is Emma Frost responsible for Empath being a villain?

[Monty_Cristo]

She was his teacher/mentor; more hands-on with him than the other Hellions. should she be shouldering some of the blame for his evil deeds (this Hellfire Cult stuff)?

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/149511-84850-empath_super.jpg

[MartinRedmond]

She was practically his mentor in date rape. Ie, trading bodies with Storm then getting it on with Sebastian Shaw. Switching bodies with Jean Grey and Bobby~ without their consent.

[Monty_Cristo]

She was practically his mentor in date rape. Ie, trading bodies with Storm then getting it on with Sebastian Shaw. Switching bodies with Jean Grey and Bobby~ without their consent.

i'm just thinking that she, irresponsibly, warped him and never made up for that. i mean most people would say Mystique shares some of the blame for Carol Danvers having her memories sucked out. why does Emma get a pass?

[darknessatnoon]

i'm just thinking that she, irresponsibly, warped him and never made up for that. i mean most people would say Mystique shares some of the blame for Carol Danvers having her memories sucked out. why does Emma get a pass?

Rogue did more good with Carol's powers than Carol ever could. How come Mystique never gets credit for that?

[Sijo]

Rogue did more good with Carol's powers than Carol ever could. How come Mystique never gets credit for that?
Because she never planned it that way? Rogue is a hero despite of, not because of, Mystique.

[darknessatnoon]

Because she never planned it that way? Rogue is a hero despite of, not because of, Mystique.

Of course she planned it that way.

Mystique had future knowledge with the Destiny Diaries. Rogue was just a pawn.

[AcesX1X]

If I may speak on behalf of my favorite x-character ever: Empath was a sadistic freak before he went to school with the Hellions. It's just his nature. Imagine already being somewhat depraved and then finding out you could manipulate people's emotions without lifting so much as a finger? Manny de la Rocha was like a kid in a candy shop.

Now, Emma could shoulder some of the blame....I'm sure she probably does. Especially since he's one of a handful of her original students still left alive.

However, it could also be argued that if Emma had not stepped in during Manny's developmental years, he could have turned out a lot worse. Sure, she bred him to be ruthless, uncaring, and manipulative - but those were traits he already had. All Emma did was find a way to focus them for productive means.

Empath's time with the Hellions was tumultuous. He was a thorn in everyone's side - including his classmates'. Warpath frequently looked as if he wanted to smash Manny's skull into a brick wall, and one of Empath's favorite games was playing torture-the-shy-girl on Tarot. Magma tamed him a little bit, but she's a psycho herself, so we all knew that could not last.

I hope this helps! Some dogs just need to be put down, no matter who their owner is! This is especially true for Empath.

But, I heart him anyway.

[DeniseXfrost]

^True that.
why does Emma get a pass?
She does?

[MartinRedmond]

Mystique's an aimless mongoloid without Irene's cheating walkthrough of cheating. She gets absolutely zero credit for anything except being a dingbat.

[DeadXMan]

Emma's responsible for her students either becoming evil or dead.

[worstblogever]

I would say the times where Emma "disciplined" him and temporarily psionically shut his powers off while gloating over him while wearing white dominatrix gear might have laid the seeds that have pushed him toward his current fascination with BDSM.

But he was twisted before he ever got to the Hellions. Emma tried to get him to be a team player. So did Magma, while they were an item. But alas, it just seems to be in his nature to drift towards the naughty parts of life. Doing "Kick", starting hate gangs, and the like.

I'll go for partially her fault, in any event.

[darknessatnoon]

It's not her fault at all. The roots of perversion are lain in early childhood, not during the late teen years.

Face it: he's a bad seed.

Clearly all of you who voted against Emma here oppose Xavier's Dream -- it's a dream about taking personal responsibility over your life. Projecting blame is a Magneto Fetish.

[Monty_Cristo]

I would say the times where Emma "disciplined" him and temporarily psionically shut his powers off while gloating over him while wearing white dominatrix gear might have laid the seeds that have pushed him toward his current fascination with BDSM.

But he was twisted before he ever got to the Hellions. Emma tried to get him to be a team player. So did Magma, while they were an item. But alas, it just seems to be in his nature to drift towards the naughty parts of life. Doing "Kick", starting hate gangs, and the like.

