Canadian Election October 14 [Archive] - Comic Book Resources Forums

Gary_B

10-13-2008, 11:14 AM

We are having an election tomorrow. I'd love to see Prime Minister Steven Harper lose but the numbers don't suggest that this will happen. The most likely outcome is that him and his Conservative party will continue to govern with a minority government.

A twist to this election is the unusual move from Green party leader Elizabeth May to encourage her supporters to vote strategically. Her argument is that any party other than the Conservatives will be better for the environment so she is providing maps and information about the likely outcome for all of the ridings across the country. If a Conservative looks like they have a hope of winning she encourages her supporters to vote for the party that stands the best chance of beating them. In my Victoria riding (http://www.voteforenvironment.ca/node/155) the Green party is encouraging it's supporters to vote for the incumbent New Democrat Party member of parliament. I plan to follow her advice.

Environmental concerns have guided my choices in every election I've voted in and I have supported the NDP several times.

Matt Algren

10-13-2008, 11:19 AM

FINALLY! Your elections take forever!!!

:wink:

The Batman

10-13-2008, 12:01 PM

With less than a day to go, I am still torn between voting NDP (http://tarasnatyshak.ca/) and voting Liberal (http://www.susanwhelan.ca/).

Voting strategically gives Susan Whelan my vote (and that might be what sends me over to her side) but the Liberal party isn't inspiring my with the same confidence that the NDP is this year. My pet issues are the health of Southwestern Ontario's economic/industrial sector, funding for education and the arts, Canada's role in the world, and the environment.

howyadoin

10-13-2008, 01:23 PM

A twist to this election is the unusual move from Green party leader Elizabeth May to encourage her supporters to vote strategically. Her argument is that any party other than the Conservatives will be better for the environment so she is providing maps and information about the likely outcome for all of the ridings across the country. If a Conservative looks like they have a hope of winning she encourages her supporters to vote for the party that stands the best chance of beating them.That's pretty good advice. Pretty much how I've been planning to vote.

Ontir

10-13-2008, 01:24 PM

Gary_B

10-13-2008, 01:39 PM

I know Canada has a parliamentary system, but I don't really know how that works. I thought a party had to have a majority to have the Prime Ministership. I also don't know the difference between your parties.

Most governments formed in my life time have been majorities but the last couple have been minorities. Minority governments tend to be less arrogant because they need the co-operation of the other parties to pass legislation. Our current Prime Minister is very arrogant so preventing him from winning a majority is a good thing.

A very simplified explanation of our parties would be:

Conservative Party = US Republican Party (More Right wing)
Liberal Party = US Democrat (Right wing)
New Democrat Party = left wing
Green = environment first
The Bloc Québécois = looking out for the interests of Québec

The Batman

10-13-2008, 02:28 PM

I dunno, I'd put most of the Canadian parties to the Left of their American counterparts.

Sabrina_Fried

10-13-2008, 02:51 PM

The best part about the election tomorrow: No more election commercials!!! (Well, not Canadian ones anyway)

Honestly, I'm voting ABC in this election - Anything But Conservative. But I still haven't decided which of the other jokers running in this riding are getting my vote. I don't particularly like any of them. There are something like 9 candidates in my riding, but only the NDP and the Green candidate bothered to do the door to door thing this year. So it will probably be one of them.

If Harperbot gets another minority government (which I think is the best case scenario at this point) we'll probably be doing this again in 18 months or so. And I'm fairly certain he will pull the trigger himself, again.

Ontir, the way it works is this:

Each province is broken up into ridings, where the locals vote for candidates that will represent their riding in the federal legislature. Under the current system, canddiates can either claim allegance to a political party (and not just the big 5 - Liberal, Conservative (nee Reform), NDP, Green or Bloc Quebecois - but smaller ones too) or run as independents. The candidate who gets the most votes in their riding wins. The government will be formed from the winners thusly:

The party with the most candidates (ie seats in parliament) becomes the ruling party. The leader of that party becomes prime minister.

The runner up party becomes the official opposition. It's their DUTY to give the ruling party a hard time to ensure that they continue to act in the best interests of Canada and the people who live here. If the ruling party gets out of hand, they are obligated to use their voting power to bring down the government, or at least vote down bills not in the best interest of Canadians. The Liberals were the official opposition in the last government, but they did a horrible job at it because they basically found convenient excuses to abstain from voting down anything controversial. Case in point: This election should have happened months ago, but the official opposition didn't do their job and either abstained from voting on trivial confidence votes or voted WITH the ruling party. So finally Harper was forced to dissolve parliament and call the election himself (breaking the rule about fixed election dates that the Conservatives put in place themselves in the process).

The rest of the parties and the independents can basically do what they want, but most throw in their lot with the official opposition.

When the combined voting power of the official opposition and everyone else is bigger than the ruling party, you have a minority government. Minority governments tend to be very short lived in Canada (most last less than 18 months), because in order for the ruling party to get ANYTHING done, they have to either call for open votes in the House and win, or else they have to get enough of the independents/non-official opposition parties to vote with them to overpower the official opposition.

