Liz Phair

[Shellhead]

I was never a big fan, though I did like a couple of her hits okay back in the '90s. So I was amused to see an ad for her upcoming concert, with the words "Playing the Songs from Exile in Guyville" in big letters. I guess that foray into pop music a few years ago was a pretty bad career move.

[jesse_custer]

I hope she continues to do this throughout the country. I really like Exile in Guyville.

[AlistairCrane]

She's performing the songs from Guyville because she recently released a 15th anniversary special edition of the album.

I would never have gotten into her were it not for "Why Can't I" a few years ago.

FYI: Liz Phair writes the music for the new 90210 show...I saw her name in the credits last night!

[Ontir]

Liz Phair is one of those great artists like Marshall Crenshaw and Chris Isaak who, for whatever reason, just don't seem to break the Top 40, at least not repeatedly. What they do is fantastic, just not pre-digested, I guess.

[Shellhead]

Liz Phair is one of those great artists like Marshall Crenshaw and Chris Isaak who, for whatever reason, just don't seem to break the Top 40, at least not repeatedly. What they do is fantastic, just not pre-digested, I guess.

Actually, she did a very lite, pop album in 2003 that did indeed land a single in the Top 40. And the album itself (self-titled) got up to #27 on the Billboard chart. That's why I'm chuckling that she is explicitly indentifying this tour as the Guyville songs and not this pop junk that most of her long-term fans hated. While that pop album did well, Top 40 fans tend to have short memories and minimal sense of nostalgia.

More interesting is that she is supposedly releasing a new album in 2008, but this tour isn't going to feature those new songs. More pop? Or did the album get shelved partway through production?

[AlistairCrane]

Actually, she did a very lite, pop album in 2003 that did indeed land a single in the Top 40. And the album itself (self-titled) got up to #27 on the Billboard chart. That's why I'm chuckling that she is explicitly indentifying this tour as the Guyville songs and not this pop junk that most of her long-term fans hated. While that pop album did well, Top 40 fans tend to have short memories and minimal sense of nostalgia.

More interesting is that she is supposedly releasing a new album in 2008, but this tour isn't going to feature those new songs. More pop? Or did the album get shelved partway through production?

Her "pop" album that you mentioned is much better than Guyville, Whipsmart, and whitechocolatespaceegg. It was her follow-up, "Somebody's Miracle", which was much less poppy, that bombed,

[mgs]

Liz Phair is one of those great artists

she USED to be one, until, her apparent idol, Brittany Spears took over. I wonder what amazing 'artist' inspired her album that they're saying didn't come out, Jessica Simpson?

[AlistairCrane]

she USED to be one, until, her apparent idol, Brittany Spears took over. I wonder what amazing 'artist' inspired her album that they're saying didn't come out, Jessica Simpson?

Huh? I like Britney Spears but Liz Phair's self-titled "pop" album sounds nothing like Britney. Avril Lavigne, maybe, but Britney, no.

If it hadn't been for "Why Can't I" and the "pop" album I never would've paid any attention to Liz Phair. Until then, she was just another one of those disposable chick singer-songwriters of the 90s (see Tori Amos, Sarah McLachlan, Alanis Morrisette, Fiona Apple, Sheryl Crow, etc.).

[mgs]

Liz publically stated that she decided to go 'pop' because she was specifically into and trying to emulate her newfound heroine, Brittany Spears. Of course, this was before the Spears' collapse, but still, a very sad declaration....

[AlistairCrane]

Liz publically stated that she decided to go 'pop' because she was specifically into and trying to emulate her newfound heroine, Brittany Spears. Of course, this was before the Spears' collapse, but still, a very sad declaration....

That's not sad at all. Going pop actually allowed her to have some hits and become famous, which is the whole point of entering the music business. And if you've listened to a Britney record, you'll know it does not sound like Liz Phair's self-titled album, so it's not an emulation of Britney at all. Do you actually begrudge Liz for wanting some commercial success?

P.S. It's Britney, not Brittany.

[mgs]

That's not sad at all. Going pop actually allowed her to have some hits and become famous, which is the whole point of entering the music business.

Do you actually begrudge Liz for wanting some commercial success?

P.S. It's Britney, not Brittany.

A. that just shows how much I pay attention to Ms. Spears.
B. The whole point of becoming a musician is not always to have hits and become famous.
C.I don't, but they way in which she went about it, amounts to nothing more than style over substance. An aptly termed, 'selling out' to describe that process.

