The Most Confusing, Convoluted X-Stories Ever Told

[worstblogever]

This got up in X-Cres, and everyone has stories that are just so convoluted, that they seem implausible, even for a comic book. Enough were quickly thrown around that I figured it might warrant it's own thread to call home. Some examples that came up?

-Shatterstar Saga

-Reignfire

-Psylocke and Jean's power swap

-Psylocke becoming a ninja

-Jean/Phoenix/Maddie

-The origin of Cable

-Copycat replacing Domino before she was ever introduced

-Tessa the spy

-Azazel is Nightcrawler's pappy, a.k.a. "The Draco"

- The Upstarts killin' fellow mutants... for POINTS!

- Nova Roma, Selene, and Magma

Feel free to discuss any of these tales, or throw in your own additions to the mix.

[Swashbuckler]

Poor Nightcrawler. He had such an easy past that made total sense and was connected to several good X-characters and they ruined it all by allowing Chuck Austen to make him the "devils" son. What a stupid storyline. If they had made Belasco his Dad I would understand, but not some new random gimp mutant. Plus that storyline was just horrible. I mean really, Havok peed on Iceman or something!

[Josef F.]

Hello, I am going to spy on this team by creating a false Identity.
Oh look, I even get a suit that gives me cool powers.
That's cool.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/6754/249913-143137-sage_super.jpg

OH NO, Now it appears that the fake name has developed it's own personality and is Killling Cyclops! I have betrayed my team to work for a man in a BAD MASK! MUHAAHAHAHAHHAAH

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/224203-82506-sage_super.jpg

Oh, it's okay, It got rebooted, I'm fine now.

OH NO, Roma info-dumped me and Now Diana Fox is a figment of my imagination.
I suppose this is logical, as it was a traumatic time, and she will live on as a memory of my betrayal

Oh, that's not what's going on?
Kay.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/8134/217955-1690-sage_super.jpg

OH NO, I turned into Diana fox for no real reason, wherein my hair changed colour and I gained the powers she got from her suit.

Oh, it's okay, I'm Sage again now.

Oh, I can fly aswell.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/6754/231345-39139-sage_super.jpg

[Greg Anderson]

I don't see Cable's origin as convoluted.

[Swashbuckler]

I don't see Cable's origin as convoluted.

Oh no. A baby born from a clone gets a disease from a celestially powered mutant and is sent to the future, cloned himself and grows up becoming a messiah who will end the celestial mutants reign of terror. He comes back in time with his clone and then saves another baby and runs into the future.

[nikbackm]

I don't see Cable's origin as convoluted.

Not if you compare it with Rachel's, no.

[worstblogever]

I don't see Cable's origin as convoluted.

The son of Cyclops and Jean Grey's clone, Madelyne Pryor who was sent to the future after being infected with the techno-organic virus in the past with help from the alternate-reality travelling Rachel Summers, who would find a way to telepathically link Jean Grey and Cyclops to two people named Redd and Slim in the future who could train him to use his powers to keep the t/o virus in check and raise him to be a freedom fighter who would one day return to the past to try to defeat Apocalypse before he raises all sorts of hell in the future.

That's uh... a bit more complicated than boy meets girl and makes a baby who grows up to be a hero.

[escapegoat]

The Draco isn't convoluted....it's just a really bad idea for Nightcrawler's origin.
Badly written too.

[worstblogever]

The Draco isn't convoluted....it's just a really bad idea for Nightcrawler's origin.
Badly written too.

Well, compared to the rest of them, yes.

But Nightcrawler's dad is an ancient mutant teleporter who's been trapped in an alternate dimension and he tries to play at being a demon, but even though he's trapped in there, he's managed to get out and knock up Earth-bound women like Mystique and whoever Kiwi Black and Abyss' mom's are.

That's a bit weird. It seems more odd than if Mystique was Nightcrawler's dad, and Destiny was his mom.

[Greg Anderson]

Heh heh, okay, point taken. But for me I just see it as a child is born, has a disease that only has a cure in the future and is sent to the future to later come back to the present as a grown man.

[Factor Three]

Factor Three created continuity in order to distract you. Factor Three will crush you while you are pondering the time-tossed origins of the mutant fools Cable and Marvel Girl.

Linear thinking is the downfall of your species.

Factor Three waits for the perfect moment.

[worstblogever]

Factor Three created continuity in order to distract you. Factor Three will crush you while you are pondering the time-tossed origins of the mutant fools Cable and Marvel Girl.

Linear thinking is the downfall of your species.

Factor Three waits for the perfect moment.

Assuming you're not talking about yourself in third person... yes, the plans of Factor Three, being manipulated by the alien Mutant Master is a good example. The X-Men actually went, "Wait, if you idiots start World War III, the nuclear fallout will not only affect the humans... but us mutants, too!"

Blob, Mastermind, Unus: ... really? Really? Wow. Uh... we really didn't think this one through we just were told, like... kill humans and were all down for it. Just... wow. Sorry dude, our bad.

Ah, the Silver Age.

[Karl H]

Factor Three created continuity in order to distract you. Factor Three will crush you while you are pondering the time-tossed origins of the mutant fools Cable and Marvel Girl.

Linear thinking is the downfall of your species.

Factor Three waits for the perfect moment.

I've missed you

[Daithi]

Not if you compare it with Rachel's, no.

Er? Rachel is the daughter of Cyclops and Jean Grey in an alternate universe. She travels back in time but messes up and arrives in a different timeline.

Compared to what worstblogever just posted? Rachel's origin is actually needed to understand Cable's origin and is still just a small part of it! Madness.

I find Psylocke's transformation into a ninja to be the worst though.

[worstblogever]

Er? Rachel is the daughter of Cyclops and Jean Grey in an alternate universe. She travels back in time but messes up and arrives in a different timeline.

Compared to what worstblogever just posted? Madness.

You left out "Hound training", being pursued by Nimrod & Ahab, and absorbing a fraction of this Earth's Phoenix Force, though.

Still, I give the nod to Cable for being a tad more complicated.

[Factor Three]

Assuming you're not talking about yourself in third person... yes, the plans of Factor Three, being manipulated by the alien Mutant Master is a good example. The X-Men actually went, "Wait, if you idiots start World War III, the nuclear fallout will not only affect the humans... but us mutants, too!"

Blob, Mastermind, Unus: ... really? Really? Wow. Uh... we really didn't think this one through we just were told, like... kill humans and were all down for it. Just... wow. Sorry dude, our bad.

Ah, the Silver Age.

You serve Factor Three well. Factor Three knows you and your kind can be depended on; keeping the world vulnerable by focusing on details and missing the larger picture.

You will survive and prosper when Factor Three takes control, little speck.

[Seres]

I don't understand anything that concerns Cable. I've read X-Cutioners Song's five times, and still understand none of it. In the Apocalypse Vs The Twelve, once everyone got caught, he went off with Cyclops into an imaginary dream-world and then... they left. And Madelyne Prior was there, or was she? His Wikipedia page made me cry. Cable is a Ridiculous Continuity Grendel.

[Factor Three]

I've missed you

Factor Three is not "missed". Factor Three is obeyed.

[worstblogever]

You serve Factor Three well. Factor Three knows you and your kind can be depended on; keeping the world vulnerable by focusing on details and missing the larger picture.

You will survive and prosper when Factor Three takes control, little speck.

Uh... thanks. I think.

I don't understand anything that concerns Cable. I've read X-Cutioners Song's five times, and still understand none of it. In the Apocalypse Vs The Twelve, once everyone got caught, he went off with Cyclops into an imaginary dream-world and then... they left. And Madelyne Prior was there, or was she? His Wikipedia page made me cry. Cable is a Ridiculous Continuity Grendel.

Who keeps getting another chance at having his own title.

That's the real mystery.

[Push You Down]

- The Upstarts killin' fellow mutants... for POINTS!
.

I go for this one being complicated but only disappointing since it never seemed to really get off the ground.

[Daithi]

You left out "Hound training", being pursued by Nimrod & Ahab, and absorbing a fraction of this Earth's Phoenix Force, though.

Bah. You can't bring the Phoenix up in a thread about convoluted stories. It's like the trump card.

Though I don't see the hound stuff as being too convoluted?

[worstblogever]

I go for this one being complicated but only disappointing since it never seemed to really get off the ground.

What were the points for? What did you get if you won? Bragging rights? And why did all the contestants trust the Gamesmaster to be keeping a fair score?

Making it even more stupid was that Fitzroy was from the future.. how did he know if he killed someone in the past, he wouldn't cease to exist in his future timeline, and make himself disappear? Just... a moron. The Hellions died for that guy. The Hellions. BAH!

[worstblogever]

Bah. You can't bring the Phoenix up in a thread about convoluted stories. It's like the trump card.

Though I don't see the hound stuff as being too convoluted?

Not too convoluted, no. But a trained mutant hunter trying to go into the past to join a team of other mutants with Kitty Pryde's future self who possesses the past Kitty?

