FINAL CRISIS has been Darkseid's most successful attempt at universal domination ever

[Buried Alien]

...so it leaves the question of WHY he's waited so long to pull this particular strategy.

All those years of mucking around in vain against the DCU's superheroes, suffering one defeat after another, when he had this trump card to use all along?

What the devil was Darkseid waiting for all those years?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[ruppan]

A writer like Morrison who will write a book about evil winning, but not actually show what evil did to win.

Seriously, what was/is Darkseid's particular strategy?

[Paul McEnery]

...so it leaves the question of WHY he's waited so long to pull this particular strategy.

All those years of mucking around in vain against the DCU's superheroes, suffering one defeat after another, when he had this trump card to use all along?

What the devil was Darkseid waiting for all those years?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Final Crisis 4? :evilsmile:

[zomg]

He finally figured out the Anti-life equation and killed all of the New Gods, that's my guess. :p

[carabas]

A writer like Morrison who will write a book about evil winning, but not actually show what evil did to win.

Seriously, what was/is Darkseid's particular strategy?Using the Anti-Life Equation on a massive scale. But IIRC him having access to the pure and undiluted Anti-Life Equation is new. It's not something he could have done before now. Nevermind that Morrison is one of the first writers who uses the Equation properly, and gives it the power Kirby always alluded it had.

[Mat001]

Indeed. Darkseid was never interested in just bringing his armies to Earth and fighting it out. It was always the Anti-Life Equation that he sought. The thing is with the dawning of the Fifth World and all the proceeded it, Darkseid was able to finally learn the full equation like Scott Free had, but he was able to defy the odds and thus initiate the takeover.

[Thok]

What the devil was Darkseid waiting for all those years?

To quote Darkseid himself "There was a war in heaven. I won."

Of course, we have no idea what that means.

[Samuraixsithlord]

All those years of mucking around in vain against the DCU's superheroes, suffering one defeat after another, when he had this trump card to use all along?

What the devil was Darkseid waiting for all those years?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

What do you mean by trump card? it's not like he planned on dying so he could fight a war in heaven and win.

he just kinda lucked into it.

[Buried Alien]

What do you mean by trump card? it's not like he planned on dying so he could fight a war in heaven and win.

he just kinda lucked into it.

I think he knew this would happen.

COUNTDOWN and DEATH OF THE NEW GODS were a royal mess, but what can be gathered about both of them is that Darkseid knew all along that his "death" would empower him at an all-new level. He's been manipulating things in his favor since at least COUNTDOWN.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Magneto Rocks]

What the devil was Darkseid waiting for all those years?

As has been mentioned, he was too busy with the New Gods, not to mention that he didn't know the Anti-Life Equation yet. However, with the former gone and the latter in his hands.... well, the universe is screwed. :p

[Paul McEnery]

I think he knew this would happen.

COUNTDOWN and DEATH OF THE NEW GODS were a royal mess, but what can be gathered about both of them is nothing at all.[/COLOR]

Fixed it for you!

Seriously. Darkseid got ALE and now he's drunk on power. Ha ha. It is funny.

And the point is not just to remake the world in his own image, it's to remake the entire universe in his own image on the far side of the crisis.

What we're looking at here is just prep work.

[Adam C]

To quote Darkseid himself "There was a war in heaven. I won."

Of course, we have no idea what that means.

How is that not clear? From the basic context it's pretty clear that Darkseid won his war against New Genesis and thus eliminated one of his biggest obstacles to taking over the universe.

Anyways the problem with answering this question is lack of co-ordination between Final Crisis and it's two major lead-ins which offered information that outright contradicted the set-up of FC. And as it stands it seems like FC's first three issues didn't concern themselves with answering the question, largely because Morrison was trying to keep the Dark Gods off to the side as they took over the Earth surreptitiously. (Granted I'm not sure if that even needs to be spelled out beyond "Darkseid won! We're screwed now!")

[Thok]

How is that not clear? From the basic context it's pretty clear that Darkseid won his war against New Genesis and thus eliminated one of his biggest obstacles to taking over the universe.

Except that even in DC, New Genesis =/= Heaven.