If the ruling party takes so many seats that the voting bloc of the official opposition and everyone else combined can't outvote them, then you have a majority government. These are big trouble for Canada (especially when Conservatives are in power) because it basically means that the ruling party can do what they want and there are few legal ways to stop them.

Sabrina

howyadoin

10-13-2008, 02:53 PM

I also don't know the difference between your parties.Between Liberal and Conservative?

Seriously?

thespianphryne

10-13-2008, 03:08 PM

Between Liberal and Conservative?

Seriously?

Words mean different in Canadia

Athena Bast

10-13-2008, 03:14 PM

I know Canada has a parliamentary system, but I don't really know how that works. I thought a party had to have a majority to have the Prime Ministership. I also don't know the difference between your parties.

To get the Prime Minister job the leader of that party has to have more seats than any other party. With us having 4 major parties there can still be more on the opposition than in the government.

Say the house has 200 seats. Harper's Conservatives gets 75 of those seats, Liberals get 60, Bloc gets 40, and the NDP gets 25. The government is made up of the Conservatives because they as a single unit have more seats than any other party but are still outnumbered 75-125 on the whole.

Athena Bast

10-13-2008, 03:16 PM

I'm voting Green just because the candidate is someone I've known for years and plays down at the local GW store. I respect him a hell of a tonne.

Roquefort Raider

10-13-2008, 03:27 PM

I also hope we'll get a minority Conservative government, if only so the Liberal party can finish cleaning up its act. Chrétien's gang is still around after Paul Martin's short stay at the helm, and I'm not at all convinced that all the bigwigs involved in the sponsorship scandal (quite a big issue in Québec) are out of the game. It's too bad, because despite Dion's avalanche of promises (which would probably ruin the country if all implemented) I sort of like the party's platform.

Whoever I end up voting for won't make much of a difference anyway, because the Bloc Québécois will get the county once again. It looks as if there's something irresistible about a party whose sole purpose is to complain, complain and complain again. (I think it resonates with the fundamental human need to whine).

I wish we could vote Neo-rhinoceros like the people from five streets away.

J. Robb

10-13-2008, 03:54 PM

A twist to this election is the unusual move from Green party leader Elizabeth May to encourage her supporters to vote strategically.
The Green Party has issued a statement (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canadavotes/story/2008/10/12/may-strategic.html) saying Elizabeth May is not encouraging strategic voting.

"I do understand how difficult choices can be due to the perverse results of the first-past-the-post voting system. Canada needs an electoral system that accurately represents how Canadians vote.

"I repeated over and over that I would not advise voters to vote for anyone other than Greens. Attempts to misrepresent my position on this issue are tiring. I do not support strategic voting and I have not advised voters to choose any candidate other than Green."
Which I think is good, I'm against strategic voting. Elections are my only chance to make my voice heard, and I don't want to misrepresent myself.

AllisterH

10-13-2008, 04:02 PM

Conservative Party = US Republican Party (More Right wing)
Liberal Party = US Democrat (Right wing)
New Democrat Party = left wing
Green = environment first
The Bloc Québécois = looking out for the interests of Québec

NOT EVEN CLOSE.

Conservative PArty - Inbetween the democrats and republicans. Don't have a religious conservative side to it so not as bad as the republican party....

Liberal party - Left of the democrats and considered the natural governing party of Canada...

NDP - LEft-wing party. Does well in provincial politics but never has a decent shot of even making the official opposition

Greens - eft-wing, Environmental party that is starting to become more than a 1 issue party. Basically, May (the leader) is the only viable candidate.

Bloc Quebecois - Regional party that only concerns itself with Queber and quebec sovereigneity.

howyadoin

10-13-2008, 05:53 PM

Conservative PArty - Inbetween the democrats and republicans. Don't have a religious conservative side to it so not as bad as the republican party....Now that's just funny.

Dom

10-13-2008, 06:08 PM

Now that's just funny.

I'm a little frightened, actually.

Do people actually believe that?

berk

10-13-2008, 06:11 PM

I'm a little frightened, actually.

Do people actually believe that?Like a lot of people, he's probably confusing them with the old Tories, before the takeover by the very right-wing and religiously oriented Reformers. Not that that confusion wasn't deliberately created by those who engineered the takeover, of course.

howyadoin

10-13-2008, 06:12 PM

I'm a little frightened, actually.

Do people actually believe that?I doubt that anybody in B.C. does. I'd be willing to bet that lots of people in Alberta and Ontario rationalize it that way, though, even if they don't actually believe it.

SUPERECWFAN1

10-13-2008, 06:49 PM

I'm kinda shocked that Canada has elections. I always thought you guys would walk into the woods and if the White Moose came to you , you were Prime Minister til next year. Plus I thought there wasn't that many people in Canada too...and you all flipped a coin to see who goes into the woods 1st.