[Johnny_Luck]

B. The whole point of becoming a musician is not always to have hits and become famous.
C.I don't, but they way in which she went about it, amounts to nothing more than style over substance. An aptly termed, 'selling out' to describe that process.

There is a difference though between being a musician and going into the music industry. The whole point of being in the music industry is to make money and become known. The whole point of being a musician is doing something you love.

[mgs]

There is a difference though between being a musician and going into the music industry. The whole point of being in the music industry is to make money and become known. The whole point of being a musician is doing something you love.

I agree. The only point being, does using one's voice make one a 'musician'?

[mattx110]

I agree. The only point being, does using one's voice make one a 'musician'?
Yes, it does.

That was easy.

[AlistairCrane]

There is a difference though between being a musician and going into the music industry. The whole point of being in the music industry is to make money and become known. The whole point of being a musician is doing something you love.

Following that logic, there are no musicians in the music industry. All the ones who are "doing something they love" are local artists with a small following.

If an artist is so serious about being an artiste, they should release their music for free over the internet and work at the Gap full time, folding shirts.

[Johnny_Luck]

The point is calling someone a sell-out for doing something that gets them a decent paycheck and gets them more credit by more people is ridiculous.

[AlistairCrane]

The point is calling someone a sell-out for doing something that gets them a decent paycheck and gets them more credit by more people is ridiculous.

I totally agree with that.

[Shellhead]

The point is calling someone a sell-out for doing something that gets them a decent paycheck and gets them more credit by more people is ridiculous.

You missed the point. Liz Phair is practically the dictionary definition of a sell-out: a critically-acclaimed musician who ditched the qualities that made her critically-acclaimed in favor of emulating bland pop music.

[howyadoin]

That's not sad at all.It really is. Britney Spears has always been a pathetic excuse for a role model, in every possible way.

[howyadoin]

The point is calling someone a sell-out for doing something that gets them a decent paycheck and gets them more credit by more people is ridiculous.Define "credit".

[leonaozaki]

The point is calling someone a sell-out for doing something that gets them a decent paycheck and gets them more credit by more people is ridiculous.

A: Rod Stewart
B: Metallica
C: Liz Phair

[AlistairCrane]

It really is. Britney Spears has always been a pathetic excuse for a role model, in every possible way.

Britney Spears has never been a role model. You're on ignore now.

[AlistairCrane]

You missed the point. Liz Phair is practically the dictionary definition of a sell-out: a critically-acclaimed musician who ditched the qualities that made her critically-acclaimed in favor of emulating bland pop music.

"Bland"? Her "pop" album was the most sonically-pleasing album to date, and better than her 90s crap.

[howyadoin]

Britney Spears has never been a role model.That's what I said.

You're on ignore now.Okay, then.

[leonaozaki]

"Bland"? Her "pop" album was the most sonically-pleasing album to date, and better than her 90s crap.

Wow. Calling Exile in Guyville, Whipsmart and Whitechocolatespaceegg "crap" is almost enough for me to ignore you.

rob

[howyadoin]

Wow. Calling Exile in Guyville, Whipsmart and Whitechocolatespaceegg "crap" is almost enough for me to ignore you.Whatever you do, don't say anything about Britney.

[leonaozaki]

Whatever you do, don't say anything about Britney.

I know. What the hell?

I guess I'm not sufficiently "enlightened" enough to believe that Britney makes good music, or even music that's fun to listen to.

rob

[howyadoin]

I guess I'm not sufficiently "enlightened" enough to believe that Britney makes good music, or even music that's fun to listen to.Geez, man. Where's your appreciation for generic teen pop?

[Jonathan Bogart]

You'd think that someone who wanted to talk about music on a message board would first familiarize themselves with the kinds of musical opinions they'd be likely to encounter on the message board. Am I the only person who's ever lurked first?

[howyadoin]

Am I the only person who's ever lurked first?You lurked here? That must've been back in the Stone Age.

[cosmoboy]

The point is calling someone a sell-out for doing something that gets them a decent paycheck and gets them more credit by more people is ridiculous.

I agree and say that the term 'sell out' is terribly over used.

[Shellhead]

...the term 'sell out' is terribly over used.

I agree that the term sell-out is terribly over-used. However, Liz Phair is the perfect example of a sell-out.

