Are Psychics Too Powerful For Comics

[336Deadpool616]

I posted this here because the x universe have most of the psychics in marvel and i was just wondering do ya'll think psychics are to powerful maybe they killed jean grey because she was too powerful i mean she could take out most of the villians without the x men help so could emma frost rachel grey i think some people just dont understand just how powerful they are they can just go in your mind and shut it down but it seems that writers just have them using thier tk power

what i think is they should do is give each of them thier own field like

karma strong suit is mind control and psylocke with psionic energy
what do yall think

[Joe Acro]

I posted this here because the x universe have most of the psychics in marvel and i was just wondering do ya'll think psychics are to powerful maybe they killed jean grey because she was too powerful i mean she could take out most of the villians without the x men help so could emma frost rachel grey i think some people just dont understand just how powerful they are they can just go in your mind and shut it down but it seems that writers just have them using thier tk power
Whoa whoa whoa. Slow down.

Okay, the X-Books have the most psychics. That's a fair statement.

I do not think they are too powerful. Some of the greatest psychics in the Marvel universe aren't even mutants.

I doubt killing Jean was due to her power level.

I'm not sure how much potential Emma has for taking down large numbers of villains by her lonesome. I know Rachel can, but that's largely using her telekinesis.

Psychics could go into people's heads and shut them down, but they have ethics. Well, the heroic ones do, anyway.

[Silver Fox]

I always thought it'd be neat to have an assassin who used their telepathic powers to give people strokes/heartattacks. They would be able to attack without being noticed (granted their TK powers weren't all glowy) and most of the time no one would even know it was murder. Sorry, little off-topic there.

I don't believe Psychics are to powerful since there are devices that can disrupt telepathy and it also takes a lot of concentration to even use said powers. There are ways around it, to combat it, so I don't believe it's over-powered.

I do like it when the telepaths/telekinetics are specialized (i.e. Karma with mind-control) since their powers are supposed to be difficult to manage. It would make sense to narrow down what they can and can't do.

[cgar]

the mutants lost most of there telepaths or powerful ones at least. Cable lost it, Jeans dead, Racheal in space for who knows how long, betsy is tk only now, moonstar depowered i think she had some, shadow king dead

we only got emma and professor xavier
dont know about the bad guys though

[DeniseXfrost]

I don't believe Psychics are to powerful since there are devices that can disrupt telepathy
which everyone and their mother has a least one.

[Bingo!]

Psychics are essential for psi-plane extra-marital affairs and 'nuff said extravagance.

[creaky]

which everyone and their mother has a least one.

I found one on sale yesterday at K-Mart.

[Tobias March]

I don't think they're too powerful. They're definitely too derivative though. Each psychic should have a different application of their power, almost like a personality and let that be it. Psylocke and Emma can now do everything Jean could do - or it seems that way, even though Betsy under Claremont became more active in her use of her abilities; and Emma was more one for suggestion than overwhelming someone psychically.

I think Karma is an excellent example, as her powers are quite different. That should be explored more. Also see Danielle Moonstar.

[nikbackm]

I found one on sale yesterday at K-Mart.

I have heard that a tinfoil hat gives enough protection.

[Alex A Sanchez]

I always thought it'd be neat to have an assassin who used their telepathic powers to give people strokes/heartattacks.

There was this guy (I think his name was Psi-fire) in Rob Liefeld's Young Bood #1 (the very first Image book ever published) who had mental powers and was a government assassin. In the book, even though he could have killed from a distance, he did it up close and in person. I never read past issue #3 and I don't remember him featured very much. He was kind of a punk.

I have heard that a tinfoil hat gives enough protection.

Ahhh- so that's how Magneto's helmet works in the movies! What a punk for not sharing that info with everyone else- especially Mystique!

[336Deadpool616]

I don't think they're too powerful. They're definitely too derivative though. Each psychic should have a different application of their power, almost like a personality and let that be it. Psylocke and Emma can now do everything Jean could do - or it seems that way, even though Betsy under Claremont became more active in her use of her abilities; and Emma was more one for suggestion than overwhelming someone psychically.

I think Karma is an excellent example, as her powers are quite different. That should be explored more. Also see Danielle Moonstar.

well thats what i was talking about i think they make them to powerful they should all have at least sum difference between each other it seems all of them except karma and moon stone are grade a psychics

i always thought psylocke should be of a telekinetic since she's a ninja now telepaths shouldnt get thier hands dirty

also its kind of crazy that telepathic disrupter is strong enough to stop them i mean back in the phoenix saga jean easily destroyed one made by beast and he's one of the smartest characters in marvel

[nikbackm]

also its kind of crazy that telepathic disrupter is strong enough to stop them i mean back in the phoenix saga jean easily destroyed one made by beast and he's one of the smartest characters in marvel

That's one of Phoenix' shticks. There IS no adequate psychic shield or disruptor to protect against it.

[Kage Kisaragi]

Whoa whoa whoa. Slow down.

Okay, the X-Books have the most psychics. That's a fair statement.

I do not think they are too powerful. Some of the greatest psychics in the Marvel universe aren't even mutants.

I doubt killing Jean was due to her power level.

I'm not sure how much potential Emma has for taking down large numbers of villains by her lonesome. I know Rachel can, but that's largely using her telekinesis.

Psychics could go into people's heads and shut them down, but they have ethics. Well, the heroic ones do, anyway.

During Morrison 2000 run on New X-Men Emma took out an entire group of news casters from various papers and networks as well as protesters. Jean mentioned that shed have to remove the last five minutes from the same group of reporters memory after a shouting match between Emma and some lady. While not exactly villains, I can't see why Emma or Jean or any other telepath of the first order couldn't simple take out a group of villains who don't consist of powerful telepaths or have hive minds. I mean in all honestly I don't see Spidermans rogue gallery putting up much of a fight against an bloodlusted Emma or Jean. Heck even if they weren't bloodlusted.

To most degrees it would have been better if Marvel broke down psionics into different disciplines and restraint writers from going beyond those disciplines. Telepathy is one discipline within and of itself and can be very diverse, but telekinesis would have fallen under Psychokinesis which also has various uses and can even be broken down into sub disciplines based on elements like fire, ice, electricity, sonic, ect ect ect.. the potential is still endless but is more focused and prevents Phoenix type characters who apparently do anything and everything and quickly become killing fodder because no one wants to write god characters unless they are named Thor.

Back to telepathy since I believe thats what the OP is leaning towards in his opening statement. Yes I do believe telepaths are way to powerful in the marvel universe, specifically on marvel earth since the majority of people there don't have knowledge of telepathy, how to counter it, or any innate resistance to it. A telepath's mind is on of at least in marvel terms so advanced its ridiculous to believe that a normal person train or focus to the point they can resist 2nd or 1st order telepaths. It would be like a normal man training to become strong enough to resist a punch from the hulk, or taking a thor enhanced lightning bolt and trying to just shrug it off like it didn't happen. Using technology again isn't all that logical an answer as its silly to see organizations produce machines that counter act or give telepathic powers but yet the base human mind can still out preform (in terms of memory and complexity) any computer. So you have a technological contraption best say Emma or god forbid Xavier at his peek when it comes to telepathic powers is just poor writing.

A few reasons why Telepaths are so much more deadly than other power types.

Do not require line of sight. Xavier could kill half the planet in the span of a few seconds without ever living his house. With Cerebra theoretically the whole world save for the people who might have the power to resist it, and again with Cerebra I think that would be maybe 1 or 2 people (This does not include mythical gods or other creatures who are entirely magical since they may or may not be bound by similar constraints when it comes to how the mind works.)

Almost untraceable, the local, state and possibly most of the federal government branches don't have access to any technology or individuals who could possibly figure out who killed who using some kind of telepathic attack.

Not a whole lot of opposition. Where energy blasting powers and super strength will normally come up against targets who can resist them fairly often, mental attacks rarely do.

Telepathy allows for victories without necessarily having violent battles. The fights could span a few seconds or hours since it is all just mental anyway.

[336Deadpool616]

During Morrison 2000 run on New X-Men Emma took out an entire group of news casters from various papers and networks as well as protesters. Jean mentioned that shed have to remove the last five minutes from the same group of reporters memory after a shouting match between Emma and some lady. While not exactly villains, I can't see why Emma or Jean or any other telepath of the first order couldn't simple take out a group of villains who don't consist of powerful telepaths or have hive minds. I mean in all honestly I don't see Spidermans rogue gallery putting up much of a fight against an bloodlusted Emma or Jean. Heck even if they weren't bloodlusted.

To most degrees it would have been better if Marvel broke down psionics into different disciplines and restraint writers from going beyond those disciplines. Telepathy is one discipline with end and of itself and can be very diverse, but telekinesis would have fallen under Psychokinesis which also has various uses and can even be broken down into sub disciplines based on elements like fire, ice, electricity, sonic, ect ect ect.. the potential is still endless but is more focused and prevents Phoenix type characters who apparently do anything and everything and quickly become killing fodder because no one wants to write god characters unless they are named Thor.

Back to telepathy since I believe thats what the OP is leaning towards in his opening statement. Yes I do believe telepaths are way to powerful in the marvel universe, specifically on marvel earth since the majority of people there don't have knowledge of telepathy, how to counter it, or any innate resistance to it. A telepath's mind is on of at least in marvel terms so advanced its ridiculous to believe that a normal person train or focus to the point they can resist 2nd or 1st order telepaths. It would be like a normal man training to become strong enough to resist a punch from the hulk, or taking a thor enhanced lightning bolt and trying to just shrug it off like it didn't happen. Using technology again isn't all that logical an answer as its silly to see organizations produce machines that counter act or give telepathic powers but yet the base human mind can still out preform (in terms of memory and complexity) any computer. So you have a technological contraption best say Emma or god forbid Xavier at his peek when it comes to telepathic powers is just poor writing.

A few reasons why Telepaths are so much more deadly than other power types.

Do not require line of sight. Xavier could kill half the planet in the span of a few seconds without ever living his house. With Cerebra theoretically the whole world save for the people who might have the power to resist it, and again with Cerebra I think that would be maybe 1 or 2 people (This does not include mythical gods or other creatures who are entirely magical since they may or may not be bound by similar constraints when it comes to how the mind works.)

Almost untraceable, the local, state and possibly most of the federal government branches don't have access to any technology or individuals who could possibly figure out who killed who using some kind of telepathic attack.

Not a whole lot of opposition. Where energy blasting powers and super strength will normally come up against targets who can resist them fairly often, mental attacks rarely do.

Telepathy allows for victories without necessarily having violent battles. The fights could span a few seconds or hours since it is all just mental anyway.

thank you kage kisaragi you seem to be the only person so far to realize what psychics are capable of thiers no need for an confrontation with the villian or anything if your that powerful you can hit them without them even realizing it
the whole argument of it takes alot of concentration and practice is true but c'mon xavier jean grey emma frost had these powers for years they dont anymore training if you ask me

i just think that the writers made all of the psychics too powerful when it should be just xavier and jean grey

[nikbackm]

i just think that the writers made all of the psychics too powerful when it should be just xavier and jean grey

Why Xavier and Jean Grey in particular? Ok, Jean has the Phoenix Force so that is understandable, but Xavier does not have that as an explanation.

[Joe Acro]

thank you kage kisaragi you seem to be the only person so far to realize what psychics are capable of
It's not so much that I don't realize what they could do, but I know what they would do.

They have a lot of power, but like a super-strong character fighting someone not-invulnerable, they pull their punches and show restraint.

[336Deadpool616]

It's not so much that I don't realize what they could do, but I know what they would do.

They have a lot of power, but like a super-strong character fighting someone not-invulnerable, they pull their punches and show restraint.

you cant compare that with a super-strong character because a person with super strength will always have to be physical wether they pull punches or not

a psychic can shut down sombody why would someone show restaint when thier tryna kill you why have your teamates get injured when you can stop the whole thing to begin with

super strong people show restaint because if they hit to hard they'll kill you but if a psychic shut you down for the time being its not fatal

[Joe Acro]

you cant compare that with a super-strong character because a person with super strength will always have to be physical wether they pull punches or not

a psychic can shut down sombody why would someone show restaint when thier tryna kill you why have your teamates get injured when you can stop the whole thing to begin with

super strong people show restaint because if they hit to hard they'll kill you but if a psychic shut you down for the time being its not fatalSo, killing the enemy is wrong but lobotimizing them isn't?

That's why psychics shows restraint. The heroes that they are, they do not feel it's ethical to use their powers to tamper with, shut down, or kill the minds of their enemies. Though tampering is done and killing itself has been done on rare occasion, they just don't do it because it shouldn't be done in their minds.

I fail to see why they can't be compared to super-strong characters. If an army of super-villains storms the Baxter Building, do you think Thing would resort to punching a guy's head off to save his friends? Of course not. At least not intentionally. So, too, it can be said for psychics. Killing or any other action that strips the enemy of their humanity is just a line they aren't willing to cross most of the time.

[Swashbuckler]

I think most of the psychic characters are fairly boring for this exact reason. They should be able to always win, but always seem to just get knocked out early on in every battle.

[336Deadpool616]

So, killing the enemy is wrong but lobotimizing them isn't?

That's why psychics shows restraint. The heroes that they are, they do not feel it's ethical to use their powers to tamper with, shut down, or kill the minds of their enemies. Though tampering is done and killing itself has been done on rare occasion, they just don't do it because it shouldn't be done in their minds.

I fail to see why they can't be compared to super-strong characters. If an army of super-villains storms the Baxter Building, do you think Thing would resort to punching a guy's head off to save his friends? Of course not. At least not intentionally. So, too, it can be said for psychics. Killing or any other action that strips the enemy of their humanity is just a line they aren't willing to cross most of the time.

they're not willing to cross so your sayin jean grey let herself be killed by xorn because she didnt want to violate his humanity c mon now lets be real if anybody had psychic powers they'd just rendor the villian uncounsions thats not the same as taking thier head off

i know the psychics show restraint its obvious they do that but the only reason superhero's show restraint is because the person thier fighting is weaker than they are ben grimm will only show restraint if he knows you cant handle it

but if your a top list villain like magneto sinister apocalypse shadow king they're not going to show restraint because if they hold back thier finished

[DeniseXfrost]

It's not so much that I don't realize what they could do, but I know what they would do.

They have a lot of power, but like a super-strong character fighting someone not-invulnerable, they pull their punches and show restraint.
Right.

And the answer the original question, are psychics too powerful for comics? No, Grant morrison proved otherwise.

[Joe Acro]

they're not willing to cross so your sayin jean grey let herself be killed by xorn because she didnt want to violate his humanity c mon now lets be real if anybody had psychic powers they'd just rendor the villian uncounsions thats not the same as taking thier head offDidn't Jean Grey die by being blind-sided by Xorn? He got the first punch with the electro-magnetic aneurysm he caused.