I am shocked..... :)

Sir Tim Drake

10-13-2008, 07:31 PM

Just in case anyone was wondering about what a "riding" is:

The word riding is descended from late Old English *þriðing or *þriding (recorded only in Latin contexts or forms, e.g., trehing, treding, trithing, with Latin initial t here representing the Old English letter thorn). It came into Old English as a loanword from Old Norse þriðjungr, meaning a third part (especially of a county), cf. farthing. The modern form riding was the result of initial th being absorbed in the final th or t of the words north, south, east and west, by which it was normally preceded.[2][3]

A common misconception holds that the term arose from some association between the size of the district and the distance that can be covered on horseback in a certain amount of time.

I totally would have thought that a "riding" was the distance a horse could ride in a day, or something like that. Silly me.

J. Robb

10-13-2008, 08:04 PM

AllisterH

10-13-2008, 09:22 PM

*Snort*

You honestly think Reform is as bad as the right-wing fundamentalist slice of the Republican party?

Please, put things into context. Most of reform were Western province MPs along the BQ-style politician.

They certainly had a social conservative agenda but to argue that this was a large section of the party along the lines of the Republican party.

Nope, I stand by my description of the parties...

We canadians simply don't have a right-wing party in the manner of Americans...

howyadoin

10-13-2008, 09:23 PM

*Snort*

You honestly think Reform is as bad as the right-wing fundamentalist slice of the Republican party?That's not quite what you said before, though, is it?

Chris N

10-13-2008, 09:25 PM

In my Victoria riding (http://www.voteforenvironment.ca/node/155) the Green party is encouraging it's supporters to vote for the incumbent New Democrat Party member of parliament. I plan to follow her advice.

Environmental concerns have guided my choices in every election I've voted in and I have supported the NDP several times.

If only such an idea had occurred to Nader.

AllisterH

10-13-2008, 09:30 PM

That's not quite what you said before, though, is it?

Er, REFORM != Conservative.

Sure, REFORM and the old Tories joined, but if you notice, the new conservatives have seriously moderated their speech and policies to appeal to the center of Canada's voters (who ARE left of Americans generally).

Even old school Reform was made up primarily of Bloc-style Western MPs with just a tad of religious overtones. The religious side of the party certainly wasn't the driving force of the old Reform as it is for the Us Republican party...

howyadoin

10-13-2008, 09:32 PM

Er, REFORM != Conservative.

Sure, REFORM and the old Tories joined, but if you notice, the new conservatives have seriously moderated their speech and policies to appeal to the center of Canada's voters (who ARE left of Americans generally).I guess what it comes down to for me is that I think Harper would gladly push more radical, religion-based ideas if he thought it would get him votes. Witness his attempts at dismantling gay marriage, or his pseudo-populist sneering at funding for the arts.

Athena Bast

10-13-2008, 09:50 PM

NOT EVEN CLOSE.

Conservative PArty - Inbetween the democrats and republicans. Don't have a religious conservative side to it so not as bad as the republican party....

Have you forgotten the Conservatives absorbed the Reform Party? Paging Stockwell Day...

Dom

10-13-2008, 09:56 PM

Gary_B

10-13-2008, 10:11 PM

Like a lot of people, he's probably confusing them with the old Tories, before the takeover by the very right-wing and religiously oriented Reformers. Not that that confusion wasn't deliberately created by those who engineered the takeover, of course.

Exactly. Preston Manning and his Reform Party didn't think that the Conservative Party was socially right enough or fiscally conservative enough.

*Snort*

You honestly think Reform is as bad as the right-wing fundamentalist slice of the Republican party?

Please, put things into context. Most of reform were Western province MPs along the BQ-style politician.

They certainly had a social conservative agenda but to argue that this was a large section of the party along the lines of the Republican party.

Nope, I stand by my description of the parties...

We canadians simply don't have a right-wing party in the manner of Americans...

I have plenty of memories of the Reform party being exposed for their representatives being racist and/or homophobic and those views being fuelled by Christian fundamental silliness.

Er, REFORM != Conservative.

Sure, REFORM and the old Tories joined, but if you notice, the new conservatives have seriously moderated their speech and policies to appeal to the center of Canada's voters (who ARE left of Americans generally).

Even old school Reform was made up primarily of Bloc-style Western MPs with just a tad of religious overtones. The religious side of the party certainly wasn't the driving force of the old Reform as it is for the Us Republican party...

I guess what it comes down to for me is that I think Harper would gladly push more radical, religion-based ideas if he thought it would get him votes. Witness his attempts at dismantling gay marriage, or his pseudo-populist sneering at funding for the arts.

Have you forgotten the Conservatives absorbed the Reform Party? Paging Stockwell Day...

Gary_B

10-13-2008, 10:34 PM

Like a lot of people, he's probably confusing them with the old Tories, before the takeover by the very right-wing and religiously oriented Reformers. Not that that confusion wasn't deliberately created by those who engineered the takeover, of course.

Exactly. Preston Manning and his Reform Party didn't think that the Conservative Party was socially right enough or fiscally conservative enough.

*Snort*

You honestly think Reform is as bad as the right-wing fundamentalist slice of the Republican party?

Please, put things into context. Most of reform were Western province MPs along the BQ-style politician.

