The Killers of J'onn J'onzz: Don't Hold Your Breath For Justice

[WorstThingUS]

As I understand it, in America all parties involved in a murder are equally guilty even if only one person does the actual killing. Because of this, not only is Libra obviously guilty, but so is Luthor, Grodd, Vandal Savage, Sivana, Talia, Ocean Master, Dr. Light, Effigy and The Human Flame. Effigy and Dr. Light have been killed and you know The Human Flame and Libra probably won't see life beyond the end of Final Crisis, but the rest? They are the creme de la creme of super-villainy and will not suffer a bit for their participation in this which is kinda depressing so I have to wonder why Morrison included them since he can't punish them in some way? It will only serve to make the heroes look as ineffective as they have these past few years between raped wives and nuked cities.

Luthor - won't do five seconds in jail. Even when he breaks out, Superman just shrugs and says he'll get him later as he did in the "Up Up And Away" storyline.
Vandal Savage - was last jailed by the JSA for slaughter the families of past members for all the good it did.
Sivana - shouldn't even be alive on a world where Black Adam has any power after what he's done.
Grodd - Morrison personally wrote the story where the UN sanctioned his sentencing to the Phantom Zone and the JLA executed it. But so what?
Talia - I can't believe they stained her like this especially when Batman's not gonna do anything to her the way he's never done a thing to her. And he won't let anyone else either.
Ocean Master - So long as Arthur Curry is Aquaman (and let's face it, you know he will be again), his half brother must be around to fight him.

And then there's the loose end of Catwoman betraying J'onn that he was captured and killed. Logically, Batman should lose both his lovers forever because how can there be forgiveness for this?

I'm not asking for death, since you can't kill off the "omega" to your heroes' "alpha" but is a little punishment too much to ask? Especially for the death of a character this important to the heroes of the DCU? I get the JSA not giving a crap about the murder of The Tarantula, but the JLA loved J'onn. I'm gonna need some sort of payoff on this---but I won't hold my breath waiting for it.

[carabas]

As far as I can see, they weren't actually involved though. It was just Libra and his crew (effigi, Dr. Light, Human Flame...) that were involved in it.

In America, when two guys come into your office, and one kills the other, are you suddenly a murderer as well?

[Lester C.]

As far as I can see, they weren't actually involved though. It was just Libra and his crew (effigi, Dr. Light, Human Flame...) that were involved in it.

In America, when two guys come into your office, and one kills the other, are you suddenly a murderer as well?

That's the wrong scenerio. It's more like if you and three other people rob someone and one of your co-workers shoot kills someone, are you guilty ofe murder if you never fired the shot.? The answer in all 50 states is yes.

[Sijo]

in America all parties involved in a murder are equally guilty even if only one person does the actual killing. It's not like that; you still have to prove the degree of involvement. Most of those villains are just guilty of watching the murder. Besides, there's plenty of worse killers loose in the DC universe that deserved to be punished much more for their crimes, like Black Adam or Superboy Prime, and they are still using them. The current DC regime doesn't care about justice for the characters at all; they're probably planning the next massacre right now. Apparently they believe comics only sell that way these days. Funny how Marvel, even after Civil war, hasn't gotten so dark, and still sells just as well...

[DeTroyes]

Libra and his crew would probably face Murder-1 charges. Some of the lesser involved might get a plea bargain to Murder 2 or even Manslaughter, provided they turned State's Evidence and ratted on their colleagues.

The others might be liable for Accessory to Murder, if it can be proved that they were present, participated in the general mob that killed J'onzz, and did nothiing to prevent it. They are probably also open to Conspiracy to Committ Murder charges.

That's just off the top of my head. And it varies from state to state.

So even if a supervillian didn't actually kill MM, just being there probably opened them up to something. Provided they can be captured and the state can prosecute.

<_<

>_>

I want Jack McCoy to prosecute this case. :biggrin:

[Sanlear]

I wonder if even any of the villians think his death will be permanent? You know those wacky superheroes and their penchant for coming back from the dead and all.

[celticguy]

As a side note John being a Martian does that make it harder to prosecute?

Does Catwoman's action on Salvation run even exist in the story? As for Talia Batman knows what she is which is why he is not with her. If Black Canary brought her down he would not stop her.

[carabas]

That's the wrong scenerio. It's more like if you and three other people rob someone and one of your co-workers shoot kills someone, are you guilty ofe murder if you never fired the shot.? The answer in all 50 states is yes.Wrong scenario.
Luthor, Grodd, Savage... were not involved with Libra, did not even know Libra, and certainly didn't know he was actually going to off an A-list superhero.

[DeTroyes]

As a side note John being a Martian does that make it harder to prosecute?

It shouldn't. In the DCU, extraterrestial aliens seem to be treated on the exact same level as foreign nationals (which, if you think about it, is exactly what they are). Just because the victim was not an American citizen doesn't mean someone can't be prosecuted for it, if it happened on American soil.

What might be interesting is if Libra is convicted of Murder-1, and then MM gets resurrected. Libra's attorney's MIGHT have an argument that the resurrection renders the murder charges moot. Its a long shot, but I can see a savvy defense attorney trying to make the case. But that just means the state might file Aggravated Assault charges in their stead.

[Samuraixsithlord]

Remember when Sue died and the heroes went Ape S@#% on everyone.

I'd like to see that happen in the aftermath of FC, unless MM came back to life

[brundlefly]

Well, Lex has already been punished enough by poor characterization and bad writing since around 2004, imo....:biggrin:

But seriously, this "accessories to MM's murder" thing could have been easily avoided by having Libra, Human Flame, and the other two baddies broadcast the murder of J'onn to the villains' various lairs, instead of having them all be physically present. Would have had the additional benefit of sparing us yet another tired "reunion/gathering of all DC's supervillains in the Hall of Doom," too.

[DeTroyes]

But seriously, this "accessories to MM's murder" thing could have been easily avoided by having Libra, Human Flame, and the other two baddies broadcast the murder of J'onn to the villains' various lairs, instead of having them all be physically present. Would have had the additional benefit of sparing us yet another tired "reunion/gathering of all DC's supervillains in the Hall of Doom," too.

Yeah. But putting them physically there makes them all accessories... which further bonds them to his schemes.

[Kelson]

As I understand it, in America all parties involved in a murder are equally guilty even if only one person does the actual killing.

Not exactly. The felony murder rule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule) states two things:

1. If someone dies as a result of a felony, the death is considered murder (intentional) rather than manslaughter (unintentional), even if there was no intent to kill.
2. All persons involved in committing the felony can be prosecuted for murder, not just the one who did the killing.

So for instance, Pied Piper and Trickster are both legally culpable for Bart Allen's murder, because Bart was killed in a fight following the Rogues' attack on people at a museum. But simply gathering at a strip club after hours to see what Libra's going to do? That's not a felony, so the rule wouldn't apply to them. Those who were involved in kidnapping and restraining J'onn, sure. Though I'm not sure how far back you could go -- all the way back to when they captured him on Hell Planet, or just as far back as when Libra grabbed him from there.

Disclaimer: Not a lawyer, don't play one on TV, but dated a criminology major back in college.

[celticguy]

It shouldn't. In the DCU, extraterrestial aliens seem to be treated on the exact same level as foreign nationals (which, if you think about it, is exactly what they are). Just because the victim was not an American citizen doesn't mean someone can't be prosecuted for it, if it happened on American soil.

What might be interesting is if Libra is convicted of Murder-1, and then MM gets resurrected. Libra's attorney's MIGHT have an argument that the resurrection renders the murder charges moot. Its a long shot, but I can see a savvy defense attorney trying to make the case. But that just means the state might file Aggravated Assault charges in their stead.

Ok but there is no mars society anymore? What agency would push the case? Could a lawyer argue since he is not human USA law had no jurisdiction?

Just another thing to spur on the new JL

[DeTroyes]

Disclaimer: Not a lawyer, don't play one on TV, but dated a criminology major back in college.

Disclaimer here, too: Not a lawyer, but I'm married to one.

And like I said, the exact culpability of the others probably varies from state to state. It would have to depend on which state the murder took place.

Ok but there is no mars society anymore? What agency would push the case? Could a lawyer argue since he is not human USA law had no jurisdiction?

Extraterrestrials seem to have some kind of legal status in the DCU, probably something akin to Foreign Nationals. So I don't think the "not human" part would fly.

And note that Starfire got "drafted" by the US Government in Final Crisis #3, so there probably is some kind of legal recognition of ETs. (Hmmm.... I wonder if Starfire has a green card?)

And that entirely leaves aside the possibility that MM had already applied for and recieved American citizenship. He's certainly been here long enough and risked his life for the US to have earned it.

[brundlefly]

Yeah. But putting them physically there makes them all accessories... which further bonds them to his schemes.

Oh, sure, plus the villains might not believe a video broadcast of MM's death, compared to being there in person to see it. I was just saying that the video broadcast scenario would work better for keeping Libra, Flame, Effigy, and Light as J'onn's "killers" while distancing the rest of the bad guys from being accessories to the crime to just onlookers. There was another thread here recently wondering why Spectre wasn't going after Grodd, Lex, Vandal, etc. in addition to Effigy, Light, and Libra. The video broadcast scenario would work well for covering that question, too, as they'd really only be guilty of watching a snuff film.

[titanfan]

Does Catwoman's action on Salvation run even exist in the story?

That's what I want to know, she turned him in! If Bats knew about this, he'd turn her in.

[burtle]

Dr. Light already got his :V

[celticguy]

That's what I want to know, she turned him in! If Bats knew about this, he'd turn her in.


I don't think so she was just doing what she needed to survive. She does not owe MM anything.

[WorstThingUS]

Not exactly. The felony murder rule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule) states two things:

1. If someone dies as a result of a felony, the death is considered murder (intentional) rather than manslaughter (unintentional), even if there was no intent to kill.
2. All persons involved in committing the felony can be prosecuted for murder, not just the one who did the killing.

So for instance, Pied Piper and Trickster are both legally culpable for Bart Allen's murder, because Bart was killed in a fight following the Rogues' attack on people at a museum. But simply gathering at a strip club after hours to see what Libra's going to do? That's not a felony, so the rule wouldn't apply to them. Those who were involved in kidnapping and restraining J'onn, sure. Though I'm not sure how far back you could go -- all the way back to when they captured him on Hell Planet, or just as far back as when Libra grabbed him from there.

Disclaimer: Not a lawyer, don't play one on TV, but dated a criminology major back in college.

It's better than me. I've only got Law & Order on my side, but aren't they down for conspiracy? They are all known felons gathering with a known organization of criminals with a history of criminal acts? RICO statutes have got to come into play here.

Not to mention, this would mean The Spectre, god's wrath, follows American jurisprudence when meting out punishment. Which would explain a lot actually. "Yeah, I get you're God and can see everything everywhere, blah, blah, blah. But that's not admissible in court."

[WorstThingUS]

Oh, sure, plus the villains might not believe a video broadcast of MM's death, compared to being there in person to see it. I was just saying that the video broadcast scenario would work better for keeping Libra, Flame, Effigy, and Light as J'onn's "killers" while distancing the rest of the bad guys from being accessories to the crime to just onlookers. There was another thread here recently wondering why Spectre wasn't going after Grodd, Lex, Vandal, etc. in addition to Effigy, Light, and Libra. The video broadcast scenario would work well for covering that question, too, as they'd really only be guilty of watching a snuff film.

Exactly. This is why I wonder about Morrison's decision to essentially make them accessories. A line has been crossed here which makes it difficult to go back to the status quo. Like Dr. Light after the rape, he simply could not go back to what he was before, nor could the heroes treat him like a simple villain. Same with The Flash's Rogues Gallery who have now murdered Barry Allen's grandson and now The Secret Society.

And this goes double for Batman, who has not one, but two women he's loved complicit in the death of his friend. How can we ever accept any sort of flirtation much less romance with either of them once he finds out?

[celticguy]

I don't see Catwoman as being complicit in the least she ratted him out, that does not make her a helper in killing him.

the story on Salvation run does not seem to be in the history and two he did not die there he was left in a cage there. Has it been shown that he was taken from the cage to Libra?

Talia is only guilty of not saving him not killing him. She is responsible for plenty of death in the past and Batman was able to look past it.

[brundlefly]

Exactly. This is why I wonder about Morrison's decision to essentially make them accessories.

I figured them all being physically present at J'onn's murder was more to do with throwing a bone to the artist, as they all seem to love doing these 'gatherings of all the DC villains at the Hall of Doom from SuperFriends' renderings that we've seen over and over in recent years, than really needing them all physically present for any actual story purpose. More of a "this way looks better on the page" thing, compared to all the bad guys just watching J'onn die from individual monitors in their respective lairs.

[IvCNuB4]

2. All persons involved in committing the felony can be prosecuted for murder, not just the one who did the killing.

So for instance, Pied Piper and Trickster are both legally culpable for Bart Allen's murder, because Bart was killed in a fight following the Rogues' attack on people at a museum. .

But the robberywasn't the direct or indirect cause of Bart's death. They had nothing to do with Bart's death. Piper was trying to stop it. In fact, Piper and Trickster were kicking the crap out of Inertia when the other Rogues fired the blasts that killed Bart ....

[K-DoG7p7]

Remember when Sue died and the heroes went Ape S@#% on everyone.

I'd like to see that happen in the aftermath of FC, unless MM came back to life

Its kinda the point of the new Justice League series..

[titanfan]

I don't think so she was just doing what she needed to survive. She does not owe MM anything.

It's fine for a morally ambiguous character like Catwoman. But since when has that answer been acceptable to Batman?

[WorstThingUS]

I don't see Catwoman as being complicit in the least she ratted him out, that does not make her a helper in killing him.

No, but her actions contributed to his death.

the story on Salvation run does not seem to be in the history and two he did not die there he was left in a cage there. Has it been shown that he was taken from the cage to Libra?

The inference is that Libra acquires him from the cage, which actually serves to make Luthor even more complicit

Talia is only guilty of not saving him not killing him. She is responsible for plenty of death in the past and Batman was able to look past it.

It was never a friend before. And inaction is called negligent homicide.

But the robberywasn't the direct or indirect cause of Bart's death. They had nothing to do with Bart's death. Piper was trying to stop it. In fact, Piper and Trickster were kicking the crap out of Inertia when the other Rogues fired the blasts that killed Bart ....

That sounds it makes them more culpable. Any good prosecutor could make the case they were just trying to kill him more slowly.

Its kinda the point of the new Justice League series..

Hasn't this been tried before? That James Robinson is doing it gives me no hope after his recent work on Superman.

[IvCNuB4]

That sounds it makes them more culpable. Any good prosecutor could make the case they were just trying to kill him more slowly..

That makes no sense whatsoever ...

[theNighteye]

im on the edge of my seat with Final Crisis. I wanna know who else is gonna "die"

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[WorstThingUS]

That makes no sense whatsoever ...

"Weren't you, Trickster, with the Piper in fact already in process of beating The Flash to death with your bare hands when he was killed by the energy bolt!?!"

"No, I was---"

"No further questions!"

[FrogMan]

Ah, he'll just be alive again at the end of Final Crisis anyway.

[Scott Taylor]

Seems he's got to be brought back. Doesn't every big event at DC have a 50/50 chance at revamping MM?

[CBikle]

I don't see Catwoman as being complicit in the least she ratted him out, that does not make her a helper in killing him.

Legally, I think you're correct, especially since that occurred on another planet, waaaay out of U.S. legal jurisdiction. Technically, any crimes that occurred there aren't really punishable by any Earth laws (although it's possible that Selina Kyle, Luthor, et al might find themselves getting subpoenaed by the Guardians of the Universe...

the story on Salvation run does not seem to be in the history and two he did not die there he was left in a cage there. Has it been shown that he was taken from the cage to Libra?



Due to another editorial disconnect, it's kind of unclear as to what exactly happened with MM between the last issue of Salvation Run and the 1st issue of Final Crisis. It appears as though Luthor and the rest left MM to die on the planet only to have Libra rescue him, drag him to Earth and then kill him in front of the same villains who left him to die in that fiery prison cage in the first place.

[celticguy]

If batman let her kill the black mask and did not turn her in he would not for this.

[WorstThingUS]

If batman let her kill the black mask and did not turn her in he would not for this.

Black Mask wasn't a close friend. And it's not about turning her in, it's about any sort of relationship being essentially dead.