Was the 90s the golden age of cartoons?

[shades of eternity]

was the 90's the golden age of cartoons?

I just saw the nostalgia critics top 11 most nostalgia cartoons and realized that the majority of them were from the 90's

The simpsons: this is the stick that all animation will be measured. any series that can last almost 2 decades and still be reasonably funny needs to be appreciated.

Batman - the series that launched the longest running cartoon in history (with the exception of the simpsons:P). bruce tim and paul dini repackaged the dc universe with inspiration from just about everything and made it their own. I really want them to continue this series and keep my fingers crossed for a jlu:next.

Animaniacs: the only worthy successor of the loony toons. with a lot of fun, awesome characters and some great writing, it left a legacy that just rocked.

The Tick: the single greatest parody of the super hero genre of all time. I consider the tick to be the my example of somebody truely good in the universe when I feel humans are scum.

Ren and stimpy: wierd as hell. Original as hell.

The disney afternoon: eisner may have had many faults, but the one I don't give him is the sheer fun that these cartoons brought.

Aladin is required watching for any gm needing a plot and it was a blast as well.

what aladin is to fantasy gaming, tail spin is for the pulp genre. I loved the repackaging of baloo as a bush pilot in the 30's. I have used don carnage as a villian in my games and that is the perfect version of sher khan. :)

Ducktales has the single most addictive theme song period and if you like treasure hunts, this is your show.

Darkwing duck is in the same universe as ducktales and expands on it still further to the the point it's a blast.

I still got a soft spot for the gummi bears. while they were shown before the 90's, they were the first show to star in this slot in 1990 so it is shown here.

Gargoyles: while part of the disney afternoon, it is awesome enough to give it it's own header. Dark, well animated, great characters, and surprisingly moral for a show about genocide, it has my undying praise.

super mario brothers super show: without this show, we wouldn't have the phrase "scuse me princess". for that alone it gets praise :).

Exo-squad: or how to tell a war story in animated format. Extremely well done.

Johnny bravo - the last hanna barbera character that was original yet fun to remember. Hell a buddy of mine built him for a besm character and had a blast.

reboot: probably one of the greatest stories ever told. the cgi was amazing for it's time. The growing up of enzo matrix should be a character study and tony jay outdid himself as megabyte.

beast wars: I hadn't looked at transformers in quite some time, when I first say this series, I thought it was blasphemy. Then It showed itself to be as good a quality as reboot. Hell dinobot alone was yet another character study.

and the interesting thing was there was a ton of pretty good cartoons as well
x-men
spiderman
earthworm gym
freakazoid
tiny toon adventures
mighty max
bot's master
shadow raiders
pirates of dark water
dexter's laboratory
duckman
gravedale high
the tail end of tmnt
biker mice from mars.
Where on Earth is Carmen San Diego

I guess my question is what the hell happened? Most of these cartoons happened after nbc cancelled saturday morning cartoons. and the only two that come to mind after the 90's that weren't a continuation of the timverse are avatar and invader zim?

[Michael P]

Of cartoons on television? Possibly.

Of cartoons overall? Go back about 40-50 years.

[Pól Rua]

Golden Age? Fuck. No.
The only thing 90's cartoons had going for them was their conscious willingness to ape the cartoons of the 40's and 50's.

The Simpsons is very good. All credit to it, but still, it's an updated version of The Flintstones, which was a cartoon version of the Honeymooners with rock puns.
Batman is freaking awesome, but at its heart, it's basically an updated version of the Fleisher's Superman shorts.
Animaniacs is entirely ripped off from 1940's cartoon shorts with a bunch of selfconsciously hip crap thrown over the top. Honestly, anyone who thinks the songs in Animaniacs are anything to write home about should check out the Tom Lehrer stuff that they're blatantly derivative off.
The Tick is basically just an adaption of the comics. The best episodes are drawn straight from the original material. Same with stuff like Sam and Max.
Ren and Stimpy: Original as hell? Not if you've seen much of Tex Avery's more outre material. Again, drawing consciously from an earlier age of cartoons.
The Disney Afternoon: basically an inferior series of riffs on older material from genuinely creative folks like Carl Barks.
Gargoyles: Disney's answer to Batman. Pretty much Batman with some themes from longform anime series overlaid. By the numbers stuff.
Exo-squad: or how to tell a war story in animated format. Something the Gundam series had been doing for well over twenty years by that time.
Johnny Bravo. The Fonz + any Hanna Barbera comedy character + a name from The Brady Bunch. By the numbers.
Reboot: Actually pretty good.
beast wars: Another cynical toy ad.

Seriously, I'm not trying to get on your case or anything, but when you make blanket statements, you really should look around first. There's a lot of stuff going on if you'll look beyond your immediate surroundings.

[DWEarhart]

The 90's were an entertaining time for cartoons, but, really, all they did was thrust the maturity level of the shows in everyone's faces, which wasn't bad, but wasn't as exciting as the subtlety of the past, which made people think about the material long after it was shown, I feel.

But if a show was good, no matter what era it came from, then, it was good. I adore many shows that came from the 90's, mostly from the 80's (my era), but the golden age - nope - gotta agree with the others - it was the 40's and 50's. Your brain laughs and thinks until it hurts with that era.

Vive Tex Avery! Vive Fleisher!

[StoneGold]

Yeah, the only way you can call the 90s the Golden Age is if there was some sort of time vortex that ate every other period in history. There already is a Golden Age of animation. Although I have to disagree with others in the thread, it started in the 30s. I mean, you've got Snow White in 37. Hell, you could argue maybe even the late 20s, with Steamboat Willie in '28.

[Wenatchee the Hatchet]

Golden age of animation? No, not for America. Silver age of animation, absolutely. There's a huge gap between the gold and silver age as I see it, but that's fine.

Simpsons have been solid, but even there we've got Dan Castalleneta channeling James Finlayson! "D'oh" is straight ouf the Finlayson lexicon. I think folks are right to say that at their heart all the 90s great 'toons were going back to the golden age of whatever came before, which is why I'd say 90s were silver age. The older I get and the more time I get to spend tracking how different kinds of art develop the more it seems as though the leading edge is usually either strictly experimental or, more often, digging so far back they're pulling up stuff only specialists remember so that the shows seem more daring than they really are, a sort of neo-classical thing. It happened in 20th century music, too. You had Schoenberg breaking up all that came before and then you had Stravinsky going so far back into folk music he brought back stuff that was not considered conventional.

Still, for cartoons on TV I would venture to say there's a plausible case it's the golden age. The shorts from the 30's to 50's preceded feature length films and in a way it wouldn't be accurate to attempt to make a comparison of shows made specifically for TV with some of the golden age WB films, or I just might be addled on that. OVerall I still lean 90s as silver age. The case is more pronounced, I think, if you add anime. Some amazing stuff in anime but was it necessarily all as amazing relative to the genre as stuff that came earlier? Or is that casting the net way too broadly?

[Pól Rua]

I think my previous post came across a little harsh, and I apologise if it did.
That said, yeah, there WAS some nice animation during the 90's.

I enjoyed a lot of the cartoons you mentioned, especially the earlier Ren & Stimpy episodes, Simpsons, Batman and The Tick.

But if you're going to start talking about 'a golden age', it's not just a matter of "there were lots of things I enjoyed". You're talking about a sustained series of qualitatively excellent series/projects.

And really, compared to the great work done in the 40's and 50's, modern cartoons, which are so heavily hamstrung by corporate interests, overprotective censors and soulless marketing really have no hope of competing.

[ultramandingo]

............ show me anything that looks as good as the Fleisher brothers superman or popeye . maybe the thread should be called golden age of korean animation

[ZT4]

beast wars: Another cynical toy ad.


....You didnt watch the show at all. Congratulations.

[Pól Rua]

....You didnt watch the show at all. Congratulations.

An ad for a bunch of toys spun off from another bunch of toys with a bunch of long-form anime tropes layered on top and some CGI-flavoured novelty over the top.
Get over yourself.

I didn't cry when the autobots died in the movie either. Maybe I have no soul.

[DWEarhart]

An ad for a bunch of toys spun off from another bunch of toys with a bunch of long-form anime tropes layered on top and some CGI-flavoured novelty over the top.
Get over yourself.

I didn't cry when the autobots died in the movie either. Maybe I have no soul.

No, I agree; Beast Wars was another seeding for toy selling, however, when it became Beast Machines - that's when the story got gooooood - in my opinion.

However, good sir, you know I respect you, but DAMN if I didn't shed a tear for the Autobots that died in Transformers: The Movie (The Real Movie-'87).

[Ontir]

There are a great many really good cartoons listed here, far more than I thought possible, but no the 90's wasn't any kind of Golden Age. Maybe a silver or bronze, but even the best among what you listed were drawing heavily from other material. The Dini/Timm cartoons drew heavily from the Fleischers and Ren & Stimpy came very much from the Tex Avery universe - albeit a more gross-out version. The most original in the bunch is "Re-Boot," which I loved, and "Beast Wars" is the only time "Transformers" have ever been even remotely interesting to me.

The Golden Age began with "Steamboat Willie," and ended in the late 60's/early 70's when the studios dismantled their animation departments.

[Pól Rua]

The Golden Age began with "Steamboat Willie," and ended in the late 60's/early 70's when the studios dismantled their animation departments.

I'd also add to the end the era when parents' groups started calling for widespread censorship of cartoons.

[Toku King]

The Simpsons is very good. All credit to it, but still, it's an updated version of The Flintstones.

God, not even close. Sorry, but "The Flinstones" was horrid, no matter how much people try to argue. "The Simpsons" created its ow legacy of original characters and world famous episodes.

[Wenatchee the Hatchet]

I must be worst of all. I waited for Prime to die and was basically done with the movie. :biggrin:

Beast Wars was at least more interesting in terms of writing (eventually) than the original series, I give `em that.

Golden age of Korean animation? Sure, why not?

That definition of the golden age allows me to deliberately omit Lord of the Rings and other Tolkien adaptations via `toon. Awesome. :)

[Toku King]

....You didnt watch the show at all. Congratulations.

That's exactly what I was thinking. There is no way anyone calling BW a toy propaganda show has actually ever watched it.

[Pól Rua]

God, not even close. Sorry, but "The Flinstones" was horrid, no matter how much people try to argue. "The Simpsons" created its ow legacy of original characters and world famous episodes.

I'm arguing originality. You're arguing quality.
I DID say that the Simpsons is very good and I give all credit to it.
But it IS, in the end, a family sitcom about a dumb, fat dad. It's a better cartoon in almost every way, but let's be honest, it's drawing from a 40+ year old template.

Do try and pay attention.

[Pól Rua]

That's exactly what I was thinking. There is no way anyone calling BW a toy propaganda show has actually ever watched it.

Oh god, I'm so wrong. Obviously, the holy trinity of high art is 'Hamlet', 'Citizen Kane' and the one about the Japanese Robot which turns into a monkey and fights the Japanese Robot that turns into a dinosaur.

How could I have been so blind?

[ZT4]

Oh god, I'm so wrong. Obviously, the holy trinity of high art is 'Hamlet', 'Citizen Kane' and the one about the Japanese Robot which turns into a monkey and fights the Japanese Robot that turns into a dinosaur

You lose the argument with every shallow, cynical childish rant you make on this.

Oh, and BW was CANADIAN and written by AMERICANS.

[Toku King]

I'm arguing originality. You're arguing quality.
I DID say that the Simpsons is very good and I give all credit to it.

And why can't I mean both?
Yes, because since they're both animated family sitcoms, they're the same.
Do try to pay attention.

[Wenatchee the Hatchet]

Hmm, Snow White was original? Pinnochio was original? Even Mickey Mouse may not have beatn Krazy Kat for originality. If the argument is from ORIGINALITY the argument is weaker because there's not as much that's purely original to cinema as might first appear. Not that that makes it bad or anything.

[Pól Rua]

And why can't I mean both?
Yes, because since they're both animated family sitcoms, they're the same.
Do try to pay attention.

The Simpsons is very good. All credit to it, but still, it's an updated version of The Flintstones, which was a cartoon version of the Honeymooners with rock puns.

These two statements do not mean the same thing.
Reading comprehension is important.

Why can't you mean both?

Because your argument as to why they're not the same is 'Flintstones is horrid'.
My argument is that The Honeymooners (which The Flintstones is pretty much a straight adaption of) and The Simpsons are both family sitcoms centring on a fat dad and his desperate, hare-brained schemes. In both cases, the series are a reaction against the 'Happy Families', 'Father Knows Best'-style of family sitcom in which a wise patriarch overcomes problems (usually involving the children) with the help of a compassionate mother, and in which the end result is that the traditional family unit is strengthened and the status quo is restored.

I'm talking based on observation and evaluation of form.
You're talking based on an instinctive qualitative value judgement.

So yes, you may mean both, but you should communicate it better before calling me on a lack of comprehension.

[Pól Rua]

You lose the argument with every shallow, cynical childish rant you make on this.

Oh, and BW was CANADIAN and written by AMERICANS.

The Transformers were created in Japan, and Beast Wars centred on the combat between two forces of transforming robots led by Optimus Prime/Primal and Megatron, so yeah, the robots are Japanese.

Intelligent, mature reasons why Beast Wars was a toy ad:
The toys came first. Hasbro came to an animation company and asked them to produce a television series based on their new toys. Are you honestly going to tell me that Hasbro contracted the animators to create a cartoon series for any reason other than to help sell their toys? And can you give the Hasbro execs ANY motivation besides a cynical desire for cash?
Ergo, cynical toy ad.

[Lester C.]

Of American cartoons perhaps. Japan is still cranking out awesome anime.

[Kaos]

...I'm a 80s baby...90s child...so all I know is the 90's cartoons. Gotta say...they kicked a lotta ass...seriously low 21st century saturday morning cartoons. They just don't compare.

[Donald M.]

This thread, again?

The answer to the thread creator's question is no.

There were some really good 'toons in the 90's . . . but no, sorry.

[Agent Helix]

It was certainly the golden age of writers trying to out-clever one another.

[Conn Seanery]

Gummi Bears was the best cartoon ever, and anyone who disagrees is a dirty, stinky alien nazi cyborg who never flosses. I enjoyed it and it made me feel good for a bit.

[Justin D.]

Why do the most innocent of subjects end up with me having to quote the following from the guidelines posted at the top of the board?

No personal attacks. If you don't like what someone says, argue against what's said and not against the person. No ad hominem attacks will be tolerated.

Oh, and Gummi Bears did rock.

[LordEd1976]

and now you guys have made the Gummy Bears theme get stuck in my head.

Don't get me wrong, I love the theme but at the moment I'm at work and its hard to look serious when you're singing the Gummy Bears theme.

[Sean Walsh]

Gummi Bears was the best cartoon ever, and anyone who disagrees is a dirty, stinky alien nazi cyborg who never flosses.

........well, I don't floss as often as I should.

And while I do find the whole Nazi thing creepily fascinating, I totally don't subscribe to any of their beliefs whatsoever.

Otherwise, not nice dude. Not nice.

:tongue:

[Ontir]

I'd also add to the end the era when parents' groups started calling for widespread censorship of cartoons.

That's about the same time.

Gummi Bears was a cartoon?

[Wenatchee the Hatchet]

Yeah, though I barely remember anything about it. Rubik the Amazing Cube ... on the other hand, I remembe rin harrowing detail :eek:

[Conn Seanery]

........well, I don't floss as often as I should.

And while I do find the whole Nazi thing creepily fascinating, I totally don't subscribe to any of their beliefs whatsoever.

Otherwise, not nice dude. Not nice.

:tongue:
I was emulating some of the "my cartoon can beat up your cartoon" mentality that was leaking into the thread, no offense intended (though your dentist will thank me).

I was joking about Gummi Bears of course, but I do remember enjoying that cartoon way back when (Disney had some good TV cartoons in that period).

[JDogindy]

The '90s also created stinkers: Family Dog, Family Guy, and Stickin' Around.

In spite of that, this was the Silver Age, not the Golden Age, of animation. The Golden Age is where the entire concept of something is revolutionized, while the Silver Age ushers in a new wave of things.

[ViciousX]

Gargoyles: Disney's answer to Batman. Pretty much Batman with some themes from longform anime series overlaid. By the numbers stuff.

Disney's answer to Batman? Not in the slightest.

Greg Weisman even wrote up this little ramble on the subject:


Batman vs. Gargoyles...

As I believe I've mentioned before, there was once some fear at Buena Vista (our distribution arm) that GARGOYLES would be perceived as a rip off of BATMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES. Now, that seems all but laughable, but then it was a sincere concern at BVTV. (The fact that we had Frank & Michael on our show, both of them major contributors to B:TAS, probably didn't help.) So they asked me to write up a memo showing the differences. That memo follows, unedited. Note the date.

(6-14-94)

Random thoughts on the differences between Gargoyles and Batman:

--Batman was traumatized as a child, by witnessing the death of his parents, which left him totally alone and psychologically scarred for life.
--Goliath had a major tragedy occur in his life, but it happened when he was an adult. He was not left totally alone. He is mature enough to realize that bad things can happen to good gargoyles and he is creating a positive life for himself and his clan.

--Batman fights criminals because of a deep-psychological need to stop their evil.
--Goliath and the gargoyles protect the innocent because they are protective by nature. It is a very primal instinct to them. They are not taking eternal vengeance.

--Batman is one man in a suit. (Two men if you count Robin.) He wears a mask to protect his secret identity.
--There are six gargoyles, each with unique personalities. And they are a different species -- monsters. Nothing put on. No secret identies. No posing as normal. Very little technology.

--Gotham City is New York at it's worst. Dark, ugly, cynical.
--Goliath's Manhattan is a dangerous but beautiful place, w/a rich colorful palate. A place of Hope.

--Batman faces a colorful array of villains, all with their own separate backstories.
--The Gargoyles face a colorful array of villains, whose backstories intertwine with the gargoyle's own rich history in ancient Scotland and modern Manhattan.

--Batman is reality based w/a few exaggerations and sci-fi elements thrown in.
--Gargoyles is more fantastic. Magic is quantifiable, but it exists. Immortals and sorcerers walk the earth.

--Batman is a man for his time.
--The gargoyles are creatures who are displaced in time trying to adjust to the modern world.

--Batman has no regular female character (unless you count villains like Poison Ivy or the occasional use of Batgirl.)
--The gargoyles are supported by Elisa Maza, a strong, capable but tender, female New York Police detective.

--Batman wears a cape.
--The gargoyles have wings which can fold over like a cape, but can also be used to glide through the air, simulating true flight.

--Batman wears a utility belt with gadgets included.
--Gargoyles don't. Hudson wears a sword though.

--Batman wears boots.
--Gargoyles are barefoot.

--Batman doesn't have super-human strength or powerful claws or a tail.
--The gargoyles do.

--Batman doesn't turn to stone every morning and then explode out of stone every night.
--Gargoyles do.

--Batman doesn't have a dog.
--Gargoyles have Bronx.

--Bruce Wayne has nearly unlimited wealth to subsidize his heroics with technology.
--Xanatos has nearly unlimited wealth to subsidize his villainy with technology. The gargoyles have a medium-sized t.v. set and a used barca-lounger.

--The Batcave is a high-tech top secret location located underneath stately Wayne Manor.
--The clock tower is a low-tech place to hide above the police precint in Manhattan.

--Batman has a butler.
--The gargoyles don't.

I hope this is helpful. Though I don't know why it would be.

As you can see, I didn't take the assignment too seriously. The only real key point for me is the first one. The differences between the tragedies and the heroes' reactions to those tragedies. Also that Xanatos is the anti-Bruce Wayne. But c'mon... "Batman has a butler. The Gargoyles don't". Was I stretching or what?

[psychic_therapy]

Somehow I just think the 80s ruled:

Transformers
GI Joe
Thundercats
Robotech/Macross
Voltron
etc...

[Toonimator]

Disney's answer to Batman? Not in the slightest.

Greg Weisman even wrote up this little ramble on the subject:
Er, that write-up is more about how it shouldn't be looked at as a rip-off, it seems, with all the point-for-point comparisons.

But Gargoyles was CLEARLY a "Hey, we can do a 'darkish' superhero-y action show, it doesn't all have to be ducks & pratfalls!" series. I love Duck Tales, Darkwing Duck, all that Disney Afternoon stuff... but I doubt Gargoyles would've been possible without B:TAS' success. That's not to say it's a rip-off, it's just a result. And it was GREAT until they moved it to ABC Saturdays and totally destroyed it with the Goliath Chronicles. So, not a rip-off, but it WAS DIsney's answer to Batman, in terms of audience & overall tone compared to most of what was out at that time.

Just like Marvel's Spidey & X-Men cartoons were their answers to Batman (and ugly answers they were!). I can't recall if they really had the mission statement to include contemporary costumes & storylines compared to Bats' more 'reimagined, the spirit of the thing' stories & characterization & noir/art-deco setting, or if that was just the impression going around some places... but it did seem like Marvel was saying "Hey! Our stuff looks like the comics out right now, only crappier... c'mon, kids, watch! We've got TWO shows! Our Distinguished Competition only has ONE!"

[Darrell D.]

Just like Marvel's Spidey & X-Men cartoons were their answers to Batman (and ugly answers they were!). I can't recall if they really had the mission statement to include contemporary costumes & storylines compared to Bats' more 'reimagined, the spirit of the thing' stories & characterization & noir/art-deco setting, or if that was just the impression going around some places... but it did seem like Marvel was saying "Hey! Our stuff looks like the comics out right now, only crappier... c'mon, kids, watch! We've got TWO shows! Our Distinguished Competition only has ONE!"

I would have to agree with this. But, Spider-man was a better show than X-men, but that's really like saying one pile of crap stinks less than another.
Horrible voice-acting, ridiculously bad dialog..here's a tip, animation guys, just because you're adapting a comic story from 15 or 20 years ago, you don't have to use the dialog from it. In fact, I would prefer if you didn't. The voice actors had to be laughing inside delivering those gems.

[Agent Helix]

I love how ridiculously self-fellating that awful writeup of Gargoyles vs. Batman is.

"Oh see, Batman is about this guy that dresses like a bat. Gargoyles is about these INCREDIBLY RICH CHARACTERS AND THEIR INCREDIBLY RICH WORLD AND OM NOM NOM I WISH I COULD EAT MYSELF ALL UP!"

[Jared]

I love how ridiculously self-fellating that awful writeup of Gargoyles vs. Batman is.

"Oh see, Batman is about this guy that dresses like a bat. Gargoyles is about these INCREDIBLY RICH CHARACTERS AND THEIR INCREDIBLY RICH WORLD AND OM NOM NOM I WISH I COULD EAT MYSELF ALL UP!"

Well it's a letter meant to play up the show for the suits. You can't expect him to say "Batman is a pop culture icon, Gargoyles is some monster guys with wings."

[Toonimator]

Oh, don't mind Helix. He's full of hate, and likes to spew his venom without reading things thoroughly.

But buy him a beer and he's your snuggy-bear for the evening. :biggrin:

[ViciousX]

Somehow I just think the 80s ruled:

Transformers
GI Joe
Thundercats
Robotech/Macross
Voltron
etc...

Really? 80s cartoons were mostly, in my mind, nothing more than blatant toy commercials. GI Joe was a bit of an abomination.

[Toonimator]

The best that can be said for many 80s cartoons is they had fun concepts (I still love Transformers & Thundercats & He-Man, as concepts) and occasionally some good stories would slip through. For GIJoe, the "There's No Place Like Springfield" is one, and the one where some Joes wind up in an alternate world and Steeler decides to stay behind... I haven't watched 'em entirely in many, many years, but they remain a couple of the best in my mind from the series, and from most 80s cartoons.

Still, the crap was overwhelming in the 80s. Rubik the Amazing Cube! The Gary Coleman Show! It's Punky Brewster!

[RonnieThunderbolts]

Gargoyles is in no way a redo of Batman. That is totally preposterous. The similarities in Gargoyles to Batman are less in number than that of Gargoyles to any number of Shakespeare's work. It is one of the best animate shows that has ever been aired, and while it share thematically and stylistically with several other shows and animated features, none of that takes away from its unique voice or originality.

Also, Gummi Bears was freaking awesome. It was pretty similar to the Gummi Bears as well. They are unsung/unappreciated protectors, urban/medieval legends, and believed they were the last of their kind for the first portion of the show. Both really good.

[Agent Helix]

Oh, don't mind Helix. He's full of hate, and likes to spew his venom without reading things thoroughly.

But buy him a beer and he's your snuggy-bear for the evening. :biggrin:

I'm full of love and charm and wit and you know it.

[TROUBLEZ]

I was gonna mention the 80s but in variety AND quality, yeah the 90s was good.

Animaniacs was great, Tiny Toons, much of Fox, Disney afternoon.

I thought the Spider-man cartoons were pretty good too. Actually had continuity.

[Pól Rua]

Gargoyles is in no way a redo of Batman. That is totally preposterous. The similarities in Gargoyles to Batman are less in number than that of Gargoyles to any number of Shakespeare's work. It is one of the best animate shows that has ever been aired, and while it share thematically and stylistically with several other shows and animated features, none of that takes away from its unique voice or originality.

Warner Brothers made a cartoon with a more mature approach to story and character, using a darker palette and animation based on the old Fleisher Brothers Superman shorts from the 40's.
Then Disney did exactly the same thing.

I'm not saying they're exactly the same cartoon, but unless Batman: The Animated Series had been created, aired and succeeded, there is no way Disney would have green-lit Gargoyles, hoping to get some of that success for themselves.
One was a deliberate response to the success of the other.

[Acecool]

God, not even close. Sorry, but "The Flinstones" was horrid, no matter how much people try to argue. "The Simpsons" created its ow legacy of original characters and world famous episodes.

I don't like the flintstones either. I didn't like them as a kid, I don't like them now. The jokes aren't funny and I can't think of a time when they really would be. Puns are punishing humor. They hurt so much to hear.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

Warner Brothers made a cartoon with a more mature approach to story and character, using a darker palette and animation based on the old Fleisher Brothers Superman shorts from the 40's.
Then Disney did exactly the same thing.

I'm not saying they're exactly the same cartoon, but unless Batman: The Animated Series had been created, aired and succeeded, there is no way Disney would have green-lit Gargoyles, hoping to get some of that success for themselves.
One was a deliberate response to the success of the other.

That doesn't make it an imitation, or unoriginal in any way. I don't disagree that the success of Batman paved the way for Gargoyles, but that isn't the same thing as being "pretty much Batman." The Fantastic Four was made in response to the Justice League comic, but they aren't the same thing.

[Tazirai]

The 90's no, but they extended the Golden age started in the 80's.
The current 80's cartoon/toy revival is testament to that.

[Pól Rua]

That doesn't make it an imitation, or unoriginal in any way. I don't disagree that the success of Batman paved the way for Gargoyles, but that isn't the same thing as being "pretty much Batman." The Fantastic Four was made in response to the Justice League comic, but they aren't the same thing.

No, the Fantastic Four is what you get when you overlay the Justice League on top of the Challengers of the Unknown.

The Batman was an urban noir cartoon with a dark palette, more mature storytelling approach, dark palette and a art deco-infused style derived from the Max Fleisher Superman shorts.
So was Gargoyles.
Add to the fact that both series feature urban crimefighters with pointy ears and a scalloped, winglike silhouette, and, well...

Of course, there are going to be differences, but saying that there aren't any similarities is being more than a little naive.
Also, it's important to note that this isn't a comment on quality. From what I've seen, 'Gargoyles' was quite a decent series. But it was hardly original.

[J. Robb]

The golden age of cartoons is whenever you were a little kid.

[ViciousX]

No, the Fantastic Four is what you get when you overlay the Justice League on top of the Challengers of the Unknown.

The Batman was an urban noir cartoon with a dark palette, more mature storytelling approach, dark palette and a art deco-infused style derived from the Max Fleisher Superman shorts.
So was Gargoyles.
Add to the fact that both series feature urban crimefighters with pointy ears and a scalloped, winglike silhouette, and, well...

Of course, there are going to be differences, but saying that there aren't any similarities is being more than a little naive.
Also, it's important to note that this isn't a comment on quality. From what I've seen, 'Gargoyles' was quite a decent series. But it was hardly original.

Speaking as someone who knows people that were involved with the production of both shows, they were very different series.

Just for the record, production on "Gargoyles" began in 1991. At least a year before "Batman" got on the air. "Batman's" success made Disney more confident with going ahead with "Gargoyles"

"Gargoyles" didn't go for an art-deco and dark palette... hell, it had a very colorful palette.

Batman tended to go for mini-movies. For the most part, you could watch that series in just about any order. Which is fine, perfectly cool. "Gargoyles" went more towards becoming this epic saga, where the episodes had to be viewed in a certain order. "Gargoyles" had the characters develop grow and change over time. By episode 65, they were different then they were in episode 1. "Batman" didn't do that.

I love both shows, I am a fan of both. But they were very different shows.