And secondly, we don't know how he won, which is sort of important.

[GRANT!]

What the devil was Darkseid waiting for all those years?


A good writer.

[Paul McEnery]

Except that even in DC, New Genesis =/= Heaven..

Literal-minded much?

[Samuraixsithlord]

And secondly, we don't know how he won, which is sort of important.

exactly. see my posts about Mandrakk

[Thok]

Literal-minded much?

You really don't think Morrison, the guy who among other things created Zauriel for JLA, doesn't know the difference between Heaven and New Genesis in the DC Universe? If he's having Darkseid say that there was a "War in Heaven", there's a reason for specifically saying that rather than that there was a "War between the New Gods."

[Samuraixsithlord]

You really don't think Morrison, the guy who among other things created Zauriel for JLA, doesn't know the difference between Heaven and New Genesis in the DC Universe? If he's having Darkseid say that there was a "War in Heaven", there's a reason for specifically saying that rather than that there was a "War between the New Gods."

Didn't Morrison actually say that it was "heaven" heaven and not just the fourth world. Like Darkseid kicked the crap out of the almighty kinda victory

[Adam C]

You really don't think Morrison, the guy who among other things created Zauriel for JLA, doesn't know the difference between Heaven and New Genesis in the DC Universe? If he's having Darkseid say that there was a "War in Heaven", there's a reason for specifically saying that rather than that there was a "War between the New Gods."

...as opposed to using the word "heaven" in a metaphoric/descriptive sense?

Didn't Morrison actually say that it was "heaven" heaven and not just the fourth world. Like Darkseid kicked the crap out of the almighty kinda victory

Not that I am aware of. From what I remember of all the interviews he has done, the victory was specifically over New Genesis.

[Adam C]

exactly. see my posts about Mandrakk

And to offer a more substantial point of discussion, yeah, I agree. The original statement in my post was more (over)reacting to what I perceive as an excessive need among many comic fans to have things explained. Giving the matter more thought, Morrison will have to connect Darkseid's victory to Mandrakk somehow, which would entail greater explanation of the victory.

Plus, he said in his IGN interview that he is going to try and fix the discrepancies between FC and the lead-ins. No idea how soon that will happen though.

[Paul McEnery]

You really don't think Morrison, the guy who among other things created Zauriel for JLA, doesn't know the difference between Heaven and New Genesis in the DC Universe? If he's having Darkseid say that there was a "War in Heaven", there's a reason for specifically saying that rather than that there was a "War between the New Gods."

He's making a literary reference to Paradise Lost.

As he was with the fall of flaming Darkseid.

[Adam C]

He's making a literary reference to Paradise Lost.

As he was with the fall of flaming Darkseid.

Ooooooohhhh good one. I initially took it as pithy metaphor.

[Paul McEnery]

Ooooooohhhh good one. I initially took it as pithy metaphor.

And then there's more to it than that.

So Darkseid is Flaming Satan, yeah? And the world he falls to is Earth. So Earth = Hell. Or, alternatively, he's become Ioldaboath, the Prince of This World, the Demiurge of our level of creation.

OTOH, Barry Allen is the Shekinah, the Holy Spirit, Holy Wisdom descended to our fallen world to bring redemption.

So we don't just have your classic "tiny bit of good to fight a whole world full of evil" going on. We've also got dueling epistemologies: Darkseid = the binary good vs. evil of a determinist system wrapped up in a monist "I am the master of the universe"; Flash = the pluralist (many Flashes!) vision (many worlds!) of a Zoroastrian manichaeism that is transcended at higher planes (many levels!).

So that's revivifying gnosis versus utilitarian science, then.

Do we imagine that this thesis/antithesis binary will lead to a synthesizing aufhebung? I think perhaps we might.

[OzBat!]

Meh. See Flash run. Run Flash run! Run run run!

[Adam C]

And then there's more to it than that.

So Darkseid is Flaming Satan, yeah? And the world he falls to is Earth. So Earth = Hell. Or, alternatively, he's become Ioldaboath, the Prince of This World, the Demiurge of our level of creation.

OTOH, Barry Allen is the Shekinah, the Holy Spirit, Holy Wisdom descended to our fallen world to bring redemption.

