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Sean Walsh
10-09-2008, 11:02 AM
So I happened upon the Wikipedia entry for Dr. Emil Hamilton and was shocked to learn that HE WAS RUIN?!?!

I read that story a few years ago and somehow completely forgot this. I now almost think I didn't read it, because that seems like a real memorable revelation.

Wiki's explanation kinda seemed to leave out the "why"; so why did Emil take on this alter ego and try to destroy both Superman and Pete Ross??

Mat001
10-09-2008, 11:15 AM
The explaination is that Emil had come to believe that Superman's connection to the sun, being his source of power, was going to damage the sun long term. His mind had fractured, though the potential was there way back in his earliest appearences. Anyway, Emil lost it and became Ruin in an effort to destroy Superman to save the Earth. Pete only got involved in the affair because he had just resigned as President of the US and was trying to work on his marriage to Lana. To protect his identity, Emil had used Pete as a scapegoat, making it look like he was Ruin.

4thHorseman
10-09-2008, 11:16 AM
God it's been a while since I read that story. I remember him saying Superman was sucking the sun dry which would make it run out of energy and thus end the world, and felt Superman a danger. I also believe it was because Superman "ruined his life" or something like that.

In other words, he went crazy.

WorstThingUS
10-09-2008, 12:33 PM
He can be redeemed since it was established his artificial hand drove him insane. I forget why. A virus I think when Superman was oddly enough fighting cyber criminals.

Sean Walsh
10-09-2008, 12:53 PM
He can be redeemed since it was established his artificial hand drove him insane. I forget why. A virus I think when Superman was oddly enough fighting cyber criminals.

Emil's robot arm was affected by the B-13 virus that remade Metropolis. I guess Brainiac made the poor ol' guy legit nuts...

Slaughter
10-09-2008, 01:39 PM
Emil has been crazy since his first appearance in the good ol' byrne era. He was a promising scientist who developed powerful force-fields. He had problems with Lex Luthor, who sabotaged him constantly to get the patent to himself. Hamilton then snaped and atacked Superman with his force-fields and some his gadgets. Emil is crazy from day one. He went though treatment, and spent the rest of the eighties and nineties as a Mr. Fixit who Supes went for help and gadgets. Great guy. However, after Steel returned to Metropolis somewhere near the 2000s, Hamilton aparently got jealous of him and disapeared. He then used another identity, until Supes found out it was him and he said it was his arm with B-13 tech that drove him bonkers.

He then kinda disappeared for some time, and return in Greg Rucka's run on Adventures, helping Lupe against Ruin. I liked Hamilton, great character. Was sad to see him go, though even that was conducted well by Rucka. The ending where Hamilton tried to make Supes kill him was a great use of continuity. Rucka's run was pretty much the best run of Superman since Byrne's. And frankly, I think his run is as good as Johns';

carabas
10-09-2008, 04:47 PM
The explaination is that Emil had come to believe that Superman's connection to the sun, being his source of power, was going to damage the sun long term.I think that he was just kidding when he said that. Scientist humour.
He said that Superman was slowly leaching off the sun's energy so it'd die a collosal number of years from now. But the time he mentioned was exact the time scientists estimate our sun will die from what constitutes natural causes for a star.

WorstThingUS
10-09-2008, 09:06 PM
Emil has been crazy since his first appearance in the good ol' byrne era. He was a promising scientist who developed powerful force-fields. He had problems with Lex Luthor, who sabotaged him constantly to get the patent to himself. Hamilton then snaped and atacked Superman with his force-fields and some his gadgets. Emil is crazy from day one. He went though treatment, and spent the rest of the eighties and nineties as a Mr. Fixit who Supes went for help and gadgets. Great guy. However, after Steel returned to Metropolis somewhere near the 2000s, Hamilton aparently got jealous of him and disapeared. He then used another identity, until Supes found out it was him and he said it was his arm with B-13 tech that drove him bonkers.

Like I said, this makes it possible for his insanity to be the result of the tech, so if anyone wants to redeem him they can.


He then kinda disappeared for some time, and return in Greg Rucka's run on Adventures, helping Lupe against Ruin. I liked Hamilton, great character. Was sad to see him go, though even that was conducted well by Rucka. The ending where Hamilton tried to make Supes kill him was a great use of continuity. Rucka's run was pretty much the best run of Superman since Byrne's. And frankly, I think his run is as good as Johns';

I was horribly disappointed in Rucka. Though his was easily the best Superman book at that time, that wasn't saying much.

Sean Whitmore
10-09-2008, 09:31 PM
Wiki's explanation kinda seemed to leave out the "why"; so why did Emil take on this alter ego and try to destroy both Superman and Pete Ross??