I'll go for partially her fault, in any event.


sounds right but do you think he would have turned out similarly if he had attended Xavier's? Emma definatley provided Manuel with a focus. but he was being steered towards becoming a success within an organization like the Hellfire Club. i don't remember her ever encouraging him to use his powers for anything besides manipulation. she didn't stop him from manipulating his teammates out of nobility. she was worried that he'd damage the Club's future resources. mostly, i'm asking this because i've already read this week's issue of Astonishing X-Men. :)

It's not her fault at all. The roots of perversion are lain in early childhood, not during the late teen years.

Face it: he's a bad seed.

Clearly all of you who voted against Emma here oppose Xavier's Dream -- it's a dream about taking personal responsibility over your life. Projecting blame is a Magneto Fetish.

eh, i don't buy into that bad seed nonsense. people being preprogrammed machines is a Sage-fetish. personality's as much nurture (environment, upbringing, experiences,etc) as nature (genetics), imo. Emma failed in modifying Empath's behavior; in showing him an alternative to using his powers selfishly. i think she rewarded the Hellion's darker traits because they would eventually benefit the Club.

[Silver Fox]

If I may speak on behalf of my favorite x-character ever: Empath was a sadistic freak before he went to school with the Hellions. It's just his nature. Imagine already being somewhat depraved and then finding out you could manipulate people's emotions without lifting so much as a finger? Manny de la Rocha was like a kid in a candy shop.

Now, Emma could shoulder some of the blame....I'm sure she probably does. Especially since he's one of a handful of her original students still left alive.

However, it could also be argued that if Emma had not stepped in during Manny's developmental years, he could have turned out a lot worse. Sure, she bred him to be ruthless, uncaring, and manipulative - but those were traits he already had. All Emma did was find a way to focus them for productive means.

Empath's time with the Hellions was tumultuous. He was a thorn in everyone's side - including his classmates'. Warpath frequently looked as if he wanted to smash Manny's skull into a brick wall, and one of Empath's favorite games was playing torture-the-shy-girl on Tarot. Magma tamed him a little bit, but she's a psycho herself, so we all knew that could not last.

I hope this helps! Some dogs just need to be put down, no matter who their owner is! This is especially true for Empath.

But, I heart him anyway.

I heart him, too, but everything you said is correct.

I voted Emma being partially to blame. But even if he'd ended up with a different role model, he probably would've ended up still going down a similiar path.

[Monty_Cristo]

^True that.

She does?

she has from Cyclops? what Emma did to Empath was even more insidious than what Mr.Sinister did, in some ways. Sinister made sure that Scott was never adopted so he could monitor most closely. Emma made sure that she was the only guiding force in Manuel's life. He's Emma Frost without the nuances/sophistication/ability to change. if he's a bad seed does that somehow make it less immoral for Emma to have "nurtured" his badness?

[DeniseXfrost]

she has from Cyclops? what Emma did to Empath was even more insidious than what Mr.Sinister did, in some ways. Sinister made sure that Scott was never adopted so he could monitor most closely. Emma made sure that she was the only guiding force in Manuel's life. He's Emma Frost without the nuances/sophistication/ability to change. if he's a bad seed does that somehow make it less immoral for Emma to have "nurtured" his badness?
Ughh ok......

[ThreeDays]

eh, i don't buy into that bad seed nonsense. people being preprogrammed machines is a Sage-fetish. personality's as much nurture (environment, upbringing, experiences,etc) as nature (genetics), imo.

I'm not sure that darknessatnoon is disputing that. My take of the argument you replied to is that the role of nurture is largely layed in earlier childhood rather than later childhood (at nearly legal adult status), at the time Emma got ahold of him. Which is more or less true.

Of course one's environment never stops influencing them, but as far as we know, Emma has no responsibility for Manuel's formative years.

That said, she sure didn't seem to make much effort to steer him down a better path when he was in her care.

[HellFrost]

I really don't think there's anyone to blame but the psionic control that Maddie is holding him under. I agree with AcesX1X about his cruelty and manipulation being in his own nature and that Emma helped to drive all that emotion into a specific direction and he's better for it. He really just seems to be under his own power. I figure that Maddie is basically reflecting it back at him.

Manuel is not one to be bound. He loves power. He get's off on power, so to speak. He's definitely being controlled.

[SayOcean]

Yah I dont think She is responsible for Empath being a villain, Manny was already slightly psycho before he even joined the hellions. She was really active in Firestars life and she turned into an Avenger, so I doubt that because she was hanging out with Empath caused him to be bad, he seems to do the thing he wants to do

[drwho]

empath is all over the place one minute he is good the next he is evil. i think his powers just screw him up so he cant think straight and flip flops every once in awhile.

[SayOcean]

the only example of empath being good is his job with xcorp, but i haven read issues with him working there, so i wouldnt be able to say if he was really good or just being himself

and how is magma a psycho??

[Jack Flash]

I would kill kittens if Roulette shows up and is like "Hay! I thought ya'll knew!"

[Silver Fox]

I would kill kittens if Roulette shows up and is like "Hay! I thought ya'll knew!"

Would killing kittens be a sign of joy or despair?

[AcesX1X]

the only example of empath being good is his job with xcorp, but i haven read issues with him working there, so i wouldnt be able to say if he was really good or just being himself

and how is magma a psycho??

She just likes to get really angry and cause lots of property damage and crash planes out of the sky.

...sometimes hurl lava at her friends for backtalk....

I don't know if that qualifies as a true psycho or not, but I love her attitude!

[Monty_Cristo]

Yah I dont think She is responsible for Empath being a villain, Manny was already slightly psycho before he even joined the hellions.

granted. but maybe he would have just become a corrupt politician; as opposed to being involved with the Hellfire Club. Emma trained him to abuse his powers, dressed him up in a costume, and introduced him to the x-verse-proper. there are characters who have his powerset that never became involved in supervillainy.

Yah I dont think She is responsible for Empath being a villain, Manny was already slightly psycho before he even joined the hellions. She was really active in Firestars life and she turned into an Avenger, so I doubt that because she was hanging out with Empath caused him to be bad, he seems to do the thing he wants to do

Angel didn't come from a broken home, did she? she had others to turn to. as far as i can remember, Empath's family went from being "royalty" to being impoverished. the Hellfire Club basically replaced his family.

[darknessatnoon]

granted. but maybe he would have just become a corrupt politician; as opposed to being involved with the Hellfire Club. Emma trained him to abuse his powers, dressed him up in a costume, and introduced him to the x-verse-proper. there are characters who have his powerset that never became involved in supervillainy.


At least she gave him training. On his own, he'd have become a menace. I'm sure of it! Now he's got Red Queen to keep him in line.

[Monty_Cristo]

At least she gave him training. On his own, he'd have become a menace. I'm sure of it! Now he's got Red Queen to keep him in line.

when he was "on his own," he was a member of X-Corp.

[darknessatnoon]

when he was "on his own," he was a member of X-Corp.

So? I'm sure he was plenty sadistic back then, too. Most of it wasn't on panel since the Valle Soledad offices of X-Corps only got a little bit of panel time in X-Treme X-Men.

[Monty_Cristo]

So? I'm sure he was plenty sadistic back then, too. Most of it wasn't on panel since the Valle Soledad offices of X-Corps only got a little bit of panel time in X-Treme X-Men.

yes, and Emma eats babies when we don't see her on-panel.

[HellFrost]

Wasn't it Empath who came on behalf of the X-Men to calm her down from her heartbroken induced beserker rage? He really doesn't come off as evil to me. Maybe a bit gray, but not evil. I still think he's being mind controlled.

[darknessatnoon]

now he's Tyler Durden. Are you saying Tyler Durden is evil?

[The Lucky One]

The author of Kid Dynamo had a few of the New Mutants discuss Empath after a disastrous dance at the Massachusetts Academy. I've always thought it summed up the Empath/Emma Frost situation pretty well:

""I'm surprised," I said. "That any of you even considered going to a dance at the Academy, if you feel so strongly about Em -- Manuel."
"Most of them are okay," said Illyana. "Except for Manuel. I think _everybody_ is his enemy."
The microwave beeped and I took out my boiling cocoa. It was just the right temperature. "I think," I said. "I think -- he's nuts."
"No sh*t, Sherlock," said Doug.
"I'm serious, Doug," I snapped.
"Well, so am I," he said.
"Yeah, right," I said. "Listen -- I knew him when he was just a kid. He was the nicest little kid. He's been through so much. And... his power leaves him wide open to everyone around him."
Illyana looked gloomy. "I think some powers are just evil."
"I don't hold with labeling an object or an ability as good or evil," said Magneto. He was standing in the doorway to the kitchen, dressed in a dark purple bathrobe over pajamas and slippers. On him it looked suave and sophisticated. "Excuse me, I heard voices and thought to investigate," he added.
Doug indicated a chair. "Join the club," he said.
Magneto's mouth quirked and he went over to the stove and turned on the burner underneath the kettle.
"Since I'm up, I'll have some herbal tea," he said and came over to sit next to me. "I take it you were discussing Empath?"
Why did he always have to single me out, I thought. "Yeah," I said, and almost found myself sobbing. "He's -- sick, not evil."
"Charles left notes, speculations on how Empath's power functioned," Magneto said. "It's parapsychic, not true psi. He influences brain waves and hormonal secretions. Charles said he did not know how much or how little Empath was influenced by the emotions of those around him."
"Something Manuelito said makes me think he's quite at the mercy of that," I said.
"Did you ever think," said Illyana, "That maybe some mutant powers aren't a good idea -- an evolutionary dead end?" She was still and I realized that somehow this was a very important question to her.
"A power is not good or bad of itself," said Magneto. "Evolution is a blind man feeling his way along, trying many routes. Some are... less advantageous than others -- but that does not mean good or bad in an absolute sense."
"All well and good," said Illyana. "But what if using a power corrupts you, does bad things to your mind?"
"Save in special cases, that is hard to prove," he replied. "It seems to rest more on the wielder's environment. Take for instance, Charles and the White Queen -- both gifted with telepathy, but what a difference in philosophy and efforts."
"But what if the more Empath uses his power, the more he loses touch with reality?" said Doug, for once without the slightest trace of humor.
Magneto gave him a tired smile. "One would hope his teacher would realize this and take steps," he said.
"It's more her style to use," said Illyana.
"You are correct," he said reluctantly. "If it makes Empath a better tool if he is insane, insane he will stay."
"How can you let that happen?" I practically cried out.
"What can I do, Jessica?" Magneto said. "Bring him into this school? I do not have Charles's ability to treat the emotional ills of my students as it is -- and I think Empath's problems would challenge Charles. And were I to try, I have doubt my present students might survive his presence."
"I wouldn't stay if he joined," said Doug. "No offense, Jess -- I couldn't trust him -- ever."
"But don't you see that _trust_ is what he needs," I said. "If he is affected by emotions around him, how will he ever be sane if all he feels is distrust?"
"You see what I mean by a bad power?" said Illyana.
"Trust may be what he needs, Jessica," said Magneto to me. "But I dare not offer it, lest we suffer for it."

-D

[SayOcean]

when was Empath's family shown to be impoverished?

and as for him being okay on his own, it wasnt like teenaged mutants were accepted at that time...he wasnt recruited by xavier...who knows what wouldve happened if he hadnt had the realative protection of the hellfire club

[Monty_Cristo]

when was Empath's family shown to be impoverished?

http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/e/empath.htm

The author of Kid Dynamo had a few of the New Mutants discuss Empath after a disastrous dance at the Massachusetts Academy. I've always thought it summed up the Empath/Emma Frost situation pretty well:

""I'm surprised," I said. "That any of you even considered going to a dance at the Academy, if you feel so strongly about Em -- Manuel."
"Most of them are okay," said Illyana. "Except for Manuel. I think _everybody_ is his enemy."
The microwave beeped and I took out my boiling cocoa. It was just the right temperature. "I think," I said. "I think -- he's nuts."
"No sh*t, Sherlock," said Doug.
"I'm serious, Doug," I snapped.
"Well, so am I," he said.
"Yeah, right," I said. "Listen -- I knew him when he was just a kid. He was the nicest little kid. He's been through so much. And... his power leaves him wide open to everyone around him."
Illyana looked gloomy. "I think some powers are just evil."
"I don't hold with labeling an object or an ability as good or evil," said Magneto. He was standing in the doorway to the kitchen, dressed in a dark purple bathrobe over pajamas and slippers. On him it looked suave and sophisticated. "Excuse me, I heard voices and thought to investigate," he added.
Doug indicated a chair. "Join the club," he said.
Magneto's mouth quirked and he went over to the stove and turned on the burner underneath the kettle.
"Since I'm up, I'll have some herbal tea," he said and came over to sit next to me. "I take it you were discussing Empath?"
Why did he always have to single me out, I thought. "Yeah," I said, and almost found myself sobbing. "He's -- sick, not evil."
"Charles left notes, speculations on how Empath's power functioned," Magneto said. "It's parapsychic, not true psi. He influences brain waves and hormonal secretions. Charles said he did not know how much or how little Empath was influenced by the emotions of those around him."
"Something Manuelito said makes me think he's quite at the mercy of that," I said.
"Did you ever think," said Illyana, "That maybe some mutant powers aren't a good idea -- an evolutionary dead end?" She was still and I realized that somehow this was a very important question to her.
"A power is not good or bad of itself," said Magneto. "Evolution is a blind man feeling his way along, trying many routes. Some are... less advantageous than others -- but that does not mean good or bad in an absolute sense."
"All well and good," said Illyana. "But what if using a power corrupts you, does bad things to your mind?"
"Save in special cases, that is hard to prove," he replied. "It seems to rest more on the wielder's environment. Take for instance, Charles and the White Queen -- both gifted with telepathy, but what a difference in philosophy and efforts."
"But what if the more Empath uses his power, the more he loses touch with reality?" said Doug, for once without the slightest trace of humor.
Magneto gave him a tired smile. "One would hope his teacher would realize this and take steps," he said.
"It's more her style to use," said Illyana.
"You are correct," he said reluctantly. "If it makes Empath a better tool if he is insane, insane he will stay."
"How can you let that happen?" I practically cried out.
"What can I do, Jessica?" Magneto said. "Bring him into this school? I do not have Charles's ability to treat the emotional ills of my students as it is -- and I think Empath's problems would challenge Charles. And were I to try, I have doubt my present students might survive his presence."
"I wouldn't stay if he joined," said Doug. "No offense, Jess -- I couldn't trust him -- ever."
"But don't you see that _trust_ is what he needs," I said. "If he is affected by emotions around him, how will he ever be sane if all he feels is distrust?"
"You see what I mean by a bad power?" said Illyana.
"Trust may be what he needs, Jessica," said Magneto to me. "But I dare not offer it, lest we suffer for it."

-D

thanks for posting this! it's quite interesting. :)

[AcesX1X]

Monty_Cristo,

May I ask why you started this thread?

You seemed to want to discuss whether or not Emma was responsible for Manny's nature in your first post, yet judging from your responses to people who have replied to you, it seems you had already made your decision about Emma and Empath before you asked....making this entire thread seem invalid.

So, what is the point of all this?

[HellFrost]

The author of Kid Dynamo had a few of the New Mutants discuss Empath after a disastrous dance at the Massachusetts Academy. I've always thought it summed up the Empath/Emma Frost situation pretty well:

""I'm surprised," I said. "That any of you even considered going to a dance at the Academy, if you feel so strongly about Em -- Manuel."
"Most of them are okay," said Illyana. "Except for Manuel. I think _everybody_ is his enemy."
The microwave beeped and I took out my boiling cocoa. It was just the right temperature. "I think," I said. "I think -- he's nuts."
"No sh*t, Sherlock," said Doug.
"I'm serious, Doug," I snapped.
"Well, so am I," he said.
"Yeah, right," I said. "Listen -- I knew him when he was just a kid. He was the nicest little kid. He's been through so much. And... his power leaves him wide open to everyone around him."
Illyana looked gloomy. "I think some powers are just evil."
"I don't hold with labeling an object or an ability as good or evil," said Magneto. He was standing in the doorway to the kitchen, dressed in a dark purple bathrobe over pajamas and slippers. On him it looked suave and sophisticated. "Excuse me, I heard voices and thought to investigate," he added.
Doug indicated a chair. "Join the club," he said.
Magneto's mouth quirked and he went over to the stove and turned on the burner underneath the kettle.
"Since I'm up, I'll have some herbal tea," he said and came over to sit next to me. "I take it you were discussing Empath?"
Why did he always have to single me out, I thought. "Yeah," I said, and almost found myself sobbing. "He's -- sick, not evil."
"Charles left notes, speculations on how Empath's power functioned," Magneto said. "It's parapsychic, not true psi. He influences brain waves and hormonal secretions. Charles said he did not know how much or how little Empath was influenced by the emotions of those around him."
"Something Manuelito said makes me think he's quite at the mercy of that," I said.
"Did you ever think," said Illyana, "That maybe some mutant powers aren't a good idea -- an evolutionary dead end?" She was still and I realized that somehow this was a very important question to her.
"A power is not good or bad of itself," said Magneto. "Evolution is a blind man feeling his way along, trying many routes. Some are... less advantageous than others -- but that does not mean good or bad in an absolute sense."
"All well and good," said Illyana. "But what if using a power corrupts you, does bad things to your mind?"
"Save in special cases, that is hard to prove," he replied. "It seems to rest more on the wielder's environment. Take for instance, Charles and the White Queen -- both gifted with telepathy, but what a difference in philosophy and efforts."
"But what if the more Empath uses his power, the more he loses touch with reality?" said Doug, for once without the slightest trace of humor.
Magneto gave him a tired smile. "One would hope his teacher would realize this and take steps," he said.
"It's more her style to use," said Illyana.
"You are correct," he said reluctantly. "If it makes Empath a better tool if he is insane, insane he will stay."
"How can you let that happen?" I practically cried out.
"What can I do, Jessica?" Magneto said. "Bring him into this school? I do not have Charles's ability to treat the emotional ills of my students as it is -- and I think Empath's problems would challenge Charles. And were I to try, I have doubt my present students might survive his presence."
"I wouldn't stay if he joined," said Doug. "No offense, Jess -- I couldn't trust him -- ever."
"But don't you see that _trust_ is what he needs," I said. "If he is affected by emotions around him, how will he ever be sane if all he feels is distrust?"
"You see what I mean by a bad power?" said Illyana.
"Trust may be what he needs, Jessica," said Magneto to me. "But I dare not offer it, lest we suffer for it."