They certainly had a social conservative agenda but to argue that this was a large section of the party along the lines of the Republican party.

Nope, I stand by my description of the parties...

We canadians simply don't have a right-wing party in the manner of Americans...

I have plenty of memories of the Reform party being exposed for their representatives being racist and/or homophobic and those views being fuelled by Christian fundamental silliness.

Er, REFORM != Conservative.

Sure, REFORM and the old Tories joined, but if you notice, the new conservatives have seriously moderated their speech and policies to appeal to the center of Canada's voters (who ARE left of Americans generally).

Even old school Reform was made up primarily of Bloc-style Western MPs with just a tad of religious overtones. The religious side of the party certainly wasn't the driving force of the old Reform as it is for the Us Republican party...

Actually Conservative = Reform.

The Reform Party criticized and challenged the Conservative Party to the point that they started stealing their votes. They successfully created a public perspective of the Right being divided and diluted. This eventually allowed them to create a coalition with the Progressive Conservative party and ultimately merge with them. The result, the Conservative Party, sounds very similar to the Progressive Conservative party that battled it out with the Liberals for many decades of Canadian political history but they are not the same animal. The current Conservative party is far righter, far whiter and far more red-necked than the Progressive Conservatives ever were.

Have you forgotten the Conservatives absorbed the Reform Party? Paging Stockwell Day...

My memory is that the Reform party diluted and replaced the Conservative party. I hate it when the media refers to Harper's Conservatives as Tories. Reform morphed into Coalition and eventually they replaced the Progressive Conservatives but they sure as shit are not the same animal.

SUPERECWFAN1

10-13-2008, 10:47 PM

Hi-larious.

That's what that this.

HIGH-LAiR-EEEE-US

I was going for a bit of Southpark humor here....ohh well.

AllisterH

10-14-2008, 02:25 AM

I guess what it comes down to for me is that I think Harper would gladly push more radical, religion-based ideas if he thought it would get him votes. Witness his attempts at dismantling gay marriage, or his pseudo-populist sneering at funding for the arts.

1. Old school tories have always hated the CBC and never understood the point. That's before the Reform party even was a twinkle in the eyes of Preston Manning. Hell, under Mulroney, I was constantly surprised that the funding for it was not cut.

Really, funding for the arts is firmly a fiscal conservative issue.

2. As for the gay marriage, *LOL*, given the American response to this and Harper's response, I believe that proves my point as to the Conservatives being to the left of the Republican party.

Their response was tepid at best.

even back in the day, comments from Reform that wouldn't even get a blink from a Republican congressman would cause Reform to lose numbers in even their own riding...

Hell, has Harper even come close to mentioning thinks like Faith-based inititatives. Has he even mentioned anything with respect to God or christian churches.

I'm voting Liberal today, but I certainly don't think it's the end of the world if Conservatives win....

Now, talk to me about the NDP forming a government and I have concerns (I rather have the Greens then the NDP frankly. Reading their economic platform actually is less out there than the NDP...)

Adam C

10-14-2008, 07:08 AM

1. Old school tories have always hated the CBC and never understood the point. That's before the Reform party even was a twinkle in the eyes of Preston Manning. Hell, under Mulroney, I was constantly surprised that the funding for it was not cut.

Because it provides us with a broadcaster in radio and television that at least offers mostly Canadian content and something different from the deluge of commercial programming. I mean with the CBC I can get radio news that's done with a fair bit of depth, some intelligent conversation on current affairs, discussions on books, and a radio station that doesn't play the same 12 songs over and over. (Granted Saskatoon also has an excellent volunteer run radio station funded through donations, though the programming is primarily musical and its scope is only local. I may not always be living in Saskatoon.)

That said the CBC's predecessor, the Canadian Radio Broadcasting Commission was established by Conservative PM R.B. Bennett.

Edit: I realise this is just me venting more than anything else.

Really, funding for the arts is firmly a fiscal conservative issue.

This is true, so why does Harper justify it with dishonest and hypocritical smear campaigns?

howyadoin

10-14-2008, 01:56 PM

This is true, so why does Harper justify it with dishonest and hypocritical smear campaigns?This is a rhetorical question, right?

Adam C

10-14-2008, 02:58 PM

This is a rhetorical question, right?

Yeah, pretty much.

Ontir

10-14-2008, 03:28 PM

To get the Prime Minister job the leader of that party has to have more seats than any other party. With us having 4 major parties there can still be more on the opposition than in the government.

Say the house has 200 seats. Harper's Conservatives gets 75 of those seats, Liberals get 60, Bloc gets 40, and the NDP gets 25. The government is made up of the Conservatives because they as a single unit have more seats than any other party but are still outnumbered 75-125 on the whole.

Thanks.

Howy, there were other parties listed, IIRC, and I wasn't sure what they were. Also, as someone else pointed out, "conservative" and "liberal" often mean different things in different countries. In the US, they have almost no meaning at all anymore.

berk

10-14-2008, 04:00 PM

Thanks.