So we don't just have your classic "tiny bit of good to fight a whole world full of evil" going on. We've also got dueling epistemologies: Darkseid = the binary good vs. evil of a determinist system wrapped up in a monist "I am the master of the universe"; Flash = the pluralist (many Flashes!) vision (many worlds!) of a Zoroastrian manichaeism that is transcended at higher planes (many levels!).

So that's revivifying gnosis versus utilitarian science, then.

Do we imagine that this thesis/antithesis binary will lead to a synthesizing aufhebung? I think perhaps we might.

See...I was following that until aufhebung.

[Rio_de_Janeiro]

in the mister miracle mini-series of seven soldiers of victory.

iirc, it is one or two panels, quite big, quite full of people...
it looked very messy.


mind you, morrison did something really pleasing to me with this 7sov experience.... he made me rrrreeeeaaalllyyy confused, yet still understanding the gist of the story ...and then.... BLAM -- in Final Crisis he gave me the key to go back and UNDERSTAND mister miracle, thus completing my understanding of the whole thing.

i love this man.



How is that not clear? From the basic context it's pretty clear that Darkseid won his war against New Genesis and thus eliminated one of his biggest obstacles to taking over the universe.

Anyways the problem with answering this question is lack of co-ordination between Final Crisis and it's two major lead-ins which offered information that outright contradicted the set-up of FC. And as it stands it seems like FC's first three issues didn't concern themselves with answering the question, largely because Morrison was trying to keep the Dark Gods off to the side as they took over the Earth surreptitiously. (Granted I'm not sure if that even needs to be spelled out beyond "Darkseid won! We're screwed now!")

[Paul McEnery]

See...I was following that until aufhebung.

Can't get round it. The English translations of the word are garbage. I mean, "sublation" -- who on earth could guess the meaning of that if they tripped over it in a book?

I'd have stuck with "synthesis" if it didn't lose the original Hegelian meaning of "uplifting" -- or taking it to the next level, as I understand the kid's today like to say.

[Paul McEnery]

Meh. See Flash run. Run Flash run! Run run run!

See Darkseid scowl. Run Flash Run!

[Raker616]

I never thought i'd be underwhelmed when Darkseid actually won but FC has done exactly that, I just wish for once a writer made him the bad ass that he should be instead of a punching back for Superman.

[Samuraixsithlord]

I never thought i'd be underwhelmed when Darkseid actually won but FC has done exactly that, I just wish for once a writer made him the bad ass that he should be instead of a punching back for Superman.

Darkseid hasn't even shown up in his true form yet. How can you be underwhelmed by his abilities if he hasn't even cut loose yet.

I don't have a problem with Superman beating him after a tough fight. He's not Doomsday or Bizarro, he's a mastermind behind the scenes type of guy like Luther or Ras al Ghul.

[Samuraixsithlord]

And to offer a more substantial point of discussion, yeah, I agree. The original statement in my post was more (over)reacting to what I perceive as an excessive need among many comic fans to have things explained. Giving the matter more thought, Morrison will have to connect Darkseid's victory to Mandrakk somehow, which would entail greater explanation of the victory.

Plus, he said in his IGN interview that he is going to try and fix the discrepancies between FC and the lead-ins. No idea how soon that will happen though.

Mandrakk seems to be the more immediate threat. While Darkseid's playing hitler on earth, Mandrakk has his "nanobots" destroying the very foundation of the multiverse.

He may have played a hand in Darkseid's victory in heaven, or he may just be running loose because Darkseid's fall through reality woke him up in his prison.

[Sean Walsh]

Didn't Morrison actually say that it was "heaven" heaven and not just the fourth world. Like Darkseid kicked the crap out of the almighty kinda victory

If it was "heaven heaven," then FC: REVELATIONS makes no sense, does it?

New Genesis isn't a "nice place where we go when we die" heaven, but it's a place of immense beauty and wonder and everything Darkseid, lord of the hell that is Apokolips, hates.

[The Cool Thatguy]

So J'ohn was captured off panel, Darksied killed the New Gods off panel, discovered the Anti-life equation off panel and since Countdown is offically/unoffically no longer continuity, he's corrupted Mary Marvel off panel.