[MartinRedmond]

I thought she stopped after Cinco de Mayo? :X

[Shellhead]

The New York Times printed an especially withering critique of Liz Phair's self-titled 2003 album. The review also includes a good look at Phair's overall career up to that point:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A00E5D91338F931A15755C0A9659C8B 63

"Liz Phair's Exile in Avril-ville

"...It is, Ms. Phair has suggested, her bid for center stage -- the moment when she will finally make the leap from indie-rock quasi-stardom to teen-pop levels of superstardom.

"Instead, she has committed an embarrassing form of career suicide.

"The album introduces a new Phair: a divorced, 36-year-old single mom who nonetheless gushes like a teenager through relentlessly upbeat songs with bland choruses like ''Rock me all night!'' and ''I am extraordinary/ If you'd ever get to know me'' -- ironic, yes, but somewhat limply and shallowly so.

"...Not only will Ms. Phair alienate her old fan base, as she has defensively acknowledged in recent interviews, but in trying to remodel herself as a contemporary Avril Lavigne or Alanis Morissette, she's revealed herself to be astonishingly tone-deaf to her own strengths."

[cosmoboy]

I agree that the term sell-out is terribly over-used. However, Liz Phair is the perfect example of a sell-out.

Okay. I don't know enough about her to argue that, and I lack any sort of desire to research it.

[AlistairCrane]

I don't understand why people get their panties in a wad about "selling out".

We live in a capitalist society. Therefore we are all capitalists. Therefore, Liz Phair should do whatever it takes to gain more capital for herself. Therefore she should create a pop album that will sell better than her previous records to make more money.

Simple as pie.

[jesse_custer]

Yeah, all artists should fall in line with the status quo. Awesome philosophy.

[Johnny_Luck]

Yeah it makes so much more sense for all artists to want to be poor and cater to the people who hate artists that are known among the majority of people rather than the small groups who want to pretend their music can be the only true, good stuff.

[jesse_custer]

Are you trying [and failing] to lampoon me? Because I haven't said all artists should do anything.

[J. Robb]

I was a big fan of Phair's 90s stuff, but I also liked "Why Can't I?" It's a nice, fun song and I was always amused that every radio station I heard it on seemed to miss that there's a "fucked" in there.

[Jonathan Bogart]

Anyone who thinks capitalism is an unambiguous good is a real candidate for the ignore button.

[Johnny_Luck]

Are you trying [and failing] to lampoon me? Because I haven't said all artists should do anything.

You implied it was bad for artists to want to be known and make money. Which quite frankly isf indie or rock or any music fans want to either hate on other artists or music just because so than in general artists are above those type of people.

[jesse_custer]

No, I was commenting on how shitty music would be if everyone did the same thing.

[Shellhead]

I don't understand why people get their panties in a wad about "selling out".

We live in a capitalist society. Therefore we are all capitalists. Therefore, Liz Phair should do whatever it takes to gain more capital for herself. Therefore she should create a pop album that will sell better than her previous records to make more money.

Simple as pie.

There is so much more to music and every other creative endeavor than maximizing profits. By your standards, Alan Moore is a loser because he has failed to cash in on big Hollywood productions of his comics. But the vast majority of posters here at CBR respect Alan Moore as a talented and innovative writer who has elevated the entire industry. We hope that he has been able to enjoy a comfortable life as a result of his work, but we will still respect him even if he isn't rich.

[Johnny_Luck]

That's not my theory though and if you actually tried using the context of the conversation and whats been said you know that.

My point is how ridiculous it is that there are so many people willing to call artists sell outs, or say there music sucks, just because they rather hate on a genre of music or the idea that someone they liked is no longer serving to them and their clique and is rather serving to the general public and making some money doing what they do.

[leonaozaki]

I don't understand why people get their panties in a wad about "selling out".

We live in a capitalist society. Therefore we are all capitalists. Therefore, Liz Phair should do whatever it takes to gain more capital for herself. Therefore she should create a pop album that will sell better than her previous records to make more money.

Simple as pie.

This is so wrong on so many levels. It's like the Platonic ideal of an internet post!

rob

[mgs]

Geez, man. Where's your appreciation for generic teen pop?

lol!! :D
tenten

[jesse_custer]

That's not my theory though

I wasn't responding to your theory in the first place.

[mgs]

My point is how ridiculous it is that there are so many people willing to call artists sell outs, or say there music sucks, just because they rather hate on a genre of music or the idea that someone they liked is no longer serving to them and their clique and is rather serving to the general public and making some money doing what they do.

that's not my point.

