Ultimate Avengers!

[Kid Kamikaze10]

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/090809-UltimateAvengers.html


Sweet Lordy.... Marvel has listened!!!! Millar is back on the Ultimates!!!!


Yes!!!

[yamiangie]

well we don't know if it's them but if it is thank you lord. They finaly will have the right name. Thank you squadron supreme for droping that name in Supreme Power.

[Babykhris]

NEWSRAMA: Any teases of some of the characters you'll be using?

MM: Ultimate Cap, Ultimate Iron Man, Ultimate Blade, Ultimate Punisher, Ultimate Ghost Rider, Ultimate Spidey. You won't believe what I have planned here and this just touches on what's coming up

If this is the Ultimate Avengers team I'm not impressed.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

If this is the Ultimate Avengers team I'm not impressed.

No. He said they are among the many members he was using for a specific story.

I'm was excited about this. Millar coming back to sort out the mess! But then I saw that Jeph Loeb was still mentioned as being involved with the brand. That worries me. It could be that while Millar writes Ultimate Avengers Loeb still writes The Ultimates. That would suck.

Loeb needs to be as far away from all of these characters as is possible.

[Black Vespa]

If this is the Ultimate Avengers team I'm not impressed.

same here. -

[ThePhenom]

*Screams in glee*

That is all.

Oh, and African American Hulk. Heh?

[Ben Morse]

Mark Millar drops bombs on returning to the Ultimate Universe with a huge new series involving dozens of characters and an all-star artist roster!

http://www.marvel.com/news/comicstories.4841.Millar_Launches_Ultimate_Avenger s

[Babykhris]

As was announced last evening at Marvel’s presentation at the Diamond Comics Distributors’ Retailer Summit in Las Vegas, Mark Millar’s previously announced return to the Ultimate Universe will take the form of Ultimate Avengers, a project due to debut in early 2009.

More specifically, the miniseries/series (with a yet-unnamed artist) will be set in the “post-Ultimatum Ultimate Universe, that is, in a changed Ultimate Universe.

The title, of course, is familiar for a couple of reasons – “Ultimate Avengers” was used as shorthand for what would later become known as The Ultimates very early in the days of the Ultimate Universe, and secondly, Ultimate Avengers and Ultimate Avengers 2 were the two of the earliest direct-to-DVD features released by Marvel/Lionsgate were titled. The films were loose adaptations of stories from Ultimates volumes 1 and 2 by Millar and Bryan Hitch.

We spoke with Millar about the coming project.

Newsarama: Let’s start with the basics Mark – you told us in July about returning to the Ultimate Universe, and now we know the title - Ultimate Avengers. What’s it about?

Mark Millar: Ultimate Avengers will be the Big Daddy of the Ultimate Universe as of issue one. This is the Ultimate line's event book. It's like Civil War or Secret Invasion happening twice a year as two crossover events take place annually with a new artist and a new cast of characters every six issues.

The opening storyline crosses the Ultimates over with lots of other characters and we get a threat bigger than anything we've seen in the books previously. Then we switch gears completely with the second storyline, titled Ultimates Black, as we focus on the black ops team introduced in Ultimates Vol 1. This is where we see the nasty shit that Fury and SHIELD get up to off-camera and not only features the origin of Hawkeye, but also SHIELD's replacement Captain America, the reinvention of the Punisher, War Machine and the African American Hulk. Every six issues is a brand new event. Every six issues is an above A-list artist. I'm going to do two years on this book and the four artists on this book are pretty much the four biggest names the industry has to offer. This book is going to launch at number one and hopefully just stay there. As Joe Q pointed out, I've shamelessly fused Marvel's two biggest brands from this decade, the Ultimate line and the Avengers book, into a single title. It's going to be a monster. Like I said, Civil War and Secret Invasion happening twice a year. This is an ongoing event book made up of six issue events.

NRAMA: There were always comments that what you and Bryan were doing in Ultimates was the Avengers in a sense. So what makes this different than the Ultimates?

MM: The Ultimates was really a twenty-six issue origin story. Ultimate Avengers is where the shit hits the fan every month. Bryan and I had the best experience of our professional careers on that book, but you didn't see Ultimate Kang or Ultimate Red Skull or any updates of the classic Marvel villains. Ultimates 1 and 2 gave The Avengers a 21st Century facelift, but this is where the stories kick into high gear. That world is about to get much bigger as we hopefully reinvent the superhero versus super-villain kind of stories in much the same way as we did a very different kind of superhero origin story.

But the biggest difference of all is that my artists and I have the entire world to play with here. We can dip into the other books, borrow characters, tie into their storylines and so on. Plus Ultimize all the things I never got a chance to in Ultimates. I'd say the biggest success I've had, the one thing I feel very confident doing, is a new spin on the old characters. Cap, Thor, Iron Man, Nick Fury, Hawkeye... all these guys worked out really well in Ultimates, so much so that Marvel Studios are using them as the basis of the movie characters... and I'd like to extend that a little. I want to do Ultimate Blade, Ultimate Ghost Rider, even Ultimate Tomb of Dracula. I have all the stories worked out already and am very excited by it. This is the one and only Marvel title I'll be working on for the next two years. Movie and creator-owned commitments mean I can do nothing else and I've pretty much wrapped up all my current stuff. But this is the book where anything can happen. I'm halfway through “Ultimates Black” at the moment and having the time of my life, to be honest.

NRAMA: The Ultimate Universe has always been a touch more realistic than the regular Marvel U. With the word of massive changes coming in Ultimatum, should we consider the title "Avengers" being a touch more literal?

MM: Um, not really. But it ties in directly with the end of Ultimatum and launches straight out of those closing pages. I'm teasing Jeph [Loeb] that the sheriff's back in town and there's a nice little gag about that in the opening pages to issue one.

NRAMA: Obviously, you can't say much, but can you give any broad strokes as to what the Ultimate Universe is like Post-Ultimatum?

MM: The very, very simple plan is for the Ultimate line to be better than the Marvel U again. All the books just lived in the top ten for the first few years, but it's kind of trailed off since around 2005 and the Marvel U in many ways has become Ultimatized. You've had the militarization of the superheroes under SHIELD, the X-Men revealing having public identities, even Spider-Man being unmarried and more like Ultimate Peter and so on.

The Marvel U essentially caught up with the Ultimate U, but I can smell things shifting again and our mission here is to put the Ultimate line five years ahead of the regular Marvel U just like it was a few years back. I want Ultimate Avengers to spearhead that and the plans are great. We don't want any more mini-series or dilution of the line. I did my first Marvel meeting in a couple of years last month and the plan was very simple... five books, the core characters and the absolute best writers and artists on those five titles. It's what made the Ultimate line work first time around.

NRAMA: You mentioned in July, and just named some of the characters above, that your plans included: Ultimate Cap, Ultimate Iron Man, Ultimate Blade, Ultimate Punisher, Ultimate Ghost Rider and Ultimate Spidey. Can we assume that any or all of them are on the team you've assembled?

MM: It's not a specific team as such. It's an ongoing event book so there's two big stories every year and all the guys you've mentioned (plus many others) are in the first three stories. Ultimate Blade
appears in the third story and I can't wait to write it. I've wanted to re-jig Blade for years.

NRAMA: You also told us in July that your upcoming return to the Ultimate Universe was the "most ambitious Ultimate project so far and even ties in with what Zak Penn is doing on The Avengers movie." Are you saying that the post-Ultimatum Universe will be essentially the Marvel movie universe, for lack of a better term?

MM: I think it always has been. Kevin [Feige] has mentioned this a few times in the past and Zak had a whole panel about it at SDCC in the summer, where he said they're really following the Ultimate versions of the characters as they're the easiest to translate to the screen. It's very complimentary of course.

NRAMA: You are and have been busy in both Marvel "universes." Does the writing process in one differ than the other?

MM: I think trying to write both at the same time would lead to paranoid schizophrenia. So 1985 is finished, Old Man Logan still has one more issue and I have two more issues of Fantastic Four to write then I'm done with the Marvel U for as long as I can imagine. Ultimate Avengers will be the one and only Marvel book I plan to write, certainly between now and 2010. I just don't have time to do anything else. This is a big commitment on top of my other stuff and I want to put as much effort into it as possible.

NRAMA: Let’s wrap with a final tease - you mentioned that the Marvel Universe has basically become the Ultimate Universe in many ways thanks to Civil War and other developments. How do you step things up and make them blindingly distinct again – get them five years ahead, as you said?

MM: Bendy, Joe, Jeph and I had a very simple plan when we all met in New York recently. We decided that the Ultimate line needed to have that guarantee of quality again. That gold standard feeling you got when you saw those bars on the cover. We shouldn't go over five issues a month for a whole year, keep it to our little gang and make it the most exciting line of books on the stands again. I know the plans for next year and they're bloody awesome. The artists are going to be a big surprise too. I just sense everything shifting this way again as we close out the decade. The relaunch is going to be amazing and there's friendly competition between us to make sure our books are the biggest of the lot.

Ultimate Avengers is going to be a monster, though. Where else are you going to get Ultimate Doom teaming up with Ultimate Red Skull and Ultimate Kang? It's almost unfair (laughs). Plus I get to write Ultimate Cap and Ultimate Tony again, really giving them a chance to kick arse against some proper super-villains. It's going to be great. I've missed these guys so much.

[Chaos_Alfa]

It sounds awesome.

I just hope Millar doesn't Ignore everything that happened in Iron man's mini serie when he's going to use Iron man and War Machine.

Now lets just hope Loeb isn't involved.

[Blader5489]

Sweet merciful God, this sounds amazing. Finally! The true sequel to Ultimates 1 and 2! I only hope Hitch is involved at some point.

2009 can't get here soon enough.

[Slartibartfast]

Just..... wow

Thank God, it sounds like we're gonna be telling stories again.

Just...... wow.

Oh yeah, and to everyone who said the Ultimate Line was being cancelled...... you were wrong.

[Ex_]

It's fantastic that Loeb is leaving and Millar is coming back...but I like that the name wasn't Avengers. I hope this really is VERY different from 616.

[Dr. Chaos]

Everybody is assuming The Ultimates are gone, is that really wise?

I'm pretty sure Loeb isn't done leaving his fingerprints all over that book or the universe.

[Joe Franklin]

Everybody is assuming The Ultimates are gone, is that really wise?

I'm pretty sure Loeb isn't done leaving his fingerprints all over that book or the universe.


I hope Loeb stays around. I like his goofy high action superhero stories. I like Millar's dark violent serious stuff, and I also like Loeb's high action goofy stuff as well. There is plenty of room in the Ultimate Universe for both styles.

[rwsmith]

Loeb is still doing Ultimates 3.5 with Frank Cho simultaneously with Millar's Ultimate Avengers. They are two very different books with different concepts. The Ultimates will continue as the Tony Stark-financed Ultimatized version of the Avengers, while the actual Ultimate Avengers book by Millar will focus on Nick Fury assembling different teams for different missions (some of which will be like black ops assignments). This way Millar can kind of mix and match characters as he see fit.

Sounds like fun!

[Ramirez IV]

Oh my wow. Oh my God. This is incredible.

Uh... one point, um... toward the end of the newsarama interview, he mentions taking the line back to basics with just FIVE titles...

Does this mean everything's going to continue as is (USM, UXM, UFF Ultimates and now Ultimate Avengers)?

I am very excited for my favorite line. Marvel rule.

[Oblivion87]

This is sounds great, can't wait for Ulitmate Avengers.

[HaroldAllnut]

If this is the Ultimate Avengers team I'm not impressed.
same here. -

In the interview, he says that the rosters change every 6 issues, so don't worry about. I, for one, am excited to see his renditions of Ghost Rider and Tomb of Dracula.


Now lets just hope Loeb isn't involved.

A-thank you.


Loeb is still doing Ultimates 3.5 with Frank Cho simultaneously with Millar's Ultimate Avengers. They are two very different books with different concepts.

I just don't get why they're not calling it Ultimates 4. The 3.5 just sounds weird.

[Babykhris]

I'm really excited about the Ultimates Black arc,however I hope Millar uses Karma more.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

1) why the **** didn't they do this in the first pace?!

Ultimate versions of classic Avengers foes like Red Skull and Kang would have better then this convoluted mess involving Venom, the brotherhood and robot doubles. Hell Ultimate Egghead would have been better. The fact that loeb likely wasted the best avengers villain, Ultron.

If Ultimates had one flaws it that the villains were always kinda weak (Red Skull is a billion times more interesting then Klesier) and this seeks to address that.

This is good news, but it still doesn't change the fact marvel sunk the Ultimates brand with Loeb's idiotic storyline.

2. There still is one pitfall despite the good news:

The Ultimate Universe has had one pitfall, the villains are always kinda weak, from day one in terms of villains the 616 universe has always kicked the UU's butt.

I mean does the Red Skull really need an update, it seems to have worked well the way he is, especially in recent times.

Here's the thing, how do ultimatize Red Skull and Kang without making them exactly the same or changing them to the point where the spirit of the character is lost.

I mean will Kang lose his time traveling gimmick because it isn't realistic and if he does, what does he do pose a threat to this group?

Also a lot of the stuff that made the Red Skull work in the 616 universe doesn't apply to the UU. Cap already has Kleiser as WWII nemesis, so the Skull can't fit that role. In the 616 universe the Skull is supposed to be the most evil villain around, but works because he has more noble or sympathetic villains to contrast with (Magneto, Doom, etc). Since Ultimate Magneto is a pure evil hateful bigot with no real redeeming qualities, what's Ultimate Red Skull supposed to be? Also considering Ultimate Cap is a jerk instead of a boy scout, how is the Skull supposed to contrast him? At this point what purpose would an ultimate Red Skull serve?

[Beast]

Now lets just hope Loeb isn't involved.
He is. He was a key member of the creative team that plotted the changes coming.

[IronStarks]

Great news, this is awsome. Couldnt think of a better series idea with a better writer

[2-4-5_Trioxin]

If this is the Ultimate Avengers team I'm not impressed.


Id be impressed and excited if millar wrote anything in the ultimate universe. The best ultimate arcs and stories were done by him, to me atleast. The couple mini's in fantastic four were the best, the xmen when he started it was the best, the ultimates was his best work.

Out of all the ultimate comics the ones millar did were my favorite since he didnt write it like a gimmick or try and squeeze out more new ultimate characters. He made them all seem very familliar and yet he managed to make them all feel new and fresh, not rehashed or just beefed up like almost everyother ultimate writer has done.

Now if his buddy hitch is along for the ride again Ill be set.

[HaroldAllnut]

Since Ultimate Magneto is a pure evil hateful bigot with no real redeeming qualities, what's Ultimate Red Skull supposed to be? Also considering Ultimate Cap is a jerk instead of a boy scout, how is the Skull supposed to contrast him? At this point what purpose would an ultimate Red Skull serve?

Red Skull could easily be a bio-augmented Neo Nazi. There's always room for super-bigots when it comes to supervillains.

As for contrasting Cap... Well, Ultimate Cap may be a jerk, but a lot of heroes are. Look at Batman or Iron Man; either of them can be real, grade-A dickheads, but you'd much rather have them on your side than the Joker or Ezekiel Stane.


Now if his buddy hitch is along for the ride again Ill be set.

There'll be two artists who rotate per storyarc, from what I understand. I think they might be entirely new; however, I'm not 100% sure. I didn't hate Hitch's artwork, but I wouldn't mind seeing other prominent artists get a crack at some Ultimate stuff.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Red Skull could easily be a bio-augmented Neo Nazi. There's always room for super-bigots when it comes to supervillains.

As for contrasting Cap... Well, Ultimate Cap may be a jerk, but a lot of heroes are. Look at Batman or Iron Man; either of them can be real, grade-A dickheads, but you'd much rather have them on your side than the Joker or Ezekiel Stane.


But the Skull is supposed to the most evil villain around, not the second most evil villain around, or one of five of the most evil villains around.

A neo-nazi is kinda lame, that's a real step down from being Hitler's number one guy, neo nazis don't have any real power, they are just idiots. Giving him super powers is kinda lame too, the Skull is supposed to a villain who relies solely on brains, how many villains in the UU do that? Turning the Skull into some super powered Neo Nazi thug kinda strips away everything that made him great in the first place.


Plus if Cap's a jerk where's the contrast, Batman and Joker are contrasted by one representing order and the other representing chaos, that's why they contrast each other. In the 616 universe Cap is supposed to represent freedom and tolerate, while the Skull represents hate and tyranny. Considering ultimate cap is kinda a government stooge he doesn't really represent freedom, so where's the contrast, the interesting relationship dynamics?

[hunter_peterson]

616 Red Skull is supposed top be the biggest bastard, Ultimate version may have a different flavor.

[2-4-5_Trioxin]

There'll be two artists who rotate per storyarc, from what I understand. I think they might be entirely new; however, I'm not 100% sure. I didn't hate Hitch's artwork, but I wouldn't mind seeing other prominent artists get a crack at some Ultimate stuff.

Yeah I know what you mean. I just liked the work he did on 1 and 2. His attention to detail and expressions was great, it just had this great harmony with what millar was writing.

I wouldnt mind someone else but I just liked how synced up they were with eachother.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

616 Red Skull is supposed top be the biggest bastard, Ultimate version may have a different flavor.


So what a sympathetic a Ultimate Red Skull? If Red Skull isn't pure evil, it isn't true to the spirit of the character, neither is giving the Skull super powers, it be like giving Joker or Lex Luthor. He doesn't have to be a nazi, but he does have to be pure evil.

The problem is Ultimate villains suck, 616 villains are a million times better. There is no personality diversity, everyone is either an evil thug or an evil mastermind, no one is noble or symapthetic, so the red Skull has no other more sympathetic villains to play off of, is that makes his character far less relevant.

I mean how would Ultimate Red Skull not be vastly inferior to 616 Red Skull?

[Bowie1979]

This is really great news - I'm very excited about the future of the Ultimate line. Millar rules!

[hunter_peterson]

True, and I do think that the Red Skull serves as a fantastic exapmle of pure evil, but he could have anothr origin. And not all of the villains are unsympathetic. Norman Osborn was getting glimmers of humanity in Death of a Goblin, for one example.

I do think that Magneto should be more sympathetic, but Origins is setting this up somewhat, with him being a victim of early Weapon X (which his mother worked for). It does explain why he hates humans and America in particular. It also bolsters his credibility, as he's experienced what humans will do to mutants firsthand, insead of a proxy experience during the Holocaust.

As for the Red Skull getting powers, I don't see why a minor ability would be bad, 616 Skull once had the genetics of Steve Rodgers.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

True, and I do think that the Red Skull serves as a fantastic exapmle of pure evil, but he could have anothr origin. And not all of the villains are unsympathetic. Norman Osborn was getting glimmers of humanity in Death of a Goblin, for one example..

There is a difference between a glimmer of sympathy and being completely sympathetic, there's no character like Two-Face in the UU, just Gobby had one moment of regret doesn't make him sympathetic



I do think that Magneto should be more sympathetic, but Origins is setting this up somewhat, with him being a victim of early Weapon X (which his mother worked for). It does explain why he hates humans and America in particular. It also bolsters his credibility, as he's experienced what humans will do to mutants firsthand, insead of a proxy experience during the Holocaust. ..

Being a victim of something real like the holocaust is way more rrelatable to average perosn then something far ut there like Weapon X.

Also big deal, it takes more then a sob story to be sympathetic, you also have to have some redeeming qualities as a person.

I mean the red Skull had a rough childhood, but he is not sympathetic, he has done way too many evil things to be sympathetic, same deal with ultimate Magneto, he has raped the dog too often to be sympathetic, he is an evil SOB that dserves to die, I don't feel sorry for him at all.

After you do stuff like this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeTheDog

You can never be sympathetic. Hint: shooting of your own son's knee caps



As for the Red Skull getting powers, I don't see why a minor ability would be bad, 616 Skull once had the genetics of Steve Rodgers.

616 Cap is not superhuman, though. Peak of human ability, not super human. besides the Skull has always relied far more brains then brawns, knowing he can never take Cap in fight, even in his cloned body this was the case. Besides the Skull doesn't have that cloned body now and is still dangerous.

Besides the UU has almost no villains that rely solely on brains. Even Ultimate Origins gave Kingpin super powers.

Its like in the UU, if you don't have super powers you can't be considered a threat, which is just silly.

To make Ultimate red Skull work, he would stil have just a human, still be pure evil and not have his Nazi background. That's a tall order.

[hunter_peterson]

I do have to say that sympathy levels with villains is a bit low, but they don't need to be a tragedy to gain sympathy.

As for Magneto being more credible I meant story-telling wise, as obviously being a Holocaust survivor will earn more sympathy from readers. And I don't think he's unlikeable as a person, which is one of his more frightening aspects. Surely having despicable villains means that they've been well written, anyway? If the writer wants you to hate them that is.

I do agree that the Ultimate Red Skull should be brains-reliant. But if a power is well executed I won't complain. I don't recall the Kingpin getting powers, I think that was his daddy.

[Don Yoyo]

To make Ultimate red Skull work, he would stil have just a human, still be pure evil and not have his Nazi background. That's a tall order.

I know, I know! Red Skull will be the true ruler of Roxxon Corporation :smile:

What? I don't know the character so I should zip it? Okay...

[CBR News]

Mark Millar will in 2009 write "Ultimate Avengers," a new ongoing series featuring
not just the heroes of his and Bryan Hitch's "Ultimates," but the entire Ultimate
universe. We spoke with Millar about the project.


Full article here (http://comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=17999).

[hunter_peterson]

Somehow I doubt that Bendis will let Millar reach out and fondle his characters in an anthology book.

[Ramirez IV]

Reach out and fondle? That's... disturbingly great. Kudos to you Sabretooth guy.

[Dr. Chaos]

You know, I kind of want to like this and I was ridiculously hyped when I heard the name but with the way Millar keeps describing it, he's kind of turning me off.

It sounds more like Ultimate Marvel presents team ups than it does actually Ultimate Avengers.

Should be interesting to see how Mark handles the way Loeb has damaged some of his goods. Hopefully he repays the favor and completely ignores the characterization of characters like Thor and Hawkeye (but keeps the costume) in U3 and generally just writes them how he envisioned them.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

I do have to say that sympathy levels with villains is a bit low, but they don't need to be a tragedy to gain sympathy..

It helps, I mean Two-Face having a tragic origin is what makes him sympathetic



As for Magneto being more credible I meant story-telling wise, as obviously being a Holocaust survivor will earn more sympathy from readers. And I don't think he's unlikeable as a person, which is one of his more frightening aspects. Surely having despicable villains means that they've been well written, anyway? If the writer wants you to hate them that is...

Again, the problem is almost no villain in the UU is sympathetic, tragic, noble, etc. It makes them hard to tell apart on a personality level (really how different is Ultimate Electro, from Ultimate Sandman). If all the villains are just evil, with no one who is sympathetic, tragic, noble, etc, then the all become boring and too similar.

Also after Magneto massive dog raping (shooting his own son's knees out, killing a bunch of innocnet peole on the brooklyn Bridge, for no real reason) how can you say he's not unlikable. He's the most evil person in the UU so far, most people would find him unlikable.



I do agree that the Ultimate Red Skull should be brains-reliant. But if a power is well executed I won't complain. I don't recall the Kingpin getting powers, I think that was his daddy.

You really don't think Kkingpin didn't get his strength from his father's genes, why they do to Kingpin's dad, if not to explain that?

I don't see how adding a power adds anything to the Skull, it takes away more then it adds. He willl be like every other villain, who needs powers to compete, instead of brains.

There are ways of making him dangerous then giving him a cliched super power, people in real life are very dangerous and they don't have powers.

[hunter_peterson]

Why thank you Ramirez.

I do have to say, Millar is sounding a wee bit up himself these days...

I just hope that his brain hasn't started to fall off like bits of wet cake yet, that's what got Loeb.

[hunter_peterson]

Also after Magneto massive dog raping (shooting his own son's knees out, killing a bunch of innocnet peole on the brooklyn Bridge, for no real reason) how can you say he's not unlikable. He's the most evil person in the UU so far, most people would find him unlikable.

You obviously haven't read Magnetic North, he's just slathering that charm on for Polaris. :wink: Also I must have missed the bestiality part, but I heard Venom ate a horse...:confused:

As for the Red Skull I would appreciate something similar to Heath Ledger's Joker, just less... Joker-y. Just a completly chaotic strategy would be refreshing. Like a trip to the zoo or an eclair.

[The Ray]

I guess this officially makes the Ultimate line into just another superhero line.

[Dr. Chaos]

Five bucks says Ultimate Red Skull is middle eastern.

And the no mini series comment from Millar is abit strange since in a interview about Ultimate Avengers over at IGN, Marvel is saying there will still be limited series even though the universe is going to get smaller.

[hunter_peterson]

Wasn't the Colonel going to be the Red Skull originally? Cap was going to boil him alive with Darth Maul's lightsaber or something.

Ooh, suggestive.

[artiepants]

sooooooooo tired of Millar's hype. He sells every project exactly the same way. Also disappointing to hear they are going to continue to let Loeb muck around in the Ultimate Universe.

My Ultimates Dream-Team: Christopher Priest and Mitch Breitwieser (sp?).

[psm]

I mean does the Red Skull really need an update, it seems to have worked well the way he is, especially in recent times.

Considering that Nazism has been dead and gone for about 60 yrs, I would definitely say the Red Skull needs updating. Bigotry is alive and well but that particular flavor isn't. There are so many ways to update him while staying true to his core. Look at all the radical right wing groups (aka Al Queada) across the world that could fill in for that type of fascism.

Sadly, I expect Millar to keep him German and a nazi sympathizer.

[edogawa1983]

sooooooooo tired of Millar's hype. He sells every project exactly the same way. Also disappointing to hear they are going to continue to let Loeb muck around in the Ultimate Universe.

My Ultimates Dream-Team: Christopher Priest and Mitch Breitwieser (sp?).

oh noes, comic book writers trying to sell their comics....

[hunter_peterson]

He could be a Chinese Communist. Or a North Korean. Or a Russian. Or Iranian. Or Latverian, even. Or just some hole. The choice of nationality is rather large, as I assume he will be a bigot from a country the USA deems as an "enemy". I'd laugh if he was Irish, the original terrorist stereotype.

But I'm not so focused on that; I'm more perplexed by Afro-Hulk. WTF? Why would you need that, unless it's a new Abomination. That'd be cool. But Millar does seem to enjoy taking 616 wasps and recoloring them for no particular reason. As if to assert his absolute tolerance of everyone. Makes you think he's compensating for something...

[Joe Franklin]

:eek: The artist for the first story is somebody Millar has never had draw his scripts, and is to big of a name for him to spoil? Can it be Jim Lee?

[Chaos_Alfa]

You obviously haven't read Magnetic North, he's just slathering that charm on for Polaris. :wink: Also I must have missed the bestiality part, but I heard Venom ate a horse...:confused:

As for the Red Skull I would appreciate something similar to Heath Ledger's Joker, just less... Joker-y. Just a completly chaotic strategy would be refreshing. Like a trip to the zoo or an eclair.

That was in Ultimate Spider-Man 125.

[XPac]

I actually think this sounds kinda fun.

Sort of like the Justice League Unlimited Cartoon.

[Don Yoyo]

He will perharps make the Red Skull Asian, just so that he can have an Asian foe that actually looks Asian (does Hytch have trouble drawing Asian people? I mean, three members of the Liberators were Asian, two were mutated beyond recognition and the third one we couldn't see the face!) :smile:


Also I must have missed the bestiality part, but I heard Venom ate a horse...

Yeah, and the cop on it :biggrin: Venom's hungry!


As for the Red Skull I would appreciate something similar to Heath Ledger's Joker, just less... Joker-y. Just a completly chaotic strategy would be refreshing. Like a trip to the zoo or an eclair.

Going from the tyrannic ruler to a complete anarchist? Lol, that would be one of a kind of a 180° turn!

[Toboe]

Sounds like the kind of thing Millar gets to shine with, hopefully it won't dissapoint.

I'm most excited about getting to see Ultimate Hawkeye's origin, it's the one that made me love the character in the first place.

[psm]

But I'm not so focused on that; I'm more perplexed by Afro-Hulk. WTF? Why would you need that, unless it's a new Abomination. That'd be cool. But Millar does seem to enjoy taking 616 wasps and recoloring them for no particular reason. As if to assert his absolute tolerance of everyone. Makes you think he's compensating for something...


Actually, I like the idea. One of the reasons that there aren't more characters with different ethnicities is because many of the popular characters at Marvel (and DC) were created 40 to 60 years ago. At the time it was just taboo. Now it's possible so why not take advantage of it?

[hunter_peterson]

I actually like the idea too, I'm just poking fun.

As for the Joker thing, I just don't see how a tyrannic ruler can be effective as the most evil guy anymore, due to the information age. They need to just be destructive for their own pleasure. Not anarchy though, just total chaos. They're different.

Think about it; does Kim Jong Il really scare you? Looking back at Hitler, Stalin ect, do you really think that they could be effective in their propaganda and enforcement with the Internet in the world? With mobile phones, sattelites and chat rooms?

Now think of this; living in any large city, if you had a local Osama Bin Laden who was blowing stuff up just 'cause he was bored, would you be afraid? If anything the information age would exacerbate the fear. Hence the chaotic terrorist is the modern definition of true evil.

[TF_loki]

I guess this officially makes the Ultimate line into just another superhero line.

Always was.

[oanswat]

Anybody have a guess at who this major villain will be? The one that miller said has been established in the 616 for over twenty years and is seen as both a bad guy and a good guy at times? That one is a stumper for me. I was thinking Kang, because I thought there was an avengers ish where he's not a bad guy yet or something.

[Tobias March]

Cautiously optimistic.

[americocaine]

Not the most original title in the world. What are they going to rename "Ultimate X-Men"? "Ultimate Wolverine and the Ultimate X-Men?".

[Killing_Joke88]

:eek: The artist for the first story is somebody Millar has never had draw his scripts, and is to big of a name for him to spoil? Can it be Jim Lee?

I highly doubt it, especially since he is trying to run Wildstorm now. I would think doing a Marvel book while running a DC Imprint would be a conflict of interests. Also, it seems hard enough for Millar to get a book out on time (Kick-Ass, Ultimates). If he started working with Jim Lee the book would never come out.

All that being said, I am really looking forward to this title, and even though I am giving Millar a hard time about getting books out on time, all the ones that are late are most definitely worth waiting for.

[Dr. Chaos]

I swear, Jim and his ambition.

God, I would do anything to see him go to work on a big Ultimate Universe project.

Well...not that.

[victor_lanza]

This will signal my return to the Ultimate Universe. :biggrin:

[Infernorhythm]

Ok, now I'm interested.

Ultimate-Spidey didn't really do anything for me (it never felt as realistic or grounded as the other Ultimate books), and I got bored with UXM and UFF after Vaughan and Millar respectively left, but I did enjoy the Ultimates. So far Origin and Ultimatum have me less then thrilled, so seeing Millar come back to the universe has me excited.

I thought they had already done the UItimate Red Skull with the Colonel from the Liberators.

[ZeoVGM]

sooooooooo tired of Millar's hype. He sells every project exactly the same way.

Yeah? All FOUR comics he's putting out right now (Kick-Ass, Fantastic Four, Old Man Logan, War Heroes) are fucking awesome and Wanted was a great movie and a HUGE hit. So he has every right to hype it up that way.

He says what he thinks. His he cocky? Yep. But he can be cocky for as long as continues to put out stuff that damn good, who cares?

[Jack Norris]

It would have been a riot if he had been asked about how he feels about Loeb ruining Ultimates. Now I know the interviewer couldn't really ask, and he clearly couldn't answer honestly due to keeping good relations with his employer, but just the idea of him being asked and having to squirm & pretend he thinks Loeb's Ultimates is just great makes me give an evil little laugh...

[BulletSpeed]

I for one am really excited about this project. Someone mentioned Jim Lee, WOW wouldnt that be something! But who realisticle do you all think the artist could be?

[ZeoVGM]

It would have been a riot if he had been asked about how he feels about Loeb ruining Ultimates. Now I know the interviewer couldn't really ask, and he clearly couldn't answer honestly due to keeping good relations with his employer, but just the idea of him being asked and having to squirm & pretend he thinks Loeb's Ultimates is just great makes me give an evil little laugh...

You realize Loeb "ruining" Ultimates isn't a fact and therefore isn't a question that should be asked, right? Maybe asking what he thinks of comic forums' reaction to the series.

But the fact is that comic fans are the most vocal about shit they hate. The book wouldn't keep selling if a lot of people didn't like it.

Personally, I'm not the typical OMG LOEB SUXXX person. Issues 1 and 2 were awesome reads. 3 and 4 disappointed me. Mediocre. That's how I see it.

[Killing_Joke88]

I for one am really excited about this project. Someone mentioned Jim Lee, WOW wouldnt that be something! But who realisticle do you all think the artist could be?

Maybe Lenil Yu. I think his work on Secret Invasion has been great, and I don't think Millar has worked with him before which was one of the criteria for the new artist.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Considering that Nazism has been dead and gone for about 60 yrs, I would definitely say the Red Skull needs updating. Bigotry is alive and well but that particular flavor isn't. There are so many ways to update him while staying true to his core. Look at all the radical right wing groups (aka Al Queada) across the world that could fill in for that type of fascism.

Sadly, I expect Millar to keep him German and a nazi sympathizer.

The Skull become a nihilist in the 80s and has adapted well to modern society, look at all the times he affected the US government and made them bend to his will. Besides how many villains have managed to kill their arch nemesis? How updated is someone who can pull off that feat?

How do you update the skull without losing what made the character work in the first place?


He could be a Chinese Communist. Or a North Korean. Or a Russian. Or Iranian. Or Latverian, even. Or just some hole. The choice of nationality is rather large, as I assume he will be a bigot from a country the USA deems as an "enemy". I'd laugh if he was Irish, the original terrorist stereotype.

But I'm not so focused on that; I'm more perplexed by Afro-Hulk. WTF? Why would you need that, unless it's a new Abomination. That'd be cool. But Millar does seem to enjoy taking 616 wasps and recoloring them for no particular reason. As if to assert his absolute tolerance of everyone. Makes you think he's compensating for something...

But that's just lame just making hm what ever enemy the states happens to have at the time, he would lack timelessness. Just making Iranian because we are mad at Iran would date him horribly dated. Look at those communist villains created in the 60s, how often does the red ghost get used now?

You aren't being creative enough, there better ways to use the Skull rather then making him some lanme Arab sterotype. There was in more then one red skull in ther 616 universe. Back in Captain America 1 in the 40s, the First Red Skull was an American arms manufacturer named George Maxon was revleaed to be a nazi spy, why not work with that version of the Skull instead of Johann Shmidt?

George Maxon an American ex pat, who is an arms dealer that is willing to take a direct hand in encouraging business, he assassinates leaders that try to promote peace, helps overthrow democracies to ensure that he can get exclusive deals with the dictatorships that will replace them, even tries to start wars between ethnic groups so he can sell weapons to both sides. He will even encourage genocide if he feels he can make a profit of it. That's more creative then him just being Iranian and more true to a version of the character (the Skull was supposed to be Maxon and was supposed to die at the end of Cap 1, till they decided the Skull was too popular to die, reconnected it so Maxon was just Johann Shmidt's agent.)

[hunter_peterson]

Those weren't suggestions. See my later post for my suggestion. And if Millar takes the Neo-Nazi route then he will most likely be American.

Hell he could be Ultimate Mel Gibson. :biggrin:

[Frank]

I always thought the perfect Skrull was already in the Millar Ultimates run when there was a man in shadows controling the invasion of America from the Louvre in France. I thought they would use the character but was never adressed after that. That guy should be The Red Skrull. He would wear only a mask in battle but the guy would be a strong, beautiful ultra intelligent psychopath geneticaly engineered and raised from birth to the be perfect Aryan and be the new Fuhrer and leader of a new, more powerful evil movement. Similar to the new Masterman "Axl Nacht" that was created by John Byrne in the 80s in the Namor books. I thought that was excellent. In UA, he would creat a new organisation and the foot soldiers would be Hydra.

[Frank]

Leinil You is an unappealing artist though and his work on SI has been questionable at best and he's not the "biggest artist in the World" like Millar said.

It would be great if Millar would do with the Avengers(and the MU) what Grant Morrison did for JLA and the DC U characters. Remember Morrison kept revamping characters and bringing old ones in the limelight and dust them off. Who would have thought anybody would do something interesting with the Shaggy Man for instance?

[ultimate hulk]

damed! miller is the shit!:biggrin: :biggrin:
i like there being only one hulk,but the loeb has ruined the ultimate hulk.
but still,i wish miller would have made the ultimate hulk better.
but,it looks like he's going to bring in a new hulk.
oh well,i have faith he's going to do a bang up job:biggrin:

p.s.hopefully this new hulk kills a lot of people:biggrin:

[Don Yoyo]

George Maxon an American ex pat, who is an arms dealer that is willing to take a direct hand in encouraging business, he assassinates leaders that try to promote peace, helps overthrow democracies to ensure that he can get exclusive deals with the dictatorships that will replace them, even tries to start wars between ethnic groups so he can sell weapons to both sides.

What I said : Roxxon Corporation :biggrin: The thing is big, really big, they create super-soldiers, weapons, kept a sample of the Venom suit, and yet everyone believes they're a pharmaceutical company...

[ultimate hulk]

there are only two writers that have awed and impressed me with their writing on the ultimate universe.
it's miller and the lost guy that was writing ultimate wolverine vs hulk.

ellis nearly impress me,but went and screwed it all up by making the ultimate hulk dumb.And to make matters worst,the ultimate hulk didn't kill and eat anyone.so,i'm not going to have ellis book as part of my ultimate hulk collection.

i still own miller ultimates 1 and 2 tpb

and i plan on owning the lost guy ultimate wolverine vs hulk book.
so that i can have all the glorious moments of the ultimate hulk :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

[ThePhenom]

there are only two writers that have awed and impressed me with their writing on the ultimate universe.

I can overlook the lack of BKV, but no Bendis?!

[ThePhenom]

It would have been a riot if he had been asked about how he feels about Loeb ruining Ultimates. Now I know the interviewer couldn't really ask, and he clearly couldn't answer honestly due to keeping good relations with his employer, but just the idea of him being asked and having to squirm & pretend he thinks Loeb's Ultimates is just great makes me give an evil little laugh...

Millar has talked about it, but rather than saying good or bad he keeps calling him "ballsy" to do something so different from their Ultimates. I think he called it like "action packed" or something too.


Leinil You is an unappealing artist though and his work on SI has been questionable at best and he's not the "biggest artist in the World" like Millar said.

While I agree that he's not the biggest artist in the world by any means Millar is probably using a bit of hyperbole, and I mean Yu is gonna be the artist on top of the charts until Secret Invasion ends at least.

[grphxkindaguy]

Loathing the delays on volumes 1 & 2 (didn't bother w/#3), I'll "wait for the trade" on any future Ultimate Avengers book from Millar and company...

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Those weren't suggestions. See my later post for my suggestion. And if Millar takes the Neo-Nazi route then he will most likely be American.

Hell he could be Ultimate Mel Gibson. :biggrin:

Neo Nazis are lame, they are just wannabes, real Nazis are a million times scarier. If Red Skull is just a neo Nazi he would suck.

[Killing_Joke88]

The new artist cold also be John Cassaday. Millar has never worked with him before and he is a pretty big deal.

[carabas]

Also, it'll allow Millar to work at the pace he's used to for Ultimates.

[rwsmith]

The good news is that he's doing four 6-part arcs, each with a different superstar artist. So the delays shouldn't be that bad since each artist will have a head-start and only has to crank out six issues total.

Personally I can't wait for this! Millar really shines when he has more creative freedom in terms of the overall universe that he's playing in (i.e., the Ultimate Universe or an alternate future like Old Man Logan).

[psm]

The Skull become a nihilist in the 80s and has adapted well to modern society, look at all the times he affected the US government and made them bend to his will. Besides how many villains have managed to kill their arch nemesis? How updated is someone who can pull off that feat?

How do you update the skull without losing what made the character work in the first place?

What does that have to do with anything I said?



But that's just lame just making hm what ever enemy the states happens to have at the time, he would lack timelessness. Just making Iranian because we are mad at Iran would date him horribly dated. Look at those communist villains created in the 60s, how often does the red ghost get used now?

You aren't being creative enough, there better ways to use the Skull rather then making him some lame Arab sterotype.

How is choosing a lame Arab stereotype any different than what the Red Skull originally was, a lame Nazi stereotype? The Red Skull isn't timeless because of the character. He's timeless because he's considered Captain America's arch enemy and Cap is timeless. The same goes for the Mandarin and the Abomination. All three which had to be modernized in the 616 to even make sense. Really, nothing is more dated than a Nazi soldier. Updating him to reflect a current enemy of the usa should have no bearing on the core of the character.

[Killing_Joke88]

The good news is that he's doing four 6-part arcs, each with a different superstar artist. So the delays shouldn't be that bad since each artist will have a head-start and only has to crank out six issues total.

Personally I can't wait for this! Millar really shines when he has more creative freedom in terms of the overall universe that he's playing in (i.e., the Ultimate Universe or an alternate future like Old Man Logan).

Good point. The delays should be cut down substantially.

Old Man Logan is one of the best things being published in comics right now. The fact that Millar can excel at writing alternate universes shows that he really understands the basics of the characters he is writing, and then he can also expand those characters into something new while remaining true to the basic principles of each character.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

What does that have to do with anything I said?
.

You said he was dated because he was a nazi, when he isn't a Nazi any more.So how is he dated





How is choosing a lame Arab stereotype any different than what the Red Skull originally was, a lame Nazi stereotype? The Red Skull isn't timeless because of the character. He's timeless because he's considered Captain America's arch enemy and Cap is timeless. The same goes for the Mandarin and the Abomination. All three which had to be modernized in the 616 to even make sense. Really, nothing is more dated than a Nazi soldier. Updating him to reflect a current enemy of the usa should have no bearing on the core of the character.

Look at Ultimate abomination though, he sucks, he is just a lame throwaway character, how is that a good update? Is that the kind of update they would do for the Skull?

Second the Skull has moved beyond just being a Nazi, to being the biggest icon of evil in the UU. Look at what he did to his daugther, what does any of that have to do with being a nazi or look at his attempts to corrupt the US government, what does that have to do nazism? Hell would an arab terrorist be sucessful at infiltration the US government?

Plus the Skull is iconic because he has so much histroy with cap, because he was his WWII nemesis and is still his nemesis.

Really how would an arab Red Skull compare to all that? He wouldn't, he wouldn't be cap's nemesis, he wouldn't have histroy or list of truly evil feats to back him up, he would be just another lame generic arab terrorist villain for Cap to fight. How can an arab history move beyonf being an political sterotype and become a true icon of evil?

[psm]

You said he was dated because he was a nazi, when he isn't a Nazi any more. So how is he dated?

Because he's still a Nazi. Yeah, they may say he's not but he believes in a fascist dictatorship and employs soldiers called the "Master Race". If it walks like a duck.....




Look at Ultimate abomination though, he sucks, he is just a lame throwaway character, how is that a good update? Is that the kind of update they would do for the Skull?

Second the Skull has moved beyond just being a Nazi, to being the biggest icon of evil in the UU. Look at what he did to his daughter, what does any of that have to do with being a nazi or look at his attempts to corrupt the US government, what does that have to do nazism? Hell would an arab terrorist be successful at infiltration the US government?

Plus the Skull is iconic because he has so much history with cap, because he was his WWII nemesis and is still his nemesis.

Really how would an arab Red Skull compare to all that? He wouldn't, he wouldn't be cap's nemesis, he wouldn't have history or list of truly evil feats to back him up, he would be just another lame generic arab terrorist villain for Cap to fight. How can an arab history move beyond being an political stereotype and become a true icon of evil?

But none of that history exists in the Ultimate U. So they would have to start from scratch anyway. Unless, they decide to reanimate him from WW2 also. Which I hope they don't. The whole point of the character was to represent the enemy the US was fighting at the time. That enemy doesn't exist anymore. So lets modernize him for the new generation with an enemy the US is currently fighting. As for the evil feats and his rise to "iconic" level that takes time.

[hotrodimus]

im actually excited about potential punisher as part of the avengers team. i recall posting awhile back to those "dream roster" threads on the avengers on having punisher.. and well i sorta got my wish.. well hopefully its true

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Because he's still a Nazi. Yeah, they may say he's not but he believes in a fascist dictatorship and employs soldiers called the "Master Race". If it walks like a duck......

What does trying to kill his daugther and then torturing her have to Nazism? What does corrupting the US government haveto do Nazism. Skull may be a racist, but he has updated his tactics for modern times and





But none of that history exists in the Ultimate U. So they would have to start from scratch anyway. Unless, they decide to reanimate him from WW2 also. Which I hope they don't. The whole point of the character was to represent the enemy the US was fighting at the time. That enemy doesn't exist anymore. So lets modernize him for the new generation with an enemy the US is currently fighting. As for the evil feats and his rise to "iconic" level that takes time.

Yeah it doesn't exist because isnstead of the Skull, Klesier is cap's WWII arch enemy and Kleiser is a vastly inferior.

No, which is why suggested going with the George Maxon version of the Skull instead of Schmidt, as an arms dealer/terrorist, at least it would be true to version of the character, it wouldn't be red Skull in name only, which is what an arab Red Skull would be. Maxon would more evil, because he wouldn't be serving a cause, he would be promoting war, terrorism and genocide, fun and profit. You are throwing out the spirit of the character if you make him some generic arab terrorist. Hell why would an arab terroirst wear an Skull mask? I could buy it with the nazis (SS members wore death head pins of their caps, so its not that far out) but why would an Arab terrorist wear a Skull? What evil things would arab Red Skull do that make him on par with 616 Skull?


Arab terrorist skull, in 2002 they tried to have cap fight an Islamic terrorist and everyone hated, left wingers and right wingers complained and everyone hated this story. So do yo really think marvel wants to go down that road again?

[psm]

What does trying to kill his daugther and then torturing her have to Nazism? What does corrupting the US government have to do Nazism. Skull may be a racist, but he has updated his tactics for modern times.

Actually, none of that has anything to do with Nazism. Trying to instill a fascist government with the underpinnings of racism does however. So he's still a Nazi underneath it all.




Yeah it doesn't exist because instead of the Skull, Klesier is cap's WWII arch enemy and Kleiser is a vastly inferior.

No, which is why suggested going with the George Maxon version of the Skull instead of Schmidt, as an arms dealer/terrorist, at least it would be true to version of the character, it wouldn't be red Skull in name only, which is what an arab Red Skull would be. Maxon would more evil, because he wouldn't be serving a cause, he would be promoting war, terrorism and genocide, fun and profit. You are throwing out the spirit of the character if you make him some generic arab terrorist. Hell why would an arab terrorist wear an Skull mask? I could buy it with the nazis (SS members wore death head pins of their caps, so its not that far out) but why would an Arab terrorist wear a Skull? What evil things would arab Red Skull do that make him on par with 616 Skull?

Arab terrorist skull, in 2002 they tried to have cap fight an Islamic terrorist and everyone hated, left wingers and right wingers complained and everyone hated this story. So do yo really think marvel wants to go down that road again?

Oh, I agree, Marvel most likely won't make him an Islamic terrorist. They won't go down that road again.

Beyond that, I totally disagree with you. A terrorist has as much reason to hide his face or inspire fear as any Nazi soldier. Not that he even has to wear a red skull to be called the Red Skull either. You are way to hung up on the current surface details for the character. Plus, I don't see how an arms dealer is closer to the core of the Red Skull. Honestly, its farther away because they are motivated by profit. The Red Skull is motivated by a hatred that's enveloped by racist/ethnic belief in their superiority. An Islamic terrorist (or any hardcore terrorist) is much closer in spirit to the character. Plus, I don't know why you think an arab character can't be as evil as the current Red Skull. What's up with that? It's fiction. They can make him as deadly and as vicious as they want.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Actually, none of that has anything to do with Nazism. Trying to instill a fascist government with the underpinnings of racism does however. So he's still a Nazi underneath it all..

But that proves he does evil things not just because he is fascist, but also because he is an evil person who hates the entire world, that's what you have to get across with the Skull. Otherwise, he isn't the Skull, he is a pale imtiation of the real thing. Nazism was just an outlet for the Skull's evil, he still would have been evil regardless, without the Nazis his evil would have just taken a different form.





Oh, I agree, Marvel most likely won't make him an Islamic terrorist. They won't go down that road again.

Beyond that, I totally disagree with you. A terrorist has as much reason to hide his face or inspire fear as any Nazi soldier. Not that he even has to wear a red skull to be called the Red Skull either. You are way to hung up on the current surface details for the character. Plus, I don't see how an arms dealer is closer to the core of the Red Skull. Honestly, its farther away because they are motivated by profit. The Red Skull is motivated by a hatred that's enveloped by racist/ethnic belief in their superiority. An Islamic terrorist (or any hardcore terrorist) is much closer in spirit to the character. Plus, I don't know why you think an arab character can't be as evil as the current Red Skull. What's up with that? It's fiction. They can make him as deadly and as vicious as they want.

A few things people can hate Nazis freely, with an Islamic villain, there always questions of whether its politically correct or not, or whether he is justified, it ruins th gut reaction you are supposed to have to the Skull. Look at that mess with the Islamic terrorists in cap in 2002, I don't want the skull to be ruined by that.

I mean you talk about updating the Skull, well he was updated in 1953, they made him communist, he was way lamer, no one liked him and he was repalced by the real Red Skull in the 60s, how is making him an islamic terrorist any different?

Also check you comic history, the first Skull introduced in 1940, was George Maxon an arms dealer/undercover nazi, so its closer to the first version of the Skull, before Schimdt was introduced. That's better then pulling some arab terrorist out your butt and calling him the Red Skull. Its closer to a version of the character, just like Ultimate Vulture is based on Blackie Drago, not the more popular Adrian Toomes, they didn't just change his name to Joe Smith for no reason. Besides Maxon's motive will be both profit and sadism, he promotes wars and tyranny, because its profitable and because he is a sadistic and evil person.

Also what's the point of calling the character Ultimater red Skull if he doesn't have the Skull face? That's his trade mark, Joker has a clown face, Lex is bald and Red Skull has a skull face. If you are not going to call him Red Skull or give him his trade mark face, then don't call him ultimate Red Skull.

[psm]

But that proves he does evil things not just because he is fascist, but also because he is an evil person who hates the entire world, that's what you have to get across with the Skull. Otherwise, he isn't the Skull, he is a pale imitation of the real thing. Nazism was just an outlet for the Skull's evil, he still would have been evil regardless, without the Nazis his evil would have just taken a different form.


Being evil just makes him a generic villain. Being a Nazi is what makes him unique. Plus, without Nazis you would have never had the Red Skull because there would have been no point in creating the character. Hell without Nazi Germany I very much doubt that Cap would have been created.



A few things people can hate Nazis freely, with an Islamic villain, there always questions of whether its politically correct or not, or whether he is justified, it ruins the gut reaction you are supposed to have to the Skull. Look at that mess with the Islamic terrorists in cap in 2002, I don't want the skull to be ruined by that.

I mean you talk about updating the Skull, well he was updated in 1953, they made him communist, he was way lamer, no one liked him and he was replaced by the real Red Skull in the 60s, how is making him an islamic terrorist any different?

Like I said, I don't expect Marvel to go that route. Plus, you are confusing things. I'm not saying that the 616 Skull should be turned into a fundamentalist islamic. I'm saying that the UU should be one or in the same vein. A very different situation. Plus, when Cap first came out, not everyone hated Germany or the Nazis. The US wasn't even at war with Germany yet. He was created as propaganda. So in reality, Cap fighting an Islamic fundamentalist is actually much closer to his roots.



Also check you comic history, the first Skull introduced in 1940, was George Maxon an arms dealer/undercover nazi, so its closer to the first version of the Skull, before Schimdt was introduced. That's better then pulling some arab terrorist out your butt and calling him the Red Skull. Its closer to a version of the character, just like Ultimate Vulture is based on Blackie Drago, not the more popular Adrian Toomes, they didn't just change his name to Joe Smith for no reason. Besides Maxon's motive will be both profit and sadism, he promotes wars and tyranny, because its profitable and because he is a sadistic and evil person.

I know my comic history. I know that George Maxon was the first skull. That still doesn't make him closer to the concept of what the Skull represents nowadays. All you are doing is repeating the details of the character. You are not repeating the concept of the character which I consider more important. At his heart the Skull (Schmidt) is a fascist bigot. He is cut from the same cloth as every other terrorist in the world. Well, maybe he's a bit smarter but I'm sure the writers can compensate for that.



Also what's the point of calling the character Ultimater red Skull if he doesn't have the Skull face? That's his trade mark, Joker has a clown face, Lex is bald and Red Skull has a skull face. If you are not going to call him Red Skull or give him his trade mark face, then don't call him ultimate Red Skull.

But it doesn't have to be the exact same trademark. It can be something else.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Being evil just makes him a generic villain. Being a Nazi is what makes him unique. Plus, without Nazis you would have never had the Red Skull because there would have been no point in creating the character. Hell without Nazi Germany I very much doubt that Cap would have been created.

No his pure evil nature makes him unique, there are tons of Nazi villains in the 616, but none of them match the malice of the red skull and his contrasted by villains who have redeeming aspects, that's why in the 616 the Skull can play off Kingpin, Mageto, Doom, as well as heroes.




Like I said, I don't expect Marvel to go that route. Plus, you are confusing things. I'm not saying that the 616 Skull should be turned into a fundamentalist islamic. I'm saying that the UU should be one or in the same vein. A very different situation. Plus, when Cap first came out, not everyone hated Germany or the Nazis. The US wasn't even at war with Germany yet. He was created as propaganda. So in reality, Cap fighting an Islamic fundamentalist is actually much closer to his roots.

If there is no chance they are going to do that, then why bring it up?

Besides they already had an Islamic villain with the Colonel, are just going to make the Skull a Colonel rip off?

Again nowadays if put in an Islamic villain, right wingers and left wingers will argue whether he is offensive or too sympathetic, that isn't the case with a Nazi.

besides at least 616 Red Skull had a back story, besides wouldn't an arab red skull be an errant boy for bin Laden, instead of a villain who desired to eventually overthrow hitler?

An arab red skull would be a vastly inferior character, he wouldn't have the style or asethics 616 Skull had (most Arab terrorists look like crap, Nazis look stylish) plus he wouldn't have the amazing tech 616 red skull has, Islamic fundamentalists have a low tech curve. How would an arab Skull pose a direct threat to Cap? Plus arab terrorists don't have skill when it comes to subtlety or corruption, like 616 Skull has, an arab terrorist could never inflirait the US government. Ultimate Maxon would at least be stylish, tech savey, subtle and have guile and be skilled in the ways of corruption. That's whatthe skull is about, not just mere ideology.








I know my comic history. I know that George Maxon was the first skull. That still doesn't make him closer to the concept of what the Skull represents nowadays. All you are doing is repeating the details of the character. You are not repeating the concept of the character which I consider more important. At his heart the Skull (Schmidt) is a fascist bigot. He is cut from the same cloth as every other terrorist in the world. Well, maybe he's a bit smarter but I'm sure the writers can compensate for that..

Okay, but would arab red skull be considered pure evil, rather some figure that just bring up debates between left and right wingers on whether he is offensive or not?

At this point in 2008, the Skull is supposed to be a symbol of evil, not just a stock propaganda figure, he has moved beyond that. So how would you pull that off.




But it doesn't have to be the exact same trademark. It can be something else.

Yeah and Lex Luthor doesn't need to bald, Joker doesn't need green hair and Dr. Octopus doesn't need metal arms, those things are irrelevant. :rolleyes:

[psm]

No his pure evil nature makes him unique, there are tons of Nazi villains in the 616, but none of them match the malice of the red skull and his contrasted by villains who have redeeming aspects, that's why in the 616 the Skull can play off Kingpin, Magneto, Doom, as well as heroes.

I disagree. I don't seem him as being more evil than the Kingpin, Ultron, Mandarin, Osborn or half a dozen other villains. He's just a bit more successful. What makes him unique is his being a nazi (and being Cap's arch enemy).



If there is no chance they are going to do that, then why bring it up?

Besides they already had an Islamic villain with the Colonel, are just going to make the Skull a Colonel rip off?

Again nowadays if put in an Islamic villain, right wingers and left wingers will argue whether he is offensive or too sympathetic, that isn't the case with a Nazi.

besides at least 616 Red Skull had a back story, besides wouldn't an arab red skull be an errant boy for bin Laden, instead of a villain who desired to eventually overthrow hitler?

I brought it up because to me it makes sense to me.

So instead of Colonel rip off you would prefer a Kleiser rip off? Plus just having the characters born in the same region doesn't make one a rip off of the other.

He would only be an errand boy if the writers choose him to be. They can make him the head of his own group. He may be a Shiite and hate Bin Laden with a passion. It's really open ended.



An arab red skull would be a vastly inferior character, he wouldn't have the style or asethics 616 Skull had (most Arab terrorists look like crap, Nazis look stylish) plus he wouldn't have the amazing tech 616 red skull has, Islamic fundamentalists have a low tech curve. How would an arab Skull pose a direct threat to Cap? Plus arab terrorists don't have skill when it comes to subtlety or corruption, like 616 Skull has, an arab terrorist could never infiltrate the US government. Ultimate Maxon would at least be stylish, tech savvy, subtle and have guile and be skilled in the ways of corruption. That's what the skull is about, not just mere ideology.

What are you talking about? Nazis look stylish?? Besides being incredibly wrong about terrorists lacking subtly, the writers would be the ones to choose how competent the character is. If they want him to have advanced technology, he'll have advanced technology. The limitations you are putting on a character because they are of arabic nature is very condescending. The same goes for Maxon. Why do you assume that this character would have all these traits? Your assumption makes no sense.


Okay, but would arab red skull be considered pure evil, rather some figure that just bring up debates between left and right wingers on whether he is offensive or not?

At this point in 2008, the Skull is supposed to be a symbol of evil, not just a stock propaganda figure, he has moved beyond that. So how would you pull that off.

That's still the province of the writer. If they want a character that's pure evil then they'll make a character that's pure evil.


Yeah and Lex Luthor doesn't need to bald, Joker doesn't need green hair and Dr. Octopus doesn't need metal arms, those things are irrelevant. :rolleyes:

And Nick Fury is white, Ghost Rider is a demon and Spiderman has mechanical webshooters. But even if you are right and he needs a red skull, I don't see any reason he couldn't wear one.

[Don Yoyo]

Besides they already had an Islamic villain with the Colonel, are just going to make the Skull a Colonel rip off?

The Colonel, an Islamic? Really? Just because he is Iranian? More like a patriot to me, not really a guy that is driven by pure faith or hate of everything that is not Islam. Nor does he seem to be a supremacist.

I don't know if it's a good idea to make a guy that is driven by religion "pure evil"... I mean, it could work, wetheir he would be muslim, anglican or catholic, but still...

[carabas]

The Colonel, an Islamic? Really? Just because he is Iranian? More like a patriot to me, not really a guy that is driven by pure faith or hate of everything that is not Islam. Nor does he seem to be a supremacist.

I don't know if it's a good idea to make a guy that is driven by religion "pure evil"... I mean, it could work, wetheir he would be muslim, anglican or catholic, but still...The Colonel was the Iranian Captain America, so yes, of bleeding couse was he a muslim. Which is not at all the same as saying he was a religiously driven, hatefull, fundmentalistic, evil supremacist. He was a muslim, and he seemed pretty much a decent guy. More likeable than Captain Does My A Stand For France for sure.

[carabas]

It is obvious really, the Ultimate Red Skull will be a corrupt, corporate, neo-con politician.

[Don Yoyo]

The Colonel was the Iranian Captain America, so yes, of bleeding couse was he a muslim.

Oh yes, I didn't mean that. But as you said, being muslim and being an Islamic aren't the same thing.


It is obvious really, the Ultimate Red Skull will be a corrupt, corporate, neo-con politician.

Not corrupt. The Red Skull should be the one to corrupt, not the one corrupted. I hope I'm right...

[carabas]

Oh yes, I didn't mean that. But as you said, being muslim and being an Islamic aren't the same thing.I don't think that word means what you think it does.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/islamic

[jrc_burgess]

The Colonel was the Iranian Captain America, so yes, of bleeding couse was he a muslim. Which is not at all the same as saying he was a religiously driven, hatefull, fundmentalistic, evil supremacist. He was a muslim, and he seemed pretty much a decent guy. More likeable than Captain Does My A Stand For France for sure.


This is very true. The Colonel does come across as the more honourable and has the morale high ground rather then Cap.

Grand Theft America often makes very uncomfortable reading for me.
While as an adventure story, pure fiction, it is one of the best comics written in the last few years. The political points though...

I like that the Colonel was a fully rounded and clearly heroic character. But still at the end of the day the bad guys were from those countries that has been opposing America recently or are genuinely considered it rivals (France, Russia, Korea, China ect.) and the good guys were the States and their pet Euro buddies (though God forbid they get any limelight). American 'heroes' invade a middle eastern country and its just morally dubious, America is invaded and all hell breaks lose, we're-having-none-of-that, hooray and lets kick the shit out of 'em.

And of course the whole A for France bit- the stupidest line in any comic for the last 20 years. Not clever and not funny. And I'm English! We've hated the French for 1000 years! Such a cheap shot for what is still probably the best arc of the best comic series I've ever read.

[Don Yoyo]

I don't think that word means what you think it does.

Okay, my bad. "Islamique" in my language is pretty close, and I thought it designated the extremist (which it doesn't actually, which makes me double an idiot).


This is very true. The Colonel does come across as the more honourable and has the morale high ground rather then Cap.

He is also a lot younger, more idealistic...


But still at the end of the day the bad guys were from those countries that has been opposing America recently or are genuinely considered it rivals (France, Russia, Korea, China ect.) and the good guys were the States and their pet Euro buddies (though God forbid they get any limelight).

I still don't get it : where is it stated that the Schizoid Man is french? I have read only the hardcovers, and I never saw that particular bit of information about him. All throughout the hardcover, his nationality is never stated...


American 'heroes' invade a middle eastern country and its just morally dubious

Weren't the people from the European initiative there too?

[jrc_burgess]

I still don't get it : where is it stated that the Schizoid Man is french? I have read only the hardcovers, and I never saw that particular bit of information about him. All throughout the hardcover, his nationality is never stated...



Weren't the people from the European initiative there too?


Well The Schizoid Man being French is heavily implied in the scene where the Liberators are introduced. He's the only team member not associated with a nation except for a military figure who says to the Chairman "We gave you him", and as the meeting in being held in Paris.... I mean its not conclusive but it is rather strong evidence.

Rereading the scene has also reminded me of something else. The Russian guy is described as "basically a Soviet Thor". Now considering the Soviet Union is dead and gone isn't that rather on the nose. Yes we all know America hates Russia blah blah but still, its not exactly subtle. All they really needed was a Nazi and the whole gallery of America's favourite rogues would have been complete.

And actually yes, I believe the Euro-Captains were there too. It rather underlines what I was saying about them being minor characters. A given as back up for whatever SHEILD (which is clearly and distinctly an American organisation in the Ulti-verse) is upto. Much like what Britain is to the States in real life sadly.



BTW I just invented the term Ulti-verse and I'm rather pleased with it :biggrin:

[Don Yoyo]

Well The Schizoid Man being French is heavily implied in the scene where the Liberators are introduced. He's the only team member not associated with a nation except for a military figure who says to the Chairman "We gave you him", and as the meeting in being held in Paris.... I mean its not conclusive but it is rather strong evidence.

Yeah I thought of that too, but there has always been one thing that bugged me with this clue : the hat the guy wore. I can't say I'm an expert, but I'm pretty sure that the higher up (or even those just below) in the french military don't wear those... plus the guy was slightly overweight, and that's a trait you find more commonly in the russian military (and this I'm sure of) :confused:

[Chachi]

looking forward to this series. When does it begin? March?

[Eye in the Sky]

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/100813-Loeb-Report-1.html


While Mark Millar is returning to the Ultimate Universe with Ultimate Avengers, Jeph will be writing a series called New Ultimates with a cast to be determined from the outcome of Ultimatum.

[rwsmith]

I hope that was a joke, as New Ultimates sounds kind of lame. And with Millar probably using all of the big guns for Ultimate Avengers, it would seem kind of redundant for Loeb to just copy the Bendis New Avengers formula (i.e., throwing Cap, Spider-man, Wolverine and Iron Man on the same team).

If he is going to call it New Ultimates, I hope it's very different than New Avengers.

[carabas]

It's written by Jeph Loeb. Regardles of whether you like him or not, I fail to see how it can be remotely similar to New Avengers.