Maybe Darksied's success is because writers have gotten pretty lazy of late? ;)

[carabas]

To be fair, if Countdown is anythin to go by, Mary Marvel was always corrupt. Never before have Darkseid and Eclypso have to do so little to get such spectacular results.

As for Final Crisis's off-panelliness, I expect some major flashbacks in the rest of it.

[PatchMadripoor]

?

What the devil was Darkseid waiting for all those years?

Agreed, he didn't know the entire Anti-Life equation.

[Golden_Guardian]

And then there's more to it than that.

So Darkseid is Flaming Satan, yeah? And the world he falls to is Earth. So Earth = Hell. Or, alternatively, he's become Ioldaboath, the Prince of This World, the Demiurge of our level of creation.

OTOH, Barry Allen is the Shekinah, the Holy Spirit, Holy Wisdom descended to our fallen world to bring redemption.

So we don't just have your classic "tiny bit of good to fight a whole world full of evil" going on. We've also got dueling epistemologies: Darkseid = the binary good vs. evil of a determinist system wrapped up in a monist "I am the master of the universe"; Flash = the pluralist (many Flashes!) vision (many worlds!) of a Zoroastrian manichaeism that is transcended at higher planes (many levels!).

So that's revivifying gnosis versus utilitarian science, then.

Do we imagine that this thesis/antithesis binary will lead to a synthesizing aufhebung? I think perhaps we might.

What a lot of tosh! lol

No offense to you but if this is what Morrisson is aiming for then he really should just take his head from up his own butt...

[Samuraixsithlord]

To be fair, if Countdown is anythin to go by, Mary Marvel was always corrupt.

that should do another Trials of Shazam maxi that stars Mary if she where to be redeemed after FC.

It would involve her proving to each of the magic gods that she is truely worthy to be a champion of shazam.

Countdown and FC actually made me interested in Mary Marvel

[Paul McEnery]

What a lot of tosh! lol

No offense to you but if this is what Morrisson is aiming for then he really should just take his head from up his own butt...

The Marvel Adventures are over there at the back... :biggrin:

[Sean Walsh]

And then there's more to it than that.

So Darkseid is Flaming Satan, yeah? And the world he falls to is Earth. So Earth = Hell. Or, alternatively, he's become Ioldaboath, the Prince of This World, the Demiurge of our level of creation.

OTOH, Barry Allen is the Shekinah, the Holy Spirit, Holy Wisdom descended to our fallen world to bring redemption.

So we don't just have your classic "tiny bit of good to fight a whole world full of evil" going on. We've also got dueling epistemologies: Darkseid = the binary good vs. evil of a determinist system wrapped up in a monist "I am the master of the universe"; Flash = the pluralist (many Flashes!) vision (many worlds!) of a Zoroastrian manichaeism that is transcended at higher planes (many levels!).

So that's revivifying gnosis versus utilitarian science, then.

Do we imagine that this thesis/antithesis binary will lead to a synthesizing aufhebung? I think perhaps we might.

Well, duh.

:wink: :tongue:

(In all seriousness - I have no idea what any of this means. I might've, years ago, but not anymore.)

[CBikle]

...so it leaves the question of WHY he's waited so long to pull this particular strategy.

All those years of mucking around in vain against the DCU's superheroes, suffering one defeat after another, when he had this trump card to use all along?

What the devil was Darkseid waiting for all those years?



1 Either his other schemes were just jabs to test the waters and see what kinds of opposition he'd face when he did pull his big master plan or....

2 Maybe the universe (multiverse) was too unstable and with all the cosmic dickery getting perpetrated by the Anti-Monitor, Alexander Luthor, Mr. Mind, Monarch, Parallax, etc, Darkseid wanted to wait for things to settle down enough and have a relatively clean playing field before committing himself or...

3 Getting thrown into the sun by Superman (in that terrible Loeb story in Batman/Superman) pissed Darkseid off enough to finally get him to quit screwing around and get his act in gear.