Cases IN point:

Wrongly transitioned = Liz Phair
Correctly transitioned = Gwen Stefani

[Shellhead]

McDonald's sells a lot of hamburgers every day, but most people will never mistake McDonald's for a five-star restaurant.

[AlistairCrane]

There is so much more to music and every other creative endeavor than maximizing profits. By your standards, Alan Moore is a loser because he has failed to cash in on big Hollywood productions of his comics. But the vast majority of posters here at CBR respect Alan Moore as a talented and innovative writer who has elevated the entire industry. We hope that he has been able to enjoy a comfortable life as a result of his work, but we will still respect him even if he isn't rich.

Who is this "We" you speak of? You really shouldn't generalize and attempt to speak for a large group of people, because I'm certainly not part of that "we". Unless you're purposely trying to exclude me.

[howyadoin]

Who is this "We" you speak of?"...the vast majority of posters here at CBR."
You really shouldn't generalize and attempt to speak for a large group of people, because I'm certainly not part of that "we". Unless you're purposely trying to exclude me.Here's a tip: "the vast majority" doesn't mean "all".

[Johnny_Luck]

that's not my point.

Cases IN point:

Wrongly transitioned = Liz Phair
Correctly transitioned = Gwen Stefani

So her fans get top decide what type of music she should or want to do next? Honestly Gwen is super popular right now but shes not that good at whats shes doing now., Liz was good at what she went into when she made that transition.

Geez, man. Where's your appreciation for generic teen pop?

Yeah god forbid anything with a solid beat and a singer actually singing be liked. we should all run and admire the stuff where screeching words together somehow makes lyrics and blaring instruments means making music.

[howyadoin]

Yeah god forbid anything with a solid beat and a singer actually singing be liked.Um, we were talking about Britney Spears.

[mattx110]

Yeah god forbid anything with a solid beat and a singer actually singing be liked. we should all run and admire the stuff where screeching words together somehow makes lyrics and blaring instruments means making music.
This is what is known on the internet as a "false dichotomy".

It's basically an empty argument because you're making such an ill-concieved assumption of the opposing side that there's no adequate realm for comparison.

I won't comment on the grammar, in case Michael P stops by. It'd be rude to take that away from him.

[Johnny_Luck]

This is what is known on the internet as a "false dichotomy".

It's basically an empty argument because you're making such an ill-conceived assumption of the opposing side that there's no adequate realm for comparison.

I won't comment on the grammar, in case Michael P stops by. It'd be rude to take that away from him.

No My point which clearly went over your head is just because you might not like an artist or the style they choose does not mean you should be making ridiculous out in left field comments like all pop music/ or at least popular pop music is -generic pop music or all pop singers can't sing, etc.

I might not like metal because from what I have heard of it I know I much rather get words out of the people speaking into the mic, though if people like that stuff, than good for them.

I might not like rap because I rather people single with the beat than just speak with a beat behind them, but I willing to admit there are some good ones and that people who like it have that right.

attacking liz for going into the genre or any artist just cause its not your style, thats when I really think people should stop taking you guys seriously.

[Adam C]

We live in a capitalist society. Therefore we are all capitalists. Therefore, Liz Phair should do whatever it takes to gain more capital for herself. Therefore she should create a pop album that will sell better than her previous records to make more money.

Simple as pie.

Remind me, how does this make the music any good again?

[mattx110]

No My point which clearly went over your head is just because you might not like an artist or the style they choose does not mean you should be making ridiculous out in left field comments like all pop music/ or at least popular pop music is -generic pop music or all pop singers can't sing, etc.

I might not like metal because from what I have heard of it I know I much rather get words out of the people speaking into the mic, though if people like that stuff, than good for them.

I might not like rap because I rather people single with the beat than just speak with a beat behind them, but I willing to admit there are some good ones and that people who like it have that right.

attacking liz for going into the genre or any artist just cause its not your style, thats when I really think people should stop taking you guys seriously.


Yeah god forbid anything with a solid beat and a singer actually singing be liked. we should all run and admire the stuff where screeching words together somehow makes lyrics and blaring instruments means making music.

Show me where in this statement that could be reconciled...