Sure, though, rendering them unconscious seems reasonable, but the mind is a delicate thing. Can you be sure there's no damage if you mentally knock them out while they're in extreme rage?

i know the psychics show restraint its obvious they do that but the only reason superhero's show restraint is because the person thier fighting is weaker than they are ben grimm will only show restraint if he knows you cant handle it

but if your a top list villain like magneto sinister apocalypse shadow king they're not going to show restraint because if they hold back thier finished
They show restraint against not those who are weaker, but those who can't handle it. For example, The Blob would not be able to take a psychic blast to the head. Shadow King, however, would be able to.

Psychics going full-force against psychics makes sense. Just as super-strong characters end up brawling in the streets.

[Kage Kisaragi]

I think most of the psychic characters are fairly boring for this exact reason. They should be able to always win, but always seem to just get knocked out early on in every battle.

:biggrin: lol, Exactly, it should be a running gag whenever a major plot/cross-over isn't going down.

Storm: OMG! Xavier just fell down a flight of stairs. He'll be out for weeks.

Xavier:....

Beast: My oh stars and garters, Scott Jean just slipped into epileptic coma. I believe it was brought on after she accidentally substituted some of Emma's old cocaine packages for Sweet N Low.

Jean: ......

Prodigy: Uh Scott the Cuckoo's are kind of incapacitated. You see they invited me to join in on some kind of psychic group sex thing they said they picked up from Emma, You know anything about that? Well I didn't want to do it at first but then they pulled me in anyway. One thing lead to another and I started playing around with how this could work. Well long story short, I accidentally made 8 other personas of myself and you see it ended in a kind of psychic sex overload for the girls. :redface:

Angel: Scott I'm so sorry. Emma had me drive her over to one of the most expensive jewelers in San Fran. When we got there she went all diamond form and asked to have her self appraised. Then all of a sudden Juggernaut shouting "I'm the Juggernaut *****!" and then bashed Emma in the head with his fist reducing her to rubble. He then swept her up in her own purse and ran away. I was powerless to do anything.

Scott: .... Not to worry this means that were about to do some low grade super heroing. We should only panic when our psychics are alive and well because god knows that means we have a major crisis on our hands.

[HellFrost]

I think that if you're going to say that Telepths have too many different powers and should win every fight then you should look at characters like, Hulk, The Thing, Juggernaut, Captain Britain, Ms. Marvel, Colossus, Iron Man, etc...

Each of those characters, and a few others, have either top tier strength class in marvel, a whole assortment of different powers to be used at different times, or both. Each of them could easily take down most of the villains in the MU, except their own. Every characters rogue gallery is tailor made for that specific character. The X-Verse has the majority of telepaths for this reason.

Mr. Sinister, Exodus, The Shadow King , Mastermind(I&II), Lady Mastermind, Madelyne Pryor, etc... They each have pretty powerful TP and one of 4 characters (Emma, Betsy, Xavier, and Jean)on the X-Men are the only ones who can take them on. This leaves little room for the psychics to do otherwise. The X-Men's rogues are tailor made for them as well. Even Emma, during Gen X had her sisters who she couldn't effect or even sense psionically.

And the next point of topic: If Xavier could just shut off every villains mind off in Marvel, then why can't Superman just go around bashing every villains skull in at DC? The answer is one that's already been stated in previous posts. Ethics. Plain and simple. Super-Strength has many different levels of power the same exact way as telepathy does. They should both be scrutinized together if one is going to be scrutinized at all.

Saying that telepths shouldn't be so powerful or do so many different things, is like saying that charcters with super-strength shouldn't be so powerful. However, it's necessary in telling a story. It's necessary to tell the reader that, "this character can pick up a building or a mountain," and this character, "can shut off every mind in existence with just a thought," or "can alter reality so that a majority of people with super powers has been eradicated," because that's also when you get to the route of said characters personality and how dangerous the battle ahead of them is.

[Stormshadow]

I agree with the above post, but maybe its a great decision to not have very many of them. The overuse of telepathic/psychic powered characters should be avoided.

[HeckBoy]

I would like it if there were more mutant TP/TK "specialists." Just having them being able to do everything kinda makes their powers boring. I mean, ideally, it would be the characters' personalities/background that make them interesting and compelling, but I think a little variation in powers would also help. Plus, I'd like to see a character have tactile TK (like Superboy, although I suspect Molly from Runaways has some form of it) or extremely limited-range TK. Just something to "switch things up."

[Kage Kisaragi]

I think that if you're going to say that Telepths have too many different powers and should win every fight then you should look at characters like, Hulk, The Thing, Juggernaut, Captain Britain, Ms. Marvel, Colossus, Iron Man, etc...


It still falls back to my original argument that, unlike physical powers (energy projectors, brute strength, speed, ect ect) mental powers have far fewer resistances or road blockers. If Hulk were to get uppity you could simply toss another brick in his path like the Juggernaut. If Ms Marvel gets uppity you could call some other blaster/semi brute to stop her or you might not even need one. If Xavier gets uppity, other than Phoenix Jean, you're pretty much bone ****. There are lots of people who can take a hit from the Hulk, Colossus, Ms Marvel, Captain Britain, Iron Man, ect ect.. But there aren't to many people who can withstand a full on psychic assault from good old Chuck at his peek, or Emma or Jean for that matter if they really want to mess with your head. Yes their are people like Reed or Iron Man who supposedly have designed machines to help prevent that, but outside of Alien tech, and Magical / Godhood like uncertainty. I don't see nearly as many people being able to stop Chuck. I use Charles as an example because as far as Earth based Telepaths he is their champion, (supposedly) and with the feats he's pulled according to other posters who know more about those types of things. There is no way to compare the sheer berth of possibilities with Telepaths as oppose to generally 2-D powers of most physical characters.

[Kage Kisaragi]

I would like it if there were more mutant TP/TK "specialists." Just having them being able to do everything kinda makes their powers boring. I mean, ideally, it would be the characters' personalities/background that make them interesting and compelling, but I think a little variation in powers would also help. Plus, I'd like to see a character have tactile TK (like Superboy, although I suspect Molly from Runaways has some form of it) or extremely limited-range TK. Just something to "switch things up."

your suspensions on Molly are mine as well and I've thought about it a couple of times, especially since both of her parents were psionically empowered mutants.

[nikbackm]

It still falls back to my original argument that, unlike physical powers (energy projectors, brute strength, speed, ect ect) mental powers have far fewer resistances or road blockers. If Hulk were to get uppity you could simply toss another brick in his path like the Juggernaut. If Ms Marvel gets uppity you could call some other blaster/semi brute to stop her or you might not even need one. If Xavier gets uppity, other than Phoenix Jean, you're pretty much bone ****. There are lots of people who can take a hit from the Hulk, Colossus, Ms Marvel, Captain Britain, Iron Man, ect ect.. But there aren't to many people who can withstand a full on psychic assault from good old Chuck at his peek, or Emma or Jean for that matter if they really want to mess with your head. Yes their are people like Reed or Iron Man who supposedly have designed machines to help prevent that, but outside of Alien tech, and Magical / Godhood like uncertainty. I don't see nearly as many people being able to stop Chuck. I use Charles as an example because as far as Earth based Telepaths he is their champion, (supposedly) and with the feats he's pulled according to other posters who know more about those types of things. There is no way to compare the sheer berth of possibilities with Telepaths as oppose to generally 2-D powers of most physical characters.

You must have missed the fact that almost every significant character nowadays has some kind of psi-shield unless they are telepaths themselves. Mystique in MC, Shaw at the Endangered Species funeral where he met Charles, Val Cooper when she met with Scott and Emma one time etc. Heck, even many goons have psi-shields, for instance the gun-toting lackeys in the AXM Gifted arc or the more recent Hellfire cult in Uncanny.

These psi-shield are presumably quite easy to come by as so many have them. Finding something to protect you from an angry Hulk is a bit harder as many noticed in WWH. :smile:

[HeckBoy]

your suspensions on Molly are mine as well and I've thought about it a couple of times, especially since both of her parents were psionically empowered mutants.Exactly my reasoning as well. I've also kinda postulated that Molly's so strong b/c she literally doesn't know her own limits and like a little kid thinks she is invincible. And being psionically powered, it's almost like she has no upper boundaries (at least in comparison to a physically strong person). Sometimes, I believe that if Molly had developed her powers later in life, the random doubts and "grounding" of life experience would've significantly lowered her strength levels b/c she'd subconsciously think she wouldn't be able to lift something that big/heavy.

[336Deadpool616]

You must have missed the fact that almost every significant character nowadays has some kind of psi-shield unless they are telepaths themselves. Mystique in MC, Shaw at the Endangered Species funeral where he met Charles, Val Cooper when she met with Scott and Emma one time etc. Heck, even many goons have psi-shields, for instance the gun-toting lackeys in the AXM Gifted arc or the more recent Hellfire cult in Uncanny.

These psi-shield are presumably quite easy to come by as so many have them. Finding something to protect you from an angry Hulk is a bit harder as many noticed in WWH. :smile:

if everybody has psychic shields whats the point of having a psychic characters if the majority did have them then the psychics are useless

also i dont think you can compare physical with mental cuz mental will always win

[Kage Kisaragi]

Originally Posted by nikbackm View Post
You must have missed the fact that almost every significant character nowadays has some kind of psi-shield unless they are telepaths themselves. Mystique in MC, Shaw at the Endangered Species funeral where he met Charles, Val Cooper when she met with Scott and Emma one time etc. Heck, even many goons have psi-shields, for instance the gun-toting lackeys in the AXM Gifted arc or the more recent Hellfire cult in Uncanny.

These psi-shield are presumably quite easy to come by as so many have them. Finding something to protect you from an angry Hulk is a bit harder as many noticed in WWH.

Thats only because they are pushing for it not to be a big deal. There is no way you develop Psi Shields (and I mentioned this in my original post) because you meditated at the foot of Yoda for 2 months and now are strong enough to resist Xavier at his peek or while enraged. Chuck has studied the mind since he practically got his powers. Hell if you go by what Morrison wrote in New X-Men, Chuck, even only half aware of himself was able to to lash out enough that he killed his twin sister and knocked his mother for a loop, all this while a fetus. Now please tell, why should any conscious reader believe that Iron Man, or even Sebastian Shaw could develop Psi Shields strong enough to resist the king of the Psychics? Even Emma was saying that getting around psi barriers or blockers were just a matter of time in most cases. Emma's not even the best at it, its my opinion that psi blockers are little more than a formality that writers try to use so as to write why Charles, Emma or Jean just don't up and save the day every day. There is no way a guy who can telepathically contact his girlfriend on the other side of the known universe within a instant. Can't get around some feeble Stark Tech, or Electra's Hyu Mo Guway, Guway chant.:tongue:

Again however these stories are written with a wide berth of disbelief already assumed on the part of the reader. So we shouldn't really question it.

[nikbackm]

Thats only because they are pushing for it not to be a big deal. There is no way you develop Psi Shields (and I mentioned this in my original post) because you meditated at the foot of Yoda for 2 months and now are strong enough to resist Xavier at his peek or while enraged. Chuck has studied the mind since he practically got his powers, hell if you go by what Morrison wrote in New X-Men, Chuck even only half aware of himself was able to to lash out enough that he killed his twin sister and knocked his mother for a loop.. all this while a fetus. Now please tell, why should any conscious reader believe that Iron Man, or even Sebastion Shaw could develop Psi Shields strong enough to resist the king of the Psychics? Even Emma was saying that getting around psi barriers or blockers were just a matter of time. Emma's not even at the best at it, its my opinion that psi blockers are little more than a formality that writers try to use so as to write why Charles, Emma or Jean just don't up and save the day every day. There is no way a guy who can telepathically contact his girlfriend on the other side of the known universe within a instant that he wants a date and to come pick him up now. Can't get around some feeble Stark Tech, or Electra's Hyu Mo Guway, Guway chant.:tongue:

Again however these stories are written with a wide berth of disbelief already assumed on the part of the reader. So we shouldn't really question it.

If we assume telepathy works somewhat within the scientific realm and is not entirely magical (which it of course is if you really try to explain it with real work science :tongue:) then it should work via some electromagnetic signal between the brain of the telepath and the target. Blocking or interfering with this signal with a technical gadget should not be so hard. Likewise tracking it should be possible.

Some telepaths (only Emma so far?) seems to be able to work around these kind of gadgets in some circumstances, but in principle they should be fool-proof if you boost up the jam signal hard enough.

But, as you said, a heavy dose of suspense of disbelief must be applied in any case.

[ExodusCloak]

I think it's great that the telepaths are a big part of the X-Universe unlike the Avenger Universe.

Anyway the X-Villians are tailor made, and most of the time telepaths don't go on field trips. Emma and Xavier are stay at home people for the most part.

And there are plenty of other X-characters who could solo teams, the telepaths should be the least of the X-books worries since plot devices are easily made up to block it.

It's the other mutants who's powers aren't easily limited that writers need to watch out for.

[marvell2100]

I think that psychics power portrayals have been inconsistant throughout Marvel's history. One minute they can control just about evryone one the planet and the next they can barely shut out a single thought. I think that anytime a psychic tries to use their power in some sort of massive way, it should have strong adverse effect on them physically and mentally. So that if they do use their power to say, control 1-75 people(random numbers) they get a headache and nosebleed. 75-150people, severe migraines and heart murmurs. Anything over 150 and they risk anerysms and heart failure. 250 and above is almost certain death

[Rivka]

During Morrison 2000 run on New X-Men Emma took out an entire group of news casters from various papers and networks as well as protesters. Jean mentioned that shed have to remove the last five minutes from the same group of reporters memory after a shouting match between Emma and some lady. While not exactly villains, I can't see why Emma or Jean or any other telepath of the first order couldn't simple take out a group of villains who don't consist of powerful telepaths or have hive minds. I mean in all honestly I don't see Spidermans rogue gallery putting up much of a fight against an bloodlusted Emma or Jean. Heck even if they weren't bloodlusted.

To most degrees it would have been better if Marvel broke down psionics into different disciplines and restraint writers from going beyond those disciplines. Telepathy is one discipline within and of itself and can be very diverse, but telekinesis would have fallen under Psychokinesis which also has various uses and can even be broken down into sub disciplines based on elements like fire, ice, electricity, sonic, ect ect ect.. the potential is still endless but is more focused and prevents Phoenix type characters who apparently do anything and everything and quickly become killing fodder because no one wants to write god characters unless they are named Thor.

Back to telepathy since I believe thats what the OP is leaning towards in his opening statement. Yes I do believe telepaths are way to powerful in the marvel universe, specifically on marvel earth since the majority of people there don't have knowledge of telepathy, how to counter it, or any innate resistance to it. A telepath's mind is on of at least in marvel terms so advanced its ridiculous to believe that a normal person train or focus to the point they can resist 2nd or 1st order telepaths. It would be like a normal man training to become strong enough to resist a punch from the hulk, or taking a thor enhanced lightning bolt and trying to just shrug it off like it didn't happen. Using technology again isn't all that logical an answer as its silly to see organizations produce machines that counter act or give telepathic powers but yet the base human mind can still out preform (in terms of memory and complexity) any computer. So you have a technological contraption best say Emma or god forbid Xavier at his peek when it comes to telepathic powers is just poor writing.

