which leads to another thought...as you state, this is a divergent reality (and divergent realitys can share exact days and moments, with slight differences), so what's stopping Mephisto from pulling a vision of Peter and MJ's daughter from the reality where Peter and MJ are indeed raising that family just to pick apart this version?Nothing -- except Mephisto would have to both be aware of alternative realities and have heretofore untold abilities allowing him to cross between those realities.

ZT4

10-27-2008, 09:13 AM

So Mephisto is Unicron? (since Transformers mythology dictates that he's the exact same character in every alternate reality)

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 09:14 AM

This is true. I'm not arguing that. But in-comic, those events would have technically changed the MU reality, or could have. The MU would have eventually become Days of Future Past, but Rachel changed all of that.Or she changed nothing, and simply crossed over into a separate, different reality.

Regulus B.

10-27-2008, 09:16 AM

There's potentially a ton more than that. The developments in ASM aren't the only time the timeline has been played with. Shoot, just think about the What If? stories alone! :eek:

Oh snap. Where are they going to have room to store all the boxes with all those alternate universes?

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 09:17 AM

To talk of that i will have to grant you that mephisto is messing with God, I believe he is not and never has.... other than to use his name in vain while trying to convince people he is satan.Please note I didn't actually phrase that so as to make an assumption Mephisto is supposed to be the Christian Devil! :smile:

B
ut i'll play along for now because i like your comment....

God, knowing what choices Peter will make before he makes them, should already know that peter will say yes to the deal and thus change time. God would therefor have taken that into his planning.... Making Mephisto's deal pointless to spite God because he was counting on it.

Though i do like your theory...Mephisto given the power to change things but not the power to achieve his goals, only to think that he will.That seems to me to be a pretty good definition of being "damned", I think.

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 09:17 AM

Eh. One could say that Rachel Summers going back in time created a new reality different from the one that would eventually become Days of Future Past. Or that Bishop facing Onslaught stopped his own future from occurring, creating a divergent timeline where the X-Men did not die after all. Him killing the Messiah Baby in Messiah Complex would have done the same thing, stopping a future that Marvel has predicted would come to pass if we stayed on the current course.

This is pretty much the norm for the MU. So...a new reality, sorta. But it is still 616.

Bishop and Onslaught is a fun one... as established in AOA when you kill your reason for existing you vanish. Legion ceases to be upon killing Xavier.

How is it that Bishop coming back to stop the X-men from die'n doesnt result in him ceasing to be..... Perhaps it is the fact that the information about this time is scarce. More over perhaps he was suppose to go back and save them and it was written that way in history. The even that stops his time from existing is the birth of the new mutant. If he kills her, he should cease to be.... thus completing his goal. though you already said all that in less words i think.

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 09:20 AM

Actually, I don't think that's the root philosophical question being explored in that part of The Matrix. I think those questions are:

1. Does Destiny exist?
2. If it does, does it matter if you believe in it or not?

Neo's journey is an interesting exploration of those questions.

3. If it does exist does one have to follow it or does choice override it?

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 09:22 AM

3. If it does exist does one have to follow it or does choice override it?If choice overrides it, then it's not destiny.

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 09:24 AM

Please note I didn't actually phrase that so as to make an assumption Mephisto is supposed to be the Christian Devil! :smile:

Oh i know you didnt, just covering my butt in case some who like to argue the Mephisto is the devil thing... go well you said X in this thread....

That seems to me to be a pretty good definition of being "damned", I think.

lol, yeah thats a good one alright.

I still find it funny to think about the fact that if God knows all before it happens how a deal with a demon can spite him in the first place... wouldnt he know about it and be expecting it / planned for it?

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 09:24 AM

If choice overrides it, then it's not destiny.

not exactly, again back to what i purposed. What if he has two competing destinies?

Him being destinied to pick one or the other and the future to be in flux until then......

then again what if either choice results in the same recourse?

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 09:26 AM

not exactly, again back to what i purposed. What if he has two competing destinies?

Him being destinied to pick one or the other and the future to be in flux until then......

then again what if either choice results in the same recourse?I think it could be argued that's what opens the door to alternate realities.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 09:27 AM

I still find it funny to think about the fact that if God knows all before it happens how a deal with a demon can spite him in the first place... wouldnt he know about it and be expecting it / planned for it?Unless it's all part of a plan, and things are spinning out exactly as they were supposed to!

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 09:29 AM

Oh snap. Where are they going to have room to store all the boxes with all those alternate universes?As Stephen King once noted, it's not the concept of time but the concept of size that eventually defeats us. :tongue:

cpahl2000

10-27-2008, 09:32 AM

I really don´t know if he created a new reality with the deal but something happened and will happen. The deal is a giving-taking thing, mephisto erased a pre-existed reality to established a new one, not to mention he altered minds, events, situations that were there. The deal will cause something or would if somebody used it but marvel thinks it´s the best thing and won´t go that way but it´d cause something because a variety of things were altered, a great plot to a massive event.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 09:33 AM

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 09:33 AM

I think it could be argued that's what opens the door to alternate realities.

not exactly. He again is destined to choose one or the other. What if the choice doesnt matter.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 09:36 AM

not exactly. He again is destined to choose one or the other. What if the choice doesnt matter.If the choice doesn't matter than he really has no choice, does he?

Destiny seems very much entrenched in the "time is a river/time is linear" concept, to me.

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 09:41 AM

If the choice doesn't matter than he really has no choice, does he?

Destiny seems very much entrenched in the "time is a river/time is linear" concept, to me.

then i guess it comes down to do you believe choice is real or an illusion?

River/time is a theory on the past not the future. Future being in a state of constant flux means that it is not determined. The past is written and not changeable.

Destiny really has nothing to do with it outside of the fact that the past is the past and is destined to be that way.

Actually further looking at the river says that time will move around the obstacle and even itself out..... but eventually the obstacle will be worn away thus restoring the time line. Perhaps another traveler comes back in time and stops you from saving Lincoln. Just like Biship AOA did to Legion to stop AOA from happening.....

cpahl2000

10-27-2008, 09:49 AM

I will say I think Marvel has opened up an idea that is much, much bigger in scope than they were really prepared to deal with.

Exactly! It would be an amazing story and I really don´t think this editorial will do it, although it´d an interesting story, road to salvation type of story.

cpahl2000

10-27-2008, 09:53 AM

then i guess it comes down to do you believe choice is real or an illusion?

Maybe you reached a point, this brand New life may be just an illusion Peter is living.

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 09:57 AM

Maybe you reached a point, this brand New life may be just an illusion Peter is living.

ah but is the dream world a dream or is it a reality. Unless you wake how do you really know?

Im not saying BND is a pocket world or not real. Im saying it is a new timeline that replaces the original due to the change that is made..... but the question is, with time being a river..... will it correct itself? If so When? And will Marvel ever choose to have that as a part of the story?

You cant change the past.... so shouldnt MJ and Pete end up together eventually?

The issue is marvel has the beginning of the character and we are in the middle.... they will never take it to the end of the character..... so is it at that point that he gets mj back?

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 10:06 AM

Im not saying BND is a pocket world or not real. Im saying it is a new timeline that replaces the original due to the change that is made..... but the question is, with time being a river..... will it correct itself? If so When? And will Marvel ever choose to have that as a part of the story?Well -- it IS an assumption in this case that the timeline follows the "time is a river" hypothesis. Having said that --

If time is a river, then there is really nothing to correct.

You cant change the past.... so shouldnt MJ and Pete end up together eventually?

The issue is marvel has the beginning of the character and we are in the middle.... they will never take it to the end of the character..... so is it at that point that he gets mj back?Again, to me this is relativily linear thinking -- a predetermined result argues against the notion of choice.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 10:08 AM

then i guess it comes down to do you believe choice is real or an illusion?Which, to me, is a question spawned out of "Does one believe in destiny or not?"

River/time is a theory on the past not the future. Future being in a state of constant flux means that it is not determined. The past is written and not changeable. Point taken -- though if true than Marvel isn't using this theory of time, as it flies in the face of what was actually done (changing elements of the past).

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 10:09 AM

Well -- it IS an assumption in this case that the timeline follows the "time is a river" hypothesis. Having said that --

If time is a river, then there is really nothing to correct.

Again, to me this is relativily linear thinking -- a predetermined result argues against the notion of choice.

but its not a predetermined result based on the "they are destined to be married"

Its predetermined on the fact that they already got married and time will correct itself. Think of it more as a destiny based on the fact that it already happened.

its not as if in 1962 they were destined to get married, more that since they did and the river theory suggest it cant be changed so easily... that they will again. Thats not destiny, its more of a fulfillment of a previous happening.

ZT4

10-27-2008, 10:09 AM

Maybe you reached a point, this brand New life may be just an illusion Peter is living.

Marvel have also said point blank ASM will have a huge affect on the Marvel Universe in 2009....which ought to be right around "War of Kings", so this "we're not reversing s*it crap" could easily be the same B.S that they allocated to the unmasking in Cival War.

Granted, I'm not expecting that, but it'd be a sure-fire way to make all the pro-BND toffs think "Ha, it was a major marketing stratagem all along and you fell for it, and I probably did too, but I'm a Zombie so I'll pretend I knew all along and support the marraige again, ha ha ha", and for us? We'll just tip our hats to a strategy well played and well hidden, and got people disputing which version of Spidey is superior.

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 10:11 AM

Which, to me, is a question spawned out of "Does one believe in destiny or not?"
Point taken -- though if true than Marvel isn't using this theory of time, as it flies in the face of what was actually done (changing elements of the past).

to an extent. Perhaps they will get married in the end. Thus re-establishing the marriage to the new timeline... aka evening things out. ITs just an open issue that can be left dangling.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 10:12 AM

but its not a predetermined result based on the "they are destined to be married"

Its predetermined on the fact that they already got married and time will correct itself. Think of it more as a destiny based on the fact that it already happened.

its not as if in 1962 they were destined to get married, more that since they did and the river theory suggest it cant be changed so easily... that they will again. Thats not destiny, its more of a fulfillment of a previous happening.If it was destined for the two characters to be married, then it was in effect in 1962 as well. If, however, destiny is nothing more than an intellectual concept, and time and space are in fact more open to alternate possibilities, then the only real "destiny' is that all possibilities that could happen will be realized.

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 10:13 AM

Marvel have also said point blank ASM will have a huge affect on the Marvel Universe in 2009....which ought to be right around "War of Kings", so this "we're not reversing s*it crap" could easily be the same B.S that they allocated to the unmasking in Cival War.

Granted, I'm not expecting that, but it'd be a sure-fire way to make all the pro-BND toffs think "Ha, it was a major marketing stratagem all along and you fell for it, and I probably did too, but I'm a Zombie so I'll pretend I knew all along and support the marraige again, ha ha ha", and for us? We'll just tip our hats to a strategy well played and well hidden, and got people disputing which version of Spidey is superior.

do you always have to insult one particular group when you post? Is it really needed to call people Zombies when discussing Destiny, Choice and Time Travel?

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 10:14 AM

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 10:15 AM

do you always have to insult one particular group when you post? Is it really needed to call people Zombies when discussing Destiny, Choice and Time Travel?Agreed. No need to do more than forward one's own opinion here. That doesn't mean one has to disparage someone else's.

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 10:20 AM

If it was destined for the two characters to be married, then it was in effect in 1962 as well. If, however, destiny is nothing more than an intellectual concept, and time and space are in fact more open to alternate possibilities, then the only real "destiny' is that all possibilities that could happen will be realized.

