Toth vs. Kane

[benday-dot]

When Gil Kane shone the spotlight on Alex Toth in the pages of the first volume of Alter Ego it represented a sort of breakthrough in fan recognition of an artist who already had a solid reputation as a master of the form among his fellow artists, and other cognoscenti. Kane's critical appraisal of Alex Toth back in 1969 importantly helped push the artist's growing legend into a wider mainstream appreciation.

And Kane would on future occasions continue to extol the virtues of his colleague, ever pointing out what an important creative force Toth was to the art form.

However, as surly, prickly and mercurial as Toth could be, it surprised me to read that he was not at all complimentary to the very colleague who was so outspoken in the cause of promoting his own contributions to comics.

I know Kane was well known as holding liberal views, and Toth by contrast did not shy away from expressing some archly conservative positions (he was a pretty big fan of Rush Limbaugh), however surely there was more to it all than this.

What did Alex Toth dislike, or have against Gil Kane? Was it an artistic difference, or simply a personality clash?

[Sir Tim Drake]

Did Alex Toth like anybody? It seems like the only people he respected were deceased older artists like Mort Meskin.

[Jesse Hamm]

Toth wasn't as familiar with the current scene as he was with the Golden Age, so fewer new guys made it onto his radar. But he did respect a number of younger artists (Darwyn Cooke, Bosch Fawstin, Paul Grist, Mazzucchelli, Jordi Bernet, Steve Rude, Bruce Timm, etc.), and he was friendly and encouraging to countless others (Paul Pope, Dylan Williams, and myself included).

With Kane, it was a personality clash. Despite his respect for Toth's craftsmanhip, Kane has said disparaging and downright nasty things about Toth in print (notably in his Comics Journal interview in the '80s, and in a lettercol follow-up). I gather it was a lifelong, two-way enmity.

[Slam_Bradley]

Toth certainly comes off as being at least curmudgeonly, but knowledgeable and certainly very talented. A bit like Harlan Ellison...a young savant who aged without gaining needed social skills. I say this, not having known Toth, but that is the impression from his writing.

Another person who comes off possibly worse than Toth in his essays is C. C. Beck. Admire his work as I may, I can't read his essays any longer. The man came across as a total dick in his writing.

[Sir Tim Drake]

Toth wasn't as familiar with the current scene as he was with the Golden Age, so fewer new guys made it onto his radar. But he did respect a number of younger artists (Darwyn Cooke, Bosch Fawstin, Paul Grist, Mazzucchelli, Jordi Bernet, Steve Rude, Bruce Timm, etc.), and he was friendly and encouraging to countless others (Paul Pope, Dylan Williams, and myself included).

I apologize if my offhanded comment sounded disparaging to Toth. I have little personal knowledge of the man.

[MDG]

I apologize if my offhanded comment sounded disparaging to Toth. I have little personal knowledge of the man.
I have no firsthand knowledge, but have heard/read a lot of stories about his... let's say brusque... manner. And his criticism could be sharp--ever see his notes to Steve Rude about a Jonny Quest story?

On the other hand, he was just as hard on himself, and other times his notes and letters are very warm and friendly.

That being said, I think that Toth is probably one of the five top storytellers ever to work in comics, and a master of design. (And one of the few artists who could do an exciting car chase in comics)

[Slam_Bradley]

I have no firsthand knowledge, but have heard/read a lot of stories about his... let's say brusque... manner. And his criticism could be sharp--ever see his notes to Steve Rude about a Jonny Quest story?

On the other hand, he was just as hard on himself, and other times his notes and letters are very warm and friendly.

That being said, I think that Toth is probably one of the five top storytellers ever to work in comics, and a master of design. (And one of the few artists who could do an exciting car chase in comics)


No question he was a brilliant storyteller. Roy Thomas tells a tale of his first attempt to work with Toth on a Marvel story. Toth apparently didn't understand the Marvel method and was really put out at the "script" he received. They never did work together.

[Lone Ranger]

I recall one of those "Before I forget" bits he did for Alter Ego where he seemed to list every artist he admired (it seemed like it was every artist who worked pre-1960). I wonder if Kane made that list.

[MartinRedmond]

There was nothing wrong with his critique to Steve Rude.

[benday-dot]

I like Slam's comment about Toth being a little like a savant, who failed to master any of the social graces, or the politics of relationships.

I gather something, which always remained rather private and mysterious, happened with Toth's family life when he still very young. This may have "bred in the bone" certain lifelong insecurities, and encouraged the development of Toth's famously volatile temperament and unadulterated voice in affairs of friendship and business.

It seems; however, as cold and alienating he might have appeared to some, he could just as easily come across as a man of great warmth and generosity. He was a great correspondent (his famous postcards with their fantastic doodles were received by many an admirer) and lover of literature. I think its true he had a natural affinity for the pioneers (Caniff, Sickles, Meskin, Kubert and others); however he also spoke highly of some of the newer artists (many of whom have been mentioned here) whom he felt had a good grasp of sequential storytelling.