Weird.

[frog]

Just wait until Marvel editorial decides who the Messiah Complex baby is. I bet then we'll really see convoluted!

[Silver Fox]

Factor Three is not "missed". Factor Three is obeyed.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3189/2574911135_7e77983d2e_m.jpg

[maigen]

This thread is confusing.:frown:

[Dagger]

What were the points for? What did you get if you won? Bragging rights? And why did all the contestants trust the Gamesmaster to be keeping a fair score?

Making it even more stupid was that Fitzroy was from the future.. how did he know if he killed someone in the past, he wouldn't cease to exist in his future timeline, and make himself disappear? Just... a moron. The Hellions died for that guy. The Hellions. BAH!
The winner was promised immortality.

[worstblogever]

Just wait until Marvel editorial decides who the Messiah Complex baby is. I bet then we'll really see convoluted!

Oh no... we can't begin to understand how convoluted that will be. That's focused on what has happened, rather than what will. Like...

GAMBIT put together the Marauders!!!

[worstblogever]

The winner was promised immortality.

So... why did Selene want to play then? She's lived for like 10,000 years, you'd think that wouldn't impress her.

That, and how exactly would Gamesmaster grant immortality? Seems a bit out of his power set.

[nikbackm]

Er? Rachel is the daughter of Cyclops and Jean Grey in an alternate universe. She travels back in time but messes up and arrives in a different timeline.

Cable's at least from 616 originally, Rachel is not. In addition to what's already been mentioned there's also all that Askani cr*p that may or may not have happened depending on who you ask.

So... why did Selene want to play then? She's lived for like 10,000 years, you'd think that wouldn't impress her.

That, and how exactly would Gamesmaster grant immortality? Seems a bit out of his power set.

Selene might want to have real immortality, now she has to depend on finding victims to suck life force from.

Maybe Gamesmaster was actually the Grandmaster in disguise?

[maigen]

How about the whole Mystique thing for a good bit before Messiah (even back to the Foxx thing?) and during it was just a whole charade to save Rogue-after shooting her of course?

[worstblogever]

How about the whole Mystique thing for a good bit before Messiah (even back to the Foxx thing?) and during it was just a whole charade to save Rogue-after shooting her of course?

Mystique was Foxx to seduce Gambit, to get her to ditch the Cajun and fix him up with Pulse.

Then, in spite of the fact that this plan saw Pulse get closer to Rogue, while Gambit became a Horseman, he disappeared. Then Rogue let her mom, who tried to sleep with her boyfriend on her own little X-Team.

Then she shagged Iceman, and gave him nanocrabs, before shooting Rogue.

So yeah, pretty wild ride.

[worstblogever]

But, again, this reminds me of another "Huh buh wha?" moment...

Apocalypse's new Horsemen:

Gazer (who?) as War. Sunfire with new legs as Famine, depowered/repowered Polaris as Pestilence, and... gassy Gambit as Death!

Because, you know, recruiting X-Men as Horsemen never proved to be counterproductive to him the other two times he tried it.

[Silver Fox]

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1183/1463419797_3bf6626029_m.jpg

[Askani's Flame]

Cable's at least from 616 originally, Rachel is not. In addition to what's already been mentioned there's also all that Askani cr*p that may or may not have happened depending on who you ask.

But that has nohing to do with her origin. All the Askani stuff is more like what happened to Nightcrawler with Draco or Havok with Mutant X.

[Squidboy]

Well, compared to the rest of them, yes.

But Nightcrawler's dad is an ancient mutant teleporter who's been trapped in an alternate dimension and he tries to play at being a demon, but even though he's trapped in there, he's managed to get out and knock up Earth-bound women like Mystique and whoever Kiwi Black and Abyss' mom's are.

That's a bit weird. It seems more odd than if Mystique was Nightcrawler's dad, and Destiny was his mom.

Azazel was trapped in the dimension thousands of years ago and by chance, Margali Szardos' dark magic training had opened a hole between the two dimensions, allowing Azazel to escape. The two make a pact of some kind, and Margali opens the dimensional rift for him to escape, which is how he knocks up the women and all that jazz, and after rescuing Kurt and handing him off to Margali to raise, she seems to go back on the pact. In the 20 or so years that Azazel is trapped in his dimension again, his kids grow and he realizes that he can draw them to Isla Des Demonas, where they can open the gateway between the worlds.

Yeah, it's a little complicated, but compared to some of the origins/retcons, it isn't so bad.

My vote for the most confusing, convoluted story is the whole Psylocke/Revanche thing. I pretend I know what happened, but I always seem to find something new about that story that just makes it all the more confusing.

[worstblogever]

Azazel was trapped in the dimension thousands of years ago and by chance, Margali Szardos' dark magic training had opened a hole between the two dimensions, allowing Azazel to escape. The two make a pact of some kind, and Margali opens the dimensional rift for him to escape, which is how he knocks up the women and all that jazz, and after rescuing Kurt and handing him off to Margali to raise, she seems to go back on the pact. In the 20 or so years that Azazel is trapped in his dimension again, his kids grow and he realizes that he can draw them to Isla Des Demonas, where they can open the gateway between the worlds.

Yeah, it's a little complicated, but compared to some of the origins/retcons, it isn't so bad.

My vote for the most confusing, convoluted story is the whole Psylocke/Revanche thing. I pretend I know what happened, but I always seem to find something new about that story that just makes it all the more confusing.

Even the creators were arguing about that thing. Nicienza said one thing, Claremont said another... one was the Siege Perilous, the other was combo of that and Spiral's Body Shoppe and the Hand...

And neither explanation was good. It was just... "Hey, kids! Guess who's a British/Asian purple haired ninja in a thong!"

[nikbackm]

But that has nohing to do with her origin. All the Askani stuff is more like what happened to Nightcrawler with Draco or Havok with Mutant X.

She seems to have been reborn in a way after the Askani storyline ended so therefore I felt it could be considered part of her origin. Kind of like how Psylocke was resurrected by her mad hat (half/step?) brother to ..., well to do something.

[Dagger]

So... why did Selene want to play then? She's lived for like 10,000 years, you'd think that wouldn't impress her.

That, and how exactly would Gamesmaster grant immortality? Seems a bit out of his power set.
I don't remember. I just remember that that was what was promised to the winner of the game.

[Squidboy]

Even the creators were arguing about that thing. Nicienza said one thing, Claremont said another... one was the Siege Perilous, the other was combo of that and Spiral's Body Shoppe and the Hand...

And neither explanation was good. It was just... "Hey, kids! Guess who's a British/Asian purple haired ninja in a thong!"

I can't really argue with the results, but yeah, both continuity-wise and behind-the-scenes, the whole storyline seems like a disaster.

[Valeria Kementari]

The most convoluted has got to be the Phoenix Crap, first she's Phoenix, then she isn't then Maddie is Phoenix then Jean is Phoenix then we have the Phoenix Corps, the Phoenix Egg, the Phoenix keychain with flashing lights... sigh it's too much crap for just one (two?) characters.

This thread needs a poll.

[darknessatnoon]

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/6754/249913-143137-sage_super.jpg


http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/224203-82506-sage_super.jpg


How did Sage change her skin color when transforming into Diana Fox?

[maigen]

How did Sage change her skin color when transforming into Diana Fox?

Self-tanner

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

How did Sage change her skin color when transforming into Diana Fox?

Details.

Somehow I get the feeling this was part of the actual pitch.

[Magneto X]

This got up in X-Cres, and everyone has stories that are just so convoluted, that they seem implausible, even for a comic book. Enough were quickly thrown around that I figured it might warrant it's own thread to call home. Some examples that came up?

-Shatterstar Saga

-Reignfire

-Psylocke and Jean's power swap

-Psylocke becoming a ninja

-Jean/Phoenix/Maddie

-The origin of Cable

-Copycat replacing Domino before she was ever introduced

-Tessa the spy

-Azazel is Nightcrawler's pappy, a.k.a. "The Draco"

- The Upstarts killin' fellow mutants... for POINTS!

- Nova Roma, Selene, and Magma

Feel free to discuss any of these tales, or throw in your own additions to the mix.


These all seem convoluted or needlessly complicated. But what's so unbelievable about the Upstarts? It seems to me that if a group of immoral rich kids had powers, they'd get real bored with the Hellfire Club's boring old traditions, and be far more likely to start daring each other like this than to become either a do-gooder or a take-over-the-world type.

[worstblogever]

These all seem convoluted or needlessly complicated. But what's so unbelievable about the Upstarts? It seems to me that if a group of immoral rich kids had powers, they'd get real bored with the Hellfire Club's boring old traditions, and be far more likely to start daring each other like this than to become either a do-gooder or a take-over-the-world type.

Maybe because it was a stupid way to have a power play. "Hey, we're overthrowing all existing power heirarchies for mutants to replace them with ourselves... as a game this spooky, unknown dude made up where we get points for it! Whoever gets the most arbitrarily given points, gets to live forever! WOO!"