[Paul McEnery]

Well, duh.
:tongue:

(In all seriousness - I have no idea what any of this means. I might've, years ago, but not anymore.)

Just for you, I'll unpack it.

So the Christian version of reality is that there's Heaven above, Hell below, and Earth is an afterthought in the middle. When Satan falls (in Paradise Lost), the Earth is still a blueprint. So if Darkseid is like Satan for falling from Heaven, then Earth 0 is Hell.

At the moment, that appears to be Darkseid's objective, to create a Hell on Earth. There's also the fun idea that Milton's Satan is all about "that dark disobedience" -- he's an English Rebel against the throne, basically; told you America was the Great Satan! :evilsmile: -- but Darkseid is the proof of that old adage, scratch an anarchist, find a fascist. He's the flipside of Milton's Satan, the desire to totally dominate and exclude all chance -- all life! -- from the universe.

But if we follow Milton in this -- and I think we're supposed to -- the real battleground isn't Earth 0 (which is simply Hell), but the new Earth, the next creation, the Fifth World. Whatever that's going to be. This is prepwork for the Universe After This.

But in Zoroastrian mythology, we have a series of shell universes, different levels of being emanating from the perfect God, each one a little less perfect than the one before, and Earth hangs in the middle.

What happens on one level reflects what happens on the other level -- in fact, we can think of the players on each level as being somehow the same being as their analogues on the next level up or down, so that an angel and its corresponding demon are the up and down side of the same thing.

Anyway, what Christianity calls the Devil is in Zoroastrianism the Prince of This World (think of the W as 2 U's and POTW = POTUS!; told you America was the Great Satan!:evilsmile: ). Amongst the Gnostics the Prince of This World has the name Ioldaboath. He's a lesser god -- a demiurge -- who foolishly believes the level he was sent to administer is actually his own creation. He's all Al Haig -- I'm in charge! I made all this. Me me me! A cosmic three year old, IOW.

Which is why the world is all screwed up and evil, because POTW acts like a colonial adminstrator who things he's the God King of everything, and gives power to people who are just like him.

What God does about this is emanate down through the levels of reality as the Paraclete. This carries over into Jewish thought as the Shekinah, and into Christian thought as the Holy Spirit, and the two are combined in Orthodox thought as Saint Sophia (not actually a saint, it means Holy Wisdom). Or you can think of it as a white dove, or something with two wings on either side of its helmet:biggrin: , or a version of Hermes/Mercury, or maybe even the Speed Force.

Hence the return of Barry Allen.

So we can think of Organized Christianity -- the Holy Roman Empire, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Crazy Christians who want to ban everything and nuke the Middle East, all that good stuff -- as the territory of Darkseid/Ioldaboath. He's a means to an end kind of a guy, who wants everything his own way; the power behind the scenes through history (and its dictators), but now, at the end of history, he's taken center stage (cue stuff from Revelations).

But that's a fallen version of Christianity, and of the message the Jesus/Paraclete came to give. And we should remember the theology of the incarnation. The Jesus/Paraclete is fully human, doesn't know everything, has weakness like the rest of us, doesn't want to accept the cup, and so on.

See Barry Allen: what on earth am I doing back here? I already died to save the universe once. I ascended into Heaven, dammit! Now what? He's confused, weak compared to Darkseid's power, what now?

So there's your good versus evil: your gnostic emanation of the divine versus the gnostic emanation of the divine that went wrong.

Which we might usefully compare to All-Star Superman 12.

[Golden_Guardian]

The Marvel Adventures are over there at the back... :biggrin:

Lol, that's not a bad idea :wink:

[Golden_Guardian]

Just for you, I'll unpack it.

So the Christian version of reality is that there's Heaven above, Hell below, and Earth is an afterthought in the middle. When Satan falls (in Paradise Lost), the Earth is still a blueprint. So if Darkseid is like Satan for falling from Heaven, then Earth 0 is Hell.

At the moment, that appears to be Darkseid's objective, to create a Hell on Earth. There's also the fun idea that Milton's Satan is all about "that dark disobedience" -- he's an English Rebel against the throne, basically; told you America was the Great Satan! :evilsmile: -- but Darkseid is the proof of that old adage, scratch an anarchist, find a fascist. He's the flipside of Milton's Satan, the desire to totally dominate and exclude all chance -- all life! -- from the universe.