Ok i think i got what you are going with here.

Putting Destiny aside for a moment. We have 2 outcomes. A) they get married. B) they dont. Within each possibility there are a multiple possible outcomes. 1 of which is the OMD 616 timeline.

Going back to Destiny, the way you use it in that sentence would be the path to a multiverse. Where in all universes created would have answers to each choice.

Do you believe marvel works in that way?

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 10:31 AM

Ok i think i got what you are going with here.

Putting Destiny aside for a moment. We have 2 outcomes. A) they get married. B) they dont. Within each possibility there are a multiple possible outcomes. 1 of which is the OMD 616 timeline.

Going back to Destiny, the way you use it in that sentence would be the path to a multiverse. Where in all universes created would have answers to each choice.

Do you believe marvel works in that way?You've got the crux of it, yeah (though I'd have written, for example, "Within each possibility there are a multiple possible outcomes. one of which is the OMD timeline.").

Either they have a linear concept of time -- in which case in the 616 they have a series of events that alters it's singular timeline and all things were pretty much meant to happen in the way they did, and there isn't anything one can do to change that, or --

-- they have a space/time continuum concept of time, in which all possible decisions lead to their own timelines/realities, so that, while choice is still present, the only destiny is that all possibilities will be realized.

Personally, I don't know if Marvel even gives thought to these sorts of notions -- which is why there really doesn't seem to be any continuity of thought throughout there books in regards to this concept.

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 10:46 AM

You've got the crux of it, yeah (though I'd have written, for example, "Within each possibility there are a multiple possible outcomes. one of which is the OMD timeline.").

Either they have a linear concept of time -- in which case in the 616 they have a series of events that alters it's singular timeline and all things were pretty much meant to happen in the way they did, and there isn't anything one can do to change that, or --

-- they have a space/time continuum concept of time, in which all possible decisions lead to their own timelines/realities, so that, while choice is still present, the only destiny is that all possibilities will be realized.

Personally, I don't know if Marvel even gives thought to these sorts of notions -- which is why there really doesn't seem to be any continuity of thought throughout there books in regards to this concept.

that i can agree with you. It seems they are doing a little of both. Meaning they dont want a huge multiverse but they have a few and a book about keeping them in check.

-edit-
Let me also say, its refreshing to start a week off with a nice civil, well thought out discussion of time and how it is structured. In real world i guess the only way to discover how it works would be time travel. Too which i'll quote Jurassic Park "God creates Dinosaur, God destroys Dinosaur, God creates man, Man destroys god, Man creates Dinosaur.........." "Dinosaur eats man......" Some questions are best left unanswered

Pro

10-27-2008, 11:06 AM

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 11:11 AM

that i can agree with you. It seems they are doing a little of both. Meaning they dont want a huge multiverse but they have a few and a book about keeping them in check.I think you're right here. I'm thinking that they don't want to have anything like a multiverse (a' la DC), but they either don't have the patience or manpower to monitor their stories to a degree to keep the circumstances that would set up a multiverse from happening.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 11:12 AM

That would make God little different from Mephisto. Because the same logic would apply to anyone on earth and if so then God allows everyone to suffer despite already knowing who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. Why put people who go to heaven through the suffering life brings with it if god already knows their choice, if the battle is already won from God's perspective?It's a fine question -- and applies to more than just comics. It's also why I don't like the concept of destiny.

cpahl2000

10-27-2008, 11:14 AM

ah but is the dream world a dream or is it a reality. Unless you wake how do you really know?

Im not saying BND is a pocket world or not real. Im saying it is a new timeline that replaces the original due to the change that is made..... but the question is, with time being a river..... will it correct itself? If so When? And will Marvel ever choose to have that as a part of the story?

You cant change the past.... so shouldnt MJ and Pete end up together eventually?

The issue is marvel has the beginning of the character and we are in the middle.... they will never take it to the end of the character..... so is it at that point that he gets mj back?

I´m not sure if Marvel will use it, I´d use as a big fight against Mephisto to gain peter´s soul and marriage back or at least to redeem him as a person, to erase the deal. Mephisto put spider-man and all Marvel universe inside a glass, anew reality altered by him , which affected the life of those who crossed Spider-man life, for the regular people, it didn´t effected but for the majority of heroes and villains it did.

I didn´t like that way to deal with peter´s problems and I understand what you meant, at some point, maybe in a near future or without Quesada, peter and MJ will get back together but the deal should go, even though marvel says it´s okay, it´isn´t.

cpahl2000

10-27-2008, 11:17 AM

Marvel have also said point blank ASM will have a huge affect on the Marvel Universe in 2009....which ought to be right around "War of Kings", so this "we're not reversing s*it crap" could easily be the same B.S that they allocated to the unmasking in Cival War.

Granted, I'm not expecting that, but it'd be a sure-fire way to make all the pro-BND toffs think "Ha, it was a major marketing stratagem all along and you fell for it, and I probably did too, but I'm a Zombie so I'll pretend I knew all along and support the marraige again, ha ha ha", and for us? We'll just tip our hats to a strategy well played and well hidden, and got people disputing which version of Spidey is superior.

maybe yes, maybe no, Today´s Marvel is very difficult to predict, but, deep inside I´m sure they´ll undo it, which is a mistake. I prefer a marriage Spider-man than a one who made a deal with mephisto. We have to wait but without high hopes.

Alan2099

10-27-2008, 11:34 AM

It's been established in the past that attempts to change the past instead create an alternate reality.

However there ARE certain individuals that have developed ways of directly changing the past without creating a new reality. Doom is one of them as is Kang. It's not a big stretch to think that mephisto would be able to do something like this is he set his mind to it. Even some of the more powerful denziens of the Marvel universe typically describe Mephisto as a being of limitless power.

Another intresting point to bring up is Earth-X. While not canon, the various Earth-X stories established that mephisto was NOT the devil or even a demon for that matter. He just belived he was. Because of this, he went out of his way to create alternate reality to escape into in order to escape what he thought of as God's eventually judgement for him.

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 11:43 AM

Mephisto put spider-man and all Marvel universe inside a glass, anew reality altered by him , which affected the life of those who crossed Spider-man life, for the regular people, it didn´t effected but for the majority of heroes and villains it did.

No different than what Legion did in Age of Apocalypse or for that matter what Bishop did to correct the timeline in Age of Apocalypse. The thing is Mephisto is no different than the average man when it comes to time manipulation. Anyone can make a change that changes multiple things. The fact that hes a cosmic entity that bends reality just makes it easier for him to do so.

Like i said in another thread, Bishop could have done all this with his time travel arm thingy. Though i dont know how he would have stopped the wedding without killing someone.

mikekerr3

10-27-2008, 11:48 AM

Thats another good theory I like reading sometimes, Time and Destiny are separated.

Time is a measurable, if only partial understood part of observable reality.

Destiny and fate are fantasys to make us feel better about the world, "It was destinyu" is much more comfortable than "Sh** happens"

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 11:54 AM

Time is a measurable, if only partial understood part of observable reality.

Destiny and fate are fantasys to make us feel better about the world, "It was destinyu" is much more comfortable than "Sh** happens"

are you certain? or like time is it relative to the one being effected by it?

Likewise explain deja-vu to me, how does that fit in?

what of coincidence, is it really possible to have multiple coincidences explain something, or do you feel that it would be more fated to happen when such events occur to you?

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 11:59 AM

Time is a measurable, if only partial understood part of observable reality.Provided, of course, your observable reality is the same as everyone else's. :biggrin:

Destiny and fate are fantasy's to make us feel better about the world, "It was destiny" is much more comfortable than "Sh** happens"That's one theory.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 12:04 PM

It's been established in the past that attempts to change the past instead create an alternate reality.I'm asking this question out of ignorance -- when did this get established?

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 12:27 PM

I'm asking this question out of ignorance -- when did this get established?

I too would like to know. Most recently was AOA with time travel causing changes, least that i recall, I was certain that marvel broke there old rules on that one.

Did AOA continue on after Bishop stopped Legion? I thought it ended and certain characters were pulled across.... nate grey, dark beast, that glowing no body guy and blink landed in exiles.

mikekerr3

10-27-2008, 12:29 PM

are you certain? or like time is it relative to the one being effected by it?

Pretty certainm never have I sean ant evidece that the future is pre-determined, Choices and chance make the future from what I have seen and can logically deduce. Destiny and the River theoury would require the universe having a reference in how lives work out and I finf that a huge streach

Likewise explain deja-vu to me, how does that fit in?

a trick of the mind, sensory cues give the impresion of familiarity

what of coincidence, is it really possible to have multiple coincidences explain something, or do you feel that it would be more fated to happen when such events occur to you?

Inside a infinite universe anything can happen. we are all alive and our planet exist due to multiple coincidences. we llive i a chaotic universe where we don't even begin to really understand the rules

. I never use fate as a excuse and can live with a certain randomness to reality and the fact that "Sh** happens" for reasons I don't know.

Fate take away the responsibility for you action It was fate so you are not responsible, a comfortable cop out but I see it as nothing more

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 12:47 PM

Pretty certainm never have I sean ant evidece that the future is pre-determined, Choices and chance make the future from what I have seen and can logically deduce. Destiny and the River theoury would require the universe having a reference in how lives work out and I finf that a huge streach

The river theory would not. As i explained to jim the river only works when looking at past events in history. They are already done. They are facts. They arent predestined to happen in the way of what Destiny is commonly conceived as.... Lincoln wasnt pre-destined to be shot by booth in the theater. But if i were to travel back and watch that day it is written in history to happen.... thus it will. Its not destiny its just knowledge from the future. The river states that after an event happens that it cant be changed. Lincolns death will always happen because it has to due to it already having happened. The river doesnt apply to future events only to past ones. Man can not formulate a finite theory based on the infinite possibilities of the future. (well one can try)

a trick of the mind, sensory cues give the impresion of familiarity

are you certain. Is it not equally as possible that it really is that you have done it before? Is it not remotely possible that one experiences deja-vu when they are doing something they were meant to be doing?

How can you be so sure that your grasp of time and destiny are the correct ones?

Inside a infinite universe anything can happen. we are all alive and our planet exist due to multiple coincidences. we llive i a chaotic universe where we don't even begin to really understand the rules

Perhaps, but is it not also equally possible that a random string of coincidences is not entirely random at all. How big must the odds be for something to happen before you question how it is that it happened?

. I never use fate as a excuse and can live with a certain randomness to reality and the fact that "Sh** happens" for reasons I don't know.

Fate take away the responsibility for you action It was fate so you are not responsible, a comfortable cop out but I see it as nothing more

I'll have some fun with this one.

responsibility and fate are two different things mike, if you are destined to kill a man it doesnt mean your actions are not yours. you still hold responsibility for doing what you did. Unless you feel choice is not part of the equation. Then you are also destined to be held accountable by society for your actions

Do you believe that one knows what there fate would be? Is it possible for the human mind to understand the universe in its infinite scope? To be a dork and quote harry potter for a second "He did great things, horrible things, but great none the less." If he was destined for greatness he still had the choice of what kind of greatness.

Goes back to that whole competing destinies theory i was discussing with jim earlier.

cpahl2000

10-27-2008, 12:50 PM

No different than what Legion did in Age of Apocalypse or for that matter what Bishop did to correct the timeline in Age of Apocalypse. The thing is Mephisto is no different than the average man when it comes to time manipulation. Anyone can make a change that changes multiple things. The fact that hes a cosmic entity that bends reality just makes it easier for him to do so.

