Batman 680 **Spoliers**

[dreyga2000]

http://www.dccomics.com/media/excerpts/9922_x.pdf

So this all one twisted game for the Black Glove....

In retrospect, the Black Gloves plan seems pretty obvious taking in account their acitons in the Club of Heroes and the mention of that movie synopsis in part of R.I.P.

[HopeLantern]

Wow... this is getting creepier and creepier...

[IvCNuB4]

Is the chick in the wheelchair supposed to be Oracle ,or just some random girl ?

[dreyga2000]

Is the chick in the wheelchair supposed to be Oracle ,or just some random girl ?

Jezebel Jet....

[Cytokinesis]

Is the chick in the wheelchair supposed to be Oracle ,or just some random girl ?

Its Jet I think.

This is getting my really pumped up for the final.

[Vidocq]

Is it me or those the Black Glove Members have Guild of Calamidus intent Vibe.

[Retro315]

Hmm ...

I think Le Bossu's over-obsessive fan-boy infatuation with the Joker is going to result in Nightwing saving the damn day.

Or at least getting there in time to see Batman do something drastic ...

[PatchMadripoor]

Hmm ...

I think Le Bossu's over-obsessive fan-boy infatuation with the Joker is going to result in Nightwing saving the damn day.

Or at least getting there in time to see Batman do something drastic ...

No, he turned his back on the Joker. NEVER turn your back on the Joker, especially this version of him who could do anything. Le Bossu is done for, for his own underestimation of what they are letting loose to go out and play.

Joker plays by his own rules and no one else's.

[Crimson Knightman]

I have to give Grant Morrison credit, he knows how to up the ante.

[nepenthes]

The party guests are an interesting twist - so the Black Glove's reach extends farther than we knew.

Also consider that all those guests are going to see Batman die in Bruce Waynes house :eek:.....his identity is blown to bits now, right? i wonder what the plan is for Nightwing and what they've done to the Commisioner

No, he turned his back on the Joker. NEVER turn your back on the Joker, especially this version of him who could do anything. Le Bossu is done for, for his own underestimation of what they are letting loose to go out and play.

Joker plays by his own rules and no one else's.

I thought the same thing.


Joker looked great that panel btw.

[HaroldAllnut]

I'm surprised no one's commented on Le Bossu's nakedness. I didn't think DC would let that fly. Impressive.

[Retro315]

Oh yeah, Le Bossu is as good as gone.

But still ... being naive enough to try to butter up the Joker and getting killed by a clown, he still ain't gonna do much lobotomizing.

My only question now is ... Nightwing vs. Scorpiana ... does Dick just incapacitate her and then head for the Danse Macabre ... or does Dick put the moves on her first?

[Super Buddies Forever]

I love the David Bowie Joker.

[Spiffy]

The party guests are an interesting twist - so the Black Glove's reach extends farther than we knew.

Also consider that all those guests are going to see Batman die in Bruce Waynes house :eek:.....his identity is blown to bits now, right?
For all my other problems with R.I.P., this is probably the only part I'd guessed and yet still looked forward to. There's NO reasonable way there's any secret identity after this.

[the goddamn batman]

Huh... the Black Glove kinda reminds me of The Secret Cinema... Cavsanova v.2...

[HopeLantern]

:confused: Okay, I only got into Batman at the beginning of Grant's run... so does Joker know Batman's (and by virtue of that, Nightwing and Robin's) identity now?

[Red_Knight]

For all my other problems with R.I.P., this is probably the only part I'd guessed and yet still looked forward to. There's NO reasonable way there's any secret identity after this.

Realistically, no. In comic book terms, though? Sure. Who discovered Batman's i.d. in R.I.P.? I can think of Dr. Hurt, the COV, the party guests, and the mysterious head of the Black Glove.

I think it's safe to assume that the members of the COV will all be dead, comatose, or otherwise incapacitated after R.I.P. The characters are kind of neat, but I can't see them lasting under the circumstances.

The party guests may well suffer the same fate. Bats wouldn't kill them, I guess, but we do have the horror-movie version of the Joker to reckon with. I think we can all agree that he won't appreciate being used as a chess piece.

Having Batman's i.d. revealed could be neat, but it certainly can be salvaged if DC desires.

[Spiffy]

Well, I also hope that if they go that route, that they have the balls for the full follow through. Because unless most of the people in the DCU are idiots, if you know who Batman is, its not much of a leap to know who Nightwing and Robin are. So... if they dare... its probably the Full Monty for most of the Bat Crew.

[JoshuaCee]

Preview looks good. How many parts to this story, again? And does anyone have any guesses as the identity of the Black Glove?

[Mia]

Jezebel Jet....

You know I really am disapointed by this. I was hoping that Jet would be on the side of the villains. With all of her nagging to Bruce about quitting being Batman.

On a side note, I can't stand Alex Ross's Batman. Can't he find a body builder who eats clean to pose for his pictures? That Batman he has looks like he could loose 30lbs.

[Spiffy]

You know I really am disapointed by this. I was hoping that Jet would be on the side of the villains.
Who's to say she still isn't? Sure, a ball gag seems like it would be pretty uncomfortable, but if you are a really super-evil type perhaps that wouldn't be too high a price to pay to help set a trap.

[ASM78]

I think it is obvious how DC will handle everyone knowing Bruce Wayne is Batman......in several months Mephisto will appear and make a deal and.....oh wait...what title is this?

[Brack360]

Also consider that all those guests are going to see Batman die in Bruce Waynes house :eek:.....his identity is blown to bits now, right?

The party is at Arkham Asylum, not Wayne Manor.

[stillanerd]

You know I really am disapointed by this. I was hoping that Jet would be on the side of the villains. With all of her nagging to Bruce about quitting being Batman.

Actually She is. Her being the "victim" is all part of an act put on by the Club of Villains.

[ShaggyB]

Actually She is. Her being the "victim" is all part of an act put on by the Club of Villains.

true... yet im still not liking this arc.

[vickvega]

DAMN!!!!!!! :eek: Issue #680 was ****ing incredible! I admit i didnt see the set up coming. I think Grant Morrison's run will go down as one of the best Batman runs ever. All of the naysayers should really check this issue out. Ive been following this run since Morrison began and Im completely satisfied, and overwhelmed by the superb writing. Tony Daniels art was excellent, and the Alex Ross covers have kicked ass. I love David Bowie Joker.I cannot wait to get my hands on issue #681-BUY THIS ISSUE!

[ASM78]

DAMN!!!!!!! :eek: Issue #680 was ****ing incredible! I admit i didnt see the set up coming. I think Grant Morrison's run will go down as one of the best Batman runs ever. All of the naysayers should really check this issue out. Ive been following this run since Morrison began and Im completely satisfied, and overwhelmed by the superb writing. Tony Daniels art was excellent, and the Alex Ross covers have kicked ass. I love David Bowie Joker.I cannot wait to get my hands on issue #681-BUY THIS ISSUE!

The only part of this I can agree with is Daniel's art. Ross's covers make Batman look fat and as for Morrison's writing....meh. This whole series is still a big let down, but all you "fanbois" love to say how great it is. Go pick up an issue of Scalped if you want to read a good story. Jason Aaron is the man.

[vickvega]

Ive got scalped, right now Batman is better. Jason Aaron is good, but Morrison is the Shit. We know you dont like this run, but your constantly posting how it sucks, why are you on this forum if you hate this Batman run? You havent even read this issue!?

[ASM78]

Ive got scalped, right now Batman is better. Jason Aaron is good, but Morrison is the Shit. We know you dont like this run, but your constantly posting how it sucks, why are you on this forum if you hate this Batman run? You havent even read this issue!?

I have read the issue....as for why I post bad things about this run....balance.
We need balance.....too many people post the "genius" of this run. But since I like you Vick I won't be mean anymore:biggrin:

[Mat001]

:confused: Okay, I only got into Batman at the beginning of Grant's run... so does Joker know Batman's (and by virtue of that, Nightwing and Robin's) identity now?


Well, back in Batman #429, Bruce suspected that the Joker knew that he was Bruce Wayne when he paused in front of him while they were in the UN. Bruce was Bruce Wayne and not Batman at the moment. They stared at each other for a few moments before the Joker moves on. To the Joker, he doesn't care about Bruce Wayne. Only Batman.

[vickvega]

So what didnt you like about this issue? Besides the fact that Bruce Jones didnt write it?

[ASM78]

Ok Vick for the last time I do not like Bruce Jones....where the hell did you get that idea from?

[vickvega]

ASsMonkey78 you are such a tool, I see why you didnt "get" this book. Ok now I'll stop being mean.

[James Conniff]

Well, back in Batman #429, Bruce suspected that the Joker knew that he was Bruce Wayne when he paused in front of him while they were in the UN. Bruce was Bruce Wayne and not Batman at the moment. They stared at each other for a few moments before the Joker moves on. To the Joker, he doesn't care about Bruce Wayne. Only Batman.

I love that. Bruce Wayne just isn't any fun, but the Batman on the other hand is a bunch of laughs.

I have to say I am a bit disappointed if we are to believe the last page. Jezebel Jet, the new girl friend that Grant introduced in his run, is the black glove? Yawn. I was expecting something really big, hopefully that was just grant messing with us for another issue. I guess the reveal of the Black Glove isn't as important as finding out what ends up happening to Bat's but I still felt let down by this issue.

The Joker was great fun, I like this new version, but he could really use a shirt. He looks like Marilyn Manson with green hair while he walks around like that. I like the scars and the bullet wound, it's a good update for him... I just hope he ends up getting the Purple suit back, with a modern update as well.

Here's hoping the last part of RIP rocks my socks off.

[HopeLantern]

Let me just say that Morrison knocked it right out of the park on this one. This was IMHO the best part of R.I.P. yet. This Joker incarnation is so incredibly creepy and violent. THIS is the true joker. That reveal on the last page was awesome. I mean we knew that Jezebel Jet would be involved in someway, but that to me was one incredible cliff hanger. Bruce is mentally broken, and his
Z-E-A personality actually has a time clock on it. This is going to go down as one of the greatest runs on Batman ever. I can't wait for the conclusion! RIP makes complete sense to me.

This story is so cool. It brings the Silver Age all into continuity, and does something not really ever thought possible. It BREAKS Batman. It makes you research the history of the character, and it gives Batman a whole new perspective, something not easily done since we're fastly approaching 700 issues. I hope Grant stays on this book for a long time. This is hereby my favorite book. I wonder what becomes of Nightwing and Robin next issue, since that leads directly into Final Crisis.


Now do you get it? Lol

[Seraku]

what the hell did I just read?

[HopeLantern]

Well, back in Batman #429, Bruce suspected that the Joker knew that he was Bruce Wayne when he paused in front of him while they were in the UN. Bruce was Bruce Wayne and not Batman at the moment. They stared at each other for a few moments before the Joker moves on. To the Joker, he doesn't care about Bruce Wayne. Only Batman.

Thanks for clarifying that up for me. THAT tidbit of info actually made reading this even better. It's like Grant read every issue of Batman ever made before making this awesome story.

[Hookpunch]

I have to say I am a bit disappointed if we are to believe the last page. Jezebel Jet, the new girl friend that Grant introduced in his run, is the black glove? Yawn. .

What last page are you referring to? And you are right if that is the case, a big disappointment.

[Seraku]

why were people surprised by that? it was mentioned in a solicit 3 months ago

[Hookpunch]

why were people surprised by that? it was mentioned in a solicit 3 months ago

excuse my ignorance but what is a solicit?

[vickvega]

Jezebel Jet isnt the Black Glove, The Black Globe is Dr. Hurt, who is in turn someone else. Jezebel Jet is just part of the Black Gloves plan, who is now revealed to be evil.

[AlistairCrane]

Jezebel Jet isnt the Black Glove, The Black Globe is Dr. Hurt, who is in turn someone else. Jezebel Jet is just part of the Black Gloves plan, who is now revealed to be evil.

No, Hurt works for the Black Glove. The Black Glove was indeed revealed to be Jet this issue. That's why she, you know, put on the black glove.

[ultramandingo]

......... hyuk . that cabeza de mierda el sombrero got turned in to a piñata .Caray!

[Seraku]

excuse my ignorance but what is a solicit?

http://p-userpic.livejournal.com/37361290/5058986

http://dccomics.com/dcu/comics/?cm=10341

[trickster]

"Now do you get it?" Brrr.
I'm ashamed to admit I don't. What's with the tiles? And that "he knows". What does he know?
Anyone clever enough to figure out how it all ends?

[Samuraixsithlord]

Batman R.I.P would have a bigger impact on me if i didn't know that Batman would be back to his old self in like 2 issues for Final Crisis.

[spidervenom]

so Jezebel jet is the black glove? I feel so cheated. I really hope theres more than there appears.

[dreyga2000]

so Jezebel jet is the black glove? I feel so cheated. I really hope theres more than there appears.

Me too... hope this is just another serve

[Super Buddies Forever]

Batman R.I.P would have a bigger impact on me if i didn't know that Batman would be back to his old self in like 2 issues for Final Crisis.

Actually, Morrison hints that RIP is setting up Bruce's exit as Batman in Final Crisis. So Final Crisis will actually be an integral part of the story.

[40footwolf]

so Jezebel jet is the black glove? I feel so cheated. I really hope theres more than there appears.
I seem to recall that Morrison said that you wouldn't know who the Black Glove was until the end of the last issue.

Also: WHAT IS UP WITH THE JOKER? WHY DOES HE HAVE TWO TONGUES?!?

[Samuraixsithlord]

Actually, Morrison hints that RIP is setting up Bruce's exit as Batman in Final Crisis. So Final Crisis will actually be an integral part of the story.

So he's hinting that after FC he'll retire, or at least take a break for awhile?

I wonder why Darkseid didn't hit Bruce with the ALE? The Solicitations for FC #4 seem to imply that he's still himself

[Lew Moxon]

I seem to recall that Morrison said that you wouldn't know who the Black Glove was until the end of the last issue.

Also: WHAT IS UP WITH THE JOKER? WHY DOES HE HAVE TWO TONGUES?!?

He did that to himself Joker's crazy like that,

[HopeLantern]

I seem to recall that Morrison said that you wouldn't know who the Black Glove was until the end of the last issue.

Also: WHAT IS UP WITH THE JOKER? WHY DOES HE HAVE TWO TONGUES?!?

They wanted to show truly maniacal he is, so he took one of the razors in his hand and slit his own tongue. Remember, the Joker has this thing with pain where he doesn't feel it to the level a "normal" human was, and actually gets off on it.

[Quinnhop]

I seem to recall that Morrison said that you wouldn't know who the Black Glove was until the end of the last issue.

Also: WHAT IS UP WITH THE JOKER? WHY DOES HE HAVE TWO TONGUES?!?

Yeah, the Jet thing is a total feint.

And the Joker has "two" tongues because he cut it in half. He's "the serpent", after all, leading Batman down the rabbit hole -- giving him a taste of the forbidden fruit, so to speak.

[nepenthes]

so Jezebel jet is the black glove? I feel so cheated. I really hope theres more than there appears.

thanks pal :rolleyes:

[40footwolf]

I knew that there was some satanic symbolism in that. I just wanted to know if it was what I thought it was and, apparently, it's even worse.

"NOW do you get it?"

No. No, not at all. But I'll have a hell of a time figuring it out. Thank you, Grant Morrison.

[James Conniff]

so Jezebel jet is the black glove? I feel so cheated. I really hope theres more than there appears.

If there isn't then this has been a bit of a waste. All of this for a Loebesque ending? Ugh...the last issue better be amazing, and twist this thing on it's ear. If anyone can pull this out of his arse in a single issue and have all the answers to the questions I have it is Grant Morrison.

Actually, Morrison hints that RIP is setting up Bruce's exit as Batman in Final Crisis. So Final Crisis will actually be an integral part of the story.

It makes me wonder if that's even Bruce in the cape and cowl...has anyone referred to him as Bruce in Final Crisis. I'd go back and reread the issues, but I'm really not enjoying Final Crisis all that much, maybe when i finish my degree in Kirby studies I'll actually be able to enjoy all the little references.

[40footwolf]

That whole exchange with the Joker and Batman at the end also makes me think of the Tool song Ticks and Leeches.

"Is this what you wanted?/Is this what you had in mind?/Is this what you wanted?/'Cause this is what you're getting."

Freaky, unnerving stuff.

[Quinnhop]

thanks pal :rolleyes:

Thread title says "spoilers". C'mon...

[kalika]

That whole exchange with the Joker and Batman at the end also makes me think of the Tool song Ticks and Leeches.

"Is this what you wanted?/Is this what you had in mind?/Is this what you wanted?/'Cause this is what you're getting."

Freaky, unnerving stuff.

you get extra bat-points for the Tool reference. Well played! :cool:

[TimothyCallahan]

My annotations for issue #680 are now posted:

http://geniusboyfiremelon.blogspot.com/2008/10/batman-rip-part-v-batman-680.html

Poor, simple Batman!

[40footwolf]

you get extra bat-points for the Tool reference. Well played! :cool:
Oh man! Those are the best kinds of points!

[spidervenom]

My annotations for issue #680 are now posted:

http://geniusboyfiremelon.blogspot.com/2008/10/batman-rip-part-v-batman-680.html

Poor, simple Batman!

Thanks, Tim. I really enjoy these.:biggrin:

[nepenthes]

Thread title says "spoilers". C'mon...

yep, I can read and yours IS the standard reply whenever this happens. but c'mon using spoiler tags isn't that hard or unreasonable. especially in a "preview thread". but you knew I was gonna say that didn't you

[frostedone]

Loved Bat-mite this issue. So he seems real, since the firth dimension is like imagination or something.

Also if the Joker didn't know who Batman was before, he does now. Batman was unmasked and was called Bruce several times by Jezebel, while the Joker was in the same room.

Hopefully Nightwing, Talia, Jim Gordon, Damian, and Robin will save the day. Also it seems that Dr. Arkham should know who Nightwing is from a few issues ago.

Jim Gordon should know Batman's ID too, since he met up with Talia and Damian. He also called Damian Robin so he must know that Robins House=Wayne manor and by extension Bruce = Batman.

[Kiryu]

Jezebel Jet's fate was not surprising at all. Beyond her name, Jezebel, she is a black woman with red hair. The pattern continues.

I'm note quite sold that the Black Glove is actually the devil/Satan/Lucifer yet though.

[Inverted]

One of the things that I noticed about this issues was the strange allusions to biblical symbolism especially since I just finished working on an assignment for my history of religion class. But I still don't understand. Jezebel Jet is the Black Glove...ok kinda expected. But the devil could be involved?

I always thought that Vertigo was somehow connected to the DCU but now this kind of screws everything up.

[Smokeyjay]

Jezebel Jet's fate was not surprising at all. Beyond her name, Jezebel, she is a black woman with red hair. The pattern continues.

I'm note quite sold that the Black Glove is actually the devil/Satan/Lucifer yet though.


Plus she's black, and this continues the DC tradition of putting black in front of black characters.

Anyways, I found the annotations helpful because I was a bit confused. I'm also not sold that Jet also represents the devil.

And a bit confused about what exactly did Bruce just "get"? The absurdity of life? The realization that he was duped?

On another note, I think the reason why those villains all came in wearing masks because identity has been a theme in the issues which was exemplified with the revealing of Jet. Plus the irony of Jet not needing to wear a mask.

Edit: I think the addition of a devil makes things too confusing. It raises too many questions. Wouldn't the devil make Jokers absurd world view clearly wrong than? Then there would be good/evil and a reason to be good, etc. etc.

[Dr. Chaos]

I had originally figured Jet was involved with The Black Glove, her conversation with Bruce in the batcave seemed to clinch it but the scene where she was taken by the Club of Villians admittedly took me off the scent.

Congratulations, Jezebel. You're now officially the most ****ed up person Batman has ever dated.

Speaking of which, interesting to see Talia and Damian pop up.

Whatever happened to his Robin outfit? I loved that one, he looks kind of lame in his lil fencer outfit there.

[Kiryu]

Hoping there is more to that "I found out who Dr Hurt is and why he hates you" line from the Joker then he explains to Batman on the page after.

[Dr. Chaos]

Dr. Hurt is obviously Bruce's long lost evil brother, Trevor Wayne.

And is it just me or is he really trying to piss off The Joker or get him to stab him?

Who the hell walks up to The Joker and calls him their faithful servant?

You know...without their balls falling off?

As sly as Hurt seems to be, subtly pushing The Joker like that (with the lil "pattern" remark aswell) seemed a tad suspicious.

[Samuraixsithlord]

I knew that there was some satanic symbolism in that. I just wanted to know if it was what I thought it was and, apparently, it's even worse.

But the serpent in the garden of evil wasn't satan. he was just a physical representation of temptation.

[stillanerd]

Yeah, I think most people figured out almost from the get-go that Jezebel Jet was involved with the Black Glove, if not the Black Glove herself. It was obvious the moment she tried to work over Bruce about retiring Batman in part 2, right before Dr. Hurt came in. Of course, part of what makes it weak is that Bruce is supposed to have fallen head over heals in love with her so that her betrayal is all the more devastating, but there wasn't much of a build up for her that made her stand out than any other generic woman Bruce dated. Like someone else stated earlier, this plays almost exactly like what Loeb did in Hush when he revealed Tommy Elliot to be the mastermind. Now, perhaps, if this is supposed to tie into Final Crisis, as Morrison said, then it wouldn't surprise me if Jezebel is actually possessed by one of the Apokolips New Gods such as Granny Goodness, or something, but then that would really distract from the overall story.

Oh, and who here thinks that the Joker is going to kill Dr. Hurt (I'm wondering if Hurt is actually Joe Chill's son, which would make sense as he blames Batman for his father's suicide) because he called him his "servant?" If Hurt hadn't spent so much time focused on Batman, he should have realized that the Joker is someone nobody can control. Wouldn't surprise me if he killed Jezebel, too, seeing how if Batman dies, then him being the "Clown Prince of Crime" would become utterly pointless and no longer "fun."

[Dr. Chaos]

Yeah, I really have no idea what the hell Hurt is thinking in regards to The Joker.

His fate seems sealed.

[Duy]

But the serpent in the garden of evil wasn't satan. he was just a physical representation of temptation.
When it comes to an allusion, what the original text actually said is nowhere near as important as what people think the original text said.

I think the Devil being the main villain is too far-fetched, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it was Darkseid. I'd be really annoyed, but I wouldn't be surprised if at the end of all these stories, they all end in a way that makes the entire story not at all in any way self-contained.

[Dr. Chaos]

God...I hope this doesn't spill outside of The Bat-universe or into FC in general..

A story as big as this, whatever happens to Bruce, it needs to begin and end in his own book.

[Kiryu]

Yeah, I think most people figured out almost from the get-go that Jezebel Jet was involved with the Black Glove, if not the Black Glove herself. It was obvious the moment she tried to work over Bruce about retiring Batman in part 2, right before Dr. Hurt came in. Of course, part of what makes it weak is that Bruce is supposed to have fallen head over heals in love with her so that her betrayal is all the more devastating, but there wasn't much of a build up for her that made her stand out than any other generic woman Bruce dated. Like someone else stated earlier, this plays almost exactly like what Loeb did in Hush when he revealed Tommy Elliot to be the mastermind. Now, perhaps, if this is supposed to tie into Final Crisis, as Morrison said, then it wouldn't surprise me if Jezebel is actually possessed by one of the Apokolips New Gods such as Granny Goodness, or something, but then that would really distract from the overall story.

Oh, and who here thinks that the Joker is going to kill Dr. Hurt (I'm wondering if Hurt is actually Joe Chill's son, which would make sense as he blames Batman for his father's suicide) because he called him his "servant?" If Hurt hadn't spent so much time focused on Batman, he should have realized that the Joker is someone nobody can control. Wouldn't surprise me if he killed Jezebel, too, seeing how if Batman dies, then him being the "Clown Prince of Crime" would become utterly pointless and no longer "fun."

Jezebel absolutely cannot be the full mastermind for this to be an amazing story and not just "Hush". It was obvious from the get go that Jezebel(that name) was going to be working with the Black Glove in some capacity. But for her to be the ultimate villain is just bad and I refuse to believe that Grant Morrison's absolute big reveal is that the chick Batman was dating turned out to be evil. There has to be more, more to Dr Hurt. I'm also surprised that the third Batman hasn't shown up yet. I think Hurt maybe being Thomas Wayne Jr might have something going for it, which is cool, though not as cool as him actually being Thomas Wayne.

We've got 30 pages for Talia/Damian/Gordon's group to hit the scene, there's also Nightwing's come back, and Robin with the Club of Heroes. Plus we need to know exactly what and who the Black Glove is and is doing. Also some more revelations about the information Gordon has regarding Thomas faking his death and Martha being a heroin addict and Black Gloved orgies and the like. Possibly for the Third Batman Dr Hurt created to come into play. Plus something that just completely shatterers Batman because so far, that hasn't happened.

Now I love this story and thought this issue was friggin awesome. But Jezebel Jet cannot be the mastermind of the Black Glove. That is so Hush and that sort of mediocrity from Morrison will kill the excitement I have from this story. I can totally accept her being evil, though not having that would have been refreshing.

I have faith that in one issue Grant can drop the final puzzle piece that completes not only RIP but his entire run.

[Dr. Chaos]

Plus something that just completely shatterers Batman because so far, that hasn't happened.
I do have to admit though I'm quite happy Batman's psycho defense force (Zerr-en-Ahh? Uhh? Whatever..) didn't end up completely dismantling their plans like I expected.

Bruce pretty much walked in there like he had conquerored the big mind **** only to get hit with a bigger blast, bringing him closer to his knees.

Maybe Bruce is ready for this but I'm hoping he's not, I love the idea that they were ready for everything just as Batman was, seemingly even his psychotic break and subsequent come back.

How does the hero that thinks of everything beat the adversary that thinks of everything? Thats what I want.

I want them to torture Bruce like he's a sim, taking it as far as it can go in a twisted godlike play of domination.

[Spiffy]

I want them to torture Bruce like he's a sim, taking it as far as it can go in a twisted godlike play of domination.
Well, then this would be Final Crisis...

[HaroldAllnut]

Huh... the Black Glove kinda reminds me of The Secret Cinema... Cavsanova v.2...

Issue 10, to be precise.

I think it is obvious how DC will handle everyone knowing Bruce Wayne is Batman......in several months Mephisto will appear and make a deal and.....oh wait...what title is this?

Bat New Day, anyone?

Well, back in Batman #429, Bruce suspected that the Joker knew that he was Bruce Wayne when he paused in front of him while they were in the UN. Bruce was Bruce Wayne and not Batman at the moment. They stared at each other for a few moments before the Joker moves on. To the Joker, he doesn't care about Bruce Wayne. Only Batman.

Yeah. Time and again, friends of mine ask me about this, and I just respond that the Joker's mindset is simply incomprehensible to the rest of humanity. Sure, any other Bat-rogue with his clutches on their hated nemesis' secret i.d. would wreak havoc, but the Joker? He doesn't care about these things. He sees Bruce Wayne as some pathetic, socially-mandatory addendum to the physical embodiment of his exact ideological opposite: the Batman.

[TJ Shoun]

Jezebel absolutely cannot be the full mastermind for this to be an amazing story and not just "Hush". It was obvious from the get go that Jezebel(that name) was going to be working with the Black Glove in some capacity. But for her to be the ultimate villain is just bad and I refuse to believe that Grant Morrison's absolute big reveal is that the chick Batman was dating turned out to be evil. There has to be more, more to Dr Hurt. I'm also surprised that the third Batman hasn't shown up yet. I think Hurt maybe being Thomas Wayne Jr might have something going for it, which is cool, though not as cool as him actually being Thomas Wayne.

We've got 30 pages for Talia/Damian/Gordon's group to hit the scene, there's also Nightwing's come back, and Robin with the Club of Heroes. Plus we need to know exactly what and who the Black Glove is and is doing. Also some more revelations about the information Gordon has regarding Thomas faking his death and Martha being a heroin addict and Black Gloved orgies and the like. Possibly for the Third Batman Dr Hurt created to come into play. Plus something that just completely shatterers Batman because so far, that hasn't happened.

Now I love this story and thought this issue was friggin awesome. But Jezebel Jet cannot be the mastermind of the Black Glove. That is so Hush and that sort of mediocrity from Morrison will kill the excitement I have from this story. I can totally accept her being evil, though not having that would have been refreshing.

I have faith that in one issue Grant can drop the final puzzle piece that completes not only RIP but his entire run.

Yeah, I think it's obvious that Jezebel is NOT the Black Glove.

Even beyond what you've mentioned, consider Morrison's X-Men run, wherein the ultimate villain was ostensibly revealed to be Magneto, posing as Xorn.

By the end though, we find that the true mastermind behind everything was Sublime.

So yeah -- Jet's way too easy.

[TeamED209]

I don't think jet is the black glove because at the end of Batman 665, there a scene with jet and bruce making out in venice and the black glove is watching them...altho im just assuming it was the black glove since all you see is black gloves holding a pair of binoculars...

[Retro315]

Okay ... there's a lot of things to take notice of in this issue. Just because it's the penultimate chapter doesn't mean the background stimulus, the little tips and hints, are winding down. So I'm going to get very detailed here ...

Page 1-2: Nothing major. The Club of Villains henchmen watch the arrival of their very high profile guests, who end up being the usual "secret upper crust society" fare ... a general, a priest, a businessman, a scientist, an oil tycoon, and a middle eastern sheik. Two very disturbing members ... the businessman has brought his very young daughter (or ... he's brought a very young girl, at any rate, which is more sick). And the priest is escorted by a teenage boy. We also see the finished decor, red and black, which it is strongly hinted later on was requested by Joker.

Page 3: Hurt calls Arkham a "house of horrors", but these aren't horrors like the kind Gordon is finding in Wayne Major. Funny to note that an S&M style ball gag is keeping Jezebel's mouth shut ... and it's red and black. I doubt it's coincidence that Morrison used one of these rather than a simple clothe gag. Firstly, the Black Glove has an S&M vibe ... secondly, the obvious hints for Batman.

Page 4: Le Bossu believes Joker is perfect and complete ... but Joker believes that Batman completes him. Joker adapts, then Batman adapts, and so the cycle has gone for years. Le Bossu makes a fatal mistake by trying to kiss Joker's butt, and even trying to compare his "monstrosity" with Joker. Joker's yawn seems to show that Le Bossu is boring him, which is to Joker, probably more than enough reason to shred his face. Meanwhile, we have Scorpiana alone with Nightwing, who'll likely shake the drugs and take her down. Le Bossu also mentions that the whole Club was inspired by Joker, and indeed, almost all of their specialties are things that Joker himself has done. Houses of death (Sombrero) ... specialty with explosives (The Ned Kelly lookalike, conveniently named Jack) ... specialty with poison (Scorpiana) ... serial killer clown (Pierrot Lunaire) ...

Page 6: Joker hangs El Sombrero like a villain in a western. Appropriate death. I've also been trying to draw a conclusion from the candelabra with five candles. Five? Why five? The only thoughts I have are ... Joker's FIVE way revenge ... or the fact that Morrison's run has had five arcs. Batman & Son. Clown at Midnight. Club of Heroes. Three Ghosts. RIP.

Page 7: Two coins, one with "Black" taped to it, and one with "Red" taped to it. But they aren't "two sides of the same coin" ...

Page 8: So Batman needs his imagination to deal with the crazies in Arkham. No surprise there.

Page 10: Dick, Tim, Gordon ... the three Joker pictured dead in his Rorschach Test with Le Bossu. There were damn few words back in that scene, but it seems to me Le Bossu used it as the way to determine how Joker wanted this whole thing prepared. All part of the plan.

Page 11: Silas was the name of a saint in Jerusalem, one of the early followers of Christ. Mordecai was another Jewish figure ... banished by rulers for refusing to bow to them. Interestingly about Mordecai, is that the name is a play on Marduk, the god of war. The name would mean "follower of Marduk", and therefore "warrior". I can't tell if Mordecai Wayne is supposed to be a Puritan or a cowboy ... but I'd guess cowboy. At any rate, a lot of biblical names in Bruce's family. Irony here is that another meaning for Mordecai is "little boy". And ANOTHER meaning is kind of a cross between "gentleman" and "inheritor of merit". And lastly, linguists connect it to "bitter". Bruce fits all those categories. Really strange here is the use of the Red Phone ... which is lifted 100% out of the old Batman TV Show, where Gordon called Batman on a red Bat-Phone, rather than using the iconic signal.

Page 12: Damian shows up with a bow and arrow, and Gordon thinks "Robin?" which is probably foreshadowing, since there are chances he'll end up being Robin, and it's also probably a nice homage to Robin Hood, since he's using the bow and arrow. Talia's henchman has broken the Bat-Phone ... I'm not sure if that's symbolism for "Gordon's connection to Batman is now broken". The "I want a Batmobile" line ... I really have no clue about.

Page 13: Interesting that Bats still has Charlie Caligula's crown of leaves on his belt. That really plays with Batman's whole "trophy" mindset. Let's face it, Batman is a guy who counts victories in the war on crime with trophies. His cave is full of them. Must be part of the Batman personality.

Page 15-16: "Love really is blind" ... Joker cuts his tongue into a fork with a razor ... which is a huge hint. Forked tongue? Come on, Batman! He's clearly telling you that everything he's been saying is a lie. It's almost like Joker is trying to warn Batman about Jezebel, but doesn't want to ruin the plans.

Page 17: Joker has screwed up Bossu's face ... making his outsides match his insides. Again, very appropriate. Interesting, I'll point out, that Joker is wearing WHITE gloves.

Page 18: Batman is choking Joker out, and here Joker is trying to point out finally with words what he's been hinting at all along ... that Batman is being played by this chick. These sorts of games are things Joker will always see coming, but Batman apparently can't always see.

Page 20: Joker doesn't seem to care that Batman is Bruce Wayne, one bit. Because in big picture terms, he probably sees how that's possible (his comments before ... "it's dad, mom, the job"). But anyway, all that hard work and Batman fails. Kind of like how the Joker has been all these years failing, but still gets up and tries again.

Page 21: Hurt calls Joker a servant. Great way to get yourself killed, Hurt. Bruce is getting Jokerized, the Bat-Radia (all-knowingness) seems broken. Most importantly, Jet seems immune to Joker toxin ...

Page 22: The big Jet reveal. Not too surprising, but ... Morrison leaves out whether or not she's THE Black Glove or just PART of the Black Glove. I did notice that she is putting on TWO black gloves ... not one.

My first notion is that, like Hurt said, the Black Glove has a long tradition, going "way back" ... if Jezebel is the titular Black Glove or a major part, then she could very well be immortal, very long-lived, or have a deeper secret than that. That could explain her immunity to the Joker toxin. Immortality might even lead to a Ra's al Ghul tie ... I mean, isn't he in that Asylum somewhere, this very minute?

My second thought was one I had a long, long time ago - that she's been Harley Quinn all along. Seems kind of obvious and unlikely ... but the fact that it's this classy, upscale event could explain the evening gown rather than the harlequin outfit. I mean, technically, because of the red and black, she is a harlequin. Plus the glee at seeing Batman beaten ... the "not playing second-fiddle" to Joker ... especially after his latest transformation pushed her to her "sidekick limits" - this is more of a partner job. And somebody a long time ago mentioned that Harley Quinn does in fact have one black glove.

Or it could just be another part of Hurt's game, and Jezebel is just a perfectly utilized actress, and there is still yet more to the Black Glove.

So all in all ... still a lot of little things to decipher ...

[Nefarius]

I hope Joker doesn't retain his new look after Morrison's run.

[HopeLantern]

Jezebel absolutely cannot be the full mastermind for this to be an amazing story and not just "Hush". It was obvious from the get go that Jezebel(that name) was going to be working with the Black Glove in some capacity. But for her to be the ultimate villain is just bad and I refuse to believe that Grant Morrison's absolute big reveal is that the chick Batman was dating turned out to be evil. There has to be more, more to Dr Hurt. I'm also surprised that the third Batman hasn't shown up yet. I think Hurt maybe being Thomas Wayne Jr might have something going for it, which is cool, though not as cool as him actually being Thomas Wayne.

We've got 30 pages for Talia/Damian/Gordon's group to hit the scene, there's also Nightwing's come back, and Robin with the Club of Heroes. Plus we need to know exactly what and who the Black Glove is and is doing. Also some more revelations about the information Gordon has regarding Thomas faking his death and Martha being a heroin addict and Black Gloved orgies and the like. Possibly for the Third Batman Dr Hurt created to come into play. Plus something that just completely shatterers Batman because so far, that hasn't happened.

Now I love this story and thought this issue was friggin awesome. But Jezebel Jet cannot be the mastermind of the Black Glove. That is so Hush and that sort of mediocrity from Morrison will kill the excitement I have from this story. I can totally accept her being evil, though not having that would have been refreshing.

I have faith that in one issue Grant can drop the final puzzle piece that completes not only RIP but his entire run.

I don't think Jezebel is the Black Glove. I think she's a member of the group. I wish I had the citation here, but Morrison stated in an interview in July sometime that the "Black Glove" is revealed in Part 6, and it's the "Biggest revelation in 70 yrs of Batman History". Jezebel is part of a plot, but there is still at least one more reveal to occur. At most, she's 2nd in command, but she's not the head, and neither is Dr. Hurt. I agree, I think Hurt will be killed next issue. Did you see the look on Joker's face after he called him "Servant"? Joker's the ultimate wildcard. He's been turned down for villian group memberships for the same reason... he's too unstable to be on anyone's side except his own. He does not do "order" only anarchy. And also, even though otherwise, I think that when Joker starts to think about it, he'll believe Bruce when he revealed that Dr. Hurt masterminded Joker being shot by the faux Batman. The next issue is going to be HUGE, and this will go down as one of the greatest runs ever. I'm interested to see how Morrison ties RIP to FC. Does Batman get killed? Get turned into a God (I thought Warner Bros. scrapped both those ideas?) With yesterday's issue, this guy is one of my favorite writers, now.

On another topic, does the Commissioner know that Bruce is Batman now? Again, I only got into Batman during Morrison's run, but given the conversation he had with Thalia about Damian being Batman's son, and how her "Beloved" likes Jim, and that he was led to Wayne manor? He's put two and two together, right?

[nepenthes]

damn that was a hell of an issue. I love how Morrison teases us like that. "You think you can work it all out....that's wikipedia"....... "Now do you get it?" ummmmm no :cool:


"Mother. I want a batmobile":biggrin:. Possibly the best line in the issue. Also check Jokers expression when Dr.Hurt tells him to stop.

I also really appreciate the line about Robins colours. And Joker is angry at Batman for shooting him, he's really peeved off now! like they were just playing the whole time before, that was just fun but Batman had to ruin it ha ha :rolleyes:

edit - interesting thoughts Retro

[HopeLantern]

Okay ... there's a lot of things to take notice of in this issue. Just because it's the penultimate chapter doesn't mean the background stimulus, the little tips and hints, are winding down. So I'm going to get very detailed here ...

Page 1-2: Nothing major. The Club of Villains henchmen watch the arrival of their very high profile guests, who end up being the usual "secret upper crust society" fare ... a general, a priest, a businessman, a scientist, an oil tycoon, and a middle eastern sheik. Two very disturbing members ... the businessman has brought his very young daughter (or ... he's brought a very young girl, at any rate, which is more sick). And the priest is escorted by a teenage boy. We also see the finished decor, red and black, which it is strongly hinted later on was requested by Joker.

Page 3: Hurt calls Arkham a "house of horrors", but these aren't horrors like the kind Gordon is finding in Wayne Major. Funny to note that an S&M style ball gag is keeping Jezebel's mouth shut ... and it's red and black. I doubt it's coincidence that Morrison used one of these rather than a simple clothe gag. Firstly, the Black Glove has an S&M vibe ... secondly, the obvious hints for Batman.

Page 4: Le Bossu believes Joker is perfect and complete ... but Joker believes that Batman completes him. Joker adapts, then Batman adapts, and so the cycle has gone for years. Le Bossu makes a fatal mistake by trying to kiss Joker's butt, and even trying to compare his "monstrosity" with Joker. Joker's yawn seems to show that Le Bossu is boring him, which is to Joker, probably more than enough reason to shred his face. Meanwhile, we have Scorpiana alone with Nightwing, who'll likely shake the drugs and take her down. Le Bossu also mentions that the whole Club was inspired by Joker, and indeed, almost all of their specialties are things that Joker himself has done. Houses of death (Sombrero) ... specialty with explosives (The Ned Kelly lookalike, conveniently named Jack) ... specialty with poison (Scorpiana) ... serial killer clown (Pierrot Lunaire) ...

Page 6: Joker hangs El Sombrero like a villain in a western. Appropriate death. I've also been trying to draw a conclusion from the candelabra with five candles. Five? Why five? The only thoughts I have are ... Joker's FIVE way revenge ... or the fact that Morrison's run has had five arcs. Batman & Son. Clown at Midnight. Club of Heroes. Three Ghosts. RIP.

Page 7: Two coins, one with "Black" taped to it, and one with "Red" taped to it. But they aren't "two sides of the same coin" ...

Page 8: So Batman needs his imagination to deal with the crazies in Arkham. No surprise there.

Page 10: Dick, Tim, Gordon ... the three Joker pictured dead in his Rorschach Test with Le Bossu. There were damn few words back in that scene, but it seems to me Le Bossu used it as the way to determine how Joker wanted this whole thing prepared. All part of the plan.

Page 11: Silas was the name of a saint in Jerusalem, one of the early followers of Christ. Mordecai was another Jewish figure ... banished by rulers for refusing to bow to them. Interestingly about Mordecai, is that the name is a play on Marduk, the god of war. The name would mean "follower of Marduk", and therefore "warrior". I can't tell if Mordecai Wayne is supposed to be a Puritan or a cowboy ... but I'd guess cowboy. At any rate, a lot of biblical names in Bruce's family. Irony here is that another meaning for Mordecai is "little boy". And ANOTHER meaning is kind of a cross between "gentleman" and "inheritor of merit". And lastly, linguists connect it to "bitter". Bruce fits all those categories. Really strange here is the use of the Red Phone ... which is lifted 100% out of the old Batman TV Show, where Gordon called Batman on a red Bat-Phone, rather than using the iconic signal.

Page 12: Damian shows up with a bow and arrow, and Gordon thinks "Robin?" which is probably foreshadowing, since there are chances he'll end up being Robin, and it's also probably a nice homage to Robin Hood, since he's using the bow and arrow. Talia's henchman has broken the Bat-Phone ... I'm not sure if that's symbolism for "Gordon's connection to Batman is now broken". The "I want a Batmobile" line ... I really have no clue about.

Page 13: Interesting that Bats still has Charlie Caligula's crown of leaves on his belt. That really plays with Batman's whole "trophy" mindset. Let's face it, Batman is a guy who counts victories in the war on crime with trophies. His cave is full of them. Must be part of the Batman personality.

Page 15-16: "Love really is blind" ... Joker cuts his tongue into a fork with a razor ... which is a huge hint. Forked tongue? Come on, Batman! He's clearly telling you that everything he's been saying is a lie. It's almost like Joker is trying to warn Batman about Jezebel, but doesn't want to ruin the plans.

Page 17: Joker has screwed up Bossu's face ... making his outsides match his insides. Again, very appropriate. Interesting, I'll point out, that Joker is wearing WHITE gloves.

Page 18: Batman is choking Joker out, and here Joker is trying to point out finally with words what he's been hinting at all along ... that Batman is being played by this chick. These sorts of games are things Joker will always see coming, but Batman apparently can't always see.

Page 20: Joker doesn't seem to care that Batman is Bruce Wayne, one bit. Because in big picture terms, he probably sees how that's possible (his comments before ... "it's dad, mom, the job"). But anyway, all that hard work and Batman fails. Kind of like how the Joker has been all these years failing, but still gets up and tries again.

Page 21: Hurt calls Joker a servant. Great way to get yourself killed, Hurt. Bruce is getting Jokerized, the Bat-Radia (all-knowingness) seems broken. Most importantly, Jet seems immune to Joker toxin ...

Page 22: The big Jet reveal. Not too surprising, but ... Morrison leaves out whether or not she's THE Black Glove or just PART of the Black Glove. I did notice that she is putting on TWO black gloves ... not one.

My first notion is that, like Hurt said, the Black Glove has a long tradition, going "way back" ... if Jezebel is the titular Black Glove or a major part, then she could very well be immortal, very long-lived, or have a deeper secret than that. That could explain her immunity to the Joker toxin. Immortality might even lead to a Ra's al Ghul tie ... I mean, isn't he in that Asylum somewhere, this very minute?

My second thought was one I had a long, long time ago - that she's been Harley Quinn all along. Seems kind of obvious and unlikely ... but the fact that it's this classy, upscale event could explain the evening gown rather than the harlequin outfit. I mean, technically, because of the red and black, she is a harlequin. Plus the glee at seeing Batman beaten ... the "not playing second-fiddle" to Joker ... especially after his latest transformation pushed her to her "sidekick limits" - this is more of a partner job. And somebody a long time ago mentioned that Harley Quinn does in fact have one black glove.

Or it could just be another part of Hurt's game, and Jezebel is just a perfectly utilized actress, and there is still yet more to the Black Glove.

So all in all ... still a lot of little things to decipher ...
This is a great post, thanks! There's tons of stuff I hadn't thought about...

[nepenthes]

when Bruce refers to batmite as "might"....it can mean his own inner strength, or it can mean that he might he real, or he might not. He's all "might" :cool:

[Verdammt]

I think I can sum this all up in 6 little words......."681 can't get here fast enough."

[4thHorseman]

Hands down the best issue of RIP if not of Morrisons entire run.

This may sound stupid and a terrible idea, but I had a funny feeling that Joker was going to turn Batman into Joker v2....

Parts of it make sense in my mind...

[PatchMadripoor]

Hands down the best issue of RIP if not of Morrisons entire run.

This may sound stupid and a terrible idea, but I had a funny feeling that Joker was going to turn Batman into Joker v2....

Parts of it make sense in my mind...

If Joker wants to keep his playing partner he's getting him to survive the head games that the Black Glove play on him, then yeah, Joker knows that the Zur En Arrh mode of operating is not enough to see the big picture. I agree that, and in his own way, Joker is trying to help Bruce.

Those roses within the room that Jet was in.... are they truly tainted? Bruce/Batman was able to get in, but it's not killing him. I believe he is passing out from the breakdown. As for Jezebel, either the roses are not tainted or her specialty is being immune to them as part of her lethal talent - seduction.

[IvCNuB4]

Thread title says "spoilers". C'mon...

well, actually it says "spoliers", but whatever :wink:


when Bruce refers to batmite as "might"....it can mean his own inner strength, or it can mean that he might he real, or he might not. He's all "might" :cool:

Bat-Mite isn't real. He says so on page 9 (not counting ad pages): "I'm the last fading echo of the voice of reason ..". Look back at every appearance of Bat-Mite. He's always guiding or warning Batman. He is Bruce's instinct or intuition "personified". That's why he can't go with Bruce into Arkham. "Reason won"t fit through this door" ....

[dreyga2000]

well, actually it says "spoliers", but whatever :wink:




Bat-Mite isn't real. He says so on page 9 (not counting ad pages): "I'm the last fading echo of the voice of reason ..". Look back at every appearance of Bat-Mite. He's always guiding or warning Batman. He is Bruce's instinct or intuition "personified". That's why he can't go with Bruce into Arkham. "Reason won"t fit through this door" ....

He also said the 5th dimension is imgination... which may mean that he may actually be a "real" imp like Mxy.

[thinbalion]

Black Glove = Bruce Wayne

[nepenthes]

Bat-Mite isn't real. He says so on page 9 (not counting ad pages): "I'm the last fading echo of the voice of reason ..". Look back at every appearance of Bat-Mite. He's always guiding or warning Batman. He is Bruce's instinct or intuition "personified". That's why he can't go with Bruce into Arkham. "Reason won"t fit through this door" ....

But that's the thing, even a personified aspect of self is still somehow 'real' in it's own way, even if it;s in your own head. I think the line about the fifth dimension = imagination nails it perfectly. A "dimension" conveys something real and imagination makes the comic and story we hold in our hands exist tangibly, that's what Morrison is getting at, his familiar metatextual themes. Batmite is more of a question than an answer, you can't be certain of anything, its all "might" and maybe and possibilities, which are the source of all things

[Lew Moxon]

My second thought was one I had a long, long time ago - that she's been Harley Quinn all along. Seems kind of obvious and unlikely ... but the fact that it's this classy, upscale event could explain the evening gown rather than the harlequin outfit. I mean, technically, because of the red and black, she is a harlequin. Plus the glee at seeing Batman beaten ... the "not playing second-fiddle" to Joker ... especially after his latest transformation pushed her to her "sidekick limits" - this is more of a partner job. And somebody a long time ago mentioned that Harley Quinn does in fact have one black glove.




If I were the one writing the story. That would be the case. And I definitely thought of that. However, unfortunatly the evidence seems solidly against that.

[Retro315]

That's why he can't go with Bruce into Arkham. "Reason won"t fit through this door" ....

C'mon ... a figment of your imagination ... or moreover, an "aspect of humanity" can't become tangible?

Cough ... New Gods ... cough.

[PatchMadripoor]

Black Glove = Bruce Wayne

I can see that. If Bruce set up Zur En Arr as a modus operandi for mental attacks, then his attempts to think worse than any villain he has encountered would have it's own mentality.

[Mia]

Who's to say she still isn't? Sure, a ball gag seems like it would be pretty uncomfortable, but if you are a really super-evil type perhaps that wouldn't be too high a price to pay to help set a trap.

I picked up the book yesterday, Evidently I stand corrected!

:redface:

[Chiroptera]

Well, once again I'm let down.

Joker disliking being a pawn to the black glove, turning on them and subtley trying to help Bruce over-come?
Did anyone really not expect that?
It's the JOKER; He IS Batman's nemesis! He habitually tries to kill the other Rogues in Batman's gallery anytime one of them comes closer to killing Batman than he has. Batman is his play mate and no one elses, and it pisses him off whenever someone else tries to off the Bat. That's his job, no one should ever dare try to usurp him in that respect less that face his full, grim, dark humored wrath.

Jezebel Jet being behind it/in on it all; again, who really didn't expect this?
She's been built up for this story since the moment she first appeared. She figured out who Batman was way to fast. She pressured him and threw doubt upon his mission and his identity as Batman ever since he let her into that side of his life. Everything she's ever done or said seem to be focused upon making him doubt his role Batman and the affect it's had on him and those around him.

She was as disappointing obvious an "Evil Bond Girl" as there could ever be, as hollow and blatant as Elektra in The World is Not Enough.


There was one upside to this. For once, there was actually something I liked about RIP, and that was the Joker. He is the Joker, they all underestimate him and he shows just WHY he is one of the most sadistic, unpredictable and terrifying villains in the entire DCU.

I'll say it again. I like Grant Morrison, I LOVED his All-Star Superman, I think he can be a very talented writer... And I think this is quite possibly the worst thing he's ever written.

[IvCNuB4]

C'mon ... a figment of your imagination ... or moreover, an "aspect of humanity" can't become tangible?

Cough ... New Gods ... cough.

I don't think it's a matter of becoming tangible. Bat-Mite (as the voice of reason) won't be needed or useful within Arkham. There was a line, either this issue or last, that said something like logic or reasoning wouldn't help Batman once inside Arkham ..

[vickvega]

Has no one noticed the Green thing on Bat-mites back. You can barely see it in two different panels, but its there. I wonder what that is, and if Bat Mite is the voice of reason, then somethings screwing with it.

[Pixie_Solanas]

The only part of this I can agree with is Daniel's art. Ross's covers make Batman look fat and as for Morrison's writing....meh. This whole series is still a big let down, but all you "fanbois" love to say how great it is. Go pick up an issue of Scalped if you want to read a good story. Jason Aaron is the man.

Apples and oranges. You can like Scalped and Morrison's Batman both, you know. Not really sure why one even should relate to the other, other than the fact you're trying to act all "hip" by liking a semi-popular Vertigo title instead of a big-budget DC flagship book.

[LukeRed5]

I found this issue interesting. Not the best, but I'm intrigued by where this story is going. I don’t think Batman dies. We know he’s not around by the events of other Bat titles, but he’s not dead. I’m just not sold like some people who find this genius. Morrison has an interesting outline for this story, but I just don’t think he’s executing it correctly.

[frostedone]

What if the hero of this story turns out to be the Joker?

He is mad at Dr. Hurt so he kills him. He sees that Batman has lost it, and that hew was not the one to do it. He also realizes that his one equal in life is gone so he tries to bring him back.

[Splatt]

Well, my guess is that the Batman personality dies while Bruce Wayne persona becomes the main one.... or something.

[Chiroptera]

What if the hero of this story turns out to be the Joker?

He is mad at Dr. Hurt so he kills him. He sees that Batman has lost it, and that hew was not the one to do it. He also realizes that his one equal in life is gone so he tries to bring him back.

This is exactly what I predicted back when we were discussing the first or second issue of RIP, I can't remember which.
It just seems like the most logical conclusion, it's the sort've twisted backward scenario that wouldn't ever normally happen to a hero. His arch-nemesis trying to help him instead of kill him? That's not something you expect to see when the major hero and major villain of a comic face off.

I found this issue interesting. Not the best, but I'm intrigued by where this story is going. I don’t think Batman dies. We know he’s not around by the events of other Bat titles, but he’s not dead. I’m just not sold like some people who find this genius. Morrison has an interesting outline for this story, but I just don’t think he’s executing it correctly.

Another mirror of my own sentiments. I think the story has great potential, I think it could have been great, but I don't think it is great. At the moment RIP feels a lot to me like Morrison is trying to replicate the gritty intensity of Frank Miller's older Batman stories like DKR. That just doesn't flow well for me. I like Grant when he does his own story, rather than trying to follow a style similar to another writers. I think Morrison's entire run on Batman would have been better if he weren't so doggedly trying to force all the goofy stories of the silver age into modern continuity.

[vickvega]

Some of these criticism's make no sense. R.I.P. is Nothing like Frank Millers DKR. I dont know how you can even compare the two? I seriously doubt Joker will be the hero, its much too predictable, and joker even comments on this in the issue. People a saying they knew jezebel jet was the black hand the whole time? Yeah right, Speculation has been everyone from Satan to Wayne Relatives to Joe's long lost son. Now you say you knew it all along? Please. Morrison is still holding his cards tight, and no one knows what to expect for next issue.

[thatONEjustin]

He also said the 5th dimension is imgination... which may mean that he may actually be a "real" imp like Mxy.

This is confirmed in Batman/Superman #52, as Mxy and Bat-Mite sent the Mini-Justice League and Mini-Injustice League to New Earth in an attempt to see if it was inherently more evil than good (and vice versa).

[Binker]

By Nathaniel Ruff (also known as Binker, Binker2 and Nate on many forums)

BATMAN #680

Written by Grant Morrison
Art by Tony Daniel and Sandu Florea
Cover by Alex Ross
Variant cover by Daniel
Edited by Mike Marts

PLOT:
It’s “Batman R.I.P.” part 5 – and this issue features two events so monumental that one comic can barely contain them! First, Batman faces off against The Club of Villains. Then, The Joker makes his stand, challenging the Dark Knight to the ultimate battle of wits. Will Batman survive either of these threats – or could this be the end of Gotham City’s greatest hero?

REVIEW:
Overall, part 4 of this story was pretty much the set up for our second half of the event. Batman is heading toward the Club of Villains' way, Gordon is captured, we were revealed that it happened to be Nightwing that was drugged back in the last issue, Robin calls on the Club of Heroes to help out and the Joker is about to make a comeback with the Club of Villains. Things are now really heating up, and I want to see what happens next.

As six-parters are, the part five part is the one where it feels like we are on a roller coaster that stops short when we reach the final page so that part six will resume where we left off. For part five of "R.I.P.", Grant Morrison does give us that, but reading this almost feels like he injected something that would make me see flashing images as the story progressed. I hope that made sense because I hate to explain that even further. Plus, because the announcement up to the first four issues was that of mystery, I kinda got the feeling that I now knew what was going on. Of course, this is Morrison here, and like the ending to "All Star Superman" that I didn't see coming, what could happen is just a what-if from my part. I believe that the Black Glove is trying to destroy Batman from the inside (like the drugs) that will lead into Batman killing Jezebel who, from his drugged up point of view, he thinks is behind all this when she isn't. That also explains the solicit for #681 which stated "the final, heartrending confrontation between Bruce Wayne and Jezebel Jet.". Now, if I'm right, then cool! But if for some reason I'm not, then there is another plot twist waiting.

Overall, I guess that with nothing that was a flaw in this issue, this issue was another positive entry into this "R.I.P." storyline. I think I figured out what is going to happen via Black Glove's plan to destroy Batman, and plus the reveal that explains the final issue's solicit. But, since this is Morrison, it has to be a what-if until we read issue #681. I also believe, with no what-if, that from the various "aftermath" issues and stuff coming after #681, "R.I.P." is not truly finished until ALL THAT is done.

RATING: Yay

Next Issue: the Black Glove's shocking truth, and the fate of the Dark Knight!

[Chiroptera]

Some of these criticism's make no sense. R.I.P. is Nothing like Frank Millers DKR. I dont know how you can even compare the two? I seriously doubt Joker will be the hero, its much too predictable, and joker even comments on this in the issue. People a saying they knew jezebel jet was the black hand the whole time? Yeah right, Speculation has been everyone from Satan to Wayne Relatives to Joe's long lost son. Now you say you knew it all along? Please. Morrison is still holding his cards tight, and no one knows what to expect for next issue.

For one, I didn't say the stories were similar, I said the way that Grant is writing in Batman reminds me of Miller's style. I completely agree the stories are not similar at all.

I do agree Joker being the hero is predictable, but I also have seen plenty of writer's use the predictable plot because most people think (just like this) that it's to precitable to be the one that will actually play out.

And yes, I did expect Jezebel to be the Black Glove; I already explained why. You may not like that I expected it, but, that's not my problem; the fact is I did expect it, as did several others. She was one of ( as you stated) many potential suspects. Some people were certain that there suspect was the culprit. I was one of the people certain that it was Jet and so far that appears to be the accurate judgment. I could be wrong, there may be a twist I'm not expecting, if there is then great! I'll get a surprise I've been anticipating but not yet received. So far, that doesn't seem the case. It has seemed pretty obvious to me that she would either be the main villain, or the right-hand woman to the main villain. The only other person who I even considered might be the Black Glove was Joker himself.

As to Grant playing the cards close to his chest, I don't think so in the least. I've found nothing in this story to be unexpected. I think Grant's not worried so much about people figuring out the plot as he has about trying to provide a fun story for folks. Some of us have found it fun, some haven't.

I'm disappointed in this story from an author who I think can do much better. I'm not alone in my disappointment and there's nothing wrong with it; and there's no reason for you to seem so annoyed by it.

[thinbalion]

To support my earlier assertion that the Black Glove = Bruce Wayne...

Batman: "Batman doesn't use a gun. The Black Glove trained the man who shot you. Where's Jezbel Jet, you grinning freak?!"

Joker: "oh you're close, real close to it now [...] but you shot me"

[vickvega]

So you expected Zurr-En Arr Batman, You expected Bat-Mite to play a roll in this storyline? Millers style is similair to Morrisons? This was completely orginal, he tied in storylines from the 50's into current continuity. No one has done Batman going crazy. And I still dont think that Jezebel Jet is the Black Glove. Why would you give that away in the solicits? I mean I understand everyone doesnt like this story but I dont agree with your criticisms. Its cool though, to each his own. I just think your jumping to conclusions too early.

[PatchMadripoor]

I do agree Joker being the hero is predictable, but I also have seen plenty of writer's use the predictable plot because most people think (just like this) that it's to precitable to be the one that will actually play out.


I have to agree that while the story is predictable at points, the voyage getting here has been fascinating, and had some memorable moments.

Seeing Batman on Zur En Arrh mode has been fun, even the ties to those wacky stories from way back when , and the threat of an unseen and unknown villain beyond Batman's ability to see and reach was interesting. Having had a few weeks of slim sleep during in college, and walking around after finals all tripped out had interesting change in perspectives, and the Bat issues brought all that back.

Just when normal Bats is down and out, this whole new ker-azy Batman takes over, and he's so far out there beyond Rortshartz or the DCAU version of the Question. Talking to the Gargoyle's, etc.

Now Jezebel has put in the last stake into Bruce Wayne, and I can wait to see what emerges wearing Bruce Wayne's flesh.

[Dr. Chaos]

Wait, so Bruce being the black glove...letting all these freaks run around killing people for whatever crazy Batman plan this is.

Is that really something he would let people go through with, including The Joker?

[Chiroptera]

So you expected Zurr-En Arr Batman, You expected Bat-Mite to play a roll in this storyline? Millers style is similair to Morrisons? This was completely orginal, he tied in storylines from the 50's into current continuity. No one has done Batman going crazy. And I still dont think that Jezebel Jet is the Black Glove. Why would you give that away in the solicits? I mean I understand everyone doesnt like this story but I dont agree with your criticisms. Its cool though, to each his own. I just think your jumping to conclusions too early.

I didn't expect Zur-en Arr at all, no; but I did expect Batman to have some sort of mental safety net, as it were. It's a typical psychological technique, especially for psychologists who practice hypnosis. You try and give yourself a fall back. You give yourself words, phrases, things that are important to you that can help you defend against what you encounter.
Batman, more than anyone, would need such measurements. He regularly fights some of the craziest and most demented villains on earth.

And while no one has done Batman going crazy in this way before, there's been plenty of "batman's going nuts" stories before, and I personally have always thought the Batman in DKR was totally ape **** insane.

As to why giving away things in solicits? I can't explain that, and like I said, I could be wrong about Jet. At the moment, though, I don't think so. I don't think Grants trying as hard to hide the story as we all think he is. That's one of the few pieces of beauty I see in RIP. He's letting the reader do the work for him, throwing out red herrings and what-if ideas for all of us to chase after like dogs to cars; all he has to do is write something that a majority of the audience will enjoy reading, all the leg work of suspicion and doubt and wonderment can be accomplished quite easily just by giving the reader's imagination room to run rampant.

That's my personal stance. Whether anyone agrees with my criticisms or not, again, isn't my problem or prerogative.
I'm quite pleased others are enjoying this story; Morrison's probably lost me as a reader when this arc finishes but selling the book, keeping up sales, and holding the interest of a majority of the audience is more important than alienating a few readers.

[Joe no Sleep]

The only part of this I can agree with is Daniel's art. Ross's covers make Batman look fat and as for Morrison's writing....meh. This whole series is still a big let down, but all you "fanbois" love to say how great it is. Go pick up an issue of Scalped if you want to read a good story. Jason Aaron is the man.

I like Glen Orbik's covers better... he did a bunch of painted covers for Shadow of the Bat that look great, but seem forgotten by large.

Shouldn't the covers be showing the zurr-en-arrh Batman by now? They seem completly removed from the story. The variant cover to the last issue was more interesting.

[4thHorseman]

To support my earlier assertion that the Black Glove = Bruce Wayne...

Batman: "Batman doesn't use a gun. The Black Glove trained the man who shot you. Where's Jezbel Jet, you grinning freak?!"

Joker: "oh you're close, real close to it now [...] but you shot me"

I think this is the answer. It makes a lot of sense, almost like the other personality trying to break out. And Morrison said the answer has been evident since the first issue, and Zurr-En-Arr has been mentioned in almost every issue hasn't it?

Can't wait to see how this plays out.

[ampersand]

I just picked it up today and read it, I enjoyed it. I really love the bit where Joker sliced his tongue in 2 with the razor, that was badass-ery at its finest. Can't wait for 681.

[mgs]

He also said the 5th dimension is imgination... which may mean that he may actually be a "real" imp like Mxy.

yeah, that's what I was thinking..

[Karl O'Neill]

Fantastic issue, eagerly waiting for the final issue of this storyline, grant morrison is having the best year of his career in my opinion.

[James Conniff]

Black Glove = Bruce Wayne

That really has to be the answer. It is the only thing big enough to warrant all this build up.
Batman/BruceWayne knew all of the people working for the glove, or at least knew of them. He could have set up every attack, and who else possibly has the training to outsmart Batman(Proving once again that "with prep time" Batman can defeat anyone, even Batman), it would be very Fight Club of Morrison. This could be Bruce stepping down from Batman for a while(it sure as hell worked for Captain America). Morison telling the tale of others learning to become Batman and Robin(Dick and Damien?). Who knows what kind of stories you could tell here: Bruce as a super villain, Being Locked in Arkham, Regaining the cowl. There are just such a huge number of possibilities with that ending.

[codename x]

To support my earlier assertion that the Black Glove = Bruce Wayne...

Batman: "Batman doesn't use a gun. The Black Glove trained the man who shot you. Where's Jezbel Jet, you grinning freak?!"

Joker: "oh you're close, real close to it now [...] but you shot me"

no, i think joker said that cuz bats asked about jet, hinting that she's at least, if not black glove herself, working for the black glove.

in the same page later joker put "BATMAN shot JOKER", in his twisted mind he doesnt care whos under the mask, batman is batman, eventho it wasnt the real bats, neither is zur-en-arrh here.

however what DOES make me bring up bruce/bats is somehow involved is, as some1 pointed out earlier, that jokers wearing WHITE gloves.

now what does that mean....?

[Karl O'Neill]

Anyone else think tony daniel is going to be a superstar artist? if he is not already one.

[rZi]

Loved the issue alot

So Jet is part of the Black Glove...didn't see it coming, but makes sense.

Still have no idea what is going on though :confused:

[Retro315]

Has no one noticed the Green thing on Bat-mites back. You can barely see it in two different panels, but its there. I wonder what that is, and if Bat Mite is the voice of reason, then somethings screwing with it.

Just to help you out man ... while it hasn't been addressed in-books yet, it's pretty widely agreed that if Bat-Mite is kind of the "Bruce Wayne, sane, logical, voice of reason" personality, hanging out behind the "pure Batman" of Zur En Arrh, then the little freak demon thing riding piggy-back on Bat-Mite himself are all of Bruce's inner demons, which he exorcised in Nanda Parbat during 52.

Almost like a literal visual notion of "having a monkey on your back". Batman will never be fully rid of the pain of his past, but it's not major part of Bruce anymore, it's ... "behind him" ... dun dun dun.

The psychological result of turning Batman back into the hopeful, positive outlook ass-kicker of crime. The uh, hairy chested Silver Age love-god.

[Karl O'Neill]

Loved the issue alot

So Jet is part of the Black Glove...didn't see it coming, but makes sense.

Still have no idea what is going on though :confused:

I find the story easy to follow, I can;t see how anybody could not follow this story.

[pariah-1972]

I told you guys that Jezebel Jet was no good !

Great issue even tho some of the panels i was like "huh what the hell?"

Which seems to be typical of Morrison books nowadays.

Q: was there people in the limo that exploded? if so that means that Bat-man actually killed someone even tho he is crazy.

Also thought it was weird that Gordon isn't at all curious about why these people are hanging out in Bruce Wayne's mansion- does he know who Talia really is?

Either way unless he has completely figured out Bruce's secret id it would look pretty weird having a ninja assasins hanging out in your house .

Was the red and black tiles a reference to checkers? that seemed like some kind of clue but damn if i know what it means specially since Checkers seems more up Riddler's alley.

[Trey]

Holy crap! RIP is the best Batman story ever.

The ending really sucker-punched me. Even though I knew Jet was somehow going to betray Batman, I still felt that she was in danger and you can sense Bruce's desperation.

Morrison is amazing. Jet has only a couple of appearences and GM made me feel like she and Bruce were really a serious item. And It paid off with this latest issue.

That's what breaks Batman. He failed her. What is Batman's greatest failure? His parents death. He feels guilty for surviving. And the death of Jason Todd. Someone close to Batman, has a high chance of ending up dead.

The art was superb, perfectly capturing every scene. great coloring too. ALways give the colorist credit. Its half the art. Kudos to Guy Major.

I'm glad that only Joker from Bats' gallery is involved.

Great lines "...yawn" "Mother. I want a Batmobile"

The red and black just refers to the duality if the universe. Its very Morrison. And its the true nature of our world.

Oh, yeah one other thing____ Some people just don't get Morrison....hahahhahah

[rZi]

I find the story easy to follow, I can;t see how anybody could not follow this story.

Then feel free to spoil me;

who is the black glove?

what is there grudge against wayne?

whats the joker hinting at?

whats the red and black petals about?

[drinkblatzbeer]

silly me...just got the idea of the tie in to final crisis...

didn't morrison say that this title loosely ties into his final crisis story?

i'm guessing that either the joker or (somehow, like getting bruce to usurp ra's throne) talia come out on top in the next issue...
and just like final crisis, evil wins...

[Kiryu]

Then feel free to spoil me;

who is the black glove?

what is there grudge against wayne?

whats the joker hinting at?

whats the red and black petals about?

Well, this is a perfect example of a poor criticism of Morrison's work. Seriously. You're confused because parts of the story that are NOT MEANT TO BE REVEALED YET have not been revealed? Are you kidding?

Who is the Black Glove: Has not been revealed yet, you can't be confused about a plot point that hasn't been friggin brought into existence yet.

What is the grudge against Wayne: Also not revealed.

What's the Joker Hinting at: Well for most of the issue he is hinting at how painfully obvious it is that Jezebel Jet is more then meets the eye and is a member of the Black Glove. The forking of his tongue, the mention of Jet-Black Irony, telling Batman love is blind.

Black and Red Rose petals: From the Joker prose issue the Clown at Midnight. The roses contain an air born variant of the Joker toxin. In order to release the toxin, the black petals much touch the red. Gosh, that one was explained twice, once in the Clown at Midnight, and then in this issue just as the rose petals came into play. Try, just a little.

People are crying and whining that they're confused and don't know what's going on then come out with questions that are part of the friggin mystery of the story and not meant to be revealed until completion. What the hell. Do you really want to be taken by the hand and led through every aspect of the story? Think for yourselves, read between the lines.

[MartianBlonde]

Now do you get it?
I think that refers to: do you get how it is to be me? The Joker?
The Joker has been telling Bruce how his attempts at learning how Joker thinks were futile. Because to become him (and notice Bruce becomes Joker - he has the same smile, unless that's the Joker-toxin, but regardless, he's now like him -), he has to "lose his soul', lose it completely, go totally insane.
Now do you get it, Batman? To become like me, you have to lose it.

The Black Glove achieved his/her goal. He/She broke the bat. Now Bruce is insane. He gets it.

As to who the Black Glove is: BG is not Jet, or at least, Jet is not just Jet, otherwise there would be no big reveal in the final issue and it would be silly.

[thatONEjustin]

Just to help you out man ... while it hasn't been addressed in-books yet, it's pretty widely agreed that if Bat-Mite is kind of the "Bruce Wayne, sane, logical, voice of reason" personality, hanging out behind the "pure Batman" of Zur En Arrh, then the little freak demon thing riding piggy-back on Bat-Mite himself are all of Bruce's inner demons, which he exorcised in Nanda Parbat during 52.

Almost like a literal visual notion of "having a monkey on your back". Batman will never be fully rid of the pain of his past, but it's not major part of Bruce anymore, it's ... "behind him" ... dun dun dun.

The psychological result of turning Batman back into the hopeful, positive outlook ass-kicker of crime. The uh, hairy chested Silver Age love-god.

Ugh, I stated this earlier.

Bat-Mite was already proven to be a 5th dimensional imp from Batman/Superman #52.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

So Jezebel is a redhead that is apparently immune to Joker's toxin?

I'm not entirely convinced Joker is the only classic rogue in play, here.

[pariah-1972]

So Jezebel is a redhead that is apparently immune to Joker's toxin?

I'm not entirely convinced Joker is the only classic rogue in play, here.

Hmm and those were flowers falling on her right?

[nepenthes]

Immunity to poisons, red hair, strange ability to seduce Wayne utterly in a very short time span.....I had thought of it too. It makes sense in a way but it also just feels so wrong. I think its a deliberate red herring. And there would've been more hints if it were true anyway. But it would be a surprise that's fer sure

[mofo]

the 2nd last two pages of the book (not the final 2, the pair before that), were stuck together in my copy
kinda destroyed the flow of the story for me *sniff*

WHY GOD WHY

[Chiroptera]

Immunity to poisons, red hair, strange ability to seduce Wayne utterly in a very short time span.....I had thought of it too. It makes sense in a way but it also just feels so wrong. I think its a deliberate red herring. And there would've been more hints if it were true anyway. But it would be a surprise that's fer sure

I considered it as well. I agree, it's likely a red herring, but I would LOVE it if it were true, it would be so damned fitting of this whole re-imagining of the old school that's going on.
Here we've got someone we thought was an all new character and in fact it turns out to be an old rogue with a totally new trick.

[Dr. Chaos]

Holy crap! RIP is the best Batman story ever.
Like most of Morrison's work, It doesn't come even close to that for me.

I grow increasingly less interested with the arc itself and I'm more eager to find out what comes next than anything else.

And again I ask:

Wait, so Bruce being the black glove...letting all these freaks run around killing people for whatever crazy Batman plan this is.

Is that really something he would let people go through with, including The Joker?
People are dying because of The Black Glove, even those lame european henchmen (like the ones Joker sliced up).

Has Bruce gotten so ****ed up that he would let something like this play out?

[Karl O'Neill]

This joker is so creepy,. only morrison could pull off something this epic and groundbreaking.

[Karl O'Neill]

This joker is so creepy,. only morrison could pull off something this epic and groundbreaking.

[Karl O'Neill]

This joker is so creepy,. only morrison could pull off something this epic and groundbreaking.

[smoothjokes]

I think Jezebel Jet is Poison Ivy. I think it's quite obvious too. I have a feeling, a few of these Club of Villians are actually Bat-rogues.

[kalika]

Whoa, I feel sheepish! Totally did not even think of Poison Ivy but it does make plenty of sense regarding flowers, immunity to toxin, red hair and ability to seduce.

However.....


Morrison is amazing. Jet has only a couple of appearences and GM made me feel like she and Bruce were really a serious item. And It paid off with this latest issue.


can't agree here. Granted, I haven't read ALL of Grant's run -- I picked up The Black Glove TPB and managed to get my grubby paws on 665 but I'm still missing some Bruce/Jet interaction.

but.....I don't buy it, no way, no how. I can't for the life of me understand Bruce's attraction.

And the seduction thing is way over done. It's the most unbelievable thing about this story (and that's saying a lot!!!!)

Still enjoying the tale though. Is there a TPB of the stuff that happened before The Black Glove??

[Chiroptera]

I think Jezebel Jet is Poison Ivy. I think it's quite obvious too. I have a feeling, a few of these Club of Villians are actually Bat-rogues.

If it actually DOES play out that way, I'll tip my hat to Morrison suddenly making the entire story far more interesting to me. I might even be willing to go back and re-read the darn thing if a majority of the 'unknowns' in this story turn out to be some of Batman's old nemesises.

[vickvega]

R.I.P backwards= Poison Ivy Returns?

[Dark Master]

I think it would be very cool to have Jet turn out to be Poison Ivy. I think it would be a good last minute plot twist. I have not been a fan of much of Morrisons wil post X-men 150, And I still think Final Crisis is a colossal pile of dung. But I must admit R.I.P is turning out to be a rather well done story.

[Mat001]

Ugh, I stated this earlier.

Bat-Mite was already proven to be a 5th dimensional imp from Batman/Superman #52.


Not every issue of Superman/Batman is in continuity. Only when the writers of the main books chose to cherry pick ideas.

[Dark Master]

Not every issue of Superman/Batman is in continuity. Only when the writers of the main books chose to cherry pick ideas.

Thats true of most DC books and stories right now. Writers pick what they want to use and forget the rest.

[PatchMadripoor]

R.I.P backwards= Poison Ivy Returns?

Never, EVER thought of that. I have to agree, having "Jet" be Ivy explains a lot and really sets up Ivy to be a major contender for Big Bad. It's not likely but it would make keep the villains within Batman's established Rogue's gallery instead of being some no name outsider.

Still would love to know who Dr. Hurt is and whether or not we've seen him before.

[stillanerd]

Has anyone considered the possibility that the black and red rose petals are NOT poisoned? Notice that when Bruce goes to rescue Jezebel, his mask his off and his word balloons are normal, no longer the blue of the Batman of Zur-en-arrh. And remember Bat-Mite told him that since the Batman of Zur-en-arrh was created to resist psychological attack, that it was only a temporary measure and that it could be over exerted?

Well, I think that by the time Bruce sees Jezebel and starts trying to free her, that is the moment that the Batman of Zur-en-arrh "shut off." Recall that Bruce had been "attacked" by the trigger word which is what allowed Batman of Zur-en-arrh to take over in the first place, which would suggest that if Batman of Zur-en-arrh is "off" which means he's back to being Bruce still suffering the effects of the trigger word. This psychological attack is intensified, not just from both Bruce's need to save someone he believes is innocent and who he loves, but also, I believe, from the black and red motiff. I think this was another psychological implant Dr. Hurt planted into Batman's mind to make him more susceptible. Seeing so much red and black in the floor tiles, the curtains, the rose petals, even Jezebel herself caused a sensory overload. This could also explain why Jezebel herself was not effected by the rose petals--because the "poison" was not chemical, but psychological, and that it only effected Batman.

[Retro315]

Here's the REAL 100 million dollar question ...

Why did Joker paint his nails red and black, if he was going to wear white gloves?

[clarapandy]

Here's the REAL 100 million dollar question ...

Why did Joker paint his nails red and black, if he was going to wear white gloves?

why? because he's the joker and he's a mentalist.

[Chiroptera]

Darn it, we had to discuss the potential of Ivy being in on all this and now I'm clinging to this notion and idea even though I know it's a very, very, VERY long shot. A pox upon everyne who considered this idea and gave me false hope of finally having found something about this story I could really enjoy, a pox I say!


Still it really would be a sick and intriguing twist, it wouldn't certainly lift Poison Ivy a few notches on the most nefarious villains meter.

[Kiryu]

Has anyone considered the possibility that the black and red rose petals are NOT poisoned? Notice that when Bruce goes to rescue Jezebel, his mask his off and his word balloons are normal, no longer the blue of the Batman of Zur-en-arrh. And remember Bat-Mite told him that since the Batman of Zur-en-arrh was created to resist psychological attack, that it was only a temporary measure and that it could be over exerted?

Well, I think that by the time Bruce sees Jezebel and starts trying to free her, that is the moment that the Batman of Zur-en-arrh "shut off." Recall that Bruce had been "attacked" by the trigger word which is what allowed Batman of Zur-en-arrh to take over in the first place, which would suggest that if Batman of Zur-en-arrh is "off" which means he's back to being Bruce still suffering the effects of the trigger word. This psychological attack is intensified, not just from both Bruce's need to save someone he believes is innocent and who he loves, but also, I believe, from the black and red motiff. I think this was another psychological implant Dr. Hurt planted into Batman's mind to make him more susceptible. Seeing so much red and black in the floor tiles, the curtains, the rose petals, even Jezebel herself caused a sensory overload. This could also explain why Jezebel herself was not effected by the rose petals--because the "poison" was not chemical, but psychological, and that it only effected Batman.

I think this is far more likely then Jet being Poison Ivy and I like the idea of it myself. But Jet being Ivy would still be a very interesting twist and would let Grant get away with the fact that there was no real relationship between Jezebel and Bruce, at least nothing that would suggest him being willing to leave Batman behind shown in the books. But again, maybe they'll attribute his attraction to the Red/Black motif. I hope there is something, because the one way Grant hasn't set up for RIP in his run is by making the Jezebel Jet/Bruce Wayne relationship as important to the readers as it seems to be to the characters. But I still say she should not be the Mastermind here.

Another count for Poison Ivy though, she was in a room showered with flowers(Would she object to the roses being ripped up for the petals?) and the last shot is the red rose petal on the black glove.

[smoothjokes]

I'm thinking that if Poison Ivy is Jezebel Jet, it has to play off the Joker/Harley Quinn/Poison Ivy love-triangle. Ivy could be doing all this for Harley so she can get her puddin' back. I'm not sure, but after reading #680, it just clicked in my head and made the most sense that Ivy is Jet. With the themes of plants, poisons, seduction, and how quick it happened. I really do think that at the end Poison Ivy is a big-time player. It's obvious that Dr. Hurt is the Black Glove, I'm just thinking it's either Joe Chill, Jr., Thomas Wayne, Jr. or Johnathan Craine (Though I think the the last one is very unlikely).

[mgs]

if it is Poison Ivy, where had she been up till now? O.o

[Dark Master]

And how does Talia, Damian and Ra's all fit in? They have also been parts of this since the whole Black Glove thing started.

[Trey]

Jet has to be Jet. Wouldn't Bats know if it was Ivy in disguise.

Would Bruce Wayne run a background check on Jet when things started to get serious?

[Kiryu]

Jet has to be Jet. Wouldn't Bats know if it was Ivy in disguise.

Would Bruce Wayne run a background check on Jet when things started to get serious?

The Black Glove and it's resources were able to hide and deceive Batman for a long time. I don't think forging an identity is beyond their capabilities.

As for Batman not being able to see through the disguise? He didn't see through her deception. Maybe it has something to do with the Red/Black as a possibly post-hypnotic suggestion as another poster theorized. Or perhaps it is Ivy and she's using her usual method of seduction.

[stillanerd]

Look, for those of you thinking that Jezebel is Poison Ivy or Harley Quinn, why in the world would Morrison bother with that when he already revealed that she was the Black Glove? What would be the point? I know that some of you refuse to believe that it's that simple and heck, even I think it's a little too convenient.

But Morrison said over and over again that he was "surprised" that people didn't get the identity of the Black Glove because the answer was staring right in the face. She goes with the whole black and red pattern not just physically but also symbolically. She is both "Cupid" and the "Devil" in that she inspired love in Bruce like Cupid but, like the devil, she deceived him to his peril. Dr. Hurt even tells Joker that Batman "is in the grip of the Black Glove" AFTER he breaks into the room to free Jezebel as the flower petals are falling. And if that isn't enough, she puts on a pair of Black Gloves. Like it or not, Jezebel is Black Glove.

The only questions that remain is why, along with Hurt, does she want to destroy Batman. Someone suggested earlier that perhaps Thomas Wayne was a member of the original Black Glove glove organization, and that her father was killed as a result of one of their wagers over "good and evil." But since Thomas Wayne was killed by Joe Chill, she decided to take revenge out on the son by doing what Thomas did to her father on his son.

[Brady]

Isn't Jet a well known international celebrity with a long and complicated past? Also, doesn't she run a country? That's a hell of a fake-out for the Black Glove to pull, no matter how powerful they are. If Poison Ivy is Jet, then I think it only really works if they killed off the real Jet and had Ivy replace her shortly before her first meeting with Bruce.

[ThreeDays]

I always thought it was obvious that Jezebel was going to turn out to be against Bruce in all this, so, to me, it was more a matter of how well it would be done than whether it would happen.

Can't wait to see how it all ends.

yep, I can read and yours IS the standard reply whenever this happens. but c'mon using spoiler tags isn't that hard or unreasonable. especially in a "preview thread". but you knew I was gonna say that didn't you

This wasn't really a preview thread. It was posted the day before the issue came out, obviously with the intention of discussing it once it did.

In any case, it did warn for spoilers in the title. There was absolutely no further measure that should have had to be taken. Besides, once you saw the post dates change to October 1st, that should have been all the extra warning you could have wanted.

I always thought that Vertigo was somehow connected to the DCU but now this kind of screws everything up.

Depending on the series, it is.

[Hookpunch]

Just read 680....I am interested to know just how in one issue Morrison is going to change Batman forever, supposedly a fate worse than death. About the only thing I can think of is that Batman stays psychotic indefinitely forcing someone else to take up the cowl and cape.

But then Morrison has been making a point of Batman being prepared for every eventuality ...going back to when he had the heart attack and had to escape from the chair from one of the replacement Batmen, so it must be something he is completely unprepared for.

I also don't understand why he had to lose the voice of rationality (Bat-Mite) in order to confront Hurt etc.

I am not too keen on Jezebel being the Black Glove, I was hoping for something more dramatic than that, I mean introduce a new character just to make them a major villain. If she is the BG then world's greatest detective doesn't really deserve the title.

As someone also said before, what is with the Damian and Talia subplot? So far they could have been totally excluded from this storyline and not much would have changed, they seem superfluous.

Any ideas on how Morrison is going to resolve all this in 30 pages?

[Retro315]

Actually, Talia and the League of Assassins are appropriately brought in at this point. After all ... a powerful secret society with a seductress at the top gunning for Batman? Once that's come to light ... you just don't get away with stealing Talia's corner of the Batman universe ...

Jealousy in a big way ...

And as for Jet being obvious as "the" Black Glove ... it's always been pretty obvious she was involved. The fast relationship, the convenient invitation to a Black Glove event, the black/red contrast. But Morrison shook up the "how involved?" angles by referring to Black Glove as an organization, throwing a handful of other cockamamie Black Glove theories out there, and then our age-old comics expectation for the twist.

I will have to agree though ... weird theories about the red/black motif aside ... the odds of Jezebel Jet being anyone we already know are slim to none. Ivy is a seductress, sure ... but she's never been a great actress. Harley? The idea of her keeping undercover for that long? I can see red hair dye and a spray on tan ... but keeping without giggling or giving in to her trademark mannerisms? That defies her persona.

[Meyvn]

Has anyone considered the possibility that the black and red rose petals are NOT poisoned? Notice that when Bruce goes to rescue Jezebel, his mask his off and his word balloons are normal, no longer the blue of the Batman of Zur-en-arrh. And remember Bat-Mite told him that since the Batman of Zur-en-arrh was created to resist psychological attack, that it was only a temporary measure and that it could be over exerted?


You took the words right out of my mouth. I don't think Jez Jet's got some weird immunity; I just think Zur-En-Arrh ran out of steam when he realized what had happened.

well, actually it says "spoliers", but whatever :wink:




Bat-Mite isn't real. He says so on page 9 (not counting ad pages): "I'm the last fading echo of the voice of reason ..". Look back at every appearance of Bat-Mite. He's always guiding or warning Batman. He is Bruce's instinct or intuition "personified". That's why he can't go with Bruce into Arkham. "Reason won"t fit through this door" ....

Yes, absolutely. He SAID he was imaginary. The only way you could've made Bat-mite's nonexistence clearer is if his last phrase had been "And I'll go to bed at noon."


Anyway, for me the most compelling part of this entire issue was the Joker's shpiel about things not making sense. That there is no puzzle, no pattern to rely on in the end. And despite how much everyone here seems hell-bent on a perfect, clicking ending, I'm not so sure we're going to see one.

[Kiryu]

Yes, absolutely. He SAID he was imaginary. The only way you could've made Bat-mite's nonexistence clearer is if his last phrase had been "And I'll go to bed at noon."


Anyway, for me the most compelling part of this entire issue was the Joker's shpiel about things not making sense. That there is no puzzle, no pattern to rely on in the end. And despite how much everyone here seems hell-bent on a perfect, clicking ending, I'm not so sure we're going to see one.

Curiously enough, Charlie Caligula DID see Bat-Mite in 679.

[Meyvn]

Curiously enough, Charlie Caligula DID see Bat-Mite in 679.

Morrison writes himself into his own stories. I'd say it's a reasonable assumption that he considers imaginary things to be real, philosophically speaking. Assuming that the part you mention ('that thing on your back') is what Charlie was referring to, that's where I think Grant was going.

[Mat001]

Just read 680....I am interested to know just how in one issue Morrison is going to change Batman forever, supposedly a fate worse than death. About the only thing I can think of is that Batman stays psychotic indefinitely forcing someone else to take up the cowl and cape.

But then Morrison has been making a point of Batman being prepared for every eventuality ...going back to when he had the heart attack and had to escape from the chair from one of the replacement Batmen, so it must be something he is completely unprepared for.

Well, it's not just one issue. Next issue will definately set the stage for a different tone in how Batman is when this arc is done. But it's "Final Crisis" and the tie-in that the "fun" really begins.

I also don't understand why he had to lose the voice of rationality (Bat-Mite) in order to confront Hurt etc.

Because what's going to happen next is so irrational, that Bat-Mite will be a crutch. Take it away and all you have left is just the man.

I am not too keen on Jezebel being the Black Glove, I was hoping for something more dramatic than that, I mean introduce a new character just to make them a major villain. If she is the BG then world's greatest detective doesn't really deserve the title.

When he hasn't had his brain messed with, he is the greatest. That was the only way the Black Glove and the Club Of Villains could defeat him, was by being better than him.

As someone also said before, what is with the Damian and Talia subplot? So far they could have been totally excluded from this storyline and not much would have changed, they seem superfluous.

Because their role here sets up "Battle For The Cowl" and what comes afterwards.

Any ideas on how Morrison is going to resolve all this in 30 pages?

He won't. He'll resolve who Black Glove is and what they want. But the following issues that Morrison will write, will handle the rest.

[tfresca]

I'll get flamed but I find this whole thing so poorly written I could care less. I consider this an epic failure and further proof that DC is out of its mind right now. None of their books make sense and I've been a lifelong reader/collector.

[Nippur]

In the last page, when Jezebel sais "Now do you get it?", the lettering is green, and the speech balloon too.
Poison Ivy??

Could it be that some of the members of the CoV are hipnotized old villains? (I don't think so, but who knows...?) :confused:

(Excuse my bad english, I'm from Argentina). :biggrin:

[Nippur]

In the last page, when Jezebel sais "Now do you get it?", the lettering is green, and the speech balloon too.
Poison Ivy??

Could it be that some of the members of the CoV are hipnotized old villains? (I don't think so, but who knows...?) :confused:

My mistake... I realized (too late) that the Joker is the one who sais "Now do you get it". :frown: :biggrin:

[nepenthes]

People are dying because of The Black Glove, even those lame european henchmen (like the ones Joker sliced up).

Has Bruce gotten so ****ed up that he would let something like this play out?

Assuming Bruce IS the black Glove of course

...the idea is that he's gone mental. so is judgement is shot to shit. I mean what part of becoming the Black Glove and tormeting youself is rationale to you? :rolleyes:


it wouldn't certainly lift Poison Ivy a few notches on the most nefarious villains meter.

this would be great. finally something more original than mindcontrolling Superman. it's also why, when Jason was ressurected, I hoped Ivy might have had something to do with it. partly hence the image in the avatar :wink:

I'm thinking that if Poison Ivy is Jezebel Jet, it has to play off the Joker/Harley Quinn/Poison Ivy love-triangle. Ivy could be doing all this for Harley so she can get her puddin' back. I'm not sure, but after reading #680, it just clicked in my head and made the most sense that Ivy is Jet. With the themes of plants, poisons, seduction, and how quick it happened. I really do think that at the end Poison Ivy is a big-time player. It's obvious that Dr. Hurt is the Black Glove, I'm just thinking it's either Joe Chill, Jr., Thomas Wayne, Jr. or Johnathan Craine (Though I think the the last one is very unlikely).

good call, Harley would have play in somehow since Morrisons already made a point of using her. Also cosider that Dini apparently reformed Harley in Detective, what bearing that could have on anything I don't know though.

What be REALLY awesome is if this was actually a plot by Harley & Ivy to get back at Batman AND the Joker, the bastards who made life such misery for them! ha ha. you never know.


yeah and for Jet/Ivy to work if would have to a case of killing of the real Jet and impostering her, I agree
this would be great. finally something a little more original than mind controlling Superman

[Joe no Sleep]

Just to help you out man ... while it hasn't been addressed in-books yet, it's pretty widely agreed that if Bat-Mite is kind of the "Bruce Wayne, sane, logical, voice of reason" personality, hanging out behind the "pure Batman" of Zur En Arrh, then the little freak demon thing riding piggy-back on Bat-Mite himself are all of Bruce's inner demons, which he exorcised in Nanda Parbat during 52.

Almost like a literal visual notion of "having a monkey on your back". Batman will never be fully rid of the pain of his past, but it's not major part of Bruce anymore, it's ... "behind him" ... dun dun dun.

The psychological result of turning Batman back into the hopeful, positive outlook ass-kicker of crime. The uh, hairy chested Silver Age love-god.

Well... that's one idea.

The other is that the green bug is a literal mite - either Bat-mite's true form, or a parasite that funtions as life-support. I think the most obvious answer is that this is Grant's way of making him contemporary without losing the character - sort of like when Alan Grant portrayed him as Bob Overdog's hallucination, cut clued in that he was indeed real, or when Jeph Loeb portrayed him as the embodiment of Joker using Mxyzptlk's powers.

[kalika]

What if the devious twist is that.....they just all jump out and shout "SURPRISE BRUCE! HAPPY BIRTHDAY!"

The roses are not poison. Nobody's dead. Nobody got hurt. Except Bruce. All his villainous friends got together to f**k him up for his birthday. Jet is Ivy, other villains are hidden in the other Black Glove members.

When they say, "now he knows" maybe it's, "now he realizes this is our twisted surprise birthday present! we've just been messing with his head for the past twenty issues, pumped him up full of drugs and subtly suggested he wear a tattered purple batman costume. HAHAHAHA Bruce, you walked right into it....hahahahah!"

Well, I know it's pretty ridiculous, but not as ridiculous as asking me to believe he fell like such a douche for Jez! :tongue:

[AJM]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but doesn't it make more sense that Jezebel is Harley Quinn? Jezebel and Joker seem pretty friendly at the end and of course there's the red and black thing... i thought of her ages ago but i thought it was too obvious, plus i absolutely 100% detest the character.

As for the Black Glove, i'm more confused than ever. I don't think it's Jezebel but she maybe works for him / her / them / it - although if she did turn out to be Harley, then maybe her and Joker have been using the Black Glove organization all along, maybe only Joker knows it's Harley? It's a possibility, but not one i'd be happy with.

But... it was Morrison's hints in interviews that confuse me most, all that stuff about the "most twisted bad guy that everyone on the planet knows." I still think there's only 2 characters that fit that description - the Joker and the Devil himself. I suppose we'll find out soon enough, but i have to say that i was quite disappointed with this episode, it was the worst so far for me - and i've been loving it up till now. I liked the Joker's tongue idea but i thought Daniels' art was pretty uninspiring when it came to Joker (but great the rest of the time). And the Joker's dialogue was somewhat trite and inconsequential too. Oh well, hopefully the (double-sized?) final issue will make up for it...

[Dark Master]

Guys, it's Jet, the next preview even says it's the final showdown between them. Just accept it. Is it really that bad for her to be the Black Glove? Whats your problem? Thats it's too simple an awnser? Morrsion said it was from the beginning.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

It's just that "new character is introduced that we've never seen before, suddenly becomes all important and special to the main character for no good reason...oh, oops, she's the bad guy" is pretty cliche and dull...and I can't help but think Grant wouldn't have based his big story around such a tired plot twist, and there must be something more to it.

[Don't pee in the (Dead)pool]

Guys, it's Jet, the next preview even says it's the final showdown between them. Just accept it. Is it really that bad for her to be the Black Glove? Whats your problem? Thats it's too simple an awnser? Morrsion said it was from the beginning.

But Grant said it was someone whom had been around for a long time, in fact someone whom had been around since the beginning of Batman.
Yes, Jet's a member of the Black Glove but she's not THE Black Glove. The true mastermind will show up in episode 6...

[Dark Master]

The Beggining of Batman?

That would be this:
Batman's origin story is first established in a sequence of panels in Detective Comics #33 (November 1939) that is later reproduced in the comic book Batman #1 (Spring 1940), but the mugger is not given a name until Batman #47 (June-July 1948). In that issue, Batman discovers that Joe Chill, the small-time crime boss he is investigating, is none other than the man who killed his parents. Batman confronts him and reveals his secret identity. Chill, frightened, seeks protection from his henchmen. Once they learn that Chill's actions led to the hated Batman's existence, they turn on their boss and fatally shoot him - just before they realize how valuable his knowledge is to them. Before a dying Chill has a chance to reveal Batman's identity, the Dark Knight intervenes and finishes the goons; Chill dies in Batman's arms addressing him by his true name.

In Detective Comics #235 (1956), Batman learns that Chill was not a mere robber, but actually a hitman who murdered the Waynes on orders from a Mafia boss named Lew Moxon.

In the 1980 miniseries The Untold Legend of the Batman, Alfred Pennyworth reminisces that Joe Chill is the son of one Alice Chilton, one-time caretaker of young Bruce Wayne.

[AJM]

Guys, it's Jet, the next preview even says it's the final showdown between them. Just accept it. Is it really that bad for her to be the Black Glove? Whats your problem? Thats it's too simple an awnser? Morrsion said it was from the beginning.

My problem with that is that it's so glaringly obvious, tired, uninspired, wholly unoriginal and just plain boring. And why would the preview give away the answer to the mystery that's making DC money right now? The previews also say that the shocking truth will be revealed... i think there's clearly more to Jezebel Jet than we know, but it's highly unlikely that the answer to this whole story is that she's the bad guy. For one thing, Morrison said that "he's" been there since the beginning and that "he's" the biggest bad guy he could think of.

Doesn't the Devil take many forms? Just a thought.

[AJM]

The Beggining of Batman?

That would be this:
Batman's origin story is first established in a sequence of panels in Detective Comics #33 (November 1939) that is later reproduced in the comic book Batman #1 (Spring 1940), but the mugger is not given a name until Batman #47 (June-July 1948). In that issue, Batman discovers that Joe Chill, the small-time crime boss he is investigating, is none other than the man who killed his parents. Batman confronts him and reveals his secret identity. Chill, frightened, seeks protection from his henchmen. Once they learn that Chill's actions led to the hated Batman's existence, they turn on their boss and fatally shoot him - just before they realize how valuable his knowledge is to them. Before a dying Chill has a chance to reveal Batman's identity, the Dark Knight intervenes and finishes the goons; Chill dies in Batman's arms addressing him by his true name.

In Detective Comics #235 (1956), Batman learns that Chill was not a mere robber, but actually a hitman who murdered the Waynes on orders from a Mafia boss named Lew Moxon.

In the 1980 miniseries The Untold Legend of the Batman, Alfred Pennyworth reminisces that Joe Chill is the son of one Alice Chilton, one-time caretaker of young Bruce Wayne.

What's your point?

[Dark Master]

What's your point?

That if it's someone who's been around since the beginning of Batman then look to the beginning for your answer.

[AJM]

Just had another thought about Morrison's clues about Batman's fate -

He said that the Batman in Final Crisis is Bruce, but not as we know him. Has Nightwing appeared in Final Crisis yet? I don't think so but i could be wrong. I'm thinking that the Batman in Final Crisis is Dick Grayson pretending to be Bruce... Yes, i'm sure Superman would notice etc. but anything can be explained in comics - all he uses for a disguise is a pair of glasses, after all. Maybe Bruce has truly lost his mind and he's been kept in Arkham while Nightwing poses as Batman so no-one will find out? Hence we have a new Batman - as we know we're going to get - but the old Batman's still around too, and no-one actually dies. Is Batman being held in Arkham the "fate worse than death" that Morrison talked of? He's been wanting to do this since 1989 when he wrote Arkham Asylum...

[AJM]

That if it's someone who's been around since the beginning of Batman then look to the beginning for your answer.

Okay, then what's your conclusion?

[Dark Master]

Okay, then what's your conclusion?

I'm not sure, I just think the answer will be a simple one as Morrison said.

[AJM]

I'm not sure, I just think the answer will be a simple one as Morrison said.

Well that only gives us Alfred or Joe Chill. It can't be Alfred and i don't see what Chill's motivation would be - whether or not he faked his suicide (as Morrison showed when he re-wrote Chill's fate recently), Batman thinks he's dead, which is exactly what he wanted. Chill wanted peace and he got it either way. A lot of people have made the point that we don't actually see Chill die, but i suspect that was because DC don't want to use graphic images of suicide in a comic with young readers and not because he's still alive.

Lew Moxon is too obscure, so the only other option would be that Doctor Hurt truly is Thomas Wayne... which seems unlikely. Alfred certainly doesn't think so...

[BruceLeeroy]

The joker would never use the word "Wikipedia", ever. Other than that, it was an awesome issue.

[stillanerd]

The only logical answer, if it means the beginning of the Batman character (i.e. 1939), would have to be Bruce Wayne himself, or rather the Bruce Wayne who would have existed had not Batman been around. Or maybe it's even the boy Bruce Wayne was before his parents died. Which of course would mean that Morrison is taking cues from the Untold Legend of Batman.

But how can that work? Well, what if during those isolation experiments, Hurt found, or perhaps created that "Bruce Wayne" and that "Bruce" resented Batman and what he was doing to his life. Maybe even "Bruce" talked to Hurt while Batman was undergoing his testing. Maybe this "Bruce" was the one who came up with the lie that Alfred was his real father and that Thomas Wayne killed his mother because "Bruce" might have thought that if that were true, then everything about Batman would be a lie, and also it was true in a metaphorical sense. Alfred, after the death of Bruce's parents, has been more of a father to Bruce for most of his life, and Thomas did kill his wife by going after Joe Chill when he tried to take Martha's pearls.

Batman, however, was made aware of this "Bruce" and wrote about him in the Black Dossier, including instructions on how to defeat him should the need arrive, cryptically written, of course, so that if anyone did get their hands on it, they wouldn't be aware of it. But of course, all knowledge of this was suppressed from Batman.

My guess is that Jezebel Jet found the Black Dossier and the information about "Bruce." She tore it out and she, along with Hurt and the Club of Villains, used that information to get in touch with "Bruce" via the trigger word, who in turn gave them instructions on how to proceed. And as for the instructions on how to defeat "Bruce?" Well, considering how "Bruce" is psychological in nature, and the the Batman of Zur-en-arrh was created by Batman to resist psychological attack, the most likely place would be where the Batman of Zur-en-arrh believes he gets his power--the "Bat Radia." Perhaps Batman hid those instructions--maybe a counter word to break the programming itself--inside that beat up transistor radio.

EDIT: Oh, and here's another wild idea. What if Daimen is not actually Bruce and Talia's son. What if he is actually a clone of Bruce Wayne, as well as Morrison giving us a clue as to the identity of the Black Glove--it's the "young Bruce Wayne."

[AJM]

What if Daimen is not actually Bruce and Talia's son. What if he is actually a clone of Bruce Wayne, as well as Morrison giving us a clue as to the identity of the Black Glove--it's the "young Bruce Wayne."

He already is, kind of. It was revealed in Batman #666 that Damien was grown in an artificial womb. Bruce and Talia's real son was left on the doorstep of an orphanage after Talia faked a miscarriage in Son Of The Demon. So there's definitely another, natural son of the Batman out there too, while Damien was created artificially.

[stillanerd]

He already is, kind of. It was revealed in Batman #666 that Damien was grown in an artificial womb. Bruce and Talia's real son was left on the doorstep of an orphanage after Talia faked a miscarriage in Son Of The Demon. So there's definitely another, natural son of the Batman out there too, while Damien was created artificially.

Well, technically, Son of the Demon--at least that version--was retconned. But if I understood it, the claim is that Damien, while artificially grown, was still was technically Bruce and Talia's son because he shared both their DNA. But remember Robin at the very beginning of R.I.P. asked Alfred about the blood tests to determine whether or not this was the case, and Alfred not only told Tim and Bruce did this, but that they are going to tell him what the results were when the time was right? Robin has already has been told that Damien is Bruce and Talia's son, so why is he not allowed to look at those test results? Unless of course, Damien's DNA is an exact match to Bruce's and that there is no trace of Talia's at all. Which means that, if Damien is Bruce's clone and not his son, then Talia would have very little hold over him since she's not his biological mother, but Bruce would since they are, in a sense, the same person.

[AJM]

Well, technically, Son of the Demon--at least that version--was retconned.

I don't think that matters now - Morrison said he imagined that everything in Batman's past actually happened, thus we have the reference to the isolation chamber and Zur-En-Arrh from way back, so who knows what's official continuity anymore.

I hate all that retconning nonsense anyway, and i don't see what the importance of continuity is either. It's all such a mess these days that it's redundant anyway.

[Mat001]

Just had another thought about Morrison's clues about Batman's fate -

He said that the Batman in Final Crisis is Bruce, but not as we know him. Has Nightwing appeared in Final Crisis yet? I don't think so but i could be wrong. I'm thinking that the Batman in Final Crisis is Dick Grayson pretending to be Bruce... Yes, i'm sure Superman would notice etc. but anything can be explained in comics - all he uses for a disguise is a pair of glasses, after all. Maybe Bruce has truly lost his mind and he's been kept in Arkham while Nightwing poses as Batman so no-one will find out? Hence we have a new Batman - as we know we're going to get - but the old Batman's still around too, and no-one actually dies. Is Batman being held in Arkham the "fate worse than death" that Morrison talked of? He's been wanting to do this since 1989 when he wrote Arkham Asylum...

Dick and Tim are in "Final Crisis" #3, during the Article X draft scene.

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk27/Darth_Ermac/DC/DC-2/DC-3/fc3-pan5.jpg

And as I mentioned earlier, Bruce calls Superman by his human name. Dick and Tim would just call him Superman. Not to mention that they are shorter than Bruce and Clark would know.

The joker would never use the word "Wikipedia", ever.

Why?

[AJM]

Dick and Tim are in "Final Crisis" #3, during the Article X draft scene.

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk27/Darth_Ermac/DC/DC-2/DC-3/fc3-pan5.jpg

And as I mentioned earlier, Bruce calls Superman by his human name. Dick and Tim would just call him Superman. Not to mention that they are shorter than Bruce and Clark would know.

Oh well.

I really don't think i'm going to like the end of R.I.P., especially if it has to tie in to Final Crisis...

[AlistairCrane]

I don't think that matters now - Morrison said he imagined that everything in Batman's past actually happened, thus we have the reference to the isolation chamber and Zur-En-Arrh from way back, so who knows what's official continuity anymore.

I hate all that retconning nonsense anyway, and i don't see what the importance of continuity is either. It's all such a mess these days that it's redundant anyway.

Just because Morrison says it's in continuity doesn't mean it's actually in continuity.

On top of that, if something that happened in, let's say, 1956, is in continuity, then it obviously didn't happen to the modern Batman in the same way it happened then--it would've happened in a revised way to fit in with the modern era.

Either way, SOTD is not in continuity, and Damian may not even be Bruce's son.

[DavidAllred]

I'll say it again. I like Grant Morrison, I LOVED his All-Star Superman, I think he can be a very talented writer... And I think this is quite possibly the worst thing he's ever written.

I agree. And Final Crisis is right up there with this. It's not bad, it's just not what Grant is capable of and what he's produced in the past. But I'm saving any real specific criticism until the whole arc plays out.

[Crimson Knightman]

I really wish the Black Glove was the Mad Hatter because...

Red/Black + Jezebel =Queen of Hearts
The Joker could be like the Cheshire Cat, leaving clues and references to the "rabbit hole" and "hats and gloves" while showing a plastered grin.
Imagery of playing cards
Club of Villains wear a mask, headpiece of some kind.
Plus the "Mad Hatter" moniker is well known.

Motivation is very cloudy though but I think the Mad Hatter could work but it's probably not likely.

[AJM]

Just because Morrison says it's in continuity doesn't mean it's actually in continuity.

On top of that, if something that happened in, let's say, 1956, is in continuity, then it obviously didn't happen to the modern Batman in the same way it happened then--it would've happened in a revised way to fit in with the modern era.

Either way, SOTD is not in continuity, and Damian may not even be Bruce's son.

Apparently Morrison admitted that he didn't re-read Son Of The Demon before he invented Damian, which is why there's a different origin. So therefore the events in Son Of The Demon must be in continuity - this is where Bruce and Talia had the encounter that spawned a baby - but the story and result isn't? See what i mean? This continuity stuff is just a mess, why even bother?

[zhinxy]

Re: The Harley Quinn-Jezebel theory, I'd had the idea long ago, but then discarded it as being A. Unnecessary, B. Rather dumb, C. Hard to work into continuity with other titles, but that's RIP for you, and D. EWWWWW. E. The comments about him following Joker down a rabbithole become unnecessarily icky-funny.

I still hope it's not true, and I'm rather fond of the idea that she is the New God Jezebelle, myself... However.

When we first see Jezebel, in Batman 656... Note that she is wearing large cuff bracelets, a collar, and braided hair that could evoke the idea of tassles. She stands in front of a painting featuring a wide blue eye, and a thought bubble seems to form behind her saying "WOW" in her colors of black and red.

http://s222.photobucket.com/albums/dd151/zhinxy/?action=view&current=eatcake.jpg

As for her mannerisms being apparent, well, something about this says Harley to me: and a diamond shape in the panel... the first and definitely not the last time she's associated with diamonds in the art.

http://s222.photobucket.com/albums/dd151/zhinxy/?action=view&current=eatcake.jpg


(Oh, I gots me tons more maybe-clue panels, but I'll spare you)

So far in this arc, incidentally, there have been references to a person wearing another's skin, Bruce called the Dead Man's hand a Harlequin snakeskin, and Harley herself already impersonated a speech therapist she'd murdered for several months before the events of 663.

As for Ivy? Well, I refuse to believe that Bruce EVER starts dating an attractive redhaired woman without being satisfied it's not Ivy. I refuse to believe Morrison writes a comic where Bruce starts dating an attractive redhaired woman and lets her know she's Batman and she turns out to be Poison Ivy. Seduction is her usual M.O. So what would be the twist?
And I think she'd have had a different reaction to being handed such a rare blue rose, somehow. :) Hey, maybe "give her a cut blue rose and see how she reacts" IS Bruce's Redheaded Date Test?

[kalika]

E. The comments about him following Joker down a rabbithole become unnecessarily icky-funny.

Oh thanks! That took me a minute and then i gave my computer screen a long overdue shower. :biggrin: Bruce's sloppy Joker seconds....holy moly....!


When we first see Jezebel, in Batman 656... Note that she is wearing large cuff bracelets, a collar, and braided hair that could evoke the idea of tassles. She stands in front of a painting featuring a wide blue eye, and a thought bubble seems to form behind her saying "WOW" in her colors of black and red.
http://s222.photobucket.com/albums/dd151/zhinxy/?action=view&current=eatcake.jpg.........

Thanks for the flash backs to those panels, now...AGAIN....I'm shocked at what a douche Bruce is for falling for this chick. She's hot, so he's impressed? Soooo NOT what I see in Bruce Wayne. nuh-uh...he's surrounded by skin-tight leather wearing babes all the time, why would THIS chick get his attention beyond anybody else???

Bruce, I expect so much better from you!!!!! tsk tsk :frown:

[Valhalla]

I had the same thought that it's Harley.

But then again I've had lots of Theories.

It's Bruce Wayne.
That one still up there.

The Joker is behind it all.
Just to show Batman what it's like in his Head. That's where Harley comes in.

Some so far out of the box they're not even worth mentioning.

[flapjaxx]

I'm shocked at what a douche Bruce is for falling for this chick. She's hot, so he's impressed?

No. She (apparently) witnessed her own rich and powerful father being gunned down before her eyes, and this endears her to Bruce.

[He who laughs last]

I had the same thought that it's Harley.

But then again I've had lots of Theories.

It's Bruce Wayne.
That one still up there.

The Joker is behind it all.
Just to show Batman what it's like in his Head. That's where Harley comes in.

Some so far out of the box they're not even worth mentioning.

I still would not be surprised if Morrison went the xorn route from his X-men days. The obvious answer was there all along, under a mask. A clearly orchestrated plot by his classic rogues' gallery with an unveil near the end as the CoV loses the guises they have adopted. I wish I had more supporting evidence of who might be whom, but I'll just call it a hunch for now. Jezebel being Poison Ivy, Dr Hurt being either Joe Chill or Thomas Wayne Jr, and the reamainder of the CoV revealing themselves after Nightwing unmasked Scorpiana in Arkham when he wakes up next ish. I am doubtful of these assertions, coming from a fan of Detective for the most part, but Grant has left me with enough doubt as well as the possibilities contained within this arc.

I'm not a typical Morrison fanboy, but he has done very well in keeping the masses guessing and speculating on who the CoV might be as well as the Black Glove. Given Grant's flare for the psychological bent, I think a Fight Club type reveal is well within the realm of possibility. In the end, Bruce will be destroyed on a mental and philosophical level, unable to carry out the promise he made to himself as Batman.

The last few arcs peaked up my interest in the series as a whole, and the thought Bruce not being the Batman thoroughly intrigues me. BW is done for the next year or so, once FC closes. As long as I have been reading comics, few things have me go back and reread what was previously told, because the possibilities themselves have been so tightly woven, where even the most obvious clues could be a red herring.

Overall, grant has delivered very well with his run on this book.

[He who laughs last]

Stolen from the google:

"Pierrot Lunaire: A Joker-esque foe of the Musketeer whose trademark is death by mime.
King Kraken: A disfigured deep sea diver turned pirate whose weapon of choice is a high voltage electric rifle. A foe of Wingman.
Charlie Caligula: A madman whose schemes are designed to coincide with Julius Cesear and the Roman Empire. A foe of the Legionary.
Scorpiana: An assassin whose calling card is the blue scorpion. A foe of the Guacho.
El Sombrero: A lunatic in a luchadore mask who designs fantastic and almost inescapable death traps for anyone who's willing to pay. A foe of the Guach
Springheeled Jack: A mad bomber type responsible for murdering the first Knight by making him ingest a bomb.

There are others in CoV like le Bossu of course, but who do you think would be under the mask if Grant decided to pull a Morrison like in X-men? Meaning who do you think could be a classic villain under the guise of another foe for the aforementioned rogues?

Again, I have little to cite from this run other than my own baseless speculations but I feel the reveals on the last few pages of the next issue might have this in-store as RIP draws to a close. Look again at the criminals in the CoV and decide how their physical characteristics and themes may be related to Batman's classic gallery. They all know his real identity because the Riddler might have spilled it after Hush. The humiliation alone among Gotham's elite pervs and rich degenerates in the set up could be the final straw of a compounded problem if the Joker could mastermind and coordinated with others' in Bruce's list of people he has sent to Arkham over the years.

Again, I am merely asking questions to spark thought and debate. I have little to go on throughtout this ard to back up the theories I propose.

[Retro315]

I agree. And Final Crisis is right up there with this. It's not bad, it's just not what Grant is capable of and what he's produced in the past. But I'm saving any real specific criticism until the whole arc plays out.

The mark of a good writer, I'd think, is to try something different whether it ends up being popular or not. You'll never know what you're capable of unless you throw every crazy idea you've ever had out there for people to see.


Red/Black + Jezebel =Queen of Hearts
The Joker could be like the Cheshire Cat, leaving clues and references to the "rabbit hole" and "hats and gloves" while showing a plastered grin.
Imagery of playing cards
Club of Villains wear a mask, headpiece of some kind.
Plus the "Mad Hatter" moniker is well known.


That's pretty inspired, actually ... Mad Hatter also knows a thing or twenty about screwing with people's brains, psychological trigger words, and stuff like that. Joker has always been the Cheshire Cat of Batman's world, but using him as a literal analog to the Cheshire Cat in some sick game ... that'd be new and make sense.

Another notion with all the card references ... the Black Glove could be Amos Fortune, and all this a plot of what's left of the Royal Flush Gang. Joker would play the part of the Wild Card. The Club of Villains are just flunkies ... Hurt might be the King, Jezebel the Queen, Jack, Ten and Ace I don't know. Honor Jackson could be one, etc ... there were also the three psychotic Batman wannabes.

Or, Jezebel Jet could be Marsha, Queen of Diamonds, from the old Batman TV Show ... revamped for DCU nowadays.

[AlistairCrane]

Apparently Morrison admitted that he didn't re-read Son Of The Demon before he invented Damian, which is why there's a different origin. So therefore the events in Son Of The Demon must be in continuity - this is where Bruce and Talia had the encounter that spawned a baby - but the story and result isn't? See what i mean? This continuity stuff is just a mess, why even bother?

Huh? How the eff did you come to that conclusion?

Son of the Demon was wiped out of continuity by stuff like Zero Hour and Final Crisis. The Damian spawn is completely different, and again, Batman may not even be his father.

[Hollowpoint_Ninja]

I'm a little confused by the story but I'm missing everything from the beginning of Ra's Return until the beginning of RIP so hopefully if I can track down the missing issues and reread it all it will all make sense. I'm still enjoying it though, but then there hasnt been anything of Grants I read and didnt enjoy. :smile:

[just_a_guy]

I really wish the Black Glove was the Mad Hatter because...

Red/Black + Jezebel =Queen of Hearts
The Joker could be like the Cheshire Cat, leaving clues and references to the "rabbit hole" and "hats and gloves" while showing a plastered grin.
Imagery of playing cards
Club of Villains wear a mask, headpiece of some kind.
Plus the "Mad Hatter" moniker is well known.

Motivation is very cloudy though but I think the Mad Hatter could work but it's probably not likely.

Now that would make this story even better. even though it might make some people mad. but i like the idea, but i just cant see it happening :frown:

[AJM]

Huh? How the eff did you come to that conclusion?

Son of the Demon was wiped out of continuity by stuff like Zero Hour and Final Crisis. The Damian spawn is completely different, and again, Batman may not even be his father.

I'm pretty sure that Morrison confirmed that the "night you and i shared under the desert moon above the tropic of cancer" that Talia refers to in Batman #656 - and which spawned Damian - is from Son Of The Demon, so wouldn't that now make it an acceptable part of continuity? Just like the isolation experiment and trip to Zur-En-Arrh from Batman #113 and #156 that are currently being referenced in R.I.P.?

You also said "Just because Morrison says it's in continuity doesn't mean it's actually in continuity." That isn't strictly true - Morrison has to run everything by DC's editors, making them ultimately responsible for what he is allowed to use, rewrite and allude to - and they've permitted him to take his pick from Batman's history, completely irrespective of accepted continuity (which was exactly what Morrison wanted to do). So can you can blame them for any confusion.

[stillanerd]

You know, it's occurred to me that we should be taking more into consideration what I think there is something we have to take into consideration what the Joker tells Batman with regards to his "wikipedia" statement. Basically, the Joker (and thus Morrison) is telling Batman (and the reader) that we're making things a lot more complicated than they actually are. Of course, given the amount of misdirection and clues and symbols Morrison is using, we, the readers believe there must be something complicated going on, that if we decipher the meanings he's planted, it will all make sense. But the trick with Morrison is, just like in his X-Men run, is that the solutions are actually very simple ones; they only seem complex because of all the imagery and wordplay he uses to distract us, just like any magician would.

So, what would be the simple solutions to some of the mysteries about R.I.P.? Well, the simple answer, as suggested in this issue, is that Jezebel Jet (or as one person on some forum called her "Treachery McBoobs") is the Black Glove. Sure, it's obvious, especially if you compare her to the various "red and black" motiff that has been popping up, but, then again, that's the whole point.

Another mystery, who is Simon Hurt? Is he Thomas Wayne still alive? John Mayhew? Joe Chill's son? The devil? Well, the simple answer would be none of the above. He's simply Dr. Simon Hurt, the guy who once performed isolation experiments on Batman. So why then does he hate Batman and going through all of this just elaborate set-up to destroy him? Well remember that Hurt was also, once upon a time, trying to re-create Batman, the "Three Ghosts of Batman" as it were, in case Batman was out of commission. He also had Batman undergo the isolation experiements to see how he ticked, then tried to have these Batmen fight him. And Batman defeated them. My guess is that this really put a number on Dr. Hurt's ego, that he went through all this work to try and help Batman, only to have him "ruin" it. Thus, his radical means of trying to improve them to what they became today, not to mention the post-hypnotic suggestions to make Batman forget. But still, it wasn't enough. Even though Batman no longer remembered, Hurt did, and his ego was still bruised. Nothing more simple than that.

But what about his claims he's Thomas Wayne, that Alfred is Bruce's real father, not to mention the photographic evidence Commissioner Gordon got showing Thomas and Martha being associated with John Mayhew that appears to support that theory? Well, recall that in that same issue, it's was stated that the Black Glove organization has planted false evidence before. Also remember the line in this latest issue when one of the party members asks Hurt whether Batman is "another one of his actors." Well, considering how many members of the Club of Villians there are, not to mention Hurt, and Jezebel, there's certainly more than enough of them to pretend to play various roles via disguises, make-up, and costuming, pose in front of non-digital cameras to make it look more authentic. Not to mention write up a few bogus notes from a private detective. Why? Well, to bait Gordon to go to Wayne Manor, where of course he faces all kinds of booby traps. So why does Hurt tell the same story to Alfred? To let them know what they've been up to.

And what about Jezebel? Why would she want to go after Bruce like this? Well, the simple answer would be that, unlike herself when her father died, Bruce devoted his life to just stopping crime when he could have done so much more with wealth and influence. And maybe she learned a thing or two about Bruce Wayne's parents, of the associations they had with characters like John Mayhew. Maybe it was Mayhew or the Black Glove organization who hired someone to have her father assassinated. Maybe Thomas Wayne was once upon a time a member of the Black Glove himself, perhaps taking part in a wager on whether "good or evil" would win, and it was the one and only time in his life where he and his wife were "corrupted," then "punished." As a result, Jezebel went "Madame Defarge" and started going after anyone associated with them. Maybe by next issue, all the attendants who came to watch Batman rescue Jezebel will have been poisoned by her and Hurt, that they joined the organization simply to destroy it from within.

Okay, maybe the solutions and motives might be a little more elaborate, or maybe they're not the solutions at all. However, I get the feeling, especially with this issue, that the answers do not involve complex re-working of the Wayne family or elaborate connections to a great degree or that they make things more complex. I think what Morrison is attempting here is that sometimes, the most damaging things in our lives are things which are very simple and that, to explain them, we make them more complex than they really are.

[stillanerd]

Oh, and going on the simple kick, perhaps the way Bruce will be able to defeat the Black Glove and the Club of Villains is for "Batman" to die and defeat them as himself without the mask and gadgets and the cape. Just plain old Bruce Wayne.

[by1968]

So Bruce Wayne as a child watches his parents die and becomes Batman. One of the adolescents he takes under his wing is brutally beaten and killed by the Joker and that does nothing to him. He has his back broken and comes back as good as ever. And those are just a few "highlights" from all the horrible things he's been through in his life.

Now he has a brief romance with a woman and her betrayal is going to scar him and be a fate worse than death? That's going to psychologically crush him after everything he's seen and done in his career? I'm not buying it, there has to be a lot more to it than that.

So now what if Jezebel is not betraying him? What if it is his mind playing tricks on him from what he has been going through and the suggestions the Joker is giving him? And what if Batman kills the woman he loves in this weakened state and then comes to realize that she was innocent. Living with the memory of killing the woman you loved, doing something (killing) that betrays your own code? To me, that is a fate worse than death.

I guess we'll all find out though in about a month.

[HaroldAllnut]

I guess we'll all find out though in about a month.

I wouldn't be so sure, by1968. We still have to read "Last Rites," the upcoming two-parter.

[ZT4]

The icing on the cake for The Black Glove is that Bruce will be so spiritually broken, he'll be salvaged and find love again in Talia's arms, .for him, this is sort of like The Lazarus Pit for Talia from "Death and The Maidens", they'll be both so fracked up they'll be welcome to each other and be an eventual threat for whoever takes the cowel in 2009

[stillanerd]

So Bruce Wayne as a child watches his parents die and becomes Batman. One of the adolescents he takes under his wing is brutally beaten and killed by the Joker and that does nothing to him. He has his back broken and comes back as good as ever. And those are just a few "highlights" from all the horrible things he's been through in his life.

Now he has a brief romance with a woman and her betrayal is going to scar him and be a fate worse than death? That's going to psychologically crush him after everything he's seen and done in his career? I'm not buying it, there has to be a lot more to it than that.

So now what if Jezebel is not betraying him? What if it is his mind playing tricks on him from what he has been going through and the suggestions the Joker is giving him? And what if Batman kills the woman he loves in this weakened state and then comes to realize that she was innocent. Living with the memory of killing the woman you loved, doing something (killing) that betrays your own code? To me, that is a fate worse than death.

I guess we'll all find out though in about a month.

I'm guessing that's it's going to play out similar to those lines and yeah, it does seem hard to swallow given all the shit Bruce has been put through. The only thing is that, rather than Jezebel being brainwashed and actually innocent, I think it's pretty clear that Jezebel has been the bad guy all along. It fits too well given the whole red and black theme and all the times she's questioned Bruce. Even before she supposedly knew him as Batman, she was giving him all kinds of grief about how, with his money, he could be doing so much more, even trying to guilt trip him by saying people were starving in her own country. I do think, however, that Bruce might end up causing her death, due to being so horribly mindraped and that, in the knowledge that he allowed her to die--even though she wasn't as innocent as she let on--will make him wonder if he should continue being Batman if he can't live up to his own moral code.

I also believe, as I stated earlier in the thread, that the revelation will come that Jezebel, Hurt, and the Black Glove Organization got the information on how to defeat Batman from Batman himself. Once again, it goes back to the isolation experiments. Maybe there was a part of Bruce, perhaps the part of him blamed him for the murder of his own parents, who resented Batman from having the life he deserved. Perhaps, there were times in which, thanks to Dr. Hurt's trigger word, Jezebel and Hury were able to talk to this "Bruce" and learn about how to defeat Batman. And of course, Bruce would have no memory of this. This would also explain why Bruce is attracted to Jezebel from the get go and why it seems like he's always known her--because he has met her before and, thanks to post hypnotic suggestions, was able to fall in love with her.

EDIT: Of course, if it's supposed to be the most shocking thing in the past 70 years of Batman, maybe Morrison will reveal that Jezebel Jet is actually the son of Joe Chill wanting revenge of Batman for making his father commit suicide, and that he killed the real Jezebel Jet along with her family, got himself a sex change operation, and stole her identity. Hey, it worked for Ace Ventura.

[Mat001]

There are others in CoV like le Bossu of course, but who do you think would be under the mask if Grant decided to pull a Morrison like in X-men? Meaning who do you think could be a classic villain under the guise of another foe for the aforementioned rogues?

Again, I have little to cite from this run other than my own baseless speculations but I feel the reveals on the last few pages of the next issue might have this in-store as RIP draws to a close. Look again at the criminals in the CoV and decide how their physical characteristics and themes may be related to Batman's classic gallery. They all know his real identity because the Riddler might have spilled it after Hush. The humiliation alone among Gotham's elite pervs and rich degenerates in the set up could be the final straw of a compounded problem if the Joker could mastermind and coordinated with others' in Bruce's list of people he has sent to Arkham over the years.

Again, I am merely asking questions to spark thought and debate. I have little to go on throughtout this ard to back up the theories I propose.

Well, Nygma would've had to spill his guts before Batman revealed that he knew that he was behind Hush and Clayface, because it is the fear of Ra's al Ghul that Bruce claims would keep Riddler silent about what he has learned. So I don't see the Riddler spilling his guts and willing to face Ra's, even after his death.

[$5 Milkshake]

I'm so excited that I have no clue where R.I.P is gonna end up! It's exciting.

I absolutely love Grant's Batman. And Le Bossu. I want to know what Joker did to his face!!

[Valhalla]

I'm so excited that I have no clue where R.I.P is gonna end up! It's exciting.

I absolutely love Grant's Batman. And Le Bossu. I want to know what Joker did to his face!!

Having not read Batman since the early Nineties I was wondering the same.

[FanRealm]

Batman #680 and the best and latest comics reviewed in this week's latest vid.
Check it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lArz8y4dDp8

[Crimson]

So Bruce Wayne as a child watches his parents die and becomes Batman. One of the adolescents he takes under his wing is brutally beaten and killed by the Joker and that does nothing to him. He has his back broken and comes back as good as ever. And those are just a few "highlights" from all the horrible things he's been through in his life.

Now he has a brief romance with a woman and her betrayal is going to scar him and be a fate worse than death? That's going to psychologically crush him after everything he's seen and done in his career? I'm not buying it, there has to be a lot more to it than that.

So now what if Jezebel is not betraying him? What if it is his mind playing tricks on him from what he has been going through and the suggestions the Joker is giving him? And what if Batman kills the woman he loves in this weakened state and then comes to realize that she was innocent. Living with the memory of killing the woman you loved, doing something (killing) that betrays your own code? To me, that is a fate worse than death.

I guess we'll all find out though in about a month.

I like this better then Jet being behind everything.

[Retro315]

I absolutely love Grant's Batman. And Le Bossu. I want to know what Joker did to his face!!

I honestly hope it's straight out of TDK and he cut a grin onto Bossu's face ... this new "mental torture", "thin white duke of death", "harlequin from hell" Joker is all well and good ... but without hitting the streets with it there's really no way to see how that interpretation really stacks up.

That's the one thing I don't like about having his pow-wow go down in Arkham ... because I don't want to see it be a "what happens in Arkham stays in Arkham" sort of deal ... I mean ... who's to say that this new Joker persona isn't made for just this purpose ... to torture Batman in this harlequin mind-f**k, but it's not a style meant for the streets?

We sure haven't seen it on the streets in any other Bat-books ... and this new cynical, provocative Joker would do well hitting the whole world with his outlook, not just Batman, who in his own hopeful way is even more cynical than Joker.

[Don't pee in the (Dead)pool]

I like this better then Jet being behind everything.

Yeah, I still think Jezebel is another Red Herring and that the true mastermind will be revealed in the next issue.
I could be wrong, but Grant's dropped a lot of clues and hints towards RIP that don't specifically lead to Jezebel Jet. Instead they lead towards either Bruce Wayne, Alfred Pennyworth, Thomas Wayne, Martha Wayne, Dr. Hurt or the Joker. I just have this niggling feeling that there's one last twist in store because, let's be honest here, folks, Grant Morrison is writing the story.

[samlexton]

Batman was once coined has possessing a 16th level intellect. There was an episode i saw him use some black jack strategy (http://black-jack-strategy411.blogspot.com)
for dominating mr terriffic and peter cross simultaenously

[bannermanonemillion]

I have a question.

If JJ is the Black Glove (and if so, Cool) how exactly does this all tie in with issue #666 (with Damian-as-Batman fighting the 3rd Batman/Antichrist) that's purported to have all the clues re: the BG?

I'd gone back over #666 and the third Batman (while walking on water) talks about "the old man" with "wings like black skin" who came to him and gave him his mission and all.

I'm still trying to connect the dots. In R.I.P. it's an evil mastermind story, but in #666 it feels like something else entirely. Help?

EDIT:

While checking out the GeniusboyFiremelon blog about #663 the Joker lists "Sombreros" among things that make him laugh. If this has already been posted, sorry.

[zhinxy]

Wait a minute... Thin white duke... David Bowie (Definitely Joker)

the beautiful north african model daughter of a world leader ... IMAN! (and it may even be harley?

The black glove is clearly the criminal arm of the Bowie Fan Club, har har...

But seriously!!!!

Groan, Morrison, what the hell?

[$5 Milkshake]

I honestly hope it's straight out of TDK and he cut a grin onto Bossu's face ...

That's what I was thinking, but since it didn't straight up SHOW it, I have a feeling it's gonna be something surprising!

[Trey]

Its not Alfred. He was beat up and is imprisoned.

Its not Jet. The solicit for next issue makes that clear. And she was slapped and tied up last issue.

Its not Dr. Hurt. He's always refering to the Black Glove.

Its not Joker.

I really believe the Waynes are really dead.

THat leaves one man who has been there from the beginning.

Commissioner Gordon, The Black Glove. He's doing this to save Bruce Wayne. Reread the hospital scene in Morrisons first issue.

[Jim Thompson]

Its not Alfred. He was beat up and is imprisoned.

Its not Jet. The solicit for next issue makes that clear. And she was slapped and tied up last issue.

Its not Dr. Hurt. He's always refering to the Black Glove.

Its not Joker.

I really believe the Waynes are really dead.

THat leaves one man who has been there from the beginning.

Commissioner Gordon, The Black Glove. He's doing this to save Bruce Wayne. Reread the hospital scene in Morrisons first issue.Agreed. :biggrin:

[bjtrdff]

I like it. And it would be intense enough to horrifically mangle Bruce's psyche afterwards, leading to a possible replacement.

[vickvega]

I read the hospital scene and still dont see what your getting at. Also he wouldnt let an officer of his get killed, would he? Gordon would have to be a villain from here on out.

[jetter_cheeze]

Probably been said before, but Bruce Wayne gets checked into the asylum thinking that he's batman and everyone thinks he is crazy so it makes sense for him to dance around in a weird bat costume. He gets checked out for awhile, then everything ok afterwards.

He wanted to be like joker so the last line in the issue is directed towards bruce instead of the reader like some people think. Bruce goes insane=he finally understands what it is like to be the joker. When he comes back he is a better batman than before. Sorta like he was after Knightfall saga.

Whoever the black glove is, and i don't think it is jez, will probably die after being revealed. Joker kills them.

Excuse broken english, alcohol involved...

[Mat001]

Its not Alfred. He was beat up and is imprisoned.

Its not Jet. The solicit for next issue makes that clear. And she was slapped and tied up last issue.

Method acting. Take a few bumps and bruises to fake out your victim. Make them think you're the victim when you're the victimizer.

[jetter_cheeze]

If the joker's past is multiple choice, what does that make his present? Why should he care if Bruce is Batman if in the next instance it is someone else to him?

It doesn't matter who is behind the mask so much as what that person stands for. Joker is more about breaking principles than he is about breaking a single person.

[Don't pee in the (Dead)pool]

I like it. And it would be intense enough to horrifically mangle Bruce's psyche afterwards, leading to a possible replacement.

Yeah, I think Tim becomes the new Batman and Bruce gets committed to Arkham.
RIP=Robin Is Promoted...:biggrin:

[He who laughs last]

Yeah, I think Tim becomes the new Batman and Bruce gets committed to Arkham.
RIP=Robin Is Promoted...:biggrin:

Tim? At age 17? Highly unlikely. It is comics of course, but I doubt DC or Didio would sign off on one of its flagship characters being a teenager running around in the cowl. But hey, they already broke Bat's back and killed Superman, so who can say for certain.

[Don't pee in the (Dead)pool]

Tim? At age 17? Highly unlikely. It is comics of course, but I doubt DC or Didio would sign off on one of its flagship characters being a teenager running around in the cowl. But hey, they already broke Bat's back and killed Superman, so who can say for certain.

I think Dick will stay as Nightwing (his comic's still ongoing), Damian will become Robin so that only leaves Tim. He's also the only one besides Alfred whom has read the black casefiles, Batman's ultimate reference book.
I could be totally wrong on this but one thing's for sure, it won't be Bruce as Batman. Grant's already stated that he's mapped out storylines until Bruce returns in 2010.

[Chiroptera]

I think Dick will stay as Nightwing (his comic's still ongoing), Damian will become Robin so that only leaves Tim. He's also the only one besides Alfred whom has read the black casefiles, Batman's ultimate reference book.
I could be totally wrong on this but one thing's for sure, it won't be Bruce as Batman. Grant's already stated that he's mapped out storylines until Bruce returns in 2010.

Are you serious?! 2010?! Good goddess above... That's it, I'm done. I thought it might be 3-5 months but 2010? If that's the case I'm out, somebody call me when the real Batman's back, I'm not shelling out money for someone I care nothing about to a writer who took away the only thing about that comic line that I found interesting.

[Don't pee in the (Dead)pool]

Are you serious?! 2010?! Good goddess above... That's it, I'm done. I thought it might be 3-5 months but 2010? If that's the case I'm out, somebody call me when the real Batman's back, I'm not shelling out money for someone I care nothing about to a writer who took away the only thing about that comic line that I found interesting.

That's what GM's said but then again it could be a huge Red Herring to throw everybody off what happens in Batman #681. However, with the Battle For The Cowl storyline coming up it looks as though Bruce will definitely be on extended leave.

[JoeKhul]

Just a terrific run so far.

Enjoying reading the posts in here. Most seem to enjoy the series and these threads show that Morrison got exactly what he was looking for in this title. Do love the few people who say the predicted it all (even though nothing is set) and back it up with their vague predictions.

"Three weeks ago I stated something 'bad' would happen to Batman, and the villain would be someone he 'knows'..." ---> That says it all!! Very Palin-like!!

Also, like the Gordan take. That would be real interesting.

[DayWing]

I think Dick will stay as Nightwing (his comic's still ongoing), Damian will become Robin so that only leaves Tim. He's also the only one besides Alfred whom has read the black casefiles, Batman's ultimate reference book.
I could be totally wrong on this but one thing's for sure, it won't be Bruce as Batman. Grant's already stated that he's mapped out storylines until Bruce returns in 2010.

Look, I like Tim a lot. He is probaply my favorite of his generation of heroes. But he is not ready to be Batman. Yes it is comics but seriously, there has to be a limit to what they attempt. I seriously think changes are in store for Tim but I think it would be more of the type where he develops into his own like Dick did before.

Plus, Nightwing can fill in Batman's shoes and then go back because he already established Nightwing as a separate and individual identity despite his ties. Robin is still a sidekick/teen partner identity and to revert back to Robin after being Batman is a step back. Thinking about development, these are what I think are the best fit for each Bat hero -

Bruce - I can only see him take over the mentor role once he is done with Batman, he is too driven to quit and when he does he will be there to make sure the next generation is ready

Dick - He should always be his own hero but elevated in status to stand with the top tiers, possibly a hero for all categories like Superman, leading the greatest heroes of all time.

Tim - In time when he is ready to grow, he should take over the Oracle because that is his greatest ability, to be able to work with technology to aide in fighting crime, his detective skills are not bad and physical abilities are good but has its limits (Batman's own words)

Barbara - Commissioner

Cassandra - Batwoman, truly the only possible replacement for Batman, she is up there in physical skills and drive with Bruce, maybe even better.

Damien - Batman, the logical heir eventually but I see him playing second fiddle to Cassandra in Gotham.

Jason - dresses up as Superman.

In other words, one day I would like to see Dick expand to outside Gotham and be a Superman type authority and Bruce can work behind then scenes enjoying his retirement and guide Batwoman and Batman with Tim suppliying intel.

[Valhalla]

Its not Alfred. He was beat up and is imprisoned.

Its not Jet. The solicit for next issue makes that clear. And she was slapped and tied up last issue.

Its not Dr. Hurt. He's always refering to the Black Glove.

Its not Joker.

I really believe the Waynes are really dead.

THat leaves one man who has been there from the beginning.

Commissioner Gordon, The Black Glove. He's doing this to save Bruce Wayne. Reread the hospital scene in Morrisons first issue.


How about Hush disguised as Gordon??? :eek:

[He who laughs last]

Now your theories are just getting out there.

*dons tinfoil hat*

Gordon? doubtful. Considering the arcs latest issue and turn of events with Jezebelle (donning the black gloves) while Joker drops hints left and right, Jimmy plays no part other than trying to get Bats out of trouble.

[Red_Knight]

No biggie, but...

... any idea why the party guests pour whine on the dead Sombrero while Bats and The Joker are fighting it out? Did you read it as a twisted show of respect, are they looking to torch the corpse, or what? The scene just seemed out of place at that time.

[kalika]

Gordon would be awful :frown: , even if it was under the guise of, "look buddy, you're nuts. You need to stop all this." It's a little elaborate for an intervention, though, especially since people..oh i don't know....DIED during the course of this thing.

However, Gordon would ring true the cries that the Black Glove has been around since the VERY beginning, since -- if my batfacts are correct -- Gordon appeared back in 'Tec 27, along with our hero.

Is there anybody else still in the mythos who appeared in that first edition? :confused: hrmmm..

dear gods, don't let it be Gordon....

[Red_Knight]

dear gods, don't let it be Gordon....

It's not Gordon. It just doesn't add up for a whole lot of reasons.

First of all, he'd be a villain from this point forward. As you correctly pointed out, people have died. Revealing Gordon to be the Black Glove would put him in league with freaks and criminals like Hurt, Le Bossu and, of course, the Joker. Given their history, I think it's safe to assume that Gordon would rather blow his brains out than leave the Joker out of his cell.

Besides, if Gordon was the Black Glove, why would he let himself get trapped in Wayne Manor? Certainly not to fool Bruce. By the time Gordon arrived, Bruce was already down and out. So, for Gordon to fake his entrapment at this point would have been an exercise in futility. (Yes, I know things like this have happened in fiction. It's bad writing, though, -- designed to fool the reader, not another character. I think Morrison is above such blatant missteps.)

Finally, it has been established that the Black Glove has been around for many, many years. This organization wasn't just thrown together a couple of years ago to take out Batman.

[bannermanonemillion]

*raises hand from the back of the classroom*

I'm still confused. Can anyone shed light on how the identity of the Black Glove in any way jibes with what we saw in Batman #666?

[carabas]

*raises hand from the back of the classroom*

I'm still confused. Can anyone shed light on how the identity of the Black Glove in any way jibes with what we saw in Batman #666?Very, very hard to do, considering that the identity of the Black Glove is still up for grabs.

[SpaceBooger]

How about Hush disguised as Gordon??? :eek:
Read 'Tec 849 and you will see that Hush is disguised, but not as Gordon.

[hippy fascist]

No biggie, but...

... any idea why the party guests pour whine on the dead Sombrero while Bats and The Joker are fighting it out? Did you read it as a twisted show of respect, are they looking to torch the corpse, or what? The scene just seemed out of place at that time.

ummmmmm, wine doesn't have a high enough alcohol content to burn...