A few reasons why Telepaths are so much more deadly than other power types.

Do not require line of sight. Xavier could kill half the planet in the span of a few seconds without ever living his house. With Cerebra theoretically the whole world save for the people who might have the power to resist it, and again with Cerebra I think that would be maybe 1 or 2 people (This does not include mythical gods or other creatures who are entirely magical since they may or may not be bound by similar constraints when it comes to how the mind works.)

Almost untraceable, the local, state and possibly most of the federal government branches don't have access to any technology or individuals who could possibly figure out who killed who using some kind of telepathic attack.

Not a whole lot of opposition. Where energy blasting powers and super strength will normally come up against targets who can resist them fairly often, mental attacks rarely do.

Telepathy allows for victories without necessarily having violent battles. The fights could span a few seconds or hours since it is all just mental anyway.

Wow, good post!

And your follow-up posts as well.

I think, as others have said, it also is a matter of how the psychic powers are written, and how they are used in a story. The X-Men books are so inconsistent. Emma Frost's recent power-upgrade for no good reason is a good example.

I recall in Earth-X, I think it was, the alternate universe series published about 10 years ago, where Xavier did fully exercise his powers and ended up taking over the earth.

I agree with you, that Marvel needs to refine their psychic or psionic characters, and categorize them more accurately. And then editors should restrict using them in plots only so far as their powers function, rather than as deus ex machinas. Or worse, portrayed as suddenly dimwitted and dense as to how to use their powers when these psionic powers could easily end the story in two pages.

The treatment of Jean Grey in the late 1990s and early 2000s is a case in point, too. How Joe Kelly and Steve Seagle wanted to write her as the Phoenix, and amp her powers, and instead we got a Jean as house-frau and nursemaid to Scott. Or Morrison, showing her playing with silverware when he was making her into the Phoenix again. When it served his purpose, he makes her all-powerful and has HER kill herself off, and then erase an entire time-line.

[Rivka]

I think that psychics power portrayals have been inconsistant throughout Marvel's history. One minute they can control just about evryone one the planet and the next they can barely shut out a single thought. I think that anytime a psychic tries to use their power in some sort of massive way, it should have strong adverse effect on them physically and mentally. So that if they do use their power to say, control 1-75 people(random numbers) they get a headache and nosebleed. 75-150people, severe migraines and heart murmurs. Anything over 150 and they risk anerysms and heart failure. 250 and above is almost certain death

Good post, too!

I agree.

[Henry T.]

Psychics can be too powerful at times. But like others have said they are often portrayed inconsistently and are not always at high levels of power.

During Soldier X, didn't Cable "think" people out of existence. He was basically atomizing them. Didn't he also resurrect the newly dead and tk a city (Providence) out of the ocean.

Nate Grey could also resurrect/recreate the dead as he did this with Maddie. I think he also had the ability to heal people and regrow their limbs. He could also travel the multiverse and effectively phase with his telekinesis by moving the molecules of objects around himself.

Shola could also "phase" with his tk in this way.

Rachel Grey was able to create a black hole singularity with her telekinesis and rearrange her dna to become a dinosaur. She also levitated Providence. In the past she has been in telekinetic battles that included throwing around solar flares, moons, and planets. Rachel has been able to resurrect after death at times.

Madelyne Pryor could teleport with her telekinesis.

During the 90s Jean Grey was shown able to "shut down" someones mind instantly killing them. She had to do this to Meme to save his innocent victims. In X-Men Unlimited 13 she was shown able to fly through hyperspace and into a white star with her telekinesis.

In New X-Men Jean could lift 50 tons of debris with her tk and steer 75 people with her mind. As Phoenix she has been shown able to resurrect herself and others and manipulate and transmute matter. As White Phoenix she could manipulate space and time with her tk.

Psylocke has been able to make herself invisible with her tk by bending light.

But they don't stay at these levels. Cable did not stay all powerful for long. Nate Grey's power would sometimes burn out. Rachel would be amazingly powerful one minute and then trip and fall down the stairs or get punched out by a human the next. Sometimes Jean can fly through space and sometimes she can't. Sometimes she can resurrect herself instantly and sometimes she can't. In Uncanny 281 she mind blasted several minds at once but a few issues later they try to say that she can only attack one mind at a time.

[336Deadpool616]

Psychics can be too powerful at times. But like others have said they are often portrayed inconsistently and are not always at high levels of power.

During Soldier X, didn't Cable "think" people out of existence. He was basically atomizing them. Didn't he also resurrect the newly dead and tk a city (Providence) out of the ocean.

Nate Grey could also resurrect/recreate the dead as he did this with Maddie. I think he also had the ability to heal people and regrow their limbs. He could also travel the multiverse and effectively phase with his telekinesis by moving the molecules of objects around himself.

Shola could also "phase" with his tk in this way.



Rachel Grey was able to create a black hole singularity with her telekinesis and rearrange her dna to become a dinosaur. She also levitated Providence. In the past she has been in telekinetic battles that included throwing around solar flares, moons, and planets. Rachel has been able to resurrect after death at times.

Madelyne Pryor could teleport with her telekinesis.

During the 90s Jean Grey was shown able to "shut down" someones mind instantly killing them. She had to do this to Meme to save his innocent victims. In X-Men Unlimited 13 she was shown able to fly through hyperspace and into a white star with her telekinesis.

In New X-Men Jean could lift 50 tons of debris with her tk and steer 75 people with her mind. As Phoenix she has been shown able to resurrect herself and others and manipulate and transmute matter. As White Phoenix she could manipulate space and time with her tk.

Psylocke has been able to make herself invisible with her tk by bending light.

But they don't stay at these levels. Cable did not stay all powerful for long. Nate Grey's power would sometimes burn out. Rachel would be amazingly powerful one minute and then trip and fall down the stairs or get punched out by a human the next. Sometimes Jean can fly through space and sometimes she can't. Sometimes she can resurrect herself instantly and sometimes she can't. In Uncanny 281 she mind blasted several minds at once but a few issues later they try to say that she can only attack one mind at a time.

well thats what im talking about its the writers they make the psychics so powerful then they dont know what to do with them this is the main reason why ,ost of them are not in the books

i think they should decrease thier powers especaily emma frost it makes no sense how they boost her powers up

[DeniseXfrost]

i think they should decrease thier powers especaily emma frost it makes no sense how they boost her powers up
You keep saying that? But do you even read some of earlier appearances?

[336Deadpool616]

You keep saying that? But do you even read some of earlier appearances?

yes i have and i thought the same thing when they created them
so what you think emma frost doesn't need to be depowered she now can give mutants thier power back and also she has her second mutation which was stupid to give her

she doesn't just have to be a grade A psychic she has to be invulnable

[DeniseXfrost]

yes i have and i thought the same thing when they created them
so what you think emma frost doesn't need to be depowered she now can give mutants thier power back and also she has her second mutation which was stupid to give her

she doesn't just have to be a grade A psychic she has to be invulnable
I don't understand what you're trying to say but my point is they didn't boost her power, she's always been a powerful psychic.

[336Deadpool616]

I don't understand what you're trying to say but my point is they didn't boost her power, she's always been a powerful psychic.

she's never been this powerful thats all im saying

[DeniseXfrost]

she's never been this powerful thats all im saying
Yes she has. Cloacking the entire generationX in middle of the crowd was the first thing that popped in my mind right now.

[HellFrost]

i think they should decrease thier powers especaily emma frost it makes no sense how they boost her powers up
Except she's always been this powerful.
yes i have and i thought the same thing when they created them
so what you think emma frost doesn't need to be depowered she now can give mutants thier power back and also she has her second mutation which was stupid to give her

she doesn't just have to be a grade A psychic she has to be invulnable
What? Are you referring to when she reactivated Icemans powers since he wasn't really depowered. Get oyur facts straight.
she's never been this powerful thats all im saying
Trust me, you do NOT want to get into this debate with a number of her biggest fans who have read, pretty much every appearance and possibly even mention of her character. She has always been considered a top tier telepath. She's been called a telepath of the highest order. She's been able to do things and sense things that other telepaths have yet to be able to do. Don't say things you know nothing about. You won't win.

[DeniseXfrost]

She's been able to do things and sense things that other telepaths have yet to be able to do.
true, especially when it comes to mechanic things and body's function. Plus unlike other psychics, she's sneaky and isn't afraid to fight dirty.

[336Deadpool616]

Except she's always been this powerful.

What? Are you referring to when she reactivated Icemans powers since he wasn't really depowered. Get oyur facts straight.

Trust me, you do NOT want to get into this debate with a number of her biggest fans who have read, pretty much every appearance and possibly even mention of her character. She has always been considered a top tier telepath. She's been called a telepath of the highest order. She's been able to do things and sense things that other telepaths have yet to be able to do. Don't say things you know nothing about. You won't win.

ok ok i cant argue with emma frost super fans the argument was do you think she's too powerful and since she's sneaky and not afraid to fight dirty that means she would'nt hold back like the other one's

[DeniseXfrost]

ok ok i cant argue with emma frost super fans the argument was do you think she's too powerful and since she's sneaky and not afraid to fight dirty that means she would'nt hold back like the other one's
Her power works fine because while her mind is superstrong, her body isn't. When she senses a physical harm she would switch to diamond form (defense mechanism) which she can't access her telepathy.

[lockerogue]

Emma has always been a powerful psychic there's no doubt about that. But recently her abilities have been out of control and need to be settled.

[336Deadpool616]

Emma has always been a powerful psychic there's no doubt about that. But recently her abilities have been out of control and need to be settled.

thats what i been sayin i think writers need to tone it down a little when it comes to psychics really emma i think her second mutation is pointless

[lockerogue]

Really its just that the writers are so inconsistent with her powers. They just need to sit down and balance it out.

[DeniseXfrost]

thats what i been sayin i think writers need to tone it down a little when it comes to psychics really emma i think her second mutation is pointless
No, that's not you've been saying.

Having a diamond skin is pointless? Not only it differentiates her from other psychics, it also provides a loop hole for writers to work around her seeing she's a very active powerful psychic. Like I just posted, if she's turing into her diamond form she won't be able to access her telepathy. Now all the writer needs to do is provide a scenerio where she needs to change form. Plus I also like the metaphor of that power as well.
Really its just that the writers are so inconsistent with her powers. They just need to sit down and balance it out.
Not just Emma, every psychic's power is inconsistent.

[lockerogue]

Not just Emma, every psychic's power is inconsistent.

This is true. Except for Karma lesbians are very strong.

[nikbackm]

I think that psychics power portrayals have been inconsistant throughout Marvel's history. One minute they can control just about evryone one the planet and the next they can barely shut out a single thought.

Almost every single super power out there has been portrayed inconsistently. When there's a choice between the plot and using a power consistently then the plot wins every time.

[Kage Kisaragi]

I find interesting in regards to Emma is that in recent stories Emma has used her telepathic powers to broadcast across the entire planet without the help of Cerebra. In one other recent story, (I forget the details.) Scott I believe asked Emma a question and she said something about reading the psychic static from the Ether to gain the information he needed it.

yeah some of these have been kind of well, confusing to say the least.

[DeniseXfrost]

In one other recent story, (I forget the details.) Scott I believed asked Emma a question and she said something about reading the psychic static?
Secret invasion x-men 2? .....I believe she had to blend into the skrull's though frequency so the 'though-wall' couldn't detect her, which she seemed to fail and in a dying state right now.

[nikbackm]

Somethings that I find interesting in regards to Emma. In recent stories Emma has used her telepathic powers to broadcast across the entire planet without the help of Cerebra. In one other recent story, (I forget the details.) Scott I believed asked Emma a question and she said something about reading the psychic static?

yeah some of these have been kind of well, confusing to say the least.

Usually Cerebra is used to locate other mutants by picking up on their psychic signatures. Use of Cerebra here is pretty much required since the signatures quickly get hard to pick up over larger distances.

Simply broadcasting a signal (without listening for a reply) on the other hand should be much easier. You could compare it with how far you can shout and be heard and from how far you can hear someone whispering.

[Tazirai]

thank you kage kisaragi you seem to be the only person so far to realize what psychics are capable of thiers no need for an confrontation with the villian or anything if your that powerful you can hit them without them even realizing it
the whole argument of it takes alot of concentration and practice is true but c'mon xavier jean grey emma frost had these powers for years they dont anymore training if you ask me

i just think that the writers made all of the psychics too powerful when it should be just xavier and jean grey

Gotta love those physical weaknesses said telepaths seem to have though. They may be powerful but their minds can be taken unawares also. They have higher resistance, but can still be taken over. Psylocke (British Body), Xavier, Emma, and Sage, have all had their minds dominated.

Also one thing they seem to have in common even the fighting telepaths. They are pretty weak in fight. Psylocke needed Armor to survive close combat. Xavier stayed home mainly, or attacked from long range. Sage used guns, Emma has her diamond form.
So they seem a little more balanced, they can dish it, but can't take it.

[336Deadpool616]

No, that's not you've been saying.

Having a diamond skin is pointless? Not only it differentiates her from other psychics, it also provides a loop hole for writers to work around her seeing she's a very active powerful psychic. Like I just posted, if she's turing into her diamond form she won't be able to access her telepathy. Now all the writer needs to do is provide a scenerio where she needs to change form. Plus I also like the metaphor of that power as well.

Not just Emma, every psychic's power is inconsistent.

im just saying all psychics not just emma are the most powerful people in marvel
if you can do half the things emma frost can do your still a one of the strongest the only thing that can beat a psychic is another psychic

i just dont think they should of givin emma another power when she strong enough already and to say diamond skin is for defense is crazy because not only does it give her durability it gives her super strength that means she can beat you mentally and physicaly thats what i mean by she's too powerful

and plus she has tk you ever heard of a tk shield thats all the defense she needs
giving her diamond skin was stupid thats like giving colossus the ability to read minds

psychic powers and super strength and durability or complete opposites of each other and the weakness of each other they should never be combined psychics are supposed to be fragile against any physical attacks and super strength are supposed to be fragile against mental attacks

but since emma frost possesses but mental and physical powers she is with no doubt the most powerful superhero in marvel right now

[Kage Kisaragi]

Secret invasion x-men 2? .....I believe she had to blend into the skrull's though frequency so the 'though-wall' couldn't detect her, which she seemed to fail and in a dying state right now.

it was Uncanny 486 or something, she basically scanned the Ether (her own words) and gleamed information about the subject from the residual psychic static of the cosmos. In other words. Emma can learn the answer to anything even without a expert in the subject being anywhere on Earth. (maybe it is more limited but thats not the impression I got.)

[Saturius]

I hope that incident is never mentioned again. I can't believe they had Emma literally pulling information out of thin air :rolleyes: I do think they need to tone down some of her recent feats cause some of them are bordering on ridiculous.