And everyone here likes pop music. Ask them. But slutty singers that cater to 12 year old girls and dance around like they have nothing else to offer (with vocal tracks so auto-tuned and processed that we honestly can't tell if they can sing at all) are a specific kind of pop music that is distasteful to those of us who like to listen to our music.

And this comes from someone who has no trouble listening to Britney Spears. Well, I like a couple songs, well, I like the songwriters for the intelligence they were seemingly able to slip in without anyone noticing because they were a bit distracted by the hot blonde teen.

[Adam C]

And everyone here likes pop music. Ask them.

Please...I only listening to screeching harpies with blaring instruments like Josh Ritter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZpeoJaqjDk) and the New Pornographers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq9-5FjQb8g).

[Johnny_Luck]

Please...I only listening to screeching harpies with blaring instruments like Josh Ritter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZpeoJaqjDk) and the New Pornographers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq9-5FjQb8g).

again love how this proves the point of whats been said so went over your head.

[leonaozaki]

again love how this proves the point of whats been said so went over your head.

Best. Post. Ever.

rob

[mattx110]

again love how this proves the point of whats been said so went over your head.
I think it proves that if you want to make a point, don't go for the contrary arguments, as they just confuse and distort your point. Also, assuming anyone who doesn't like Britney doesn't like anything with a "solid beat and a singer", even if that's not what you really meant, tarnishes any more serious point you're making, by making it clear you're not actually paying attention to the people you're talking with.

[J. Robb]

Was Liz Phair's switch to a poppier sound really that big a switch? I took it that she just wanted to lighten up a little.

If she really wanted to "sell out" for mass appeal, would she put a song on her album called "Hot White Cum"?

[AlistairCrane]

Remind me, how does this make the music any good again?

For one thing, her "Liz Phair" album is the most sonically-interesting and catchy album of her career. Those are the two most important things to making a good, listenable album. She accomplished that, and her self-titled album will always be my favourite.

[Johnny_Luck]

I think it proves that if you want to make a point, don't go for the contrary arguments, as they just confuse and distort your point. Also, assuming anyone who doesn't like Britney doesn't like anything with a "solid beat and a singer", even if that's not what you really meant, tarnishes any more serious point you're making, by making it clear you're not actually paying attention to the people you're talking with.

My point was, people in this thread, this section and on this board among others have a horrible habit generalizing that the mainstream pop music is automatically filled with people who can only sing with help, who can't sing cause they lip sync while putting on a show, rather than just playing their instruments and singing, that the other stuff like like is automatically better because its not on top 40 stations or that by going into that area makes you a generic artist/sell-out is wrong and is as a ridiculous statement as claiming all metal is like the stuff which turns me away from it, etc.

[AlistairCrane]

If she really wanted to "sell out" for mass appeal, would she put a song on her album called "Hot White Cum"?

Exactamundo.

[AlistairCrane]

My point was, people in this thread, this section and on this board among others have a horrible habit generalizing that the mainstream pop music is automatically filled with people who can only sing with help, who can't sing cause they lip sync while putting on a show, rather than just playing their instruments and singing, that the other stuff like like is automatically better because its not on top 40 stations or that by going into that area makes you a generic artist/sell-out is wrong and is as a ridiculous statement as claiming all metal is like the stuff which turns me away from it, etc.

Agreed. I hate this stupid elitist attitude that stuff that doesn't get played on Top 40 radio is so much "better" than the stuff that does.

[mattx110]

My point was, people in this thread, this section and on this board among others have a horrible habit generalizing that the mainstream pop music is automatically filled with people who can only sing with help, who can't sing cause they lip sync while putting on a show, rather than just playing their instruments and singing, that the other stuff like like is automatically better because its not on top 40 stations or that by going into that area makes you a generic artist/sell-out is wrong and is as a ridiculous statement as claiming all metal is like the stuff which turns me away from it, etc.
So, you turn to..... Britney Spears! Who has lipsynced so she could dance around during her shows?

Some people want to listen to musicians, not the producer.

[Johnny_Luck]

So, you turn to..... Britney Spears! Who has lipsynced so she could dance around during her shows?

Some people want to listen to musicians, not the producer.

When did I turn to Britney spears? Not once in this thread did I.

There's a difference between a musician who is the one playing the instrument and the one who can sing whom is called a singer. Their both artists, and yes they can be both, but harping on people who aren't both, is again ridiculous.

[mattx110]

When did I turn to Britney spears? Not once in this thread did I.

There's a difference between a musician who is the one playing the instrument and the one who can sing whom is called a singer. Their both artists, and yes they can be both, but harping on people who aren't both, is again ridiculous.
Voice=an instrument.

A singer is a musician. Did I just blow minds?

[Adam C]

My point was, people in this thread, this section and on this board among others have a horrible habit generalizing that the mainstream pop music is automatically filled with people who can only sing with help...

Remind me, who in this thread actually said that as opposed to saying they felt Liz Phair's pop stuff was simply quite generic? And is it any worse than pigeonholing anyone who dislikes a particular style of pop you favour as hating music "with a solid beat and a singer actually singing"?

[Adam C]

For one thing, her "Liz Phair" album is the most sonically-interesting and catchy album of her career. Those are the two most important things to making a good, listenable album. She accomplished that, and her self-titled album will always be my favourite.

So what does that have to do with making money?

[AlistairCrane]

So what does that have to do with making money?

I was asked how making money can make an album sound better, and I answered it. Please read all the posts before jumping in like that. kthnxbye!

[Adam C]

I was asked how making money can make an album sound better, and I answered it. Please read all the posts before jumping in like that. kthnxbye!

But you didn't. In response to all of the criticisms of Phair selling out by adopting a mainstream pop musical style you merely justified her decision on economic grounds, which was the post I originally quoted. Yet everyone's criticism was made on artistic grounds.

[howyadoin]

But you didn't. In response to all of the criticisms of Phair selling out by adopting a mainstream pop musical style you merely justified her decision on economic grounds, which was the post I originally quoted. Yet everyone's criticism was made on artistic grounds.Surely you can't be suggesting that there's a difference between commerce and art. Why, that would just sound elitist!

[Johnny_Luck]

Yet suggesting making money and still being a good artist can't be suggested either.

[Jonathan Bogart]

Hey everyone! I have a great idea for a productive conversation! Let's all make highly generalized absolute statements based on differing subjective responses to a particular event, and then get annoyed when people disagree!

[howyadoin]

Hey everyone! I have a great idea for a productive conversation! Let's all make highly generalized absolute statements based on differing subjective responses to a particular event, and then get annoyed when people disagree!Sellouts and elitists are like Nazis!

[Adam C]

Yet suggesting making money and still being a good artist can't be suggested either.

It's so cute the way you put words into others' mouths.

[Adam C]

Sellouts and elitists are like Nazis!

YOU'RE a Nazi, calling elitists Nazis, you Nazi! I bet you like prepared piano pieces too!

[leonaozaki]

Hey everyone! I have a great idea for a productive conversation! Let's all make highly generalized absolute statements based on differing subjective responses to a particular event, and then get annoyed when people disagree!

But...you just described the Internet in its totality. Must...turn...off...computer.

rob

[AlistairCrane]

But you didn't. In response to all of the criticisms of Phair selling out by adopting a mainstream pop musical style you merely justified her decision on economic grounds, which was the post I originally quoted. Yet everyone's criticism was made on artistic grounds.

Yes I did, sweetheart. Making more money allows you to use higher quality equipment and high-end songwriters, thus producing better music. It's obvious. I'm surprised you needed me to tell you that when you should've gotten it on your own.

[jesse_custer]

More money = better music.

First thing I learned from my father when he passed his guitar down to me. He said, "You can practice all you want, you can be creative and maybe even inspire a listener--but if you ever want to be a great guitarist, you have to make a lot of money."

Empirically, I have tested this statement, and it is true. As a young teenager, I had maybe $10 or $20 in my wallet on any given day, and I would miss notes, couldn't keep time, make a fool of myself.

But I noticed, after my grandparents were especially generous on my 17th birthday, that I could play better and inspire pretty much everyone who listened with $80 in my wallet.

Another lesson I learned the hard way: one $100 bill will help you more than five $20 bills.

[leonaozaki]

Yes I did, sweetheart. Making more money allows you to use higher quality equipment and high-end songwriters, thus producing better music. It's obvious. I'm surprised you needed me to tell you that when you should've gotten it on your own.

Yeah, this is going to have to backed up with some evidence (besides Liz Phair).

Sweetheart.

[howyadoin]

Yeah, this is going to have to backed up with some evidence (besides Liz Phair).

Sweetheart.How 'bout the Rolling Stones? Clearly, Bridges to Babylon is a much better album than Exile on Main Street.

[leonaozaki]

How 'bout the Rolling Stones? Clearly, Bridges to Babylon is a much better album than Exile on Main Street.

Exactly! I think Bridges to Babylon also sold more units, which clearly makes it the better album than that also-ran Exile.

Why, you'd almost have to be a..a Nazi to think otherwise!

rob

[Shellhead]

Exactly! I think Bridges to Babylon also sold more units, which clearly makes it the better album than that also-ran Exile.

Why, you'd almost have to be a..a Nazi to think otherwise!

rob

leonaozaki = nazi leo oak

[Johnny_Luck]

It's so cute the way you put words into others' mouths.

Its so cute that that whole point was not putting others words in their mouths but showing how ridiculous their general statements are by being just as ridiculous. I was hoping you could show you could at least try and get that point, I guess I have to point it out directly to you from now on.

[Infra-Man]

Yes I did, sweetheart. Making more money allows you to use higher quality equipment and high-end songwriters, thus producing better music. It's obvious. I'm surprised you needed me to tell you that when you should've gotten it on your own.

Because clearly whenever a band makes more money, they always get better.

There has never been a case where a band made more money and used higher-quality equipment that alters their sound; or where a band wrote tepid, middle-of-the-road music (that has none of the daring or inventiveness of their previous work) in order to appeal to a wider audience; or where a band made an over-produced, glossy album that has been so tweaked by Pro Tools there's no soul left in it.

Money may not always be the root of all evil in the music biz, but it's naive to suggest it's always the root of all good.

[Slam_Bradley]

Britney Spears has never been a role model. You're on ignore now.


This is arguably the most bizarre thing I've seen in years here.

[mattx110]

Surely you can't be suggesting that there's a difference between commerce and art. Why, that would just sound elitist!
If you're selling music, it's commerce. Good business is not trusting the musician, getting them the time and money they need to put together what they want to so they're capable of doing a good job. Good commerce is Britney comes in at 1, leaves by 3, and you can produce the hell out of whatever she gave you and the "artist" doesn't stick his nose where it doesn't belong.
Its so cute that that whole point was not putting others words in their mouths but showing how ridiculous their general statements are by being just as ridiculous. I was hoping you could show you could at least try and get that point, I guess I have to point it out directly to you from now on.
Stop pretending you're being subtle.

You're being less clear than I usually am.

[GRANT!]

My personal issue with Liz Phair is while she is a a talented and daring lyricist she doesn't have much of a gift for melody and she relies heavily on collaborators. I think this benefitted her on Exile from Guyville where the lack of muscianship and odd hooks worked for her songs but when she started trying to create "real" pop songs she and her producers opted for more generic sounding melodies. That last record sounded like some Sheryl Crowe outtakes (something Miracles).

I'd compare her to someone like PJ Harvey who is a talented lyricist and musician. She knows how a song should work and often subverts that and creates something more interesting. I think that's something Phair doesn't quite understand.

[Adam C]

Yes I did, sweetheart. Making more money allows you to use higher quality equipment and high-end songwriters, thus producing better music.

So by that logic shouldn't Rod Stewart be producing some of the best music known to man?

[howyadoin]

So by that logic shouldn't Rod Stewart be producing some of the best music known to man?Ditto Eric Clapton.

And probably Jessica Simpson.

[Adam C]

Ditto Eric Clapton.

And probably Jessica Simpson.

Oooooo, don't forget David Foster and Jim Steinman!

[thehod]

So by that logic shouldn't Rod Stewart be producing some of the best music known to man?

Ditto Eric Clapton.

And probably Jessica Simpson.

And people enter heaven to the sounds of Paul McCartney and Michael Jacksons "Say, Say, Say."

[The Beast Of Yucca Flats]

Because clearly whenever a band makes more money, they always get better.

There has never been a case where a band made more money and used higher-quality equipment that alters their sound; or where a band wrote tepid, middle-of-the-road music (that has none of the daring or inventiveness of their previous work) in order to appeal to a wider audience; or where a band made an over-produced, glossy album that has been so tweaked by Pro Tools there's no soul left in it.

Money may not always be the root of all evil in the music biz, but it's naive to suggest it's always the root of all good.

Cue the inevitable denial in 2, 3, 4...

[howyadoin]

Oooooo, don't forget David Foster and Jim Steinman!If they teamed up with Dianne Warren and Glen Ballard, they could form the new Axis of Evil.