Founding Members - Why do the X-Men celebrate them so little?

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I've been thinking about this quite a bit recently. We've had X-Men First Class as an ongoing for a while now, and we've got this occasional series of X-Men Origins, but why is it that when it comes the original 5 X-Men these days they only really seem to get some proper focus in actual modern continuity via one shots, or back-up stories, or a limited series that has no real tie to the ongoing books?

And yet the X-Men 'family' (Although it's been a good long while since really been one of those) continues to grow. New characters are created with incredible frequency, old enemies defect to the X-Men's way of thinking, satellite team characters get brought into the main fold...

Why is, though, that there seems to be so little room for the original cast, or even the All-New All-Different cast members to get a proper airing (I mean Collosus and Nightcrawler are there, but what do they actually get to do these days in the main books?

I find it hard to think of any other ongoing team book where so little respect is given for the original or classic lineup of a team. No matter what happens to The Avengers, for example, you can feel pretty sure that the likes of Captain America, Iron Man, and The Wasp WILL figure. Characters like Cap or Thor will occasionally be out of the picture while receiving some redevelopment, but you know it's only a matter of time.

You always know who is going to be at the heart of the JLA or JSA. Hell, even Image and Wildstorm's team books have a greater sense of loyalty towards characters than the X-Men do!

It seems that over the last 10 years in particular, the X-Men has begun to fixate on showcasing the flavour of the week characters at the expense of the greater whole. Team lineups are lucky to last six months, characters don't stick around long enough to develop and there just doesn't feel like there's any real sense of who and what the X-Men are, anymore. There's so little in terms of roots, but an almost constant sense of uprooting. Before Messiah Complex, I feel, that the X-Men was going through it's most consistent and well-rounded period since the late 90s. X-Men and New X-Men were particularly strong. All the books seemed to be interacting well, pulling together as a whole. You could even excuse Astonishing's poor release schedule.

And yet this period really lasted not much longer than a year. All change, again!

What we have now is a series of mixed titles pulling in different directions which, while several are still quite strong, are either very separate from each other or step on each other's continuity.

And where are the original five?

Well, Beast is frequently little more than a background character - consulted, but not nearly as pro-active as he should be. At least he seems to be getting some of his dexterity back, but he's still not really active.

Angel is one guy in Uncanny, another guy in this mini series, and back to being Archangel in X-Force!?! What? Get your continuity matching, for God's sake!

Jean is dead. Although Emma is so frequently written AS Jean that you have to wonder why Marvel just won't get on with it and revive her...

Iceman is seemingly in limbo, after a great year and a half of being treated like he mattered by Carey. A shocking waste.

And Scott? Well, he's getting a big push, but I;m really not feeling this sudden flip out in terms of character. Scott is NOT bad ass. He's not supposed to be. But that doesn't make him lame or uninteresting. By the same token you could call Captain America lame and uninteresting. He seem,s to sell pretty well...

Cyclops is a leader. The only reason he's suffered as a character is through editorial not allowing him to interact with the characters he has actual ties to -Havoc, Rachel, Cable, Vulcan. Hell, his father's dead - has he been shown to react to it? No. Why wasn't he THERE!?

I just don't understand why the X-editors can't see that constant throwaway reinvention of the X-men is a waste of time. There's a reason the books don't sell like they used to - it's because ultimately they no longer have a point. They don't matter anymore, because the constant re-arranging of the books has killed a lot of confidence in them.

What the X-books need for their continued survival is not just consistency, but a sense of their own self-worth. And that is only possible if you build up the lore of the classic characters. And that shouldn't be happening in one-shots or limited series. It HAS to happen in THE core book. The original five are far far from bring or done to death. That's a lazy and tedious excuse, and they wouldn't have survived so long if there was even an element of truth in that. It all comes down to how they well they are written, and how much focus is actually given to them.

Just look at what a writer like Geoff Johns has done at DC with so much of their crappy continuity. He's made Green Lantern credible and JSA? 10 years ago would have been considered a dying, too old and decrepid to ever sell again. Look at it now. Likewise, at Marvel, The Avengers was dying on its arse before Bendis. Love him or hate him, you can't deny he's turned them into a brand that works.

Just because a character is envisaged 30, 40, 50 years ago, doesn't mean they're not still great characters. But you've got to sell it to people through good writing, a solid plan, and sticking to it. Right now, I can't help but feel that the X-Men are failing because the whole premise is being built so largely on the characters who weren't part of the X-Men's foundation - the characters who came later, many of who didn't care much for the concept of the team. The problem with that is that it creates a very aimless and purposeless set of books. And how can you sell those books to new readers? There is no hook.

Am I wrong to feel this way?

Discuss, people.

[claimtosubclaim]

.
Angel is one guy in Uncanny, another guy in this mini series, and back to being Archangel in X-Force!?! What? Get your continuity matching, for God's sake!


The continuity is actually fine. The first arc of X-Force takes place prior to UXM #500, and Angel can now revert between feathered and metal wings, which is how he destroyed the sentinel off-panel in #500. The mini-series features the same guy. It just takes place in the past.

Anyhoo... Iceman and Angel, who are my two top faves, are nowhere near as popular as the X-Men that are currently getting the spotlight, and as a result they haven't been on the A-Team. Another problem is that most writers don't seem to know what to do with those two, so they either
a.) revert them back to their ancient ways: one-note jokester; billionaire playboy,
or
b.) re-hash stories that they lived out during their peak of popularity: Bobby's power limits being tested by a semi-villain (Black Tom, Emma, Mystique); Warren becoming the metal-winged blue-skinned angsty Archangel.

I'm personally willing to roll with Carey, Yost and Kyle's current arcs with these two old timers though. Even if I don't agree with the direction, at least it'll be written well.

[darknessatnoon]

It's really rude how the X-Editors only put Sage in one book at a time given her importance in the founding team. I will go so far as to say that -- apart from Cyclops -- she does get the most respect (panel time) of all the 05.

[timbox]

It might have something to do with the O5 being ridiculously boring.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

The continuity is actually fine. The first arc of X-Force takes place prior to UXM #500, and Angel can now revert between feathered and metal wings, which is how he destroyed the sentinel off-panel in #500. The mini-series features the same guy. It just takes place in the past.

I'm not saying it's impossible to place them all into continuity, but it does seem a really odd way to do things. It also doesn't help to sell the character.

Anyhoo... Iceman and Angel, who are my two top faves, are nowhere near as popular as the X-Men that are currently getting the spotlight, and as a result they haven't been on the A-Team.

And that's part of what I have a problem with. So much of the X-Men titles see to be led forward by 'Who's flavour of the month, this month?' We have too many X-Men to have on one book, or even several. I'd rather have a smaller core team with a proper sense of direction and purpose, and other unconnected satellite teams - providing there was a reasion for them to exist.

Another problem is that most writers don't seem to know what to do with those two, so they either
a.) revert them back to their ancient ways: one-note jokester; billionaire playboy,
or
b.) re-hash stories that they lived out during their peak of popularity: Bobby's power limits being tested by a semi-villain (Black Tom, Emma, Mystique); Warren becoming the metal-winged blue-skinned angsty Archangel.

I'd agree. Most modern writers really do seem to struggle getting a handle on them. But rather than try they tend to ignore them. At least Carey gave a toss about Iceman for as long as the book was allowed that direction.

It's really rude how the X-Editors only put Sage in one book at a time given her importance in the founding team. I will go so far as to say that -- apart from Cyclops -- she does get the most respect (panel time) of all the 05.

Don't even start me on Sage. When a character so crudely retconned in can even be considered worthy of page time ahead of the original 5 there was something fundamentally rotten with the X-Books. Let Claremont keep her on eXiles. It's better than the alternative.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

It might have something to do with the O5 being ridiculously boring.

But that's just it - they're not. All five have plenty of scope, but the current crop of writers either cannot or won't get a handle of them.

The O5 should be Icons, characters who are important enough that you could put them beyond the X-books, and have them join The Avengers, if they wanted. Beast did it!

But the way in which the X-Titles seem to throw characters away after even ten years, now, is why the X-Men has shifted from a success story to a failure, in my opinion.

[timbox]

Don't even start me on Sage. When a character so crudely retconned in can even be considered worthy of page time ahead of the original 5 there was something fundamentally rotten with the X-Books. Let Claremont keep her on eXiles. It's better than the alternative.

How quickly we forget. Maybe they should crudely retcon Sage out of New Excalibur and see how they get slaughtered without her.

[timbox]

But that's just it - they're not. All five have plenty of scope, but the current crop of writers either cannot or won't get a handle of them.


Cyclops is the only member of the O5 who was ever in a position to have any significant importance. The others (beside Sage) have all been accessories.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

How quickly we forget. Maybe they should crudely retcon Sage out of New Excalibur and see how they get slaughtered without her.

If they had then maybe we'd have had a half decent character, like Blade or the Black Knight, on the book. You know, guys who don't need to be plot devices to be of use to a team. :rolleyes:

My point is that Sage detracts from, rather than expands upon, the original set-up of the X-Men.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Cyclops is the only member of the O5 who was ever in a position to have any significant importance. The others (beside Sage) have all been accessories.

So, you're seriously telling me that you couldn't see Beast, Angel, Iceman, or Phoenix as playing a larger role in the marvel universe? Even though several have, and others have far greater power than the majorirty of the other X-Characters all together?:confused:

[claimtosubclaim]

Hey, I'm all for the surviving 05 being at the forefront. It probably won't happen though. I remember when promises were made that Civil War: X-Men would be the Cyclops/Beast/Iceman/Angel showcase, and only Cyclops had more than 4 lines throughout the whole miniseries. I'm relatively sure that Carey's book will be shifting to a more ensemble focus and Iceman will be a part of it, but it's too bad that Carey doesn't care for Warren. We'll just have to wait and see what Yost & Kyle have up their sleeves. The playboy Warren in UXM is as good as dead to me though. Beast will allegedly be doing big things in Astonishing, and Cyke is doing just fine, although he could be a bit less of a cold, calculating asshole in some of the books.

[darknessatnoon]

So, you're seriously telling me that you couldn't see Beast, Angel, Iceman, or Phoenix as playing a larger role in the marvel universe? Even though several have, and others have far greater power than the majorirty of the other X-Characters all together?:confused:

How are the Beast or Angel super-powerful? Iceman's incompetence and Jean's mental distress negate their capabilities.

[timbox]

So, you're seriously telling me that you couldn't see Beast, Angel, Iceman, or Phoenix as playing a larger role in the marvel universe? Even though several have, and others have far greater power than the majorirty of the other X-Characters all together?:confused:

Endangered Species nailed home the fact that Beast has nothing to offer mutants on a large scale. Angel and Iceman have done..... nothing.... ever.

Phoenix as a cosmic force might have large-scale consequences, but what importance to mutants?

[claimtosubclaim]

The power of scientific genius and business acumen should not be ignored!

[nikbackm]

But that's just it - they're not. All five have plenty of scope, but the current crop of writers either cannot or won't get a handle of them.

The O5 should be Icons, characters who are important enough that you could put them beyond the X-books, and have them join The Avengers, if they wanted. Beast did it!

But the way in which the X-Titles seem to throw characters away after even ten years, now, is why the X-Men has shifted from a success story to a failure, in my opinion.

So, why was the first X-Men run with the O5 basically canceled then if they are so great?

[claimtosubclaim]

Angel and Iceman have done..... nothing.... ever.


Angel ran Mutants Sans Frontiers, single-handedly stopped the mass import of the Kick drug into the US, led the takedown of X-Corps when half its members turned traitor, was helping rebuild Genosha, and speaking at G8 summits before House of M happened.