[Kage Kisaragi]

Really I find it ironic how limited they play off Telepathy in some cases. With all the things that can be done with Telepathy, I find it hard to believe any non tech/magic empowered person could ever really find Chuck. I mean, the guy who can mimic most every mutant power known to man. He could create 100's of Chucks and have them walking the globe interacting with people as if it was a normal everyday thing. Of course it's all an illusion induced by Chuck using his powers but if he can directly influence your brain then it might as well be real. In this same sense, Chuck could have the striking power of Hulk if he wanted to, because all it would require is for him to tell your mind is that his walking projected form just punched you with the strength of the Hulk (let's say in access of 100 tons.) and you're nervous system would react causing your body to jerk about in away that could would probably snap your neck or seriously injure yourself let alone your brain functions stopping from shock.

I'm having fun with this, let's keep going.

The X-Men are aboard the Blackbird, they are flying to some destination thinking they are going to fight Magneto. Chuck is filling rather dickish today can decides to kill his original 5. As the team crosses a mountain range, Scott reads the instruments and begins to maneuver however what Scott is reading on the instruments is wrong, it's old Chucky playing around with Scott's head changing what he sees (and for that matter everyone sees).. Scott crashes into the mountain side while thinking he was actually climbing upward to avoid it.

In Ultimate X-Men, Quicksilver once said he could simply run over to the mansion and snap Charles neck for his father, Magneto berates him and says, Charles would sense your intent before you even crossed the Atlantic and turn your mind off. Quicksilver in the Ultimate Universe is faster than he normally was in the 616 universe.

[nikbackm]

I hope that incident is never mentioned again. I can't believe they had Emma literally pulling information out of thin air :rolleyes: I do think they need to tone down some of her recent feats cause some of them are bordering on ridiculous.

Please be careful with the word "ridiculous" when discussing superhero comics. :wink:

[336Deadpool616]

Really I find it ironic how limited they play off Telepathy in some cases. With all the things that can be done with Telepathy, I find it hard to believe any non tech/magic empowered person could ever really find Chuck. I mean, the guy who can mimic most every mutant power known to man. He could create 100's of Chucks and have them walking the globe interacting with people as if it was a normal everyday thing. Of course it's all an illusion induced by Chuck using his powers but if he can directly influence your brain then it might as well be real. In this same sense, Chuck could have the striking power of Hulk if he wanted to, because all it would require is for him to tell your mind is that his walking projected form just punched you with the strength of the Hulk (let's say in access of 100 tons.) and you're nervous system would react causing your body to jerk about in away that could would probably snap your neck or seriously injure yourself let alone your brain functions stopping from shock.

I'm having fun with this, let's keep going.

The X-Men are aboard the Blackbird, they are flying to some destination thinking they are going to fight Magneto. Chuck is filling rather dickish today can decides to kill his original 5. As the team crosses a mountain range, Scott reads the instruments and begins to maneuver however what Scott is reading on the instruments is wrong, it's old Chucky playing around with Scott's head changing what he sees (and for that matter everyone sees).. Scott crashes into the mountain side while thinking he was actually climbing upward to avoid it.

In Ultimate X-Men, Quicksilver once said he could simply run over to the mansion and snap Charles neck for his father, Magneto berates him and says, Charles would sense your intent before you even crossed the Atlantic and turn your mind off. Quicksilver in the Ultimate Universe is faster than he normally was in the 616 universe.

i always knew charles was powerful but since you put it that way it just prove how terrifying psychics can be. just imagine this charles could torture you mentally for a few seconds but to your mind and body it feels like years. kinda like how itachi did kakashi in naruto

[Rivka]

No, that's not you've been saying.

I think that's what he was trying to say.

And believe me, I'm no expert on Emma Frost, and have only read about her in the course of the usual reading of my comics (like GENERATION X). I do not dispute what the Emma experts have to say.

But the point I was making, and I think some others were making, is her powers have been portrayed not only inconsistently, but too conveniently for the plot of a particular story.

These telepaths can be said to do ANYTHING, but at least the writers of the stories in the comics should go by some kind of guide, at least the HANDBOOK, for one.

Also, the powers of these various psionics should be portrayed as refined and descreet. What we usually see is some generic "powerful telepath" who can do what all other telepaths can do. Now, unless this is BABYLON 5 and there is a whole sub-species of telepaths evolving, like Marvel seems to be saying about "feral" mutants, or Chuck Austen was saying about "angel" and "devil" mutants (I don't accept that one, actually), it better serves the readers and the stories, if each mutant telepath, or super human non-mutant telepath or psionic, had a discreet set of powers.

Of course there will be overlap.

Here's what the latest hardover handbooks says about Emma's powers:

"Emma Frost has vast psionic powers. She can read minds and project her thoughts into the minds of others within a roughly 20-mile radius...."

This is what I'm talking about. Xavier is an omnipath. He is the most powerful psionic talent on the planet, except for the Phoenix in full-bloom. Xavier can control minds across the planet. Xavier can broadcast messages to mutants and anyone across thousands of miles. Emma shouldn't be able to. Yet, we see her do it without Cerebra, in UNCANNY #500.

We will see what the next LEGACY issues shows about Emma's astral plane talents. Here's what the HANDBOOK says:

"Emma can project her astral form, the sheath of her life essence, onto abstract dimensions congruent to our own known as astral planes. There, she can use her powers to create ectoplasmic objects, however, she cannot engage in long-range astral projection on the earthly plane."

Xavier can do the long-range astral projection thing. I therefore do NOT expect to see Emma Frost able to do this any time soon. Also, Xavier is much more practiced and highly skilled at fighting on the Astral Plane. He should be able to easily defeat a psychic attack from Emma Frost.

Having a diamond skin is pointless? Not only it differentiates her from other psychics, it also provides a loop hole for writers to work around her seeing she's a very active powerful psychic. Like I just posted, if she's turing into her diamond form she won't be able to access her telepathy. Now all the writer needs to do is provide a scenerio where she needs to change form. Plus I also like the metaphor of that power as well.

The diamond skin power is now much more acceptable since we've been given a reasonable explanation as to how she got the power. I couldn't accept Morrison's contention that of all 16 million mutants ONLY Emma Frost just happened to develop a "secondary mutation" and survived the massacre. And this after Morrison had written Beast saying "secondary mutations" are increasing around the world.

In any case, I do agree with you, the diamond skin secondary power makes Frost far more interesting as a character. And we do not see writers utilizing it enough, or in apt or interesting ways.

Not just Emma, every psychic's power is inconsistent.

This is very true, and all the mutants' powers have been written inconsistently over the years.

Let's talk about Dani Moonstar, for example, who is a particular kind of psionic talent.

But what I was trying to say, is YES Emma Frost is powerful, and was shown to be powerful from her first appearance, but her powers have a range, and parameters. I have a problem with writers who (1) have been upgrading the parameters of her powers to suit a plot, (2) have not been using the full range of her talents and instead, (3) have been writing her as a substitute Xavier or Jean, just copying what Xavier or Jean would do.

[Mikl C]

Best use of telepath in a team goes to pre-outback/ outback era Psylocke. She was sneaky and could PSYCHOBLAST ya, but often as not she just got punched in the head!

[marvell2100]

I think it was Kage Kisaragi, along with a few others if I'm not mistaken, who brought up the point earlier about telepaths just simply shutting down the minds of any enemies that the X-Men face. That's just too powerful a weapon not to use. If you could prevent needless fighting and loss of lives, why not do it? Why create an X-Force when you could have your telepath do the work without all the bloodshed? That's the problem you have when you create telepaths with seemingly limitless power. Then you get the telepaths debate of invading peoples' mind and whether it's right or wrong. If you're going by the new policy(?) that Cyclops has adopted then there is no wrong when it comes to defending mutantkind. Actually the use of telepaths should prevent attacks on mutants because they should be able to sense hostile thoughts towards mutants.

I remember bringing this up in the discussion on UXM #501 and why wasn't Emma able to sense the attack on Pixie and someone responded to the effect that she didn't share a link with Pixie. I thought to my self that wasn't a good enough reason because Emma is a high order telepath and she should have been able to sense another mutant in pain especially within a 10-20 mile radius.

Now before you Emma Frost fans jump all over me, I'm not blaming Emma. I blame the writers because they have established a precedent with Emma and other telepaths as well which they constantly renege off and on with. Telepaths should have certain limitations, which I lined out in an earlier post, not to hate on, depower or minimalize their abilities but instead to make their powers and use of their powers more credible and manageable on a consistant basis.

[maigen]

What I don't like is that it so rarely causes strain on the telepath to do such feats.

Let them be as powerful as they will but make it have an impact on their bodies.

To be able to use any type of mutant power would require an amazing amount of energy. One would need to consume enormous amounts of calories and get a decent amount of sleep. The more powerful one is the more often they would need to "refuel" before weakening significantly.

[ExodusCloak]

I think that's what he was trying to say.

And believe me, I'm no expert on Emma Frost, and have only read about her in the course of the usual reading of my comics (like GENERATION X). I do not dispute what the Emma experts have to say.

But the point I was making, and I think some others were making, is her powers have been portrayed not only inconsistently, but too conveniently for the plot of a particular story.

These telepaths can be said to do ANYTHING, but at least the writers of the stories in the comics should go by some kind of guide, at least the HANDBOOK, for one.

Also, the powers of these various psionics should be portrayed as refined and descreet. What we usually see is some generic "powerful telepath" who can do what all other telepaths can do. Now, unless this is BABYLON 5 and there is a whole sub-species of telepaths evolving, like Marvel seems to be saying about "feral" mutants, or Chuck Austen was saying about "angel" and "devil" mutants (I don't accept that one, actually), it better serves the readers and the stories, if each mutant telepath, or super human non-mutant telepath or psionic, had a discreet set of powers.

Of course there will be overlap.

Here's what the latest hardover handbooks says about Emma's powers:

"Emma Frost has vast psionic powers. She can read minds and project her thoughts into the minds of others within a roughly 20-mile radius...."

This is what I'm talking about. Xavier is an omnipath. He is the most powerful psionic talent on the planet, except for the Phoenix in full-bloom. Xavier can control minds across the planet. Xavier can broadcast messages to mutants and anyone across thousands of miles. Emma shouldn't be able to. Yet, we see her do it without Cerebra, in UNCANNY #500.

We will see what the next LEGACY issues shows about Emma's astral plane talents. Here's what the HANDBOOK says:

"Emma can project her astral form, the sheath of her life essence, onto abstract dimensions congruent to our own known as astral planes. There, she can use her powers to create ectoplasmic objects, however, she cannot engage in long-range astral projection on the earthly plane."

Xavier can do the long-range astral projection thing. I therefore do NOT expect to see Emma Frost able to do this any time soon. Also, Xavier is much more practiced and highly skilled at fighting on the Astral Plane. He should be able to easily defeat a psychic attack from Emma Frost.

Umm did you even bother to look at Xavier's handbook entry before formulating your post and such conclusions?

http://www.picamatic.com/view/1023092_Page027/

Yep, yep...HANDBOOKS are crap.

And since you read Gen X you'd know that she can astral project across the Atlantic Ocean from her office and mind rape Nate Grey while conversing with her sister Adrienne.

[nikbackm]

Umm did you even bother to look at Xavier's handbook entry before formulating your post and such conclusions?

http://www.picamatic.com/view/1023092_Page027/

Yep, yep...HANDBOOKS are crap.

And since you read Gen X you'd know that she can astral project across the Atlantic Ocean from her office and mind rape Nate Grey while conversing with her sister Adrienne.

Yes, Xavier is not an omnipath. Gamesmaster from the Upstarts OTOH (anyone remember him?) is.

From the recent handbook:

"He is constantly aware of every being on the planet and has been said to be able to influence the entire population of earth simultaneously. He has not demonstrated this ability yet, but did manipulate the population of an entire town once".

[336Deadpool616]

I think it was Kage Kisaragi, along with a few others if I'm not mistaken, who brought up the point earlier about telepaths just simply shutting down the minds of any enemies that the X-Men face. That's just too powerful a weapon not to use. If you could prevent needless fighting and loss of lives, why not do it? Why create an X-Force when you could have your telepath do the work without all the bloodshed? That's the problem you have when you create telepaths with seemingly limitless power. Then you get the telepaths debate of invading peoples' mind and whether it's right or wrong. If you're going by the new policy(?) that Cyclops has adopted then there is no wrong when it comes to defending mutantkind. Actually the use of telepaths should prevent attacks on mutants because they should be able to sense hostile thoughts towards mutants.

I remember bringing this up in the discussion on UXM #501 and why wasn't Emma able to sense the attack on Pixie and someone responded to the effect that she didn't share a link with Pixie. I thought to my self that wasn't a good enough reason because Emma is a high order telepath and she should have been able to sense another mutant in pain especially within a 10-20 mile radius.

Now before you Emma Frost fans jump all over me, I'm not blaming Emma. I blame the writers because they have established a precedent with Emma and other telepaths as well which they constantly renege off and on with. Telepaths should have certain limitations, which I lined out in an earlier post, not to hate on, depower or minimalize their abilities but instead to make their powers and use of their powers more credible and manageable on a consistant basis.

and believe me im not tryna turn this into a emma hate thread. the only reason i used her is because she is the only one left in the spotlight right now

emma frost was always a powerful psychic but she wasn't on xavier or phoenix level but above rachel grey and psylocke . it seems ever sense jean grey died and xavier being occupied she grown stronger and now seems to be on xavier level which i dont think is possible because he's got more experience.

rachel grey is someone else i have a problem with. according to wiki she has the power to send a person's present mind to thier past or future selves or to an ancestor. i think she's the only psychic capable of doing that but thats still a lil to powerful for me

[Mikl C]

Gamesmaster was so lame!

[Rivka]

Gamesmaster was so lame!

And a perfect example of everything we've been talking about.

[ExodusCloak]

and believe me im not tryna turn this into a emma hate thread. the only reason i used her is because she is the only one left in the spotlight right now

emma frost was always a powerful psychic but she wasn't on xavier or phoenix level but above rachel grey and psylocke . it seems ever sense jean grey died and xavier being occupied she grown stronger and now seems to be on xavier level which i dont think is possible because he's got more experience.

http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newmutants01513lj2.jpg

[Rivka]

Umm did you even bother to look at Xavier's handbook entry before formulating your post and such conclusions?

http://www.picamatic.com/view/1023092_Page027/

Yep, yep...HANDBOOKS are crap.

And since you read Gen X you'd know that she can astral project across the Atlantic Ocean from her office and mind rape Nate Grey while conversing with her sister Adrienne.

I still don't understand your point. The HANDBOOK entry doesn't contradict anything I said about Xavier. And it was implied in the comics that he is an omnipath, and stated as fact that he had to shut down parts of his powers and his mind to save his sanity.

We'll see what the hardcover updated entry for Xavier says, when it comes out.

