The versions of the Legion of Super-Heroes

[Pil]

When they first started talking about Legion of 3 Worlds I read somewhere that there had only been 2 reboots and thus only 3 versions of the legion (not counting the clones). One thing bothered me about this. Shouldn't there be 4 versions?

After the the first Crisis, they got rid of Mon-El and created Valor in the rewriting of history in #5 and 6 from 1989 or 90. When I read Legion of 3 Worlds I got the distinct impression that this was the Legion from before this reboot (especially from who they pulled out of the Phantom Zone).

Did they get the continuity back on the old track from before the soft reboot, after I stopped buying the series at #26, or did they just "forget" this continuity like so many other things from the 90s?

[Mat001]

The Legion from 1989 through 1994 were merged with younger versions of the Pre-Crisis versions that were based on the Valor era. The end result was the "Zero Hour" reboot. Thanks to "Infinite Crisis", the Legion from 1958 through 1987 have been not only restored, but they diverge from the other version. Namely they're still wearing their costumes as adults, rather than civilian clothing.

[Matthew E]

When they first started talking about Legion of 3 Worlds I read somewhere that there had only been 2 reboots and thus only 3 versions of the legion (not counting the clones). One thing bothered me about this. Shouldn't there be 4 versions?

After the the first Crisis, they got rid of Mon-El and created Valor in the rewriting of history in #5 and 6 from 1989 or 90. When I read Legion of 3 Worlds I got the distinct impression that this was the Legion from before this reboot (especially from who they pulled out of the Phantom Zone).

Did they get the continuity back on the old track from before the soft reboot, after I stopped buying the series at #26, or did they just "forget" this continuity like so many other things from the 90s?

That's not exactly what happened.

Original Legion of Super-Heroes continuity runs from 1958 up to Crisis on Infinite Earths in '85-'86, unambiguously. After that we run into some complications.

CoIE coincided with the Legion title at around issue #18. In issue #37-38 we had the Death of Superboy/Pocket Universe story, that retroactively implied that Legion continuity hadn't been quite the same since the Crisis. Many people believe that CoIE was effectively a reboot. I don't, since there was no interruption in the storytelling, and the intent was clearly to preserve as much of Legion continuity as possible.

Then there's the thing you mention, where Valor is substituted in for Mon-El. That's a more drastic change, and it's accompanied by a change of tone and style for Legion comics around the same time, and a lot of people consider that a reboot too. I don't, because, again, there was no interruption in the storytelling (at issues #4 and 5, anyway), and the intent was clearly to preserve as much of Legion continuity as possible.

So when people say that there have been three Legion versions, they're counting everything from 1958 up to Zero Hour in 1994 as all one continuity, although there's more to it if you look closely enough.

Then the second version is the reboot version from 1994 up to 2004, and the third is the threeboot version from 2004 up to now.

The Legion currently appearing in Final Crisis: Legion of 3 Worlds is a lot like the original Legion if their history had taken some different turns around the time of CoIE. For most purposes they can be assumed to be the original Legion.

I hope that helps.

[Pil]

Thanks, yes that helps me quite a lot.

I agree that the pocket universe/death of Superboy was not a reboot. I just consider this a retcon.

Normally I'd consider the rewriting of history in #5 and 6 in the 1989 series a soft reboot like Spiderman: One More Day, the Superboy Punch, or Captain Atom: Armageddon. The story and continuity continues, although some of the details have changed. This particular instance I'm not so sure about.

[Lemurion]

I, and many other readers, feel the Legion jumped the Shark with the Five-Year-Gap. The Action Legion carries forward from just before the 5YG and then we have the two real reboots.

I'm really hoping the classic-style Action Legion sticks around.

[Matthew E]

The Action Legion carries forward from just before the 5YG and then we have the two real reboots.

I'm really hoping the classic-style Action Legion sticks around.

Has to be from further back than that, because there's no way that the 'death of Superboy' stuff, or its consequences, is in continuity for the Action Legion.

I'm hoping (and I think there's a good chance of it) that all three Legions will stick around as one big Legion.

I, and many other readers, feel the Legion jumped the Shark with the Five-Year-Gap.

Yes. It's my favourite, though, because of how powerful the stories were. They could also be appalling, heartbreaking, muddy or maddening, but powerful. Nobody else has been able to do as well since, although Abnett and Lanning took a pretty good run at it.

[Mat001]

Has to be from further back than that, because there's no way that the 'death of Superboy' stuff, or its consequences, is in continuity for the Action Legion.

In Action #864, Superman tells Batman that he last saw the Legion that he knew right after the first Crisis. Which would be the debut of the Pocket Universe Superboy. They know him, but not how his life was so different and he didn't really know them at all. So that is the cut off point of Johns.

[Matthew E]

I don't get what you mean.

For this Superman, there was no pocket-universe-Superboy. That whole mess of continuity was washed away when the future switched to the Glorithverse (although it seems that the pocket universe itself remained; not sure what that implies).

Whatever meeting this Superman had with the Legion after the (post-Infinite-Crisis version of the) first Crisis had, by definition, nothing to do with a pocket-universe Superboy.

I suspect Johns's cutoff point was a little before Crisis, because, in original LSH continuity, Lightning Lad, Saturn Girl and Cosmic Boy retired from the Legion just before Crisis, and I suspect that didn't happen in Johns's Legion. That's just speculation, though.

[Pil]

I suspect Johns's cutoff point was a little before Crisis, because, in original LSH continuity, Lightning Lad, Saturn Girl and Cosmic Boy retired from the Legion just before Crisis, and I suspect that didn't happen in Johns's Legion. That's just speculation, though.
Also Karate Kid is alive, so I thought about the same thing. Then again, a lot could have happened from right before the 5 year gab to 3008. In continuity this is almost 20 years. This part I actually expect we'll get and explanation on at some point.

[THEDOC]

I don't get what you mean.

For this Superman, there was no pocket-universe-Superboy. That whole mess of continuity was washed away when the future switched to the Glorithverse (although it seems that the pocket universe itself remained; not sure what that implies).

Whatever meeting this Superman had with the Legion after the (post-Infinite-Crisis version of the) first Crisis had, by definition, nothing to do with a pocket-universe Superboy.

I suspect Johns's cutoff point was a little before Crisis, because, in original LSH continuity, Lightning Lad, Saturn Girl and Cosmic Boy retired from the Legion just before Crisis, and I suspect that didn't happen in Johns's Legion. That's just speculation, though.

So there was no Matrix/Supergirl who was around during 'The Rein of Superman" arc? The Supergirl stuff has me all confused.

[shaxper]

thoroughly confused and ignorant question to follow...

Okay, so where do Jim Shooter's current version of the Legion and the Lightening Saga version of the Legion fit into all of this?

[Matthew E]

thedoc: Uh. I dunno. Ask a Superman or Supergirl fan. If she was there or not there, it's not because of Legion continuity; Legion continuity tends to be driven by Superman continuity.

shaxper: Jim Shooter's current version of the Legion is the threeboot version as introduced by Waid and Kitson in LSH v5 #1 in late 2004.

The Lightning Saga version of the Legion is the same version that appeared in Action Comics recently and that's starring in Final Crisis: Legion of 3 Worlds. As described above, they're a lot like the original Legion if their history had taken some different turns around the time of CoIE. For most purposes they can be assumed to be the original Legion.

[shaxper]

thedoc
shaxper: Jim Shooter's current version of the Legion is the threeboot version as introduced by Waid and Kitson in LSH v5 #1 in late 2004.

The Lightning Saga version of the Legion is the same version that appeared in Action Comics recently and that's starring in Final Crisis: Legion of 3 Worlds. As described above, they're a lot like the original Legion if their history had taken some different turns around the time of CoIE. For most purposes they can be assumed to be the original Legion.

Glad to hear your explanation. Thank you. I was really worried, after reading the first issue, that Shooter's version was just going to be ignored. I really prefer them to the character's that starred in the first issue of LoTW. I doubt they'll be the surviving incarnation after Final Crisis is over, but I'll keep reading just for them.

[Mat001]

I don't get what you mean.

For this Superman, there was no pocket-universe-Superboy. That whole mess of continuity was washed away when the future switched to the Glorithverse (although it seems that the pocket universe itself remained; not sure what that implies).

Except he still remembers and Linda Danvers came from there. In the past, Clark has remembered all timelines when they were changed. This was shown in "Time & Time Again" and recently with the three Legions. What Clark doesn't remember is that he fought and killed three Kryptonian criminals. That part has changed for him.

Whatever meeting this Superman had with the Legion after the (post-Infinite-Crisis version of the) first Crisis had, by definition, nothing to do with a pocket-universe Superboy.

I suspect Johns's cutoff point was a little before Crisis, because, in original LSH continuity, Lightning Lad, Saturn Girl and Cosmic Boy retired from the Legion just before Crisis, and I suspect that didn't happen in Johns's Legion. That's just speculation, though.

Well, going by statements made and what we've seen since, their retirement didn't stick.

Also Karate Kid is alive, so I thought about the same thing. Then again, a lot could have happened from right before the 5 year gab to 3008. In continuity this is almost 20 years. This part I actually expect we'll get and explanation on at some point.

Hints were dropped that a lot had happened, including Karate Kid having a student and his resurrection. As well as Polar Boy being bumped up to the main team from the subs.

So there was no Matrix/Supergirl who was around during 'The Rein of Superman" arc? The Supergirl stuff has me all confused.

Nope, she was around. Linda was recently seen in "To Reign In Hell" #1.

[lawman]

thedoc:The Lightning Saga version of the Legion is the same version that appeared in Action Comics recently and that's starring in Final Crisis: Legion of 3 Worlds. As described above, they're a lot like the original Legion if their history had taken some different turns around the time of CoIE. For most purposes they can be assumed to be the original Legion.
You've offered an admirably coherent explanation, but I have to disagree with your last sentence. The original post-Crisis Legion, as you've described, is the one that visited the Pocket Universe, and went through the Magic Wars, and experienced the "Five Year Gap." It ceased to exist as of Zero Hour.

Geoff's "unboot" version is not that Legion. It's a "New Earth" variant on that Legion. Its early history is very similar, but this one interacted with the "real" teenage Kal-El, not an ersatz version. It also apparently never had any version of Supergirl (nor even Laurel Gand) as a member. Its history appears to diverge from the original most dramatically around (so far as I can tell) LSH v3 #27, from 1986, and heads off in a very different direction.

[Superboy-Prime]

I hope we get the legion from The Action COmics arc recently. Best Incarnation Ive ever read. The chracters were really likeable. don't care much for the teenage versions tho.

[Matthew E]

You've offered an admirably coherent explanation, but I have to disagree with your last sentence. The original post-Crisis Legion, as you've described, is the one that visited the Pocket Universe, and went through the Magic Wars, and experienced the "Five Year Gap." It ceased to exist as of Zero Hour.

Geoff's "unboot" version is not that Legion. It's a "New Earth" variant on that Legion. Its early history is very similar, but this one interacted with the "real" teenage Kal-El, not an ersatz version. It also apparently never had any version of Supergirl (nor even Laurel Gand) as a member. Its history appears to diverge from the original most dramatically around (so far as I can tell) LSH v3 #27, from 1986, and heads off in a very different direction.

Thanks.

You wouldn't believe the arguments I've had about this on the Newsarama boards. Many people there hold the position that Johns's Legion is the original Legion, period. I see Johns's Legion as distinct from the original Legion in many ways (a couple of which you mention), but I'm sick of talking about that.

So when I say that, "for most purposes they can be assumed to be the original Legion," I'm just trying to get past that part of the discussion in a way that most people can go along with.

I think the biggest differences between Johns's Legion and the original Legion are:
- the original Legion's history between Crisis and Zero Hour
- Supergirl
- Johns's Legion (like the post-Zero-Hour Legion!) is predominantly about diversity and struggling against xenophobia; the original Legion sometimes touched on this theme but it was never the major thrust of the title

[Dr.Caveman]

(I hope we get the legion from The Action Comics arc recently. Best Incarnation Ive ever read. The chracters were really likable. don't care much for the teenage versions tho.)
I would agree I do not like the teen age incarnation of the team. By the way it is the same team as the recent arc.

[THEDOC]

Not to throw a wrentch but just a side comment. the ORIGINal SA Legion has made one appearance, during the Public Enemies arc in the Superman/Batman title, which also featured the SA Superman from "What happened to the Man of Tomorrow". Just an FYI.
Interesting thread though.

[lawman]

Thanks.

You wouldn't believe the arguments I've had about this on the Newsarama boards. Many people there hold the position that Johns's Legion is the original Legion, period. I see Johns's Legion as distinct from the original Legion in many ways (a couple of which you mention), but I'm sick of talking about that.
I haven't been in on those arguments. Perhaps that's for the best. I've heard about them, but it perplexes me; I honestly can't imagine how anyone could consider this Legion the same as the "original." For any long-time Legion fan, the differences are obvious. For anyone who's not a long-time Legion fan, why get worked up about it in the first place?