[Trentr]

PHNjcmlwdD5hbGVydCgnVHJlbnQgd2FzIGhlcmUgXFwgVm9pZG Uub3JnJyk8L3NjcmlwdD4=

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Hey, I'm all for the surviving 05 being at the forefront. It probably won't happen though. I remember when promises were made that Civil War: X-Men would be the Cyclops/Beast/Iceman/Angel showcase, and only Cyclops had more than 4 lines throughout the whole miniseries.

That was quite a disappointment, I have to agree. I think part of the problem now is that the O5 symbolise the X-Men very much as a family. But the overall vision of the books right now is to drive against that - to be a dysfunctional family at best, with no grandpa Xavier, and even the logical mum and dad pairing of Scott and Jean smashed by an affair...

It's a bit sad, really. When you're running a team founded on surly kids, who break off to do what they want, it only lasts so long.

I'm relatively sure that Carey's book will be shifting to a more ensemble focus and Iceman will be a part of it, but it's too bad that he doesn't care for Warren. We'll just have to wait and see what Yost & Kyle have up their sleeves.

Indeed. I'd actually much prefer that Legacy became more of a team book over time. Maybe with the New Mutants more involved, also.

The playboy Warren in UXM is as good as dead to me though.

I dunno. There's this part of me that likes Warren as kind of Tony Stark figure to the X-Men, bankrolling them. But he needs to be more than JUST that.

Beast will allegedly be doing big things in Astonishing, and Cyke is doing just fine, although he could be a bit less of a cold, calculating asshole in some of the books.

Yeah. Cold calculated Scott is becoming a bit dull, to me. He's trying TOO hard. I really wish that they'd let him interact with the people who actually matter, though. It's like he has this whole family he's not allowed to associate with, right now, and it's so utterly illogical to me.

[timbox]

Angel ran Mutants Sans Frontiers, single-handedly stopped the mass import of the Kick drug into the US, led the takedown of X-Corps when half its members turned traitor, was helping rebuild Genosha, and speaking at G8 summits before House of M happened.

Kick would have been beneficial to mutants. This shows Angel's severe lack of forward-thinking.

[claimtosubclaim]

Steroids are beneficial to athletes. Doesn't make it right.

If you're referring to Decimation though, Kick still exists, and it's likely that they've already tested whether or not it would jump start a de-powered mutant's powers.

[darknessatnoon]

Steroids are beneficial to athletes. Doesn't make it right.

What makes it wrong? Look how powerful Kick made Magneto?

[claimtosubclaim]

And then he tried to destroy New York.

[darknessatnoon]

I am going to give a more serious answer to the question.

Founding members are not the ones who brought the vast majority of readers to this comic. It was canceled and relaunched. Apart from Cyclops, and occasionally Jean (who died only a few years later), the 05 formation was not the team most of us grew up with. Hank Pym and Wasp may be characters currently in the Avengers line-up, but even today you can't get a Hank Pym appearance without referencing the wife-slapping that took him out of comics for years. Thor only recently came back after a long comic book hiatus, and Captain America wasn't always a high-seller. It's difficult to change the Fantastic Four's status given that it's a family team. It happens, but even for storytelling purposes team changes are contrived. The 05 were simply not the X-Men team that became successful and in that way they are less iconic than other silver age teams.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

How are the Beast or Angel super-powerful? Iceman's incompetence and Jean's mental distress negate their capabilities.

Both Iceman and Jean are Omega Class Mutants. Their potential powers are almost limitless. And Jean is far from mentally unstable.

Beast is a former Avenger and expert in mutant genetics. He has a lot of contacts, and profile in the MU. He couldn't fix the mutant problem, granted. But only because it can't be fixed, right now, niot because he is incompetent.

Angel also has profile and money. The Defenders ad Mutants sans Frontiers being great examples of that mopney being applied to actual cause.

Angel and Iceman have done..... nothing.... ever.

They have, Timbox. Probably not in Comics you have read, but the above examples are backers for that.

Phoenix as a cosmic force might have large-scale consequences, but what importance to mutants?

The Phoenix force is far bigger than Mutants.

The power of scientific genius and business acumen should not be ignored!

Too true.

So, why was the first X-Men run with the O5 basically canceled then if they are so great?

Because, at the time, the writers had run out of ideas. They were tring to do traditional superhero stories with mutant characters - without realising that the true potwential of mutant centric stories was far greater. When Claremont realised that, with his relaunch in the 70s, a winning formula was struck. However, by that time several of the O5 were on other titles.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Double Post.

[nikbackm]

Because, at the time, the writers had run out of ideas. They were tring to do traditional superhero stories with mutant characters - without realising that the true potwential of mutant centric stories was far greater. When Claremont realised that, with his relaunch in the 70s, a winning formula was struck. However, by that time several of the O5 were on other titles.

Yes, but with the X-Men being a mutant team, wouldn't an evolving team roster be quite logical and fit the concept rather well? :smile:

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Founding members are not the ones who brought the vast majority of readers to this comic. It was canceled and relaunched. Apart from Cyclops, and occasionally Jean (who died only a few years later), the 05 formation was not the team most of us grew up with. Hank Pym and Wasp may be characters currently in the Avengers line-up, but even today you can't get a Hank Pym appearance without referencing the wife-slapping that took him out of comics for years. Thor only recently came back after a long comic book hiatus, and Captain America wasn't always a high-seller. It's difficult to change the Fantastic Four's status given that it's a family team. It happens, but even for storytelling purposes team changes are contrived. The 05 were simply not the X-Men team that became successful and in that way they are less iconic than other silver age teams.

There is a certain amount of truth in that. Although I would point out that the later success of the X-Men came more from the change of approach than cast. It wasn''t until the Claremont years that the idea of exploring Mutants in more detail, and making mutant centric plots, really came into its own. The reason that the original Uncanny didn't work was more down to shoving the team up against unrelated non-mutant B and C list villains (Cobalt Man, the Locust, Frankenstien etc...) rather than give them a more dedicate realm and rogues gallery.

By the time Claremont took over of the original five X-Men only 2 were truly available. There were plans for Angel and Icemen on Defenders, and Beast was already ON Avengers. If the original 5 had had a writer who had glimpsed the bigger picture maybe they would have survived longer?

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Yes, but with the X-Men being a mutant team, wouldn't an evolving team roster be quite logical and fit the concept rather well? :smile:

To a degree. But in discarding the original characters is that you waste a lot more opportunity for dramatic bickering and in-fighting.:biggrin: I'd have loved to see a number of the stories Claremont told in the first 3 years of his tenure haaviong included the O5.

[Charybdis4]

I am going to give a more serious answer to the question.

Founding members are not the ones who brought the vast majority of readers to this comic. It was canceled and relaunched. Apart from Cyclops, and occasionally Jean (who died only a few years later), the 05 formation was not the team most of us grew up with. Hank Pym and Wasp may be characters currently in the Avengers line-up, but even today you can't get a Hank Pym appearance without referencing the wife-slapping that took him out of comics for years. Thor only recently came back after a long comic book hiatus, and Captain America wasn't always a high-seller. It's difficult to change the Fantastic Four's status given that it's a family team. It happens, but even for storytelling purposes team changes are contrived. The 05 were simply not the X-Men team that became successful and in that way they are less iconic than other silver age teams.

This is a really good answer, even though it makes me a bit sad reading it.

I love the 05, in particular the latter run of X_Factor was fantastic. There is a great dynamic when the 5 of them are together.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

This is a really good answer, even though it makes me a bit sad reading it.

I love the 05, in particular the latter run of X_Factor was fantastic. There is a great dynamic when the 5 of them are together.

Indeed. It really saddens me, though, that Marvel don't seem interested in letting it show out in the core books. They're much more interested in trying to force Scott and Emma down our throats, issue in and issue out. And while those two remain a focus the O5 will probably never get shown together.

[frog]

There's still plenty of love for the 05 - a few posters saying that they are now irrelevent doesn't make it so. They may not always be front and center but they continue to play important roles.

Cyclops and Beast are core team members and just about everything that the X-Men do is based on their contributions. Iceman and Angel don't always get the full treatment but renewed attention is being given to Angel, and I predict the same for Iceman soon. And if you think Jean Grey isn't going to come back you are only kidding yourself.

The old guard should always be around to guide the newer generations.

[AcesX1X]

The Sword Is Drawn,

Is this your way of saying you think there are too many minorities in the X-Men titles?

[Jack Flash]

For the most part I find them to be poor characters that are mostly poorly written. I am not saying trash them. Beast was brilliant under Morrison for example.

They just weren't the characters that most of us (and I mean X-Book and comic book people in general) fell in love with. There is a reason their series failed and why the All New Team was the break out hit.

That said, change is good. another reason to intro new blood.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

The Sword Is Drawn,

Is this your way of saying you think there are too many minorities in the X-Men titles?

Not at all.

It's my way of saying that we've had too many new X-Men over the last 20 odd years to possibly use them all. And that I feel the constant need give them all some coverage has resulted in a serious loss of direction for the X-Titles.

We often hear folks on here bemoaning that the bigwigs at Marvel have something major against the X-Men, and that they're sick of all the focus on the Avengers. But the Avengers titles, right now, to me are doing so many things right. There's a good balance between Classic Silver Age characters and popular characters from the 70s being used in a manner which is enjoyable to read.

I feel that there is such strength in both the O5 and the all-new all-different teams, when they interact. But we don't get to see it enough. There's far too much standing around in the background from the likes of Angel, Iceman, Nightcrawler and Colossus.

The only reason any of those characters would be hard to write is if you're a lazy writer.

[xgeek52]

wow...i get up and there's a humdinger of a thread...

brian would love this...

okay...i love the o5, always have and always will...but they have not gotten their just due from the marvel editors...yes, their initial run was a bust but in retrospect i think it was the editors and writers didn't know what to do with them...claremont was the one who attached an identity to the x-men but by that time the o5 were indeed scattered...

but that doesn't make them any less significant...

do i want them play a larger role in the mutant universe, yes...scott has accepted his mantle as heir apparent...hank -- while you don't see him much -- is going to play a much more significant role (hey i can see the signs)...warren is back, doing what he does best -- being a playboy (i like that about him) making money and throwing away money...and bobby is on his way back...

and like frog said if you think jean is not coming back -- well what she said...

after 45 years the dynamics of the x-men are ever changing...some of it i haven't liked...and to be perfectly honest i can't see the editors having the o5 center stay except for scott...

but when 2009 rolls around, expect that to change to a degree...i'm seein' the signs...they may not be center stage but their characters will truely play a larger roll...

[KJ_81]

I was thrilled to read an interview during the Kelly/Seagle run, where they talked about re-establishing the importance of the First Five.

Shame most of that fizzled out. :(

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I was thrilled to read an interview during the Kelly/Seagle run, where they talked about re-establishing the importance of the First Five.

Shame most of that fizzled out. :(

I totally agree. Those guys really did understand the O5's importance. If only they'd gotten to run with it more.

[Canemacar]

I agree with your point that the franchise needs fewer reboots to give it back a sense of purpose and identity. I disagree in thinking it is the O5 that give the franchise those things.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I agree with your point that the franchise needs fewer reboots to give it back a sense of purpose and identity. I disagree in thinking it is the O5 that give the franchise those things.

I don't believe that they are a fix solution, or the only thing that will, but I do feel that it's important to have them there - as part of an overall unity of team and purpose.

[pariah-1972]

I think that the O5 should be used as teachers and leaders for the school and the students and leave the figh
ting to the newer younger hipper characters personally.
The o5 seem to have fallen into certain ruts like cyclops spends most of his time boinking Emma and Angel spends most of his time doing money/business stuff.


I liked how the original x-factor took in all these kids and were trying to deal with shaping them up into prime x-men.

Part of the problem is the original x-men stories were crap even by silly silver age standards.

And also Jean being dead again makes things weird.

I was looking forward to the o5 getting back together during there civil war mini series but even that seemed more interested in the other characters.

[tetragene]

I really don't feel that the O5 are gagging for that much attention in the current core books, or have that much in the past. Cyclops & Beast have benefitted a lot from AXM. Jean being tied to that damn flaming parrot means anytime she shows up she will immediately be pushed to the forefront and every X-character in existance besides Emma will wax poetic about how great she is--and she certainly didn't suffer much in NXM. If anything I think Iceman & Angel have gotten the least attention--but with Angel being in both UXM & X-Force and Iceman beig in every Manifest Destiny issue & allegedly up for playing a prominent role beyond I don't think that'll be a problem for long--but they'll probably always take a back seat to Cyke, Jean & Beast.

I really...really...REALLY wish they would stop with the retrospective books on the O5 though. Good God, enough is enough. Give us a retrospective series on the ANAD or Aussie teams for once.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I think that the O5 should be used as teachers and leaders for the school and the students and leave the figh
ting to the newer younger hipper characters personally.

I think that your comment there, Pariah, actually highlights something very important. By rights how old are the O5, exactly? I don't see themm as being particularly old. 30 at an absolute push, but that's not terribly believable. The sliding scale of each new an younger generation of X-Men is making things very confusing, and incredibly difficult to place.

The o5 seem to have fallen into certain ruts like cyclops spends most of his time boinking Emma and Angel spends most of his time doing money/business stuff.

I think though, that Angel could be expanded on. He should be the public face of the X-Men - the golden haired poster guy with the pretty mutation, who's easy on the public eye. Until it turns nasty. The potential for Warren to need to become more media savvy could be interesting to explore.

Part of the problem is the original x-men stories were crap even by silly silver age standards.

Some of them were. The later, sentinel based, stories were much better. But better because they actually started realising the potential of metant-specific stories. That's the X-Men's chief strength.

And also Jean being dead again makes things weird.

You know that's not going to last.

I was looking forward to the o5 getting back together during there civil war mini series but even that seemed more interested in the other characters.

Indeed. Moreso on Bishop, and his team, than anything else.

[AcesX1X]

Beast celebrated his 30th birthday in 1994, so take that how you please.

[frog]

I don't really know why the 05's age should push them out of the picture for any reason. They are probably in their 30's, and have always been in good physical shape (excepting Jean being alive at the moment). They have much to offer the younger generations as mentors but are still perfectly capable of being active members of teams themselves.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Beast celebrated his 30th birthday in 1994, so take that how you please.

Really? Now that's actually prwetty interesting, because I don't recal any recent milestones being celebrated in X-Men titles. It's avoided for obvious continuity reasons.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I don't really know why the 05's age should push them out of the picture for any reason. They are probably in their 30's, and have always been in good physical shape (excepting Jean being alive at the moment). They have much to offer the younger generations as mentors but are still perfectly capable of being active members of teams themselves.

Yeah. I mean there's no reason they can't be used because they're not teens, anymore. It never stopped Peter Parker.

Or Wolverine, for that matter...

[AcesX1X]

Really? Now that's actually prwetty interesting, because I don't recal any recent milestones being celebrated in X-Men titles. It's avoided for obvious continuity reasons.

Yes, really. (pre-apologies to frog!) It was back when Xavier put Beast in charge of the school, and Revanche was still around, and Gambit had a smoking-in-the-house problem.

Beast was making comments about how he felt old and he was celebrating his 30th birthday. The search for a cure to the Legacy Virus was taking its toll on him.

[First Appearance]

I think the originals should be martyrs, dying for the dream.

That way they can all get a statue and be appreciated every time UXM has a landscape shot of the mansion.

[frog]

I think the originals should be martyrs, dying for the dream.

That way they can all get a statue and be appreciated every time UXM has a landscape shot of the mansion.

What mansion?

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Yes, really. (pre-apologies to frog!) It was back when Xavier put Beast in charge of the school, and Revanche was still around, and Gambit had a smoking-in-the-house problem.

Beast was making comments about how he felt old and he was celebrating his 30th birthday. The search for a cure to the Legacy Virus was taking its toll on him.

You know, now that you mention it, I can even picture the panels. I don't recall an age being mentioned, but to be hinest back then I probably wouldn't have been paying attention.

I think the originals should be martyrs, dying for the dream.

That way they can all get a statue and be appreciated every time UXM has a landscape shot of the mansion.

That's harsh. :biggrin:

[maigen]

What mansion?

Touche!

I agree they should be teachers and support characters. I never really cared that much for the first five.

I liked Bobby but he gets annoying after a while. Besides I still want him to be gay.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I liked Bobby but he gets annoying after a while. Besides I still want him to be gay.

It's still never going to happen, though. Wonder how he'd react if he found out Logan actually left Mystique for dead?

[Brett P]

Whilst I agree the X-books and line ups change far too often, I think this accusation of having no set direction and no respect for the 05 has come at a strange time indeed...

For one, everything that's happened over the past couple of years has been leading into where the books are now, which IS a very specific new direction. They've been working and building towards the very thing you are complaining that there isn't.

Brubaker and Fraction have been put in place for what looks to be a long and well planned out run whilst Ellis is adding to it in his series and Carey ties up the loose ends of the important people who are left over.

As for the 05...again, the timing seems strange. Warren is getting more focus than he has in years, appearing in 2 ongoing books and a mini fleshing out his origin. His new transformation and ability to change between forms ensures lots of future use for him.

Carey as you say, had a lot of time for Iceman and he may only not be on a team now cos they could be keeping him on hold until Legacy is over and Carey can work him back into the book. Even if not, he's currently getting a 5 part Carey penned story which equates to a two issue mini spotlighting him so he's certainly not forgotten.

Beast is appearing in both Uncanny and Astonishing, Cyclops is more prominent than he's ever been, Jeans return can't be far off and she's still referenced so definately not forgotten...

It's not like Nightcrawler or Colossus have had loads of spotlight in recent time, Rogue and Gambit have been equally shafted when it comes to panel time, Kitty's floating in space, the New Mutants have suffered extreme amounts of limbo time not to mention other characters like Dazzler, Husk, Sunfire and other assorted X characters...I think the 05 are doing alright for themselves personally!

[maigen]

It's still never going to happen, though. Wonder how he'd react if he found out Logan actually left Mystique for dead?

He'd be devastated.

He loves her. She can morph into a man and yet she's still kinda of woman so he gets a two for one.

Really.

[Leirus]

It's still never going to happen, though. Wonder how he'd react if he found out Logan actually left Mystique for dead?

I would know how would Nightcrawler react

I think that the Giant Size mutants stole the show from the O5. Angel really has been scarcely used if we do not look the original X-Factor. Iceman has been all this time evolving and de-evolving. Only lately has he received the deserved attention.

Storm used to be also a constant presence, but she stop evolving more or less around X-men 1#... (IMO)

Now, with Jean dead, we have the series centered in Wolverine Emma and Cyclops. I am a bit fed up of that... My hope is that Carey´s book will give the others a place to shine, we he finishes Xavier´s reconstruction.

[lockerogue]

What mansion?

I thought they had a mansion and a base. Someone needs to clear this up.

[frog]

I thought they had a mansion and a base. Someone needs to clear this up.

The mansion is currently in ruins and the new base is in San Francisco - where have you been? :biggrin:

[timbox]

I'm sure King Warren has a mansion laying around that they could make use of.

[lockerogue]

The mansion is currently in ruins and the new base is in San Francisco - where have you been? :biggrin:

I know the other mansion was blown. I thought they built another one in SF along with another school. Dammit I'm so confused with this whole SF thing.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I know the other mansion was blown. I thought they built another one in SF along with another school. Dammit I'm so confused with this whole SF thing.

I'm afraid there is no school, anymore.

[frog]

I know the other mansion was blown. I thought they built another one in SF along with another school. Dammit I'm so confused with this whole SF thing.

I think that Warren has a hi-rise they are using as well as the base in San Francisco.

[lockerogue]

I'm afraid there is no school, anymore.

I know they built some education facility thingy.

You know that dexterity thing with Beast right. Do think they are trying to revert him back into his ape form. But his cat Beast powers.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

You know that dexterity thing with Beast right. Do think they are trying to revert him back into his ape form. But his cat Beast powers.

I think it's a proper compromise job, here. They're going to keep him looking like the illogical big fuzzy cat, but they are going to give him back the ape dexterity. Therefore making the reasoning for a proper reversion to his ape form (Which wins by a landslide in every fan poll) a lot less credible. :frown:

[frog]

I know they built some education facility thingy.

You know that dexterity thing with Beast right. Do think they are trying to revert him back into his ape form. But his cat Beast powers.

Quesada said in one of his Cup'o'Joes that there are no plans to revert Beast back, so I don't know what Fraction's planning. It was silly as Beast hasn't really been having problems other than he can't play guitar. He does have thumbs, it's another digit that's missing.

[Swashbuckler]

As far as the O5 go, I think some people just run out of ideas for them. I mean, they've had to most happen to them. They starred in the original series for 60 some issues all with original stories, then they joined other teams and then re-grouped for X-Factor. They haven't been left out of the MU. Beast, Angel and Iceman have all been on non-X teams. I think the issue is that people want to tell an original story, and they don't want to repeat an old plot that's been used on the charcter before.

[LawGiver]

I know the other mansion was blown. I thought they built another one in SF along with another school. Dammit I'm so confused with this whole SF thing.

How can it be confusing? They explain it in the book.

[maigen]

Don't worry it won't be long before Emma is pregers and there will be plenty O5 drama.

[protogarrett]

I've been thinking about this quite a bit recently. We've had X-Men First Class as an ongoing for a while now, and we've got this occasional series of X-Men Origins, but why is it that when it comes the original 5 X-Men these days they only really seem to get some proper focus in actual modern continuity via one shots, or back-up stories, or a limited series that has no real tie to the ongoing books?

And yet the X-Men 'family' (Although it's been a good long while since really been one of those) continues to grow. New characters are created with incredible frequency, old enemies defect to the X-Men's way of thinking, satellite team characters get brought into the main fold...

Why is, though, that there seems to be so little room for the original cast, or even the All-New All-Different cast members to get a proper airing (I mean Collosus and Nightcrawler are there, but what do they actually get to do these days in the main books?

I find it hard to think of any other ongoing team book where so little respect is given for the original or classic lineup of a team. No matter what happens to The Avengers, for example, you can feel pretty sure that the likes of Captain America, Iron Man, and The Wasp WILL figure. Characters like Cap or Thor will occasionally be out of the picture while receiving some redevelopment, but you know it's only a matter of time.

You always know who is going to be at the heart of the JLA or JSA. Hell, even Image and Wildstorm's team books have a greater sense of loyalty towards characters than the X-Men do!

It seems that over the last 10 years in particular, the X-Men has begun to fixate on showcasing the flavour of the week characters at the expense of the greater whole. Team lineups are lucky to last six months, characters don't stick around long enough to develop and there just doesn't feel like there's any real sense of who and what the X-Men are, anymore. There's so little in terms of roots, but an almost constant sense of uprooting. Before Messiah Complex, I feel, that the X-Men was going through it's most consistent and well-rounded period since the late 90s. X-Men and New X-Men were particularly strong. All the books seemed to be interacting well, pulling together as a whole. You could even excuse Astonishing's poor release schedule.

And yet this period really lasted not much longer than a year. All change, again!