In any case, if you're talking about GEN X #50, for one thing, Emma Frost established a mind-link with Nate, who had lost his powers. That is all. Nate saw an image of the Dark Beast in her mind, when she established the psi-link. Nate is over Ireland when the psi-link is established. Perfectly within the White Queen's power range. Nate then comes back to Massachusetts to confront Emma in X-MEN #50. I was a huge fan of Nate Grey, so I remember this. Nate battles Frost, and even without his telepathic powers, they battle to a stand-off. But they stop when Gaia comes running and begs them to stop, to save the others. Nate makes a deal with Emma, to help her rescue her students, and she will share with him what she knows about Dark Beast.

There was no astral plane involved.

In any case, that's the point I was making. Emma Frost should not be able to astral project herself long-range. Those are the parameters of her powers. It isn't a good thing, and inconsistent, to show her doing what Xavier should only be able to do. I don't want to turn this thread into an Emma Frost thread, because it's not just about her. It's about how psionic powered mutants are portrayed, and she has been portrayed inconsistently, and there should be some guide.

And I don't think the HANDBOOKS are "crap" at all. The are incredibly good considering the vast amount of continuity that the writers have to deal with. In fact, it's Marvel writers that should pay attention to the HANDBOOKS, or some kind of guide, when creating plots and stories, in order to keep within certain guidelines and stop using any mutant as a plot-device.

[ExodusCloak]

I still don't understand your point. The HANDBOOK entry doesn't contradict anything I said about Xavier. And it was implied in the comics that he is an omnipath, and stated as fact that he had to shut down parts of his powers and his mind to save his sanity.

We'll see what the hardcover updated entry for Xavier says, when it comes out.

In any case, if you're talking about GEN X #50, for one thing, Emma Frost established a mind-link with Nate, who had lost his powers. That is all. Nate saw an image of the Dark Beast in her mind, when she established the psi-link. Nate is over Ireland when the psi-link is established. Perfectly within the White Queen's power range. Nate then comes back to Massachusetts to confront Emma in X-MEN #50. I was a huge fan of Nate Grey, so I remember this. Nate battles Frost, and even without his telepathic powers, they battle to a stand-off. But they stop when Gaia comes running and begs them to stop, to save the others. Nate makes a deal with Emma, to help her rescue her students, and she will share with him what she knows about Dark Beast.

There was no astral plane involved.

In any case, that's the point I was making. Emma Frost should not be able to astral project herself long-range. Those are the parameters of her powers. It isn't a good thing, and inconsistent, to show her doing what Xavier should only be able to do. I don't want to turn this thread into an Emma Frost thread, because it's not just about her. It's about how psionic powered mutants are portrayed, and she has been portrayed inconsistently, and there should be some guide.

And I don't think the HANDBOOKS are "crap" at all. The are incredibly good considering the vast amount of continuity that the writers have to deal with. In fact, it's Marvel writers that should pay attention to the HANDBOOKS, or some kind of guide, when creating plots and stories, in order to keep within certain guidelines and stop using any mutant as a plot-device.

The Handbook limits Xavier to 250 miles and states that Xavier is unable to perform long distance astral projection. Therefore handbooks are crap.

Yes she ripped through his head and planted an image of Dark Beast all the way from her office he was in Dublin...that's much more then 25 miles which means Handbook are crap.

Nate Grey did have his telepathic powers he was just unaware that he got them back after Psi-War. He used them to locate Emma in Gen X #50 and X-Man #50. Emma notes this at the beginning of X-Man #50.

Umm what? Do you not consider what she did from her school in The US to Ireland long range? And pray tell why do you say this? Because of the handbook? Xavier's handbook says that he is unable to astral project long range...does that mean he can't?

The power descriptions in handbooks are flawed and are usually onlyconsidered legitimate when they are supported by on panel evidence especially when it comes to strength classes.

[Rivka]

http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newmutants01513lj2.jpg

Again, nothing in that story that contradicts Emma's power parameters. It's from NEW MUTANTS #15. Illyana sent her astral self based on sorceress powers, to find out what happened to Kitty. She was sending her astral form TO the White Queen's vicinity, observing dear Emma torturing Kitty Pryde. Emma sent a psychic bolt to blast Ilyana's astral form.

Having Illyana say, after being blasted by Frost, that she might be on par with Xavier re power levels, is nothing but a character who doesn't know, and who has just been soundly beaten, speculating.

Emma Frost is not on Xavier's level of psionic power. And nor should she be. Ever. In my opinion. That's the entire point of this thread.

[ExodusCloak]

Emma Frost is not on Xavier's level of psionic power. And nor should she be. Ever. In my opinion. That's the entire point of this thread.

Again what has led you to this conclusion? She's currently clearly displaying feats that are on Xavier level .
Your whole argument was that there was never any evidence to hint that she was on Xavier level and that Marvel boosted her telepathy. There are plenty citations such as that, that put Emma up there. She never made that many appearances as a villian that's why her feats pool was so small. As a hero she makes more appearances has more feats. There's nothing back then to suggest that she wasn't on par with Xavier, the fact that it was hinted back then and that she is displaying such feats now proves that she is on par with him.

Emma's current feats clearly validate Illyana's statement and Xavier's statement of her being a Psi of the Highest order.

[Rivka]

The Handbook limits Xavier to 250 miles and states that Xavier is unable to perform long distance astral projection. Therefore handbooks are crap.

ExodusCloak, dear, read the next sentence. "With extreme effort he can greatly extend that distance." So, yes, the HANDBOOK is saying Xavier can greatly extend that distance. The HANDBOOKs are not "crap" -- they're actually very cool and helpful.

Yes she ripped through his head and planted an image of Dark Beast all the way from her office he was in Dublin...that's much more then 25 miles which means Handbook are crap.

I'm looking at the comic right now. She did not "rip" through his head. Nate accuses her of it, but she didn't. She calmly established a psi-link, and probed Nate's memories, and Nate saw the image of the Dark Beast in her mind. She went beyond her usual range to do this with one mutant. Not dozens all over the world at the same time. She still has a "roughly 20 mile radius" -- and that is what we're talking about here. She still should be portrayed as having limits.

Maybe you're right that 20 miles is too limiting, and maybe that needs to be adjusted. But still, clearly, she was beyond her power levels in UNCANNY #500.

Nate Grey did have his telepathic powers he was just unaware that he got them back after Psi-War.

It doesn't matter. He didn't have them at this time. It wasn't like Frost was mind-linking with a fully powered Nate Grey, who was an extremely powerful psi.

He used them to locate Emma in Gen X #50 and X-Man #50. Emma notes this at the beginning of X-Man #50.

He says in GEN X #50, "Funny thing about psi-links is that they can work both ways. And I saw the Dark Beast in that woman's head." So no, Nate is attributing his insight as to who is linking with him, to this. "It works both ways." Honestly, I am not going to get into a panel-by-panel debate with you. This is not about Emma Frost. It's about her powers, her range of powers, and how she is being written these days as a substitute for Xavier or Jean Grey.

In any case, Nate followed the image of the Dark Beast back to the source of the psi-link, and found Emma Frost. Frost says that would be impossible if his telepathic powers were really gone, as "you believe." But that's not the point of this discussion. Nate wasn't the fully powered X-Man, with the full powers he possesses at the time.

Umm what? Do you not consider what she did from her school in The US to Ireland long range? And pray tell why do you say this? Because of the handbook. Xavier's handbook says that he is unable to astral project long range...does that mean he can't?

She established a mind-link. With one person.

Handbooks are very flawed especially when it comes to strength classes.

They are not very flawed. They are remarkably accurate. There are some mistakes.

But that is not the point.

Xavier can project his astral form all over the world. I don't know if that means the same thing as projecting himself on to the astral plane. But we've never seen him have to go very far to project himself on the astral plane. His body just goes into a trance-like state.

[Swashbuckler]

Is it out the realm that Emma is just getting better and more powerful? I think it's fair to say that without other telepaths around, Emma may have spent time concentrating on her powers. Maybe she's on kick? Magneto did it, what can't she?

[Rivka]

Again what has led you to this conclusion? She's currently clearly displaying feats that are on Xavier level .

And that's the entire point of this discussion. She should not be on Xavier's level. And any telepathic or psi talent in the Marvel Universe should have parameters and limits.

Including Exodus, who goes from being so powerful as to hold off the combined efforts of Xavier and Sersi and Jean Grey, to being defeated by Dust and Emma Frost. That is not really good writing, in my opinion.

Your whole argument was that there was never any evidence to hint that she was on Xavier level and that Marvel boosted her telepathy. There are plenty citations such as that, that put Emma up there she never made that many appearances as a villian that's why her feats pool was so small. As a hero she makes more appearances has more feats. There's nothing back then to suggest that she wasn't on par with Xavier, the fact that it was hinted back then and that she is displaying such feats now proves that she is on par with him.

But she has not been shown to be on par with Xavier. Until recently.

And I don't have a "whole argument" that involves Emma Frost. This isn't just about Emma Frost but about how psychic mutants in general are portrayed. I realize that Emma Frost fans want her to be the MOST powerful, the most prominent, the most important character in all of the X-books, but that isn't good for the books, and it makes for poor story telling as a whole.

Emma's current feats clearly validate Illyana's statement and Xavier's statement of her being a Psi of the Highest order.

Again, if Emma's current feats do that, it's not a good thing for the X-books, and this is the entire point of the thread. You are arguing from the point of view, that outrageous or incredible power upgrades for your favorite character are good and must be immediately added to her profile.

And since this is NOT the Emma Frost thread, but a thread discussing how psychic mutants are portrayed as too powerful, and inconsistent, I'm saying, that what happened in UNCANNY #500 is not a good thing, and demonstrates poor writing because it makes Emma Frost a substitute for Jean or Xavier, gives her even more power than she had before for no other reason than to make the plot move forward, and causes a blurring of the lines between the different psionic talents in the Marvel Universe.

I am NOT attacking Emma Frost. I have stated my opinion about psionic mutants about four or five times now. I do not want to argue about Emma Frost in particular.

I will move on to other examples, if you don't mind.

[Rivka]

I apologize to the people in this thread, and to ExodusCloak. I didn't mean to get off on a bit-by-bit argument. I am sorry, ExodusCloak. I did state my opinion before and I should have left it at that.

But the topic of this thread is an interesting and an important one, and we should be discussing it.

Other psionic mutants who we need to be looking at, in my opinion, include:

Exodus (as mentioned) -- maybe the worst victim of inconsistent powers in the history of Marvel

Dani Moonstar

Psylocke

Psionic non-mutant characters like the Eternals.

Mr. Sinister (is he actually a psi?)

I'd especially like to see Exodus' powers defined. Here is what the most recent hardcover HANDBOOK says about Exodus:

"Exodus possesses a vast array of psionic powers such as telepathy, telekinesis (including levitation), and teleportation. He can generate powerful force fields, control the minds and bodies of others, project energy blasts, fly, drain psychic energy from victims to increase his own powers, generate psychic whirlwinds, resurrect the deceased, and ehance his own physical attributes to superhumanlevels."

Geez Marieez. He should be the most powerful being on the planet. On the other hand, his intelligence rating is low, at a 2. Is that why he is so easily defeated when the plot calls for it, by opponents who he should have destroyed in seconds? (I'm just being ironic. I have seen no evidence that his intelligence is that low.)

Anyway, I'd very much like to see Exodus portrayed in a way that used his full range of powers effectively. Like he was in the "Blood Ties" crossover, the last time he was portrayed well, in my opinion.

[marvell2100]

But the topic of this thread is an interesting and an important one, and we should be discussing it.

Other psionic mutants who we need to be looking at, in my opinion, include:

Exodus (as mentioned) -- maybe the worst victim of inconsistent powers in the history of Marvel









I'd especially like to see Exodus' powers defined. Here is what the most recent hardcover HANDBOOK says about Exodus:

"Exodus possesses a vast array of psionic powers such as telepathy, telekinesis (including levitation), and teleportation. He can generate powerful force fields, control the minds and bodies of others, project energy blasts, fly, drain psychic energy from victims to increase his own powers, generate psychic whirlwinds, resurrect the deceased, and ehance his own physical attributes to superhumanlevels."

Geez Marieez. He should be the most powerful being on the planet. On the other hand, his intelligence rating is low, at a 2. Is that why he is so easily defeated when the plot calls for it, by opponents who he should have destroyed in seconds? (I'm just being ironic. I have seen no evidence that his intelligence is that low.)

Anyway, I'd very much like to see Exodus portrayed in a way that used his full range of powers effectively. Like he was in the "Blood Ties" crossover, the last time he was portrayed well, in my opinion.

I agree with you about Exodus. After his recent feats in Legacy he should be the most powerful person in anybody's universe. Yet time and time again he gets defeated. Amazing.

[ExodusCloak]

ExodusCloak, dear, read the next sentence. "With extreme effort he can greatly extend that distance." So, yes, the HANDBOOK is saying Xavier can greatly extend that distance. The HANDBOOKs are not "crap" -- they're actually very cool and helpful.

Emma's new bio is pretty much a copy and paste of sections of Xavier's old one. How do you explain the line where it states he cannot perform Long Ranged Astral Projection? Xavier has performed long ranged astral projection heck he did so when he wanted to find what Magneto was up to with Namor during the Silver Age and I'm pretty sure if I looked I'd find more examples.

I'm looking at the comic right now. She did not "rip" through his head. Nate accuses her of it, but she didn't. She calmly established a psi-link, and probed Nate's memories, and Nate saw the image of the Dark Beast in her mind. She went beyond her usual range to do this with one mutant. Not dozens all over the world at the same time. She still has a "roughly 20 mile radius" -- and that is what we're talking about here. She still should be portrayed as having limits.

Umm she did rip through his head, she wasn't gentle when she probed his thoughts that's what Nate was talking about when he said she ripped though his mind.
Classic X-Men #7 has her communicate with Shaw over 200 miles and she's astral projected from her Academy to the Hellfire Club to talk to Shaw again in UXM(I'll get you the number if you want it it's in another thread) which is much more then 20 miles.

Of course she has limits the limits just so happen to be higher then you're making them out to be. Xavier sent a message to the Stranger from Earth in UXM #17. The Stranger was in another Galaxy.

Maybe you're right that 20 miles is too limiting, and maybe that needs to be adjusted. But still, clearly, she was beyond her power levels in UNCANNY #500.

It needs to be adjusted? So then the Handbook is incorrect? And Xavier and Emma can both perform long ranged astral projection.

She was farcasting in Blinded by the Light, Messiah Complex that 2003 Claws Mini.

It doesn't matter. He didn't have them at this time. It wasn't like Frost was mind-linking with a fully powered Nate Grey, who was an extremely powerful psi.

Of course it does, he was using his telepathy subconsciously. He wasn't all that in fights until Shaman, Mr. Sinister telepathically downed him and X-Force in about a panel.