Like i said in another thread, Bishop could have done all this with his time travel arm thingy. Though i dont know how he would have stopped the wedding without killing someone.

I agree bit what I tried to say that this whole time change-erase didn´t effect the regular inhabitants of marvel universe, like the everyday men, women, childrens, teens, and those heroes and villains that never crossed Spider-man astray. for those , the deal and the erasing of events didn't t effected, but For Peter, his friends, foes, avengers team mates and lots of it effected, the deal erased their minds, erased and changes events. I totally agree about Bishop, AoA but this particular event, the deal didn´t erased the whole continuity, only for those that Spider-man has any connection.

James Conniff

10-27-2008, 12:53 PM

Since it seems to be a topic of some discussion, I decided to start a thread asking folks if they think the deal with Mephisto has created a new reality in the MU.

Personally, I think it must have. Once a decision point was changed in the past, a new timeline (and thus new reality) was established. But I'm curious what others think about this, and why.

Have at thee! :biggrin:

Following that logic EVERY single time travel story (where the characters go into the past) has created a new marvel universe. Every action taken in the past would have created massive changes, just by stepping on the right (or wrong) bug or killing the wrong Dinosaur in some past romp.

But does the main Marvel Universe get screwed up(beyond a little fluke here or there) beyond recognition when returning to the present? No(unless that is the point of the story). Things may have changed a little but it is still the same place.

No the OMD deal didn't create a new universe. We are seeing the events of the 616 universe affecting the book This is not in it's own time line or every book being published would still be in the "new" time line, making it the REAL time line.
I can't remember where I read it (maybe Ellis' "New Universal"), but it has been put out there that reality is self repairing. It has to be in order for any time travel to be allowed, or else each time a person travels through time it would destroy reality due to the changes taking place(be careful not to create any paradoxes!).

The Universe has changed before, and in much larger ways than a marriage turning into a long term relationship where all of the events happened just the way they did before(except without a marriage certificate). It's a lot easier a leap to make than Heroes Reborn.

A few things may have changed. But I have yet to see a quote from an editor or writer on the book saying that anything has changed besides the marriage. Are there changes beyond that? Maybe, but we wont know about them unless they are revealed in the book. And until then: Everything happened*.

*except the marriage.

stillanerd

10-27-2008, 01:00 PM

The short answer to this topic question is yes. You need to look no further than One More Day itself, in which, in part 3, Mephisto, in the guise of the Woman in Red, explains how the slightest of changes can have the largest of ramifications, which is popularly known as the Butterfly Effect. This is important since the story involves Peter and MJ having to save Aunt May by making a deal for Mephisto to make it so their marriage never happened.

Now, there is a theory in quantum mechanics known as the "Many World Interpretation." While the wikipedia article for this gets pretty complex using all sorts of complicated mathematical equations, it can basically be summed up as this:

Many-worlds claims to resolve all the "paradoxes" of quantum theory since every possible outcome to every event defines or exists in its own "history" or "world." In layman's terms, this means that there is a very large, perhaps infinite, number of universes and that everything that could possibly happen in our universe (but doesn't) does happen in some other universe(s).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

In other words, for every possibility, there's another universe. This would also mean that even the slightest change to any variable to an existing universe will, theoretically, change the nature of that universe. So, even if everything else happened exactly as before--including Peter and MJ being together this whole time--the very fact they weren't married is in itself an alteration, and therefore, by definition, a new reality has been created.

Likewise, we have, in interviews, Tom Breevort stating that the Mephisto's deal did not restore Peter's secret identity, despite the fact One More Day makes it abundantly clear that he did. However, the way he explained this was that since Peter and MJ were never married, then they had nothing to bargain Mephisto with, which means that the deal never happened. That can only be the case if, in another reality, Peter and MJ were never married and that Aunt May was saved via some other means, Peter's secret identity was restored through some other means, etc. As fellow poster Shaggy B showed via a graph he made, what we have is two Earths, each with similar timelines but with slightly different events. In this case, many of the same events that transpired in the larger Marvel Universe still happened but, with regards to Spider-Man, certain things have been altered.

So, the conclusion is that, Marvel first retconned Spider-Man, then retconned the retcon so that now, since ASM #546 at the very least, we've been reading about a Spider-Man in a new reality, with Marvel now claiming that this is the "true" reality and that the past 20 years was an "aberration."

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 01:06 PM

I agree bit what I tried to say that this whole time change-erase didn´t effect the regular inhabitants of marvel universe, like the everyday men, women, childrens, teens, and those heroes and villains that never crossed Spider-man astray. for those , the deal and the erasing of events didn't t effected, but For Peter, his friends, foes, avengers team mates and lots of it effected, the deal erased their minds, erased and changes events. I totally agree about Bishop, AoA but this particular event, the deal didn´t erased the whole continuity, only for those that Spider-man has any connection.

i disagree, It would have changed all those peoples memories. Its just there memories dont contain info about spidey and his marriage. So to them it would seem that no change occurred.

Example: Emperor Vulcan would still be unchanged by the events of OMD, except that since time has changed and the timeline we were on is no more he is changed by the events of OMD. Its just the changes dont effect him as he was not aware of them to begin with.

The deal erased the timeline as it was. To those who werent in the know about that aspect of the old timeline.... it would appear unchanged to them. That doesnt negate the fact that the original timeline is no longer in existence. The change is so small that its not reality warping like say Xavier's death. Back to Dock Worker #12, had legion stabbed him and then been subdued..... reality would have still changed to reflect DW#12's death but.... it wouldnt not have changed as drastically.

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 01:11 PM

The short answer to this topic question is yes. You need to look no further than One More Day itself, in which, in part 3, Mephisto, in the guise of the Woman in Red, explains how the slightest of changes can have the largest of ramifications, which is popularly known as the Butterfly Effect. This is important since the story involves Peter and MJ having to save Aunt May by making a deal for Mephisto to make it so their marriage never happened.

Now, there is a theory in quantum mechanics known as the "Many World Interpretation." While the wikipedia article for this gets pretty complex using all sorts of complicated mathematical equations, it can basically be summed up as this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

Basically, this means that even the slightest change to any variable will, theatrically, change the nature of the universe. So, even if everything else happened exactly as before--including Peter and MJ being together this whole time--the very fact they weren't married is in itself an alteration, and therefore, by definition, a new reality has been created.

Likewise, we have, in interviews, Tom Breevort stating that the Mephisto's deal did not restore Peter's secret identity, despite the fact One More Day makes it abundantly clear that he did. However, the way he explained this was that since Peter and MJ were never married, then they had nothing to bargain Mephisto with, which means that the deal never happened. That can only be the case if, in another reality, Peter and MJ were never married and that Aunt May was saved via some other means, Peter's secret identity was restored through some other means, etc. As fellow poster Shaggy B showed via a graph he made, what we have is two Earths, each with similar timelines but with slightly different events. In this case, many of the same events that transpired in the larger Marvel Universe still happened but, with regards to Spider-Man, certain things have been altered.

So, the conclusion is that, Marvel first retconned Spider-Man, then retconned the retcon so that now, since ASM #546 at the very least, we've been reading about a Spider-Man in a new reality, with Marvel now claiming that this is the "true" reality and that the past 20 years was an "aberration."

basically to sum that all up in Marvel terms..... Welcome to the "What If" book. Marvels version of slight tweaks and the effects they cause.

So while the theory of infinite universes exists Marvel does not seem to acknowledge it in the same way as say DC did with Pre-CIOE.

mikekerr3

10-27-2008, 01:26 PM

The river theory would not. As i explained to jim the river only works when looking at past events in history. They are already done. They are facts. They arent predestined to happen in the way of what Destiny is commonly conceived as.... Lincoln wasnt pre-destined to be shot by booth in the theater. But if i were to travel back and watch that day it is written in history to happen.... thus it will. Its not destiny its just knowledge from the future. The river states that after an event happens that it cant be changed. Lincolns death will always happen because it has to due to it already having happened. The river doesnt apply to future events only to past ones. Man can not formulate a finite theory based on the infinite possibilities of the future. (well one can try)

The river theory presupposes that the universe has a preferred result. I don't see any evidence of that in reality. I think the instant you travel back in time you cause a new universe to be created and every thing you do thereafter make a new one, that preserves causality and the idea of free will, without both of thiose reality is a "why bother"

are you certain. Is it not equally as possible that it really is that you have done it before? Is it not remotely possible that one experiences deja-vu when they are doing something they were meant to be doing?

How can you be so sure that your grasp of time and destiny are the correct ones?

Who means for me to be doing it? My grasp on time is as weak ans any other finite mind is, and I put the concept of destiny in the same leguage as the Easter bunny, a fun concept with not connection to reality.

Perhaps, but is it not also equally possible that a random string of coincidences is not entirely random at all. How big must the odds be for something to happen before you question how it is that it happened?

If a string of coincidences seem unlikely you check for a reason inside causality, apparent coincidences do often have physical explanation. For me or you to exist as we are require a nearly infinite set of event to happen just a certain way so accepting large scale improbabilities is just a part of rational thought.

I'll have some fun with this one.

responsibility and fate are two different things mike, if you are destined to kill a man it doesnt mean your actions are not yours. you still hold responsibility for doing what you did. Unless you feel choice is not part of the equation. Then you are also destined to be held accountable by society for your actions

Do you believe that one knows what there fate would be? Is it possible for the human mind to understand the universe in its infinite scope? To be a dork and quote harry potter for a second "He did great things, horrible things, but great none the less." If he was destined for greatness he still had the choice of what kind of greatness.

Goes back to that whole competing destinies theory i was discussing with jim earlier.

To all a line to Harry potter you could ad that he could have decide to paint pictures of puppies with big eyes and ignore the greatness entirely. If you can choose not to and you do something, fate is not involved just the results of you choices. If you will do something regardless of your choices then you never really had a choice.

The concept of destiny requires that the universe care how things work out and have an end result in mind in extremely fine detail. That is a matter of faith not logic.

stillanerd

10-27-2008, 01:40 PM

basically to sum that all up in Marvel terms..... Welcome to the "What If" book. Marvels version of slight tweaks and the effects they cause.

So while the theory of infinite universes exists Marvel does not seem to acknowledge it in the same way as say DC did with Pre-CIOE.

Right. DC's concept of the multiverse is basically 52 radically different alternate dimensions that various characters are able to transverse to and from.

Marvel apparently has an infinite number of parallel universes in which very few people know even exist. Spider-Girl/MC2 is a parallel universe. Ultimate Marvel is a parallel universe. Marvel Zombies is a parallel universe. Every single issue of "What If?" takes place in a separate parallel universe.

Furthermore, any time a character goes back in time and changes events, not only is the past changed but a completely separate and distinct reality is created, such as Age of Apocalypse. Also, any universe artificially created can also splinter off and create a new reality independent from the one that had been changed. Such is the case for "Heroes Reborn" and "House of M" both of which "ended" in the original universe and yet still exist. This could also mean that, somewhere in Marvel's comic book landscape, there is a universe in which Peter and MJ are still married, Aunt May is dead, and his secret identity is known by the whole world.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 01:41 PM

Following that logic EVERY single time travel story (where the characters go into the past) has created a new marvel universe. Every action taken in the past would have created massive changes, just by stepping on the right (or wrong) bug or killing the wrong Dinosaur in some past romp.That's the basic hypothesis, yes, that every time a decision point is reached, realities branch off from that point. The changes don't have to be massive, however. In most cases, they'd be barely noticeable (which would fit well into the OMD/BND framework, actually).