Howy, there were other parties listed, IIRC, and I wasn't sure what they were. Also, as someone else pointed out, "conservative" and "liberal" often mean different things in different countries. In the US, they have almost no meaning at all anymore.You're lucky they didn't list all the others, like the Canadian Action Party, the Communist Party of Canada, the Communist party of Canada (Marxist-Leninist) (yes, that's two separate Communist parties who don't get along), not to mention some of the regional parties like the Newfoundland and Labrador First Party, the Western Block, ...

Wouldn't you know it, wiki has a page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_political_parties_in_Canada) for this, with links to the individual parties. Interesting stuff, for Canadians at least. I never would have guessed the Communist Party of Canada garnered over 100,000 votes in 1945, >2% of the popular vote, and even won a seat!

howyadoin

10-14-2008, 05:26 PM

Also, as someone else pointed out, "conservative" and "liberal" often mean different things in different countries. In the US, they have almost no meaning at all anymore.I would say that "Republican" and "Democrat" have almost no meaning at all. The actual definitions of "conservative" and "liberal" are still the same.

Adam C

10-14-2008, 05:42 PM

You're lucky they didn't list all the others, like the Canadian Action Party, the Communist Party of Canada, the Communist party of Canada (Marxist-Leninist) (yes, that's two separate Communist parties who don't get along)...

I'd find this surprising if I was not already aware of how much Leninists are like...well, comic fans come to think of it.

Kelman

10-14-2008, 05:55 PM

I'm originally from Alberta (the redneck province of Canada), so I'm very happy to be living in a city that doesn't have the Conservatives sweep all of the ridings. I've always voted either NDP or Liberal, so it's refreshing to live in Vancouver, where such political candidates have a chance (unlike in Calgary). I've accepted the fact that there will likely be another Conservative minority government, but who knows, perhaps down the road the Liberals and NDP can form a coalition and oust Stevo from power....

Gary_B

10-14-2008, 08:29 PM

mattx110

10-14-2008, 10:02 PM

I would say that "Republican" and "Democrat" have almost no meaning at all. The actual definitions of "conservative" and "liberal" are still the same.
Don't pay attention to these threads much?

Apparently the definitions of conservative and liberal are biased and need misuse to rectify the stupidity of europeans for being so fucking socialist...

morna

10-14-2008, 10:53 PM

bah BAH! I say

Gary_B

10-14-2008, 10:57 PM

It's over. The good news is that Steven Harper and the Conservative Party failed to win a majority government. The bad news is that they made gains in this election. I really don't understand how anyone can like and/or trust Harper and his party so I'm at a loss to understand this state of affairs. I go to bed tonight with the small consolation that it could have been worse.

Michael P

10-14-2008, 10:58 PM

I go to bed tonight with the small consolation that it could have been worse.

Yep, that's an election, all right.

howyadoin

10-14-2008, 11:14 PM

I really don't understand how anyone can like and/or trust Harper and his party...Apparently there are enough voting Bible-thumpers and retards in the country to give him a few extra seats this time.

Gary_B

10-14-2008, 11:16 PM

Yep, that's an election, all right.

Indeed.

Apparently there are enough voting Bible-thumpers and retards in the country to give him a few extra seats this time.

Not that the two are mutually exclusive.

Pól Rua

10-14-2008, 11:48 PM

If only such an idea had occurred to Nader.

Or you could implement preferential voting and ditch this first-past-the-post bullshit.

Gary_B

10-15-2008, 12:09 AM

Or you could implement preferential voting and ditch this first-past-the-post bullshit.

I would love to see proportional voting implemented. In fact I voted in favour of it in a referendum that was attached to our last provincial election. Fat lot of good that did.

Chris N

10-15-2008, 01:36 AM

Or you could implement preferential voting and ditch this first-past-the-post bullshit.

I don't see why. Once 9 friends voted on where to go on vacation.

2 said Bali. 2 said Hawaii. 2 said the Bahamas. And 3 said Alaska.

So they all went to Alaska.

Roquefort Raider

10-15-2008, 06:34 AM

I would love to see proportional voting implemented. In fact I voted in favour of it in a referendum that was attached to our last provincial election. Fat lot of good that did.

I'd love to see a Germany-inspired system implemented, with a certain number of seats distributed according to popular votes.

I find it irritating that the Bloc gets 10% of the popular vote and 50 seats, while the NDP gets 18% of the vote and a meager 37 seats. (Not to mention the Greens, who with 7% of the vote get sweet nothin'). There must be a way to make the popular choice count a little more, otherwise we may always be trapped by strategic voting.

Lone Ranger

10-15-2008, 08:48 AM

Apparently there are enough voting Bible-thumpers and retards in the country to give him a few extra seats this time.

Damn, I wish they made you the 23rd talking head on CBC.

I hope the Liberals change leadership soon.

My riding flipped from NDP to Liberal (Peggy Nash in, Gerrard Kennedy out), but Kennedy should really be shooting himself in the foot for throwing his support behind Dion at the last convention.

Did anyone see the bit on 22 minutes with Dion playing street hockey? Kat and I were pissing ourselves. He seems like a nice guy, but the Liberals could do soooo much better with a half decent leader.