He says in GEN X #50, "Funny thing about psi-links is that they can work both ways. And I saw the Dark Beast in that woman's head." So no, Nate is attributing his insight as to who is linking with him, to this. "It works both ways." Honestly, I am not going to get into a panel-by-panel debate with you. This is not about Emma Frost. It's about her powers, her range of powers, and how she is being written these days as a substitute for Xavier or Jean Grey.

In any case, Nate followed the image of the Dark Beast back to the source of the psi-link, and found Emma Frost. Frost says that would be impossible if his telepathic powers were really gone, as "you believe." But that's not the point of this discussion. Nate wasn't the fully powered X-Man, with the full powers he possesses at the time.

He was powered he just wasn't aware and he was using his powers subconsciously.

She established a mind-link. With one person.

Um so? What does that have to do with her range telepaths are constantly blocking out the background thoughts of people within their range.

And that's the entire point of this discussion. She should not be on Xavier's level. And any telepathic or psi talent in the Marvel Universe should have parameters and limits.

Including Exodus, who goes from being so powerful as to hold off the combined efforts of Xavier and Sersi and Jean Grey, to being defeated by Dust and Emma Frost. That is not really good writing, in my opinion.


But she has not been shown to be on par with Xavier. Until recently.

Again, if Emma's current feats do that, it's not a good thing for the X-books, and this is the entire point of the thread. You are arguing from the point of view, that outrageous or incredible power upgrades for your favorite character are good and must be immediately added to her profile.

And since this is NOT the Emma Frost thread, but a thread discussing how psychic mutants are portrayed as too powerful, and inconsistent, I'm saying, that what happened in UNCANNY #500 is not a good thing, and demonstrates poor writing because it makes Emma Frost a substitute for Jean or Xavier, gives her even more power than she had before for no other reason than to make the plot move forward, and causes a blurring of the lines between the different psionic talents in the Marvel Universe.

I am NOT attacking Emma Frost. I have stated my opinion about psionic mutants about four or five times now. I do not want to argue about Emma Frost in particular.

I will move on to other examples, if you don't mind.

This is where your logic is flawed.

You are basically saying this and I'm going to use an extreme example:

Say I created a character and I had them perform one rudimentary telepathic feat but I have 25 issues where the narrator says they're one of the most powerful telepaths, they're world class telepath, they're a psi of the highest order, they're possibly on par with Charles Xavier.

Then another writer comes 20 years later and has this telepath crush Charles, Emma and Jean similtaneously.

Your logic is that the telepath I created 25 years should not be able to perform such a feat...just because.

[ExodusCloak]

Exodus is not that much of jobber as people make him out to be.

In Bloodties, he fought Sersi to a stalemate. Charles and Jean were elsewhere in Genosha when this was happening. Jean was without the Phoenix Force and Charles mind blasted him and it stung. Charles never engaged him in Astral Combat which is just considered character induced stupidity much like the reason why Magneto drops his shields for no apparent reason during a fight with the X-Men.

In the Seige of Wundagore, Pietro was on Isotope E and attacked Exodus while he was fighting the Eternal Thena telepathically(He was winning).

In Austens run Mindee pulled the wool over his eyes telepathically. The Cuckoos limits haven't been tested as they've pulled the wool over Emma, Xavier and Phoenix.

In Messiah Complex Emma stalemated him. I don't have a problem with that as Emma's limits have only come into play when she's been smacked around by a Cosmic Bird and even then she managed to escape from it undetected from both Xavier and Phoenix. While one could say Exodus's has been tested after the 1999 Annual.

Handbooks are heavily influenced by how much you badger the writers which you can do here

http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=375

[Rivka]

I agree with you about Exodus. After his recent feats in Legacy he should be the most powerful person in anybody's universe. Yet time and time again he gets defeated. Amazing.

What wasted potential, too. He should be Magneto's heir, the biggest villain in the X-Universe.

I mean, what other psionic mutant, except the Summers clan, like Cable and Rachel, have such a range of psi abilities?

Speaking of portraying psychic mutants inconsistently, there is Cable. He rapidly became, in the mid 1990s, way too powerful. Which is why he had all these things happen to him, to bring his power levels back down. I'm not even sure what Cable's powers are these days, either. I'll have to go look that up, some time. I think he has his telepathic powers back, and he still obviously time-slides, but that's tech.

[Rivka]

In the Seige of Wundagore, Pietro was on Isotope E and attacked Exodus while he was fighting the Eternal Thena telepathically(He was winning).

I forgot about that. I liked how Exodus was Quicksilver's adversary in the QUICKSILVER ongoing series.

Although I wonder if that idea that Paris' powers are affected by his state of mind, or his level of self-esteem, or his level of enthusiasm, is still canon today.

[ExodusCloak]

Mr. Sinister is actually in the same predicament as Emma Frost regarding his status as a telepath but you don't see anyone complaining that Marvel boosted his telepathy.

During the Inferno he fought the X-Men on the Astral Plane, Jean did not have her telepathy and he bested Psylocke really quickly.

So many years later he decided to telepathically smack down Nate Grey and X-Force in two panels.

Only very recently did he decide to use telepathy again and was ranked as one of 5 uber telepaths

Again his limits were never established telepathically wise but I'd assume he'd be near Xavier level much like I'd assume Exodus is near Xavier level and Shadow King near Xavier level.

Cassandra Nova would be greater then Xavier level.

Moondragons powers were retconned, she was amped by the Dragon of the Moon and lost it once she lost it's influence. And then she was amped by the Mind Gem

Selene's telepathic powers have been shown to have limits as Dani Moonstar has beaten her.

Despero took down Martian Manhunter and Aquaman...both Despero and MM have feats that would be above Xavier. Gorrilla Grodd would be Xavier level.

Talisman has uber telepathy.

Strange's telepathy was retconned away.

[DeniseXfrost]

I hope that incident is never mentioned again. I can't believe they had Emma literally pulling information out of thin air :rolleyes: I do think they need to tone down some of her recent feats cause some of them are bordering on ridiculous.
I know it's ridiculous but osmosis is actually apart of her power. She did it once in the New x-men annual and sth similar in Genx.
And I don't have a "whole argument" that involves Emma Frost. This isn't just about Emma Frost but about how psychic mutants in general are portrayed. I realize that Emma Frost fans want her to be the MOST powerful, the most prominent, the most important character in all of the X-books, but that isn't good for the books, and it makes for poor story telling as a whole.

No, I and ,I believe, ExodusCloak were just trying to prove to you that he power isn't really boosted.

[Mikl C]

To be fair, her taking on exodus and sinister without cerebra was stupid.

[336Deadpool616]

And that's the entire point of this discussion. She should not be on Xavier's level. And any telepathic or psi talent in the Marvel Universe should have parameters and limits.

Including Exodus, who goes from being so powerful as to hold off the combined efforts of Xavier and Sersi and Jean Grey, to being defeated by Dust and Emma Frost. That is not really good writing, in my opinion.



But she has not been shown to be on par with Xavier. Until recently.

And I don't have a "whole argument" that involves Emma Frost. This isn't just about Emma Frost but about how psychic mutants in general are portrayed. I realize that Emma Frost fans want her to be the MOST powerful, the most prominent, the most important character in all of the X-books, but that isn't good for the books, and it makes for poor story telling as a whole.



Again, if Emma's current feats do that, it's not a good thing for the X-books, and this is the entire point of the thread. You are arguing from the point of view, that outrageous or incredible power upgrades for your favorite character are good and must be immediately added to her profile.

And since this is NOT the Emma Frost thread, but a thread discussing how psychic mutants are portrayed as too powerful, and inconsistent, I'm saying, that what happened in UNCANNY #500 is not a good thing, and demonstrates poor writing because it makes Emma Frost a substitute for Jean or Xavier, gives her even more power than she had before for no other reason than to make the plot move forward, and causes a blurring of the lines between the different psionic talents in the Marvel Universe.

I am NOT attacking Emma Frost. I have stated my opinion about psionic mutants about four or five times now. I do not want to argue about Emma Frost in particular.

I will move on to other examples, if you don't mind.

nobody's tryna bash emma frost because sinister exodus and all the psychic characters have had power increases in the last 15 years.and i dont blame anybody but the writers and editers for not having some of them limited.

with that said i still think that emma frost should not be on the same level as xavier. to argue that since emma didnt get much cameo as a villian that she had this much powers back then is ridiculus. she would have smash the x men if she could then what she can do now. if she was on xavier level back then why did pheonix beat her easily ( and that was when xavier limited jeans power which in so means that he was still stronger than jean)

my question is why all psychics gotta be written all powerful and grade a the only one's thats not are moonstone and karma which are great characters

if you look at classic x men before claremont jean powers were just tk and mind reading and projecting thoughts and as time grew she got stronger

why all the psychic gotta have all the same abilities is there a diffrence between xavier jean grey emma frost rachel grey sinister exodus cassandra nova

the thing i liked about new mutants is that karma and moonstone were both psychics but had diffrent powers karma mind control moonstone illusions

where's the diffrence where's the varity

[Slung]

To be fair, her taking on exodus and sinister without cerebra was stupid.

Her being able to psychically communicate to all the mutants in the world with out cerebra was also stupid.

This is the woman who in her prime Hellfire Club years couldn't find Angelica in a couple block radius because a basketball game was going on nearby. And the same woman Cassandra Nova called "bush league". Now she's pulling stunts from half a world away and taking on psychics who have always been superior to her. She's supposed to be cunning and unethical, not powerful - thats what separates her from Jean and Chuck - they are uber-powerful but ethical.

[Henry T.]

I can't wait to see how people react to next week's X-Men Legacy since its Emma v.s. Xavier. :wink: I don't think many will be surprised though.

[RMTrigger]

Since there seem quite a few people here that are well versed in psychic power stunts, I thought I'd ask this question.

I remember reading through a Jean vs Emma discussion on a forum once where someone cited a comic that dealt with the manipulation of an entire city of people. Now within this comic, there was a list of telepaths that were capable of mind controlling an entire city. Included within this list were telepaths like Shadow King and Emma Frost. Does anyone here know what comic this appeared in?

[metalgorgomon]

In terms of (raw) power IMO Emma should be below Prof X, Exodus, Sinister, Jean and all the Phoenix related people (Rachel, Nate)

But in terms of skill, Emma should be one of the most skillful in MU due to her un-ethical nature. And I think so does Prof X.

It's difficult for one to gain more 'raw' power unless someting extraordinary happen to him/her (ex. enhanced by M'kran Crystal) or using some form of enhancement (ex. Cerebra, Kick). But one can certainly be more skillful by means of traning.
And it's still possible that skilled one can beat the powerful ones. I think Claremont did a great job explaining that on his latest run in Uncanny (Emma vs Rachel in the Hellfire story)

Having said that the scene in UXM #500 is ridicilous, IMO. Since Emma should not have that much of raw power. On the other hand, the scene with Dust vs Exodus could make sense. One on one telepathic battle use skill as much as power. Not to mention that Emma also helped by Dust in the real world while battling Exodus in astral plane (tp battle).

I think 336Deadpool616 does have a point. There are many powerful phsycics in MU and most of them are X-characters. And having notice that problem Marvel did deal with the situation. That's why they killed Jean, Nate. depowered Dani, change Psylocke's telepathy, sent Rachel to space, not to mention HOM.

Having lack of prominent psyhic these days, they semed to upgrade Emma Frost telepathy without much explanation..

[Slung]

I can't wait to see how people react to next week's X-Men Legacy since its Emma v.s. Xavier. :wink: I don't think many will be surprised though.

I'm expecting for Xavier to swat her like a fly...am I going to be surprised?

[lockerogue]

Psylocke will forever be my favorite telepath. She was so creative in the use of her telepathy. She wasn't necessarily the strongest yet she was the most creative in the use of her powers IMO.

[Henry T.]

I'm expecting for Xavier to swat her like a fly...am I going to be surprised?

Oh dear. :frown:

I should have said given how Emma's been portrayed lately, people shouldn't be surprised.

[DeniseXfrost]

^There's no doubt Xavier is the more powerful one but I expect Emma to have a plan.
Psylocke will forever be my favorite telepath. She was so creative in the use of her telepathy. She wasn't necessarily the strongest yet she was the most creative in the use of her powers IMO.
I never saw Psylocke gives people orgasm.

[Slung]

Oh dear. :frown:

I should have said given how Emma's been portrayed lately, people shouldn't be surprised.

OMG - this is getting ridiculous. Xavier goes from defeating Exodus, Sinister to being one-upped by Emma. UGH.

[DeniseXfrost]

We all should use spoiler tags.
This is the woman who in her prime Hellfire Club years couldn't find Angelica in a couple block radius because a basketball game was going on nearby. And the same woman Cassandra Nova called "bush league".
Firestar's microwave effect telepathy and we don't know if the scene in genosha is real or not, even if it's real it's still not that big of a deal because comparing to Cassie, Emma's a bush league alright.

[Henry T.]

^There's no doubt Xavier is the more powerful one but I expect Emma to have a plan.


OMG - this is getting ridiculous. Xavier goes from defeating Exodus, Sinister to being one-upped by Emma. UGH.

I'm going to go ahead and give some slight spoilers without giving away too much details.

They do acknowledge that Xavier is technically more powerful and would win in a direct fight. And then they proceed to have Emma basically do to Xavier what Jean did to her in New #139.

[lockerogue]

I never saw Psylocke gives people orgasm.

You are out of control!!!!

[Slung]

We all should use spoiler tags.

Firestar's microwave effect telepathy and we don't know if the scene in genosha is real or not, even if it's real it's still not that big of a deal because comparing to Cassie, Emma's a bush league alright.

I don't remember the problem being Angelica's powers but all the other people in the area. And compared to Xavier, Jean and Exodus, Emma should be bush league.

[metalgorgomon]

I never saw Psylocke gives people orgasm.

She doesn't need telepathy to do that..

I'm going to go ahead and give some slight spoilers without giving away too much details.

They do acknowledge that Xavier is technically more powerful and would win in a direct fight. And then they proceed to have Emma basically do to Xavier what Jean did to her in New #139.

Now you make me curious.. Too bad I don't have the New #139 in my hand right now.. Legacy coming next Wednesday, right?

[DeniseXfrost]

And compared to Xavier, Jean and Exodus, Emma should be bush league.
No, that's Pyslocke and clearly you're not familiar with power inconsistency in comic book. Emma was introduced as a powerful psi, there were other numerous feats to back that up. And Jean wasn't all super powerfull in all of appearances either so I should call her a bush league?

[Kage Kisaragi]

Emma Frost is not on Xavier's level of psionic power. And nor should she be. Ever. In my opinion. That's the entire point of this thread.

This brings something else to mind. During WWH X-Men crossover, Emma held back the recently repowered Xavier's telepathic powers. I won't comment any further on that, I wont even say if it was right or wrong.

[DeniseXfrost]

She doesn't need telepathy to do that..

.....but we're talking about telepathy.

[DeniseXfrost]

Things brings something else to mind. During WWH X-Men crossover, Emma held back the recently repowered Xavier's telepathic powers. I won't comment any further on that, I wont even say if it was right or wrong.That was because Xavier's holding back and he had every reason to do so.

[metalgorgomon]

......but we're talking about telepathy.

I thought we're talking about orgasm??
Maybe she's just not into telephatic roleplay..

[DeniseXfrost]

.

I thought we're talking about orgasm??
Maybe she's just not into telephatic roleplay..
We're talking about creativeness in telepathy. Emma once pushed a bunch of reporters' 'bliss' button.

[metalgorgomon]

We're talking about creativeness in telepathy. Emma once pushed a bunch of reporters' 'bliss' button.

That's the Emma that I like. Ruthless and unethical.

[Slung]

No, that's Pyslocke and clearly you're not familiar with power inconsistency in comic book. Emma was introduced as a powerful psi, there were other numerous feats to back that up. And Jean wasn't all super powerfull in all of appearances either so I should call her a bush league?

I'm fully aware of power inconsistency. Its global-wide powers that bother me.

And yeah, Jean's been bush league before too. I liked her then too. Power levels don't make a character but ridiculous power pushes just because a character is now popular is bad for a character.

[nikbackm]

I'm fully aware of power inconsistency. Its global-wide powers that bother me.


Yep, only Gamesmaster :smile: and the fully developed Cable/X-Man should have that kind of power.

There are some extenuating circumstances though.

1. The message was only for a few hundred mutants. Might make it easier.

2. It was presumably a one way broadcast (farcasting). Seems like that should be much easier than to actually have a two-way telepathic communication with several hundred people. Emma also reached X-Man in Ireland from the US mainland once so there's a precedence for the range.

[Slung]

Yep, only Gamesmaster :smile: and the fully developed Cable/X-Man should have that kind of power.

There are some extenuating circumstances though.

1. The message was only for a few hundred mutants. Might make it easier.

2. It was presumably a one way broadcast (farcasting). Seems like that should be much easier than to actually have a two-way telepathic communication with several hundred people. Emma also reached X-Man in Ireland from the US mainland once so there's a precedence for the range.

But even Xavier, had to use Cerebro to do these kinds of feats. And Jean only started doing world-wide usages of power when she began embracing her Phoenix powers (sans force, but still Phoenix-ness).

[nikbackm]

But even Xavier, had to use Cerebro to do these kinds of feats. And Jean only started doing world-wide usages of power when she began embracing her Phoenix powers (sans force, but still Phoenix-ness).

What feats of Xavier are you referring to?

I usually do not consider what psychic feats any Phoenix-character are capable of since they range all over from "mere" Xavier level to nigh-omnipotence.

[Slung]

What feats of Xavier are you referring to?

I usually do not consider what psychic feats any Phoenix-character are capable of since they range all over from "mere" Xavier level to nigh-omnipotence.

Whenever he tries to do telepathic deed across large distances he uses cerebro.

And i was referring to Jean without Phoenix force (around UXM 355 or so)

[nikbackm]

Whenever he tries to do telepathic deed across large distances he uses cerebro.

Did any of those deeds happen to be just sending an SMS without waiting for a reply?


And i was referring to Jean without Phoenix force (around UXM 355 or so)

You must have missed the retcon, the Phoenix is now her mutation and is always there to some degree. :smile:

[Slung]

Did any of those deeds happen to be just sending an SMS without waiting for a reply?



You must have missed the retcon, the Phoenix is now her mutation and is always there to some degree. :smile:

No, I know the retcon of the retcon - I AM the resident "Jean-Crazy".

[ExodusCloak]

Oh dear. :frown:

I should have said given how Emma's been portrayed lately, people shouldn't be surprised.

Could you PM me spoilers pretty please?

There's no doubt that Xavier is more powerful but the margin is not very far.

Xavier communicated with the Stranger...and the range was possibly intergalactic depending on which planet the Stranger was visiting.

[nikbackm]

Could you PM me spoilers pretty please?

There's no doubt that Xavier is more powerful but the margin is not very far.

Xavier communicated with the Stranger...and the range was possibly intergalactic depending on which planet the Stranger was visiting.

I think he is referring to the preview.

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0809/19/marvelfirsts.htm

Last on the page.

[ExodusCloak]

I think he is referring to the preview.

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0809/19/marvelfirsts.htm

Last on the page.

Oh I see thanks,

Hah Emma's so arrogant by calling Xavier's statement a moot point.

The Beast scene is there, I expect to see a few Jean scenes, maybe the one where he says he loves her

[nikbackm]

Oh I see thanks,

Hah Emma's so arrogant by calling Xavier's statement a moot point.

I wonder which of these two definitions she (Carey) intended:

# of no legal significance (as having been previously decided)
# arguable: open to argument or debate; "that is a moot question"

[ExodusCloak]

I wonder which of these two definitions she (Carey) intended:

# of no legal significance (as having been previously decided)
# arguable: open to argument or debate; "that is a moot question"

I'd personally put Xavier slightly above her but you could pretty much say the same thing with his fight against Sinister and Exodus. There was a plot device in the Exodus thing as, Exodus wasn't even engaging him in combat, he strung Xavier through a bunch of illusions to coerce him into leading the Acolytes and did not want to hurt him.(Besides he could have just TK blasted Xavier like he did to Karima and Magneto if he really wanted to kill him)

Sinister was defeated emotionally but he wasn't overpowered. His machine had to be destroyed to stop the DNA mind process.

Xavier is arguably the most powerful telepath on the planet although with Cassandra Nova there I think that the point is irrelevant.

[nikbackm]

I'd personally put Xavier slightly above her but you could pretty much say the same thing with his fight against Sinister and Exodus. There was a plot device in the Exodus thing as, Exodus wasn't even engaging him in combat, he strung Xavier through a bunch of illusions to coerce him into leading the Acolytes and did not want to hurt him.(Besides he could have just TK blasted Xavier like he did to Karima and Magneto if he really wanted to kill him)

Sinister was defeated emotionally but he wasn't overpowered. His machine had to be destroyed to stop the DNA mind process.

Xavier is arguably the most powerful telepath on the planet although with Cassandra Nova there I think that the point is irrelevant.

Sure, I'd put Xavier above Emma as well. I just wondered if she admitted it to him. :smile:

Do you mean that Cassandra Nova is not a telepath, or maybe above mere human telepaths, when you say the point is irrelevant? She did seem to be well above Chuck in my opinion.

[ExodusCloak]

Sure, I'd put Xavier above Emma as well. I just wondered if she admitted it to him. :smile:

Do you mean that Cassandra Nova is not a telepath, or maybe above mere human telepaths, when you say the point is irrelevant? She did seem to be well above Chuck in my opinion.

Doubt she'd admit it to him.

The latter Cassandra Nova is well above Chuck. She made him put a gun to his head when he had 10 times the power.

[Henry T.]

Oh I see thanks,

Hah Emma's so arrogant by calling Xavier's statement a moot point.

The Beast scene is there, I expect to see a few Jean scenes, maybe the one where he says he loves her

The main flashbacks are of Rogue when she first joined, Cyclops before the new team was formed to go to Krokoa, and Moira's death. The Moira flashback from X-Men #108 contains several panels of Jean though and in her shadow form with the Phoenix over her eye like she had in Revolution.

Emma even slaps Xavier across his astral face during her psychic walkthrough. At the end Xavier isn't upset with Scott and Emma though. And he tells them about the previous Jean flashback that was in an earlier legacy issue where she told him sometimes death and rebirth are the same thing. Scott says Jean would know.

[HellFrost]

You must have missed the retcon, the Phoenix is now her mutation and is always there to some degree. :smile:

When did this happen? I know that that's what was originially intended, but it hasn't been that in a very long time.

[Henry T.]

When did this happen? I know that that's what was originially intended, but it hasn't been that in a very long time.

Grant Morrison's New X-Men. In the final story Here Comes Tomorrow it is explained that the Phoenix power is the ultimate mutation for psychic godhood. Sublime-Beast grants himself Phoenix power by injecting himself with Jean's blood. He calls it Phoenix blood and mentions the power being in Jean's dna, blood, and organs.

Morrison differentiated between the Phoenix Power/Potential and the Phoenix Consciousness. The power comes from mutants like Jean who have special mutations to be Phoenixes and the Consciousness comes from the White Hot Room to guide them and give them cosmic awareness.

The Phoenix being a part of certain individual's mutations (such as Jean and Rachel) is confirmed in Claremont's End of Grey's storyline during his Uncanny X-Men Reload run.

[Kage Kisaragi]

Xavier is arguably the most powerful telepath on the planet although with Cassandra Nova there I think that the point is irrelevant.

Except that Cassandra Nova isn't really a person as oppose to some psionic entity much like Onslaught wasn't a person. Shes just a part of Xavier that was expunged from him back in the fetus stage, something that clung to existence so tightly that it gained a type of sentience and continued to exist outside of him, it then copied his genetic traits and composed a body for itself amongst the material around it. This is what I got from Morrisons New X-Men.

[Saturius]

The only thing consistent about Jean and the Phoenix mythos is that it's always inconsistent. Don't try to make sense of it. It's impossible. Writers keep trying to simplify it or clarify it, but all they do is add to the massive clusterf*** that the bird has become.

[Kage Kisaragi]

The latter Cassandra Nova is well above Chuck. She made him put a gun to his head when he had 10 times the power.

She didn't make him put a gun to his head, by that point she had already trapped Xavier in her body and took over his, hence pulling the gun and shooting Cassies body. There was no indication that he was focusing Cerebra on Cassie in any attempt to break her or with her resisting against the full magnitude of Charles using Cerebra. All she needed was to make contact in order to pull her switch, not because Charles was weaker than her, but because he wasn't ready for it or suspect it, it's the same thing Emma does in that preview of Legacy.

[ExodusCloak]

She didn't make him put a gun to his head, by that point she had already trapped Xavier in her body and took over his, hence pulling the gun and shooting Cassies body. There was no indication that he was focusing Cerebra on Cassie in any attempt to break her or with her resisting against the full magnitude of Charles using Cerebra. All she needed was to make contact in order to pull her switch, not because Charles was weaker than her, but because he wasn't ready for it or suspect it, it's the same thing Emma does in that preview of Legacy.

Didn't she only take over his body in New X-Men #116. She attacked him from Ecuador while giving a tour and history lesson to Trask when Xavier was testing out Cerebra for the second time in New X-Men #114.

[HellFrost]

Grant Morrison's New X-Men. In the final story Here Comes Tomorrow it is explained that the Phoenix power is the ultimate mutation for psychic godhood. Sublime-Beast grants himself Phoenix power by injecting himself with Jean's blood. He calls it Phoenix blood and mentions the power being in Jean's dna, blood, and organs.

Morrison differentiated between the Phoenix Power/Potential and the Phoenix Consciousness. The power comes from mutants like Jean who have special mutations to be Phoenixes and the Consciousness comes from the White Hot Room to guide them and give them cosmic awareness.

The Phoenix being a part of certain individual's mutations (such as Jean and Rachel) is confirmed in Claremont's End of Grey's storyline during his Uncanny X-Men Reload run.


...I know I wasn't a big fan of the story, but I don't remember it being stated in there. Especially since Brubaker's Rise and Fall of the Shi'ar Empire. The Phoenix was a seperate entity, that stored itself (or a certain amount of its own power) in a sword years and years and years ago.

I personally think that 'Psychic godhood' is a big mistake. It means that Jeans ressurection(s) will always be short lived unless they keep her as a Marvel Cosmic character for now on. I, personally, prefer her with the X-Men, and see why 336deadpool616 would make such a thread.

And it was stated on here by a poster that Emma fans want Emma to be all powerful. This is false. As many of us have stated, time and time again, we just want Emma recognized for the power that she's always been stated to have. If she wasn't ever stated as one of the most powerful telepaths, telepath of high order, or what-not, then we wouldn't be having this conversation. People keep telling us that they don't want to make this into an Emma Frost thread(again), but they keep saying things contrary to what has been stated and shown in the books, and we get jumped down our throats when we give reasons or examples as to why she's able to perform feats that others don't remember or remember differently. Just as the Jean fans know the Jean feats and the Betsy fans know the Betsy feats, we Emma fans know what we're talking about as well. And I'm a fan of all 3 (well, I'll be a Betsy fan once again if she ever regains her original body... or powers at least)

If it's still so hard to believe that Emma is so powerful, think about it this way: The Phoenix amplifies the powers of any host it touches. Which is technically true to an extent. Especially since it gives the host so many different things they could do as Phoenix with juiced up power they already had. It makes sense that any of the number of Phoenix hosts would learn from the Phoenix Force. It is 'Psychic godhood,' is it not? It's a mortal learning the secrets from a god, which has happened dozens of times in all mythologies and religion. And let's face it, Super-Heroes and Super-Hero teams are our gods and pantheons of today.

[nikbackm]

Didn't she only take over his body in New X-Men #116. She attacked him from Ecuador while giving a tour and history lesson to Trask when Xavier was testing out Cerebra for the second time in New X-Men #114.

Yes, it was in #114 when she attacked from Ecuador. But it was Charles himself who put a gun to his head and threatened to pull the trigger after Nova had already got inside his mind while he was using Cerebra. I don't know what he thought that would accomplish, but presumably it would have killed them both.

In #116 Nova used Cerebra to switch bodies with Xavier.

[Magneto X]

I posted this here because the x universe have most of the psychics in marvel and i was just wondering do ya'll think psychics are to powerful maybe they killed jean grey because she was too powerful i mean she could take out most of the villians without the x men help so could emma frost rachel grey i think some people just dont understand just how powerful they are they can just go in your mind and shut it down but it seems that writers just have them using thier tk power

what i think is they should do is give each of them thier own field like

karma strong suit is mind control and psylocke with psionic energy
what do yall think


I can't see why Emma or Jean or any other telepath of the first order couldn't simple take out a group of villains who don't consist of powerful telepaths or have hive minds. I mean in all honestly I don't see Spidermans rogue gallery putting up much of a fight against an bloodlusted Emma or Jean. Heck even if they weren't bloodlusted.

I think too many people with terrifyingly powerful unstoppability is a problem. But I don't think it's a problem that Marvel or the X-Books have.

Having three or four major telepaths isn't too much: Xavier, Emma, Psylocke ... You can always wear protection, or have enought people trained well enough to resist it or divide it for a second, long enough to get a shot off.

The problem is when advanced telepathy is combined with physical protection as well as in: Exodus, Sinister, Phoenix, Daughter of Phoenix, Apocalypse, Nate, and Cable.

But of all of these only Exodus and half of Sinister is left. Even if you count Emma's physical protection, that's only three. Not too much.

But if the question was Jean and Nate killed off because they were too powerful? Yes, I think so. And I agree with it.

Especially because they were heroes. With heroes like that, where's the drama?

[Kage Kisaragi]

maybe I should clarify what I was saying about the UXM 114 or whatever issue it was. Charles willing put the gun to his head to prevent her from trying to get into his mind.(For whatever reason.) He didn't lose to her in some kind of psychic duel and resort to desperate measures. My argument was against the idea that she had some how forced him to put the gun to his head. She was trying to hack into his mind, and since none of us are psychics with Cerebra's in our living rooms, I can assume that none of us know how the machine might work if another powerful telepathic entity tried to low jack into our minds while we were using it.. perhaps she got a boost, she does say "My what a wonderful new toy you have, it lead me right to you." or something close to that.

[ExodusCloak]

maybe I should clarify what I was saying about the UXM 114 or whatever issue it was. Charles willing put the gun to his head to prevent her from trying to get into his mind.(For whatever reason.) He didn't lose to her in some kind of psychic duel and resort to desperate measures. My argument was against the idea that she had some how forced him to put the gun to his head. She was trying to hack into his mind, and since none of us are psychics with Cerebra's in our living rooms, I can assume that none of us know how the machine might work if another powerful telepathic entity tried to low jack into our minds while we were using it.. perhaps she got a boost, she does say "My what a wonderful new toy you have, it lead me right to you." or something close to that.

I don't think she got a boost. I think what she meant by saying that is she finally learnt of Xavier's whereabouts when he used it most probably by following the massive telepathic emissions back to the Mansion.
I just looked at it again, you're right he puts the gun to his own head but she does a real number on him.

[maigen]

I don't think she got a boost. I think what she meant by saying that is she finally learnt of Xavier's whereabouts when he used it most probably by following the massive telepathic emissions back to the Mansion.
I just looked at it again, you're right he puts the gun to his own head but she does a real number on him.

Off subject, but I can't count the number of times your avatar has made me vomit just a little bit.

Fun times.

[ExodusCloak]

Off subject, but I can't count the number of times your avatar has made me vomit just a little bit.

Fun times.

You're welcome...you must have lost a lot of weight.

[marvell2100]

Grant Morrison's New X-Men. In the final story Here Comes Tomorrow it is explained that the Phoenix power is the ultimate mutation for psychic godhood. Sublime-Beast grants himself Phoenix power by injecting himself with Jean's blood. He calls it Phoenix blood and mentions the power being in Jean's dna, blood, and organs.

Morrison differentiated between the Phoenix Power/Potential and the Phoenix Consciousness. The power comes from mutants like Jean who have special mutations to be Phoenixes and the Consciousness comes from the White Hot Room to guide them and give them cosmic awareness.

The Phoenix being a part of certain individual's mutations (such as Jean and Rachel) is confirmed in Claremont's End of Grey's storyline during his Uncanny X-Men Reload run.

Does this only happen to female telepaths? Is there a male equivalent? I remember reading GOTG v.1 I think where a male descendant of Jean was given the Phoenix Force but it think that was in an alt timeline. I've yet to see it manifest in any male telepaths in this era/timeline/reality. And there seems to be more mutant female telepaths than male. Are women more inherent to become telepaths than men(I know it's just comics but play along ok?)? Is it related to genetic makeup? Or is it because women in general are more empathic?

[Henry T.]

Does this only happen to female telepaths? Is there a male equivalent? I remember reading GOTG v.1 I think where a male descendant of Jean was given the Phoenix Force but it think that was in an alt timeline. I've yet to see it manifest in any male telepaths in this era/timeline/reality. And there seems to be more mutant female telepaths than male. Are women more inherent to become telepaths than men(I know it's just comics but play along ok?)? Is it related to genetic makeup? Or is it because women in general are more empathic?

That was Giraud. He was just an ordinary human and no established connection to Jean that I know of. They've since established that the Phoenix is connected to omega psychics.

Well at first the Phoenix was meant to be unique to Jean and her children. Claremont had Death itself tell this to Jean in Classic #43.

But Alan Davis retconned in two ancient male Phoenixes-- Feron and an Anti-Phoenix, Necrom.

Claremont thought about making Thunderbird III/Neal a male Phoenix that would have went by a Hindu name as his codename and would have been involved with Jean who was effectively Phoenix at the time during Revolution. But they nixed that idea.

Nate Grey was basically a male Phoenix. He was compared to Phoenix several times and he even manifested the Phoenix raptor once in X-Man. In Endangered Species they established that Nate had the same morphology and powers as Jean. Basically he is a Phoenix like she is. They said Jean belonged to a higher category than mutant (that category most likely being a Phoenix).

Morrison created the Phoenix Corp and Quentin Quire aka Kid Omega was one. Jean as a White Phoenix of the Crown seems to be a special type or among a special type of Phoenix.

In X-Men the End they say that Cable along with Rachel are heirs to Jean's Phoenix power.

Brubaker also created two male Shiar Phoenixes-- Rookshir and Korvus.

In Ultimate X-Men, Jean and a future Franklin Richards are Phoenixes.

In AOA, the Phoenix is Mutant Alpha, the first mutant and Jean's ancestor. It is unclear whether this ancestor was male or female.

Though Claremont did establish that the Phoenix was a female force/energy during one of his Uncanny X-Men Reload stories. He established that the First Foursaken is the cosmic male force/energy counter part to the Phoenix.

[Slung]

I don't think she got a boost. I think what she meant by saying that is she finally learnt of Xavier's whereabouts when he used it most probably by following the massive telepathic emissions back to the Mansion.
I just looked at it again, you're right he puts the gun to his own head but she does a real number on him.

People keep saying that Nova is some powerful telepath, but if she was so amazingly powerful, why did she need Xavier's mind to do all the crap that she wanted to do?

[darknessatnoon]

People keep saying that Nova is some powerful telepath, but if she was so amazingly powerful, why did she need Xavier's mind to do all the crap that she wanted to do?

She wanted to humiliate him and turn him into a weapon of destruction against his own people.

Nova is far more powerful than Xavier, no question. Her strength of will is also greater. She pulled herself out of the sewer and wasn't raised as some spoiled child in the X-mansion.

[Henry T.]

I love Cassandra Nova. She had such a great attitude and she was actually a scary villian. She wanted to make lovers rape their darlings and mothers to eat their children.

She was murdered in the womb, flushed down the toilet, and grew on a sewer wall. She committed genocide and jumped in her brothers body and had sex with his girlfriend. She stuck her hand through a guys face, made Gladiator pee his pants, and bitch slapped Jean.

She was such a crazy concept-- Xaviers twin that he murdered in the womb, a powerful mutant with multiple powers, and a mummundrai/Immensity meta-physical opposite thingy.

I think she broke the 4th wall in HCT too. She had dreams with us in them.

[darknessatnoon]

I love Cassandra Nova. She had such a great attitude and she was actually a scary villian. She wanted to make lovers rape their darlings and mothers to eat their children.

She was murdered in the womb, flushed down the toilet, and grew on a sewer wall. She committed genocide and jumped in her brothers body and had sex with his girlfriend. She stuck her hand through a guys face, made Gladiator pee his pants, and bitch slapped Jean.

She was such a crazy concept-- Xaviers twin that he murdered in the womb, a powerful mutant with multiple powers, and a mummundrai/Immensity meta-physical opposite thingy.

I think she broke the 4th wall in HCT too. She had dreams with us in them.

We are in agreement. Carey really offended me when he watered her down and had her call Charles "sweetie." Other than that, her every appearance has been golden, and I can overlook that one because it was just Charles imagining her. The "sweetie" thing was a clear sign of recovering brain damage.

[Tazirai]

Best use of telepath in a team goes to pre-outback/ outback era Psylocke. She was sneaky and could PSYCHOBLAST ya, but often as not she just got punched in the head!

Hence the Armored suit.. Thank god she learned to deal with multiple foes at once.

Psylocke could be considered powerful. Though just at the Level of jean during inferno. Shes a level down from Emma, just more creative.
The retconning of Psylocke to some Wimp against Sage is BS. The only reason Sinister got over on her was because the writers knew that Sinister had to be portrayed as this badass. In his first true appearances after all. When Mystique can take out Sinister solo, but the Entirety of the X-Men, even with a Telepath and Telekinetic Can't. that's just writing.

[Magneto X]

The only reason Sinister got over on her was because the writers knew that Sinister had to be portrayed as this badass. In his first true appearances after all. When Mystique can take out Sinister solo, but the Entirety of the X-Men, even with a Telepath and Telekinetic Can't. that's just writing.

Sinister, besides being a durable shapeshifter and almost immortal telekinetic, was a better telepath than Psylocke. Mystique was wearing psi-blockers and posing as an ally. And she had him a foot away from Rogue's death power. And she's a killer. Those are important advantages.

[psycwave]

If Marvel refuses to return Psylocke to her once and former telepathic glory which was grand. In her British and Aussie days Psylocke was alays said to be extremel powerful in the tp department. She could scan entire towns with ease, take control of multiple minds quickly, and psychoblast the hell outta you. She was sneaky and used it in creative and innovative ways. Even early ninja body swap did the sneaky things like that. It is what made Betsy a great telepath and if she would have been kept on that route I fear to say Emma frost probably wouldn't be where she is today. IMO. Instead they had to severely depower with the "focused totality of bullshit" and introduce Kwannon. Which helped my beloved Betsy gain the title of uber skank. Which she is hardly. Yeah she tried to f**k Scott. Who cares?!?! Jean was frigid, he was horny and so was Psylocke. We all have urges she just acted on hers. GET OVER IT. I will admit the butt floss didn't help either, but in the beginning she was hardcore, buttfloss and all. Psylocke is a gem. Her telekinesis is something that could actually be worth something if a writer utilized her correctly. If she used her tk in a nonconventional sense(i.e. augmenting her strength, speed, jumping) then blasting chairs around like noobs such as R'chel and Hellion, she would be better at her whole ninja appearance. Also let the tk katana actually affect the physical. Where are the little tk butterfly shurikens!? She always wanted to be a warrior. Let her think and act like one. I miss morally grey wannabee warrior Psylocke then all out ninja dragon lady Psylocke. Still i will always love her no matter what. Now that she is away from the clutched of CC i expect greatness to follow. COME ON MARVEL! MAKE MY GIRL GREAT AGAIN!

Still if they will not return Psylocke to her former glory then I opt for Karma to become the next big bad telepath.

[x_goalkeeper]

I don't think psychics or telepaths are too powerful. They can be defeated by surprising them among other things.

I think a better question to ask is if Wolverine is too powerful for comics. He cannot be killed, he can fully recover from a drop of blood, and he can attack telepaths even if they put all their effort into stopping him telepathicaly.

[BBeeryan]

I don't think psychics or telepaths are too powerful. They can be defeated by surprising them among other things.

I think a better question to ask is if Wolverine is too powerful for comics. He cannot be killed, he can fully recover from a drop of blood, and he can attack telepaths even if they put all their effort into stopping him telepathicaly.

In Logan's defense, some telepaths just need to be hit.

[Rutog98]

im just saying all psychics not just emma are the most powerful people in marvel
if you can do half the things emma frost can do your still a one of the strongest the only thing that can beat a psychic is another psychic

i just dont think they should of givin emma another power when she strong enough already and to say diamond skin is for defense is crazy because not only does it give her durability it gives her super strength that means she can beat you mentally and physicaly thats what i mean by she's too powerful

and plus she has tk you ever heard of a tk shield thats all the defense she needs
giving her diamond skin was stupid thats like giving colossus the ability to read minds

psychic powers and super strength and durability or complete opposites of each other and the weakness of each other they should never be combined psychics are supposed to be fragile against any physical attacks and super strength are supposed to be fragile against mental attacks

but since emma frost possesses but mental and physical powers she is with no doubt the most powerful superhero in marvel right now


I don't agree with this. There are plenty of ways to battle psi-powers and characters who can are well versed in this.

1) Characters with a strong enough spirit or will can overcome telepaths. We have seen this demonstrated countless times with the mutant Storm in her appearances where her will has been "indomitable" and there are also appearances where Magneto demonstrates the same thing. Heck, I don't think Emma could telepathically take out a beserk Wolverine. Logan has been able to keep Jean out of his mind when she tried to force her way in. She'd do better to try and fight him in her diamond form, IMHO.

2) Characters who control energies that jam or interfere with pychic energy. Both Storm and Magneto have demonstrated this power. Firestar has been able to interfere with Empath's abilities in the past as well, IIRC.

3) Technology. Strong enough psi-blockers to at least slow the telepath down if not all out stop them. Image Shaw coming at a telepath with a psi-blocking helmet. Even if the psi can eventually overcome it, while they are working at that, he can take it to them physically with his own mutant powers.

I think the major problem lies with the fact that writers tend to write down characters who can beat telepaths by writing out the aspects of them that makes them able to keep telepaths in check often times to make the telepaths seemingly unbeatable. There are checks and balances. While telepaths are very formidable, characters like Storm, Magneto, Wolverine and Sage (who shut her telepathy down so that she is not vulnerable to stronger telepaths) do keep them in check. Also, there is not much a mere telepath can do against a sentinel.

[Rutog98]

Again what has led you to this conclusion? She's currently clearly displaying feats that are on Xavier level .
Your whole argument was that there was never any evidence to hint that she was on Xavier level and that Marvel boosted her telepathy. There are plenty citations such as that, that put Emma up there. She never made that many appearances as a villian that's why her feats pool was so small. As a hero she makes more appearances has more feats. There's nothing back then to suggest that she wasn't on par with Xavier, the fact that it was hinted back then and that she is displaying such feats now proves that she is on par with him.

Emma's current feats clearly validate Illyana's statement and Xavier's statement of her being a Psi of the Highest order.

In all honesty, Shadow King and Xavier really stand heads and shoulders over Emma, non-Phoenix Jean and the rest of the telepaths. I am as big a White Queen fan as you and have kept up with Emma's feats over the years. Fact is, Xavier has contacted his X-Men across galaxies psychically. The battle he waged with the Dark Phoenix resounded on every plane of reality at the same time. There are even more feats and the Shadow King is even better than Xavier. While Xavier was a mere novice, Shadow King was attacking him a thousand different ways at once psychically and was only toying around. He lost the fight because he underestimated Xavier instead of taking care of business. We saw in the Muir Island Saga where he dwarfed Xavier in psi-power and massacred him in a psi-battle.

When writers say that Emma is possibly on a par with Xavier or some other such nonsense, it should be disregarded. As impressive as Emma is, Xavier is far more. Likewise, when non-Phoenix Jean is supposed to be the next in line in terms of power after Xavier, it should not be taken seriously. Emma's feats are far superior to non-Phoenix Jean's. I honestly don't know anything Jean has done without the Phoenix Force that puts her above a telepath like classic Selene in the 80s.

Personally, I think Shadow King is the most powerful (and easily the most skilled) psi, then Xavier (insert a huge gap), then Emma, then Exodus. After that, another bracket should start with Jean (no PF), classic Selene, Rachel (no PF), and Cable with the techno-virus. If we are talking TP Psylocke, she would be in the next bracket behind Sinister (he's more powerful than she as we saw in "Inferno").

This is really what would realistically be the case going by feats. I left out one-shot characters like Legion and the Goblin Queen.