What we have now is a series of mixed titles pulling in different directions which, while several are still quite strong, are either very separate from each other or step on each other's continuity.

And where are the original five?

Well, Beast is frequently little more than a background character - consulted, but not nearly as pro-active as he should be. At least he seems to be getting some of his dexterity back, but he's still not really active.

Angel is one guy in Uncanny, another guy in this mini series, and back to being Archangel in X-Force!?! What? Get your continuity matching, for God's sake!

Jean is dead. Although Emma is so frequently written AS Jean that you have to wonder why Marvel just won't get on with it and revive her...

Iceman is seemingly in limbo, after a great year and a half of being treated like he mattered by Carey. A shocking waste.

And Scott? Well, he's getting a big push, but I;m really not feeling this sudden flip out in terms of character. Scott is NOT bad ass. He's not supposed to be. But that doesn't make him lame or uninteresting. By the same token you could call Captain America lame and uninteresting. He seem,s to sell pretty well...

Cyclops is a leader. The only reason he's suffered as a character is through editorial not allowing him to interact with the characters he has actual ties to -Havoc, Rachel, Cable, Vulcan. Hell, his father's dead - has he been shown to react to it? No. Why wasn't he THERE!?

I just don't understand why the X-editors can't see that constant throwaway reinvention of the X-men is a waste of time. There's a reason the books don't sell like they used to - it's because ultimately they no longer have a point. They don't matter anymore, because the constant re-arranging of the books has killed a lot of confidence in them.

What the X-books need for their continued survival is not just consistency, but a sense of their own self-worth. And that is only possible if you build up the lore of the classic characters. And that shouldn't be happening in one-shots or limited series. It HAS to happen in THE core book. The original five are far far from bring or done to death. That's a lazy and tedious excuse, and they wouldn't have survived so long if there was even an element of truth in that. It all comes down to how they well they are written, and how much focus is actually given to them.

Just look at what a writer like Geoff Johns has done at DC with so much of their crappy continuity. He's made Green Lantern credible and JSA? 10 years ago would have been considered a dying, too old and decrepid to ever sell again. Look at it now. Likewise, at Marvel, The Avengers was dying on its arse before Bendis. Love him or hate him, you can't deny he's turned them into a brand that works.

Just because a character is envisaged 30, 40, 50 years ago, doesn't mean they're not still great characters. But you've got to sell it to people through good writing, a solid plan, and sticking to it. Right now, I can't help but feel that the X-Men are failing because the whole premise is being built so largely on the characters who weren't part of the X-Men's foundation - the characters who came later, many of who didn't care much for the concept of the team. The problem with that is that it creates a very aimless and purposeless set of books. And how can you sell those books to new readers? There is no hook.

Am I wrong to feel this way?

Discuss, people.

Sing it, sister! Can we get no new characters for just a few years? PLEASE!? Just use past X-Men. I mean look at the Wikipedia list of X-Men. It's huge, especialy for the past 10 years. THe 70's? Only 6 X-Men added.

Also, lets keep the lineups for more than 1 year, please!

[DDM]

The original X-Men #1-66 did not have any real dynamic character development outside of the team's new individual costumes, Charles Xavier's death, & Marvel Girl's sudden telepathy; the only interesting stories are the Roy Thomas & Neal Adams X-Men #56-63 which reintroduced Magneto, the Savage Land Mutates, Sauron, & new Sentinels. Even X-Men #64-65 did very well with the introduction of Sunfire & the return of Charles Xavier! The original X-Men really lacked any distinctive direction. Roy Thomas--at the time--was more interested in The Avengers than X-Men. Just read The Avengers in the same time as X-Men to note the difference in attitude & stories. I believe the only time the original X-Men were even remotely popular was from X-Factor #1-70, but even this was linked to the new X-Men team, particularly Phoenix.

The new X-Men with Giant Size X-Men #1 & Uncanny X-Men #94-#278 just are a whole separate class of stories that take the mutant team seriously & give the team a jolt to the original framework & moving it forward. Chris Claremont introduced different mutant philosophies with the Magneto, the Hellfire Club, the Morlocks, & the Marauders to be the foil against the X-Men.

[LawGiver]

The original X-Men #1-66 did not have any real dynamic character development outside of the team's new individual costumes, Charles Xavier's death, & Marvel Girl's sudden telepathy; the only interesting stories are the Roy Thomas & Neal Adams X-Men #56-63 which reintroduced Magneto, the Savage Land Mutates, Sauron, & new Sentinels. Even X-Men #64-65 did very well with the introduction of Sunfire & the return of Charles Xavier! The original X-Men really lacked any distinctive direction. Roy Thomas--at the time--was more interested in The Avengers than X-Men. Just read The Avengers in the same time as X-Men to note the difference in attitude & stories. I believe the only time the original X-Men were even remotely popular was from X-Factor #1-70, but even this was linked to the new X-Men team, particularly Phoenix.

The new X-Men with Giant Size X-Men #1 & Uncanny X-Men #94-#278 just are a whole separate class of stories that take the mutant team seriously & give the team a jolt to the original framework & moving it forward. Chris Claremont introduced different mutant philosophies with the Magneto, the Hellfire Club, the Morlocks, & the Marauders to be the foil against the X-Men.


Let us not forget bondage, mind control, overtly sexually dominate females and the awesome S&M uniforms.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

For me a maintaining of at least five years of status quo is a must. But the premise of the team in SF does make me wonder just how long things can and will last before thext reboot.

I could happily have had another 10 years of the books before Messiah Complex. I'm gutted that all came to an end.

[frog]

Don't worry it won't be long before Emma is pregers and there will be plenty O5 drama.

Or Jean comes back and tells Emma that it's only thanks to her that Emma now has Cyclops!

[jarrod]

It's hard to reconcile in-canon, but here on Earth 1218 I'd say it has something to do with the fact the original X-Men weren't really all that popular in their day, and concept didn't really take off until the All-New All-Different reboot. Even still though, I think there's a disproportionate amount of attention lavished on the O5 versus other, more popular, more deserving lineups (ANAD, From the Ashes, Outback era, New Mutants, etc).

[LawGiver]

It's hard to reconcile in-canon, but here on Earth 1218 I'd say it has something to do with the fact the original X-Men weren't really all that popular in their day, and concept didn't really take off until the All-New All-Different reboot. Even still though, I think there's a disproportionate amount of attention lavished on the O5 versus other, more popular, more deserving lineups (ANAD, From the Ashes, Outback era, New Mutants, etc).

Any line up with Rachel Grey on it should be ignored.

[maigen]

Or Jean comes back and tells Emma that it's only thanks to her that Emma now has Cyclops!

Better yet, Emma's first baby looks just like Jean Grey. It would drive Emma and Scott nuts.

[jarrod]

I think that your comment there, Pariah, actually highlights something very important. By rights how old are the O5, exactly? I don't see themm as being particularly old. 30 at an absolute push, but that's not terribly believable. The sliding scale of each new an younger generation of X-Men is making things very confusing, and incredibly difficult to place.
Going by some comparable benchmarks we've had in canon...

Beast: 32
Sage: 32
Cyclops: 31 physically, 41 mentally
Angel: 31
Iceman: 29
Phoenix: R.I.P.

[Swashbuckler]

Any line up with Rachel Grey on it should be ignored.

I second this. Or at least just take a sharpee and color her out of the issues. If the story seems confusing, just blame it on the X-Men being addicted to qualudes.

[jarrod]

Any line up with Rachel Grey on it should be ignored.
So we'll leave out the Uncanny X.S.E. and Brubaker's space abortion. Fine by me. :biggrin:

[LawGiver]

So we'll leave out the Uncanny X.S.E. and Brubaker's space abortion. Fine by me. :biggrin:

If it means getting rid of Rachel Grey then I will gladly sacrifice Brubaker's space opera story.

[jarrod]

Or at lest just take a sharpee and color her out of the issues.
Hello Bogan.

[jarrod]

Better yet, Emma's first baby looks just like Jean Grey. It would drive Emma and Scott nuts.
I've already seeded the immaculate-conception-by-Phoenix idea for Emma... after which she'll give birth to the twins (Ruby Jean and Rachel Anne). Epic.

[Swashbuckler]

Hello Bogan.

If I were Bogan I'd have given Rachel back to the Extreme team. No fight necessary.

[jarrod]

If I were Bogan I'd have given Rachel back to the Extreme team. No fight necessary.
So was Bogan racist for forcing Rachel into black-face or was he just encouraging Rachel's deep seated racism to emerge? And is this why Rachel and Kitty Pryde got along so well?

[darknessatnoon]

So was Bogan racist for forcing Rachel into black-face or was he just encouraging Rachel's deep seated racism to emerge? And is this why Rachel and Kitty Pryde got along so well?

She wore black face to make it easier for her to mind-rape Bishop.

[jarrod]

She wore black face to make it easier for her to mind-rape Bishop.
Actually, it just occurred to me that Jean was the original perpatrator of mutant black face! Racism is learned behavior, and now we know where Rachel must have picked it up...

I'm saddened at WBE's oversight of this controversial nugget in the dirty deeds thread. Jean's not only a smut peddler, adulterer, homophobe, teacher's pet and mass murderer, she's also a racist. Topicly, maybe this is why the All-White, All-Republican O5 aren't more "celebrated".

[timbox]

Actually, it just occurred to me that Jean was the original perpatrator of mutant black face! Racism is learned behavior, and now we know where Rachel must have picked it up...

I'm saddened at WBE's oversight of this controversial nugget in the dirty deeds thread. Jean's not only a smut peddler, adulterer, homophobe, teacher's pet and mass murderer, she's also a racist.

This would have never happened if all fictional characters were white.

[frog]

This would have never happened if all fictional characters were white.

They should all be blue. Then nobody could protest!

[darknessatnoon]

They should all be blue. Then nobody could protest!

I'm so sick of blue characters that I can barely bring myself to flush a toilet bowl anymore.

[CaptainCanada]

The reason the founding members aren't celebrated much is because they really don't have a whole lot of importance to later iterations of the team; their "example", so-called, meant nothing to the "All-New, All-Different" group, nor to any of the subsequent groups. As individuals, some (Cyclops, Jean, and Beast, mainly) have been crucial parts of subsequent teams (there's no real 'iconic' X-Men lineup that I know of; part of the reason the multiple books have been so sustainable is that you can easily fill two teams with name characters), but as a group they don't really mean much, to the fans or in-universe. Notice that none of the adaptations have ever used them as the starting lineup.

[timbox]

They should all be blue. Then nobody could protest!

No frog. Then people could say blue characters are an analogy to whichever minority was the hot topic of the moment.

[frog]

No frog. Then people could say blue characters are an analogy to whichever minority was the hot topic of the moment.

They already say that about mutants!

[jarrod]

Green is the new blue.

[pariah-1972]

I wonder when people are gonna start accusing Kitty of being a secret lesbian since Karma has a huge crush on her.

[jarrod]

I wonder when people are gonna start accusing Kitty of being a secret lesbian since Karma has a huge crush on her.
Uh, Katherine "Pussy" Pryde's lesbian seductions are vast and well documented. Shan's only the latest in a long line of overtly obsessive femazon suitors (Ororo Munroe, Emma Frost, Illyana Rasputin, Rachel Anne Summers, Sat-yr-9, Marrow, etc, etc).

[darknessatnoon]

I wonder when people are gonna start accusing Kitty of being a secret lesbian since Karma has a huge crush on her.

Read Mechanix and the scenes in X-Treme with Rachel. Not such a big secret.

[pariah-1972]

Hmm ok then that's fair enough i guess.

I wish more people would talk about it tho.

Kitty would make a wonderful lesbian.

[darknessatnoon]

Uh, Katherine "Pussy" Pryde's lesbian seductions are vast and well documented. Shan's only the latest in a long line of overtly obsessive femazon suitors (Ororo Munroe, Emma Frost, Illyana Rasputin, Rachel Anne Summers, Sat-yr-9, Marrow, etc, etc).

It all started in her bedroom closet with Amp.

[Dagger]

Hmm ok then that's fair enough i guess.

I wish more people would talk about it tho.

Kitty would make a wonderful lesbian.
Why, because she has tiny teets? SHUT YOUR HOMOPHOBIC, RASCIST ARSE RIGHT NOW!!!! FLAT-CHESTED JEWS HAVE JUST AS MUCH RIGHT TO BE STRAIGHT AS YOU DO!!!!

[pariah-1972]

Why, because she has tiny teets? SHUT YOUR HOMOPHOBIC, RASCIST ARSE RIGHT NOW!!!! FLAT-CHESTED JEWS HAVE JUST AS MUCH RIGHT TO BE STRAIGHT AS YOU DO!!!!Lolz i should save this for my sig.


I wouldn't call her flat chested just small chested.

[lockerogue]

All the X-Woman are lesbians. Just ask Karma. She's touched them all.

[pariah-1972]

All the X-Woman are lesbians. Just ask Karma. She's touched them all.I need pictures of all this touching.

[Dagger]

I need pictures of all this touching.

They call eachother grrl. Nuff said.

[Bingo!]

And Scott? Well, he's getting a big push, but I;m really not feeling this sudden flip out in terms of character. Scott is NOT bad ass. He's not supposed to be. But that doesn't make him lame or uninteresting. By the same token you could call Captain America lame and uninteresting. He seem,s to sell pretty well...

Cyclops is a leader. The only reason he's suffered as a character is through editorial not allowing him to interact with the characters he has actual ties to -Havoc, Rachel, Cable, Vulcan. Hell, his father's dead - has he been shown to react to it? No. Why wasn't he THERE!?


TSiD,

I agree that Scott in the past was not be "bad ass," but Scott is the leader of the X-Men now. By relocating the X-Men to SF and excusing Xavier from leading mutants, Scott has effectively taken Xavier dream in a new direction that the old man couldn't. Scott has taken huge risks and given a new vision for mutants. Scott doesn't seem concerned with improving homo-sapien / mutant relations like Xavier did. Scott demands a better quality of life for mutants and he's giving it to them. That is bad ass.

And where are the original five?

Well, Beast is frequently little more than a background character - consulted, but not nearly as pro-active as he should be. At least he seems to be getting some of his dexterity back, but he's still not really active.

Angel is one guy in Uncanny, another guy in this mini series, and back to being Archangel in X-Force!?! What? Get your continuity matching, for God's sake!

Jean is dead. Although Emma is so frequently written AS Jean that you have to wonder why Marvel just won't get on with it and revive her...

Iceman is seemingly in limbo, after a great year and a half of being treated like he mattered by Carey. A shocking waste.
Things are looking promising for most of these characters. Messiah Complex has tossed many of the mutants in different directions. Hopefully Manifest Destiny bring them all back together and offer each of them strong stories to move forward. (Except Jean. Please leave her dead for now.)
I just don't understand why the X-editors can't see that constant throwaway reinvention of the X-men is a waste of time. There's a reason the books don't sell like they used to - it's because ultimately they no longer have a point. They don't matter anymore, because the constant re-arranging of the books has killed a lot of confidence in them.
So true. Look at the New X-Men and Young X-Men. They had a team that was solid, loved and character with rising prominence. Then we got YXM.

[Zombie Uatu]

Because unlike The Avengers or even the JLA, the X-Men is not about revering past Golden Ages and treating the founders of something as gods. Rather it always has been and is quite rightly about moving forward. The O5 were interesting at the time they were created, but the ANAD cast were more relevant when they appeared. Again, with the arrival of Rogue, Psylocke, and the rest of the Australia team. The constant reverence for and obsession with the past is what has made books like Fantastic Four consistently drop in sales, since it has always been about the same characters (who by now have become tired) on the same team (which by now has become almost offensively outmoded) doing the same things (which by now have become mundane). By contrast, the constant renewal which the X-Men undergo keeps them fresh and is a large part of their continued appeal.

[darknessatnoon]

Because unlike The Avengers or even the JLA, the X-Men is not about revering past Golden Ages and treating the founders of something as gods. Rather it always has been and is quite rightly about moving forward. The O5 were interesting at the time they were created, but the ANAD cast were more relevant when they appeared. Again, with the arrival of Rogue, Psylocke, and the rest of the Australia team. The constant reverence for and obsession with the past is what has made books like Fantastic Four consistently drop in sales, since it has always been about the same characters (who by now have become tired) on the same team (which by now has become almost offensively outmoded) doing the same things (which by now have become mundane). By contrast, the constant renewal which the X-Men undergo keeps them fresh and is a large part of their continued appeal.

Agreed. Part of that is also the school theme with successive classes. No one wants the 06 to constantly have to repeat a grade.

[maigen]

Kitty has a lot of anger. She needs some release.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c306/maigen_rc/Kitty_Pryde.jpg

[mattbib]

Why, because she has tiny teets? SHUT YOUR HOMOPHOBIC, RASCIST ARSE RIGHT NOW!!!! FLAT-CHESTED JEWS HAVE JUST AS MUCH RIGHT TO BE STRAIGHT AS YOU DO!!!!
OMG...This is the funniest post ever.

[AcesX1X]

Listen,

this is silly. You can't just bring all the 06's out on the main spotlight at the same time. The X-Men family is too big now, and you have to learn how to deal with it.

What kind of message do you want being sent to readers?

I can just imagine Marvel's publicity statement:

"We know there's literally dozens of X-Men now - all with very diverse backgrounds and origins. However, in an effort to focus more on our true foundations, we'll be pushing those equally-tenured X-Men to the background in favor of five white mutants from America. Now, we know this isn't the most ideal situation, but you have to realize - those six came first. We can't help it they were created in a time where mostly-white and straight was the norm. Don't worry, though. To maintain that international feel, the other X-Men will be around on a rotating basis, and will serve more as staff than actual main characters. However, for the time being, the 06 will be the true stars. ....and Emma Frost and Wolverine, too, of course."

[pariah-1972]

Listen,

this is silly. You can't just bring all the 06's out on the main spotlight at the same time. The X-Men family is too big now, and you have to learn how to deal with it.

What kind of message do you want being sent to readers?

I can just imagine Marvel's publicity statement:

"We know there's literally dozens of X-Men now - all with very diverse backgrounds and origins. However, in an effort to focus more on our true foundations, we'll be pushing those equally-tenured X-Men to the background in favor of five white mutants from America. Now, we know this isn't the most ideal situation, but you have to realize - those six came first. We can't help it they were created in a time where mostly-white and straight was the norm. Don't worry, though. To maintain that international feel, the other X-Men will be around on a rotating basis, and will serve more as staff than actual main characters. However, for the time being, the 06 will be the true stars. ....and Emma Frost and Wolverine, too, of course."Yeah and the main x-books are like so diverse now:rolleyes:

[Zombie Uatu]

Yeah and the main x-books are like so diverse now:rolleyes:

Yes, they are. Since we are talking about the 'main' X-books, I will assume you mean Uncanny and Astonishing. On the Astonishing team are Cyclops, Emma Frost, Beast, Wolverine, Storm and Armor. Cyclops and Beast are both white male Americans, though they are from different parts of the States, so some cultural differences will necessarily exist there immediately. Emma Frost and Storm offer some of the best of what female characterisation in comics has to offer; both are strong, powerful female characters with complex histories, moralities and personalities. Between them they have barely a whiff of WIF. Storm is also African - not African-American, African. More specifically, she's Kenyan by birth, and part Egyptian part Kenyan by background. She's also a Queen, which means by the way that actually the Astonishing team have two queens on their team. Then we have Wolverine, a born and bred Canadian. He also has Japanese and South-East Asian background, however. Armor is also Japanese. Half the team is therefore female, thus naturally reflecting the make-up of society. Most of the team are from ethnic minorities of one kind or another.

In terms of sexuality, Storm has been pretty much openly bisexual though she is now married. There's a stated intention from Chris Claremont that Wolverine was at one time intended to be bisexual. He probably still could be. I get the impression you don't question who Wolverine's sleeping with if you want to sleep with anyone yourself ever again. Beast has recently been exploring and dealing with his sexuality, and though ultimately he is straight, the fact that he has asked the question of himself speaks volumes about the way this issue can be treated in the modern world. Emma, though devoted to Scott, is in all likelihood pretty much the same as Wolverine - she strikes me as the sort of girl who's more than happy to experiment, as evidenced by the amount of time she used to spend in bondage gear. Scott is straight, which is disappointing, but in character at least. Armor is too young to tell, I suspect.

So, of the entire Astonishing cast, only one straight white male is thus confirmed. The other SWM is Beast, who has recently openly questioned his sexuality and in any case is blue and furry and hardly the poster child for ayrian supremacy.

On to Uncanny. I shall consider here the characters who have recently appeared in the title. Emma, Scott and Wolverine are discussed above. In recent issues, Karma, Nightcrawler, Cannonball, Angel, Colossus and Pixie have all appeared. Karma is the easiest one. She's a Vietnamese lesbian. That such a character would appear in the book in the first place speaks volumes of it's openness to diversity, but on to the rest. Nightcrawler is German by birth, but was raised by a Gypsy. I would now like to make a point about persons of European extraction. Europe is a huge area, encompassing many countries, peoples, nations and ideologies. To describe someone as 'White European' is as ignorant as describing someone as 'Black African'; it ignores the true questions of ethnicity which go towards creating the diverse society in which we all, European, American, or otherwise, live. Nightcrawler is also a devout Christian. His continued appearance with this aspect of his character intact in a society both increasingly secular and intolerant of religion of any kind should not be disregarded. Cannonball is from the American South, and is white. However, the fact that it's not all Northern American white males in the comic should also not be disregarded. Angel, like Cyclops, is an SWM, but comes from an almost entirely different background; while Cyclops was a poor orphan, Angel is a spoiler little rich kid. With wings. Colossus is, of course, Russian. See my comments on the diversity of Europeans above. Pixie is Welsh. How anyone can question the tolerance level in a comic that's willing to feature the Welsh is beyond me, but then, I've been to Wales.

In terms of sexualities in Uncanny, we have the aforementioned Vietnamese lesbian in Karma. Nightcrawler is pretty much confirmed straight. Questions have been raised about Cannonball and his relationship with Bobby Drake, Iceman, but nothing is confirmed in the comic. I hesitate to open up this can of worms, but Angel's relationship with Husk must be taken to say something about his preferences, surely? Colossus is straight, at least in 616 - it shouldn't be forgotten that the Ultimate version of this character is openly gay and in a long-term relationship, something which is sadly unusual for comic book homosexuals (just ask Northstar or Karma). Pixie, like Armor, is too young to tell, but she has human friends who appear to be openly gay, and is clearly an open-minded young woman (personally, I think it'd be cool if her and Armor hooked up, actually).

Uncanny does feature a higher proportion of SWMs, but only three of those characters are American, and one represents a different cultural section of America than is usually seen. Though many of the characters are of European extraction, suggesting a European bias, the regions they come from, and their views and ideologies, cannot be looked at as anything other than diverse.

For comparison, I give you the Fantastic Four. One character, arguably the main character, judging by his codename, is a paternalistic SWM who describes himself as 'Mr Fantastic'. Another is a typical American spoiled little rich kid. He is also an SWM. A third may be big and rocky and representative of the so-called 'everyman', but one can't escape the fact that he, again, is a straight white male. The only female character takes on a stereotypical 'mother hen' role, and is literally and figuratively invisible.

If you thought the X-Men had it bad in terms of diversity, I suggest you rethink that idea with some reflection on what I have said above, and on the diversity of some other popular comic book teams. I recommend the JLA and the Avengers to start. I think you will find that the alleged lack of diversity in the X-Men is as much an internet myth as Sage's alleged popularity.

[jarrod]

Quick correction, but Storm was born in NYC (making her literally African American) and her father was an American photojournalist. She's also not in any part of Egyptian heritage or descent, though she grew up on the streets of Cairo.

I can forgive this teeny oversight since you mentioned Wolverine's canonical bisexuality though. :biggrin:

[Zombie Uatu]

Quick correction, but Storm was born in NYC (making her literally African American) and her father was an American photojournalist. She's also not in any part of Egyptian heritage or descent, though she grew up on the streets of Cairo.

I can forgive this teeny oversight since you mentioned Wolverine's canonical bisexuality though. :biggrin:

Thanks for the heads up. I'm not going to alter this post since I've used it elsewhere now but I'll bear it in mind in future. Also, her growing up on the streets of Cairo, like Nightcrawler's gypsy upbringing, gives her an Egyptian perspective if not strictly nationality.

[darknessatnoon]

Thanks for the heads up. I'm not going to alter this post since I've used it elsewhere now but I'll bear it in mind in future. Also, her growing up on the streets of Cairo, like Nightcrawler's gypsy upbringing, gives her an Egyptian perspective if not strictly nationality.

No it doesn't. She has a ragamuffin's perspective on Egypt. She's never even been in Egyptian home. Egyptian comic readers totally reject Storm. If she had an "Egyptian perspective," she would not be an immodest nudist.

[Zombie Uatu]

No it doesn't. She has a ragamuffin's perspective on Egypt. She's never even been in Egyptian home. Egyptian comic readers totally reject Storm. If she had an "Egyptian perspective," she would not be an immodest nudist.

Oh, so the perspective of a homeless child on the country in which they are homeless is invalid? Thankfully, I've never had to live on the streets as a child, but I strongly suspect it's a different experience to be a kid on the streets in Cairo than it is in London than it is in New York. She has an Egyptian perspective. I didn't say it was the perspective of the majority of people in Egypt.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

The reason the founding members aren't celebrated much is because they really don't have a whole lot of importance to later iterations of the team; their "example", so-called, meant nothing to the "All-New, All-Different" group, nor to any of the subsequent groups. As individuals, some (Cyclops, Jean, and Beast, mainly) have been crucial parts of subsequent teams (there's no real 'iconic' X-Men lineup that I know of; part of the reason the multiple books have been so sustainable is that you can easily fill two teams with name characters), but as a group they don't really mean much, to the fans or in-universe. Notice that none of the adaptations have ever used them as the starting lineup.

Indeed. That is the case. Although the more successful incarnations have acknowledged that at the viewer's point of entry they are coming into something which has been going on far longer than the team they are currently observing. This is done to enrich the piece, and give the viewer a feeling that the wold they've strayed into is far more complex, and in some cases even more clandestine, than they thought. X-Men the Animated Series had an Iceman episode which served this purpose, the X-Men movie franchise introduced Beast for the same reason.

But you highlight one of the exact points I was trying to make with my initial post.

To a degree you're quite right, the O6 didn't have a great amount of importance to many of the All-New All-Different team. Especially Wolverine and Banshee - they were both far more experienced and older heroes. What did a bunch of teens have to teach them (A few things, granted, but you know what I mean)?

On the other hand, the All-New All-Different team DID mean something far more to the New Mutants - who saw the senior team as being of great importance. They looked up to them, they aspired to be them, but eventually - be it teenage rebellion or just finding that Cable offered them a new school of thought - they abandoned the team and set out out a different path.

And this, I feel, is where things to a certain degree started to go wrong for the X-Men. Because for every subsequent generation of X-Men - heck even certain roster incarnations - all who have come before them mean very little to them whatsoever, and they usually come to resent the team and either split away from it or the X-Men abandon them.

Of what importance were the O5, the All-New All-Different team or the New Mutants to Generation X? Not really very much at all to most. They meant something to Jubilee, because she'd been one of them. But even to the two Gen Xers who joined the senior team really what did being an X-Man really mean to them, let alone looking up to the X-Men themselves. There was only one impression that an O5 member left on any of Generation X - and I'd rather not think of that.

What did any previous incarnation of the X-Men actually mean to Marrow, Maggot or Cecelia Reyes? Again, not a lot. Promise followed by disappointment, and maybe even a little resentment in the end. Even when outside members join above youth level that connection with previous generations seems to be brief.

Moving on to more modern times what about the New X-Men? Initially they had a lot of contact with the senior team and with some of the New Mutants. But after the way they were let down by M Day, and all the deaths that respect which had been built began to erode. For some members trust was built back up by their inclusion on the New X-Men squad. It was a sound team. But after Messiah Complex, and the way in which the key players (and by far the strongest characters) were discarded by the X-Men what really does any generation have in terms of admiration or respect for the predecessors?

And so it goes on, this continuing spiral of throwaway teams. And I think we're running a real danger now of the X-Men actually facing a complete dissolution of purpose and self. With each previous generation meaning less to the next than their predecessors what we're ending up with is a nice set of characters who can be grouped into satellite books - but a total loss of the actual X-Men.

What is the X-Men's remit now? Why do they matter? What is their purpose?

Who wants to be an X-Man? Does anybody? I mean why should they - it's clear that the school means nothing, the team have no common identity, and nobody looks positively or respectfully on the people who came before them.

When the X-Titles start to dwell in this kind of rut for too long, you genuinely do have to question how much longer the franchise can continue as it is. It's all very well to have X-Men movies or cartoons - but they bare almost nothing in common with the books, anymore.

X-Men has been stuck in a rut for a long time. And I don't think the switch to San Francisco really solves anything. It's something stuck deep down in the soul of the book. What was a cool/edgy rebellion vibe in the 90s has led to a tired dysfunctional team post 2000. If a writer can't find a way of bringing the team together again, in a more 'family' sense, if the respect for past generations can't be found, I really do worry for the future of the franchise in the long term.

[darknessatnoon]

Indeed. That is the case. Although the more successful incarnations have acknowledged that at the viewer's point of entry they are coming into something which has been going on far longer than the team they are currently observing. This is done to enrich the piece, and give the viewer a feeling that the wold they've strayed into is far more complex, and in some cases even more clandestine, than they thought. X-Men the Animated Series had an Iceman episode which served this purpose, the X-Men movie franchise introduced Beast for the same reason.

But you highlight one of the exact points I was trying to make with my initial post.

To a degree you're quite right, the O6 didn't have a great amount of importance to many of the All-New All-Different team. Especially Wolverine and Banshee - they were both far more experienced and older heroes. What did a bunch of teens have to teach them (A few things, granted, but you know what I mean)?

On the other hand, the All-New All-Different team DID mean something far more to the New Mutants - who saw the senior team as being of great importance. They looked up to them, they aspired to be them, but eventually - be it teenage rebellion or just finding that Cable offered them a new school of thought - they abandoned the team and set out out a different path.

And this, I feel, is where things to a certain degree started to go wrong for the X-Men. Because for every subsequent generation of X-Men - heck even certain roster incarnations - all who have come before them mean very little to them whatsoever, and they usually come to resent the team and either split away from it or the X-Men abandon them.

Of what importance were the O5, the All-New All-Different team or the New Mutants to Generation X? Not really very much at all to most. They meant something to Jubilee, because she'd been one of them. But even to the two Gen Xers who joined the senior team really what did being an X-Man really mean to them, let alone looking up to the X-Men themselves. There was only one impression that an O5 member left on any of Generation X - and I'd rather not think of that.

What did any previous incarnation of the X-Men actually mean to Marrow, Maggot or Cecelia Reyes? Again, not a lot. Promise followed by disappointment, and maybe even a little resentment in the end. Even when outside members join above youth level that connection with previous generations seems to be brief.

Moving on to more modern times what about the New X-Men? Initially they had a lot of contact with the senior team and with some of the New Mutants. But after the way they were let down by M Day, and all the deaths that respect which had been built began to erode. For some members trust was built back up by their inclusion on the New X-Men squad. It was a sound team. But after Messiah Complex, and the way in which the key players (and by far the strongest characters) were discarded by the X-Men what really does any generation have in terms of admiration or respect for the predecessors?

And so it goes on, this continuing spiral of throwaway teams. And I think we're running a real danger now of the X-Men actually facing a complete dissolution of purpose and self. With each previous generation meaning less to the next than their predecessors what we're ending up with is a nice set of characters who can be grouped into satellite books - but a total loss of the actual X-Men.

What is the X-Men's remit now? Why do they matter? What is their purpose?

Who wants to be an X-Man? Does anybody? I mean why should they - it's clear that the school means nothing, the team have no common identity, and nobody looks positively or respectfully on the people who came before them.

When the X-Titles start to dwell in this kind of rut for too long, you genuinely do have to question how much longer the franchise can continue as it is. It's all very well to have X-Men movies or cartoons - but they bare almost nothing in common with the books, anymore.

X-Men has been stuck in a rut for a long time. And I don't think the switch to San Francisco really solves anything. It's something stuck deep down in the soul of the book. What was a cool/edgy rebellion vibe in the 90s has led to a tired dysfunctional team post 2000. If a writer can't find a way of bringing the team together again, in a more 'family' sense, if the respect for past generations can't be found, I really do worry for the future of the franchise in the long term.

I am quoting and framing this post forever. I assume your use of O6 was a typo, but regardless, it's a firm, subconscious, acknowledgment of Sage.

[DDM]

What is the X-Men's remit now? Why do they matter? What is their purpose?

The X-Men should always be a "family" of sorts as their missions draw them closer as a team; they should always be striving for Xavier's dream of mutant-human peace with different interpretations such as Cyclops, Storm, & Magneto. Then writers should build opposing views with divergent philosophies with revamped or new villains as Chris Claremont previously had done with the Hellfire Club, Morlocks, & Marauders. For several years now, the "family" aspect & Charles Xavier's dream is missing from the equation save for Chris Claremont's X-Treme X-Men & his stints on Uncanny X-Men. Without these two fundamental elements, the X-Men will start to fall apart.

I really think the editors have no clue right now; the books seem to be drifting in the wilderness themselves.

[Christopher O]

X-Men has been stuck in a rut for a long time. And I don't think the switch to San Francisco really solves anything. It's something stuck deep down in the soul of the book. What was a cool/edgy rebellion vibe in the 90s has led to a tired dysfunctional team post 2000. If a writer can't find a way of bringing the team together again, in a more 'family' sense, if the respect for past generations can't be found, I really do worry for the future of the franchise in the long term.
There was nothing cool about the X-Men in the 90's. Also, I don't think respect for past generations matters, when those generations are filling out the current roster.

[CaptainCanada]

What is the X-Men's remit now? Why do they matter? What is their purpose?

Who wants to be an X-Man? Does anybody? I mean why should they - it's clear that the school means nothing, the team have no common identity, and nobody looks positively or respectfully on the people who came before them.

I think that's a severe overstatement; they have the same common identity they always had: they're mutants trying to survive and hopefully thrive. The X-Men is about the facilitation of that.

The current direction is everybody moving to San Francisco to live there as a community; from what little we've seen of it, everyone is getting along and having a good time with their old friends and co-workers. And all but one of the four original X-Men currently still active are on one team or another (Iceman being the exception).

[david r]

I would think the Original 5 had their time. They were not very popular in the 1960s. There would not a site devoted to the X-Men on CBR if the Original 5 had remained the ONLY X-Men team ever.

And though X-Factor was popular at first, it also eventually faded and was not doing so hot by 1991, when drastic changes happened. I think fans just simply have not clicked to the Original X-Men by themselves. Fans want more Wolverine, Storm, Rogue, Psylocke, Gambit, etc. A mixture of the Originals with new members is preferable. The Originals by themselves..........X-fans don't seem so interested in.

[david r]

What is the X-Men's remit now? Why do they matter? What is their purpose?

The Sword is Drawn, there has been lots of purpose. Evertime we start down a new road with purpose, the writer is jettisoned in favor of X-Men: Revolution/Reload/Reload II/Decimation etc. etc. etc. So what we have is a mess of false-starts and no conclusions to story after story after story. This is what happens when writers come and go every 1-2 years.

What you said about Geoff Johns on JSA is so true, though. Marvel WISHES they had a writer of his caliber.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I am quoting and framing this post forever. I assume your use of O6 was a typo, but regardless, it's a firm, subconscious, acknowledgment of Sage.

It's fan service, Darkness, especially for you. :biggrin:

The X-Men should always be a "family" of sorts as their missions draw them closer as a team; they should always be striving for Xavier's dream of mutant-human peace with different interpretations such as Cyclops, Storm, & Magneto. Then writers should build opposing views with divergent philosophies with revamped or new villains as Chris Claremont previously had done with the Hellfire Club, Morlocks, & Marauders. For several years now, the "family" aspect & Charles Xavier's dream is missing from the equation save for Chris Claremont's X-Treme X-Men & his stints on Uncanny X-Men. Without these two fundamental elements, the X-Men will start to fall apart.

I totally agree. It is missing. And with each new iteration I believe that number of viewpoints and enemies just keeps on shrinking. The diversity and complexity which built the X-men into a justifiable franchise - rather than a single book - really IS fading. And it's greatly worrying for all X-fans.

I really think the editors have no clue right now; the books seem to be drifting in the wilderness themselves.

I do genuinely worry about that, too. Like I say I don't think that (Other than a couple of notable exceptions) I think we have some strong satellite titles right now - but they're all pulling in different directions to the core books, and don't share very much ideologically or continuity wise with them either. The actual backbone of the X-Men franchise now falls down to Uncanny and Astonishing - neither of which appear to be doing anything new, or expanding the diverse nature of the X-Men universe. We're still early in both titles new directions, granted, and I'm willing to be proven wrong. Hell, I'd LOVE to be proven wrong! But I feel that a giant franchise of individual books which don't pull together ultimately will only last so long.

There was nothing cool about the X-Men in the 90's.

Yeah. I use 'cool' with a hint of irony, here. We were supposed to find the vacuous 90s 'kewl' and 'bad ass', and any other cliche that the industry sported. It was very much style over substance, and we knew it.

Also, I don't think respect for past generations matters, when those generations are filling out the current roster.

Respect is incredibly important. It's what makes a team and a tradition matter. Without it we're just looking at a small gathering of mutants, in the same place at the same time, who don't much care for what their doing and don't much care for each other. It's improbable, and shallow. Much like every other 90s book which wanted (And desperately TRIED) to BE the X-Men. :biggrin:

I think that's a severe overstatement; they have the same common identity they always had: they're mutants trying to survive and hopefully thrive. The X-Men is about the facilitation of that.

It is a bit of an over exaggeration, sure. It was intentional. I'm just pointing out that there is a good deal of difference between a gathering of people under a common identity and actually having a purpose. Because there really is.

Identifying oppression is one thing - banding together to support others who are being oppressed. But unless you actually DO something about it, then it doesn't make for a particularly interesting story. That's where 'Xavier's Dream' made the team something more. But in the modern team that dream is kinda gone - broken by what they believe to be the harsh reality of it all.

In my opinion the X-Men don't just need a new direction, or a move to a new location. They actually need to pin down what they're standing for - what they're going to do and how it makes a difference. Right now everything just feels like a communal gathering. And that doesn't make for interesting comics.

The current direction is everybody moving to San Francisco to live there as a community; from what little we've seen of it, everyone is getting along and having a good time with their old friends and co-workers. And all but one of the four original X-Men currently still active are on one team or another (Iceman being the exception).

They are active, sure. But I'm not really seeing any sense of tradition, or taking any pride in what they're trying to do. Because nobody seems to know what that actually IS anymore. Building a community should only be part of what the X-Men stand for. Right now it seems much more like the focus, if not the whole.

The Sword is Drawn, there has been lots of purpose. Evertime we start down a new road with purpose, the writer is jettisoned in favor of X-Men: Revolution/Reload/Reload II/Decimation etc. etc. etc. So what we have is a mess of false-starts and no conclusions to story after story after story. This is what happens when writers come and go every 1-2 years.

Exactly, Davidr. And I can't understand how WE can all see it, mention it frequently, and see exactly what its done to the books, but the powers that be at Marvel seem so utterly oblivious to it.

How would you sell the current X-Men to a new reader? Can you easily define it, in a way which isn't impenetrable. Before Messiah Complex I could. But the whole "Fighting to protect a world that hates and fears them" moniker really does not fit the books very much, anymore.

What you said about Geoff Johns on JSA is so true, though. Marvel WISHES they had a writer of his caliber.

Abso-blummin'-lutely. There is a guy who knows how to fix continuity, and make old continuity relevant and fun to read. The X-Men badly need somebody like that, with a very genuine love for the books' history, to build things up again.

I know that some people see that guy to be Mike Carey. He's good. Really good. But I'm not sure he's that guy.

[pariah-1972]

Abso-blummin'-lutely. There is a guy who knows how to fix continuity, and make old continuity relevant and fun to read. The X-Men badly need somebody like that, with a very genuine love for the books' history, to build things up again.

I know that some people see that guy to be Mike Carey. He's good. Really good. But I'm not sure he's that guy.Well Mike Carey is the closest thing we have to a Geoff Johns right now.
but the difference is JSA has the benefit of being a lot like the early "all new all different" issues of X-men where they get a strong writer at his peak having the creative freedom to mess around and make his own impact on a fairly obscure and not a big selling comic.

And it also handles whatever cross-over comes it's way with ease.


Carey right now is working on something very different right now with Legacy but i think him and Geoff are both strong writers and i would love to see them handle more popular books and see what they can do.

[Omega Alpha]

So, why was the first X-Men run with the O5 basically canceled then if they are so great?

Bad writing and lack of focus after Stan & Jack left. When they had a good writer, sales increased, that's why they always had plans for another release.

And Wolverine was by far the most unpopular of the X-men for a good deal of time, initial reaction doesn't mean that much 40 years later

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Well Mike Carey is the closest thing we have to a Geoff Johns right now.

I suppose he is, really. I'm just very wary of building people up to fast, and relying on them too much. His charactersations aren't always perfect, but you can't deny that he does a blinding job.

but the difference is JSA has the benefit of being a lot like the early "all new all different" issues of X-men where they get a strong writer at his peak having the creative freedom to mess around and make his own impact on a fairly obscure and not a big selling comic.

There's a fair amount of truth in that, granted. But I do still feel that there are still possibilities of building up those original 5 characters, and Polaris and Havoc, into something more. I'd actually like to see Uncanny refer to the odd story from X-Men First Class for example, in building something bigger.

Carey right now is working on something very different right now with Legacy but i think him and Geoff are both strong writers and i would love to see them handle more popular books and see what they can do.

And in all honesty X-Men Legacy remains my favourite X-Title, right now. The work Carey has done there, while certainly not ground breaking, is very undervalued. I would far prefer to see him take over Uncanny than Fraction (And I like Fraction a lot) but I would be very concerned that some fans might place him on too high a pedestal - ultimately leading to him failing in many people's eyes.

Bad writing and lack of focus after Stan & Jack left. When they had a good writer, sales increased, that's why they always had plans for another release.

That is the reality of the situation. If you actually read the later issues, in that run, the writing and even the art layouts stand up very well. It was always intended to be revived. Hence why there was a hiatus, followed by many months of reprints, rather than an actual cancellation. Some people at Marvel aw that there could be a lot more to the book, and its world, and that it was well worth re-working it.

And Wolverine was by far the most unpopular of the X-men for a good deal of time, initial reaction doesn't mean that much 40 years later

Absolutely. Wolverine was a major figure of hate for the letters pages for quite a long time. It was several years before readers adjusted to him. Hard to imagine, now. Well, people hate him for a whole other reason now, but you know what I mean!

[pariah-1972]

Bad writing and lack of focus after Stan & Jack left. When they had a good writer, sales increased, that's why they always had plans for another release.

And Wolverine was by far the most unpopular of the X-men for a good deal of time, initial reaction doesn't mean that much 40 years laterI'm sorry but none of the Stan and Jack issues were anything to talk about i mean it devolved into fighting Frakenstein and Merlin and an alien named Satan for christsakes.

Which is probably why there are so many 05 rehashings like X-men first class.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I'm sorry but none of the Stan and Jack issues were anything to talk about i mean it devolved into fighting Frakenstein and Merlin and an alien named Satan for christsakes.

But that's not where the series was going by the end of the initial run. By the time we reach the Neal Adams drawn issues, with Havoc and Polaris as regulars, the book was very much showing the promise of what it would later acheive after the relaunch. These really are the only issues from the original run that I could actually re-read. :biggrin: The period where the X-Men had been disbanded and were split off around the Country weren't bad, either.

[pariah-1972]

But that's not where the series was going by the end of the initial run. By the time we reach the Neal Adams drawn issues, with Havoc and Polaris as regulars, the book was very much showing the promise of what it would later acheive after the relaunch. These really are the only issues from the original run that I could actually re-read. :biggrin: The period where the X-Men had been disbanded and were split off around the Country weren't bad, either.Yeah it's too bad Neal Adams left so soon:frown:

[AcesX1X]

But that's not where the series was going by the end of the initial run. By the time we reach the Neal Adams drawn issues, with Havoc and Polaris as regulars, the book was very much showing the promise of what it would later acheive after the relaunch. These really are the only issues from the original run that I could actually re-read. :biggrin: The period where the X-Men had been disbanded and were split off around the Country weren't bad, either.

This sounds like a great opportunity for you to start a fanfic series. I think it would be a very healthy outlet for you on this matter.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

This sounds like a great opportunity for you to start a fanfic series. I think it would be a very healthy outlet for you on this matter.

Lol. I don't do fanfic. That kind of thing always weirds me out. Mind you, I'm suppose that X-Men: First Class might get there one year...

But back to the main subject, if anyone reading this thread does not have any interest in the Original Five, actively dislikes them, or just doesn't believe they work, why don't you tell us why? What'd your beef?

Discuss.

[DDM]

But that's not where the series was going by the end of the initial run. By the time we reach the Neal Adams drawn issues, with Havoc and [Lorna Dane] as regulars, the book was very much showing the promise of what it would later acheive after the relaunch. These really are the only issues from the original run that I could actually re-read. :biggrin: The period where the X-Men had been disbanded and were split off around the Country weren't bad, either.

I fixed your quote. Lorna Dane did not become Polaris until Uncanny X-Men #97. In the original X-Men series, she is simply Lorna Dane.

Yeah it's too bad Neal Adams left so soon:frown:

Neal Adams left X-Men when he discovered the book was going to be cancelled anyway. It's why he did not pencil X-Men #64 & X-Men #66.

[We R. Venom]

The Avengers had stautes and such. Maybe the X-men need some too.

[DDM]

I'm sorry but none of the Stan and Jack issues were anything to talk about i mean it devolved into fighting Frakenstein and Merlin and an alien named Satan for christsakes.

Which is probably why there are so many 05 rehashings like X-men first class.

Stan Lee & Jack Kirby created Magneto, the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants (Mastermind, Scarlet Witch, & Quicksilver), the Blob, Vanisher, Unus, the Juggernaut, & the Sentinels. It's quite an impressive display in just about 16 issues. The Magneto card is overplayed though.

Roy Thomas preferred The Avengers over The X-Men (aside from the Factor Three storylines). It's hard to believe he's the same writer on these books given the story quality. I believe Roy Thomas got inspired by Neal Adams which improved his stories a great deal, but the book was doomed for cancellation despite their success.

[jarrod]

The Avengers had stautes and such. Maybe the X-men need some too.
Jean's got one!

[We R. Venom]

Jean's got one!

In San Fran? I think they need new ones at the new place.

[pariah-1972]

Stan Lee & Jack Kirby created Magneto, the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants (Mastermind, Scarlet Witch, & Quicksilver), the Blob, Vanisher, Unus, the Juggernaut, & the Sentinels. It's quite an impressive display in just about 16 issues. The Magneto card is overplayed though.

Roy Thomas preferred The Avengers over The X-Men (aside from the Factor Three storylines). It's hard to believe he's the same writer on these books given the story quality. I believe Roy Thomas got inspired by Neal Adams which improved his stories a great deal, but the book was doomed for cancellation despite their success.But none of those were interesting until the revamp.


I would like to see Unus and Vanisher make a come back .

Lee and Kirby are good at creating blueprints for other writers and artists to expand upon.

[DDM]

But none of those were interesting until the revamp.

Well, that is your opinion.


I would like to see Unus and Vanisher make a come back .

The Vanisher did make a sort of comeback in X-Factor #11-12 & made a cameo in Fallen Angels #1-8. He also has an interesting story by Mary Jo Duffy & Dave Cockrum in Bizarre Adventures #27 with Nightcrawler.

Lee and Kirby are good at creating blueprints for other writers and artists to expand upon.

I also like the Roy Thomas created Banshee, Sunfire, & Factor Three with the Neal Adams co-created Savage Land Mutates.

I do agree the X-Men really took off with the 1975 revamp.

[CaptainCanada]

They are active, sure. But I'm not really seeing any sense of tradition, or taking any pride in what they're trying to do. Because nobody seems to know what that actually IS anymore. Building a community should only be part of what the X-Men stand for. Right now it seems much more like the focus, if not the whole.

Like what, exactly? The current setup is not really that different from the previous; the X-Men are mutants, they try to protect their community, and they have other random hero adventures based on whatever happens along in their neighbourhood.

[pariah-1972]

Well, that is your opinion.




The Vanisher did make a sort of comeback in X-Factor #11-12 & made a cameo in Fallen Angels #1-8. He also has an interesting story by Mary Jo Duffy & Dave Cockrum in Bizarre Adventures #27 with Nightcrawler.



I also like the Roy Thomas created Banshee, Sunfire, & Factor Three with the Neal Adams co-created Savage Land Mutates.

I do agree the X-Men really took off with the 1975 revamp.Part of the problem for me is i didn't grow up reading silver age books so the style is a little bit awkward for me to get into and i feel like it has dated really bad.

[SayOcean]

Yeah I never really liked the o5 I always thought of them as my parents Xmen The ANAD xmen were cool cause they had different kinda people on their teams and their powers seemed to be more ....mutantous, The Aussie team seemed interesting to me because they were liked the rebels, things seemed more desperate for them, I like the NM cause they were teenagers and just really good characters and storytelling

and the team i grew up with....Gen X didnt have much interaction with the orginal five, i actually resented the fact that they seemed to just leave them at that Mass school. none of the teams taht i thought were interesting did....The o5 never really seemed to never be that interested in anyone but themselves, they seemed like the upper classmen in highschool.

I def didnt like that 05 or 6 never really had any of them die, and every other team has i think that they are doing things pretty good, nevermind the fact witht he 05 always around it doesnt bode well when some new generation comes and tries to graduate. tey get blown off for the "Amazing return of Angel, or Iceman or anyone of those boring old people)

but i could see why people like them, but i dont think they have been ignored, i mean look at NM or Gen X those kids have been ingnored

[jmc247]

I fixed your quote. Lorna Dane did not become Polaris until Uncanny X-Men #97. In the original X-Men series, she is simply Lorna Dane.


She was also called Magneto the Second (M2) until Uncanny X-Men #52.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I fixed your quote. Lorna Dane did not become Polaris until Uncanny X-Men #97. In the original X-Men series, she is simply Lorna Dane.

Fair point.

The Avengers had stautes and such. Maybe the X-men need some too.

They had a statue to Jean, and the memorial garden, but all of those are still at the abandoned mansion. And I don't see the new pad in SF being all that much of a long term base, even still, to lay down roots.

Roy Thomas preferred The Avengers over The X-Men (aside from the Factor Three storylines). It's hard to believe he's the same writer on these books given the story quality. I believe Roy Thomas got inspired by Neal Adams which improved his stories a great deal, but the book was doomed for cancellation despite their success.

Indeed. I credit Adams with a lot of the success in the latter part. His panels were just that little bit more dynamic.

The Vanisher did make a sort of comeback in X-Factor #11-12 & made a cameo in Fallen Angels #1-8. He also has an interesting story by Mary Jo Duffy & Dave Cockrum in Bizarre Adventures #27 with Nightcrawler.

Didn't he show up in X-Force at some point, or am I imagining that?

I also like the Roy Thomas created Banshee, Sunfire, & Factor Three with the Neal Adams co-created Savage Land Mutates.

I know that we often credit the 75 relaunch with being so much more diverse, but I do think it's worth pointing out that half the membership were already established characters. Sunfire and Banshee had already shown up in Uncanny, and Wolverine was a Hulk character.

I do agree the X-Men really took off with the 1975 revamp.

And I don't think that many would disagree with that.

Like what, exactly? The current setup is not really that different from the previous; the X-Men are mutants, they try to protect their community, and they have other random hero adventures based on whatever happens along in their neighbourhood.

I'd debate that. In the past the X-Men have had far more than just a singular function. Their primary purpose was to teach mutants to control their powers. The team came about through that. But the X-Men never just sat on their laurels. They sought out other mutants who were a threat to the world, and either tried to get them round to their way of thinking or take them down. They had to be partially proactive. These weren't just 'random adventures'. They came about because of a number of diverse views, and ideological approaches to mutants - and what people would do to uphold them.

It used to be quite complex.

What we have now is a lush new pad and Cyclops telling all mutants that they can come and join their community. That's all we know is going on for sure. And that strikes me as a bit dull, long term.

Part of the problem for me is i didn't grow up reading silver age books so the style is a little bit awkward for me to get into and i feel like it has dated really bad.

Me neither. A lot of the original Uncanny is really hard to read, by modern standards. It doesn't stand up. But then I'd argue that a lot of silver age Avengers or Fantastic Four stuff doesn't, either.

Yeah I never really liked the o5 I always thought of them as my parents Xmen The ANAD xmen were cool cause they had different kinda people on their teams and their powers seemed to be more ....mutantous, The Aussie team seemed interesting to me because they were liked the rebels, things seemed more desperate for them, I like the NM cause they were teenagers and just really good characters and storytelling

and the team i grew up with....Gen X didnt have much interaction with the orginal five, i actually resented the fact that they seemed to just leave them at that Mass school. none of the teams taht i thought were interesting did....The o5 never really seemed to never be that interested in anyone but themselves, they seemed like the upper classmen in highschool.

I certainly think that to a certain degree that is part of the problem. There was no chink in the O5's armour, at the time. They were heroes, and they always came out on top. But then, so did pretty much all other heroes teams of that time. The idea of killing off one of your principle hero cast was just such a radical concept, even when Claremont did it, but certainly in the initial run of Uncanny.

The original X-Men were very much designed in "The Fantastic Four tradition". And could you really have seen them genuinely and permanently killing off a member of the F4 back in the silver age?

I really think that we need to see some proper deconstruction and reconstruction of the surviving O5 members in the core books, to show modern readers why they are important, and what IS so great about them. But sadly, I don't think it likely we'll see that some time soon.

[CMBMOOL]

I must say besides First Class and the Lost years by Byrne, when have we ever see the O5 in action together and the other X-men are inspired by their abilities, like in the Avengers ? :frown:

[AcesX1X]

It's hard for the X-Men to respect the founding members, because when the first of the new gen met them ----

---they had to rescue them from monster island comatose failure.

Not the best first impression by any standards.

[DDM]

...and Wolverine was a Hulk character.

Although Wolverine first appears in Incredible Hulk #180-181, he was always meant to join the X-Men. Wolverine's main purpose was to be one of the new X-Men.




What we have now is a lush new pad and Cyclops telling all mutants that they can come and join their community. That's all we know is going on for sure. And that strikes me as a bit dull, long term.

Again, the editors are in a coma. They have no clue what the X-Men are about.




I certainly think that to a certain degree that is part of the problem. There was no chink in the O5's armour, at the time. They were heroes, and they always came out on top. But then, so did pretty much all other heroes teams of that time. The idea of killing off one of your principle hero cast was just such a radical concept, even when Claremont did it, but certainly in the initial run of Uncanny.

The X-Men were still mistrusted by the public since they refuse to give up their real identities to the general public; this created some tension & scorn with the general public. Chris Claremont used this very well with the revamped team too.

The original X-Men were very much designed in "The Fantastic Four tradition". And could you really have seen them genuinely and permanently killing off a member of the F4 back in the silver age?

No, originally Charles Xavier died against Grotesk in X-Men #42 in an attempt to raise sales. It did not work.

I really think that we need to see some proper deconstruction and reconstruction of the surviving O5 members in the core books, to show modern readers why they are important, and what IS so great about them. But sadly, I don't think it likely we'll see that some time soon.

This was already properly explored in 1986's X-Factor.

[Frank]

I like the idea of Marvel using the originals as more iconic figures. Angel has been in more than a few other books and he's basicaly Marvel's top winged character. He should at least be as important as Hawkman. Cyclops has become this great field leader, he could join the Avengers. Heck look at Jean: when she reappeared from her cocoon it happened in the Avengers book and remember how cool it would have been to see her joined her and make the character even more important to the scope of things. She's been the most powerful Earth-based character for so many years. Anyway I would not be opposed to the idea of turning more of the focus in the X books to them and outside.

[CaptainCanada]

I'd debate that. In the past the X-Men have had far more than just a singular function. Their primary purpose was to teach mutants to control their powers. The team came about through that. But the X-Men never just sat on their laurels. They sought out other mutants who were a threat to the world, and either tried to get them round to their way of thinking or take them down. They had to be partially proactive. These weren't just 'random adventures'. They came about because of a number of diverse views, and ideological approaches to mutants - and what people would do to uphold them.

It used to be quite complex.

What we have now is a lush new pad and Cyclops telling all mutants that they can come and join their community. That's all we know is going on for sure. And that strikes me as a bit dull, long term.

I think you're jumping the gun, given that there's only been two issues (four, I suppose, if you count Ellis' AXM).

[DeniseXfrost]

I think you're jumping the gun, given that there's only been two issues (four, I suppose, if you count Ellis' AXM).
No, he's drawing his sword.

[nikbackm]

No, he's drawing his sword.

It is already drawn. :biggrin:

[DeniseXfrost]

It is already drawn. :biggrin:
Oh well yeah, my bad.

[limerick]

No, he's drawing his sword.
Ha,Ha!Veeerrrrrrry witty.