Why was there no rescue attempt for J'ohn?

[The Cool Thatguy]

At the end of Salvation Run, Manhunter was left on that alien world while the majority of villains escaped. The entire JLA knew that J'ohn was undercover and missing, exiled along with the rest of the villains. So why didn't the JLA grab a few villains and see what happened?

In Final Crisis 1, Batman mentoined the villains held a grudge against Manhunter for impersonating Blockbuster, but really glosses over the fact that Manhunter was MIA up until that point. What gives?

[carabas]

When Final Crisis #1 was written, Salvation Run wasn't even conceived yet. This is just a less extreme verion of the Countdown WTF?, or why did Orion die three times debate.

[The Cool Thatguy]

When Final Crisis #1 was written, Salvation Run wasn't even conceived yet. This is just a less extreme verion of the Countdown WTF?, or why did Orion die three times debate.

I dunno, Manhunter getting ambushed and taken down on an alien planet makes alot more sense than him getting whupped and captured off-panel on earth, where he can call for all kinds of backup.

[4thHorseman]

At the end of Salvation Run, Manhunter was left on that alien world while the majority of villains escaped. The entire JLA knew that J'ohn was undercover and missing, exiled along with the rest of the villains. So why didn't the JLA grab a few villains and see what happened?

In Final Crisis 1, Batman mentoined the villains held a grudge against Manhunter for impersonating Blockbuster, but really glosses over the fact that Manhunter was MIA up until that point. What gives?

Batman and J'onn had set up the plan for Manhunter to pose as Blockbuster to find out where all the villains were being taken to. They had tried to find him in the JLA story, but with no luck (or a good story for that matter). I believe that JLA story lead right into FC1.

[Mat001]

At the end of Salvation Run, Manhunter was left on that alien world while the majority of villains escaped. The entire JLA knew that J'ohn was undercover and missing, exiled along with the rest of the villains. So why didn't the JLA grab a few villains and see what happened?

In Final Crisis 1, Batman mentoined the villains held a grudge against Manhunter for impersonating Blockbuster, but really glosses over the fact that Manhunter was MIA up until that point. What gives?

Because they didn't know where everyone was when they came back. As soon as they returned, they were summoned by Libra for the meeting.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Because they didn't know where everyone was when they came back. As soon as they returned, they were summoned by Libra for the meeting.

In issue 1 we see villains protesting and the JLA rounding them up (how does that protest even work without Salvation Run?). That would have been the perfect time to ask about J'ohn. The entire JLA knew about his mission.

Not everyone was at Libra's meeting and there's no real indication that the villains came directly from the exile planet and straight to Libra. Given that, they had plenty of time to hunt any villain down and shake them down for info about what happened.

Sure, they might not be able to find J'ohn that way, but they'd at least have a better idea of his situation. He was MIA and then killed.

[Mat001]

In issue 1 we see villains protesting and the JLA rounding them up (how does that protest even work without Salvation Run?). That would have been the perfect time to ask about J'ohn. The entire JLA knew about his mission.

You can ask, but that doesn't mean that they'll answer. The ones captured, mainly the Flash's Rogues were too busy complaining about their right to protest. What are they going to do them? Mindwipe them?

Not everyone was at Libra's meeting and there's no real indication that the villains came directly from the exile planet and straight to Libra. Given that, they had plenty of time to hunt any villain down and shake them down for info about what happened.

You assume that they knew that they came back until they showed up at the protest. And as to going straight away to the meeting, I think that's a given how some of them look. Especially the Rogues.

Sure, they might not be able to find J'ohn that way, but they'd at least have a better idea of his situation. He was MIA and then killed.

Again, why would they tell them?

[The Cool Thatguy]

You can ask, but that doesn't mean that they'll answer. The ones captured, mainly the Flash's Rogues were too busy complaining about their right to protest. What are they going to do them? Mindwipe them?

Interogate them, maybe? Sic Batman on them at the very least.

You assume that they knew that they came back until they showed up at the protest. And as to going straight away to the meeting, I think that's a given how some of them look. Especially the Rogues.

Luthor looked fine. Grodd wasn't sporting any bullets holes, etc. They all seemed recouped. I doubt these guys would come back from a hell planet and immediately answer a summons from someone they have never met before.

Besides I doubt that hundreds of villains suddenly returning from an off planet exiles would go completely unnoticed.

Again, why would they tell them?

Lots of reasons. Bribe, threat, etc. Sure, Luthor might not bend under pressure, but I'm sure there are some minor leagues like Jewelee, Gargoyle etc. who'd cave when questioned by Batman or Superman. I'm sure the threat to send them back would loosen a few tongues.

[Kid Kyoto]

Obviously they read previews.

Knowing there was another crisis coming up and knowing that SOMEONE was going to die, no one wanted to try and rescue J'ohn.

Better him than me, they figured.

Besides, for all they know coming back from the dead is one of his powers.

[Kelson]

Not everyone was at Libra's meeting and there's no real indication that the villains came directly from the exile planet and straight to Libra. Given that, they had plenty of time to hunt any villain down and shake them down for info about what happened.

Some of them clearly had time to go find their cars and drive to the meeting.

[Mat001]

Interogate them, maybe? Sic Batman on them at the very least.

After what they've been through, there's nothing short of killing them that he can do to make talk.

Luthor looked fine. Grodd wasn't sporting any bullets holes, etc. They all seemed recouped. I doubt these guys would come back from a hell planet and immediately answer a summons from someone they have never met before.

I think that's generally what happened.

Besides I doubt that hundreds of villains suddenly returning from an off planet exiles would go completely unnoticed.

Well, it took a while for everyone to notice that they were disappearing.

Lots of reasons. Bribe, threat, etc. Sure, Luthor might not bend under pressure, but I'm sure there are some minor leagues like Jewelee, Gargoyle etc. who'd cave when questioned by Batman or Superman. I'm sure the threat to send them back would loosen a few tongues.

People don't believe that Superman will do anything. And as mentioned, there's nothing that they can do to them that isn't as bad as what they went through. And they know the heroes won't really send them back.

[Grico]

Obviously they read previews.

Knowing there was another crisis coming up and knowing that SOMEONE was going to die, no one wanted to try and rescue J'ohn.

Better him than me, they figured.

Besides, for all they know coming back from the dead is one of his powers.

Yeah if I was Nightwing, Conner Hawke, or Kyle Rayner I would definitely stick close to home with a crisis coming up. Wally West should have as well after DC Universe announced Barry Allen had come back. Basically nowadays if you are non-silver age with a silver age counterpart you should watch your back.

[Shellhead]

...or why did Orion die three times debate.

They had to kill Orion three times because he was just so tough.

[Sean Walsh]

They had to kill Orion three times because he was just so tough.

So that I've got it straight.....

1) DOTNG. Blown up and then comes back as a ghost. Bleh.
2) COUNTDOWN, kinda wanders off to die from his injuries. The best, IMHO.
3) FINAL CRISIS. Shot by evil bullet thingy.

....these are the 3 times?

[The Cool Thatguy]

After what they've been through, there's nothing short of killing them that he can do to make talk.

Because guys like Tapeworm are just that hard core?

I think that's generally what happened.

Despite clear evidence that contradicts that theory?

Well, it took a while for everyone to notice that they were disappearing..

Probably because most were thought to be in jail, where most were originally exiled from.

Are we really to believe that every single villain has an ultra secret lair, from Rag Doll to Killer Croc, that not a single villain would brag about leaving Manhunter behind and that no one would notice the sudden return of hundreds of villains all at the same time?

People don't believe that Superman will do anything. And as mentioned, there's nothing that they can do to them that isn't as bad as what they went through. And they know the heroes won't really send them back.

Batman's got some good terror tactics. He scares plenty of people who knows he won't kill. I'm sure he could break down losers like Tapeworm or Gargoyle. Hell, if all else failed I'm sure they could bribe some villains to learn what's what.

I just find their attitude confusing, Batman especially. J'ohn was MIA on a mission for Bats, no rescue effort was even attempted and they don't even blink when he turns up back on earth, dead. That's pretty damn sloppy of them.

[fly on the wall]

When Final Crisis #1 was written, Salvation Run wasn't even conceived yet. This is just a less extreme verion of the Countdown WTF?, or why did Orion die three times debate.

Orion died three times? I only count two. Illuminate me!

[carabas]

Orion died three times? I only count two. Illuminate me!
From post 14 in his thread:


1) DOTNG. Blown up and then comes back as a ghost. Bleh.
2) COUNTDOWN, kinda wanders off to die from his injuries. The best, IMHO.
3) FINAL CRISIS. Shot by evil bullet thingy.

[Adam C]

At the end of Salvation Run, Manhunter was left on that alien world while the majority of villains escaped. The entire JLA knew that J'ohn was undercover and missing, exiled along with the rest of the villains. So why didn't the JLA grab a few villains and see what happened?

And he appeared in a flaming cage. Meanwhile in the Justice League comic where Libra appeared, a Boom Tube is shown opening that persumably draws him straight to Libra.

So the answer to this is, no editorial co-ordination whatsoever.

[Sean Walsh]

And he appeared in a flaming cage. Meanwhile in the Justice League comic where Libra appeared, a Boom Tube is shown opening that persumably draws him straight to Libra.

So the answer to this is, no editorial co-ordination whatsoever.

Actually, if you look closely you'll see that flaming cage dissipate (thanks to Libra I presume) and then the Boom Tube appear (also Libra).

The question we should be asking ourselves, though, is: WHY DID J'ONN GO THROUGH THE BOOM TUBE?!?!

He had to have known of and seen the Darkseidyness of the prison planet, so why enter a device - used by Darkseid and pals just as much as others - without seeing fellow heroes? Say, Orion or Mr. Miracle emerge saying "Hey, MM! We found ya! Come on, let's take ya home!" You enter that Boom Tube. But one that just opens with no one in sight......why enter that when you're obviously very weakened and not in shape to fight a possible New God enemy on the other side??

[Mat001]

Actually, if you look closely you'll see that flaming cage dissipate (thanks to Libra I presume) and then the Boom Tube appear (also Libra).

The question we should be asking ourselves, though, is: WHY DID J'ONN GO THROUGH THE BOOM TUBE?!?!

He had to have known of and seen the Darkseidyness of the prison planet, so why enter a device - used by Darkseid and pals just as much as others - without seeing fellow heroes? Say, Orion or Mr. Miracle emerge saying "Hey, MM! We found ya! Come on, let's take ya home!" You enter that Boom Tube. But one that just opens with no one in sight......why enter that when you're obviously very weakened and not in shape to fight a possible New God enemy on the other side??

You assume he had a choice. He might've been pulled through.

[Adam C]

Actually, if you look closely you'll see that flaming cage dissipate (thanks to Libra I presume) and then the Boom Tube appear (also Libra).

Fair enough. That's what I get for just glancing through the comic at the comic shop.

[CBikle]

So the answer to this is, no editorial co-ordination whatsoever.

Yes, also: The original writer (Willingham) quit the series midway through and it was finished by Sturges, so there may have been some disconnect with how SR was supposed to resolve.

I suspect that Salvation Run was supposed to end either:

- With the villains leaving with the Martian Manhunter as a captive and tie into Final Crisis with Libra killing him or...

- MM never gets discovered as Blockbuster and escapes with the villains to Earth and continues to work undercover until he's "outed" by Libra, who then kills him in FC #1, or...

- Something else.

Overall SR works as a story, except for the story glitch of Catwoman throwing Jonn Jonzz under the bus to deflect the villain's attention away from her (this indirectly leads to the deaths of Thunder & Lightning, who are caught trying to help Jonn).

I think SR was supposed to lead into FC with the still captive Jonn getting offed by Libra, but if this had happened, it would have made Catwoman directly responsible for his death; by having Jonn escape and then get recaptured later in a different series, it absolves Catwoman.

[Grico]

That has been a big problem with Final Crisis, the books that were supposed to tie into Morrison's FC work dropped the ball and now we are left in this weird place where 1/2 of them don't count (Death of the New Gods, Countdown) and others like Salvation Run are ambiguous as to how much of them are continuity or not. At the moment I don't think we really know. Maybe it will answered someday.Will Catwoman be culpable for Manhunter's death in continuing DC continuity? I'm quite sure she won't she won't although her lack of series would make it a bit easier now for her to have such a flaw (although with her general knowness it is very unlikely regardless). In a few years J'onn will be back anyway, with his failed most recent revamp completely forgotten. Then it really won't matter.

[Paul McEnery]

Fair enough. That's what I get for just glancing through the comic at the comic shop.

That, and a greater degree of serenity.

[CBikle]

Also, it's a little weird that Libra saves Jonn, brings him back to Earth and then kills him in front of the very same supervillains who intentionally left him to die in the big explosion back on the prison planet.

I'm wondering if the Martian Mahunter's role in both books was an unfortunate coincidence ? Maybe some of this was supposed to play out in that new Outsiders book which was supposed to have Jonn and Catwoman on the same team ?

[jade_nova]

J'ohn's fellow heroes couldn't rescue him because they didn't know what planet he was on. They tried to rescue him but went to the wrong planet. I seriously doubt most of the villians even knew what planet they were on so there wasn't much point in asking them.

[carabas]

Somewhat pedantic and off topic: it is J'onn J'onzz, not J'ohn J'ones.

[The Cool Thatguy]

J'ohn's fellow heroes couldn't rescue him because they didn't know what planet he was on. They tried to rescue him but went to the wrong planet. I seriously doubt most of the villians even knew what planet they were on so there wasn't much point in asking them.

How so? If they talked to the villains, then they'd know that J'Ohn was alone and depowered in an alien planet somewhere. It wouldn't lead them to J'ohn, but they'd have more information than they had to start with.

You don't ignore small clues because they don't automatically solve the mystery. They knew absolutely nothing about J'ohn's status. So why wouldn't they make the effort to learn just a little more?

[CBikle]

How so? If they talked to the villains, then they'd know that J'Ohn was alone and depowered in an alien planet somewhere. It wouldn't lead them to J'ohn, but they'd have more information than they had to start with.

You don't ignore small clues because they don't automatically solve the mystery. They knew absolutely nothing about J'ohn's status. So why wouldn't they make the effort to learn just a little more?

Yeah, this isn't the sort of thing that the JLA would just give up on.

[DeadXMan]

why?

cause JLA don't care about green men.:mad: :wink:

[carabas]

How so? If they talked to the villains, then they'd know that J'Ohn was alone and depowered in an alien planet somewhere. It wouldn't lead them to J'ohn, but they'd have more information than they had to start with.I'll try it again...

Final Crisis #1 was pretty much set in stone a long time ago, long before editorial even conceived off Countdown, Death Of The New Gods, and Salvation run.
Therefore, Final Crisis #1 can't incorporate a story thread that was developed after it had been written.

The fault, of course, lies with editorial for not making sure that the tie-ins actually work with the main series rather than against it.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I'll try it again...

Final Crisis #1 was pretty much set in stone a long time ago, long before editorial even conceived off Countdown, Death Of The New Gods, and Salvation run.
Therefore, Final Crisis #1 can't incorporate a story thread that was developed after it had been written.

The fault, of course, lies with editorial for not making sure that the tie-ins actually work with the main series rather than against it.

Then why do we see those villains protesting in the first issue? That strikes me as a mighty odd thing to do if they hadn't been exiled to another planet.

[carabas]

It's a protest march against vigilante brutality. Salvation Run was quite brutal, but it was done by a government agency, not vigilantes.

If it had been about being shangayed to some prison planet, 'they attacked us without reason' is very poor choice of verbalising that complaint.

It doesn't say in the book what it is about specifically, but it does seem to more about superheroes being more brutal than they have to be (remember Dr. Light's lobotomy?).
But it can't be about Salvation Run because at the time of writing, Salvation Run did not exist. We know this to be fact, unles Morrison is simply lying his ass off in various interviews.

[The Cool Thatguy]

It's a protest march against vigilante brutality. Salvation Run was quite brutal, but it was done by a government agency, not vigilantes.

If it had been about being shangayed to some prison planet, 'they attacked us without reason' is very poor choice of verbalising that complaint.

It doesn't say in the book what it is about specifically, but it does seem to more about superheroes being more brutal than they have to be (remember Dr. Light's lobotomy?).
But it can't be about Salvation Run because at the time of writing, Salvation Run did not exist. We know this to be fact, unles Morrison is simply lying his ass off in various interviews.

Well, he did say that he'd written the mini series over a year ago, yet no one seems to have had the slightest clue what it was about.

[CBikle]

It's a protest march against vigilante brutality. Salvation Run was quite brutal, but it was done by a government agency, not vigilantes.

If it had been about being shangayed to some prison planet, 'they attacked us without reason' is very poor choice of verbalising that complaint.

It doesn't say in the book what it is about specifically, but it does seem to more about superheroes being more brutal than they have to be (remember Dr. Light's lobotomy?).
But it can't be about Salvation Run because at the time of writing, Salvation Run did not exist. We know this to be fact, unles Morrison is simply lying his ass off in various interviews.

I'm wondering if Morrisson suggested the idea of super villains exiled off planet as a side note in FC (perhaps as a rallying point for Libra) and DC expanded it to what eventually became Salvation Run ?

[carabas]

I'm wondering if Morrisson suggested the idea of super villains exiled off planet as a side note in FC (perhaps as a rallying point for Libra) and DC expanded it to what eventually became Salvation Run ?This is most likely what happened. Except that notes should have been compared to a much greater degree. Instead DC dug up an old pitch from George R.R. Martin they had lying around, and then mutilated that until it sort of not quite could pass as a prequel to Final Crisis.