But if we follow Milton in this -- and I think we're supposed to -- the real battleground isn't Earth 0 (which is simply Hell), but the new Earth, the next creation, the Fifth World. Whatever that's going to be. This is prepwork for the Universe After This.

But in Zoroastrian mythology, we have a series of shell universes, different levels of being emanating from the perfect God, each one a little less perfect than the one before, and Earth hangs in the middle.

What happens on one level reflects what happens on the other level -- in fact, we can think of the players on each level as being somehow the same being as their analogues on the next level up or down, so that an angel and its corresponding demon are the up and down side of the same thing.

Anyway, what Christianity calls the Devil is in Zoroastrianism the Prince of This World (think of the W as 2 U's and POTW = POTUS!; told you America was the Great Satan!:evilsmile: ). Amongst the Gnostics the Prince of This World has the name Ioldaboath. He's a lesser god -- a demiurge -- who foolishly believes the level he was sent to administer is actually his own creation. He's all Al Haig -- I'm in charge! I made all this. Me me me! A cosmic three year old, IOW.

Which is why the world is all screwed up and evil, because POTW acts like a colonial adminstrator who things he's the God King of everything, and gives power to people who are just like him.

What God does about this is emanate down through the levels of reality as the Paraclete. This carries over into Jewish thought as the Shekinah, and into Christian thought as the Holy Spirit, and the two are combined in Orthodox thought as Saint Sophia (not actually a saint, it means Holy Wisdom). Or you can think of it as a white dove, or something with two wings on either side of its helmet:biggrin: , or a version of Hermes/Mercury, or maybe even the Speed Force.

Hence the return of Barry Allen.

So we can think of Organized Christianity -- the Holy Roman Empire, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Crazy Christians who want to ban everything and nuke the Middle East, all that good stuff -- as the territory of Darkseid/Ioldaboath. He's a means to an end kind of a guy, who wants everything his own way; the power behind the scenes through history (and its dictators), but now, at the end of history, he's taken center stage (cue stuff from Revelations).

But that's a fallen version of Christianity, and of the message the Jesus/Paraclete came to give. And we should remember the theology of the incarnation. The Jesus/Paraclete is fully human, doesn't know everything, has weakness like the rest of us, doesn't want to accept the cup, and so on.

See Barry Allen: what on earth am I doing back here? I already died to save the universe once. I ascended into Heaven, dammit! Now what? He's confused, weak compared to Darkseid's power, what now?

So there's your good versus evil: your gnostic emanation of the divine versus the gnostic emanation of the divine that went wrong.

Which we might usefully compare to All-Star Superman 12.

I am SO glad that I am an atheist...

[Desaad]

The issue is this;

There was a war in heaven. And I WON.

As Grant Morrison has re-imagined these characters, what we've seen of Darkseid is only a shade, a phantom, an aspect of a mighty god's power. We've never seen Darkseid fully manifest in our 'shell' of existence, in part I'm sure for the very reason we're seeing now - our foul, mundane existence wasn't made strong enough to hold divine presences like these and as a result of it, the multiverse collapses(there was something similar seen in the Lucifer series, in which his very presence in a dimension caused it's dissolution).

But New Genesis LOST the Great War. They aren't there to keep the true Darkseid in check any longer, their light no longer balances his darkness (or to be more true to the characters in their original form, their freedom no longer balances his tyranny...Morrison is subverting some fundamentals of the characters and the mythos in order to tell his gnostic/biblical mythology tale) .

With the gods of New Genesis gone, the gods of Apokolips are free to manifest truly on earth (fulcrum of the multiverse).

This is the first time we've ever seen a Darkseid unfettered. Unburdened by his cosmic opposite and counterpart.

And so this is what Darkseid can REALLY do.


