I am outraged over Batman RIP! [Archive] - Comic Book Resources Forums

Lester C.

10-03-2008, 05:58 AM

Here is the thing about comics. Everything changes…until it changes back. It's a slide of hand that we are all aware of and like all magic tricks we fall for it because it's entertaining and we want to. Like all good magic we don't even look for the trick for fear of finding it and ruining the show. I’m sure it has something to do with the readership getting older and no new readers coming on board but I’m tried to think it all out. Needless to say Bruce Wayne was Batman in 1940 and he’s going to be Batman in 2010. He will also be back to what we consider normal minus whatever going on with him mentally.

If you don’t believe me look at every big bat even that’s taken place from Knightfall to Wargames. (Sorry I’m a bit out of date but I do know that all the changes that was going to change Batman forever in Wargames was undone in Infinite Crisis.

mr. december

10-03-2008, 02:20 PM

Grant Morrison is a hack?:confused: The stupidity never stops. He is one of the best writers comic books have seen in the last 20 years. People with names of C-list porno stars will probably not get this. Go do a Calender. A "Hack" couldnt write All-star superman and a hack couldnt write Batman R.I.P.-Frank Miller allstar Godamn batman is SHITE-shock value and nothing else, no story. Go back to reading Bruce Jones and Bendis.

Jesus. C'mon. Morrison has Batman wearing a ****ing clown suit thinking he's a Goddamn alien or something. It's just stupid. Bat-Mite? Am I supposed to read this with a straight face? Laugh-out-loud ridiculous plots like the one involving the original Zur-En-Arrh were left out of continuity for a reason. Yeah, I know. Hallucinations, blah Goddamn blah. It's still stupid.

And Morrison himself is a complete ass. He's full of himself. He claims to have met "inter-dimensional creatures" and other shit so stupid it makes my head hurt. Yeah, pound enough LSD and I'd probably see inter-dimensional creatures, too. (Side note: Here you can watch him basically take credit for Warren Ellis' brilliant Transmetropolitan and otherwise act like a douche bag. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idlSBQ62zUc&feature=related)

But ooh, Grant Morrison can write a really really complicated story so he must be the bestest writer EVAR. Christ. How are your seats on the bandwagon?

Anyone can make the damsel the villain or make controversial changes to a character's history. RIP is about a group of people out to utterly destroy the protagonist of the story... is that right? Yeah, that describes a couple hundred story arcs spanning multiple universes and characters. Don't treat this trash like it's something new.

As for this perception of Frank Miller's work as "all shock and no substance..." Yeah... BATMAN: RIP? Are you ****ing kidding me? If you don't see the intended shock value in Batman: RIP, take a closer look. AT THE TITLE.

"Go do a Calender." Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice.

gwor

10-03-2008, 02:30 PM

I think Morrisson's quality track record (Animal Man, JLA, and New X-men are all excellent runs) should encourage folk to give him the benefit of doubt.

By the way, it's just comics, dude.

mr. december

10-03-2008, 02:43 PM

I think Morrisson's quality track record (Animal Man, JLA, and New X-men are all excellent runs) should encourage folk to give him the benefit of doubt.

By the way, it's just comics, dude.

And you could say the same thing about Frank Miller -- DKR, Year One, etc.

Yeah, you're right, it's just comics. I just get fired up when someone calls me a "******* ****," that's all.

Sean Walsh

10-03-2008, 06:50 PM

Well as a tyrant moderator, your wrath should be more crippling than just an angry post.

DESTROY THEM WITH YOUR POWER, BRIAN!!!!!! :tongue:

Captain Jim

10-03-2008, 07:03 PM

Totally outraged.

Yep.

Totally.

-Brian

Come on, Brian. What kind of post is this? At least explain what you're upset about.

Damiean Dark

10-03-2008, 07:51 PM

vickvega

10-03-2008, 08:04 PM

:biggrin: :eek: :confused: :: :rolleyes:

BadRobot22

10-04-2008, 07:32 AM

You're not alone.

Grant Morrison is a hack. Frank Miller has Batman say a few curse words and get his bone on with Black Canary, and it's the end of world.

Morrison turns the Waynes into junkies, alcoholics and swingers (possibly, anyway. I gave up on this trash.), and he's a genius.

Do you even know what hack means? Even if you dislike the story (a lot of people like it, and it's not because of hype -- generally, if I dislike an even very well received comic, I'll admit it) it's definitely not hack writing. Hack must be the writers equivalent of "over-rated" or "pretentious"... A criticism that's become so over-used that it's never used for its actual meaning anymore.

Chiroptera

10-04-2008, 08:13 AM

By Lucifer's Beard!
Why...?
Why did anybody have to take a slightly amusing joke topic seriously and turn it into an actual debate? We've got three other RIP threads this could go into but instead the innocent goof-ball thread has to be dragged down?

Poor little goof-ball thread...

the-wolf

10-04-2008, 12:16 PM

Why kid oursleves when was there last a really good batman story?.

This is what happens when a comic book company relies to heavily on one or two characters batman always has to be in the mix be it saving the world with the Justice League or fighting in Gotham the rest of DC really is only a background for Batman and Superman the weight of having them always at the forefront results in weaker stories.

I couldn't agree more. I think the last good Batman story was No Man's Land.

Batman is totally over-exposed in much the same way as Wolverine and Spider-man are for Marvel. But, if it didn't increase the sales they wouldn't do it.

I think the larger problem for Batman is simply too much baggage. I thought I had a lot of catching up to do with the character when I started in '89. I can't imagine a new reader coming on board and sorting through 4 Robins, 2 Batwomans, the Huntress, Spoiler, Azrael, 16 major catastrophes to Gotham, broken backs, villains back from the dead, broken backs, half-sisters of love interests, 20-odd love interests, repeated resignations from the butler, Gordon retiring and then not, etc., etc., etc. You know, the definitive, iconic version of the character that DiDio was talking about a while ago.

And now we're messing with the Waynes. Can't we just leave them alone? Even if, in the end, nothing is changed? Because let's face it; any major changes will eventually be ret-conned by another writer or editorial anyways. After all, this is DC. Which is why things like this just shouldn't be allowed to be altered in the first place.

Wether or not you like the story is a matter of taste. Nothing else. We're all different. I have to agree, however, that such a tactic regarding the Waynes, along with the whole "R.I.P." premise is shock-value at it's most obvious.

Whatever happened to simple 1-4 issue self-contained story arcs? :mad: :frown: :frown: :frown:

GRANT!

10-04-2008, 12:21 PM

This thread is genius.

GRANT!

10-04-2008, 12:24 PM

Come on, Brian. What kind of post is this? At least explain what you're upset about.

SPECIFIC POINTS AND EXAMPLES CAN NOT DESCRIBE HIS OUTRAGE!

Gilda Dent

10-04-2008, 12:34 PM

Totally outraged.

Yep.

Totally.

-Brian

Not me.

I'm only partly outraged. 16% outraged. I'm 6% enraged, 17% impressed, 28% indifferent, and 32% craving Chinese food. And 1% wistful. Either wistful or melancholy. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference, especially when I'm this hungry.

jelly [blank] of doom

10-04-2008, 01:54 PM

This thread is full of win.

But, people complaining about writers taking different directions in the way they tell stories? Yeah that is total BS. Creativity is such a horrible thing. :P I forgot who said it in the thread, but yes, at the end of the day Batman will be Bruce Wayne. His parents will be the catalyst that made him Batman. Joker will still be Joker. And Mr. Pennyworth will always be around.

Why? This is the character we all love, including Mr. Morrison (I assume. I know, assumption makes an ass out of me blah blah). I don't think he would write Bats if he didn't love the core center of this character. Now, loving the core doesn't mean you can't change the surface of things. Which is fine. Which is what we need. Without variety everything turns into a weird grey mush. Ew. Mush.

But anyway, this is good if you don't like it. It's good if you state why. It's controversy. And let's face it, as long as fan boys cry either GENIUS or FOUL. As long as their crying, the goal has been achieved.

...Also, I been up since 3 am CT, so this may be all over the place. :P

dreyga2000

10-04-2008, 02:29 PM

I can't imagine a new reader coming on board and sorting through 4 Robins, 2 Batwomans, the Huntress, Spoiler, Azrael, 16 major catastrophes to Gotham, broken backs, villains back from the dead, broken backs, half-sisters of love interests, 20-odd love interests, repeated resignations from the butler, Gordon retiring and then not, etc., etc., etc. You know, the definitive, iconic version of the character that DiDio was talking about a while ago.

I can't really agree with that I started reading comics in 2006...I sorted through Batman's history on wikipedia one class period at the library I was supposed to be doing a project then picked some trades at that library (Hush vol. 2, Long Halloween).. I doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out... With every new story they dedicated a monologue to a brief history of the character... It's mind-boggiling how anyone could have trouble...

DarKye

10-04-2008, 07:08 PM

I am outraged over the outrage.

kalika

10-04-2008, 07:17 PM

I can't imagine a new reader coming on board and sorting through 4 Robins, 2 Batwomans, the Huntress, Spoiler, Azrael, 16 major catastrophes to Gotham, broken backs, villains back from the dead, broken backs, half-sisters of love interests, 20-odd love interests, repeated resignations from the butler, Gordon retiring and then not, etc., etc., etc. You know, the definitive, iconic version of the character that DiDio was talking about a while ago.

This was a nice summary. I'll admit, when I first got into Batman, mid-nineties, it took me a minute, but eventually I got the hang of pre-crisis/post-crisis origins and that was that. I didn't even have wikipedia or message boards back then!

Getting back into Batman these last couples months was a little more difficult. I didn't know about 16 major catastrophes to Gotham!?! what are we talking about...I just knew about the earthquake and an epidemic. Alfred resigned? Only after Knightsquest, i thought. More? Oh gods, help!

And now we're messing with the Waynes. Can't we just leave them alone?

LEAVE THE WAYNES ALONE!!!!!!!!! hahaha...

the-wolf

10-04-2008, 07:27 PM

I can't really agree with that I started reading comics in 2006...I sorted through Batman's history on wikipedia one class period at the library I was supposed to be doing a project then picked some trades at that library (Hush vol. 2, Long Halloween).. I doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out... With every new story they dedicated a monologue to a brief history of the character... It's mind-boggiling how anyone could have trouble...

Yes. However, there's a difference between reading a tight summary and going back and finding, reading and truly understanding all of the underlying resaons, circumstances and nuances involved.

the-wolf

10-04-2008, 07:28 PM

This was a nice summary. I'll admit, when I first got into Batman, mid-nineties, it took me a minute, but eventually I got the hang of pre-crisis/post-crisis origins and that was that. I didn't even have wikipedia or message boards back then!

Getting back into Batman these last couples months was a little more difficult. I didn't know about 16 major catastrophes to Gotham!?! what are we talking about...I just knew about the earthquake and an epidemic. Alfred resigned? Only after Knightsquest, i thought. More? Oh gods, help!

LEAVE THE WAYNES ALONE!!!!!!!!! hahaha...

There's a few stories where Alfred has left or threatened to, but there's also some hyperbole in my post as well.

mr. december

10-05-2008, 02:26 AM

of doom;7670755']This thread is full of win.

But, people complaining about writers taking different directions in the way they tell stories? Yeah that is total BS. Creativity is such a horrible thing. :P I forgot who said it in the thread, but yes, at the end of the day Batman will be Bruce Wayne. His parents will be the catalyst that made him Batman. Joker will still be Joker. And Mr. Pennyworth will always be around.

Why? This is the character we all love, including Mr. Morrison (I assume. I know, assumption makes an ass out of me blah blah). I don't think he would write Bats if he didn't love the core center of this character. Now, loving the core doesn't mean you can't change the surface of things. Which is fine. Which is what we need. Without variety everything turns into a weird grey mush. Ew. Mush.

But anyway, this is good if you don't like it. It's good if you state why. It's controversy. And let's face it, as long as fan boys cry either GENIUS or FOUL. As long as their crying, the goal has been achieved.

...Also, I been up since 3 am CT, so this may be all over the place. :P

I agree to an extent. Creativity is essential in this medium, given the medium's tendency to basically repeat itself over and over again. But a line needs to be drawn between creativity and bad writing. The fact that a comic is just different doesn't mean it shouldn't be subject to criticism.

So we don't have to look at something like RIP and say, "Well, it's just a different direction, that's all." It could also just be bad. It could even be uncreative, and just look different. Like I said earlier... RIP is about a group of villains out to completely destroy the hero. That's not a new direction.

Like you were saying in your post, at the end of the day, Bruce Wayne will be Batman. Just like Steve Rogers will be Cap, just like Superman ditched the blue and white costume, etc, etc, etc. Most of these changes end up being either largely cosmetic, or, in retrospect, just bad ideas. And they're eventually retconned with ridiculous reasons. "Oh, uh, Jason Todd is back because Superboy punched reality." What the hell?

IMO, changes to the surface can disturb the core. You can make crazy changes if you want, but you end up painting a big red bullseye on it for an editor or another writer to retcon. The character ends up being cheapened, and the changes end up as bad memories. And that's not to say I don't want any changes -- I like that, for example, Jason got killed. I thought it gave Batman more depth and complexity. It's the stupid, lazily justified, shock-value resurrection that doesn't sit well.

I'm all for variety. I like that we have Amazing Spiderman, and something like, say, Spiderman: Tangled Web or whatever it was called. I like that we have Batman: Black and White and All Star Batman. Those books are about beloved (and lucrative) characters taken in new directions. And again, the fact that these books (including Morrison's Batman) are movements in new directions doesn't mean they can't suck.

Ok, so without variety, everything turns into a weird grey mush. I agree. But without standards, criticism, and sincere innovation, everything turns into a ridiculous free for all where quality doesn't matter.

Astonishing X-Fan

10-05-2008, 03:48 AM

Why kid oursleves when was there last a really good batman story?.

Nearly every month in Detective.

Sizzle

10-05-2008, 08:04 AM

Jetpack Comics

10-05-2008, 08:54 AM

Will.S

10-05-2008, 12:38 PM

I think Brian is joking or is being extremely sarcastic but.....I could be wrong.

mr. december

10-05-2008, 01:00 PM

To be fair, you should wait until the story is completed.

You should of picked up right away the whole dirtying the Wayne's was a mind game. Batman dressing up and talking ot Bat-Mite is all part of his mind splintering. Of coarse he's not really talking to Bat-Mite.

Morrison is hit or miss with me, while I never find anything of his bad, sometimes it just does not do anything for me.

The worst thing he has done is Damien. DIE DIE DIE!

Yeah, I know all of that. DC wouldn't let the Waynes turn into drunken perverts. And of course the clown suit and Bat-Mite are part of him going crazy... to me, tha just doesn't make it better. The Waynes thing, fine. But crazy or not, Batman is dressing like a circus clown and talking to Bat-Mite.

Damien. Another bad idea that everyone seems to hate. And eventually it'll get changed or retconned.

Vidocq

10-05-2008, 01:03 PM

Seriously, there's no reason for you to assume I'm stupid because I don't like what you like.

You are wasting your time. Morrizombies will keep kissing their own asses and calling anyone who dosen't get it an idiot just for having taste. This is not to say that everyone who reads Morrison is an zombie, just the ones who are stupid enough to believe that reading that makes them special. Honestly is not that multilayered, Is Batman RIP not Crime and Punishment. But zombies like any other type of Fanboys are a lost cause.

Nearly every month in Detective.

QFT

Jeez. How dare you talk crap about RIP.
Next thing you know, you'll be complaining about FINAL CRISIS.
You know, that story where the gods are...doing something, and there's a sumo wrestler...and characters who are big names and have been around for years die in one page...and everyone is suddenly talking about the end of the world but they haven't really gone into that very much...
wait.
Final Crisis is horrible too.

QFT

I think Brian is joking or is being extremely sarcastic but.....I could be wrong.

Yeah he was Joking reacting to a previous thread that said ''No Outrage over RIP''?

Truth is I hate RIP. It dissapointed me in every turn. We were promised an insightful psychological view of the Dark Knight, we were left with monthy 22 pages of pop psyhology with the depth of an Horoscope from a tablod.

Still Morrison (Like Miller) is No hack. He wrote All Star Superman for God's sake but he is not (as many of hisfanboys seem to believe) the next Leo Tolstoy, he is not even the next Alan Moore.

Chiroptera

10-05-2008, 01:11 PM

Truth is I hate RIP. It dissapointed me in every turn. We were promised an insightful psychological view of the Dark Knight, we were left with monthy 22 pages of pop psyhology with the depth of an Horoscope from a tablod.

Thank you. It's nice to know I'm not the only one that can notice this. I come from a family of psychologists, I grew up around psychological study and have now taken many psych courses of my own.

The reason I don't like Morrizon being the writer on Batman is his obsession with trying to make it psychological. It's NOT, it's not real psychology, it's not a real look into the mind of Batman. It's all "pop-psychology" as you called it, or TV psychology, as one of my profs so eloquently described it. Morrison's "psychologic insight" into Batman's mind turns me off to his Batman stories more than anything else because they have very little grounding in actual psychology. If you want to write a story with a have psych basis you need to know what the hell you're writing about.

Morrison's Batman stories come across to me more like a fanfic from a guy who wanted to be a psychologist but didn't have the determination to follow through with all the classes necessary to become a licensed psych. He writes drama and crime noir stories so much better than these head-game stories of his and I wish he'd stick to what he really knows and is good at.

mr. december

10-05-2008, 02:14 PM

Jeez. How dare you talk crap about RIP.
Next thing you know, you'll be complaining about FINAL CRISIS.
You know, that story where the gods are...doing something, and there's a sumo wrestler...and characters who are big names and have been around for years die in one page...and everyone is suddenly talking about the end of the world but they haven't really gone into that very much...
wait.
Final Crisis is horrible too.

Yeah, I hate the crisis nonsense too. It's the publisher trying to get you to buy the books by screwing around with your favorite characters instead of just producing good stories.

jelly [blank] of doom

10-05-2008, 02:27 PM

Holy shit. What's with all the duplicate messages? I only posted each one once.

Because we are that awesome. :P

But yeah. I totally see where you're coming from. It just comes down for different strokes for different folks. And I'm a Morrison fanboy, I'll admit it.

And I totally think that Detective is the anti-Morrison. Well, sans the current arc. :P. But, Dini's has been nothing but fun single or two issue stories. I believe he was calling them barber shop stories. The prefect ying for the yang of Morrison's ultra-continuity arc.

ultramandingo

10-05-2008, 02:55 PM

..........im outraged j h williams isnt doing every issue - and it isnt coming out every third month - it be worth it for the batfan schaudenfreuden

heffison

10-05-2008, 03:00 PM

Was there ever an explanation for the thing on Bat-Mite's back? A Bat-Mite-Mite? Is it something eating into BruceMan's imagination, or reason, or whatever else Bat-Mite could represent?

I'd most like to see that this Bat-Mite is in Bruce's mind, but that there is still an externally real Bat-Mite as well. How would he feel about the way Bruce used him?

Okay, what I'd really most like to see is Nightwing get off the table and kick some serious ass.

Splatt

10-05-2008, 03:04 PM

I am suprised and outraged!

In fact, I am so outraged and suprised that I even made a song about my outrage!

Too bad I forgot to write it down :frown:

dotdotdot

10-05-2008, 03:30 PM

Yeah, I hate the crisis nonsense too. It's the publisher trying to get you to buy the books by screwing around with your favorite characters instead of just producing good stories.

that quote didn't do a good job of describing final crisis, yet that sloppy description still made it sound awesome.
also the idea that final crisis is anything but an attempt at producing a good story is ludicrous. for the millionth time it's an idea grant had and would have gone elseworlds with it if need be if they hadn't decide to use it as the big summer event.
i wish fanboys would grow some nuts and realize that the best stories come from giving top creators complete free reign to go apeshit in continuity.

josh straightedge

10-05-2008, 03:34 PM

Morrison has been quite hit or miss at DC lately. Seaguy sucked, Vinimarama(or whatever it is) sucked, We3 was genius, All-Star Supes is great, FC isn't that great and now Batman...and I think I've enjoyed 4 issues, none of which are R.I.P.-related. Actually, all the R.I.P. issues of any of the Batbooks have kinda stunk. He really hit the strongest on the story with the various Batmen. Plus, Tony Daniels art has never done it for me, except forever ago on the Tenth and that wasn't anything great either.

GRANT!

10-05-2008, 03:37 PM

..........im outraged j h williams isnt doing every issue - and it isnt coming out every third month - it be worth it for the batfan schaudenfreuden

I can legitmately agree with this statement. This story really needed someone of Williams's caliber. Daniel just isn't up to the task. I do think he's getting better but he's still not good enough.

josh straightedge

10-05-2008, 03:42 PM

JH Williams art would have set a better mood for the story. Plus his pencils always go great with Grant's writing.

carabas

10-05-2008, 03:47 PM

Was there ever an explanation for the thing on Bat-Mite's back? A Bat-Mite-Mite? Is it something eating into BruceMan's imagination, or reason, or whatever else Bat-Mite could represent?I think there is a big clue in that Bruce refers to it not as the Bat-Mite but as the Bat-Might in that scene where Bat-Might does his info-dump thing.

It is real, in a sense. Not actual physically real, but it is a part of his psyche. The arachnoid creature is the real thing. The childlike facade it hides behind, that's just false; that's just what Bruce tells himself Batman's core is. It is the part of him that died aged eight. It is the part of him that drives him to be Batman. It is the part of him that he doesn't like to aknowledge. It is a dark, primal, vicious, bloodthirsty thing, born of grief, anger and hate, and it is masquerades as a superhero. It is probably the source of the Batdick.

And it's probably going to die somewhere along the way. That's what Batman R.I.P. is really about, I think. The killing off of the dark and dreary, über-obsessive, self-destructive part of Bruce Wayne.

mr. december

10-05-2008, 06:11 PM

also the idea that final crisis is anything but an attempt at producing a good story is ludicrous.

You don't think Marvel and DC are constantly trying to one-up each other with ever more complex epics? Identity Crisis, Civil War, Infinite Crisis, Secret Invasion, Batman: RIP, etc?

guyjo

10-05-2008, 06:39 PM

I think there is a big clue in that Bruce refers to it not as the Bat-Mite but as the Bat-Might in that scene where Bat-Might does his info-dump thing.

It is real, in a sense. Not actual physically real, but it is a part of his psyche. The arachnoid creature is the real thing. The childlike facade it hides behind, that's just false; that's just what Bruce tells himself Batman's core is. It is the part of him that died aged eight. It is the part of him that drives him to be Batman. It is the part of him that he doesn't like to aknowledge. It is a dark, primal, vicious, bloodthirsty thing, born of grief, anger and hate, and it is masquerades as a superhero. It is probably the source of the Batdick.

And it's probably going to die somewhere along the way. That's what Batman R.I.P. is really about, I think. The killing off of the dark and dreary, über-obsessive, self-destructive part of Bruce Wayne.

That is an excellent theory, one I pretty much arrived at myself. This Batman RIP has been a refreshing change from the norm and I am just enjoying the ride!

carabas

10-05-2008, 06:43 PM

You don't think Marvel and DC are constantly trying to one-up each other with ever more complex epics? Identity Crisis, Civil War, Infinite Crisis, Secret Invasion, Batman: RIP, etc?
More like they are locked into a arms race of sorts for shelf space. I get the feeling that DC doesn't really want to do these endles series of events, but as long as Marvel keeps doing them, they have to keep up or be completely slaughtered, saleswise.

mr. december

10-05-2008, 06:52 PM

More like they are locked into a arms race of sorts for shelf space. I get the feeling that DC doesn't really want to do these endles series of events, but as long as Marvel keeps doing them, they have to keep up or be completely slaughtered, saleswise.

That's basically what I was saying.

And just for the record, I really prefer the stuff Marvel's been doing. I like the human interest angle.

princesa

10-05-2008, 07:21 PM

I keep waiting for you guys to tell me you're kidding about Bat-mite...:confused:

carabas

10-05-2008, 08:05 PM

That's basically what I was saying.I think there's a difference between one-upping one another and being basically forced to keep on doing events by economic necessity.

And just for the record, I really prefer the stuff Marvel's been doing. I like the human interest angle.In theory I should like Marvel's better, because they seem to have better consistancy and at least are giving the vague impression of someone having a clue as to where they are going with this.

In practice I grew deadly tired of events two years ago, and I'm only giving Final Crisis a chance because of Grant Morrison.

Damiean Dark

10-05-2008, 08:13 PM

More like they are locked into a arms race of sorts for shelf space. I get the feeling that DC doesn't really want to do these endles series of events, but as long as Marvel keeps doing them, they have to keep up or be completely slaughtered, saleswise.

What Marvel trumps DC on however is that they dont have to rely on there big guns to completely prop up these storys the crisis storys, kindom come ect are impossible without Supes and Bats but civil war, WWH ect could still be done without wolvie or spiderman who play bit part roles in each. It goes back to DC overexposing batman and superman until no epic DC story can exist without them. few of thier other characters have the depth to hold the mantle as lead in one of the DC epics imo (except maybe WW or GL).

Vidocq

10-05-2008, 08:42 PM

What Marvel trumps DC on however is that they dont have to rely on there big guns to completely prop up these storys the crisis storys, kindom come ect are impossible without Supes and Bats but civil war, WWH ect could still be done without wolvie or spiderman who play bit part roles in each. It goes back to DC overexposing batman and superman until no epic DC story can exist without them. few of thier other characters have the depth to hold the mantle as lead in one of the DC epics imo (except maybe WW or GL).

I think it's different. Logan and Spider-man are only the big guns in real life, while in the MU they are only a Secret Agent/X-Men and a Masked Vigilante. If they are going to make Huge Events like Civil War they can really rely on them for that type of story to make sense.

Do You see Wolverine and Spderman leading opposite sides on an Superhero war? Non of them alone has the resources or the Leadership to do that, regardless of their popularity amongst readers. However For a Huge conflict like say Final Crisis were everything is at stake, for Batman and Superman too have a minimal role seems impossible since they are the in-universe Big Guns like Iron Man and Captain America.

Captain Jim

10-05-2008, 09:11 PM

Yeah [Brian] was Joking reacting to a previous thread that said ''No Outrage over RIP''?

I believe you're right. I suppose that may have been obvious if the two threads were constantly adjacent on the forum, but otherwise it's a bit too subtle.

Bad move, Brian. It would have been a cute post on the original thread, but lost most of its punch as a separate thread.

mr. december

10-05-2008, 09:33 PM

I believe you're right. I suppose that may have been obvious if the two threads were constantly adjacent on the forum, but otherwise it's a bit too subtle.

Bad move, Brian. It would have been a cute post on the original thread, but lost most of its punch as a separate thread.

Yeah, I never even saw the other thread. Otherwise, I wouldn't have replied to Brian's post in the first place.

Mat001

10-06-2008, 12:26 AM

I don't think DC and Marvel do the events so much out of necessity, as they've been their bread and butter since the 80's. Yeah, they get sales boosts for all tie-in books and that hopefully drums up interest in the books that undersell. They only stopped for a while because they stopped turning a profit and because both companies believed that it would be better if they didn't do that. Turns out, it didn't matter and so they resumed the event crossovers.

stillanerd

10-06-2008, 12:33 AM

Hey, if people are outraged now, imagine if Morrison reveals in the final part of Batman R.I.P. that Jezebel Jet is actually the son of Joe Chill wanting revenge of Batman for making his father commit suicide, that he killed the real Jezebel Jet along with her family, got himself a sex change operation, and stole her identity. Hey, it worked for Ace Ventura and the idea that Batman was unknowingly involved in a relationship with a psychotic transsexual would certainly be the most shocking revelation in the past 70 years of the characters history, would it not? :tongue:

TeamED209

10-06-2008, 01:00 AM

I've been reading batman from the early nineties and im still enjoying morrisons run(other than the club of hero's ark)...i think he's at least attempting to do something different and on final crisis im waiting for 4 then ill start deciding..

It's seems like for every hardcore morrison fan(which im not) there's a hardcore morrison hater it's starting to look like the pro-bnd/against bnd group like over in spidey...

carabas

10-06-2008, 02:03 AM

Damiean Dark

10-06-2008, 02:44 AM

You are generalising. Superman and Batman have had bit parts so far in Final Crisis. They were hardly in 52. Batman had only a minor role in Identity Crisis, and Superman had like two panels of dialogue in that one as well. Sinestro Corps War anyone?

But could those comics exist as sellable material without them in those comics? the big threes presence is all over those epics as they are for most DC comics and for the few you have mentioned there are a ton of others that centre around the big three omiting the rest of DC to part players who either A rely on batman to think of something or B rely on superman to beat something.

And i already mentioned GL was maybe one who could carry an epic lets see one that is sucessful with Martian Manhunter, Flash, plastic man, ect as the central protaganist and then we can talk and those are not Z list characters they areB and C

carabas

10-06-2008, 10:15 AM

But could those comics exist as sellable material without them in those comics?52 indicates yes. the big threes presence is all over those epics as they are for most DC comics and for the few you have mentioned there are a ton of others that centre around the big three omiting the rest of DC to part players who either A rely on batman to think of something or B rely on superman to beat something.

And i already mentioned GL was maybe one who could carry an epic lets see one that is sucessful with Martian Manhunter, Flash, plastic man, ect as the central protaganist and then we can talk and those are not Z list characters they areB and C Most events, including anything with Crisis in the title, do not have such a thing as a central protagonist. The only event I can think of that had the trinity as a big part of it would be Infinite Crisis. And it's not as if Marvel's events do not centre around Iron Man, Captain America, Spider-Man...

bannermanonemillion

10-06-2008, 01:39 PM

I will only say this:

I bow to almost no one in pure Bat-fanboyism, but if I was writing Batman I'd be accused of abusing the character on the level of Bendis' Daredevil. I would put Batman through the most hellish things TPTB would let me because I know that when he walks out the other side, he'll be stronger than before, more balanced and able to walk into the Hall of Justice surrounded by rainbow-suited demigods and know he's the s**t.

So Morrison's current arc has Bruce put through the mental ringer. Good. As Alfred said, Dr. Hurt is going to live up to his name once Batman gets his gloves on him.

the-wolf

10-06-2008, 05:48 PM

More like they are locked into a arms race of sorts for shelf space. I get the feeling that DC doesn't really want to do these endles series of events, but as long as Marvel keeps doing them, they have to keep up or be completely slaughtered, saleswise.

The thing I don't get about this statement though, is that a lot of people (me included) constantly complain about these events and cross-overs and especially all of the damn tie-ins. They view them as nothing but money grabs and many refuse to even read them. So wouldn't going in the other direction actually increase sales then?

carabas

10-06-2008, 05:57 PM

Many may dislike them, but may, many, many more gobble them up like cocaine-flavoured M&Ms.
And a very large portion of the fans who dislike events still buy a ton of event books because thet want to keep up with their universe of choice, because they don't want to break up their perfect Batman or X-Men collections, or simply out of habit.

If comics fans had more brains/willpower, the top 20 would look very different.

Ronald Bryan

10-06-2008, 06:01 PM

I am outraged that the next issue is not out yet.

Oh, it came out last week? OK, no outrage, then.

the-wolf

10-06-2008, 06:01 PM

Damiean Dark

10-07-2008, 12:49 AM

52 indicates yes. the big threes presence is all over those epics as they are for most DC comics and for the few you have mentioned there are a ton of others that centre around the big three omiting the rest of DC to part players who either A rely on batman to think of something or B rely on superman to beat something.

Most events, including anything with Crisis in the title, do not have such a thing as a central protagonist. The only event I can think of that had the trinity as a big part of it would be Infinite Crisis. And it's not as if Marvel's events do not centre around Iron Man, Captain America, Spider-Man...

The hulk the FF the Xmen, the avengers, doctor strange ect ect more rounded characters who are capable of holding a story together without the aid of iron man, cap, or spidey.

Sean Whitmore

10-07-2008, 01:05 AM

The hulk the FF the Xmen, the avengers, doctor strange ect ect more rounded characters who are capable of holding a story together without the aid of iron man, cap, or spidey.

I'm not sure I understand. Your litmus test seems to be the ability to carry an epic solo. What's the last epic Hulk, the FF, or Doctor Strange carried without the aid of Iron Man, Cap, or Spidey?

The Avengers in particular include Iron Man, Cap, and Spidey.

SEAN

carabas

10-07-2008, 01:10 AM

The hulk the FF the Xmen, the avengers, doctor strange ect ect more rounded characters who are capable of holding a story together without the aid of iron man, cap, or spidey.Hulk is one of Marvel's equivalent of The Trinity. Please tell me about these FF, Doc Strange and Avengers (without, Cap, Iron Man, Spidey or Wolverine in the line-up) big stories. I have never heard of them.

carabas

10-07-2008, 01:16 AM

You're right. But, if DC did go the other direction, would sales really decrease? Or would the new direction be so refreshing that even Marvel Zombies might start picking up DC titles, causing an increase in sales? Or would they just remain even?
Doubtfull sales would go up. When you look at sales figures you can see that books tied to events go up by some 20 to 50%, and immediately drop back to their old levels, with maybe a slight permanent gain once the event is done.

ANewHope

10-07-2008, 01:19 AM

I posted this in the original thread, enjoy

There really isn't too much to complain about.

You might not like the direction Batman is heading, but the execution of the story is so well done that you really can't complain. Everything is coming together for a grand finale, involving just about everyone in Batman's life.

Although I'm not really a fan of kill-everyone- Joker, it doesn't bother me as far as continuity gos. He's always been one crazy son of a bitch, so I guess just killing everyone for fun doesn't surprise me that much. At least he did something cool with the razor instead of just killing people. However, I think if anyone cuts their tonuge that much, they won't be able to talk anymore. At least it looked cool, but thats my only criticism. And anyone who complains about realism in comic books, is just wasting their time in general.

It's a great story, it's almost epic in the making. Morrison is telling one hellova story.

ANewHope

10-07-2008, 01:22 AM

Hulk is one of Marvel's equivalent of The Trinity. Please tell me about these FF, Doc Strange and Avengers (without, Cap, Iron Man, Spidey or Wolverine in the line-up) big stories. I have never heard of them.

The Hulk isn't part of a trinity. He's been around long enough to obtain that status, but he's not..

Nobody gave a damn about the Hulk for a long time, till Planet Hulk. Right now he's popular, but he's definitely not a DC trinity equivalent.

In my opinion, Marvel's trinity is Spiderman, Xmen (and by Xmen I mean Wolverine), and Captain America (Or Ironman)

I can see why you might consider the Hulk part of the Avengers trinity, between Cap American and Ironman.

Sean Whitmore

10-07-2008, 01:27 AM

The Hulk isn't part of a trinity. He's been around long enough to obtain that status, but he's not..

Nobody gave a damn about the Hulk for a long time, till Planet Hulk. Right now he's popular, but he's definitely not a DC trinity equivalent.

I'd say Hulk deserves "trinity-esque" status as much as Wonder Woman does, if only for recognition. Because let's face it, neither one of them burns up the sales charts.

SEAN

Don't pee in the (Dead)pool

10-07-2008, 03:23 AM

You're right. But, if DC did go the other direction, would sales really decrease? Or would the new direction be so refreshing that even Marvel Zombies might start picking up DC titles, causing an increase in sales? Or would they just remain even?

I must admit I never used to buy DC, only ever Marvel.
Now however, I've bought Batman RIP (and found all of Grant Morrison's run) using the money I no longer spend on Amazing Spider-Man.
Grant Morrison's Batman is the best the character has been in years and I, for one, am in for the long haul.

carabas

10-07-2008, 05:27 AM

The Hulk isn't part of a trinity. He's been around long enough to obtain that status, but he's not..

Nobody gave a damn about the Hulk for a long time, till Planet Hulk. Right now he's popular, but he's definitely not a DC trinity equivalent.I didn't literally mean a Marvel trinity. Marvel's got more ofa quintinity going. But Sean said, if wonder woman is Trinity material (and nobody's given a damn about Wonder Woman since forever) so is the Hulk.

John Lynch

10-07-2008, 06:19 AM

I thought I had a lot of catching up to do with the character when I started in '89. I can't imagine a new reader coming on board and sorting through 4 Robins, 2 Batwomans, the Huntress, Spoiler, Azrael, 16 major catastrophes to Gotham, broken backs, villains back from the dead, broken backs, half-sisters of love interests, 20-odd love interests, repeated resignations from the butler, Gordon retiring and then not, etc., etc., etc. You know, the definitive, iconic version of the character that DiDio was talking about a while ago.I gotta disagree. I came into DC with OYL and I had no problem catching up. I don't know about half the things you just mentioned, but I don't need to in order to follow a good Batman story. Understanding the story isn't reliant on knowing every single fart Bruce Wayne has produced.

Now if they'd stop pulling Detective Comics into crossover hell I'd actually be able to get the aforementioned good story.

Damien. Another bad idea that everyone seems to hate.I don't.

Anyway, I don't hate RIP. I'd have to have read any of its issues to hate it. I don't like Morrison's work and so I knew I wouldn't like RIP and so I dropped all the tie-ins.

i wish fanboys would grow some nuts and realize that the best stories come from giving top creators complete free reign to go apeshit in continuity.If he could turn out stories I like by going apeshit, I'd love him. Unfortunately he doesn't. Disliking Morrison doesn't make you a eunuch.

And just for the record, I really prefer the stuff Marvel's been doing. I like the human interest angle.I've felt Secret Invasion was a big miss.

You're right. But, if DC did go the other direction, would sales really decrease? Or would the new direction be so refreshing that even Marvel Zombies might start picking up DC titles, causing an increase in sales? Or would they just remain even?What if DC stopped publishing all of its titles except for Booster Gold. Would DC's sales go through the roof? No-one has a crystal ball and so no-one can say.

You might not like the direction Batman is headingWhat direction? There is no direction. No-one knows how this thing will end. I just want the damn crossover to be over so I can go back to books I enjoy.

I'd say Hulk deserves "trinity-esque" status as much as Wonder Woman doesYeah, but Wonder Woman doesn't deserve it. She's there because DC wants to appear PC. If she was called Wonder Man there would be no Trinity (that or a different character would be in it).

Chiroptera

10-07-2008, 09:08 AM

I can't help finding it amusing, so many people here on CBR seem to dislike Wonder Woman, particularly on the Batman forums.

For me, Wonder Woman's the only thing I've got left at DC that I really enjoy; with Catwoman cancelled and JSA all wrapepd up in this kingdom come business the only character I've got left who isn't being run through a horrendous over the top crossover event is Wondy; if she gets sucked into something like my other favorites have been I won't have anything left in DC to enjoy anymore. :(
I've already stopped reading Marvel, I don't want to find myself abandoning both companies all-together.

Damiean Dark

10-07-2008, 09:12 AM

DC just cant use characters effectively Wonder Woman has potential but is ignored for the big two as is all of DC. A perfect example to me is Martian Manhunter he is one of the most underated characters in comics imo i feel far more for his thoughts then dumbass superman and the JL toon should have brought more fans into him but DC have never really made him into the popular charcter he could be.

All they care about is Superman and Batman.

carabas

10-07-2008, 09:12 AM

I can't help finding it amusing, so many people here on CBR seem to dislike Wonder Woman, particularly on the Batman forums.
I love wonder Woman, but I think tha twhat I wrote ("and nobody [in editorial] has given a damn about Wonder Woman since forever") is true.

There was a brief glimmer of hope that the character was going to be allowed to step on the foreground with her role in Final Crisis, but that potential was pissed away in Heinberg's seventies nostalgia trip.

jesse_custer

10-07-2008, 09:34 AM

I haven't read one issue of Batman RIP (in fact, I dropped Detective Comics from my list), but damn, I feel good.

Chiroptera

10-07-2008, 02:20 PM

I love wonder Woman, but I think that what I wrote ("and nobody [in editorial] has given a damn about Wonder Woman since forever") is true.

There was a brief glimmer of hope that the character was going to be allowed to step on the foreground with her role in Final Crisis, but that potential was pissed away in Heinberg's seventies nostalgia trip.

See I don't find this to be true at all. In fact, I think it's the exact opposite.

Between Trinity and WW's own comic now penned by Gail Simone, she's managed to bounce back form Heinberg's ridiculous mangling of the character for nostalgia. Plus several of the higher ups at DC recently have been stating an interest in improving Wonder Woman's status within the DCU, and I do believe they mean if if Simone's run is anything to show; particularly when it's combined with Trinity. Between those two comics it's now being implied that Wondy's not just the best warrior of the DCU but also faster than Superman and a better war-time strategist than Batman is.
Even so little has 5 years ago I can't imagine such notions having made it past the editors.

Plus, if Didio and Simone's words hold true, then Wonder Woman's about to get a huge push toward deserving her rank in the Trinity thanks to the new story arc about to begin in her comic.
I don't think the people in the biz are against WW, I think it's the comic book readers who aren't willing to give her a chance or event to accept the idea that she MIGHT deserve to be up there in the Trinity with Supes and Bats.

the-wolf

10-07-2008, 07:52 PM

I gotta disagree. I came into DC with OYL and I had no problem catching up. I don't know about half the things you just mentioned, but I don't need to in order to follow a good Batman story. Understanding the story isn't reliant on knowing every single fart Bruce Wayne has produced.

What if DC stopped publishing all of its titles except for Booster Gold. Would DC's sales go through the roof? No-one has a crystal ball and so no-one can say.

What direction? There is no direction. No-one knows how this thing will end. I just want the damn crossover to be over so I can go back to books I enjoy.

I'm not saying you can't read a Batman story right now without catching up, but by your own admission you don't know half of the things I mentioned. Everyone is different I guess, but myself, for example, I've never picked up Daredevil because reading the reviews and previews there's a lot of stuff that goes back to Miller's run. And even though there's a lot of crap in-between, I simply don't have the time or money to pick up his stuff, plus Bendis's run, plus Brubaker's stuff. It's just too much to get into, so I don't even bother. Batman's required reading list dwarfs Daredevil by probably 10x.

People do pick up crossovers out of a collector's mentality or the desire to stay current in their universe, but for how long? Sooner or later people will have had enough. You have to admit, the size of crossovers and events now as compared to 5 years ago, compared to 10 years ago, compared to 10 years before that, has grown exponentially. I used to get them. My bubble has burst. So has others. More will follow. I mean, what's DC gonna do next year to top FC? Or Marvel to top CW and SI? I think the pinnacle has been reached. You can't just keep getting bigger and bigger.

So, take the lead and go the other way. Be a breath of fresh air. Just tell good stories. Stop screwing over other titles and writers with events. Put the brakes on "life-altering, never be the same again, brand-new-direction, back-to-basics, universe-shattering" craptastic blockbusters. When you do crossovers, keep them more localized, between groups of heroes who share the same part of the playground. Why does every single character the company ever produced suddenly have to come out of the woodwork to participate in a joint venture? Give me the Janus Directive over FC or IC.

I think it would work. Besides, when these events ruin other titles that were previously doing well, are those losses being deducted from the gains?

DeadXMan

10-07-2008, 08:01 PM

I'm not sure I understand. Your litmus test seems to be the ability to carry an epic solo. What's the last epic Hulk, the FF, or Doctor Strange carried without the aid of Iron Man, Cap, or Spidey?

The Avengers in particular include Iron Man, Cap, and Spidey.

SEAN

WWH:tongue:

which totally kick both WWIII & amazon attacks asses

Sean Whitmore

10-07-2008, 08:16 PM

WWH:tongue:

Hulk only carried one end of that story, though. The other half was carried by the Illuminati, Sentry, and pretty much every other active hero at the time.

SEAN

Astonishing X-Fan

10-07-2008, 08:24 PM

Yeah, but Wonder Woman doesn't deserve it. She's there because DC wants to appear PC. If she was called Wonder Man there would be no Trinity (that or a different character would be in it).

I gotta call BS there. She DOES deserve it. Simply because of pop culture impact and awareness. The Trinity are the Trinity because they are the three most iconic, well-known heroes in the DC universe. Wonder Woman may not be a top-selling comic book, but EVERYONE has heard of Wonder Woman. She wasn't put in the Trinity because of a desire to be PC, she was put in because she's a pop culture icon, as are the other two.

ROOBARB

10-07-2008, 09:17 PM

cant stand Morrisons work ................yea i know i didnt contribute anythig to this thread but hay it feels good typeing it :cool:

Chiroptera

10-07-2008, 10:26 PM

cant stand Morrisons work ................yea i know i didnt contribute anythig to this thread but hay it feels good typeing it :cool:

Let it all out man! It's the internet, a place where even the most crazy of us can stand up and be heard! :tongue:

carabas

10-08-2008, 01:07 AM

Plus, if Didio and Simone's words hold true, then Wonder Woman's about to get a huge push toward deserving her rank in the Trinity thanks to the new story arc about to begin in her comic. I don't know. I've heard them say this a couple of times before, and nothing has ever come from it.

I don't think the people in the biz are against WW, I think it's the comic book readers who aren't willing to give her a chance or event to accept the idea that she MIGHT deserve to be up there in the Trinity with Supes and Bats.That is probably part of it, but part of why readers (and retailers) have little faith in the character is that DC has given them little reason to have faith.

Damiean Dark

10-08-2008, 06:11 AM

Hulk only carried one end of that story, though. The other half was carried by the Illuminati, Sentry, and pretty much every other active hero at the time.

SEAN

Thats the beauty of Marvel over DC all there characters in one epic story they didnt enter say a few lines and dissapear into the background so Bats and supes can steal the show they had a real part and effect on the story.

carabas

10-08-2008, 06:22 AM

Thats the beauty of Marvel over DC all there characters in one epic story they didnt enter say a few lines and dissapear into the background so Bats and supes can steal the show they had a real part and effect on the story.Dude, that's barely intelligeble English.

"That's the beauty of Marvel over DC: all their characters in one epic story, they didn't enter, say a few lines, and dissapear into the background so Bats and Supes can steal the show. They had a real part and effect on the story."
That's more like it.

Now, please name one DC event in which no characters but Superman and Batman had any meaningful part. I can think of a few in whch their presence was negible.

Captain Jim

10-08-2008, 06:52 PM

What, this thread is still going? Why?

nepenthes

10-08-2008, 09:23 PM

vickvega

10-08-2008, 09:41 PM

Neil Gaiman is writing Batman next, along with a mini by Kevin Smith. The Morrison haters should be happy about this. Wonder Woman? No thanks.

Chiroptera

10-08-2008, 10:16 PM

so can anyone recommend some definitive, classic, best ever WW trades or something? more mythology and less superheroes

Grant Morrison writes the best Superman and X-Men and I know, and a phenomenal Batman. I love to see what he'd do with All Star Aquaman or Wonder Woman, that would be glorious. Neil Gaiman on Wonder Woman would be a good fit too.

Greg Rucka's entire run is brilliant. George Perez's is highly recommended by most, though I personally don't regard it to be as glorious as others, but still enjoyable.
Wonder Woman the Hiketia is a good Myth heavy story, as is all of Rucka's WW stories, he really took advantage of her mythological back ground.

Personally, Wonder Woman: Spirit of Truth, by Paul Dini and Alex Ross is the absolute definition of who Wonder Woman is in my book.