I actually don't mind our systen - it's not perfect, but it worked fairly well until the Bloc came around. Now, we've got too much regional split and a huge urban/rural divide.

btw - any news on Harper insistuting fixed election dates like he promised long before he called this completely unnecessary election?

howyadoin

10-15-2008, 09:26 AM

Here's a question: is it legal to be campaigning on election day? I always thought that was a no-no, but the Greens were out in force all over town yesterday with banners and stuff.

Gary_B

10-15-2008, 09:32 AM

I'm not happy with the outcome of this election. All we can look forward to is more arrogant governing from Harper, more muzzling of his MPs, further depletion of what's left of the surplus he inherited, more cuts to social and cultural programs and more tax breaks to giant corporate forces. We handed him a re-elections with the lowest voter turnout in our history as a nation - 59.1% (http:/http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/10/15/voter-turnout.html/).

Roquefort Raider

10-15-2008, 09:55 AM

Still, there are a few silver linings. With the very disappointing results they got, the Liberals will have to get back in shape. Frankly speaking, I'm not sure all the rot has been scraped away after last time... I want to see Liberals who aren't Trudeau's and Chrétien's heirs in charge. Stéphane Dion could be the nicest guy in the world, he's still too tightly associated with the pre-Paul Martin Liberal party and its sponsorship scandal.

Then the conservatives don't have a majority, so they'll have to tread lightly. Nobody will want to go back in election soon, but that's still an incentive not to turn all Reform on us.

Lone Ranger

10-15-2008, 01:49 PM

Here's a question: is it legal to be campaigning on election day? I always thought that was a no-no, but the Greens were out in force all over town yesterday with banners and stuff.

It may have been seen as impolite at one point, but there's nothing in the legislation about it.

Riding my streetcar into work - I saw the NDP candidate stumping at one stop and the Liberal candiates about 4 stops down the line.

howyadoin

10-15-2008, 01:57 PM

It may have been seen as impolite at one point, but there's nothing in the legislation about it.

Riding my streetcar into work - I saw the NDP candidate stumping at one stop and the Liberal candiates about 4 stops down the line.Fair enough. I was hoping it'd be reason enough to throw out yesterday's results.

Lone Ranger

10-15-2008, 02:02 PM

Fair enough. I was hoping it'd be reason enough to throw out yesterday's results.

I hear you.

Harper certainly doesn't have many fans in my riding (Parkdale-High Park). The breakdown was:

Liberals 43%
NDP 37 %
Conservative 12.4%
Green 7.5%

On a sidenote, our Marijuana Party Candidate managed to get 0.4% of the vote.

I saw him Monday afternoon riding his bike down my street pulling a wagon with sandwich board saying 'Vote Terry Parker'. He seemed like the happiest guy I've even scene.

Athena Bast

10-15-2008, 02:23 PM

btw - any news on Harper insistuting fixed election dates like he promised long before he called this completely unnecessary election?

I hope to Gawd that doesn't happen. I don't want our electoral system turned into the sideshow that takes place in the States.

I like the calling of an election and 5 weeks later it is over. If you can't your shit out in 5 weeks you don't deserve to be in office.

J. Robb

10-15-2008, 02:29 PM

I find it irritating that the Bloc gets 10% of the popular vote and 50 seats, while the NDP gets 18% of the vote and a meager 37 seats. (Not to mention the Greens, who with 7% of the vote get sweet nothin').
This always bothers me too, because it encourages regional parties like the BQ (and Reform used to be.) It's a terrible system.

I want to see Liberals who aren't Trudeau's and Chrétien's heirs in charge.
I have some bad news then- their next leader will be Justin Trudeau.

Roquefort Raider

10-15-2008, 02:35 PM

It may have been seen as impolite at one point, but there's nothing in the legislation about it.

Riding my streetcar into work - I saw the NDP candidate stumping at one stop and the Liberal candiates about 4 stops down the line.

What about the ban on political commentary on the CBC (or Radip-Canada, actually) during election day? Is it an internal rule of the corporation or does it have a legal basis?

Lone Ranger

10-15-2008, 02:43 PM

What about the ban on political commentary on the CBC (or Radip-Canada, actually) during election day? Is it an internal rule of the corporation or does it have a legal basis?

Ben, do you mean the blackout of election results?

That's in the Canada Elections Act, and has been upheld by the SCC recently.

If you mean other political commentary - I'm not sure I know what you mean. I was watching pre-results coverage on Newsworld and all the talking heads were making predictions etc...

Super Hero Guy

10-15-2008, 03:31 PM

Now I don't want to start any shit up, but

FUCK YOU BQ, NDP, GREEN, AND INDEPENDENT BASTARDS! FUCK YOU!

Kelman

10-15-2008, 04:04 PM

howyadoin

10-15-2008, 04:06 PM

A disgruntled Liberal supporter? I voted NDP this election (in the Vancouver Centre riding), but longtime Liberal Hedy Fry won the seat.Looks like our votes cancelled one another out, then.

I'm just glad Harper didn't get a majority!That much is true.

Paul McEnery

10-15-2008, 05:16 PM

Come 2009, I look forward to the exodus of Canadians to their excitingly liberal neighbour down south.

Like North Dakota. :evilsmile:

Kelman

10-15-2008, 05:48 PM

Come 2009, I look forward to the exodus of Canadians to their excitingly liberal neighbour down south.

Like North Dakota. :evilsmile:

And give up our social welfare programs and relaxed attitudes towards pot? Even with the Conservative minority government, we're still far more liberal than our friends south of the 49th parallel--and I do wish Mr. Obama well!

Ontir

10-15-2008, 06:49 PM

I would say that "Republican" and "Democrat" have almost no meaning at all. The actual definitions of "conservative" and "liberal" are still the same.

Actually, in American politics, all four are pretty pointless words right now. The Conservatives here behave increasingly like Fascists (and I mean that in the true sense of the word, not some sloganeering), while the Liberals are widely divided. Some have become pretty close to Conservative/Republican positions, while others have gone so far left they're positions and candidates are un-electable.

howyadoin

10-15-2008, 07:04 PM

Actually, in American politics, all four are pretty pointless words right now.Right, but American politics doesn't change how the terms are actually defined, which is what I was getting at.

Or to put it another way, America isn't the sum total of modern civilization.

Adam C

10-15-2008, 07:21 PM

Now I don't want to start any shit up, but

FUCK YOU BQ, NDP, GREEN, AND INDEPENDENT BASTARDS! FUCK YOU!

Coming out hurling insults at supporters of non-Liberal parties, yes that's certainly a way to not start shit up.

And while we're at it, how do your remarks apply to my riding where the Liberal candidate was distant third, or Saskatoon-Rosetown Biggar where the NDP candidate was going neck-and-neck with the Conservative candidate?

Sabrina_Fried

10-15-2008, 07:28 PM

Apparently there are enough voting Bible-thumpers and retards in the country to give him a few extra seats this time.

I'm betting this is the price certain ridings paid for their "strategic voting." Which as far as I can tell has never produced the results people expect it to.

Then again, I work not far from Bay Street, Centre of the Universe, Toronto. So every day I have to deal with people who consider the Conservatives not Right Wing enough!

btw - any news on Harper insistuting fixed election dates like he promised long before he called this completely unnecessary election?

Didn't he do that already in the last government? And then he said "screw you" to his own rule and called this election anyway because the opposition were blocking all the bills the Conservatives were trying to introduce that would not have been good news for Canadians. (See, the system works....kind of).

Sabrina

Adam C

10-15-2008, 07:34 PM

Didn't he do that already in the last government? And then he said "screw you" to his own rule and called this election anyway because the opposition were blocking all the bills the Conservatives were trying to introduce that would not have been good news for Canadians. (See, the system works....kind of).

The opposition was blocking bills? That's news to me. As far as I could tell Harper just made up a BS justification for violating his own rule so he could call an early election and try to claim a majority.

benday-dot

10-15-2008, 07:42 PM

A disgruntled Liberal supporter? I voted NDP this election (in the Vancouver Centre riding), but longtime Liberal Hedy Fry won the seat. I actually like the Liberal Party of Canada, but I have never been a fan of Stephane Dion--he's clearly quite smart, but he doesn't exude confidence or conviction. He's like the passive uncle in the family whom everybody exploits without shame.

It's the Liberal party's worst election performance since 1867, so it's clear that Dion should step down and the Liberals need to get to work to pick a new leader before their leadership review in Spring 2009. Michael Ignatieff probably can't wait for his shot, but I hope the Liberals take the time to pick a leader strong enough to challenge the Conservatives and maybe win back some seats lost (and in a few years, Justin Trudeau might make for a dynamic leader, once he gets more political experience).

I'm just glad Harper didn't get a majority!

Actually the worst showing by the Liberals occurred in 1984 when John Turner got thumped by Brian Mulroney. They were reduced to I think 40 seats. So this is hardly the worst shape they have been in. Still they are obviously disappointed.

Dion was undone by 3 things as far as I can see.

1) Dion is a very smart and capable man, but unfortunately a poor communicator. He is not a natural leader, and is highly deficient in the charisma department.

2) As excellent an idea as the carbon tax combined with income tax reductions may be (and I think it is the best idea to both reduce greenhouse gas emissions and promote consumer spending) it proved too complicated to sell. And had the misfortune to meet the ears of the voters during one of the worst economic downturns in memory.

3) Stephen Harper's negative and vicious campaign of character assassination seemed to have done enough damage in feeding those already nascent perceptions of Dion as a weak leader to hobble the Liberal leader in his own earnest presentation of a much more positive campaign.

Dion is probably doomed now as leader. He may go down as one of the best Prime Minister's we never had.

C-Cool

10-15-2008, 08:11 PM

3) Stephen Harper's negative and vicious campaign of character assassination seemed to have done enough damage in feeding those already nascent perceptions of Dion as a weak leader to hobble the Liberal leader in his own earnest presentation of a much more positive campaign.