I don't think he was much of a fan of Kirby, for whatever reason. Maybe he didn't get or appreciate Kirby's wholehearted embrace of the grandiose gesture on the page or the gloriously unsubtle approach the latter took to his own brand of storytelling.

I also gather Toth was not a fan of violent display in comics. Perhaps, Kane, who did not shy away from such graphic depictions, where he felt they were in effective service of his stories, caused Toth to form less than gracious opinions of his peer.

[Scott Shaw!]

Through my work in animation, I got to know both Gil Kane and Alex Toth. Not that we became close friends, but I had many separate conversations with both men.

One thing is for certain; both men truly loved comics and loved to talk about the cartoonists they admired. Gil especially loved expounding on his comic book theories, and I relished the many times he'd plant himself next to my desk at Marvel Productions, telling me all about working with the young Mike Sekowsky, or of his admiration for Ogden Whitney or how Jack Kirby's storytelling for Marvel in the mid-1960s made " quantum leaps forward with nearly every issue of FANTASTIC FOUR and THOR"...all peppered with a "my boy" every once in a while.

I dunno when or why Gil and Alex's friendship fell apart, but like most of Alex's relationships, it was probably doomed. Sooner or later, Alex would find something to dislike about almost everyone he knew. (It certainly happened to me while Alex and I were at Hanna-Barbera, although not in a public way.) But I know that Gil and another old and opinionated friend, Burne Hogarth, also dissolved their friendship over art theory, so it may have been mutual.

But a good friend of mine, a transplanted Aussie cartoonist who became very close to Alex when he was in Australia supervising the early episodes of SUPER FRIENDS -- and of course, eventually fell out of favor with Alex within a few years -- went to visit Alex as he lay dying in a Burbank rest home, determined to see his hero one last time, no matter how Alex would reject him. And my friend tells me that Alex was, surprisingly, delighted to see him. My friend was stunned by Alex's upbeat attitude, and even moreso when Alex confided to him that he'd just learned that he'd been bipolar for decades, and was now, at the end of his life, finally on medication that leveled out his highs and lows and was finally at peace with his family and friends.

So that might explain a LOT about Alex's notorious behavior over the years.

Aloha,

Scott!

[benday-dot]

Through my work in animation, I got to know both Gil Kane and Alex Toth. Not that we became close friends, but I had many separate conversations with both men.

One thing is for certain; both men truly loved comics and loved to talk about the cartoonists they admired. Gil especially loved expounding on his comic book theories, and I relished the many times he'd plant himself next to my desk at Marvel Productions, telling me all about working with the young Mike Sekowsky, or of his admiration for Ogden Whitney or how Jack Kirby's storytelling for Marvel in the mid-1960s made " quantum leaps forward with nearly every issue of FANTASTIC FOUR and THOR"...all peppered with a "my boy" every once in a while.

I dunno when or why Gil and Alex's friendship fell apart, but like most of Alex's relationships, it was probably doomed. Sooner or later, Alex would find something to dislike about almost everyone he knew. (It certainly happened to me while Alex and I were at Hanna-Barbera, although not in a public way.) But I know that Gil and another old and opinionated friend, Burne Hogarth, also dissolved their friendship over art theory, so it may have been mutual.

But a good friend of mine, a transplanted Aussie cartoonist who became very close to Alex when he was in Australia supervising the early episodes of SUPER FRIENDS -- and of course, eventually fell out of favor with Alex within a few years -- went to visit Alex as he lay dying in a Burbank rest home, determined to see his hero one last time, no matter how Alex would reject him. And my friend tells me that Alex was, surprisingly, delighted to see him. My friend was stunned by Alex's upbeat attitude, and even moreso when Alex confided to him that he'd just learned that he'd been bipolar for decades, and was now, at the end of his life, finally on medication that leveled out his highs and lows and was finally at peace with his family and friends.

So that might explain a LOT about Alex's notorious behavior over the years.

Aloha,

Scott!

Those are valuable insights Scott!. Thanks for sharing. I had no idea about Toth being bipolar. I just sort of suspected he knew some form of great and personal hurt when he was still very young, and just carried it insecurely with him throughout his years.

[Jamie]

Those are valuable insights Scott!. Thanks for sharing. I had no idea about Toth being bipolar. I just sort of suspected he knew some form of great and personal hurt when he was still very young, and just carried it insecurely with him throughout his years.

While not bipolar myself, I am being treated for depression (and have been for years), and I can tell you that without proper treatment depression can definitely lend itself to the sort of things outlined above. Depression isn't necessarily crying yourself to sleep at night -- it's a blanket that covers your entire point of view, blocking out the positive and emphasizing every negative emotion: anger, resentment, malaise and dissatisfaction, as well as they sadness you'd expect. It makes you incredibly hard on yourself, and also on the people around you.

I would imagine that being bipolar would in some ways make this worse, as the manic phases imbue you with a false sense of energy and drive -- so when the valleys come, they seem even deeper compared to the peaks.

[dan bailey]

A very perceptive post, Jamie. I'm in much the same boat, though with a thankfully rather mild tendency toward bipolar symptoms (my mother, in contrast, was pretty much a textbook case), & I can well imagine the impact that a full-blown case of the disorder might've had on Toth's outlook & behavior toward others.

[Gothos]

Toth certainly comes off as being at least curmudgeonly, but knowledgeable and certainly very talented. A bit like Harlan Ellison...a young savant who aged without gaining needed social skills. I say this, not having known Toth, but that is the impression from his writing.

Another person who comes off possibly worse than Toth in his essays is C. C. Beck. Admire his work as I may, I can't read his essays any longer. The man came across as a total dick in his writing.

Amen to your comment about Beck. Toth may have been rigid about what he considered good comics but Beck makes him look like the proverbial pussycat. Beck never seemed to like anything that wasn't like his own work. I believe it was in some JOURNAL essay that he actually tried to prove that Barry Smith's art was no good by "re-drawing" it in his own style to show how "bad" it was. Of course, that meant taking all the design elements out of Smith's artwork, all to self-aggrandize Beck's artistic theories...

[Gothos]

Toth wasn't as familiar with the current scene as he was with the Golden Age, so fewer new guys made it onto his radar. But he did respect a number of younger artists (Darwyn Cooke, Bosch Fawstin, Paul Grist, Mazzucchelli, Jordi Bernet, Steve Rude, Bruce Timm, etc.), and he was friendly and encouraging to countless others (Paul Pope, Dylan Williams, and myself included).

With Kane, it was a personality clash. Despite his respect for Toth's craftsmanhip, Kane has said disparaging and downright nasty things about Toth in print (notably in his Comics Journal interview in the '80s, and in a lettercol follow-up). I gather it was a lifelong, two-way enmity.

Yeah, I've sometimes seen Kane say some very snide or condescending things, as well, though at times I've also seen the reaction to them go off the charts.

Case in point: I attended an 80s Dallas con where Gary Groth brought that "comics masters" class with Kurtzman, Kane and Hogarth. I listened to one Kane panel where some audience-member asked Kane about the artists I liked, and Kane said something frivolous like, "Oh, I consider them all beneath me" or somesuch. I for one took it as a joke.

Burne Hogarth didn't. Later I was standing outside the panel-room chatting with Groth (with whom I was noddingly friendly back then), and Hogarth rudely rushes up, interrupts my conversation with Groth and complains that Kane personally slighted him in that panel-discussion.

On the surface it looked to me like Hogarth went ballistic for no reason, but I've certainly seen Kane say derogatory things in print, so maybe Hogarth knew whereof he spoke after all.

Nice to talk to you again, Jesse.

Gene Phillips

[Scott Shaw!]

Beck never seemed to like anything that wasn't like his own work.

Not true. In fact, at an early San Diego Comic-Con, C. C. not only knew my cartooning work, he even complimented me on it!

Aloha,

Scott!

[Gothos]

Not true. In fact, at an early San Diego Comic-Con, C. C. not only knew my cartooning work, he even complimented me on it!

Aloha,

Scott!

Scott, your work may not precisely resemble Beck's in many respects, but I'm betting one thing he liked was that you use a "clear-line" approach that automatically eschews a lot of the ornate decorativeness that Beck found so distasteful in Barry Smith.

Of course, arguing about taste is about as productive as arguing about the weather.

[MDG]

Scott, your work may not precisely resemble Beck's in many respects, but I'm betting one thing he liked was that you use a "clear-line" approach that automatically eschews a lot of the ornate decorativeness that Beck found so distasteful in Barry Smith.
IIRC, in the article by Beck in INSIDE COMICS, he didn't like Smith's art because they struck Beck as a group of separate drawings that didn't relate to each other to tell a story.

[benday-dot]

IIRC, in the article by Beck in INSIDE COMICS, he didn't like Smith's art because they struck Beck as a group of separate drawings that didn't relate to each other to tell a story.

Well, I am a fan of Beck, but I certainly think he is wrong about Smith on this count. Barry Smith IMO was an exemplary story teller, with a superb grasp of sequential story flow. He was to use the cliche, a very "cinematic" artist. Yes, he has a reputation for an ornate, finely detailed pre-Raphaelite influenced work, but it is often assumed by those who are not too familiar with his work that this automatically meant his devotion to such intricacies precluded his ability to do a proper comic book story. I'd argue this is simply not true. If my scanner wasn't broken I'd call up some examples from my Conan collection.