Superman Beyond 3D Discussion

[TimothyCallahan]

I know there's already a thread on the DC section for "Superman Beyond," but I have a feeling that will soon devolve (if it hasn't already) into a "this makes no sense/Morrison is on drugs/this is awesome" kind of dialectic and I'd like to actually discuss the content of the comic instead. The content and the style.

First of all, I absolutely hate the 3-D (does anyone actually like it?), but I like the use of Superman as a Platonic ideal out of which all other Supermen--and Superhumans--were formed.

What do you like or dislike about the comic?

(And, please, no "it makes no sense" comments. Be more specific than that, and ask questions about what you don't understand.)

Merryman is also awesome.

[TimothyCallahan]

My review of "Superman Beyond" #1 is now live at CBR:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=user_review&id=326

[deantrippe]

First of all, I absolutely hate the 3-D (does anyone actually like it?), but I like the use of Superman as a Platonic ideal out of which all other Supermen--and Superhumans--were formed.
I didn't mind the 3-D sections, really. I think they could've been colored better (I say this about almost every comic I read). But I had fun breaking out the glasses and having my wife laugh at me whenever I paused to look up and talk to her while I was reading.

The Superman Platonic form stuff was stellar. Story infection. The one book. Evil wins. I imagine there will be more folks confused by this book than Batman RIP, but I just don't care. The New Gods of Comics have sent us the awesome, and I shall rejoice. My favorite stuff was in the first few pages, though, with Clark keeping Lois alive and "Secretly Superman" and purple ray talk.

Captain Adam was very cool.

[TimothyCallahan]

My problem was that I was physically incapable of reading the balloons with the 3-D glasses on, so I had to just look at the pictures, take off the glasses, read the words on the page, put them back on...etc. Eventually, I just ditched the glasses. Then I went back and looked at just the pictures with the glasses, and I wasn't that impressed with the effect, anyway.

Supposedly the Captain Atom from Earth-4 appeared in "Countdown: Arena," but I didn't read that, and I suspect he was portrayed differently, being a "Countdown" book and all. Anyone know for sure?

Speaking of coloring, and getting off topic on my own thread: Dean, did you happen to see the Iron Fist reprint that came out last week--with the Iron Fist origin in it? The new coloring on that was hid-e-ous!

[Cayman]

There was less 3-D than I expected. The effects were neat-looking enough but I honestly would've been just as happy to have a non 3-D book for $3.99.

The story itself was pretty awesome, reminding me of some of Morrison's great JLA stories.

[TimothyCallahan]

I really liked seeing Superman in Limbo. Because there's a vast difference between seeing Animal Man, so close to Limbo himself, hesitantly step up to Merryman and seeing Superman, the ultimate comic book icon (the original being upon whom all others are based), stride through Limbo with a compassion for the lost and lonely.

[deantrippe]

My problem was that I was physically incapable of reading the balloons with the 3-D glasses on, so I had to just look at the pictures, take off the glasses, read the words on the page, put them back on...etc. Eventually, I just ditched the glasses. Then I went back and looked at just the pictures with the glasses, and I wasn't that impressed with the effect, anyway.
That's weird! The word balloons look even clearer to me! Maybe I'm just wired for 4-D vision. ;)


Speaking of coloring, and getting off topic on my own thread: Dean, did you happen to see the Iron Fist reprint that came out last week--with the Iron Fist origin in it? The new coloring on that was hid-e-ous!
Haven't seen it yet. I'll let you know.

[TimothyCallahan]

I have amblyopia (a.k.a. "lazy eye") and I couldn't ever see those stereograms or use 3-D glasses until about 10 years ago, when I started wearing contact lenses and strengthening my weaker eye (until then, I wore glasses, and because one eye was nearsighted and one eye was drastically farsighted, the prescription had to be less than it should have been or I would have seen double. Contacts can be full prescription).

I can see 3-D effects no problem now, but I'm sure I don't get the same effect as someone with perfect vision. Or Dean, whose 4-D vision probably let him see the effect without even wearing the glasses!

So the indistinct word balloons were probably a side-effect of my own optical problems, but that didn't make it any less annoying.

[Paul McEnery]

I have amblyopia (a.k.a. "lazy eye") and I couldn't ever see those stereograms or use 3-D glasses until about 10 years ago, when I started wearing contact lenses and strengthening my weaker eye (until then, I wore glasses, and because one eye was nearsighted and one eye was drastically farsighted, the prescription had to be less than it should have been or I would have seen double. Contacts can be full prescription).

I can see 3-D effects no problem now, but I'm sure I don't get the same effect as someone with perfect vision. Or Dean, whose 4-D vision probably let him see the effect without even wearing the glasses!

So the indistinct word balloons were probably a side-effect of my own optical problems, but that didn't make it any less annoying.

I have similar problems, but even so, it seemed to me that the second and third page was a mess on that front.

Then again, it was easy enough to work with the idea of what was being communicated by the 3-D effect.

I'm just sorry they weren't all hecka cheesy on the front cover about it. Too tasteful by half!

[TimothyCallahan]

I do think Superman Beyond was hurt by being split into two. It was originally just going to be a long one-shot, right?

If this thing hit as a single story, I think it would have blown people away instead of just baffled them. But who knows.

[TimothyCallahan]

Chad Nevett and I discussed "Superman Beyond" #1 on this week's Sequart Splash Page:

http://www.sequart.org/columns/?column=2242

Check it out, then come back here and discuss!

[deantrippe]

Great discussion! Here are my thoughts, typed during pauses while reading:

I was very pleased with the inclusion of Captain Adam, I just wish we could've had Doc Manhattan outright. Morrison's pulling in his picks of the major re-interpretations of that iconic Superman form, which for comics nerds should definitely include Manhattan. I'd have liked to have seen some more of those guys, to be honest. Ultraman makes the least sense for inclusion in the meta-sense, but the most sense for inclusion in the DCU continuity. Funny.

Yes, the situation around Lois during Final Crisis smacks of the 2000 Superman pitch, the bits I read of which, were INCREDIBLE. I'm not sure whether Morrison can/should reset the Lois/Clark dynamic, but I'm sure he'll do a better job than Marvel did. (Probably with the same converse relationship of quality between DC's horribly told resurrection of Jason Todd and Marvel's excellent one for Bucky Barnes.)

I dunno, I think as the first female superhero and as a compliment to ideas present in both Batman and Superman, Wonder Woman deserves her place in the Trinity. Just because the comickers haven't gotten it right yet (really, consider their limitations as part of the DC boys' club) doesn't mean a truly excellent Trinity concept can't be done well.

Have you thought at all about the running theme of villains in the Morrison/Johns DCU right now? Mandrakk, the Black Glove, the Black Hand, Darkseid...what is going down? Your Mandrakk/mandrake notes are excellent.

[TimothyCallahan]

If you haven't seen the entire Superman 2000 pitch, Chad and I ended up excerpting the whole thing, in chunks (but it's all there) on our blogs. Chad posted a table of contents with links to everything:

http://graphicontent.blogspot.com/search/label/superman%202000%20pitch

Yeah, I think it's possible to make Wonder Woman into something like the third part of the trinity, if only because she's been around so long and she has a lot of cultural recognition, but she has always lacked a clear identity.

I taught a workshop at the Joe Staton exhibit we had in our town, and the topic of my workshop was "Creating your own Superheroes" and then I had them make villainous counterparts as well, and one of the things that came up was how the villains were always the opposite of the heroes--which is not new information for comic book fans: Batman, the guy of intellect and logic has the insane, chaotic Joker; Superman, the selfless strong man has the selfish brain of Luthor, and Spider-Man, the uncertain young man fights a bunch of confident elderly dudes.

Wonder Woman? Doesn't have that clear antithesis. Dr. Psycho, maybe, but he hasn't entered the cultural landscape. And I think that's because Wonder Woman has still not been fully realized as a character, even after nearly 70 years.

[TimothyCallahan]

I think I need to develop this whole thesis/antithesis of the superhero/villain thing into an entire column, actually. The more I think about it, the more I see deep-rooted reasons why superhero comics work the way the do.

[deantrippe]

Yeah, I think it's possible to make Wonder Woman into something like the third part of the trinity, if only because she's been around so long and she has a lot of cultural recognition, but she has always lacked a clear identity.
I think this has more to do with the cultural limitations on the majority of WW writers/artists, since the character is supposed to represent the heroic female, a concept apparently foreign to many comics creators. Similarly, I think the concept of the DCU Amazons is as difficult for the average writer to get a grip on as Marvel's Wakanda. I think this stems mainly from Westerners' inability to imagine a nation of people more advanced than them.


I taught a workshop at the Joe Staton exhibit we had in our town, and the topic of my workshop was "Creating your own Superheroes" and then I had them make villainous counterparts as well, and one of the things that came up was how the villains were always the opposite of the heroes--which is not new information for comic book fans: Batman, the guy of intellect and logic has the insane, chaotic Joker; Superman, the selfless strong man has the selfish brain of Luthor, and Spider-Man, the uncertain young man fights a bunch of confident elderly dudes.

Wonder Woman? Doesn't have that clear antithesis. Dr. Psycho, maybe, but he hasn't entered the cultural landscape. And I think that's because Wonder Woman has still not been fully realized as a character, even after nearly 70 years.
Absolutely true, but of course, those villainous antitheses only developed through decades of creators contributing to those characters' mythos in spinoffs, other media, revamps, and so on, with the best ideas clumping together and getting stronger. WW is almost better outside of her stories as a symbol for the heroic female, adopted by feminism and female fans (who may or may not read comics).

I think she belongs in the Trinity, but she really does need more creators putting the time in to keep finding out what makes her and her villains work.

[Paul McEnery]

If you haven't seen the entire Superman 2000 pitch, Chad and I ended up excerpting the whole thing, in chunks (but it's all there) on our blogs. Chad posted a table of contents with links to everything:

http://graphicontent.blogspot.com/search/label/superman%202000%20pitch

Yeah, I think it's possible to make Wonder Woman into something like the third part of the trinity, if only because she's been around so long and she has a lot of cultural recognition, but she has always lacked a clear identity.

I taught a workshop at the Joe Staton exhibit we had in our town, and the topic of my workshop was "Creating your own Superheroes" and then I had them make villainous counterparts as well, and one of the things that came up was how the villains were always the opposite of the heroes--which is not new information for comic book fans: Batman, the guy of intellect and logic has the insane, chaotic Joker; Superman, the selfless strong man has the selfish brain of Luthor, and Spider-Man, the uncertain young man fights a bunch of confident elderly dudes.

Wonder Woman? Doesn't have that clear antithesis. Dr. Psycho, maybe, but he hasn't entered the cultural landscape. And I think that's because Wonder Woman has still not been fully realized as a character, even after nearly 70 years.

Two words: Egg Fu.

Actually, the real reason is that Diana doesn't have an antithesis, because she's not actually a binary thinking type of hero. If anything, her antithesis is actually Steve Trevor.

[TimothyCallahan]

Since she's lacked a single great nemesis for her whole career, is it some kind of metafictional commentary that she's now engaged to Nemesis in the Simone comic?

Also, just to be clear, I really like Wonder Woman, and she's my daughter's favorite character ever. But one look at "The Greatest Wonder Woman Stories Ever Told" and you'll immediately see the lack of great stories told about her.

[Grico]

I thought the issues was interesting, although being out of practice with 3-D kind of made my eyes hurt and made it a bit hard to follow. I read it without my real glasses, the first attempt in awhile, even though my glasses are only really needed for distance, so that probably didn't help either. I was wondering how people felt about the portrayal of the Limbo people. I thought Merryman and crew didn't really add much at all to the plot, mostly just adding plot exposition (there is a book in there!) and warnings that would obviously go unheeded (but don't go in there!). I guess a half-crazy and distraught Animalman can get a bit more out of the limbo guys since the line between them isn't really that solid. I think the story is a good one for Superman to have to exist in with its multiple realities and general confusion. Its a more unique place for Superman to be and have to struggle with. Its a quite Tuesday nite for Morrison era Animalman.