Who is the most under used or poorly used Batman villain?

[Dark Master]

In your opinion, which of Batman's Rouges Gallery is the most under used or poorly used? Which one has so far untapped potential? And if you were a writer, how would you remedy it?

[theNighteye]

mad hatter. he is really smart.

http://www.imrambling.com

[4thHorseman]

Oh man, there's so many options here. Mad Hatter is a freaking genius, Mr. Zsasz is psycho and bloodthirsty, and Firefly who would love nothing more than to see Gotham burn in the fiery beauty.

[nepenthes]

I wish they'd make Killer Croc a boss again. He should've have been in the Black Mask's place, except not dead

just for laughs, Crazy Quilt. his powers aren't actually that silly and I read a Moench Colan issue where he was pretty creepy/psycho/funny trying to kill Robin

[Lew Moxon]

I would make the case that
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f366/Summerleaigh/HarleyQuinnJoker.jpg
could be used better.

[Chiroptera]

I hoenstly miss the days when the Rogue's Gallery was just that, his gallery. Less random new villains like Hush, The Black Glove, Dr. Hurt and what not and more skillful use of Batman's classic foes.

So for this query I'll propose:

Batman's entire Rogue's Gallery could be used better.

[civil twilight 33]

the joker. with the exception of killing joke and dark knight. long halloween made him inhuman. partially tim sale's fault though--his teeth were bigger than his head.

[XPac]

I'd say Bane.

Here's a guy that shows up, having figured out Bruce's identity before breaking him.

But he's so watered down now... hell, half the time the writers aren't even sure whether he's a hero or villain or not.

[drupgyu]

Penguin could be used better...and Mad Hatter

[Crimson Knightman]

http://members.aol.com/whoclix/freeze.gif

[dragonbat]

Cornelius Stirk. I think his last appearance was in 1998. I prefer him insane but intelligent. (In Knightfall, he got dumbed down quite a bit. Brighter than Gollum, but the way he was written reminded me a bit of Tolkien's creation.)

[Retro315]

I don't think it's that the villains are "used wrong" in modern days. It's really not that. Look, most of us have determined that we like Penguin as a crooked businessman, Riddler in his new shady private eye gimmick, Catwoman as a klepto with anti-hero tendencies ... Ivy as an eco-terrorist ... Croc as the "gator in the sewers" (although he does need to get back some of his intelligence) ... Joker as the "arch-nemesis who lives for being an arch-nemesis" ... etc ...

And lately the problems of "how do we make Two-Face work?" have resulted in Harvey filling a new niche, and gaining interest.

The problem is not so much that they are used wrong (what niche they fill) ... the problem is dull storytelling and hackneyed plots.

Now that being said, I do think a few of them are under-used compared to the over-used. Mad Hatter is a good call. Guy's origin story places him as practically a rapist. Mind control? Obsession with his "Alice"? Also, who is a young girl, in theory? They could get pretty psychological in a Hatter story before they ever get into the whole "Batman brainwashed" angle. (I dug the appropriateness of the gang that Dini gave Hatter, but the story was still pretty cartoony - how about bringing the whole Wonderland Gang back in a thriller story?)

And I'd also like to see, a year, maybe two years, maybe even three down the road ... that this ENTIRE time Riddler has been committing crime, and Batman never found any evidence. And then some clever writer goes back throughout all the OYL Riddler appearances and points out clues and we all slap ourselves on the heads at how clever Riddler (and that writer) have played it.

[Seraku]

Bane has been severely downgraded and underused

[scary harpy]

In your opinion, which of Batman's Rouges Gallery is the most under used or poorly used? Which one has so far untapped potential? And if you were a writer, how would you remedy it?

Wow. what a question.

Not including mobsters and plainclothes criminals, Batman has over 400 enemies. Almost all are under-used or poorly used; I would say about ¼ have untapped potential.

I would publish about 3 Batman titles bi-weekly. With 3 titles and 26 issues a year, we would 78 issues annually to read about our favorite heroes and one-quarter of his rogue's gallery.

[scary harpy]

I don't think it's that the villains are "used wrong" in modern days. It's really not that. Look, most of us have determined that we like Penguin as a crooked businessman, Riddler in his new shady private eye gimmick, Catwoman as a klepto with anti-hero tendencies ... Ivy as an eco-terrorist ...

And lately the problems of "how do we make Two-Face work?" have resulted in Harvey filling a new niche, and gaining interest.

The problem is not so much that they are used wrong (what niche they fill) ... the problem is dull storytelling and hackneyed plots.



I would prefer to see Penguin to be a Fagin-like character and run a crime school.

I think Catwoman is more a pathological thief or a thrillseeker than a kleptomaniac.

What's Harvery's new niche?

I agree with you about the bad stories and the Mad Hatter.

[rwe1138]

I demand more Humpty Dumpty!

[smoothjokes]

I think the whole gallery isn't used well at all except for the Joker recently in Batman R.I.P. but I still don't like a raving-mad lunatic Joker, I like the Joker in The Dark Knight, he's calculating but still crazy. I like that.

[the goddamn batman]

I don't mind Dini's current use of Riddler, but in general? Riddler. He's both underused and has untapped potential.

I think though, that the real problem is that he's a hard character to write. I think he should be at least as smart as Batman, if not a bit smarter. But how do you properly write that without just downplaying Batman's intelligence?

[Chad]

I wish they'd make Killer Croc a boss again. He should've have been in the Black Mask's place, except not dead

Croc was my first thought as well. I don't know if many fans realise this, but Killer Croc was introduced as a tactical genius who lost control of Gotham's underworld only after Batman and his entire Rogues Gallery brought him down.
At some point however, it was decided that Batman didn't have enough C grade villains and so Croc was demoted.

For all the credit that's given to DC for "returning Batman to his roots" every so often, no one's ever thought of taking the same approach with his enemies. Is there really an unlimited number of stories involving Killer Croc's love of eating people who stumble upon his underground hideout still waiting to be told?

You can actually create a list of poorly used villains by compiling a chronological record of every "Anti-Batman" introduced over the past 20/25 years:

KGBeast was Batman's equal in every respect, until Chuck Dixon decided to create his own Anti-Batman. So that his creation would shine, Dixon made sure to present the Beast as an inept C grade villain just in time for...

Bane to enter the picture. Bane never hit the lows that the KGBeast did, but by disappearing from the scene for awhile, he allowed...

Prometheus to fill the void. Unfortunately for him, it was decided that Batman should have a different doppleganger so...

Hush showed up. To remove all doubt that Hush wasn't Batman's equal, Hush was allowed to absorb Prometheus' reputation by making him his side-kick in Gotham Knights.

I don't follow the titles that much nowadays, but if history continues to repeat itself and this pattern continues, we should expect to see Jason Todd either beat Hush senseless or make him his side-kick within the next year or so.

[Lew Moxon]

I think the whole gallery isn't used well at all except for the Joker recently in Batman R.I.P. but I still don't like a raving-mad lunatic Joker, I like the Joker in The Dark Knight, he's calculating but still crazy. I like that.

I couldn't agree more. In fact, I'll go a step further, and say I love that. In fact, I love calculating villains in general.

Ever since I read Othello I've loved Iago.

[Jody Garland]

Chad, excellent post, but you forgot one villain: The original Anti-Batman, the Wraith. He predates KGBeast. He appeared in a single, well remembered comic than disappeared for over two decades, until returning this year in Batman Confidential.

[Sean Walsh]

I say "Kite-Man" and demand that the thread end immediately. :tongue:

[Chad]

Chad, excellent post, but you forgot one villain: The original Anti-Batman, the Wraith.

I left him off my list because I can't really blame DC for under-using a character who died at the end of his first appearance.

I would argue that although The Wraith may have been the best Anti-Batman there was, he wasn't the first. Killer Moth was introduced as a bored, millionaire who chose to take over the underworld. He copied Batman gadget-for-gadget; idea-for-idea; and even kidnapped Bruce Wayne and stole his identity by no less of a means than having a plastic surgeon give him his features. He discovered Batman's identity and was on the verge of accomplishing everything he had set out to do when he was gunned down and left for dead.

Like Croc however, the development of his character - from a common criminal who overcame a series of obstacles to become a serious enemy of Batman's - was halted and instead of taking inspiration from his history, writers today seem content simply to take their inspiration solely from his name. "His name is Killer Moth? OK then, let's make him a big moth". Truth be told however, Killer Moth hasn't been used properly since the 50's so this isn't a new development.

[Wenatchee the Hatchet]

goddamn batman, I think the solution for Riddler along the lines you propose is that he and Batman may be equal in intelligence, (or Riddler slightly superior, perhaps) but that HOW they think is very different. Batman seems very methodical and logical. Riddler, ideally, should be someone smart enough to think in a straight line and get from A to Z but who prefers to not waste time going through all that. I'd heard that an author varied his approach to riddles so that riddles were leading people into traps to position them for harm rather than just leaving clues to the crimes. Have the puzzles be more purely literary just to mess with Batman. Best take I saw on the riddles was in Riddler's Reform where the answer only makes sense if it's not taken literally but as a clue to another clue.

I like what Dini has been doing with Riddler lately but I think that even as a villain Riddler has been drastically under-used and people haven't been as inventive as they could be with him.

I think my beef with how Two-Face has tended to be used is that too much faddish devotion to duality is employed rather than seeing Harvey as one severely messed up, actually unified personality. That was a direction The Dark Knight took that I thought was potentially interesting.

[nepenthes]

I think Catwoman is more a pathological thief or a thrillseeker than a kleptomaniac.

what do you think a kelptomiac is? :wink:


Bane has been severely downgraded and underused

Bane! damn he's he's been shafted.

Make him the military dictator of Santa Prisca, keeping the militias, factions and cartels in order, trying to improve his country, a more pragmatic and ballsier reflection of Batman if Bruce dared to take total control over Gotham and make his city right. They're allies and kindred spirits more than enemies, but Bane laughs at Batmans spinless and sneaking in the shadows approach.


don't know if many fans realise this, but Killer Croc was introduced as a tactical genius who lost control of Gotham's underworld only after Batman and his entire Rogues Gallery brought him down.

yes! now that's he's no longer a talking dinosaur either someone really needs to do him right again. a writer could actually make a name for himself here


Nocturna should come back. there's just something really cool about her concept, pale jewelled woman of the inky night, almost feels slightly mystical.

[The Joker]

Penguin, and Clayface come to mind.

Though recently Penguin's had a chance to shine which for me hasnt occured since the days of "No Man's Land".

[Crimson Knightman]

http://photos12.flickr.com/15819776_50a2e118fb_m.jpg

[robbieglenn]

Id going for Bane and Killer Croc. So much potential but like others have said, totally watered down.

[JCAll]

All of them. All of Batman's villains seem to be under the direct supervision of people that hate them.

Joker is gone. He usd to be crazy and random, now he just shoots people and laughs. The Joker has ben turned into a random THUG! That sympothetic streak they tried to add to Mr. Freeze after the cartoon has run out. People don't even know if Bane is smart or stupid anymore. Sometimes he's still brilliant, other times he's a drooling mess. Riddler was so far gone Dini had to turnhim into a good guy, probably so save him from becomming Crisis fodder. Mad Hater serves no purpose now but to be beat up by random people.

And that's just the big guys. Little guys like Kiteman, who died in the background the last 2 times I've seen him, and the Ten-Eyed Man, who Morrison decided to change from a campy loser to a generic thug, are always on the short end of the stick.

Hell, the only 2 that are really doing well right now are Penguin and Bat-Mite, who managed to finally break back into canon. And Riddler too, if you still count him as a villain.

[Lester C.]

Joker. He either is used wrong or only shows up after the big event to let everyone know how important he was off panel.

[AdamYJ]

Mad Hatter's a good choice.

Though, the first one that comes into my mind is . . . . Clue-Master. In his first appearance he was among Batman's most ambitious enemies. While Riddler was busy stressing over his "riddle-compulsion", Arthur Brown decided that he was going to find out who Batman was right off the bat. And he got really close too. But, I guess people thought his sharing a niche with Nigma was too much. So, first they sent him away to prison for ages. Then they took away his clue gimmick (making him just "Arthur Brown in a funny suit" rather than "The Clue-Master"). Then they brought in the abusive, deadbeat dad stuff, making his story more about Spoiler than him. I mean, it was nice they were using him, but he wasn't really being the Clue-Master as much as just another lowbrow crook. Then they sent him away with the Suicide Squad and had him come back scarred, I think.

Now, I don't know if he's still around. At this point though, I'm not sure what path would be best for him. I suppose he could just go back to crim, now that Nigma's gone straight and they won't be competing for the same niche. Or, maybe he should just get an offer from Riddler to join his agency.

[321xletsxjam]

i agree with the mad hatter consensus.

[josh straightedge]

Mad Hatter, Croc and maybe Prometheus.

[Hatut Zeraze]

I'll say the Mad Monk.

[lewismark]

with no doubt , its bane.....
=======================
Lewismark

texas investment properties (http://www.ascotmortgage.com:) Car Transport (http://www.nationaltransportllc.com)

[Sizzle]

Bane. As much as I really like the Secret Six, he's no joiner. He is of the belief that his is a greater destiny. He is a leader, not a follower.

Reaper. Even if the Year Two is not in continuity, make a new Reaper. There is a great villian waiting to happen.

Phantasm. Why not bring her into the mainstream DCU? Does not need to be as closely tied to Batman's origin as Mask of the Phantasm though.

[rZi]

Man-Bat

Mad Hatter

Hush

[Retro315]

What's Harvery's new niche?

Harvey's new niche seems to be half redemption-seeker, half-vigilante ... as opposed to being played as a schizophrenic crime-lord. After all ... stone-cold killer or not, what crew is going to follow the organizational skills of a split personality? Even if half of him knows the ins and outs of organized crime ...

I mean, he's still fully capable of hiring goons for muscle ... who isn't? But he's not making power plays for territory or monetary gain anymore ... he seems to either be trying to right wrongs or to wrong rights at any given time ...

Harvey's got anti-hero written all over him lately. Which is kind of an interesting place to be, considering that Batman himself is leaning toward the anti-hero gray scale ... who's more of an anti-hero? The guy who is gray? Or the guy who is half black and half white?

... in fact ... if DC is wondering what to do with Harvey after The Great Leap ... he could use a solo miniseries where he deals with some things in drastically juxtaposed ways ... and solidifies his new status quo before throwing him back into the fray in Gotham for whatever reason (which had better be good).

[Chad]

Man-Bat

Man, this is not going to find a lot of support, but here goes...

Scott Beatty used Kirk Langstrom in his Gotham Knights run and threw an interesting little concept into his character - that at some point in the past, Batman told Langstrom he was Bruce Wayne.

I KNOW that there are about 600 people who already know Batman's identity, and I KNOW that that list should be getting shorter and not longer, but this was a perfect example of a writer looking at two character's established history together and reaching a logical conclusion about where that relationship would have to proceed if you're being fair to who they are.

After years of having Langstrom show up at Wayne Manor pleading with Wayne to get in touch with Batman because he has moments to live, it makes sense to accept that at some point, Batman would have said to himself "It is completely irresponsible for me to waste valuable time by sneaking out as Bruce, changing into Batman, running around the side of the house, and then coming in through the front door to safeguard my identity when every second counts. Especially when I've asked Kirk to place his life in my hands". Batman would not play games when someone's life is on the line - especially a friend's.

That is something I liked about Beatty's run - he seemed to take a step back from the characters and let them write themselves. For example, with Bane he considered the fact that he was one of Batman's most dangerous foes. He also took into account the fact that really no prison could hold him. How would Batman reconcile these two facts? Beatty came up with a relationship in which Batman allowed Bane his freedom but let him know that he could rescind it at any time. Having beaten him in the past, Bane knew that this wasn't an idle threat and so consented to obeying Batman's rules - he could do whatever he wanted with his life (I believe at the time it was destroying Lazarus pits) but if he ever killed, ever tried to claim power anywhere, Batman would bring him down.

I guess some people might think that this would constitute poor characterization - "Bane would never agree to be anyone's errand boy" - but seeing as how Beatty established that only Batman would have this control over him, I thought it was really well thought out. Bane would operate with a certain honour and having been beaten by Batman in the past and knowing that he simply wasn't capable of defeating him again at this time, would begrudgingly follow his orders - a reversal of Bane telling Batman "I could destroy you right now, but I won't because I've already proven myself" during Knightfall.

[kalika]

After years of having Langstrom show up at Wayne Manor pleading with Wayne to get in touch with Batman because he has moments to live, it makes sense to accept that at some point, Batman would have said to himself "It is completely irresponsible for me to waste valuable time by sneaking out as Bruce, changing into Batman, running around the side of the house, and then coming in through the front door to safeguard my identity when every second counts. Especially when I've asked Kirk to place his life in my hands". Batman would not play games when someone's life is on the line - especially a friend's.

hilarious imagery. i'm still snickering. thanks for that. :tongue:

[Chad]

hilarious imagery. i'm still snickering. thanks for that. :tongue:

Then you should also try picturing Batman walking up to Langstrom as he's shouting towards the front door "What's that Bruce? You have to go to the store? Buy some groceries? OK, then, see you later!"

[the-wolf]

I agree with Bane Mr. Zsasz.

Bane had a lot of work put into his character initially and it was good work. It made sure to highlight his intelligence. Now, he's a goof.

Mr. Zsasz, to me, represents Batman's most realistic foe. The guy is frightening. If he were an Alex Cross (James Patterson) character people would be the guy would be infamous. So much creepy potential there.

Also: King Snake. Not sure what his fate is now, but I never cared for how easily Batman kicked his butt. Not saying Bats shouldn't have won, but it could've been a closer contest. I just think that the idea of a global-spanning criminal kingpin, who runs one of the largest organized street gangs on the planet and who has ties to the legit business world, could've been made into a cool villain rather than a laughing stock.

[the-wolf]

Reaper. Even if the Year Two is not in continuity, make a new Reaper. There is a great villian waiting to happen.

.

Yes. Bang-on. I've always wanted to see a cool new Reaper. Such a great motif.

[smithson]

First, a disclosure: Batman can't really stomach environmentally irresponsible food products and rarely drinks anything made without distilled water. But he isn't too keen on the taste of your typical eco-friendly soy products, so consider him a neutral arbiter when it's concluded that soy is the somewhat more eco-conscious choice.
================================
smithson
Car Transport (http://www.nationaltransportllc.com)

[foxley]

I'd love to see the Cavalier used properly. Not as a joke, but as a debonair master criminal.

He is a criminal genius who views his crimes as a battle of wits with Batman. He has a code of honour that he adheres to rigorously. He steals mostly for the fun of it, primarily to get items for his personal collection that he cannot get any other way. And in his other identity, he is the bored playboy that Bruce Wayne only pretends to be. Tell me, there are interesting stories to be told with this character.

Oh, and note to writers who want to use this character: the Cavalier is not insane and does not belong in Arkham.

[the-wolf]

Damn. You're right. Not only is he an "anti-Batman," but also an anti-Bruce Wayne. Great character potential.

[nepenthes]

I'd love to see the Cavalier used properly. Not as a joke, but as a debonair master criminal.

He is a criminal genius who views his crimes as a battle of wits with Batman. He has a code of honour that he adheres to rigorously. He steals mostly for the fun of it, primarily to get items for his personal collection that he cannot get any other way. And in his other identity, he is the bored playboy that Bruce Wayne only pretends to be. Tell me, there are interesting stories to be told with this character.

Oh, and note to writers who want to use this character: the Cavalier is not insane and does not belong in Arkham.

have you read the LotDk arc Blades? it features the Cavalier and it's a great story, he's very well done, charming even, but hardly in the way you describe him. you might find it interesting it's in the Collected LotDK tpb.

[foxley]

have you read the LotDk arc Blades? it features the Cavalier and it's a great story, he's very well done, charming even, but hardly in the way you describe him. you might find it interesting it's in the Collected LotDK tpb.

Read it and enjoyed it. But that is not the original Cavalier. While Hudson Pyle was an interesting character, I'm convinced there are good stories to be told about Mortimer Drake. Stories that don't treat him as a joke or as mere cannon fodder in a gathering of all the Bat-foes.

[scary harpy]

Anarky
Bag O' Bones (One Man Meltdown)
Batzarro
Calendar Girl
Captain Fear
Captain Stingaree
Cavalier
Clayface
Clayface III
Cluemaster
Colonel Sulphur
Corrosive Man
Crazy Quilt 2
Curare
Doctor Double X
Doctor Phosphorus
Doodlebug
Dr. Faustus (from Showcase 93)
Egghead
Fay Gunn; Ma Gunn
Great White Shark
Humpty Dumpty
Inque
Jane Doe
Jolly Roger
Junkyard Dog
Kadaver, Mortimer
KGBeast
Killer Moth
Lady Clay (Clayface IV)
Lazara
Ma Parker / Ma Mayhem
Mad Hatter
Magpie
Mister Esper
Moriarty
Nocturna
Orca
Pix
Professor Radium
Queen of Hearts
Roxy Rocket
Royal Flush Gang
Signalman / The Blue Bowman
Silken Spider
Simple Simon
Spellbinder III (Lady Spellbinder)
Sterling Silversmith
Styx
Sugar and Spice
Sweet Tooth
Tally Man
Temblor
The Ancient Mariner
The Answer
The Atomic-Man
The Black Spider
The Bookworm
The Candyman
The Electrocutioner
The Eraser (Fiasco)
The Firebug
The Fox, the Shark, the Vulture (the Terrible Trio)
The Getaway Genius
The Kite-Man (Charles "Chuck" Brown)
The Maestro
The Mannequin
The Mime
The Monarch of Menace
The Phantasm
The Reaper
The Robber Baron
The Robin Gang
The Scarab
The Sheikh
The Siren
The Spook
The Ten-Eyed Men
The Thief of the Night
The Trigger Twins
The Wrath
The Zebra-Man
Tiger Shark
Toymaker (Cosmo Krank)
Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum

This is a list of my favorite under-used or mis-used bat-villains.

I'd love to see Curare, Egghead and Sweet Tooth introduced to the comics. A great Silken Spider story would unexpected. The Mad Hatter in the Secret 6 was truly spectacular.

[Alan2099]

I strongly second (or 3rd or Fifteeth or whatever) Bane, Joker, and especially the Mad Hatter. I never understood why they carried over Harley Quinn and Mr. Freeze's new origin from the cartoons but left Mad Hatter alone.

Also, Promethius is really one that should be doing a lot more than he does. While other people have done the anti-Batman thing, Promethius seemed to take a different path with it. Most did the anti-Batman as a dark and brooding vigilante type. Promethius went anti-Batman as the guy that did and knew absolutley everything. The kind of Batman that built ways to take out Superman and monitor all the heroes secretly and stuff. The bigger picture Bat-god type of character. Frankly, he's one character I don't think Batman should ever be able to actually beat in a straight fight.