As an aside, as a big New Gods fan it's not exactly the closest Darkseid has ever come to achieving his goals. He's nearly pierced the Source in Martian Manhunter, he's entered and tainted the source in v3, he twisted Orion to evil in Simonson's Orion series (never got a chance to use that to his advantage, admittedly), he turned the world against it's heroes in Legends, he conquered Olympus in Action 600, he nearly harnessed the power of the Godwave in Genesis, he's conquered the pantheons of a thousand worlds in JK4W and Orion, he's taken over the earth and, indeed, the universe n Rock of Ages (engineering his victory across time to do so), etc.

So he's done his thing.

[bfrank]

...so it leaves the question of WHY he's waited so long to pull this particular strategy.

All those years of mucking around in vain against the DCU's superheroes, suffering one defeat after another, when he had this trump card to use all along?

What the devil was Darkseid waiting for all those years?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Simple:

Alexander luthor and Superboy Prime to re create the multiverse.....otherwise his fall would have been for naught......

[carabas]

And as has been mentioned before, he was waiting because he didn't have his #1 weapon, the Anti-Life Equation.

[rick]

I don't know if this plan is either the best or most successful one Darkseid has ever come up with.

The Great Darkness Saga, literally had him taking over most of the DC Universe and he only loses in the end because of the sudden Dues Ex Machina appearance of a reborn Highfather.

[Jeff F]

Previously, he had been too distracted by LOLcats and YouTube to learn how to use email.

[Buried Alien]

Simple:

Alexander luthor and Superboy Prime to re create the multiverse.....otherwise his fall would have been for naught......

What about during the Pre-COIE era, however? Darkseid has been scheming to conquer the universe since long before the Anti-Monitor's assault on the Multiverse manifested itself in the first Crisis.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Adam C]

What about during the Pre-COIE era, however? Darkseid has been scheming to conquer the universe since long before the Anti-Monitor's assault on the Multiverse manifested itself in the first Crisis.


As I think GRANT! said earlier, a decent writer. Until we get an in-story explanation as to what happened we're stuck with speculation because there is not a lot to go on. And what it basically boils down to is that Morrison was clever enough to write Darkseid taking over the universe on the sly, and in such a manner that traditional super-heroics would be completely ineffective.

[GRANT!]

What about during the Pre-COIE era, however? Darkseid has been scheming to conquer the universe since long before the Anti-Monitor's assault on the Multiverse manifested itself in the first Crisis.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

He's a fictional character limited by the imaginations of writers and restrictions from the DC editorial department.

[Samuraixsithlord]

I don't know if this plan is either the best or most successful one Darkseid has ever come up with.

The Great Darkness Saga, literally had him taking over most of the DC Universe and he only loses in the end because of the sudden Dues Ex Machina appearance of a reborn Highfather.

Didn't Darkseid fight and retain the upper hand when fighting a Pre-Crisis Superboy?.

Since FC isn't over yet i'm waiting to judge which was the better attempt.

[theNighteye]

He's been planning this for all that time. He's not that smart you know. His brain is all rocks. lol

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[Adam C]

Didn't Darkseid fight and retain the upper hand when fighting a Pre-Crisis Superboy?.


Yeah, but he's been repeatedly curbstomped by post-Crisis Superman.

[Samuraixsithlord]

Yeah, but he's been repeatedly curbstomped by post-Crisis Superman.

That was pre-crisis Darkseid as well, who had the powers of The Time Trapper and Mordru as well

[Sean Walsh]

That was pre-crisis Darkseid as well, who had the powers of The Time Trapper and Mordru as well

Yeah, but at least back then Superman could wrestle black holes and toss planets at Jesus and drive him away crying.

Post-COIE Supes was depowered to the point where he can only pick up and hurl movie theatres showing the '70s Disney movie THE BLACK HOLE and punch the heads off Catholic priests.

[Shellhead]

...so it leaves the question of WHY he's waited so long to pull this particular strategy.

All those years of mucking around in vain against the DCU's superheroes, suffering one defeat after another, when he had this trump card to use all along?

What the devil was Darkseid waiting for all those years?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

DC has already shown two potential futures where Darkseid was very successful at dominating the DCU:

1. The Great Darkness Saga, though that takes place in the 30th century.

2. Rock of Ages, in a fairly near-future setting. Darkseid killed Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman and plenty of other heroes and enslaved most of humanity. Although it isn't clear if Darkseid has dominated the entire universe, there is no sign of any opposition from the Green Lantern Corps or any other off-world forces. Morrison wrote that story too, so it might be a good guideline for what to expect in Final Crisis.

[Tanjint]

yeah morrison has blatantly said rock of ages has to do with FC...perhaps more as an influence than a tie-in but I think somewhere between.

also, I think what darkseid needed was :the anti-life equation, death, and victory over the good new gods.

Number 4 can't come soon enough.

also, Have you guys actually read Jeff Parker's Marvel Adventures Avengers or Peter David's Marvel Adventures Spider-Man? That stuff is amazing.


-T

[tipo4thesoul]

And then there's more to it than that.

So Darkseid is Flaming Satan, yeah? And the world he falls to is Earth. So Earth = Hell. Or, alternatively, he's become Ioldaboath, the Prince of This World, the Demiurge of our level of creation.

OTOH, Barry Allen is the Shekinah, the Holy Spirit, Holy Wisdom descended to our fallen world to bring redemption.

So we don't just have your classic "tiny bit of good to fight a whole world full of evil" going on. We've also got dueling epistemologies: Darkseid = the binary good vs. evil of a determinist system wrapped up in a monist "I am the master of the universe"; Flash = the pluralist (many Flashes!) vision (many worlds!) of a Zoroastrian manichaeism that is transcended at higher planes (many levels!).

So that's revivifying gnosis versus utilitarian science, then.

Do we imagine that this thesis/antithesis binary will lead to a synthesizing aufhebung? I think perhaps we might.

someone is a theologian/philosopher.

[Paul McEnery]

someone is a theologian/philosopher.

Damn. What gave it away? :biggrin:

[Aubergine~!]

I don't know if this plan is either the best or most successful one Darkseid has ever come up with.

The Great Darkness Saga, literally had him taking over most of the DC Universe and he only loses in the end because of the sudden Dues Ex Machina appearance of a reborn Highfather.

He also did pretty well in Rock of Ages.

[Sean Walsh]

He also did pretty well in Rock of Ages.

Note to Darkseid: next time Rock of Ages happens, make sure Desaad is dead.

[Halcyon]

No I think you mean make sure that Batman is dead.

[Sean Walsh]

No I think you mean make sure that Batman is dead.

That's basically what I meant.

If Desaad's walking around, kill him! Because it might be Batman in disguise. And even if it's not...kill him! Desaad's a wormy little bastard.

[ducklord]

And now for a strange Final Crisis aside:

Despite my humungo comic collection, I rarely have comics-related dreams. Last night, however, I dreamed about Final Crisis. Specifically, I dreamed of a confrontation between Darkseid and the living avatar of Freedom and Liberty, the antithesis of Anti-Life: Uncle Sam.

I'd love to see that confrontation, no matter how it turned out.

Mike

[4thHorseman]

That's basically what I meant.

If Desaad's walking around, kill him! Because it might be Batman in disguise. And even if it's not...kill him! Desaad's a wormy little bastard.

The way Morrison described Desaad, I don't want him dead....

[Sean Walsh]

Despite my humungo comic collection, I rarely have comics-related dreams. Last night, however, I dreamed about Final Crisis. Specifically, I dreamed of a confrontation between Darkseid and the living avatar of Freedom and Liberty, the antithesis of Anti-Life: Uncle Sam.

I'd love to see that confrontation, no matter how it turned out.

What if it ended with Darkseid making out with Phantom Lady and the 2 of them playing basketball with Uncle Sam's severed head?

Would you like the confrontation to have happened THEN? :wink: :tongue:

[Tanjint]

this should be coming out this week. I'm excited.

-T

[Samuraixsithlord]

this should be coming out this week. I'm excited.

-T

FC #4 comes out Oct 22nd not the 15th.

[Tanjint]

Ach! Why?


-t

[theNighteye]

I think he just came up with this idea or it probably took him this long to come up with it. Darkseid is a busy alien. He probably did some research beforehand.

[Sean Walsh]

Ach! Why?

Just wander around the forum, you'll find multitudes of reasons why... :tongue: