Hercules' sexuality

[Sunlitspire]

I was reading Incredible Hercules the other day and it stuck me how much of his sexual history has been ignored in the past.

Hercules in the greek myths is, like alot of the greek gods bisexual and throughout the myths has a massive number of male lovers (Iolaus, Nestor, Hylas and Admetus to name a few).

Now I understand that in the past certain attutudes to sexual orientation may have prevented Marvel from touching on this matter. Also understanding Greek attitudes to gay sex, I can't state how much I don't want this to involve Amadeus Cho.

But come on Marvel we are living in an age where gay and bisexual people are gaining greater acceptance, so it wouldn't hurt too much to touch upon that aspect of Herc.

Given that Greg Pak and Fred Van Lante are showing alot of Herc's back history, I do hope that we might find that he isn't the straightest God in the heavens.

[Beast]

The comic characters and their basis on the mythological stories of the character are often at odds.

Marvel's Thor is a perfect example of how not every tale in mythology is meant to be true or accurate.

[Joe Acro]

Given that Greg Pak and Fred Van Lante are showing alot of Herc's back history, I do hope that we might find that he isn't the straightest God in the heavens.
They did touch on his affection for Hylas, I believe.

But no modern relationships, as far as I know.

[Camron Amaya]

I seriosly do not want to see Herc sticking it in Cho's booty. Let "realism" suffer.

[Nyssane]

In She-Hulk, he got really mad when the villain insinuated that Hercules slept with men. So I don't see him "coming out" as bisexual any time soon.

[bad trotsky]

In She-Hulk, he got really mad when the villain insinuated that Hercules slept with men. So I don't see him "coming out" as bisexual any time soon.

Yeah in greek myth he sleeps with anything. In marvel he sleeps with anything thats female. He is a big male slut regardless, but yeah in marvel hes strait. I think it would be cool if they hinted it was not always thus.

Edit: Herc would be concerned with what is considered manly. In the days of old it would not be considered unmanly to be bi sexual. Now it is. So I can see a story there lol.

[Mississippienne]

Yeah, that's a good point. Herc could've just changed with the times -- in ancient Greece he could be 'all man' and still sleep around with comely young things, but in the modern era he sticks to women. The ancient Greeks also had a somewhat more complicated concept of homosexuality than we do -- male pairs were supposed to consist of an older male who was the 'active' partner and a younger male who was the 'passive' partner. Any mixing up of these roles really made them uncomfortable. If you were the older, dominant partner but you took the 'passive' role, it was considered shameful. A lot of modern-day cultures actually still have this concept, in fact. It's 'not gay' unless you're on the bottom, etc.

[40yearoldnovafan]

If Marvel wants to see its readership plummet, then I guess they would deal with this in the manner you want.

Let's be real, people. Marvel is not stupid. Could you imagine what would happen if Marvel decided Spiderman, Captain America, Ironman, Thor, etc as gay? There goes your readership.

As an American, I do not judge what goes on in other peoples homes or lives. I do not want people telling me what I should or should not do in my home. And even though a lot of Americans are accepting of homosexuality, I do not think the majority of the male comic reading audience would want to see a major character like Hercules showing his love for the same sex. Let's be real. Men are far far far more accepting of women loving women (and actually beg for it) than we are of man love.

As individuals, I know we love to see ourselves represented. But financial dictates this is not going to happen.

Jimmy

[Nite-Wing]

If Marvel wants to see its readership plummet, then I guess they would deal with this in the manner you want.

Let's be real, people. Marvel is not stupid. Could you imagine what would happen if Marvel decided Spiderman, Captain America, Ironman, Thor, etc as gay? There goes your readership.

As an American, I do not judge what goes on in other peoples homes or lives. I do not want people telling me what I should or should not do in my home. And even though a lot of Americans are accepting of homosexuality, I do not think the majority of the male comic reading audience would want to see a major character like Hercules showing his love for the same sex. Let's be real. Men are far far far more accepting of women loving women (and actually beg for it) than we are of man love.

As individuals, I know we love to see ourselves represented. But financial dictates this is not going to happen.

Jimmy

I can tell you haven't read the Authority

[Cthulhudrew]

I'm not actually aware of any mythology involving Hercules that makes mention of him having any male lovers. Admittedly, it's been a long while since I've read any of it- and when I was big into Greek mythology I was much younger, and I don't believe that sort of fare was likely considered appropriate then- so I'm really just curious as to where this information comes from.

I do know of some references here and there to the bisexual/homosexual behavior of several Greek mythological figures (Achilles, for one), and I think this exploration of Greek sexuality in all its forms is one that has become quite chic in the past decade or two- but nothing regarding Hercules. Anything you could point me to that discusses the matter, out of academic curiosity?

Back OT, Hercules in the comics has been portrayed as quite the womanizer. No hints or suggestions of bisexuality at all that I've ever seen. A lot of that can certainly be attributed to fears of violating long-held "conventional mores", but I think if the writers were to explore Hercules the character as bisexual now, after his MU history, it would be a real 180 degree turn. Not because I think there's anything wrong with it, but because his overwhelming heterosexuality and lack of bisexuality/homosexuality has been such a big part of his development.

If it were to be explored with other characters- say, Ares (for example, to follow the idea of characters with more liberal Ancient Greek values/mores), it wouldn't be as big a deal. Ares' sexuality hasn't been a big part of his character's history. Whereas it would almost come across as a retcon if applied to Hercules.

Even a Rock Hudson-esque "He was hiding it" sort of approach wouldn't work too well, in Herc's case IMO, because I can't see Hercules- with the personality he's been written with for years- as being even remotely closeted. He rarely cares what anyone else thinks. Whereas- again- for a different sort of character, it might work (such as Roger "the Destroyer" Aubrey).

[RedRonin]

I seriosly do not want to see Herc sticking it in Cho's booty. Let "realism" suffer.
Sounds like a good story to me.

Except you're over exaggerating since I far as I know Cho isn't gay. But if they are going to rely heavly on greek mythology and Herc did have male lovers in greek mythology (admitily I'm not sure) then I don't see any reason they couldn't at least hint at it.

[AdamYJ]

You also have to remember that the interpretations of the stories change with time. When I first read these Greek myths, Iolaus and Hylas didn't seem like anything more than sidekicks to be honest (granted, I was a kid and such things weren't outright mentioned in the versions I was reading).

Anyway, Hercules is fine the way he is. I mean, for the most part he's already cooler than Thor, so why mess with it? :biggrin:

[Joe Acro]

I do know of some references here and there to the bisexual/homosexual behavior of several Greek mythological figures (Achilles, for one), and I think this exploration of Greek sexuality in all its forms is one that has become quite chic in the past decade or two- but nothing regarding Hercules. Anything you could point me to that discusses the matter, out of academic curiosity?
Wiki does a good job of detailing things:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracles#Heracles.27_eromenoi

Mississippienne, however, does have a point. The mentality of that society may not have seen that as homosexuality and, since he largely hangs out in the US where that practice isn't... uh... practiced, he may simply no longer have male lovers.

[Elegance Liberty]

The comic characters and their basis on the mythological stories of the character are often at odds.

Marvel's Thor is a perfect example of how not every tale in mythology is meant to be true or accurate.

QFT.

Granted, the Fraction one-shots for 'Thor' that are rooted more towards the actual myths are fairly accurate, but still.

[B. Kuwanger]

It's interesting on one hand that in his solo series, Herc occasionally disputes legend. Makes sense, and it's funny to think about tales being spread about this extremely masculine superhero sleeping with all these other guys.

But it's very possible that he'd lie about a few things.

[mgs]

if that's his sexual preference in mythology, then it should be so when he's a Marvel character as well.

[Cthulhudrew]

Mississippienne, however, does have a point. The mentality of that society may not have seen that as homosexuality and, since he largely hangs out in the US where that practice isn't... uh... practiced, he may simply no longer have male lovers.

It just doesn't seem in keeping with the character of the comic Hercules as he's been portrayed, though. He's hardly the type to bother with convention, and he's such a braggart and boaster that it's not like he'd be keeping secrets from people.

I can easily see such a revelation with many characters in the MU, but IMO this comic Hercules has diverged from the conception of a bisexual mythological Hercules for it to be a good fit.

[B. Kuwanger]

Hey, I know plenty of middle aged guys that won't admit to having had jheri curls. Imagine thousands of years go by, and you're rolling with the likes of Eros and Thor and going against guys like Doom and Thanos.

[Cthulhudrew]

Hey, I know plenty of middle aged guys that won't admit to having had jheri curls. Imagine thousands of years go by, and you're rolling with the likes of Eros and Thor and going against guys like Doom and Thanos.

Eh. Like I said, it just doesn't seem like Hercules to me. If Marvel were to write a story about Eros having a male lover, I wouldn't flinch; even though he's been portrayed as a lothario, it would fit with his general hedonistic attitude.

[40yearoldnovafan]

I can tell you haven't read the Authority
Yes, yes I have. And I have enjoyed it. But where is it in comparison to Marvel's titles and fan appreciation. You know as well as I that there are tons of fans who will not read it because of Midnighter and Apollo. Marvel is not Wildstorm.

And I do not read any Wildstorm titles now because they have been screwed up by their companies.

[Joe Acro]

It just doesn't seem in keeping with the character of the comic Hercules as he's been portrayed, though. He's hardly the type to bother with convention, and he's such a braggart and boaster that it's not like he'd be keeping secrets from people.

I can easily see such a revelation with many characters in the MU, but IMO this comic Hercules has diverged from the conception of a bisexual mythological Hercules for it to be a good fit.
They did mention his affection for Hylas in the comic, however. So, it hasn't diverged too far for such a revelation to still make sense.

And perhaps his lack of regard to convention developed over time. He still respected it to a certain degree in Ancient Greece, but as time has gone on, he pretty much stopped.

[Camron Amaya]

Sounds like a good story to me.

Except you're over exaggerating since I far as I know Cho isn't gay. But if they are going to rely heavly on greek mythology and Herc did have male lovers in greek mythology (admitily I'm not sure) then I don't see any reason they couldn't at least hint at it.


I was talking about fact of old Greek dudes having sex with their young boy pupils :frown:

[Ptrvc]

Out of all the misinterpretations of Mythology in the Marvel Universe, this is possibly the last one that anyone should bother trying to fix.

I'd rather they fix Loki's character to be more complex then "The God of Evil!"

[Capt USA]

Well according to most people, sexual orientation is NOT a choice, you are either hetero or homo with an extremely small percentage being "deviant", for the record assume that Hercules is not deviant, and is probably at the core of his being hetero.

In a time period where 'swinging' was considered normal it isn't hard to believe that a person would take to being 'bi', afterall gay men have slept with women all the time even though it's against their own professed nature. Factor in Hercules long life span and his time period and it's not unrealistic to expect him to have had some type of male lovers, but it's probably not his prefered method of experiencing sex. In a time period where it's not as forgiving to being bi, and if you consider that it's not his preferred nature, then it's not hard to imagine that hy isn't going to take up being bi again.

[tjarvis]

Could it be true? Sure, it fits with the conventions of his time period.

Does it add anything to the character? Not really. It would be a pretty worthless thing to throw out there, since it doesn't open up any new opportunities. Revealing Herc to be bi seems more like shock for shock's sake storytelling.

[Leocomix]

Bisexuality is one thing but pedophily is a big button. Most of these male lovers of Greek myth were underage. So a big ix-nay on any suggestion to match Herc to his legend. I'm sure the writers know about catamites since they shwed a big familiarity with th emyths but I doubt modern readers want to know.

[SayOcean]

I wouldnt imagine them all to be underage, maybe 17 or 18 which isnt that bad considering Angel/Husk, WOlverine/everyone else. I think it would be fun to have a herc/guy friendship like wolvy does with his lil ho's

and herc is immortal, why would he care about what a society thats barely 500 years old thinks

[Adamantium_Avatar]

Bisexuality is one thing but pedophily is a big button. Most of these male lovers of Greek myth were underage. So a big ix-nay on any suggestion to match Herc to his legend. I'm sure the writers know about catamites since they shwed a big familiarity with th emyths but I doubt modern readers want to know.

They were under-age according to todays standards.. Not for back then!

Today Romeo would be on the sex-offenders register for having sex with Juliet...

Times, laws and attitudes change.

[Sunlitspire]

Actually, the average age of the younger participant in greek society was usually between 16 to 18, alot like in modern day.

As for for Herc's sexual preference, in the greek myths he actually out competed Apollo for the number of male lovers (and thats saying something). So I doubt he was doing it out of social expectations.

The question of belief's effect on Herc is a very interesting point though. It would raise the question of how much his personality is affected by expectation. But even today, a large number of people study Greek history and religion. Anyone who had studied classical greece would know and believe that Herc was bisexual.

I wouldn't want it to be a massive deal if Herc did turn out to be bi (its not like I want a double page 'action' spread). Just an off the cuff comment would be nice about an ex would be nice (and it is cool he mentioned Hylas).

I guess if you wanted an explaination for why he hadn't mentioned it before, you could either say that as gay culture became more mainstream that part of Herc begins to reassert itself. Or you could consider the fact that Herc has lived through entire ages, where saying you were bi or gay would get you killed horribly and painfully. If that was the case even a God would be a little hesitant about coming out.

Part of the reason I started this thread came down to me watching 300 and realising how much gay history has been white washed. It may not be the most important part of mythology, but as a gay person it is important to me (heck I wouldn't mind if Ares turned out to be bi and herc was kept straight).

[Mississippienne]

Part of the reason I started this thread came down to me watching 300 and realising how much gay history has been white washed. It may not be the most important part of mythology, but as a gay person it is important to me (heck I wouldn't mind if Ares turned out to be bi and herc was kept straight).

LOL, actually that'd be pretty awesome. Maybe that's how Herc got his rep all those centuries ago. Like there's a flashback to an ancient Greek palace and we see Ares getting dressed while some sloe-eyed young prince lays in bed.

PRINCE: C'mon, you can stay the night. Please? When can I see you again?
ARES: Uh, I'll get back to you.
PRINCE: Can't you at least tell me your name?
ARES: *shifty-eyes* I'm.... Hercules.
PRINCE: *gasps* Really?!
ARES: Sure, kid. Whatever.

[Leocomix]

So that can't be done with a chareacter living in our current society. Even telling stories in a ancient Greece setting would unsettle many people. I am a litterature student but I can just imagine how the bible belt republican will act: he will want to send the store owner to prison.

[Expletive Deleted]

Amusingly enough, this is going to come up (at least to a limited extent) in the next storyline.

The Amazons make certain erroneous assumptions about Herc and Amadeus's relationship. Hijinks ensue.

[pharoahe22]

Amusingly enough, this is going to come up (at least to a limited extent) in the next storyline.

The Amazons make certain erroneous assumptions about Herc and Amadeus's relationship. Hijinks ensue.

You beat me to it...I was just about to post this lol

[2-4-5_Trioxin]

Me personally, I never cared about a characters sexuality. It doesnt matter and its injecting to much real life into the comic. And anytime its used its almost always done just for attention and to turn heads. Its a gimmick more or less and not a good one at that.

The only exception is when its done well like in preacher for instance, poor star getting raped and messing him up sexually was the one and only instance I ever saw a characters sexual preferences actually be a part of that character and not just a excuse to say "hey were gay friendly, see we got gay characters so were hip right?"

Its just plain silly and stupid to care whether a character is gay or whatever.

[chaosakita]

If Marvel wants to see its readership plummet, then I guess they would deal with this in the manner you want.

Let's be real, people. Marvel is not stupid. Could you imagine what would happen if Marvel decided Spiderman, Captain America, Ironman, Thor, etc as gay? There goes your readership.

As an American, I do not judge what goes on in other peoples homes or lives. I do not want people telling me what I should or should not do in my home. And even though a lot of Americans are accepting of homosexuality, I do not think the majority of the male comic reading audience would want to see a major character like Hercules showing his love for the same sex. Let's be real. Men are far far far more accepting of women loving women (and actually beg for it) than we are of man love.

As individuals, I know we love to see ourselves represented. But financial dictates this is not going to happen.

Jimmy

What? The subtext hasn't made them all gay already????

[Camron Amaya]

Hahah they mention the "eromenos" relationship between herc and cho in the new issue..

[Greg Anderson]

Me personally, I never cared about a characters sexuality. It doesnt matter and its injecting to much real life into the comic. And anytime its used its almost always done just for attention and to turn heads. Its a gimmick more or less and not a good one at that.

The only exception is when its done well like in preacher for instance, poor star getting raped and messing him up sexually was the one and only instance I ever saw a characters sexual preferences actually be a part of that character and not just a excuse to say "hey were gay friendly, see we got gay characters so were hip right?"

Its just plain silly and stupid to care whether a character is gay or whatever.

Your post is understandable, but why can't a character have a gay relationship? It's only surprising if the reader finds it surprising. People say they don't care about a character's sexual orientation and don't like to see it ham-fisted into their reading, but readers are ham-fisted with straight couples all the time.

[Greg Anderson]

Hahah they mention the "eromenos" relationship between herc and cho in the new issue..

What exactly was said?

[Deus ex Chris]

Its just plain silly and stupid to care whether a character is gay or whatever.
Really? Is it silly to want female characters? Black ones?

[Greg Anderson]

LOL, actually that'd be pretty awesome. Maybe that's how Herc got his rep all those centuries ago. Like there's a flashback to an ancient Greek palace and we see Ares getting dressed while some sloe-eyed young prince lays in bed.

PRINCE: C'mon, you can stay the night. Please? When can I see you again?
ARES: Uh, I'll get back to you.
PRINCE: Can't you at least tell me your name?
ARES: *shifty-eyes* I'm.... Hercules.
PRINCE: *gasps* Really?!
ARES: Sure, kid. Whatever.

Dude, that's hilarious. :biggrin:

[jarrod]

C'mon... it's NO BIG DEAL. Even Wolverine's bisexual. :biggrin:

[Greg Anderson]

C'mon... it's NO BIG DEAL. Even Wolverine's bisexual. :biggrin:

Heh heh, I actually would not be surprised.

[Camron Amaya]

What exactly was said?

Basicly the Amazons are assuming Cho is Hercules's eromenos, and he says "I've seen those posts on the internet, and let me tell you from th source IT'S NOT TRUE!"

The Amazon says "its pretty normal in Olympus", Cho says "I'ts pretty illigeal in Arizona!", We're just friends!"

And everyone else through out the book refers to him as Hercules's eromenos lmao

[Greg Anderson]

Basicly the Amazons are assuming Cho is Hercules's eromenos, and he says "I've seen those posts on the internet, and let me tell you from th source IT'S NOT TRUE!"

The Amazon says "its pretty normal in Olympus", Cho says "I'ts pretty illigeal in Arizona!", We're just friends!"

And everyone else through out the book refers to him as Hercules's eromenos lmao

Aww man, that is too funny! I'm mad I dropped this book, I was enjoying ti so damn much. But freakin' tie-ins and events started to piss me off. :mad:

[Guest_1001]

Really? Is it silly to want female characters? Black ones?

It's silly to make their gender or race (and, in this case, sexuality) dictate who that character is. I think that's the point being made.

[Deus ex Chris]

It's silly to make their gender or race (and, in this case, sexuality) dictate who that character is. I think that's the point being made.
I think that's what his point is disguised as, but comments like "it's injecting too much real life into the comics" and "it's just plain silly and stupid to care whether a character is gay or whatever" make me think there's another point being made. I'd like clarification.

[rpriske]

I think the clairification is that you have people who are homophobic trying to hide behind the 'other people wouldn't like it' wall.

Speak for yourself, folks. I am a heterosexual male, 40 years old and the idea of gay characters doesn't bother me in the least. As a matter of fact, they have been woefully underrepresented thus far.


I haven't read the new Herc yet (it is waiting for me at home), but I am assuming the 'illegal in Arizona' comment is referring to Cho's age, not his gender.

[Scavenger]

I haven't read the new Herc yet (it is waiting for me at home), but I am assuming the 'illegal in Arizona' comment is referring to Cho's age, not his gender.

I suppose it's open to interpretation. I didn't take it as an age comment.

[Grazzt]

I suppose it's open to interpretation. I didn't take it as an age comment.

Given that the age of consent in Arizona is 18, it's probably an age comment. Especially since Arizona isn't a particularly anti-gay state (it was the first state where an attempted "Defense of Marriage" amendment failed, for instance).

[Scavenger]

Given that the age of consent in Arizona is 18, it's probably an age comment. Especially since Arizona isn't a particularly anti-gay state (it was the first state where an attempted "Defense of Marriage" amendment failed, for instance).

I wasn't sure why Arizona would be mentioned, not being up on it's politics, other than the maneuverings of a senator from there. I just assumed Cho has backstory there (I don't know much of Cho other than the Herc issues).

[Deus ex Chris]

I suppose it's open to interpretation. I didn't take it as an age comment.
Considering gay sex isn't illegal anywhere in this country, the comment was clearly in regards to age.

[Scavenger]

Considering gay sex isn't illegal anywhere in this country, the comment was clearly in regards to age.

And considering age-based sex isn't an issue on the internet, the posts Cho was referring to was clearly in regards to, as Rachel Maddow says, teh gay.

[Expletive Deleted]

And considering age-based sex isn't an issue on the internet . . .http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/expletivedeleted/ChrisHanson.jpg

Seriously, though, I also read it as an age thing rather than a gay thing.

[celticguy]

Considering gay sex isn't illegal anywhere in this country, the comment was clearly in regards to age.

arn't there a few old sodomy laws till on the books in some places?

[Deus ex Chris]

And considering age-based sex isn't an issue on the internet, the posts Cho was referring to was clearly in regards to, as Rachel Maddow says, teh gay.
What?


arn't there a few old sodomy laws till on the books in some places?
They are still on the books in many places, but the Federal Supreme Court deemed sodomy laws unconstitutional. Basically, they can stay on the books until the end of time, but they no longer mean anything.