What's the deal with the Rogues then?

[daredevil1990]

I picked up Rogues Revenge 1 and 2, I really enjoyed them and the Rogues themselves are fantastic characters. But, since I'm not that familiar with some of DC's charaters, I'm a bit puzzled.

How come they won't kill a speedster? From what I worked out, probably read it all the wrong way though, they respect the Flash?

Also why does Zoom tell Inertia that he stopped someone from being a better person by killing the Flash? Again, I'd came to the same conclusion as before.

[Zero Hunter]

The Rouges realized early on that if you actully kill someone like the Flash you end up with the whole Justice League out for your blood. It brings way to much trouble down on them to actully kill a hero. All the trouble they have had lately is because they crossed the line and killed Bart Allen.

Zoom has this twisted philosphy that the way to make a hero better is through tragedy. He tried to do this to Wally by killing his unborn twins and such. I think what he meant is that by killing Bart himself and not someone close to Bart Inertia screwed up the way things Zoom think they should be.

[Jack]

Right before Bart died he had an issue where he decided that he wanted to become a better hero so that he could join the JLA. Plus he'd had some pretty rough stuff happen to him, so really a properly characterised Zoom would think he was coming along nicely.

[Seraku]

Cold knows that if they actually killed a Flash bad stuff would happen to them like having one of their members killed and rest being banished to a planet with monster on it along with the Joker.

[daredevil1990]

I hate to do this to yet another thread, since it's normally why I make them, but what are some good Rogue or Zoom centric trades? I was thinking about picking up the Fastest Man Alive maxi-series since I really need to brush up on my overall dc knowledge (only been into dc for like 8 months so I'm still pretty unaware of the history and stuff).

thanks for your replies so far though!

[burtle]

Get the Johns run on The Flash, specifically volume 2, titled Rogues I believe which features an amazing issue about Captain Cold that fits right into Rogues' Revenge #2. Zoom shows up in Vol 4 I believe, titled Blitz.

[Zero Hunter]

Yeah go for the Johns Flash trades. Wonderland, Rouges, Blitz, and Rouges War especially if you can find them.

[fly on the wall]

Zoom is like crazy now, the solution to making old villains modern is to make them crazy like Joker. Gorrila Grodd is constantly eating people and burbling up blood, it's like he has really bad gingivitus. Johns has ruined these characters, but there's not much to do about it now.

Mirror Master, Captain Cold, Heat Wave and Weather Wizard aren't entirely ruined yet, but give Johns some time. He'll wreck them all.

[Zero Hunter]

Zoom is like crazy now, the solution to making old villains modern is to make them crazy like Joker. Gorrila Grodd is constantly eating people and burbling up blood, it's like he has really bad gingivitus. Johns has ruined these characters, but there's not much to do about it now.

Mirror Master, Captain Cold, Heat Wave and Weather Wizard aren't entirely ruined yet, but give Johns some time. He'll wreck them all.


You are out of your mind. If Johns had not taken the Rouges and actully given them some character you would not even see them these days. He basiclly saved almost all these character form becoming cannon fodder in some big event by making them so good. He created Zoom so he can make him anyway he wanted, and Grodd has never been more scary then he is now.

[Seraku]

Zoom is like crazy now, the solution to making old villains modern is to make them crazy like Joker. Gorrila Grodd is constantly eating people and burbling up blood, it's like he has really bad gingivitus. Johns has ruined these characters, but there's not much to do about it now.

Mirror Master, Captain Cold, Heat Wave and Weather Wizard aren't entirely ruined yet, but give Johns some time. He'll wreck them all.I don't think Johns has ever written Grodd as a crazy man eater that's been more Morrison and other writers

also obligatory you're insane remark because it's true. Johns made the Rogues good characters



You are out of your mind. If Johns had not taken the Rouges and actully given them some character you would not even see them these days. He basiclly saved almost all these character form becoming cannon fodder in some big event by making them so good. He created Zoom so he can make him anyway he wanted, and Grodd has never been more scary then he is now.

the Rogues WERE fodder for an event, they were all killed off in Underworld Unleashed since Waid thought they were horrible characters at the time

[fly on the wall]

I don't think Johns has ever written Grodd as a crazy man eater that's been more Morrison and other writers

also obligatory you're insane remark because it's true. Johns made the Rogues good characters


Johns had Grodd as bloody mouth man eater quite some time ago.

go to this link http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=368
And you'll see pictures of a bloody mouth Grodd from 2001.

Here's the print from that link, to see the pictures you'll have to go to the link:

COLOR PREVIEW: Flash #178 - Grodd unleashed!
by Jonah Weiland, Executive Producer
Email Author
(More from this Author)
Category: Comic Books
Print Article
Mon, September 10th, 2001 at 12:00AM PST
Text Size
Decrease Increase DC Comics has provided CBR with the following preview:


THE FLASH #178
Written by Geoff Johns; art by Scott Kolins and Doug Hazlewood; cover by Brian Bolland


In stores September 26. "Caged." Keystone City tries to keep Gorilla Grodd in a cage! But this is a very different Grodd than the one you're used to - a fierce fighting ape who's out to level the town! Looks like the Flash is going to have his hands full dealing with this monkey business…


FC, 32 pg. $2.25

I do not think that Grant Morrison had a man-eating Grodd this long ago and the text says "this is a very different Grodd than the one you're used to".

I think Johns is to blame for the man-eating Grodd, not Morrison.

[Phantom Druid]

Gorrila Grodd is constantly eating people and burbling up blood, it's like he has really bad gingivitus.

As he should be. I love Johns' Rogues. I think what Johns is doing with Grodd is perfectly suitable for the character and makes him much more menacing. A giant man eating ape that burbles blood is pretty ****ed up if you ask me. In the right way. Just how a rampaging ape should be. Vicious.

[Sean Walsh]

Cold knows that if they actually killed a Flash bad stuff would happen to them like having one of their members killed and rest being banished to a planet with monster on it along with the Joker.

That's just insane. Who would even publish all that?

[Mr. Nebula]

Get the Johns run on The Flash, specifically volume 2, titled Rogues I believe which features an amazing issue about Captain Cold that fits right into Rogues' Revenge #2. Zoom shows up in Vol 4 I believe, titled Blitz.

I wish DC would do a better job at keeping multi-trade runs of a book in print. The first two and last two books of Geoff John's runs are in print (or, at least, reprinted with the newer blue DC logo at the base of the spine) but the middle four books are pretty hard to come by. I've seen copies of Crossfire and Blitz go for between $50-100 each on ebay. o_O

[Sean Walsh]

I wish DC would do a better job at keeping multi-trade runs of a book in print. The first two and last two books of Geoff John's runs are in print (or, at least, reprinted with the newer blue DC logo at the base of the spine) but the middle four books are pretty hard to come by. I've seen copies of Crossfire and Blitz go for between $50-100 each on ebay. o_O

Meanwhile some of us, who also put up with ridiculous auctions for a long time, happen to find & buy them both in the same eBay lot for only $30 total... :wink: :tongue:

But agreed. You'd think, of the two, CROSSFIRE - basically a big Flash vs. Rogues fight (well, mostly the newer Rogues) - would've been reprinted for the current ROGUE'S REVENGE mini.

[The Cool Thatguy]

You are out of your mind. If Johns had not taken the Rouges and actully given them some character you would not even see them these days. He basiclly saved almost all these character form becoming cannon fodder in some big event by making them so good. He created Zoom so he can make him anyway he wanted, and Grodd has never been more scary then he is now.

Yeah, seriously. Johns gave all the Rogues motivations that don't rely on insanity, money or the desire for revenge. That puts them above 90% of the villains out there.

[Buried Alien]

It does kind of explain why, back in the Silver Age, the classic rogues were content to be bank and jewel robbers when they clearly had the means to be much more dangerous threats.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[celticguy]

That's just insane. Who would even publish all that?


Heck even if they did nobody would ever acknowledge it.

[JamesJesse]

I have been a Rogues Fan way LONG before Geoff Johns got his hands on them.

I always felt they had so much potential to be bad asses but no one gave them a chance. I had thought Mark Waid would give them a shot but outside of Trickster and Piper, he wrote the rest of them as losers as well (Before and after he killed them.)

But when Johns got to them, he really fleshed them out. And brought out their potential. He didn't make them crazy like the Joker as you claim, (save for Heatwave who has a disorder,) he made them blue collar and more hardened.

Zoom was always crazy, even his predecessor Reverse Flash was a but crazy. Grodd? He just reminded us that he is not just a monkey with brains but a Savage Primal Beast with the telepathic powers and intelligence that can rival Martian Manhunter and the like.


====

A bit of Rogues Gallery analysis pre and post Johns.

Captain Cold before Johns - Has-been with a freeze gun who tried his hand as a bounty hunter but failed, was viewed as a lesser Mr. Freeze, was a wimp who feared Golden Glider, and was defeated by Ice Maiden in a subway.

Captain Cold after Johns - grizzled veteran Rogue with a molecular level freeze gun which can strip even molecules of their kinetic energy, a loner who leads the Rogues, one of the most skilled villains around and respected by fellow villains, has a twisted code of honor and has the guts to tell the entire super villain community to stick it. Will kill when needed but knows to keep it in check.

===

Heatwave before Johns - wimp with a fire gun who keeps wanting to reform

Heatwave after Johns - pyromaniac who is exerting all effort not to set everything on fire with his arsenal of intense flame weapons.

===

Weather Wizard before Johns - guy who lucked into his powers and can hurl little storms at his enemies

Weather Wizard after Johns - intellectual who may or may not have killed his own brother to get his power, and has shown complete and ruthless power over the elements.

===

Mirror Master before Johns - his power was still evident but he had deteriorated into a cheap gun for hire. Morrisson handled him well but since then, was mere background fodder.

Mirror Master after Johns - a recovering addict who uses his weapons for real terror, and is practically a suspense flick in the flesh considering can appear in any reflection in the world. Now a major player in the villain community, even leading the Suicide Squad on a mission.

===

Meanwhile, Piper and Trickster were handled like wimps by the Countdown crew. Trickster, who faced down the devil himself practically wet his pants when faced by Deathstroke. Piper as well, who faced the entire army of Kobra, seemed unnaturally terrified.

===

Ruined!? Hah.
Only Geoff Johns knows how to treat these guys with respect and turn them into serious characters to be reckoned with.

[Hatut Zeraze]

so really a properly characterised Zoom would think he was coming along nicely.

The concept for Zoom, outside of that first story, has rarely been given more than lip service. He's supposed to be a character obsessed with making Wally and other heroes better heroes by forcing them to realize true tragedy. His "villainy" is supposed to be coming from the means by which he intends to introduce tragedy, something he justifies through his goal of making heroes better.

Johns created a pretty original motivation for a villain, but its a specific motivation that, if treated seriously, pinholes the character into certain types of stories. Teaming up with other villains, as he's done again and again since his first appearance is just something he wouldn't do were his original stated motivations taken seriously. He was created at a time that virtually every DC writer was having fangasmic nostalgia for the Legion of Doom. Every time we turned around there seemed to be another huge gathering of super-villains and writers couldn't resist including Zoom, even though he really shouldn't fit in with them.

This line has been crossed so much that the "hero-creator" motivation has really started to fade into the background. Johns is trying to revive it in the Rogue's Revenge story, but expect it to be ignored again whenever someone (even Johns) thinks it will be fun to use Zoom in a way that contradicts his original impetus.

[Phantom Druid]

So where is Abra Kadabra these days? I can't seem to recall. I notice they showed his counterpart in Rogues Revenge.

[The Cool Thatguy]

So where is Abra Kadabra these days? I can't seem to recall. I notice they showed his counterpart in Rogues Revenge.

He probably joined the Society off-panel. Libra made a reference to already having Grodd, Dr. Alchemist and Kadabra in his ranks.

[hitokiri_]

He probably joined the Society off-panel. Libra made a reference to already having Grodd, Dr. Alchemist and Kadabra in his ranks.

oh yeah, dr alchemy. i totally forgot that he existed