Dion is probably doomed now as leader. He may go down as one of the best Prime Minister's we never had.

Man, that sounds horrible.

That reminds me of my high school student council election, where my brother (the only one who had effective ideas and commitment) lost to a negative campaign and too many candidates. This happened for 2 years, and the same person won.

Nothing was done. Period.

That negative campaign ideas also remind me of one of the U.S. presidential races I know... but that was in the tune of a Swift Boat...

Gary_B

10-15-2008, 08:53 PM

I hope to Gawd that doesn't happen. I don't want our electoral system turned into the sideshow that takes place in the States.

I like the calling of an election and 5 weeks later it is over. If you can't your shit out in 5 weeks you don't deserve to be in office.

I agree. It has really blown me away during the last two elections how much money and energy the cyclical US election process wastes getting ready for the next big show-down.

Now I don't want to start any shit up, but

FUCK YOU BQ, NDP, GREEN, AND INDEPENDENT BASTARDS! FUCK YOU!

Next time you don't want to stir shit up you could just SHUT THE FUCK UP WITH THE OVERSIMPLIFYING NONSENSE!

Right, but American politics doesn't change how the terms are actually defined, which is what I was getting at.

Or to put it another way, America isn't the sum total of modern civilization.

Marry me!

Didn't he do that already in the last government? And then he said "screw you" to his own rule and called this election anyway because the opposition were blocking all the bills the Conservatives were trying to introduce that would not have been good news for Canadians. (See, the system works....kind of).

Sabrina

The opposition was blocking bills? That's news to me. As far as I could tell Harper just made up a BS justification for violating his own rule so he could call an early election and try to claim a majority.

I agree with Adam. The evidence showed that the Conservatives were actually getting plenty of things approved and accomplished with the co-operation of the other parties. Harper just declared road-block outrage to justify spending millions and millions of dollars to justify an election now before the world economic situation really went down the shitter. He was confident that he could get re-elected now, maybe even gain a majority. He also knew his history and the last couple of times a Prime Minister had to face an election after a major economic downturn they got trashed and run out of town. Better now than later. The fact that he is smart and cagey doesn't make me despise him and his lifeless eyes any less.

Adam C

10-15-2008, 09:09 PM

The fact that he is smart and cagey doesn't make me despise him and his lifeless eyes any less.

Now, now. It's not the Harpetron's fault that he doesn't have a soul.

Super Hero Guy

10-15-2008, 11:10 PM

Next time you don't want to stir shit up you could just SHUT THE FUCK UP WITH THE OVERSIMPLIFYING NONSENSE!
.

You're right. In the interest of fairness

FUCK YOU LIBERALS! FUCK YOU CONSERVATIVES! FUCK YOUR MOTHER! FUCK HER STRAIGHT TO HELL!

howyadoin

10-15-2008, 11:15 PM

You're right. In the interest of fairness

FUCK YOU LIBERALS! FUCK YOU CONSERVATIVES! FUCK YOUR MOTHER! FUCK HER STRAIGHT TO HELL!See? Was that so hard?

Gary_B

10-15-2008, 11:39 PM

FUCK YOU CONSERVATIVES

Yay! Common ground!

Roquefort Raider

10-16-2008, 08:53 AM

Ben, do you mean the blackout of election results?

That's in the Canada Elections Act, and has been upheld by the SCC recently.

No, that I get... we don't want the results at one end of the country to influence the votes in the other, which makes a lot of sense.

I mean that listening to Radio-Canada in the morning, the usual commentators don't talk about politics on election day, and clearly indicated that they weren't allowed to. They just didn't make it clear whether it was a corporate position or a legal requirement.

Cheers!

- Ben

morna

10-16-2008, 09:58 AM

Roquefort Raider

10-16-2008, 10:07 AM

why TF would that make any difference when they are announcing the results before our polls have even closed.

I don't think the official results are released before all the polls are closed. Are you talking about exit polls? Those aren't official. They're like a survey.

Lone Ranger

10-16-2008, 12:28 PM

No, that I get... we don't want the results at one end of the country to influence the votes in the other, which makes a lot of sense.

I mean that listening to Radio-Canada in the morning, the usual commentators don't talk about politics on election day, and clearly indicated that they weren't allowed to. They just didn't make it clear whether it was a corporate position or a legal requirement.

Cheers!

- Ben

Hmmmm... that's interesting. That must be a corporate decision, as I don't recall there being anything like that in the Act. There's just crap about properly authenticating survey results etc... but nothing on opining in the media

why TF would that make any difference when they are announcing the results before our polls have even closed.

[/bitter westerner rant]

I don't think the official results are released before all the polls are closed. Are you talking about exit polls? Those aren't official. They're like a survey.

Going back to my 1992 Canadian Voting Behaviour class at McGill (which we called Canadian Voting Beaver - weren't we hilarious?), there's a concept called 'bandwagoning'. It's much what it sounds like: a propensity for people to vote for those already leading so that they are on the winning team, or somesuch nonsense.