They all had to have been high. Really, really high.



And giving this thread a poll, valechan, means that there would only be ten stories that are worthy. There are WAY more than that.

[MartinRedmond]

1 The Summers Familly Tree (with my level of caring about it always nonexistant)
2 Kwannon
3 Cable

Can anyone combine a list of people that have died twice?

Maddrox died once
Pete Wisdon died once
Tarot was killed twice in 2 consecutive issues
I think one of the Acolytes died 3 times in about the same month?
Emma Frost died three times

[darknessatnoon]

What was that one story about Cable's son, Genesis or something? I don't know if it was convoluted but it sure was horrible.

[worstblogever]

1 The Summers Familly Tree (with my level of caring about it always nonexistant)
2 Kwannon
3 Cable

Can anyone combine a list of people that have died twice?

Maddrox died once
Pete Wisdon died once
Tarot was killed twice in 2 consecutive issues
I think one of the Acolytes died 3 times in about the same month?
Emma Frost died three times

How about, Harry Leland and Friedrich von Roehm died fighting Nimrod in Uncanny #208-209, then oddly appeared in New Mutants (vol. 1) #61 in a meeting Magneto was having with Sebastian Shaw.

But these are all unexplained errors, flat out, not confusing stories.

[Daithi]

What was that one story about Cable's son, Genesis or something? I don't know if it was convoluted but it sure was horrible.

Hah. There's the possibility that he wasn't Cable's son at all but the son of Cable's evil clone Stryfe after he raped Cable's wife.

[darknessatnoon]

Hah. There's the possibility that he wasn't Cable's son at all but the son of Cable's evil clone Stryfe after he raped Cable's wife.

I hope that's resolved someday.

[Valeria Kementari]

Spiral herself is a convoluted character. Is she Ricochet Rita? If so how did Rita appear in Excalibur: Mojo Mayhem?

[Valeria Kementari]

Hah. There's the possibility that he wasn't Cable's son at all but the son of Cable's evil clone Stryfe after he raped Cable's wife.


Tyler was Alijah's son, he had no relation to Cable, Cable was just his adoptive father

[worstblogever]

Spiral herself is a convoluted character. Is she Ricochet Rita? If so how did Rita appear in Excalibur: Mojo Mayhem?

Spiral is convoluted.

But she's supposed to be an alternate universe version of Ricochet Rita corrupted by Mojo and then the WildWays. It's why she could kidnap herself during the Longshot series... she didn't. Alternate-Rita (Spiral) kidnapped Ricochet Rita.

And, yeah, it's never been explained well, either. A lot of Spiral's motivations aren't.

[marvell2100]

I say it has to be the story of Joseph, "The Other Magneto". Why don't they just give us different versions of Magneto like Magneto Lite or Non-Alcoholic Magneto or Fat-Free Magneto with 0% Trans fat. I'm still not sure exactly what he is. Clone? Good not Evil Twin? Alternate reality Mags? What did he do? And to think that he lasted as long as he did.

[darknessatnoon]

Spiral herself is a convoluted character. Is she Ricochet Rita? If so how did Rita appear in Excalibur: Mojo Mayhem?

Spiral is future Rita.

[AcesX1X]

I say it has to be the story of Joseph, "The Other Magneto". I'm still not sure exactly what he is. Clone? Good not Evil Twin? Alternate reality Mags? What did he do? And to think that he lasted as long as he did.

Bite your tongue!

[worstblogever]

Spiral is future Rita.

Spiral is "a" future Rita, from what I've researched.

[ExtraEpidermis]

Has anyone mentioned the Penance/M/twins/Emplate/M-Plate mess yet? Cuz they should.

[worstblogever]

Has anyone mentioned the Penance/M/twins/Emplate/M-Plate mess yet? Cuz they should.

I mentioned it in the X-Cres discussion, but neglected to include it here.


Penance ended up being Monet, forced to be Penance written by Larry Hama. Once she was freed, Monet was revealed to be the other two St. Croix twins. Then, their brother Marius, aka Emplate, absorbed the twins, and became M-Plate, but eventually, they were separated from him, and decided to merge again as Penance.


Nevermind the fact that Penance was originally designed by Scott Lobdell to be a Bosnian War refugee named Yvette, with actual memories of surviving tanks and stuff that other characters picked up on psionically.

Or how eventually the twins got separated from her, and she became "Hollow", who's now hanging with a bats*** crazy Phil Urich in the Loners comic.


Check, please.

[Stormshadow]

Ditto on the Summers Family Tree. Where the hell was Gambit supposed to have fit in all that years ago? Now Vulcan? WTF...just what the X-Men need, more cosmic crap. Less space, more Earth please.


Phoenix's dying and rebirths

The X-Traitor

[maigen]

Bishop's hair.

[worstblogever]

Ditto on the Summers Family Tree. Where the hell was Gambit supposed to have fit in all that years ago? Now Vulcan? WTF...just what the X-Men need, more cosmic crap. Less space, more Earth please.


Phoenix's dying and rebirths

The X-Traitor

Gambit was "rumored" to fit in, but never actually did.

However, Adam-X, was. He was to be the product of Kate Summers being raped by D'Ken. That never was panned out on panel, or even mentioned in a book, just in interviews, though. So the mystery of the third summers brother remained.

Until, as it turns out, that Kate Summers was pregnant when killed in space, and the Shi'ar opted to deliver her premature baby. He was hyper-aged by D'Ken's men, but eventually rescued and returned to Earth, where he trained with Moira MacTaggart and the rest of the X-Men 1.5. Once he was believed killed on Krakoa (he actually was hybernating beneath its surface with Darwin when the All New, All Different X-Men beat it and launched it into space, where he remained until M-Day), Professor X wiped everyone's memory that the whole 1.5 team existed. And thus, he was forgotten about until "Deadly Genesis". Then he popped out, tried to get his revenge on Xavier and everyone else, before opting to first head into space after D'Ken and the Shi'ar. He whacked D'Ken, usurped the throne by boning Deathbird, and now his a kid, and his the Emperor of said Shi'ar Empire, after killing his own dad, Corsair, and locking up his brother Havok in a galactic prison.

Another great mixed up tale, the third Summers brother.

[marvell2100]

Bite your tongue!

OUCH! Heyb! Thab Hurb!

[Silver Fox]

Wait, Vulcan has a kid?

[justinkos91]

I don't remember. I just remember that that was what was promised to the winner of the game.

Wasn't that resolved in the "Child's Play" arc?
Not sure, but didn't Husk come in to save the day?
Doesn't sounds too convulted to me, just a waste of time...

[worstblogever]

Wait, Vulcan has a kid?

He knocked up Deathbird. She insisted on an heir to conssumate their marriage.

Unless I read a false summary...

Yeah I did. No kid.

Yet.

[Silver Fox]

He knocked up Deathbird. She insisted on an heir to conssumate their marriage.

Unless I read a false summary...

Is she pregnant or did she actually give birth? I'm going to have to look this up.

[Henry T.]

The M/twins/penance retcons, the Xorneto retcons, and the Phoenix retcons are the most convoluted, imho.

The Phoenix should get a bit of a pass since it has mysterious, transcendent, and abstract aspects.

[Novaya Havoc]

Hello, I am going to spy on this team by creating a false Identity.
Oh look, I even get a suit that gives me cool powers.
That's cool.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/6754/249913-143137-sage_super.jpg

OH NO, Now it appears that the fake name has developed it's own personality and is Killling Cyclops! I have betrayed my team to work for a man in a BAD MASK! MUHAAHAHAHAHHAAH

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/224203-82506-sage_super.jpg

Oh, it's okay, It got rebooted, I'm fine now.

OH NO, Roma info-dumped me and Now Diana Fox is a figment of my imagination.
I suppose this is logical, as it was a traumatic time, and she will live on as a memory of my betrayal

Oh, that's not what's going on?
Kay.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/8134/217955-1690-sage_super.jpg

OH NO, I turned into Diana fox for no real reason, wherein my hair changed colour and I gained the powers she got from her suit.

Oh, it's okay, I'm Sage again now.

Oh, I can fly aswell.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/6754/231345-39139-sage_super.jpg

*applause*

BRAVO! ENCORE!

[Squidboy]

I have to agree with the Xorneto, M/Penance, Phoenix/Jean points. I pretty much got the M story down, but it was such a complicated origin to just tie the two/three characters together. I'd just like to add Monet's unknown race into the mix too, since nobody can get it right, it seems. All the different colorations of her and her family has fueled countless heated discussions on here, and I don't think we've ever gotten near to answering the question of her origins definitively.

[Joe Acro]

I nominate Age of Apocalypse.

[sneggz]

Oh no. A baby born from a clone gets a disease from a celestially powered mutant and is sent to the future, cloned himself and grows up becoming a messiah who will end the celestial mutants reign of terror. He comes back in time with his clone and then saves another baby and runs into the future.

You left out that in the future, he goes back in time to infect Poccy with the t-o which Poccy infects baby Nathan with......oww my head hurts.

[darknessatnoon]

The Blood of Apocalypse with the intertwined Dracula storyline was fairly convoluted.

[Imraith Nimphais]

I could never wrap my head around the "Stryfe/Legacy Virus" thingie...when he 1st showed up, it was a case of "Huh?...who is this a**hole? Where did he drop from? and Why is he even in an x-book?"

[TJKernan]

The Upstart stuff wasn't convoluted, just plain awful.

Gamemaster is a terrible concept. He has the ability to read every mind in the owrld and manipulate almost anybody, but decides to play this game with Selene just for a distraction.

And the whole 'immortality' reward was just garbage, because nobody had the power to make that happen in the story.

It was just a bad excuse to weed out some X-enemies...

Oh, and for some reason only Husk, Jean Grey, and SPEEDBALL are immune to his mental powers...

UGH

[worstblogever]

How about, "Externals are mutants that are immortal and can't be killed!"

"Sunspot's an External! No, actually, Cannonball is!"

"Oops, you say the lawyers for the Highlander franchise are on the phone?"

*Gideon, Saul, Crule, Absolom die* *Selene denies Guthrie is an External*

"Nevermind! Hee. We didn't get sued, did we? Whew."

[jarrod]

So... why did Selene want to play then? She's lived for like 10,000 years, you'd think that wouldn't impress her.

That, and how exactly would Gamesmaster grant immortality? Seems a bit out of his power set.
I'm not sure if it saw print, but Selene was originally supposed to be behind the whole Upstarts competition, as a way of taking out her inner circle rivals. Presumably, she'd have been the one granting immortality. The original Upstarts lineup was just going to be Fenris, Shinobi Shaw, Matsuo Tsuryaba and Fabian Cortez too iirc (back when they were conceived as "the Wild Boys").


Even the creators were arguing about that thing. Nicienza said one thing, Claremont said another... one was the Siege Perilous, the other was combo of that and Spiral's Body Shoppe and the Hand...

And neither explanation was good. It was just... "Hey, kids! Guess who's a British/Asian purple haired ninja in a thong!"
Quick correction, but in Claremont's story the Hand did the insta-ninja mighty morph themselves, the Siege just delivered a freshly mindwiped british Betsy in their laps. Mojo and Spiral might've been involved, but it was very much left open to interpretation... if they were, the Hand weren't aware of it. The Hand were themselves only working for the Mandarin.

In Fabe's version, he changed that from a transformation to a full on body swap/mind meld combo (this is Kwannon, she's slutty, she used to sleep with her boss, which is why Betsy's suddenly been doing the bend-and-snap for Cyke), involved Spiral directly (evidently third-party hired to do work for the Hand which... uh... is pretty much already something the Hand's been proven capable of themselves), the Mandarin went MIA (y'know, the guy who wanted the whole thing done in the first place) and generally Fabe just kind of killed it. The first story was inoffensive (if redundant, we didn't need Elektra 2) but still relatively straight forward. The second was a straight up clusterfuck, undoubtedly having something to do with Fabe not ever reading the entire original arc.


Cable's at least from 616 originally, Rachel is not. In addition to what's already been mentioned there's also all that Askani cr*p that may or may not have happened depending on who you ask.
Funny enough the Askani has more to do with Nate's origin. And actually, by technically wiping out that future timeline, Cable also technically wiped out his origin story but he's somehow still here. Thanks for trying anyway Natey. :/

Let's not forget the Askani teachings also freed Berto from Reignfire (the first time?)... I wonder how many of these continuitywonk abortions we can tie directly together? :biggrin:

[ThreeDays]

The son of Cyclops and Jean Grey's clone, Madelyne Pryor who was sent to the future after being infected with the techno-organic virus in the past with help from the alternate-reality travelling Rachel Summers, who would find a way to telepathically link Jean Grey and Cyclops to two people named Redd and Slim in the future who could train him to use his powers to keep the t/o virus in check and raise him to be a freedom fighter who would one day return to the past to try to defeat Apocalypse before he raises all sorts of hell in the future.

That's uh... a bit more complicated than boy meets girl and makes a baby who grows up to be a hero.

Well, really, it's the same thing as "boy meets girl and makes a baby who grows up to be a hero." It only becomes more complicated when you start detailing who the boy and girl are, and then how the baby grows up to be a hero.

Honestly, I've never found Cable's story difficult to follow. He goes to the future as a baby, then comes back as an adult. Anything beyond that is just the same kind of fleshing out you'd give to any "baby grows up to be a hero" tale when you started elaborating on the details.

Tyler was Alijah's son, he had no relation to Cable, Cable was just his adoptive father

No, Cable was either his actual father or was Stryfe's son. Cable lied to Cannonball about Tyler not being his real son as a means to distance himself from Sam (Cable admitted this in X-Force #25), but it's just as possible that he was Stryfe's kid since Stryfe raped Aliya once.

My vote for the most confusing, convoluted story is the whole Psylocke/Revanche thing. I pretend I know what happened, but I always seem to find something new about that story that just makes it all the more confusing.

It's exactly the same for me.

So... why did Selene want to play then? She's lived for like 10,000 years, you'd think that wouldn't impress her.

Selene wasn't competing. The Upstarts was her idea.

EDIT: Jarrod beat me to it.

That, and how exactly would Gamesmaster grant immortality? Seems a bit out of his power set.

I thought Selene was supposed to grant the prize? Not sure how, but it's Selene, so ... she just would, I guess. Who knows. My understanding is that Gamesmaster's role was just what his name implied: Referee.

EDIT: Beat me to it here too.

Making it even more stupid was that Fitzroy was from the future.. how did he know if he killed someone in the past, he wouldn't cease to exist in his future timeline, and make himself disappear? Just... a moron. The Hellions died for that guy. The Hellions. BAH!

Yeah, that was pretty stupid. Fitzroy was always very unconcerned about that.

[madrox1977]

Rachel's story only becomes wierd when it involves cable. By the way my favorite cable add-ons would be:

being born from a clone,
being infected by an alien virus
being taken to the future by an underling of his sister (who is from an alternate future and has become lost in the time stream and has for some unknown reason decided to become head of the religion that helps save cable)
being cloned
being raised by his father and step mother [in different bodies]
having a son who later becomes his enemy [hmmm oedipus comlex methinks]
returning to the present older than his father
helping the man who took in his father [and ultimately caused him to come into conflict with Apocalypse and the virus] create much of his initial tech [cerebro]
forgiving his fathers friend for killing his son.
Destroying the timeline in which he was saved, yet somehow still managing to survive and not only that but his sister from another timeline returns appearing exactly the same age she was when she left [only to turn into a dinosaur for a bit later in life and have sex with a man who is evolved from a bird]
Goes back in time to infect Poccy with the virus which Apocalypse eventually uses to infects him.

[jarrod]

I still wish they'd have made Cable the clone and Stryfe the original.

[Hakael]

I actually wouldn't mind seeing a revamped version of the Upstarts now that the mutant population is what it is...

every mutant kill is gonna be worth so much points :P

I kinda liked them, always bickering and complaining... Shinobi Shaw and Fabian Cortez being brats... what is Gamemaster up to at this point anyhow? I don't think he was depowered.

[madrox1977]

Also the upstarts made no sense at all:


Sienna Blaze was ripping apart the electromagnetic field every time she used her power, so why she would want immortality is anyones guess as she would have destroyed the planet in a few years [if she hadn't been killed off by weapon-x, funny how a teleporter managed to get captured.]

Gamesmaster turned out to be a small child in a psychiatric institute [sadly not a floating head portayed by Sir Patrick moore].

Graydon Creed, who didn't really do that much damage until after the whole plot was abandoned.

Fabian Cortez only did one thing and he didnt even do that properly [kll magneto]

Shinobi shaw, god only knows what his points were given for [was it the supposed death of the reavers and jean grey during the whole hellions death scenario?]

Fitzroy, as someone mentioned not thinking about the future stupid man.

Von stuckers, dont even get me started on them


Edit: Just found the list of points and reson given:
Shinobi killed his dad [who wasn't dead]
Fitzroy killed Donald pierce [who wasnt dead] and the hellions [two came back to life tarrot and catseye?]
Cortez killed Magneto [also not dead]
sienna blaze tried to kill cyke,storm and charlie
graydon tried to kill his parents
Von struckers tried to kidnap rhane and bring omega red back to live [although i'm sure this was before they started playing]

Big time failers the lot of them

[jarrod]

I think the Upstarts competition was initially just going to be a means to an end too, with it's conclusion establishing them as the new inner circle (and Selene as Lord Imperial). We kinda got that with Shinobi I guess, but none of the others really and Selene's coup didn't happen until later (with her demonic HFC lineup).

[Josef F.]

Spiral is convoluted.

But she's supposed to be an alternate universe version of Ricochet Rita corrupted by Mojo and then the WildWays. It's why she could kidnap herself during the Longshot series... she didn't. Alternate-Rita (Spiral) kidnapped Ricochet Rita.

And, yeah, it's never been explained well, either. A lot of Spiral's motivations aren't.

Spiral went back in time to kidnap herself for mojo, for an UNKOWN reason.
He then turns her INTO Spiral.
She's a Paradox.
She should and Can not exist
Her insanity is a direct result of her blind devotion.
Fabulous story.

[hawkeye comeback]

Xorn the original story was too good and then the mess it up and now i so confused i dont actually care about the story anymore

[Zombie Uatu]

I pretty much agree with the Cable thing as the most convoluted story. And to think, people for some reason think X-Man is more complicated! His origin, at least, is simple enough - last survivor of a doomed world, like Superman.

[Bic]

Rachel's story only becomes wierd when it involves cable.
I'm beginning to think that Cable's secondary mutation is the power to make everything around him ridiculously complicated.

[Push You Down]

I still wish they'd have made Cable the clone and Stryfe the original.

Back in the day I swore this was going to be the big reveal at the end of X-Cutioners Song.

[worstblogever]

Back in the day I swore this was going to be the big reveal at the end of X-Cutioners Song.

But it worked out so well when they did it with Ben Reilly and Peter Parker. :redface:

[Leirus]

I am too lazy to review all the posts... but it seems nobody has mentioned the Brian Rusell/Shatterstar mess? The one where they tried to explain Shatterstar origin and he was a catatonic young man in an asilum or something?

That made no sense. And I must say, the Askani future is the one sector of the X-stories that holds no interest to me, it seems too complicated and boring and out of place...

[worstblogever]

I am too lazy to review all the posts... but it seems nobody has mentioned the Brian Rusell/Shatterstar mess? The one where they tried to explain Shatterstar origin and he was a catatonic young man in an asilum or something?

That made no sense. And I must say, the Askani future is the one sector of the X-stories that holds no interest to me, it seems too complicated and boring and out of place...

Shatterstar Saga was mentioned in the first post, but not reviewed upon further. It went like this:


Is Shatterstar the child of Dazzler and Longshot ?
When they learned of the pregnancy, Longshot suggested “Shatterstar“ as a name. Also Shatterstar’s mutant power of transforming sound into a vibrational shockwave (channeled through his sword) seems to point at him being related to Dazzler who has the similar ability of transmuting sound into light.
On the other hand, Dazzler seems to have lost the baby, and Shatterstar has been clearly named to be from 100 years in the future. (New Mutants #100 and X-Force #60)


What is the connection between Benjamin Russel and Shatterstar ? And how does Spiral fit into it ?
Benjamin Russel was revealed as a mutant from earth, looking exactly like Shatterstar (or Shatterstar like him). He was comatose and held at the Weissman institute. Spiral, which not everybody might know, too originates from earth. She was a stuntwoman called Ricochet Rita and was one of the first Earth people that Longshot ever met. Once she was captured by Mojo, tortured and modified into Spiral. In X-Force #61, Shatterstar’s body is dying and so his essence is placed into the comatose body of Benjamin Russel. Spiral knew where to find the boy :

Cable : "Spiral, how did you know to come to this place (Weissman Institute) ? How did you know about this particular boy ?"
Spiral : "Is it not enough that Shatterstar will live again to fulfill his destiny ? Is it not enough that both young men mean more than all the world to me .. ?" (tears in her eyes)
Shatterstar : “I ... live And for the first time in a long while ... I feel whole. Thank you."

Sounds like the resemblance between the two is more than coincidence, almost as if they were once separated and now are made whole ? Maybe Spiral's body shop is involved (somehow Revanche / Psylocke come to mind). Maybe Spiral split the baby's DNA into a more human and more Longshot-race version ?




Theory :
Spiral was jealous of Dazzler and Longshot. She used her magics to steal the baby from Alison's belly, leading to the assumption of a miscarriage, while the child was placed in Spiral’s own utero. Timedancing she escaped ca. 80 years into the future where she carried and received the baby and after it was born she left him there to be raised into the legendary warrior that would one day end Mojo's dictatorship.
Quite unexpected, Spiral developed maternal feelings and wanted to be near the child; so she cloned the boy, altered the DNA in the body shop to make him more human, and placed him with a nice family on earth. Whenever she wanted to, she could pop up and observe him growing up as Benjamin Russel. Jumping to the future of the Mojoverse every now and then to check on the original boy would be too dangerous with the many TV cameras around.
(Sounds too much like Cyclops - Phoenix - Cable - Stryfe, doesn't it ?)

And... that's a mess!

[jarrod]

But it worked out so well when they did it with Ben Reilly and Peter Parker. :redface:
:P

It'd have been GREAT for Cable, he'd actually be more sympathetic if he were the clone imo and it would've gone some way towards perhaps humanizing Stryfe as well. Then you have the symbolic inversion of the Jean/Maddie setup, the potential psychology of what being an individual actually means (rather than the clones = evil + crazy + expendable 90s mentality), there'd be a bigger emotional impact on all sides (Scott realizing what's become of his son, Cable struggle to move past that, Jean seeing the similarities between Cable & Maddie, Stryfe's feelings of abandonment would've been at least slightly justified, etc)... I dunno, it just would've been so engagingly complex in a fundamental way, where as the arc as is was sort of boringly cliche.

I'm not usually one for retcons of established X-canon, but I honestly wouldn't mind a retcon of this one. Just say Mother Askani "lied" or something.

[worstblogever]

:P

It'd have been GREAT for Cable, he'd actually be more sympathetic if he were the clone imo and it would've gone some way towards perhaps humanizing Stryfe as well. Then you have the symbolic inversion of the Jean/Maddie setup, the potential psychology of what being an individual actually means (rather than the clones = evil + crazy + expendable 90s mentality), there'd be a bigger emotional impact on all sides (Scott realizing what's become of his son, Cable struggle to move past that, Jean seeing the similarities between Cable & Maddie, Stryfe's feelings of abandonment would've been at least slightly justified, etc)... I dunno, it just would've been so engagingly complex in a fundamental way, where as the arc as is was sort of boringly cliche.

I'm not usually one for retcons of established X-canon, but I honestly wouldn't mind a retcon of this one. Just say Mother Askani "lied" or something.

Engagingly complex?

Yes, because that's exactly what Cable's origin needs... more complexity. :redface:

[jarrod]

Engagingly complex?

Yes, because that's exactly what Cable's origin needs... more complexity. :redface:
Well, the complexity would've been emotional and psychological, it'd have added a sophistication and weight to all the turmoil and angst... something Cable's origin actually DOES need imo. :P

[worstblogever]

Well, the complexity would've been emotional and psychological, it'd have added a sophistication and weight to all the turmoil and angst... something Cable's origin actually DOES need imo. :P

NAH! Let's just give him a PSIMITAR! Or uh... a bigger gun!

I keed, of course.

I'm still not sold on the Cable status quo, whenever they start to make him personable, they make him a tough guy. Trying to alter him by tweaking his origin makes you revisit that mess of an origin. It's a no-win situation, really.

[jarrod]

NAH! Let's just give him a PSIMITAR! Or uh... a bigger gun!

I keed, of course.

I'm still not sold on the Cable status quo, whenever they start to make him personable, they make him a tough guy. Trying to alter him by tweaking his origin makes you revisit that mess of an origin. It's a no-win situation, really.
Yeah, doing this stuff retroactively never has the same sort of impact... still, quite the missed opportunity imo. Who'd have thought Rob Liefield of all people had it right? :/

[worstblogever]

Yeah, doing this stuff retroactively never has the same sort of impact... still, quite the missed opportunity imo. Who'd have thought Rob Liefield of all people had it right? :/

I wouldn't say that he did.


But man... Robert Kirkman really missed his chance to hit the "reset" button on Cable in the Ultimate universe completely... and went even further off the mark than I could have imagined.

[AdamYJ]

I remember thinking that the stuff about Bishop's future and the traitor to the X-Men was a bit confusing back in the day.

[Muggs]

:P

It'd have been GREAT for Cable, he'd actually be more sympathetic if he were the clone imo and it would've gone some way towards perhaps humanizing Stryfe as well. Then you have the symbolic inversion of the Jean/Maddie setup, the potential psychology of what being an individual actually means (rather than the clones = evil + crazy + expendable 90s mentality), there'd be a bigger emotional impact on all sides (Scott realizing what's become of his son, Cable struggle to move past that, Jean seeing the similarities between Cable & Maddie, Stryfe's feelings of abandonment would've been at least slightly justified, etc)... I dunno, it just would've been so engagingly complex in a fundamental way, where as the arc as is was sort of boringly cliche.

I'm not usually one for retcons of established X-canon, but I honestly wouldn't mind a retcon of this one. Just say Mother Askani "lied" or something.

Which has carried over into this decade sadly.

Anyway. What would have been GREAT for Cable is if he was just some grizzled soldier that had no relationship to the Summers family tree.

Marvel missed the opportunity to hit the re-set button for Cable (and Rachel & Bishop) in 616 with House of M.

Reading through this thread is a bit depressing. Some of the X Universe is way more complicated than nesscessary and a bit of a head fuck really.

[worstblogever]

Which has carried over into this decade sadly.

Anyway. What would have been GREAT for Cable is if he was just some grizzled soldier that had no relationship to the Summers family tree.

Marvel missed the opportunity to hit the re-set button for Cable (and Rachel & Bishop) in 616 with House of M.

Reading through this thread is a bit depressing. Some of the X Universe is way more complicated than nesscessary and a bit of a head fuck really.

And we haven't even mentioned how Storm's actually a sorceress, yet.

Or her, or any other character like Magneto or Cable being de-aged and re-aged.


Yep, thinks are weird for the children of the atom sometimes.

[Zombie Uatu]

And we haven't even mentioned how Storm's actually a sorceress, yet.

Or her, or any other character like Magneto or Cable being de-aged and re-aged.


Yep, thinks are weird for the children of the atom sometimes.

Not to hijack the thread, but you'd think being born into a world that hates and fears you with superpowers would be strange enough. Why do the X-Men always go time-travelling with aliens from an alternate dimension, as well? Is it some sort of side-effect?

[jarrod]

But man... Robert Kirkman really missed his chance to hit the "reset" button on Cable in the Ultimate universe completely... and went even further off the mark than I could have imagined.
UGH! The less said about Kirkman's systematic destruction of UltX, the better.


Anyway. What would have been GREAT for Cable is if he was just some grizzled soldier that had no relationship to the Summers family tree.
That was Liefield's desire too actually, he always wanted Cable to be just a cyborg from the future. After Harras/Lee decided to make Nate into Cable (and Stryfe into a clone), Liefield fought to make Cable the clone, but was overrided.

[worstblogever]

Not to hijack the thread, but you'd think being born into a world that hates and fears you with superpowers would be strange enough. Why do the X-Men always go time-travelling with aliens from an alternate dimension, as well? Is it some sort of side-effect?

Seems to happen to everybody through the Marvel U, really, once they get powers. But the X-Men spend more time off planet than the rest.

[DeadXMan]

Not if you compare it with Rachel's, no.

Then considering he was going to be Canonball from the future

xorn is/isn't magneto.
that used to give me a head ach until I desided it was Wonda's dry run for disassemble.

[Victorious]

Xorneto!

The St Croix Family!

Ernst/Cassandra Nova!

[TJKernan]

this thread just gets my blood boiling...

I was such a huge X-fan in the good old days, starting prior to the 200's of Uncanny.

Then I think about how convoluted everything got in the X-Universe, with the Siege Perilous garbage and Psylockes awful transformation and Cable and Rachel and Phoenix and Reignfire and what a jumbled, horrific mess the X-Men became in the 90's.

Turned me off of mainstream comics for a decade...

[rwsmith]

Which has carried over into this decade sadly.

Anyway. What would have been GREAT for Cable is if he was just some grizzled soldier that had no relationship to the Summers family tree.

Marvel missed the opportunity to hit the re-set button for Cable (and Rachel & Bishop) in 616 with House of M.

Exactly! I couldn't agree more. They should've had Cable, Rachel and Bishop's origins all magically re-written as a side-effect of Wanda's messing with reality at the end of House of M.

- Cable would've just been a grizzled old soldier with some cybernetics.

- Rachel would've been Jean's younger sister or cousin or something.

- Bishop would've just been an ex-cop from this era.

[drupgyu]

this thread just gets my blood boiling...

I was such a huge X-fan in the good old days, starting prior to the 200's of Uncanny.

Then I think about how convoluted everything got in the X-Universe, with the Siege Perilous garbage and Psylockes awful transformation and Cable and Rachel and Phoenix and Reignfire and what a jumbled, horrific mess the X-Men became in the 90's.

Turned me off of mainstream comics for a decade...

Ditto....I am giving Brubaker a chance and Astonishing was good with Whedon

[alf_to_the_rescue]

The Stepford Cuckoos origin... I cant believe I bought every issue of Warsong... What a waste.

[CaptainCanada]

Exactly! I couldn't agree more. They should've had Cable, Rachel and Bishop's origins all magically re-written as a side-effect of Wanda's messing with reality at the end of House of M.

- Cable would've just been a grizzled old soldier with some cybernetics.

- Rachel would've been Jean's younger sister or cousin or something.

- Bishop would've just been an ex-cop from this era.
There's no need to rewrite Rachel or Bishop's origins; they're from alternate futures where bad stuff happened; that's not that complicated.

[worstblogever]

I'd like to also throw another contender into the ring...

Queen Jean

X-Man had long since been dealing with the fact he somehow resurrected Madelyne Pryor in X-Man #5, and she was back amongst the Hellfire Club, becoming Sebastian Shaw's new paramour while manipulating Nate Grey.

Ironically, this would a good usage of the character, comparitively.

Then suddenly, we find out she's a psychic construct created by Nate Grey.

Then, she disappears for awhile, only to return...except it's not her, it's a Jean Grey from an alternate Earth who killed Maddie... off-panel, giving Mads her second death, and then tried to replace her and conquer the world.

Oy. Just... Oy.

[markdienekes]

hmm, can't delete anymore : (

[markdienekes]

There's no need to rewrite Rachel or Bishop's origins; they're from alternate futures where bad stuff happened; that's not that complicated.

no need to rewrite Cable's either. It's not hard to understand if you take the time to learn it. Now, Japanese, that's hard to learn...

[rwsmith]

I don't necessarily want to change them because they're too complicated (well, except for Cable's), but rather because they're cliched and sucky. At least IMO.

"Refugee from a war-torn future goes back in time to prevent it" is just lame---especially if they're from an alternate future anyway, so whatever they do in this timeline has no impact on the one they came from!? It's idiotic.

[jarrod]

Rachel's origin isn't lame or complicated, it's pretty basic time travel sci-fi stuff. Now, if CC's plan to make her literally into Mutant Jesus had come to pass... now that might be problematic. :wink:

I'm still a fan of tweaking Ray's parentage though (ie: daddy Logan).

[marvell2100]

Most of the problems stem from characters from alternate timelines or from the future. They should put a moratorium on this type of thing. All characters should come from the same timeline(ours), past or present. Just have it stated that they come from different points in that(our) reality. If Cable is from roughly 2000-3000yrs in the future amd Bishop about 70-100, why can't they be from the same timeline. Same as Rachel, same as Days of Future Present, same as any other person or event. It would go a long way to get rid of alot of unnecessary baggage.

[ExodusCloak]

Most of the problems stem from characters from alternate timelines or from the future. They should put a moratorium on this type of thing. All characters should come from the same timeline(ours), past or present. Just have it stated that they come from different points in that(our) reality. If Cable is from roughly 2000-3000yrs in the future amd Bishop about 70-100, why can't they be from the same timeline. Same as Rachel, same as Days of Future Present, same as any other person or event. It would go a long way to get rid of alot of unnecessary baggage.

Because time travel itself is a concept that is too convoluted to be so simplistic. In most Sci-Fi stories time isn't static it's constantly shifting and diverging and branching off into new realities, therefore if the future is referenced in a a series it doesn't necessarily mean that future has to happen since changing the past alters the future. If they had it your way then we'd have to streamline the writing so that Bishop, Cables, Rachels, Spidermans, Captain America's, Thors, Black Panthers etc.. futures ALL come true at some point in time.

They should just stop making alternate reality characters and referencing time travel or at least lessen the usage of it.

[marvell2100]

Because time travel itself is a concept that is too convoluted to be so simplistic. In most Sci-Fi stories time isn't static it's constantly shifting and diverging and branching off into new realities, therefore if the future is referenced in a a series it doesn't necessarily mean that future has to happen since changing the past alters the future. If they had it your way then we'd have to streamline the writing so that Bishop, Cables, Rachels, Spidermans, Captain America's, Thors, Black Panthers etc.. futures ALL come true at some point in time.

They should just stop making alternate reality characters and referencing time travel or at least lessen the usage of it.

It's only convoluted because the writers make it convoluted. As far as time not being being static, it's simple: you either move forward or backward in time. you don't move sideways. With so many characters from different timelines or realities, why do they always end up in this reality? Again, the writers make this more complicated than it should be. And why can't these events come true at some point? That's the purpose isn't it? These events are spread out enough for them to occur. The details of how it happens doesn't necessarily have to happen as planned as long as the event itself happens.

[La Fea]

hmm, can't delete anymore : (

That's how I feel about most of these stories. :(

[ExodusCloak]

It's only convoluted because the writers make it convoluted. As far as time not being being static, it's simple: you either move forward or backward in time. you don't move sideways. With so many characters from different timelines or realities, why do they always end up in this reality? Again, the writers make this more complicated than it should be. And why can't these events come true at some point? that'sthe purpose isn't it? These events are spread out enough for them to occur. The details of how it happens doesn't necessarily have to happen as planned as long as the event itself happens.

The problem with only being able to move forward and backwards is that silly ideas are not easily erased and then there's also the whole we have control over our own destinies and events aren't predetermined thing.

A lot of those future events shouldn't come true mainly because one writer does not remain on the book for 5 years and another writer may not want to streamline their stories towards that particular idea as the idea itself may be cliched and silly. A non static timeline means that any problems that arise from a story can be fixed but that leads to the convolution.

Also a static timeline means that there's really no point in timetravelling because you will not be able to change the future anyway.

[Affinity]

The Stepford Cuckoos origin... I cant believe I bought every issue of Warsong... What a waste.

Ohmygod I KNOWWWWW. That was ridiculously stupid and unnecessary. Entirely. That story did NOT need to be told.

I was also annoyed with they made their last name "Cuckoo" and not Stepford. They could have gone either way, but Stepford as the last name would have been cuter, with Cuckoo as the moniker.

Exactly! I couldn't agree more. They should've had Cable, Rachel and Bishop's origins all magically re-written as a side-effect of Wanda's messing with reality at the end of House of M.

- Cable would've just been a grizzled old soldier with some cybernetics.

- Rachel would've been Jean's younger sister or cousin or something.

- Bishop would've just been an ex-cop from this era.
OOH. I would have liked this.

[Muggs]

There's no need to rewrite Rachel or Bishop's origins; they're from alternate futures where bad stuff happened; that's not that complicated.

No at that level Rachel's and Bishop's origin's are quite straight forward, if a little cliched. It's just the amount of stuff that's been piled on top by Marvel since then, and the fact that it creates problems later on.

Bishop's been an X Men since 1992. 16 years our time. 4 years Marvel time. You'd have thought he'd have mentioned the Messiah Complex baby to his teamates at some point. Obviously this storyline didn't exist when Bishop was created, but any event which happens after people from the future show up. makes you wonder why they didn't mention it when Marvel introduces the story into the present day.

With all these time travelling X Men, you'd have thought someone would have had the courtesy to mention something significant like M Day.

I understand Cable's backstory, but it's still a mess. And has really hindered the character in someways. Cable's probably on about equal footing with Deadpool and Gambit in the popularity stakes. Wade and Remy are making their big screen debut's next year. Wonder why Nathan isn't?

[Valeria Kementari]

Dudes, coming from the future doesn't mean comign from earth 616's future. In Bishop's timeline there might not have been an "M-Day" ever or a Messiah baby ever, heck isn't his reality supposed to be Earth 92811 or something? It's a different realitiy, all futures are different realities and NOT Earth 616's future, ergo there is no way for them to know if the events of their past is the same as the events from Earth 616.

[jarrod]

Rachel's not really from too far in the future either... she'd be from maybe 4-5 years at most from now, and her timeline diverged years back when Mystique failed to kill Senator Kelly.

[Squidboy]

Seeing a new thread posted on the forums, I'd like to nominate Loeb's Evolution arc in Wolverine for consideration. The plot of Wolverine evolving from an animal was originally rejected for a reason, and now there's this all-new confusing mess to deal with when going over Wolverine's origins.

[ExodusCloak]

Dudes, coming from the future doesn't mean comign from earth 616's future. In Bishop's timeline there might not have been an "M-Day" ever or a Messiah baby ever, heck isn't his reality supposed to be Earth 92811 or something? It's a different realitiy, all futures are different realities and NOT Earth 616's future, ergo there is no way for them to know if the events of their past is the same as the events from Earth 616.

Bishop actually did know about M-day but he knew it as a boogeymanesque type story that was used to scare mutant children see the Endangered Species one-shot. And Bishop also knew about the Messiah Baby otherwise he wouldn't have bothered to do what he did in the Messiah Complex. His future may be an alternate reality but the reality itself must be postitioned right next to reality 616 as they are quite similar. The What if where Gladiator broke Adamantium was an enatiomer of reality 616.

[Daithi]

Dudes, coming from the future doesn't mean comign from earth 616's future. In Bishop's timeline there might not have been an "M-Day" ever or a Messiah baby ever, heck isn't his reality supposed to be Earth 92811 or something? It's a different realitiy, all futures are different realities and NOT Earth 616's future, ergo there is no way for them to know if the events of their past is the same as the events from Earth 616.

Actually the basic plotline for Cable and Bishop's current characters is that their future is the future of Earth 616.

It's actually Rachel who doesn't have knowledge of the future and only notices similarities with her own time. It's being firmly established on panel that she's from an alternate universe. So I tend to view Rachel as more a "refugee" (go back to your own time, etc, etc) than Cable or Bishop who have really took up the more sci-fi aspect.

[maigen]

Speaking of Cable, what was up with him getting plowed into by a teenie-bopper Rogue? That was random to say the least.

Rogue's past is a big messed up ball o' something else too.

This thread gives me a headache.

[rwsmith]

Cable actually returned to the present era years before the X-men even formed. He did freelance mercenary work for the U.S. government for years (if not decades) before eventually running into the New Mutants and molding them into X-Force. Besides Rogue, he also had past run-ins with Professor X, Moira McTaggert, and Wolverine.

[jarrod]

Yeah, way back when he formed the Six Pack and got his Harvard Law Degree. :biggrin:

He was also working with Weapon X briefly, right? I wonder who else he might've met running in those circles (Magneto, Mystique/Destiny, Wisdom ,etc)?

[protogarrett]

THe most confusing one ever, EVER?

THE TWO XORNS AND MAGNETO PROBLEM

[rwsmith]

Yeah, way back when he formed the Six Pack and got his Harvard Law Degree. :biggrin:

He was also working with Weapon X briefly, right? I wonder who else he might've met running in those circles (Magneto, Mystique/Destiny, Wisdom ,etc)?

He was? When was this established? I never knew Nate had any ties to Weapon X. For some reason Department H (who may've had something to do with Weapon X, I think, or at least Alpha Flight) was hunting him for awhile, but I never really knew why.

This is something that Duane Swiercynski ought to explore in Cable at some point down the road IMO, or perhaps Daniel Way could do it over in Wolverine Origins (especially if he'll also explain what happened between Wolverine and Cable in Madripoor that caused them to dislike each other so much initially).

[ThreeDays]

Cable actually returned to the present era years before the X-men even formed. He did freelance mercenary work for the U.S. government for years (if not decades) ...

It couldn't have been decades. Cable was only supposed to be in his early 30s as of Cable #43 back in 1997.

[majamD]

Oh no. A baby born from a clone gets a disease from a celestially powered mutant and is sent to the future, cloned himself and grows up becoming a messiah who will end the celestial mutants reign of terror. He comes back in time with his clone and then saves another baby and runs into the future.

Man I completely get it now haha :biggrin:

[marvell2100]

The problem with only being able to move forward and backwards is that silly ideas are not easily erased and then there's also the whole we have control over our own destinies and events aren't predetermined thing.

A lot of those future events shouldn't come true mainly because one writer does not remain on the book for 5 years and another writer may not want to streamline their stories towards that particular idea as the idea itself may be cliched and silly. A non static timeline means that any problems that arise from a story can be fixed but that leads to the convolution.

Also a static timeline means that there's really no point in timetravelling because you will not be able to change the future anyway.

Again it goes back to the writers but moreso upon the editors. When you do multiple time travel stories with a myriad of possibilities then you weaken any probability of anything at all happening. There should always be consequences for any actions involving time travel/alt realities other than to introduce a new character. That is one of the laziest writing techniqes ever created. It's up to the editor to prevent "silly ideas"(which I totally agree with you there) from ever happening. This is why we have this particular thread in the first place. Time is always linear. you go forwards or backwards. The thing is that there are various points in time where events occur. To say that it's not possible for these events to happen in the same timeline I believe is not quite accurate. As I said earlier, the thing is when the events occur. Enough time has elapsed between events in the MU for events that occur in the future to happen. Too many writers have used time travel/alt realities as a crutch to introduce new characters or to create "shock value" moments without any thought or consequences to (forgive the pun) future stories or writers. Again, I ask why do all of these characters from these timelines/ alt realities keep appearing in this timeline? How can you prevent your future/reality from happening if you don't know what future/reality you're in?

[SayOcean]

I loooooved the Upstarts...am i the only one? I loved the rich boys club full of mutants......I think it was a good change form the same rule the world motive...

and hey if scott lobdell orginally intended there for not to be a M then WHO was know it all in the AoA

[Jeff-X]

and hey if scott lobdell orginally intended there for not to be a M then WHO was know it all in the AoA

Her little sister Claudette, as I believe she was called at some point during AoA.

[SayOcean]

then who where the M twins that were shown in the book

[Leirus]

then who where the M twins that were shown in the book

That is exactly why that is a convoluted story...

When Gen-next was published, the retcon had not happened yet, so you had Claudette as Know it all. After the retcon, they published that AoA special featuring the M twins, thus retconning Know it all into the original M as a side effect :mad:

[Jeff-X]

That is exactly why that is a convoluted story...

When Gen-next was published, the retcon had not happened yet, so you had Claudette as Know it all. After the retcon, they published that AoA special featuring the M twins, thus retconning Know it all into the original M as a side effect :mad:

The twins appearing in the AOA special was the result of a writer and an editor not paying enough attention, or not knowing or remembering enough about the story they were writing and editing.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Quick correction, but in Claremont's story the Hand did the insta-ninja mighty morph themselves, the Siege just delivered a freshly mindwiped british Betsy in their laps. Mojo and Spiral might've been involved, but it was very much left open to interpretation... if they were, the Hand weren't aware of it. The Hand were themselves only working for the Mandarin.

Indeed. I mean the events we see panning out in Betsy's mind (In what is an absolutely brilliantly done story both from Claremont's writing and Lee's art) certainly feature Mojo and Spiral making her over (Mojo plays a footman at the club where she has it done) but these events are all a jumbled reworking of associations in Betsy's mind as she is reprogrammed.

I mean we start with young Betsy and Brian playing together as kids, but by the time that they meet Jamie on way home they have aged. When Betsy gets into Jamie's car she suddenly finds herself as an adult driving the car with Doug Ramsey as a frightened passenger. She's still blond in this sequence, and not yet dying her hair - and the dye job came in long before she even joined the X-men let alone met Doug. The events throughout these sequences continuously blur what we know from continuity. But it's an intentional blur, to show that Betsy's mind is being meddled with. And by that token anything that you read into having happened within that sequence is purely your own interpretation.

In Fabe's version, he changed that from a transformation to a full on body swap/mind meld combo (this is Kwannon, she's slutty, she used to sleep with her boss, which is why Betsy's suddenly been doing the bend-and-snap for Cyke), involved Spiral directly (evidently third-party hired to do work for the Hand which... uh... is pretty much already something the Hand's been proven capable of themselves), the Mandarin went MIA (y'know, the guy who wanted the whole thing done in the first place) and generally Fabe just kind of killed it. The first story was inoffensive (if redundant, we didn't need Elektra 2) but still relatively straight forward. The second was a straight up clusterfuck, undoubtedly having something to do with Fabe not ever reading the entire original arc.

Absolutely. The two don't even begin to match. There is not even a hint of a mind swap in the original story. She is purely be reprogrammed to work for the Mandarin. It's a deal between the Hand and and Him. Nobody else.

I'm beginning to think that Cable's secondary mutation is the power to make everything around him ridiculously complicated.

If it is, it seems to be working...

Then I think about how convoluted everything got in the X-Universe, with the Siege Perilous garbage and Psylockes awful transformation and Cable and Rachel and Phoenix and Reignfire and what a jumbled, horrific mess the X-Men became in the 90's.

I don't really think that the Siege is to blame, here. It brought us some other very interesting angles - with Rogue and Colossus. It was also kind of responsible for Bastion. The problem was that it was only ever intended to be temporary. Psylocke's change became permanent. That was a big mistake.

Most of the problems stem from characters from alternate timelines or from the future. They should put a moratorium on this type of thing. All characters should come from the same timeline(ours), past or present. Just have it stated that they come from different points in that(our) reality.

I think the problem truly stems from whichever pillock decided that alternate futures had to be alternate universes. At the point that stories like Days of Future Past were written there was not consideration of alternate universes within the X-Books. There was only ONE timeline. The one that we read. The future that we see, with concentration camps and almost all the heroes dead, is the REAL future of the Marvel Universe at that time. It's what will come to pass. The only reason it doesn't is because the future Kate Pryde cam back in her former self's body and changed it - stopping that future from happening. Complete story. Done.

Sod the science. Suspend your disbelief. The timeline has been changed by an outside phenomenon. But it recovered by some quirk of nature, and life went on. No end of the world here. Done.

If you work on that principle there is no problem. When each time traveller arrives it is from THE future (Not A future) at that point in continuity. When the events which occur in that story are done, there is no way for the character to go home because their future no longer exists. They are stuck. Job done. No more continuity problems, no more visitors from their time to complicate matters. Finished.

So that would mean that Rachel Summers becomes displaced from time because her future never comes to pass. As does Bishop. Cable's future also cannot come to pass because things in the present changed to stop that from happening. At the time of Rachel's story THAT'S the future. By the time we see Bishop's story THAT is. And so on. All simple closed stories. Only the characters remain.

The problem comes when you break that rule. If you start trying to turn their time-lines into parallel dimensions, which you can loot at will for new adversaries, or start sending existing characters backwards and forwards to those parallel worlds it all just starts to be convoluted and mostly very confusing.

Parallel worlds should be reserved for alternate universe stories unconnected with mainstream continuity.

[Anna]

Wild Child. From Byrne's original intent to use him as a substitute for Wolverine as Sabertooth's 60-year-old son, to his supposedly being kidnapped, and infused with Wyre's DNA, to Kyle Gibney, to being involved in the Romulus/Daken disaster.
And then there's Nightcrawler and the Draco.

[KJ_81]

Xorn.

A cluster$*#% of epic proportion.

[MartinRedmond]

Morrison's run doesn't make much sense. Magneto's a vegetable paraplegic who gets nuked. So he builds himself a fake huuuuggeeee jail in China (for gazillions of dollars) knowing the X-Men will come and get him (of course!!!). Joins the X-Men. Converts Asteroid M into Weapon X or w/e (ca-$$$$hing) which morphs into a rocket that sends 2 X-Men straight into the sun ($$$$$). All that to teach Xavier a lesson about how much money Magneto's not spending on getting mutants proper jobs and shelter.

100 years later, Beast is "dark" because he sniffed mutated bacteria, the end.

[marvell2100]

I think the problem truly stems from whichever pillock decided that alternate futures had to be alternate universes. At the point that stories like Days of Future Past were written there was not consideration of alternate universes within the X-Books. There was only ONE timeline. The one that we read. The future that we see, with concentration camps and almost all the heroes dead, is the REAL future of the Marvel Universe at that time. It's what will come to pass. The only reason it doesn't is because the future Kate Pryde cam back in her former self's body and changed it - stopping that future from happening. Complete story. Done.

Sod the science. Suspend your disbelief. The timeline has been changed by an outside phenomenon. But it recovered by some quirk of nature, and life went on. No end of the world here. Done.

If you work on that principle there is no problem. When each time traveller arrives it is from THE future (Not A future) at that point in continuity. When the events which occur in that story are done, there is no way for the character to go home because their future no longer exists. They are stuck. Job done. No more continuity problems, no more visitors from their time to complicate matters. Finished.

So that would mean that Rachel Summers becomes displaced from time because her future never comes to pass. As does Bishop. Cable's future also cannot come to pass because things in the present changed to stop that from happening. At the time of Rachel's story THAT'S the future. By the time we see Bishop's story THAT is. And so on. All simple closed stories. Only the characters remain.

The problem comes when you break that rule. If you start trying to turn their time-lines into parallel dimensions, which you can loot at will for new adversaries, or start sending existing characters backwards and forwards to those parallel worlds it all just starts to be convoluted and mostly very confusing.

Parallel worlds should be reserved for alternate universe stories unconnected with mainstream continuity.

Thanks. I think you said what I was trying to say in a much better way and made alot more sense.

[SayOcean]

uhhhh what AOA special are you talking about the M twins appeared working with Emplate under Cyclops and Havok as ....prelates I think....at the same time Know it All was working with Gen Next....

[Swashbuckler]

uhhhh what AOA special are you talking about the M twins appeared working with Emplate under Cyclops and Havok as ....prelates I think....at the same time Know it All was working with Gen Next....

Emplate appeared in the special Tales of the Age of Aocalypse which was printed in late 1996. The original AOA Gen-Next story was printed in 1995.

[Squidboy]

THe most confusing one ever, EVER?

THE TWO XORNS AND MAGNETO PROBLEM

I'd really like Marvel to finally resolve this matter, though I think there's always the possiblity that they'll only make it more confusing somehow. I mean, if it wasn't for the second Xorn, then the retcon that the first Xorn was someone created by Wanda's madness could be acceptable, but now the fact that Xorn was a separate person with a family and everything would need to be factored into that retcon, and it could become some freaking mess. The ultimate solution: the Xorn brothers were Skrulls, and by infiltrating the X-Men and impersonating Magneto, they hoped to have mutantkind taken out of the equation for their invasion. When that failed, the Skrull queen that was running around during House of M has to work her magic a little bit, resulting in the decimation of mutantkind. Skrulls solve all!