-D

This was truly fascinating. Thank you. This is a good example in showing that there are too many variables to really tell what makes Manuel so corrupt seeming at times.

[SayOcean]

@monty: its not like I dont belive you but that site always has that he helped out Thunderbird....which im sure they meant warpath but....come on, he didnt seem like he was improvished neither did it come up on any of the issues i read...i may have missed one though

[Monty_Cristo]

@monty: its not like I dont belive you but that site always has that he helped out Thunderbird....which im sure they meant warpath but....come on, he didnt seem like he was improvished neither did it come up on any of the issues i read...i may have missed one though

Warpath used to be called Thunderbird (when he was a hellion). trust me on this; his dad blew the family fortune. i think Empath talks about it more in the issue where Magik transports him to Limbo and the New Mutants take turns scaring him. i didn't make it up. that site i sent you to used the info from the official marvel handbook.

[Monty_Cristo]

Monty_Cristo,

May I ask why you started this thread?

because i like the character Empath and wanted to talk about him.

You seemed to want to discuss whether or not Emma was responsible for Manny's nature in your first post, yet judging from your responses to people who have replied to you, it seems you had already made your decision about Emma and Empath before you asked....making this entire thread seem invalid.


invalid because i don't agree with you? am i not allowed to have an opinion? i did include a poll. and not all of the people who disagreed w/ me, gave reasons. seriously, how rude is it to label someone's thread invalid? why not just keep it to yourself?

[worstblogever]

Uncanny X-Men #502 hit stands, and I think it further illustrates why Empath's S&M side was strongly influenced by Emma Frost.

[Monty_Cristo]

Uncanny X-Men #502 hit stands, and I think it further illustrates why Empath's S&M side was strongly influenced by Emma Frost.

i still want to know who this Red Queen freak is. what's her fascination with Emma about?

[worstblogever]

i still want to know who this Red Queen freak is. what's her fascination with Emma about?

Probably some kind of alpha female thing.

[darknessatnoon]

i still want to know who this Red Queen freak is. what's her fascination with Emma about?

It's just what happens when you put two queens in the same vicinity: it's like two poison snakes in a pit.

[Monty_Cristo]

It's just what happens when you put two queens in the same vicinity: it's like two poison snakes in a pit.

for her sake, i hope she has a diamond-proof face.

[SayOcean]

Warpath used to be called Thunderbird (when he was a hellion). trust me on this; his dad blew the family fortune. i think Empath talks about it more in the issue where Magik transports him to Limbo and the New Mutants take turns scaring him. i didn't make it up. that site i sent you to used the info from the official marvel handbook. I know he used to be called thunderbird....but most sites list him as Thunderbird II

[x_goalkeeper]

At least partially at fault for Empath's villainy. Something about "no bad students, only bad teachers". Of course Emma's changed since then but the fault remains nevertheless.