Because Rucka was writing the book.

*rimshot*

But seriously, he does have a bit of a history of taking morally grey characters and tipping them all the way into the black. At least with DC.


SEAN

Mat001
10-10-2008, 11:21 AM
Like I said, this makes it possible for his insanity to be the result of the tech, so if anyone wants to redeem him they can.


Or maybe he was just plain crazy. You know, people can go crazy without machines being responsible. Emil was crazy without a machine telling him what to do back when he debuted.

WorstThingUS
10-10-2008, 11:44 AM
Or maybe he was just plain crazy. You know, people can go crazy without machines being responsible. Emil was crazy without a machine telling him what to do back when he debuted.

Yes, but he wasn't dangerous (much less homicidal in that he did briefly kill John Henry Irons). Hence my use of the word "redeem" and not "cure."

Mat001
10-10-2008, 11:11 PM
Yes, but he wasn't dangerous (much less homicidal in that he did briefly kill John Henry Irons). Hence my use of the word "redeem" and not "cure."

He wasn't dangerous? Trying to kill someone is the very definition of dangerous. And why does he need to be redeemed?

rwe1138
10-11-2008, 01:41 PM
Personally, I loved Rucka's run.

WorstThingUS
10-11-2008, 03:46 PM
He wasn't dangerous? Trying to kill someone is the very definition of dangerous. And why does he need to be redeemed?

I don't recall him trying to kill people before the robot hand.

And I didn't say he "needed" to be redeemed only that he "could" be redeemed.

Mat001
10-12-2008, 12:01 AM
I don't recall him trying to kill people before the robot hand.

In his earliest appearences in Adventures Of Superman, Emil threatened to kill a girl in order to showcase is technology. You don't threaten people like that, with an actual weapon, if you don't intend to do it. When he became Ruin, he tried to kill people.


And I didn't say he "needed" to be redeemed only that he "could" be redeemed.

Could be doesn't mean that he will be, or has to be.

WorstThingUS
10-12-2008, 12:31 AM
damn dirty double post

WorstThingUS
10-12-2008, 11:13 AM
In his earliest appearences in Adventures Of Superman, Emil threatened to kill a girl in order to showcase is technology. You don't threaten people like that, with an actual weapon, if you don't intend to do it. When he became Ruin, he tried to kill people.

And there you have the difference between his "normal insanity" and his "possibly tech induced insanity." The difference between a threat to kill and the actually killing of John Henry Irons, who was only saved by the Ageis armor being nearby.



Could be doesn't mean that he will be, or has to be.

Much like my choice of using "redeem" rather than "cure" I used "could" because I know the difference between it and "will" or "has." Bachelors in English from New York University, thank you very much.

Bored at 3:00AM
10-12-2008, 09:47 PM
I didn't mind Prof Hamilton going bad because I always thought John Henry Irons made for a more interesting tech/scientific exposition-type guy than Hamilton did--although giant robot-armed Hamilton was fun.

I thought the Timm animated series did a better job in explaining Hamilton's turn to the darkside though.

Mat001
10-12-2008, 10:48 PM
A threat and the actual murder (albeit briefly) of John Henry Irons are two different things and indicate an entirely new level of disconnect.

Or that the guy is entirely dangerous and not dealing with a full deck.



No, "could" means "could" which is why I used "could" and not "will" or "has."

Yes, I know that. But even with the possibility, that doesn't mean it has to happen.


And there you have the difference between his "normal insanity" and his "possibly tech induced insanity." The difference between a threat to kill and the actually killing of John Henry Irons, who was only saved by the Ageis armor being nearby.

The fact of the manner is that Hamilton is not sane. He never was. His robotic hand wasn't a factor in his first mental breakdown. It was only B-13 technology which is no longer apart of his left arm.


Much like my choice of using "redeem" rather than "cure" I used "could" because I know the difference between it and "will" or "has." Bachelors in English from New York University, thank you very much.

In order for an insane man to be redeemed, he must first become sane. Which is another way of saying he has to be cured of his insanity.

dancj
10-13-2008, 05:15 AM
Yes, I know that. But even with the possibility, that doesn't mean it has to happen.
Now I know you're on a wind-up!

Mat001
10-13-2008, 11:19 AM
Now I know you're on a wind-up!

What does that mean?

WorstThingUS
10-13-2008, 07:20 PM
In order for an insane man to be redeemed, he must first become sane. Which is another way of saying he has to be cured of his insanity.

No, because Hamilton's "homicidal insanity" can said to have been caused by the B13 hand and now that B13 is gone, he's back to his "normal insanity." Unless you establish that his "homicidal insanity" was merely an extenstion of his "normal insanity" and not a separate thing then he can be "redeemed" without being "cured."