But does the main Marvel Universe get screwed up(beyond a little fluke here or there) beyond recognition when returning to the present? No(unless that is the point of the story). Things may have changed a little but it is still the same place. Again, the new reality would be very similar to the what readers were used to, but not identical.

No the OMD deal didn't create a new universe. We are seeing the events of the 616 universe affecting the book This is not in it's own time line or every book being published would still be in the "new" time line, making it the REAL time line.
I can't remember where I read it (maybe Ellis' "New Universal"), but it has been put out there that reality is self repairing. It has to be in order for any time travel to be allowed, or else each time a person travels through time it would destroy reality due to the changes taking place(be careful not to create any paradoxes!).Yeah, I can see that, particularly if one believes in the linear concept of time.

The Universe has changed before, and in much larger ways than a marriage turning into a long term relationship where all of the events happened just the way they did before(except without a marriage certificate). It's a lot easier a leap to make than Heroes Reborn.I noted this earlier, but yes, the MU has been through many significant changes. This would just be the latest. Personally, I think each change has resulted in a new reality, which coexist alongside each other.

A few things may have changed. But I have yet to see a quote from an editor or writer on the book saying that anything has changed besides the marriage. Are there changes beyond that? Maybe, but we wont know about them unless they are revealed in the book. And until then: Everything happened*.Admittedly, I haven't been keeping a close eye on what the Marvel execs have been saying about this lately, but they have undone a pregnancy (seemingly) and Peter's secret ID has been re-established -- so things have changed, beyond the marriage.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 01:42 PM

Marvel apparently has an infinite number of parallel universes in which very few people know even exist. Spider-Girl/MC2 is a parallel universe. Ultimate Marvel is a parallel universe. Marvel Zombies is a parallel universe. Every single issue of "What If?" takes place in a separate parallel universe.

Furthermore, any time a character goes back in time and changes events, not only is the past changed but a completely separate and distinct reality is created, such as Age of Apocalypse. Also, any universe artificially created can also splinter off and create a new reality independent from the one that had been changed. Such is the case for "Heroes Reborn" and "House of M" both of which "ended" in the original universe and yet still exist. This could also mean that, somewhere in Marvel's comic book landscape, there is a universe in which Peter and MJ are still married, Aunt May is dead, and his secret identity is known by the whole world.Quite possible, although it doesn't seem Marvel either is prepared or wants to explore this possibility at the moment.

Shade 20x6

10-27-2008, 01:53 PM

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 01:54 PM

And to suggest that the last 20 years of Spider-Man continuity has all been one big "What If?" is just insulting on an unfathomable scale. So now do you see why I'm so pissed off about this whole thing?What's insulting about it?

stillanerd

10-27-2008, 01:58 PM

Quite possible, although it doesn't seem Marvel either is prepared or wants to explore this possibility at the moment.

Well they have to some extent. The Exiles series pretty much is Sliders only with Marvel characters, and they've gone through various "What If?" universes, and even had Spider-Man 2099 as part of the roster at one point. Also, the Ultimate line has had two instances in which they've interacted with parallel dimensions; one was the Marvel Zombies and the other was Supreme Power.

However, 616 has been relatively free of characters crossing over into another one of Marvel's comic book lines, with the exception of a few characters from Age of Apocalypse. It's possible that they don't want to go full bore with this because they don't want to be accused of ripping off DC (too late!) Even Quesada joked that if they have a Marvel 616/Ultimate universe crossover, that would be a clear sign they have run out of ideas.

With regards to a BND's Spider-Man meeting a Pre-OMD/Post OMD Spider-Man where he's still married to MJ, probably not.

Shade 20x6

10-27-2008, 01:59 PM

What's insulting about it?

http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/mario-princess.jpg

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 02:04 PM

Well they have to some extent. The Exiles series pretty much is Sliders only with Marvel characters, and they've gone through various "What If?" universes, and even had Spider-Man 2099 as part of the roster at one point. Also, the Ultimate line has had two instances in which they've interacted with parallel dimensions; one was the Marvel Zombies and the other was Supreme Power.

However, 616 has been relatively free of characters crossing over into another one of Marvel's comic book lines, with the exception of a few characters from Age of Apocalypse. It's possible that they don't want to go full bore with this because they don't want to be accused of ripping off DC (too late!) Even Quesada joked that if they have a Marvel 616/Ultimate universe crossover, that would be a clear sign they have run out of ideas.The Heroes Reborn Universe also interacted briefly with the Wildstorm/Image Universes, which was sort of neat, and of course the MU and DCU have interacted on several occasions (one of which was even mentioned in What If? #1! :biggrin:).

In other words, all the pieces are there for an exploration of a true Marvel multiverse -- but of course they think that'll too closely associate them with the DCU, an argument I think is somewhat flawed at its' core. After all, the MU itself is basically a variation of the DCU to begin with.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 02:04 PM

http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/mario-princess.jpgClearly I'm not clever enough to understand your meaning here. Help? :confused:

Shade 20x6

10-27-2008, 02:06 PM

I had posted a picture, but it disappeared.

Trying again:

http://www.grindthatauthority.de/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/ThePrincessIsInAnotherCastle.gif

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 02:08 PM

I had posted a picture, but it disappeared.

Trying again:

http://www.grindthatauthority.de/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/ThePrincessIsInAnotherCastle.gifLOL! Keep playing that game! :biggrin:

Hertz

10-27-2008, 02:12 PM

Provided, of course, your observable reality is the same as everyone else's. :biggrin:

If I remember correctly, that notion is impossible.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 02:13 PM

If I remember correctly, that notion is impossible.Statistically improbable, at any rate.

Hertz

10-27-2008, 02:23 PM

Statistically improbable, at any rate.

I'm thinking more along the lines of quantum mechanics rather than statistics.

Hertz

10-27-2008, 02:28 PM

At any rate, I think that the current version of Spider-Man exists in universe 616 v 1.x and that Pre-OMD is 616 v 1.(x-1) with OMD acting as the patch that shunts our perception over the current version.

Jim Thompson

10-27-2008, 02:28 PM

I'm thinking more along the lines of quantum mechanics rather than statistics.I can't swear to this, but I'm pretty sure statistics are used in quantum mechanics. Regardless, I think your original point is valid.

cpahl2000

10-27-2008, 02:31 PM

i disagree, It would have changed all those peoples memories. Its just there memories dont contain info about spidey and his marriage. So to them it would seem that no change occurred.

Example: Emperor Vulcan would still be unchanged by the events of OMD, except that since time has changed and the timeline we were on is no more he is changed by the events of OMD. Its just the changes dont effect him as he was not aware of them to begin with.

The deal erased the timeline as it was. To those who werent in the know about that aspect of the old timeline.... it would appear unchanged to them. That doesnt negate the fact that the original timeline is no longer in existence. The change is so small that its not reality warping like say Xavier's death. Back to Dock Worker #12, had legion stabbed him and then been subdued..... reality would have still changed to reflect DW#12's death but.... it wouldnt not have changed as drastically.

The continuity is still out there, like the Emperor Vulcan example you gave. Mephisto messed with Spider-man and all person that had any contact( and only personal) with him. For those that didn´t know spider-man or a thing about him it´s still the same. The whole OMD was badly orchestrated, any marvel´s effort to make it clear doesn´t help either. I´m still with that the deal should undo, no matter if marvel wants a married Spider-man or not, only that will make Spider-man what he really is, a hero.

mikekerr3

10-27-2008, 06:04 PM

I'm thinking more along the lines of quantum mechanics rather than statistics.

Quantum Mechanics is pretty much all statiscs, on the math level:smile:

Mister Mets

10-27-2008, 06:43 PM

I agree with the camp that says that the deal altered an existing reality.

And to suggest that the last 20 years of Spider-Man continuity has all been one big "What If?" is just insulting on an unfathomable scale. So now do you see why I'm so pissed off about this whole thing?

"We have years worth of stories with an unmasked Spider-Man."

"The marriage will not be magicked away."

"Everything still happened but the marriage."

"And the pregnancy."

"And OMD."

At what point does one say "enough is enough?"Depends on the reader. You probably reached that point a long time ago

ZT4

10-27-2008, 06:54 PM

That is true for many of us. However, it doesnt stop us from trying to convey that if new readers are lured into this, they are being fed B.S as much as we are because they WILL look up on back-issues and find a very complete story prior to all the continuity mangling as long ago as 1999, and will therefore see no incenstive in buying an infinite loop for the central character in a faux reality

It makes Marvel look as if it's long-term goal presently is to gain new readers with the full intent of deciet, thinking they are that stupid not to check up on back-issues, and not care if they lose them because they aqquired their breif attention where it counted. It will come across as trecherous, disgusting marketing and paints them as rip-off artists.

It's less to do with "My personal evaluation of Spider-Man isnt being represented", and more to do with "This is not how you market something to new readers by treating them like dummies".

James Conniff

10-27-2008, 06:59 PM

That's the basic hypothesis, yes, that every time a decision point is reached, realities branch off from that point. The changes don't have to be massive, however. In most cases, they'd be barely noticeable (which would fit well into the OMD/BND framework, actually).

Again, the new reality would be very similar to the what readers were used to, but not identical. Agreed. Very much like BND Spidey. Things are a little different, but there aren't any massive changes to continuity that we have seen so far.

Yeah, I can see that, particularly if one believes in the linear concept of time.
I think the events in a work of fiction need to be shown as a linear time. As much as I love other theories of time (I'm a big fan of Vonnegut's use of time in Slaughterhouse five), but they don't really work in a shared universe.

I noted this earlier, but yes, the MU has been through many significant changes. This would just be the latest. Personally, I think each change has resulted in a new reality, which coexist alongside each other.
And that's cool for the sake of a multiverse, and the Exiles. But I think it is fair to say that all of Marvels books that are set in the marvel universe are in the same shared 616.

Admittedly, I haven't been keeping a close eye on what the Marvel execs have been saying about this lately, but they have undone a pregnancy (seemingly) and Peter's secret ID has been re-established -- so things have changed, beyond the marriage. [/QUOTE] The Pregnancy hasn't been touched on in years. I doubt very much we will see either Peter or MJ make reference to this in the future. I have yet to see a quote where an editor or writer has said that the pregnancy never occurred. there's the famous Quesada line where he says he would like for the pregnancy to never have happened because he thinks that Peter and MJ would have been careful about not getting pregnant, that may be something he would like to see removed but he didn't say it was.

The secret Id being secret again is going to be dealt with at some point this year. Slott has already hinted that something else besides the mephisto deal is at work here, and that Peter had an active hand in getting his Id secret again(as seen in NWtD part 2).

ShaggyB

10-27-2008, 07:25 PM

The continuity is still out there, like the Emperor Vulcan example you gave. Mephisto messed with Spider-man and all person that had any contact( and only personal) with him. For those that didn´t know spider-man or a thing about him it´s still the same.

yes but that doesnt mean they werent effected by the timeline change... its just such a minor change that it does nothing to them.

jackolover

10-27-2008, 08:06 PM

I just have one thing to say: FF Death in the Family.

If Mephisto made a new reality, he has to get in line.

Hertz

10-27-2008, 10:10 PM

Slott has already hinted that something else besides the mephisto deal is at work here, and that Peter had an active hand in getting his Id secret again(as seen in NWtD part 2).

I think that this is part of the reason that people are thinking that this is a different reality. That along with what Tom B. has said recently about the deal not happening now since there was nothing to give up or some such thing. Admittedly it isn't a statement of fact and for all we know it could just be Tom dicking around (the jerk). (this question is for Jim) Weren't Pete and MJ trying to get her pregnant at the beginning of the clone saga?

Hertz

10-28-2008, 12:21 AM

Just thought of something fun. The BND Spider-Man is supposed to be younger than the Pre-OMD Spider-Man, right? If that's the case, then doesn't BND have to exist in a different reality?

BlackToe

10-28-2008, 12:53 AM

Just thought of something fun. The BND Spider-Man is supposed to be younger than the Pre-OMD Spider-Man, right? If that's the case, then doesn't BND have to exist in a different reality?

I think you're being too literal in this case. Marvel hasnt really ever specified Peter's age other than somewhere in his mid-twenties. It depends on which writer and which direction Marvel allows him to go in.

(I have to read this thread, it got alot of pages since last night.)

mikekerr3

10-28-2008, 01:00 AM

ZT4

10-28-2008, 02:53 AM

Just thought of something fun. The BND Spider-Man is supposed to be younger than the Pre-OMD Spider-Man, right? If that's the case, then doesn't BND have to exist in a different reality?

They've been trying to de-age Peter and MJ for years, but yeah, Peter's allocated in his mid-twenties in BND, when he was almost in his thirties in the regular timeline

The Shadow

10-28-2008, 05:47 AM

he was almost in his thirties in the regular timeline
Says who? :confused:

Mister Mets

10-28-2008, 06:20 AM

Says who? :confused:While Marvel was vague about his age, he was either in his late twenties or early to mid thirties.

Marvel established in Alias that it had been fifteen years since Amazing Fantasy #15.

They backtracked a little bit by suggesting that it had been ten years since Peter graduated high school in Marvel Knights Spider-Man #7.

Time in the Marvel Universe is pretty damn inconsistent (check out how Jessica Jones's pregnancy corresponds to a one year jump in Bendis's Daredevil and the nine month gap between Avengers #503 and New Avengers #1), and these may just be strings we're not supposed to pull.

oldschool

10-28-2008, 06:28 AM

While Marvel was vague about his age, he was either in his late twenties or early to mid thirties.

Marvel established in Alias that it had been fifteen years since Amazing Fantasy #15.

They backtracked a little bit by suggesting that it had been ten years since Peter graduated high school in Marvel Knights Spider-Man #7.

Time in the Marvel Universe is pretty damn inconsistent (check out how Jessica Jones's pregnancy corresponds to a one year jump in Bendis's Daredevil and the nine month gap between Avengers #503 and New Avengers #1), and these may just be strings we're not supposed to pull.

Exactly. Which is why they would be wise to avoid any kind of references as much as possible. I have even noticed that they do not even reference seasons or holidays as much as they once did. In ASM in the 70's and 80's they showed Christmas or New Year's parties occassionally; they would even reference the passage of time in regards to when another story took place ("I put Doc Ock away 6 months ago!! ---followed by a footnote with appropriate issue #).

It is wise that they have stopped doing these things as it only helps link the issues to a timeline.

ShaggyB

10-28-2008, 06:48 AM

They were trying to have a child out of wedlock apparently:biggrin: .

Bingo, and ive seen that happen in the real world......

ShaggyB

10-28-2008, 06:56 AM

While Marvel was vague about his age, he was either in his late twenties or early to mid thirties.

Marvel established in Alias that it had been fifteen years since Amazing Fantasy #15.

They backtracked a little bit by suggesting that it had been ten years since Peter graduated high school in Marvel Knights Spider-Man #7.

Time in the Marvel Universe is pretty damn inconsistent (check out how Jessica Jones's pregnancy corresponds to a one year jump in Bendis's Daredevil and the nine month gap between Avengers #503 and New Avengers #1), and these may just be strings we're not supposed to pull.

truthfully they didnt say for sure it was a 10 year reunion or not. My high school did a 5 and a 10... We honestly dont know which it was.....

We can assume that he graduated at age 17-19 (id go 18 just to split the difference) We know in that story he tells the high school bullies, that they are in there 20s and should act there age. And he refers to Norman as being a 55 year old man. (done in part 2 of this arc... may's kid napping conclusion)

We have alot of the puzzle but not enough pieces to do more than ballpark it.

The Confessor

10-28-2008, 07:10 AM

The BND Spider-Man is supposed to be younger than the Pre-OMD Spider-Man, right?

They've been trying to de-age Peter and MJ for years, but yeah, Peter's allocated in his mid-twenties in BND, when he was almost in his thirties in the regular timeline

I don't believe it's ever been stated that post-OMD Peter is younger than pre-OMD Peter. Sure, the so-called "Brain Trust" might be writing him as more carefree and young at heart these days but as far as I'm aware, there's never been any solid evidence to suggest that he actually is younger.

Mister Mets

10-28-2008, 07:22 AM

truthfully they didnt say for sure it was a 10 year reunion or not. My high school did a 5 and a 10... We honestly dont know which it was.....

We can assume that he graduated at age 17-19 (id go 18 just to split the difference) We know in that story he tells the high school bullies, that they are in there 20s and should act there age. And he refers to Norman as being a 55 year old man. (done in part 2 of this arc... may's kid napping conclusion)

We have alot of the puzzle but not enough pieces to do more than ballpark it.

Considering Peter had been a college graduate for an year when he quit grad school in Stern's Amazing Spider-Man run, it's safe to assume he wasn't attending his five year reunion during Millar's run.

Incidentally, assuming Peter didn't get left back in any grade (fairly safe assumption IMO), he was 17 or 18 when he graduated high school, depending on when his birthday is (off-topic I know, but has Marvel established that?)

The Shadow

10-28-2008, 08:16 AM

Considering Peter had been a college graduate for an year when he quit grad school in Stern's Amazing Spider-Man run, it's safe to assume he wasn't attending his five year reunion during Millar's run.

Not necessarily.

I was 17 in my first year of college and graduated at 20. So my five year reunion (even with a year after college graduation) made me only 23.

So a year or two of grad school would have made me just 24 or 25.

Jim Thompson

10-28-2008, 08:34 AM

Not necessarily.

I was 17 in my first year of college and graduated at 20. So my five year reunion (even with a year after college graduation) made me only 23.

So a year or two of grad school would have made me just 24 or 25.Canadian reunions must work differently than the one's I've been to. Those were measured from the year of graduation (e.g. if a student graduated in 1985, her five year reunion would happen in 1990).

Jim Thompson

10-28-2008, 08:37 AM

I don't believe it's ever been stated that post-OMD Peter is younger than pre-OMD Peter. Sure, the so-called "Brain Trust" might be writing him as more carefree and young at heart these days but as far as I'm aware, there's never been any solid evidence to suggest that he actually is younger.Yet another one of the benefits to what's happened resulting in an alternate reality as opposed to an altered timeline; Peter can in fact be several years younger in an alternate reality (which seems to be something they are striving for these days).

Jim Thompson

10-28-2008, 08:50 AM

I think that this is part of the reason that people are thinking that this is a different reality. That along with what Tom B. has said recently about the deal not happening now since there was nothing to give up or some such thing. Admittedly it isn't a statement of fact and for all we know it could just be Tom dicking around (the jerk). (this question is for Jim) Weren't Pete and MJ trying to get her pregnant at the beginning of the clone saga?I'll have to go back and look to be sure, but yes, I believe they were trying to do just that. And that, in and of itself, wouldn't present much of a problem, except that the internal reasoning of the characters would probably get called into question by some: Why would a committed couple decide not to get married, but be okay with bringing a child into the world? Regardless of the answer to that question, things couldn't possibly have unfolded as they did when the characters were married -- yet another indicator that people might be reading about an alternate reality as opposed to an altered timeline.

Those decision points are what really messes up the altered timeline hypothesis for me.

The Shadow

10-28-2008, 09:05 AM

Canadian reunions must work differently than the one's I've been to. Those were measured from the year of graduation (e.g. if a student graduated in 1985, her five year reunion would happen in 1990).

How so?

If I was 17 when I graduated high school, my 5 year reunion would be when I was 22 (though I was 23 as it happened after my birthday).

ShaggyB

10-28-2008, 09:13 AM

How so?

If I was 17 when I graduated high school, my 5 year reunion would be when I was 22 (though I was 23 as it happened after my birthday).

that and 4 years of college plus 1 puts pete in the right time frame for that.... though i took it as his 10 year reunion myself when i first read it.... due to sliding time it seems more likely it was his 7 year reunion which technically isnt celebrated.

Jim Thompson

10-28-2008, 09:37 AM

How so?

If I was 17 when I graduated high school, my 5 year reunion would be when I was 22 (though I was 23 as it happened after my birthday).Ah. You didn't specify you were talking about your high-school reunion. Since all that was in your post referred to college, I thought you were talking about your college reunion.

The Shadow

10-28-2008, 10:35 AM

Ah. You didn't specify you were talking about your high-school reunion. Since all that was in your post referred to college, I thought you were talking about your college reunion.
Sorry.

I thought it would be more obvious as we were talking about Peter's high school reunion... but you're right, by only mentioning college I gave the wrong impression.

Jim Thompson

10-28-2008, 10:39 AM

Sorry.

I thought it would be more obvious as we were talking about Peter's high school reunion... but you're right, by only mentioning college I gave the wrong impression.Ah, no worries. I'm a bear of little brain, after all. :redface:

Jim Thompson

10-28-2008, 10:48 AM

This poll has stayed pretty tight in it's responses, and it got me to wondering this as well: How much is one's enjoyment of the new direction tied into the notion what's happened before has happened? In other words, are there folks out there who would not enjoy the new direction if it were revealed everything is happening in an alternate reality as opposed to an altered timeline (or vise versa)? If so, why?

Expletive Deleted

10-28-2008, 10:59 AM

The way I understand it, the comic line that's being published is the main timeline, regardless of retcon. So the most the deal could've done is caused an alternate timeline to branch off where the deal wasn't made.

Look at the Kulan Gath storyline in UNCANNY X-MEN by way of example. Kulan Gath altered reality to reflect the Hyborian Age. The X-Men couldn't stop him, so they mucked with time to prevent him from coming to power. They effectively created a new reality where the previous storyline hadn't happened. And yet, the "new" reality they created continued on as the "main" timeline. The official position is that the Kulan Gath timeline is the alternate one, in spite of the retcon shenanigans.

For whatever it's worth, McDuffie added a twist to the Thomas/Gruenwald/et al. branching time structure in his final FF storyline with Pelletier, the notion that the timestream can absorb relatively minor changes. If you go back in time and save Lincoln or kill Hitler, that's probably going to cause a separate timeline to branch off from the main MU trunk. If you do something minor that wouldn't really change anything (ie. you don't step on any butterflies), there's no branching at all.

Anyway, I realize that was incredibly wonky and not particularly relevant to the topic at hand (especially as it's progressed in the last four or five pages), but I did want to explain my vote.

Jim Thompson

10-28-2008, 11:02 AM

For whatever it's worth, McDuffie added a twist to the Thomas/Gruenwald/et al. branching time structure in his final FF storyline with Pelletier, the notion that the timestream can absorb relatively minor changes. If you go back in time and save Lincoln or kill Hitler, that's probably going to cause a separate timeline to branch off from the main MU trunk. If you do something minor that wouldn't really change anything (ie. you don't step on any butterflies), there's no branching at all. It's certainly an interesting notion that, if applied, begs the question did Peter and MJ's marriage rise to the level of being more than a minor event in the MU? Mephisto seemed to think it was, at any rate.

Expletive Deleted

10-28-2008, 11:09 AM

It's certainly an interesting notion that, if applied, begs the question did Peter and MJ's marriage rise to the level of being more than a minor event in the MU? Mephisto seemed to think it was, at any rate.Oh, it's entirely subjective. I hesitated to mention it on that basis, but I wanted to be thorough. If the argument from Brevoort and company is that very little changed as a result of the retcon, it's a technicality worth noting.

That said, addressing your point about Mephisto, I don't know that cosmic significance in terms of the effect on reality and mystic significance in terms of Mephisto's bailiwick would necessarily be in sync.

Jim Thompson

10-28-2008, 11:13 AM

Oh, it's entirely subjective. I hesitated to mention it on that basis, but I wanted to be thorough. If the argument from Brevoort and company is that very little changed as a result of the retcon, it's a technicality worth noting.

That said, addressing your point about Mephisto, I don't know that cosmic significance in terms of the effect on reality and mystic significance in terms of Mephisto's bailiwick would necessarily be in sync.And the answer to that question likely lies, at least in part, in how much importance individuals assign individual relationships into the overall scheme of life and how it plays out. Sort of a variation of the whole "Can one person truly make a difference?" discussion.

Expletive Deleted

10-28-2008, 11:19 AM

And the answer to that question likely lies, at least in part, in how much importance individuals assign individual relationships into the overall scheme of life and how it plays out. Sort of a variation of the whole "Can one person truly make a difference?" discussion. More or less.

That said, my main point about nature of the "main" timeline still stands. The MU is still the MU, regardless of whether or not an alternate timeline was created by the (arguably significant) event.

Jim Thompson

10-28-2008, 11:29 AM

More or less.

That said, my main point about nature of the "main" timeline still stands. The MU is still the MU, regardless of whether or not an alternate timeline was created by the (arguably significant) event.Sure. Even if the deal with Mephisto resulted in an alternate reality being created, clearly the one that was created is being used to represent the "base-line" or "main" 616 reality.

Gyroscope352

10-28-2008, 12:25 PM

ZT4

10-28-2008, 12:26 PM

It doesnt really resemble the classic Marvel Universe anymore anyway, it's Joe's sandbox. Whenever he pulls out, we'll probably see all of it retconned and we'll get a new sandbox.

Does this make sense? This is not the way it was explained to us, but I think this makes much more sense than actually altering reality.

That was initally one of Marvel's examples (as well as Tony wiping people's memories of his identity as Iron Man), but they realized MJ would be commiting adultery with Carr if they had simply "forgotten they were married", and they didnt want Peter and MJ divorcing (that would never be an option for either character), so they had to go with the time-travel route and retcon the wedding

CMBMOOL

10-28-2008, 12:29 PM

ShaggyB

10-28-2008, 12:48 PM

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet, but I see the Mephisto deal as very similar to what Reed Richards did with the Sentry. If that's not what it's supposed to be, it's what it should be. Like this:

Everything happened. MJ and Pete were married, tried to have a baby, etc. But Mephisto came in and erased their memories of it. Gave them new memories that were slightly different: perhaps they didn't try to get pregnant, etc. (details of the "new past" as Pete knows it have yet to be revealed) and gave them memories of them breaking up and whatnot. Just like with the Sentry. Does this make sense? This is not the way it was explained to us, but I think this makes much more sense than actually altering reality.

why not just erase the marriage though? If he's gonna change something and that changes things why not do it right?

btw guys, im moving up in my job which means i may not be on the boards as much during the day. Just figured id share. While the economy is down and lay offs are happening, ive been given a chance to step up.... I really appreciate threads like this and all the posters whom i have had the pleasure of discussing with on a daily basis. I hope i will have time to do what needs to be done and still be here but it sounds more as though i will end up focusing my attention elsewhere. Thanks for all the good times, this board is one of the best. (ps ill still be on occasionally at night as i am usually. But i still felt the need to thank you guys for the good times.)

Jim Thompson

10-28-2008, 01:20 PM

why not just erase the marriage though? If he's gonna change something and that changes things why not do it right?After nearly a year of the marriage being undone, the one constant seems to be there was really no "good" way to break up that marriage -- which is sort of telling in and of itself.

btw guys, im moving up in my job which means i may not be on the boards as much during the day. Just figured id share. While the economy is down and lay offs are happening, ive been given a chance to step up.... I really appreciate threads like this and all the posters whom i have had the pleasure of discussing with on a daily basis. I hope i will have time to do what needs to be done and still be here but it sounds more as though i will end up focusing my attention elsewhere. Thanks for all the good times, this board is one of the best. (ps ill still be on occasionally at night as i am usually. But i still felt the need to thank you guys for the good times.)Congrats on the promotion! Soon you'll be one of the oligarchy! :biggrin:

ZT4

10-28-2008, 01:25 PM

Good hunting Shaggy.

James Conniff

10-28-2008, 04:03 PM

It doesnt really resemble the classic Marvel Universe anymore anyway, it's Joe's sandbox. Whenever he pulls out, we'll probably see all of it retconned and we'll get a new sandbox. I don't see Marvel Changign direction any time soon. Especially not when they control around fifty percent market share int he comic book industry, and this is after years of Joe's sandbox.

why not just erase the marriage though? If he's gonna change something and that changes things why not do it right? I don't know of a good way to do it. Besides using someone slightly more connected to Spidey(Loki has been mentioned here) I don't know how else you undo the marriage right.

btw guys, im moving up in my job which means i may not be on the boards as much during the day. Just figured id share. While the economy is down and lay offs are happening, ive been given a chance to step up.... I really appreciate threads like this and all the posters whom i have had the pleasure of discussing with on a daily basis. I hope i will have time to do what needs to be done and still be here but it sounds more as though i will end up focusing my attention elsewhere. Thanks for all the good times, this board is one of the best. (ps ill still be on occasionally at night as i am usually. But i still felt the need to thank you guys for the good times.)

Good job, sir. Have fun being "the man".

BlackToe

10-28-2008, 06:06 PM

What do you take that to mean? That one's destiny is not linked to time, and that there are multiple possibilities for one's destiny -- or that one is going to meet the same fate regardless of one's decisions?

That time and destiny are seperate entities. Time can be represented as a room and destiny can exist outside of it.

ie: Kang, Doom, Kulan Gath, Thor, Dr.Strange, Spider-man, Reed Richards, Franklin Richards, Celestials, Exiles etc

Think of destiny amounting to a memory from the future. For instance, you already passed the date on the calendar on the day you will die or your future grandchildren will be born or the complete end of Earth.

Yeah, the original timeline ended once the deal was made. Thus, the original universe ended, replaced by the current one, where a lot of things are similar but some big stuff is different (no marriage, no pregnancy).

Then you can apply that to every time travel, reality warping incident ever created in the MU before OMD. Technically the "original" universe ended the exact moment a singular entity travelled back through time or through reality for the first time.

because the original timeline still existed in parallel to the MC2 timeline. MC2 is the perfect example of a divergent reality. It is based on an event that happened but not the way 616 has it recorded. Its not a time travel snafu. Its a different universe entirely.

616 has now become BND616. 616 OMD is gone. the only thing that is even close is the parallel world that is MC2, where in pete gets married but loses a leg in gathering of the five.

I disagree. 616 is still 616. Otherwise you will have apply that reasoning to every time travel or reality warping experience throughout known and unknown history. Just think of it as a expanded bubble within a bubble within a bubble.

Yeah, the main difference now is that the divergent timeline overwrote the previous one, rather than simply existing alongside of it.

So now we're left with MU 616X, or 616 2.0, or what have you. Not the same as the original 616, but essentially it's "upgrade" (or downgrade, IMO).

Technically its always been 616X. Even before OMD.

Time is a measurable, if only partial understood part of observable reality.

Destiny and fate are fantasys to make us feel better about the world, "It was destinyu" is much more comfortable than "Sh** happens"

Time doesnt exist. Only reality and perception. Destiny is just a memory of ourselves throughout space time.

oldschool

10-28-2008, 06:28 PM

why not just erase the marriage though? If he's gonna change something and that changes things why not do it right?

btw guys, im moving up in my job which means i may not be on the boards as much during the day. Just figured id share. While the economy is down and lay offs are happening, ive been given a chance to step up.... I really appreciate threads like this and all the posters whom i have had the pleasure of discussing with on a daily basis. I hope i will have time to do what needs to be done and still be here but it sounds more as though i will end up focusing my attention elsewhere. Thanks for all the good times, this board is one of the best. (ps ill still be on occasionally at night as i am usually. But i still felt the need to thank you guys for the good times.)

Congrats on the promo, Shaggy!! Make sure you still stop by at night to chat with us "rank and file"!! :wink:

CMBMOOL

10-28-2008, 06:31 PM

The Shadow

10-28-2008, 06:32 PM

btw guys, im moving up in my job which means i may not be on the boards as much during the day. Just figured id share. While the economy is down and lay offs are happening, ive been given a chance to step up.... I really appreciate threads like this and all the posters whom i have had the pleasure of discussing with on a daily basis. I hope i will have time to do what needs to be done and still be here but it sounds more as though i will end up focusing my attention elsewhere. Thanks for all the good times, this board is one of the best. (ps ill still be on occasionally at night as i am usually. But i still felt the need to thank you guys for the good times.)
Best wishes!

Congrats on the promotion too!

:smile: :smile:

Jim Thompson

10-28-2008, 06:32 PM

That time and destiny are seperate entities. Time can be represented as a room and destiny can exist outside of it.Time and destiny are likely separate entities. Having said that, destiny may in fact need time in order for the very concept to have meaning. I think you are trying to separate out two things which may be more closely linked than you're acknowledging here.

Jim Thompson

10-28-2008, 06:34 PM

Time doesnt exist. Only reality and perception. Destiny is just a memory of ourselves throughout space time.BTW, this is very much open to debate. Time may in fact be a constant -- one which people may or may not acknowledge.

BlackToe

10-28-2008, 06:51 PM

Time and destiny are likely separate entities. Having said that, destiny may in fact need time in order for the very concept to have meaning. I think you are trying to separate out two things which may be more closely linked than you're acknowledging here.

They do need each other true, as the master time room is basically the universe as a whole until it dies by either expanding, getting colder or becoming so massive is collapses in on itself creating the master substance and starts again. Technically every molecule or aspect of reality in the universe is connected.

I was speaking in terms of lifespan and the correlation between existing outside of time. ie: Kang/Rama-Tut

BTW, this is very much open to debate. Time may in fact be a constant -- one which people may or may not acknowledge.

Of course. The human race will literally never know in the end. But I'm giving my "lock of the week" to Time being a sub category classification of reality.

But what IS time? Is it the rate of which molecule vibrations deplete? Or is it a representation of lightspeed? Because the stars in the sky are literally a photo from eons ago. The actual reality of space is happening as I move my fingers across this keyboard. We're just too far to receive updates on current reality as a whole.

Muscles Coleman

10-28-2008, 07:02 PM

Mephisto DID in fact create a new reality, one in which the same questions are debated over and over to no end, and where identical angry topics are posted over and over every day on internet message boards everywhere, and whiny weiner-boys think sales increases are really decreases, and Marvel editors are out to get you. DAMN YOU MEPHISTO.

stillanerd

10-28-2008, 07:21 PM

btw guys, im moving up in my job which means i may not be on the boards as much during the day. Just figured id share. While the economy is down and lay offs are happening, ive been given a chance to step up.... I really appreciate threads like this and all the posters whom i have had the pleasure of discussing with on a daily basis. I hope i will have time to do what needs to be done and still be here but it sounds more as though i will end up focusing my attention elsewhere. Thanks for all the good times, this board is one of the best. (ps ill still be on occasionally at night as i am usually. But i still felt the need to thank you guys for the good times.)

:cool: Congratulations, Shaggy. And good luck.:smile:

ShaggyB

10-28-2008, 08:26 PM

thanks guys. i'll still stop in at night for sure, im just not as constant at night.

Its been an intresting day to say the least. Tomorrow the fun begins.

But what IS time? Is it the rate of which molecule vibrations deplete? Or is it a representation of lightspeed? Because the stars in the sky are literally a photo from eons ago. The actual reality of space is happening as I move my fingers across this keyboard. We're just too far to receive updates on current reality as a whole.

I'll raise you the Universe is constantly expanding, making those eons even further away and thus further in time.

Hertz

10-29-2008, 12:16 AM

Good luck with your new position tomorrow Shaggy.

Jim Thompson

10-29-2008, 05:22 AM

TI was speaking in terms of lifespan and the correlation between existing outside of time. ie: Kang/Rama-Tut.It's interesting you've chosen to use a character who is defined by time (and who believes it is his destiny to rule in all times) in order to make a supposition that time and destiny might not be linked. :biggrin:

Of course. The human race will literally never know in the end. But I'm giving my "lock of the week" to Time being a sub category classification of reality.Well, first off it's not a given the human race will never know the end of time. It's just statistically improbable. Likewise, I think it's just as possible what we call reality is merely a sub-category of time.

BlackToe

10-29-2008, 05:52 AM

It's interesting you've chosen to use a character who is defined by time (and who believes it is his destiny to rule in all times) in order to make a supposition that time and destiny might not be linked. :biggrin:

He is defined by time, but he also exists outside of it with multiple variations of himself throughout history.

Well, first off it's not a given the human race will never know the end of time. It's just statistically improbable. Likewise, I think it's just as possible what we call reality is merely a sub-category of time.

How can reality be under time, when time is a perception of reality?

Jim Thompson

10-29-2008, 06:54 AM

HHow can reality be under time, when time is a perception of reality?Because, as you say, it's only a perception -- not a given. So it is possible "reality" is nothing more than a sub-component of time.

Badboy_Beavz

10-29-2008, 08:48 AM

Because, as you say, it's only a perception -- not a given. So it is possible "reality" is nothing more than a sub-component of time.

Perception may not have been the best choice of words. Time is a derivative of reality and thus can't be a subcategory of it.

We can exist within a reality without time; time in the most literal, non-philosophic sense of the word- a measurement created by man; cavemen did it for centuries.

However, there can not be time without reality.

Jim Thompson

10-29-2008, 10:08 AM

Perception may not have been the best choice of words. Time is a derivative of reality and thus can't be a subcategory of it.

We can exist within a reality without time; time in the most literal, non-philosophic sense of the word- a measurement created by man; cavemen did it for centuries.

However, there can not be time without reality.Now this I'll buy for a dollar -- or is it a Euro?

BlackToe

10-29-2008, 05:18 PM

ZT4

10-29-2008, 05:35 PM

Mephisto DID in fact create a new reality, one in which the same questions are debated over and over to no end, and where identical angry topics are posted over and over every day on internet message boards everywhere, and whiny weiner-boys

...And people make a-level hypocrites of themselves being a whiny weiner about "whiny weiners":rolleyes:

Scott Taylor

10-29-2008, 11:10 PM

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? If Spiderman's marriage didn't happen and no one was around to see it not happen, did anything really happen?

Well, i tried.

Jim Thompson

10-30-2008, 04:40 AM

We can exist within a reality without time; time in the most literal, non-philosophic sense of the word- a measurement created by man; cavemen did it for centuries. Still like this, but I was giving it some thought last night and bouncing it off some texts, and here's the thing:

This is a hypothesis, too. It's not a given, meaning that, since it seems impossible for us to exist in a reality without time. I take your point that time is a measurement we've created, but the statement's not quite accurate. Time is there regardless of how we quantify or how our lexicon describes it. Time seems to be a universal, and, as such, I'm not certain we have the ability to exist outside of it.

agirlyman

10-30-2008, 10:44 PM

Yes, Peter Parker never left Hades, his whole life is taking place in one of Mephisto's snow globes, and the Spiderman in New Avengers, and SI is a skrull.

jackolover

11-01-2008, 04:33 AM

its more in line with Age of Apocalypse.

A time traveler changes something in the past and creates a divergent timeline. The old timeline ceases to be due to said change and we move on from there.

The only way back is to stop the change. To stop the change you have to stop the deal, which never existed. Ah catch 22's

So how does Cable justify coming to the past, when he has already experienced life in the future, but he doesn't like it. So he comes to the past and changes that? To me, Cable has jumped into an alternate universe just by being here.

jackolover

11-01-2008, 04:44 AM

thats a good theory but as we've seen with AOA, Marvel doesnt work like that. Xavier die'n destroyed the current timeline. The only way to restore it was to send bishop back to stop the killing from happening.

616 was gone. 616 became AOA. its not like dc were flash can vibrate at a different frequency and end up on earth 2. We are speaking of timelines. If Xavier dies, you dont get the timeline you know.

with Mephisto we have a different issue. Mephisto changes the marriage because of a deal in the present. He's a reality bender, least in the story, so technically he cant be stopped in the way that bishop took down legion. He snaps his fingers in the past and the wedding is off. To stop him, one has to stop the deal. The issue becomes the deal happened in the present time of a destroyed timeline. Its gone. You can go back in time to the split and follow a divergent line back. You cant cross over to it, because it no longer exists.

See in DC we have the multiverse in that there are 52 realities where some things happened differently. They exist unto themselves, with one link between them (not that one cant go between them).... that being mister mind and booster golds adventures in 52. Other than that, they are not reliant on any common ground. Example: In one Superman lands in Russia not kansas. Meanwhile in another superman lands in kansas. Its not as if mephisto went back and knocked the the ship ofcourse. Its two seperate events.

Clearly this is not how marvel does a time travel story. As shown through AOA, when a change happens in the past.... the timeline that it effects is destroyed. If legion had missed both Xavier and Magneto and hit Dock worker #12, the current Marvel Universe would have ceased to be, yet since Dock Worker #12 wasnt critical to many of the events in the Marvel Universe, they would still remain the same. Though DW #12's family would have drastically been altered.

You can argue that it by loose definition is a new reality because its not the same, but you cant say the old one still exists, which is why id say its an altered timeline not a new reality. Where as the DW #12 example the timeline would be mostly the same just like BND.

So MJ is DW #12, so no effect on the timeline. Then Harry Osborn didn't die, and his Parents of Peter Parker storyline didn't occur. Parker never went all depressive for 12 months, and didn't ask Daredevil how does he cope? Parker never went into the coccoon to emerge as something else. Of course, all the clone saga happened, even if Harry was there to witness all of it, and Harry wouldn't have done anything about it, maybe.

jackolover

11-01-2008, 04:52 AM

What do you take that to mean? That one's destiny is not linked to time, and that there are multiple possibilities for one's destiny -- or that one is going to meet the same fate regardless of one's decisions?

I'd like to think that we can change our destiny by altering our behaviour with knowledge. But I am coming to the conclusion we are locked into a driven destiny by forces we are unable to resist. By this I mean we have a specific personality-behaviour pattern and that will lead us to only one destiny. Like a one track mind.

jackolover

11-01-2008, 04:57 AM

You know, of course, by that logic the marriage is destined to be. :tongue:

You'd think. Maybe Mephisto has a stronger influence over the shortest path theory.

jackolover

11-01-2008, 05:02 AM

See, I'm with Neo here -- I don't like the idea of pre-destination. :biggrin:

How do you see it then? Can somebody open their horizon to go in directions they were never meant to go?

jackolover

11-01-2008, 05:08 AM

no it started with Amazing Fantasy #15. It ends with ________. Marvel will stay in the middle to tell stories as that is where the money is.

So the question is, will the eventual re-marriage come in the final chapter of the story or the next chapter?

That being said, do you think marvel has any intentions of leaving the chapter they are in.....

Depends on whether the MJ marriage was practical. ('practical' being a simplicity that is more complicated than it sounds).

I look at it this way. Gwen Stacy is a great character, and should have been Peter Parkers wife. Destiny stepped in and we, the readers, couldn't have Gwen Stacy as Peter Parkers wife. Along comes MJ, and she does in fact become Pater Parkers wife, but in all honesty, is MJ any more worthy of the title of wife than Gwen Stacy?

Spiderman is Spiderman for a reason. Maybe he isn't supposed to have this kind of relationship. Maybe MJ is the closest a Spider-Man can become to married, without actually being married. There is your destiny right there.

jackolover

11-01-2008, 05:14 AM

Actually, technically that's not true. If you believe in destiny, your choices have been pre-determined -- meaning you have no choices.

I'm more inclined to the Frank Herbert viewpoint in Dune. You are drawn inextricably to your destiny and don't know it till you get there.

jackolover

11-01-2008, 05:25 AM

And let's not forget that if the reboot hadnt occured, Tom was going to bring back Mayday and Mackie would have taken over ASM with that in mind, but he insisted on bringing back Aunt May with Byrne. I wonder how things would have been had they opted to keep Mayday?

Would that have been a disaster? Peter Parker changing dipers for 50 issues, and being daddy to a little girl, while the Rhino comes racing through the park while they have a picnic?

jackolover

11-01-2008, 05:30 AM

jackolover

11-01-2008, 05:47 AM

To talk of that i will have to grant you that mephisto is messing with God, I believe he is not and never has.... other than to use his name in vain while trying to convince people he is satan.

But i'll play along for now because i like your comment....

God, knowing what choices Peter will make before he makes them, should already know that peter will say yes to the deal and thus change time. God would therefor have taken that into his planning.... Making Mephisto's deal pointless to spite God because he was counting on it.

Though i do like your theory...Mephisto given the power to change things but not the power to achieve his goals, only to think that he will.

Well then we're all mad, just as Mephisto is insane for believing any action has a worthwhile outcome. If we imagine God has this infallibility in his actions, that no matter what Mephisto does, (or we in fact) then everything turns out like God wants it, and we have been at a mad hatters tea party all this time, trying to sway some inexhaustable force against producing our intended destiny.

I'm more inclined to think mankind is the weaver of creation, or, the God we so enjoy praying too for help.

ZT4

11-01-2008, 11:41 AM

Marvel "sleptwalked" into the ending of Spider-Man years ago. Spider-Girl's went ten years now and it's more or less accepted by it's fans it as the definitive epilouge and something in it's own right. Marvel have recognised this for years, but have always had trouble translating it to audiences because MC2 is utterly a niche concept. I feel a little sorry for 'em because in an ideal market with a more diverse crowd, they'd have translated this message succesfully. It's a combination of shy marketing and people refusing to embrace change on a larger scale.

If fans choose to deny the story is over, much like Marvel have the past ten years, that's more of a problem because that means they accept whatever crap is needed to make that final chapter unreachable...and it's way too late, because we reached it, Marvel are still publishing a good ending, and that story is ended in 2009 again, possibly for good.

I look at it this way. Gwen Stacy is a great character, and should have been Peter Parkers wife. Destiny stepped in and we, the readers, couldn't have Gwen Stacy as Peter Parkers wife. Along comes MJ, and she does in fact become Pater Parkers wife, but in all honesty, is MJ any more worthy of the title of wife than Gwen Stacy?

Yes she is, she was a superior character to pretty much the entirety of Peter's female cast (who were either emotional cripples, superficial criminals, or psychopaths), because she was ordinary and didnt judge Peter

Marvel have made it clear in USM and Spidey Loves MJ that a more emotionally stable Gwen knows Peter loves MJ more than her, and the USM version only thinks of herself as a sister to Peter

The emotionally crippled Gwen from 616 would have married Peter, but deep down, probably knew MJ was the right person for him. Hell I've always thought of this realization as the real reason she fell into Norman's arms more than the size of his grief-striken pumpkin balls.

Spiderman is Spiderman for a reason. Maybe he isn't supposed to have this kind of relationship.

Considering that Marvel recently gave MC2 a pro-marraige prequel, there's no point in bringing up whenever he's meant for it or not, because he is meant for it., and Marvel, for all their current, baffling behaviour...seem to want to make that very clear.

It's not a question of whenever or not he's meant to have a relationship, it's more a question of "Is he supposed to have an infinite story"...and the answer over the last ten years has been a resoundingly firm "no". It's either a complete reboot, or bust now.

ZT4

11-01-2008, 11:48 AM

Would that have been a disaster? Peter Parker changing dipers for 50 issues, and being daddy to a little girl?

It's only have been a disaster if Mackie had been writing it. It'd have made Peter more interesting and relatable than before

Read "Mr and Mrs Spider-Man" and you'll get a small taste of what this status quoe would have resembled.

Jim Thompson

11-01-2008, 01:29 PM

How do you see it then? Can somebody open their horizon to go in directions they were never meant to go?Lot o' responses you've come back with. I'll start with this one.

I think the very notion that there are directions we are "supposed" to go in is something of a misnomer and very limiting. I think people, in the main, are only limited by what they decide to be limited by.

Jim Thompson

11-01-2008, 01:35 PM

Who says Mephisto is trying to thwart some concept of God? Are you saying Mephisto only exists because of some reciprical God?Mephisto did, in the last issue of OMD when he was talking with Peter and MJ:

"Have you thought for a second to ask yourselves why? Why I chose you two out of all people?

"It's because yours is the rarest love of all.

"Pure, unconditional and made holy in the eyes of He who I hate most.

"A love like yours comes about but once in a millennia and to take that away from Him...

"...to deny Him...

"...is a victory like none other imaginable."

Jim Thompson

11-01-2008, 01:36 PM

I'd like to think that we can change our destiny by altering our behaviour with knowledge. But I am coming to the conclusion we are locked into a driven destiny by forces we are unable to resist. By this I mean we have a specific personality-behaviour pattern and that will lead us to only one destiny. Like a one track mind.So what motivates you to improve, or to strive toward some goal? Or do you believe that is all pre-determined?

jackolover

11-01-2008, 01:53 PM

Yes she is, she was a superior character to pretty much the entirety of Peter's female cast (who were either emotional cripples, superficial criminals, or psychopaths), because she was ordinary and didnt judge Peter

Marvel have made it clear in USM and Spidey Loves MJ that a more emotionally stable Gwen knows Peter loves MJ more than her, and the USM version only thinks of herself as a sister to Peter

The emotionally crippled Gwen from 616 would have married Peter, but deep down, probably knew MJ was the right person for him. Hell I've always thought of this realization as the real reason she fell into Norman's arms more than the size of his grief-striken pumpkin balls..

Never have I considered that Gwen Stacy thought MJ was the better person for Peter Parker. There was a revelry there, but why would Gwen think a ditz like MJ could make Peter a good wife? Or are you saying by some stretch that Gwen realised Peter and MJ were meant for each other? Then why didn't Peter realise it?

The reason, for me anyways, that Gwen fell into the arms of Norman Osborn, is not because she felt MJ has Peters heart, but because Peter and Gwen went through a difficult time just trying to get together. They were basically separated, but Peter didn't go running into the arms of MJ. Peter was pining the whole time for Gwen Stacy. Gwen was too tied up with blaming Spiderman for all her troubles, and never got to the point of working out Peter and Spiderman were much closer than her little brain could concieve. You would think someone as close as Gwen Stacy to Peter would realise you can't have Peter Parker without getting Spider-Man in your life as well. She didn't like it, and that's what tore them apart. Not Gwen realising MJ was Peters first love.

Considering that Marvel recently gave MC2 a pro-marraige prequel, there's no point in bringing up whenever he's meant for it or not, because he is meant for it., and Marvel, for all their current, baffling behaviour...seem to want to make that very clear.

It's not a question of whenever or not he's meant to have a relationship, it's more a question of "Is he supposed to have an infinite story"...and the answer over the last ten years has been a resoundingly firm "no". It's either a complete reboot, or bust now.

Good answer. No matter how unworthy Spiderman appears to be towards being a married man, Marvel has shown they can make SM a husband.

jackolover

11-01-2008, 01:58 PM

Lot o' responses you've come back with. I'll start with this one.

I think the very notion that there are directions we are "supposed" to go in is something of a misnomer and very limiting. I think people, in the main, are only limited by what they decide to be limited by.

See, that's how I think Peter Parker never gets to be the husband that most other people get to be. He has a limiting factor (in editorial, grant you), that will never make him stay married. The MC2 Peter Parker, for all we know, may just be wishful thinking.

jackolover

11-01-2008, 02:05 PM

Mephisto did, in the last issue of OMD when he was talking with Peter and MJ:

"Have you thought for a second to ask yourselves why? Why I chose you two out of all people?

"It's because yours is the rarest love of all.

"Pure, unconditional and made holy in the eyes of He who I hate most.

"A love like yours comes about but once in a millennia and to take that away from Him...

"...to deny Him...

"...is a victory like none other imaginable."

Yes, I forgot that there was that conversation. Okay leaving aside the comic character of Mephisto being dependant on this reciprical God for a minute, how do you reconcile the voice of Mephisto in regards to the editorial voice making a pronouncement like this to a character? Is it the editorial voice being a fiasco? By this I mean, the editorial voice also knows that the destiny of Peter and MJ is to have this fabulous ideal love. Why does the editorial voice persist in this line of story? Either JQ wants this to blow up in his face, later on, or, JQ just wants to be sensational for a while. Because if the editorial voice is so sure the Peter-MJ relationship is so fabulous, all this BND achieves is an interlude.

Jim Thompson

11-01-2008, 02:09 PM

See, that's how I think Peter Parker never gets to be the husband that most other people get to be. He has a limiting factor (in editorial, grant you), that will never make him stay married. The MC2 Peter Parker, for all we know, may just be wishful thinking.To me, the MC2 Parker shows the concept is not only possible, but viable -- like USM shows a single Peter in high-school also works.

Right now, to me, the regular 616 interpretation of the character is the weakest of the lot, simply because it seems like a caricature of itself.

Jim Thompson

11-01-2008, 02:11 PM

Yes, I forgot that there was that conversation. Okay leaving aside the comic character of Mephisto being dependant on this reciprical God for a minute, how do you reconcile the voice of Mephisto in regards to the editorial voice making a pronouncement like this to a character? Is it the editorial voice being a fiasco? By this I mean, the editorial voice also knows that the destiny of Peter and MJ is to have this fabulous ideal love. Why does the editorial voice persist in this line of story? Either JQ wants this to blow up in his face, later on, or, JQ just wants to be sensational for a while. Because if the editorial voice is so sure the Peter-MJ relationship is so fabulous, all this BND achieves is an interlude.I honestly think Joe Q was trying to throw the pro-marriage crowd a bone with those lines, and that he simply didn't see either the third and fourth order effects of the dialouge, or the huge holes it punched in his logic for doing away with the marriage in the way he decided to do it.

jackolover

11-01-2008, 02:12 PM

So what motivates you to improve, or to strive toward some goal? Or do you believe that is all pre-determined?

Pretty much pre-destined. I think, unless you can get to a place, or person who can do some pretty radical 'healing' on you, you will be stuck as the person you are for the rest of your life, education or not.

I think are are some pretty hefty walls to our psychies, that don't come down just by us trying to tell them so. It takes a concerted effort, on the part of an outside influence, to break a person free of his many conditioned patterns.

stillanerd

11-01-2008, 02:13 PM

Yes, I forgot that there was that conversation. Okay leaving aside the comic character of Mephisto being dependant on this reciprical God for a minute, how do you reconcile the voice of Mephisto in regards to the editorial voice making a pronouncement like this to a character? Is it the editorial voice being a fiasco? By this I mean, the editorial voice also knows that the destiny of Peter and MJ is to have this fabulous ideal love. Why does the editorial voice persist in this line of story? Either JQ wants this to blow up in his face, later on, or, JQ just wants to be sensational for a while. Because if the editorial voice is so sure the Peter-MJ relationship is so fabulous, all this BND achieves is an interlude.

Congratulations. You have just stumbled upon what could very well be the real reason why One More Day dissolved the marriage.

jackolover

11-01-2008, 02:15 PM

To me, the MC2 Parker shows the concept is not only possible, but viable -- like USM shows a single Peter in high-school also works.

Right now, to me, the regular 616 interpretation of the character is the weakest of the lot, simply because it seems like a caricature of itself.

But how do you break editorial out of that caricature of Peter Parker? I have heard people refer to Peter Parker as the Peter Pan of comics. I think Paul Jenkins may have mentioned it in one of his stories. Do you think maybe this has been written in stone somewhere, and nobody is going to break that stone?

jackolover

11-01-2008, 02:18 PM

I honestly think Joe Q was trying to throw the pro-marriage crowd a bone with those lines, and that he simply didn't see either the third and fourth order effects of the dialouge, or the huge holes it punched in his logic for doing away with the marriage in the way he decided to do it.

You could be right. Counter-psychology just to appease the masses.

Jim Thompson

11-01-2008, 02:21 PM

But how do you break editorial out of that caricature of Peter Parker? I have heard people refer to Peter Parker as the Peter Pan of comics. I think Paul Jenkins may have mentioned it in one of his stories. Do you think maybe this has been written in stone somewhere, and nobody is going to break that stone?I think the people at Marvel who say they are simply looking out for the long-term best interests of the character truly believe they are doing just that. Having said that, what they see as being the best thing in the interest of the character is nothing more than a perception, and their perceptions seem to be rooted in what the character was during their childhood. Those would be hard to overcome, so I really don't see the character returning to it's forward motion until a new generation of creators takes over, kids who grew up with a married Spider-Man.

And even then I don't know as they'll remarry the character, but they will likely decide the time has come to move him forward again, as opposed to the backward, simplified nature of the character today (at least in ASM).

And, yes Shadow, this is simply my opinion about all this. :tongue: