We All Know What An Anti-Hero Is...

[Buzz Dixon]

...that's a protagonist who does not behave as a traditional hero/ine behaves, in particularly towards what are normally considered heroic virtues.

But can there be an anti-villain?

Here's how Wikipedia describes a villain: "..an 'evil' character in a story, whether a historical narrative or, especially, a work of fiction. The villain usually is the antagonist, the character who tends to have a negative effect on other characters. A female villain is sometimes called a villainess (often to differentiate her from a male villain). Random House Unabridged Dictionary defines villain as 'a cruelly malicious person who is involved in or devoted to wickedness or crime; scoundrel; or a character in a play, novel, or the like, who constitutes an important evil agency in the plot.'"

What would an anti-villain look like? How would he/she function in a story? Are there any examples out there already?

[BnL]

I don't know if the term "anti-villain" really has any meaning. Villains are allowed to be sympathetic, just look at Batman's rogues gallery. But they're "villains," not "anti-villains." If anything, I guess an "anti-villain" would be a traditional force of good (or at least of lawfulness) that opposes an anti-hero. The detective trying to bring the anti-hero to justice. But even that doesn't seem like an appropriate label for such a character.

[Tobias March]

http://www.comiccavern.com/blogs/media/The-Monarch.jpg

I'm on a Venture Brothers kick at the moment....still I would see a villain that we as an audience sympathize with - enjoy and appreciate - as being an anti-villain.

[Tommy]

Well if anti-villains are people who do good deeds for selfish reasons.

A particularly apt example would be the first 12 issues of Thunderbolts.

[Kevinroc]

Here is how tvtropes describes an "anti villain."

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AntiVillain

If the Anti Hero is the Deconstruction of the Hero, then the Anti Villain is the villain's send up. At its most basic, the Anti Villain is a villain with heroic goals, personality traits, and even virtues. While even a Card Carrying Villain needs at least some good qualities in order to be effective, believable and (ironically enough) threatening as an antagonist the Anti Villain has far more than strictly necessary. They reach a kind of critical mass that makes them "gooder" than normal villains but not quite Heroes, blurring the line between hero and villain the same way an Anti Hero does.

Basically, it's the tendency to humanize a villain as opposed to the Anti Hero's tendency to darken the hero. Side by side it can become hard to tell them apart, but the villain can usually be distinguished either by having less screen time or by having a tell, like thinking Evil Tastes Good, and because they have "vision!" In extreme cases, they aren't evil at heart, they've just had it rough, are misguided or are just doing their job. The only reason some would even be considered evil at all is because they're the Designated Antagonist. Despite this humanizing characterization they are rarely less dangerous; heroes won't know what to expect when their enemy offers cookies and then attacks their reputation, without giving them an excuse to rationalize killing them.

Examples they used?

Mr. Freeze from Bruce Timm's Batman series, The Others on Lost, King Dedede from Nintendo's Kirby series, and for a comic book example we can use Chris Claremont's version of Magneto.

(Although King Dedede is probably the funniest example as he is a giant penguin with a hammer and has a surprisingly friendly relationship with Kirby.)

[Black Vespa]

Well if anti-villains are people who do good deeds for selfish reasons.

A particularly apt example would be the first 12 issues of Thunderbolts.

does Booster Gold count?

[Red Jack]

Quicksilver.

Namor.

Deadpool.

Trickster.

The Shade.

[section 8]

Yeah there are a few you could call "Anti Villian"
An Anti Villian would be someone who USED to be evil, but hasn't fully redeemed themselves as of yet, or stil has villian-ish tendancies. y'know someone who WANTS to maim people, but doesn't (i can relate to THAT)

[Black Vespa]

Quicksilver.

Namor.

Deadpool.

Trickster.

The Shade.

yeah, but for the most part...aren't those anti-heroes?

[Red Jack]

yeah, but for the most part...aren't those anti-heroes?

No.

The Shade is a villain except when at home in Opal. He has a strict code of ethics that allows for some very bad behavior but which he will never breach. He's an honorable opponent and ruthless at the same time. He behaves heroically on occasion but could never be mistaken for any kind of hero. He's an anti-villain.

Quicksilver, throughout his career, especially at the beginning and currently, is CLEARLY a villain but holds bonds of family above ALL OTHER CONCERNS. It makes him behave heroically for extended periods but the balance of his activities fall into the villain column IMO. I would be happy for Northstar to replace him as the MU's premiere speedster.

Namor swings back and forth between villain and hero, even co-starring for a time with Dr. Doom in SUPER VILLAIN TEAM UP. Nobody who attacks the surface world ( full scale invasions with monsters and everything) with such regularity can ever be considered a hero. He was willing to sit and watch the Hulk murder his way across the dirt portions of the planet because he felt that his vengeance was justified. No way he's a hero but he's too odd a sort of villain to be anything but the anti kind.

Deadpool is an assassin for hire. Villain, surely, but he doesn't behave as other villains do and often behaves nobly out of misguided affection for various women. But he's far too amorla and lethal to be considered a hero. Anti-villain.

Now that I think of it, the Trickster doesn't belong on the list. He's just a villain.

[a. non]

I think Grand Admiral Thrawn is an anti-villain. Sure, he was trying to rebuild the Empire and take down the New Republic, but he knew the Vong were poised to invade and believed the Imperial model was the most capable of dealing with it.

[tangentman]

Catwoman seems like an outstanding example of the "Anti-Villain to me.

Harmony Kendall and Lindsey McDonald of Angel seem to fall into this category, too.

[Tobias March]

Catwoman seems like an outstanding example of the "Anti-Villain to me.

Harmony Kendall and Lindsey McDonald of Angel seem to fall into this category, too.

Then Lindsey met his nemesis.

http://www.nationmaster.com/wikimir/images/upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/17/Lorn12.jpg/200px-Lorn12.jpg

Wait....I got that wrong somehow.

[section 8]

Deadpool might be more of an anti hero.

the punisher, an antivillian.

or is it the other way around?

[Crowley]

Michael Corleone and D'angelo Barksdale I think would be antivillains.

[section 8]

I guess my looking up to Coleone as a kid wasn't heathy

(at least it wasn't Tony Montana)

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I can't believe no one has ever picked Magneto yet. Not only does he believe that he is a hero for mutants , his actions have showed the means he will go to fufill those plans. From wanting Genosha as he threatened Earth by tilting it on its axis to wanting to nuke places for his cause.

Magneto is a complicated villain. And yes... no matter how fooolish Claremont tried that retcon in Genosha Excalibur....Mag's is a bad guy with issues.

[section 8]

Magneto is a good one, he sees himself as heroic, but then who sees themselves as a villian anyway?

[K-DoG7p7]

Catman and Catwoman..

[section 8]

I got an obvious one...Venom

[Black Atom]

I'd say guys like Venom and Magneto are either villain-villains or anti-heroes.

Anti-Hero -- protagonist who does good deeds for the wrong reasons.

Anti-Villains -- antagonist who does bad deeds for the right reasons?

If that's the idea, then I think of maybe Ra's al Ghul or the villains from HEROES who wanted to kill millions of people for some perceived "greater good" might qualify. Of maybe it'd be something like Tommy Lee Jones character in the The Fugitive.

[Red Jack]

I can't believe no one has ever picked Magneto yet. Not only does he believe that he is a hero for mutants , his actions have showed the means he will go to fufill those plans. From wanting Genosha as he threatened Earth by tilting it on its axis to wanting to nuke places for his cause.

Magneto is a complicated villain. And yes... no matter how fooolish Claremont tried that retcon in Genosha Excalibur....Mag's is a bad guy with issues.

I think of Magneto as a mutant Hitler. I don't see him as anything more than a homicidal megalomaniac with messianic delusions. He believes his "species" is superior to humanity and would kill, indeed has killed, thousands of people without a second of remorse.

He's a villain. Straight up.

[section 8]

To me an Anti villian would be someone that shares Arnolds view in this scene
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72KNpSvwS7w

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I think of Magneto as a mutant Hitler. I don't see him as anything more than a homicidal megalomaniac with messianic delusions. He believes his "species" is superior to humanity and would kill, indeed has killed, thousands of people without a second of remorse.

He's a villain. Straight up.

His past ties into Hitler and Nazi's . He watched his family die in the concentration camps and it marked him. What he does for Mutants he does for fear they will be marked like his family and him was then. Sure he's basically became the thing he rally against at times ..but to him he feels its alright. The ends will justify the means .

As we saw a scene in Singer's X-Men where Magneto I believe discusses with Charles that the humans will always fear and hate Mutants. That they'll make a leap to what Erik suffered as a child. So thats Magneto's drive... to make sure mutants never suffer what he did.

Its not right what he does....its just how his character is complicated and all.

[Red Jack]

His past ties into Hitler and Nazi's . He watched his family die in the concentration camps and it marked him. What he does for Mutants he does for fear they will be marked like his family and him was then. Sure he's basically became the thing he rally against at times ..but to him he feels its alright. The ends will justify the means .

As we saw a scene in Singer's X-Men where Magneto I believe discusses with Charles that the humans will always fear and hate Mutants. That they'll make a leap to what Erik suffered as a child. So thats Magneto's drive... to make sure mutants never suffer what he did.

Its not right what he does....its just how his character is complicated and all.

Magneto doesn't operate out of fear but of a sense of superiority. The "lesson" he learned in the camps (an increasingly difficult origin for him to have as we creep farther into the 21st century) is a perversion of the one he should have learned.

I don't see him doing horrible things for the right reasons. I see him doing horrible things for the wrong reasons i.e. racism.

[section 8]

just for fun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGq5H4P7rMg

[K-DoG7p7]

Anti-Hero -- protagonist who does good deeds for the wrong reasons.

Anti-Villains -- antagonist who does bad deeds for the right reasons?

you sure that's not the other way around..

Anti-Hero -- protagonist who does bad deeds for the right reasons

Anti-Villains -- antagonist who does good deeds for the wrong reasons.


This definition is more fitting with what we know.. like The Punisher who kills(bad) for a good reason
get it

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Magneto doesn't operate out of fear but of a sense of superiority. The "lesson" he learned in the camps (an increasingly difficult origin for him to have as we creep farther into the 21st century) is a perversion of the one he should have learned.

I don't see him doing horrible things for the right reasons. I see him doing horrible things for the wrong reasons i.e. racism.

I see it as less racism myself. Sure he preaches mutants are a superior race and it ties into the Hitler type aspect that sadly happened with him. In the becoming the thing he hates the most.

But as that set origin now (They have used the excuse his mutant abilities kept him young and even did a story in the mid 80's where he was de-aged....) it sorta fits Magneto's twisted villain who believs he's a hero character.

Its not right... but the effects at what he witnessed and experinced could have made him take this leap to mutants.

[Black Atom]

you sure that's not the other way around..

Anti-Hero -- protagonist who does bad deeds for the right reasons

Anti-Villains -- antagonist who does good deeds for the wrong reasons.


This definition is more fitting with what we know.. like The Punisher who kills(bad) for a good reason
get it

The Punisher kills bad guys, which is a good deed. It puts him at odds with superheroes who're content to merely beat the everloving shit out of bad guys, but ethical quibbling aside, it's a good deed. The problem is that he pursues this for the wrong reasons.

Han Solo is an anti-hero because he rescued the Princess (an undeniably good thing) but was motivated purely by the expectation of a reward (wrong reason).

[K-DoG7p7]

So your argument is that murder is a good deed..

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Magneto doesn't operate out of fear but of a sense of superiority. The "lesson" he learned in the camps (an increasingly difficult origin for him to have as we creep farther into the 21st century) is a perversion of the one he should have learned.

I don't see him doing horrible things for the right reasons. I see him doing horrible things for the wrong reasons i.e. racism.

I got to ask, because I agree with you...

How do you think current Cyclops (Post MC) is doing?

[Black Atom]

So your argument is that murder is a good deed..

I think you know what my argument is but you're trying to undermine it by being purposely obtuse.

The Punisher kills bad guys. Just like Wolverine, Jonah Hex and Dirty Harry.

[Red Jack]

I got to ask, because I agree with you...

How do you think current Cyclops (Post MC) is doing?

I don't recognize him. He used to be the Captain America of mutants. Then he got castrated to lift up Wolverine. Now he's, what/ I have no idea. Emma's sex toy?

I liked Whedon's use of him in the Breakworld thing but, no, I'm not happy with the current state of Cyclops.

[K-DoG7p7]

I think you know what my argument is but you're trying to undermine it by being purposely obtuse.

The Punisher kills bad guys. Just like Wolverine, Jonah Hex and Dirty Harry.

yes but murder is till a crime.. its still a bad deed..

[Pink Bat Maxine]

I don't know if there's such a thing as an anti-villian, but if there is....

http://www.stripovi.com/images/shade.jpg

....this guy would be it.

[BlairH]

Left-leaning liberals are a good example of the term: Full of good intentions, but having a fairly negative influence in the world. :tongue:

[Sabrinaset]

Yaaay BlairH is back!

I have no idea why I think so, but I'm getting the vague feeling Anti-Venom in Spider-man is going to be a good example of an Anti-Villain.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

I don't recognize him. He used to be the Captain America of mutants. Then he got castrated to lift up Wolverine. Now he's, what/ I have no idea. Emma's sex toy?

I liked Whedon's use of him in the Breakworld thing but, no, I'm not happy with the current state of Cyclops.

Understood, but I meant how he's handling the post-MC landscape.

ie: kicking out Xavier, X-Force, Young X-Men, etc. Management wise.

[Tommy]

The problem is that he pursues this for the wrong reasons.

He does it for the same reasons as Spider-Man, his family is dead. Spider-Man is just more motivated by guilt than he does.

[Red Jack]

Left-leaning liberals are a good example of the term: Full of good intentions, but having a fairly negative influence in the world. :tongue:

lol.

Yeah that whole trickle down economics thing was a real hoot, huh?

[Red Jack]

Understood, but I meant how he's handling the post-MC landscape.

ie: kicking out Xavier, X-Force, Young X-Men, etc. Management wise.

yeah, Dark, Ruthless Scott is crap, IMO.

[Tommy]

yeah, Dark, Ruthless Scott is crap, IMO.

Two decades ago his idea to prepare his X-men for an impossible battle (after already loosing one battle badly) was to beat the crap out of them for awhile.

He was always dark and ruthless. And complicated and conflicted, repressed and guilt ridden, and had sex with three different versions of the same woman. He was never the Captain America of mutants.

[Black Atom]

yes but murder is till a crime.. its still a bad deed..

Well, euthanasia's a crime. Vigilantism, in general, is a crime. Still, for the purpose of this particular argument, killing bad guys is a "good" deed, rather than a bad one.

He does it for the same reasons as Spider-Man, his family is dead. Spider-Man is just more motivated by guilt than he does.

Spider-Man's motivation is coming from an essentially good place though. His guilt springs from his over-inflated sense of responsibility. Punisher's mission is really one of revenge. It accomplishes good, but it's mostly self-satisfying.

[Red Jack]

Two decades ago his idea to prepare his X-men for an impossible battle (after already loosing one battle badly) was to beat the crap out of them for awhile.

He was always dark and ruthless. And complicated and conflicted, repressed and guilt ridden, and had sex with three different versions of the same woman. He was never the Captain America of mutants.

Well. That's you. IMO, Cyke used to run a tight ship and he certainly wanted his crew to respect the Danger Room and who they might come up against but, as a tactician he was second to none. He was a quiet, initially painfully shy, young man who lived in fear of killing someone with his uncontrolled optic blasts. Sure he was wound more tightly in some ways than most but, on the other hand, he was the purest deepest believer in Xavier's dream and was always portrayed so.

When the all-new, all different X-Men formed he was worried, because they were all (except Colossus) adults, well versed in the use of their powers and operating as individuals rather than as part of a team, that they might die in the field, something he couldn't stomach. When he lost Thunderbird (I can still bring him back) he took it as a personal failure as much as grieving over the loss of of a person in his crew.

Cyke was written inconsistently over the decades, especially during the ascent of Wolverine and the waning of Claremont's ability to keep a story straight and that has led him to the twisted sorry state he currently occupies. The X movies have further marginalized him and distorted his character.

In the modern climate, "serious and committed" seems to translate into "ruthless bastard," something Scott Summers absolutely never was.

He was Xavier's first, best, most-committed soldier and therefore, IMO, the Captain America of mutantkind.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Well. That's you. IMO, Cyke used to run a tight ship and he certainly wanted his crew to respect the Danger Room and who they might come up against but, as a tactician he was second to none. He was a quiet, initially painfully shy, young man who lived in fear of killing someone with his uncontrolled optic blasts. Sure he was wound more tightly in some ways than most but, on the other hand, he was the purest deepest believer in Xavier's dream and was always portrayed so.

When the all-new, all different X-Men formed he was worried, because they were all (except Colossus) adults, well versed in the use of their powers and operating as individuals rather than as part of a team, that they might die in the field, something he couldn't stomach. When he lost Thunderbird (I can still bring him back) he took it as a personal failure as much as grieving over the loss of of a person in his crew.

Cyke was written inconsistently over the decades, especially during the ascent of Wolverine and the waning of Claremont's ability to keep a story straight and that has led him to the twisted sorry state he currently occupies. The X movies have further marginalized him and distorted his character.

In the modern climate, "serious and committed" seems to translate into "ruthless bastard," something Scott Summers absolutely never was.

He was Xavier's first, best, most-committed soldier and therefore, IMO, the Captain America of mutantkind.

He might still be, since Captain America is now more ruthless... (I still miss Steve)

I hate this current Marvel trend...

[section 8]

Left-leaning liberals are a good example of the term: Full of good intentions, but having a fairly negative influence in the world. :tongue:

Good point, same can be said for the far right.

Lean too far in ANY direction, and you are bound to fall

[BlairH]

Good point, same can be said for the far right.

Lean too far in ANY direction, and you are bound to fall

Indeed.

In fact, before anybody chimes in with a "Blair is just a right-wing hatemonger" comment. I'll say that, in my mind, a stereotypical far-right, authoritarian regime, fits the role of "villian" more than "anti-villian", which I deem to be more suited to describing stereotypical, weak-at-the-knees leftist liberals.

Neville Chamberlain, to my mind at least, is the perfect example of an anti-villian. Somebody who works for peace, but with disastrous results, both morally, and in actuality.

[Alex L]

...that's a protagonist who does not behave as a traditional hero/ine behaves, in particularly towards what are normally considered heroic virtues.

But can there be an anti-villain?

Here's how Wikipedia describes a villain: "..an 'evil' character in a story, whether a historical narrative or, especially, a work of fiction. The villain usually is the antagonist, the character who tends to have a negative effect on other characters. A female villain is sometimes called a villainess (often to differentiate her from a male villain). Random House Unabridged Dictionary defines villain as 'a cruelly malicious person who is involved in or devoted to wickedness or crime; scoundrel; or a character in a play, novel, or the like, who constitutes an important evil agency in the plot.'"

What would an anti-villain look like? How would he/she function in a story? Are there any examples out there already?

As an example of an inherent villain, who uses heroic methods? (the opposite of an anti-hero)

Most "businessman" type villains, who play by the rules of society to get what they want.

As an example of someone who believes himself to be heroic, but is not?

Maybe Reedemer from Spawn -- an agent from Heaven who tries to hunt down and kill the protagonist for no other reason than because Spawn is from Hell.

[PatrickG]

...that's a protagonist who does not behave as a traditional hero/ine behaves, in particularly towards what are normally considered heroic virtues.

But can there be an anti-villain?

Here's how Wikipedia describes a villain: "..an 'evil' character in a story, whether a historical narrative or, especially, a work of fiction. The villain usually is the antagonist, the character who tends to have a negative effect on other characters. A female villain is sometimes called a villainess (often to differentiate her from a male villain). Random House Unabridged Dictionary defines villain as 'a cruelly malicious person who is involved in or devoted to wickedness or crime; scoundrel; or a character in a play, novel, or the like, who constitutes an important evil agency in the plot.'"

What would an anti-villain look like? How would he/she function in a story? Are there any examples out there already?

I'd classify an anti-villain as a neutered villain with a charismatic appeal who is denied the role of antagonist.

Someone who behaves like a villain yet doesn't achieve true antagonist status but who is, perhaps, the antagonist's antagonist or someone who is set up as an antagonistic figure only to be overshadowed by a larger antagonist such as fate or nature.

Starscream would be an anti-villain. Cobra Commander after the introduction of Serpentor, Destro before. Dr. Smith from Lost in Space borders between anti-hero and anti-villain. Spike from Buffy when he had the chip placed in his head. Captain Hammer from Dr. Horrible. (He seeks to be the antagonist but is denied that role largely.) Maybe Sandman from the Spider-man comics. Deadpool, frequently.

I'd say the anti-villain has a comedic component, often working well in a story where the boundaries of the drama are played with. In melodrama, the anti-villain is impotent or a buffoon or somehow flawed from functioning as a proper antagonist (ie. secretly noble and virtuous). In a more straight setting, I'd imagine that an anti-villain is a kind of maverick who moves the plot forward but whose motivations we're less privvy to than the protagonist's. They could even be something of a protagonist who we're simply not led to feel for. Like Ozymandias from Watchmen.

Hamlet is not an anti-hero... But I could see him as an anti-villain if the story happened from Claudius' perspective and we weren't made privvy to Hamlet's full inner depth or his plans, for instance. So then the story becomes one of a king driven by his lust who we're made to empathize with, driven forward by the machinations of his nutty nephew who seems to have his own story going on... but in the end, Claudius' antagonist is not Hamlet but himself, making Hamlet's dance through Claudius' story hypnotic but superfluous.

[PatrickG]

Mr. Freeze from Bruce Timm's Batman series, The Others on Lost, King Dedede from Nintendo's Kirby series, and for a comic book example we can use Chris Claremont's version of Magneto.


Chris Claremont's Magneto wasn't even an anti-hero, much less an anti-villain. He's the straight up messiah, spotless and full of totally justified righteous fury, noble and without defect.

I REALLY prefer Magneto as a Jewish concentration camp survivor who grew up to be a Nazi-ish racial supremacist fascist. THAT is where the meat is with that character, IMHO.

[Grazzt]

Neville Chamberlain, to my mind at least, is the perfect example of an anti-villian. Somebody who works for peace, but with disastrous results, both morally, and in actuality.

I'd actually consider Chamberlain an out-and-out villain, but that's mostly because I subscribe to the school of thought that he let Hitler run rampant as long as he did because he wanted a buffer state against the Soviets.

[PatrickG]

Didn't Churchill later say that we should have sided with the Nazis against the Soviets instead of vice versa?

[Tommy]

Well. That's you.

No that's the comics. Cyclops is the kind of guy who used to threaten people to get them to join the X-men.
IMO, Cyke used to run a tight ship and he certainly wanted his crew to respect the Danger Room and who they might come up against but, as a tactician he was second to none. He was a quiet, initially painfully shy, young man who lived in fear of killing someone with his uncontrolled optic blasts. Sure he was wound more tightly in some ways than most but, on the other hand, he was the purest deepest believer in Xavier's dream and was always portrayed so.
None of which makes him any less ruthless or dark.

When the all-new, all different X-Men formed he was worried, because they were all (except Colossus) adults, well versed in the use of their powers and operating as individuals rather than as part of a team, that they might die in the field, something he couldn't stomach. When he lost Thunderbird (I can still bring him back) he took it as a personal failure as much as grieving over the loss of of a person in his crew.
None of which makes him any less ruthless or dark.

Cyke was written inconsistently over the decades, especially during the ascent of Wolverine and the waning of Claremont's ability to keep a story straight and that has led him to the twisted sorry state he currently occupies. The X movies have further marginalized him and distorted his character.

In the modern climate, "serious and committed" seems to translate into "ruthless bastard," something Scott Summers absolutely never was.

He was Xavier's first, best, most-committed soldier and therefore, IMO, the Captain America of mutantkind.
It was1979 when he decided that the best way for the X-men to get over the last battle with Proteus and get ready for the next battle was to drive them into a homicidal rage by beating them up. (Even Storm comments on the fact that she was as angry as Wolverine about it). Him being ruthless is not something added to the character, it was something he always was.

Cyclops was always dark, and deeply conflicted about his role in the X-men, and to me always came off as a man in desperate need of help (first from Xavier, then Jean, then [briefly] Psylocke, until Emma actually did something.)

[Red Jack]

No that's the comics. Cyclops is the kind of guy who used to threaten people to get them to join the X-men.

That's crap. Never happened. Cyke THREATENED people, forcing them to join? Never. who, like Dazzler? Like Gambit? Like Anyone ever?

It was1979 when he decided that the best way for the X-men to get over the last battle with Proteus and get ready for the next battle was to drive them into a homicidal rage by beating them up. (Even Storm comments on the fact that she was as angry as Wolverine about it).

Oh, bullshit. They were all freaked out by Proteus's ability to warp reality, especially Wolverine, and he did the equivalent of slapping them out of shock in order to get their heads back in the game. And all their "rage" was focused on HIM, not on each other. You have misread or misinterpreted his activities. He was a good field leader, making sure his people didn't fold up in the middle of the fight.

Him being ruthless is not something added to the character, it was something he always was.

That's simply not the facts. He often had to threaten Wolverine into retreating when psycho claw boy wanted to keep fighting to the death.

Cyclops was always dark, and deeply conflicted about his role in the X-men,

Bullshit. He was a true believer and portrayed as shy and sad about his family life. He stayed with the team, his "family" even when the original members , including Jean, grew up and went off to live their lives. He quit the team only after watching the woman he loved commit suicide rather than destroy the world.

He "hooked up" with a woman who looked NOTHING like Jean, had a pretty good civilian life with her before events outside his control drew him back into the world of battling mutants.

and to me always came off as a man in desperate need of help (first from Xavier, then Jean, then [briefly] Psylocke, until Emma actually did something.)

Then you need a refresher course. That's simply not how the character was portrayed for the first several decades of his existence.

It was only after he returned to the team that his role and character began to be marginalized in favor of Wolverine and Storm.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Han Solo is an anti-hero because he rescued the Princess (an undeniably good thing) but was motivated purely by the expectation of a reward (wrong reason).

I disagree here. Solo always had that outward demeaner of not giving a shit except for himself. But inside him was someone who wanted to do the right thing. The everyman character who sure ...money was cool. But inside as everyone saw had this heroic side that he tried to hide to not appear weak.

I even say that the Star Wars prequels suffered without a Han Solo type character who wasn't some superhuman or alien. He was a normal guy who damn it ...loved his princess and was cocky as hell. :tongue:

[section 8]

I disagree here. Solo always had that outward demeaner of not giving a shit except for himself. But inside him was someone who wanted to do the right thing. The everyman character who sure ...money was cool. But inside as everyone saw had this heroic side that he tried to hide to not appear weak.

I even say that the Star Wars prequels suffered without a Han Solo type character who wasn't some superhuman or alien. He was a normal guy who damn it ...loved his princess and was cocky as hell. :tongue:

Coldn't agree more. Solo was the most identifiable charactor.
Never mind "i am your father" or "may the force be with you"
the greatest line in Star Wars was Hans Solo's "Better her than me"

[shades of eternity]

inspector lune for most of the monster anime could be considered an anti-villian.

he basically stalked the main hero in a way that would be descibed as terminatorlike because he truely believed the main hero was responsible for being a mass murderer.

he was a damn hero, but wrong in this case, but too stubborn to stop until he basically lost everything, then he became a hero and rebuilt his life from the ashes of his own defeat.
*****************************************

hell zuko before 3rd season could be considered one as well.

[Black Atom]

I disagree here. Solo always had that outward demeaner of not giving a shit except for himself. But inside him was someone who wanted to do the right thing. The everyman character who sure ...money was cool. But inside as everyone saw had this heroic side that he tried to hide to not appear weak.


It certainly didn't look like Han was going to lift a finger to help Leia until Luke mentioned the reward. How much of that was posturing I guess we don't know, but he was still pretty clearly conflicted right up until the end of the movie (at which point he's realized as a hero-hero) so I feel comfortable calling him an anti-hero at the point we first meet him.

I even say that the Star Wars prequels suffered without a Han Solo type character who wasn't some superhuman or alien. He was a normal guy who damn it ...loved his princess and was cocky as hell.

You're right about the Prequels. And really, Anakin should've been the "everyman" character. And he sorta was in Episode I (okay "everykid") but it falls apart there.

[section 8]

I could go along with Solo as an "antihero"
Buit seriously at that point he had nothing invested why WOULD he put his ass on the line for leia? from what i remember he had his own problems.

*idea for new Sig*

[Spiffy]

Even if Solo was made to seem like an anti-hero in the first movie (err... Episode IV), his character was flipped in the beginning of The Empire Strikes Back, when he goes outside after Luke.

[livin_target]

Even if Solo was made to seem like an anti-hero in the first movie (err... Episode IV), his character was flipped in the beginning of The Empire Strikes Back, when he goes outside after Luke.

Yeah, by the end of the trilogy he was definately a bonafied hero.

As for anti-villians I think the operative from serenity is a good example of one (doing horribly evil things for a greater good that he truly believes in).

[Black Atom]

I could go along with Solo as an "antihero"
Buit seriously at that point he had nothing invested why WOULD he put his ass on the line for leia? from what i remember he had his own problems.

*idea for new Sig*

Well, that's kinda the idea. A hero would do it simply because it's the right thing to do.

[section 8]

i guess you are right, i just don't think it was an unreasonably selfish attitude.

He later became a hero type, but were it not for his troubles with jabba, i doubt he would have even looked in Skywalker/Obi won's direction.

[J. Morgan (Bat) Neal]

Even if Solo was made to seem like an anti-hero in the first movie (err... Episode IV), his character was flipped in the beginning of The Empire Strikes Back, when he goes outside after Luke.

Not necessarily. By that time Luke was his friend so he still had a selfish motivation. He didn't know Leia from Adam in Episode III so he needed to be coerced. Because I have no trouble believing that Han would have rescued Chewie if he were in trouble. Grousing about it the whole time no doubt.

[LewisH]

Ambush Bug.

[cedardryad]

Catwoman, Catman, to me Ra's Al Ghul, Dr. Horrible (not a comic book character, but I'm waiting for it).

[scout1279]

Catwoman, Catman, to me Ra's Al Ghul, Dr. Horrible (not a comic book character, but I'm waiting for it).

Wouldn't Captain Hammer be the anti-villain? Technically, he's the hero, but he's also the antagonist of the story. (And, after reading the MySpace comic, I am totally waiting for the Captain Hammer ongoing. I don't think I will ever tire of his fascist douchebaggery.)

[Zeb Oswalt]

Cat Man kind of quilifies as an anti villan.