Mat001
10-13-2008, 11:01 PM
No, because Hamilton's "homicidal insanity" can said to have been caused by the B13 hand and now that B13 is gone, he's back to his "normal insanity." Unless you establish that his "homicidal insanity" was merely an extenstion of his "normal insanity" and not a separate thing then he can be "redeemed" without being "cured."

The point that you seem to be missing is that he was still homicidal as Ruin. Long after the B-13 influence was taken away. His arm wasn't the cause. He was just messed up in the head, just as he was before. And in case you forgot, he tried to kill Clark and was content to kill Pete and Lana in the process.

WorstThingUS
10-14-2008, 12:22 AM
The point that you seem to be missing is that he was still homicidal as Ruin. Long after the B-13 influence was taken away. His arm wasn't the cause. He was just messed up in the head, just as he was before. And in case you forgot, he tried to kill Clark and was content to kill Pete and Lana in the process.

No I get that, but I obviously didn't make clear is that you can still blame the arm if you'd like because his genuine attempts to kill still came post-arm addition. Nanites is the deus ex machina (or diablos ex machina) most in use these days. B13 nanites still in his brain carried out Brainiac's desire to destroy Superman. Simple fix should anyone want to restore Hamilton to Superman's mad scientist friend who builds him stuff.

carabas
10-14-2008, 02:13 AM
One thing though. The entire Ruin story doesn't even mention B13 or its nanites.

WorstThingUS
10-14-2008, 07:29 AM
One thing though. The entire Ruin story doesn't even mention B13 or its nanites.

No, but we never heard about an evil yellow being in the heart of the power battery before they needed to redeem Hal Jordan either. But given they're retconning away the Brainiacs we've seen for the last twenty years with "nanites" at least there's a precedent for it here.

Mat001
10-14-2008, 10:58 AM
No, but we never heard about an evil yellow being in the heart of the power battery before they needed to redeem Hal Jordan either. But given they're retconning away the Brainiacs we've seen for the last twenty years with "nanites" at least there's a precedent for it here.

1. Brainiac-13 still happened and hasn't been retconned away. He was from the future, whereas the Brainiac probes were from the present day and had nothing to do with B-13's existence or what happened to Emil.

2. Or more aptly put, Emil just went nuts and no one wants to use him anymore except as a villain.

Besides, the B-13 technology vanished when Brainiac-12 was destroyed in Superman #200 and when "Strange New Visitor" began, all B-13 technology was coming off of Metropolis and going away. Any nanites that would be in Emil would go with it.

WorstThingUS
10-14-2008, 11:58 AM
1. Brainiac-13 still happened and hasn't been retconned away. He was from the future, whereas the Brainiac probes were from the present day and had nothing to do with B-13's existence or what happened to Emil.

I didn't say B-13 was retconned away. B-13 was not the Brainiac of the last 20 years. That Brainiac has been (though poorly). Now they were just probes and people controlled by nanites and probably a clone.


2. Or more aptly put, Emil just went nuts and no one wants to use him anymore except as a villain.

Besides, the B-13 technology vanished when Brainiac-12 was destroyed in Superman #200 and when "Strange New Visitor" began, all B-13 technology was coming off of Metropolis and going away. Any nanites that would be in Emil would go with it.

Still an easy fix. The damage the nanites did to Emil stuck even after they were gone. If someone wants him back, it still easy to wash away his sins and the groundwork has been laid (some Kryptonian nanites should do the trick). Again, it's still got a lot more foundation than how they redeemed Hal with Parallax.

Bored at 3:00AM
10-14-2008, 08:12 PM
Still an easy fix. The damage the nanites did to Emil stuck even after they were gone. If someone wants him back, it still easy to wash away his sins and the groundwork has been laid (some Kryptonian nanites should do the trick). Again, it's still got a lot more foundation than how they redeemed Hal with Parallax.

But who wants him back? Last time I checked, there weren't a lot of Prof Hamilton fans begging for his return like there were with Hal Jordan.

Like I said, John Henry Irons is a more interesting character as Superman's science exposition guy. Bringing back Prof Hamilton would be redundant.

Mat001
10-14-2008, 11:16 PM
But who wants him back? Last time I checked, there weren't a lot of Prof Hamilton fans begging for his return like there were with Hal Jordan.

So far, neither Johns nor Robinson seems to be interested in Emil. Steel is returning to the Superman books over the next few months. Buisek went and brought Janet Klyburn out of moth balls with "3-2-1 Action". A writer has to want to bring back a particular character. Johns wanted Cat, Ron and Steve. Robinson wanted Krypto, Bibbo, the Guardian and Steel. Gates has these characters, plus Superwoman and whoever else. Hell, Emil only returned this last time because Rucka wanted him. Before that, no one except for Loeb, Kelly, Casey and Schultz wanted anything to do with him. And it didn't even last that long.

dancj
10-15-2008, 05:47 AM
What does that mean?

The discussion went:


Mat001: And why does he need to be redeemed?

WorstThingUS: I didn't say he "needed" to be redeemed only that he "could" be redeemed.

Mat001: Could be doesn't mean that he will be, or has to be.

WorstThingUS: Much like my choice of using "redeem" rather than "cure" I used "could" because I know the difference between it and "will" or "has." Bachelors in English from New York University, thank you very much.

Mat001: Yes, I know that. But even with the possibility, that doesn't mean it has to happen.
It just felt like you were just trying to wind up WorstThingUS by repeating yourself over and over while ignoring everything he said.




It just

WorstThingUS
10-15-2008, 07:13 AM
But who wants him back? Last time I checked, there weren't a lot of Prof Hamilton fans begging for his return like there were with Hal Jordan.

Like I said, John Henry Irons is a more interesting character as Superman's science exposition guy. Bringing back Prof Hamilton would be redundant.

Wasn't his isolation from Superman as a result of John Henry Irons actually part of the initial story? Though Irons hasn't really been used that way nearly as much as Emil was.

But I never expressed a preference, only that if any writer wanted to bring him back, the groundwork was there for an easy redemption.


The discussion went:


Mat001: And why does he need to be redeemed?

WorstThingUS: I didn't say he "needed" to be redeemed only that he "could" be redeemed.

Mat001: Could be doesn't mean that he will be, or has to be.

WorstThingUS: Much like my choice of using "redeem" rather than "cure" I used "could" because I know the difference between it and "will" or "has." Bachelors in English from New York University, thank you very much.

Mat001: Yes, I know that. But even with the possibility, that doesn't mean it has to happen.
It just felt like you were just trying to wind up WorstThingUS by repeating yourself over and over while ignoring everything he said.



Oh, he was. He always is, but I'm used it by now.

Mat001
10-15-2008, 11:07 AM
Wasn't his isolation from Superman as a result of John Henry Irons actually part of the initial story? Though Irons hasn't really been used that way nearly as much as Emil was.

No, it was due to the fact that the writers of the Superman books didn't want to use any of the cast created during the late 80's and throughout the 90's. Too many fans and critics were complaining about the large supporting cast. So Loeb and company kicked everyone to the curb within a year. They wanted Superman as he was in the 60's when only Lois, Perry and Jimmy were in the books and even then, the latter two weren't seen a whole lot. Pete and Lana, because of the Superboy connection, were retained. Only Emil and Turpin appeared beyond 2001 and only for a few issues.


But I never expressed a preference, only that if any writer wanted to bring him back, the groundwork was there for an easy redemption.

Sure seems that way when you bring it up.



The discussion went:

Mat001: And why does he need to be redeemed?

WorstThingUS: I didn't say he "needed" to be redeemed only that he "could" be redeemed.

Mat001: Could be doesn't mean that he will be, or has to be.

WorstThingUS: Much like my choice of using "redeem" rather than "cure" I used "could" because I know the difference between it and "will" or "has." Bachelors in English from New York University, thank you very much.

Mat001: Yes, I know that. But even with the possibility, that doesn't mean it has to happen.

It just felt like you were just trying to wind up WorstThingUS by repeating yourself over and over while ignoring everything he said.

No, I was just asking why he felt that Emil should be redeemed.

WorstThingUS
10-15-2008, 11:16 AM
No, I was just asking why he felt that Emil should be redeemed.

...even though I kept pointing out over and over how I never said "should" only "could" and that I know the difference between the two words.

Bored at 3:00AM
10-15-2008, 09:23 PM
...even though I kept pointing out over and over how I never said "should" only "could" and that I know the difference between the two words.

Alright, cut the snark NOW or you'll find your posts deleted before anybody gets a chance to read them. If you two can't discuss anything with condescension and put-downs, then you won't discuss anything at all on this board.

Thank you.

Mat001
10-15-2008, 11:46 PM
I'm not trying to be snarky or condescending. I'm just pointing out that it was simple. Emil went nuts. It had nothing to do with his arm, but everything to do with his mental processes. Something established long before he lost his arm back in 1994. And insane people can only be redeemed by being cured of their insanity.

dancj
10-20-2008, 05:29 AM
Damn - My post got deleted.

I don't think that's ever happened to me before :eek: