FC 6 - Preview and Spoilers [Archive] - Comic Book Resources Forums

Captain Smith

08-20-2008, 08:48 AM

As the entire world turns against them, the last of Earth's Super Heroes must face the unstoppable power of the Gods of Apokolips for the final time. Supergirl vs. Mary Marvel! Superman vs. Darkseid! The fate of the Flash! And the incredible return of the New Gods! The End of Days has come and the ultimate war between good and evil will at last be decided on the battlefield of a broken world!

I'm sorry to complain but doesn't this sound like a bore:

1. SG vs Mary Marvel - wonder who will win?
2. Superman vs. Darkseid - well, isn't that a new idea. Who thought of that? Think that the battle will be conclusive and we will never see Darkseid again?
3. The Fate of the Flash - I guess that a Flash will die - ya think?
4. So good and evil will finally be decided and after it there's no more evil and we will all be happy.

Not beat a dead Granny Goodness, as I have said this before, but this endless focus on Darkseid, the Kirby New Clown Gods, blah, blah as central to the DCU is such a bore.

Will Darkseid threaten a new crisis in 3 or so years? I just wonder.

The COIE was well done, then we had some attempt to play with its messed up post crisis continuity. IC was ok but then Countdown went down the toilet. FC just a lot of mindless storm and thunder without a strategic goals such as COIE had.

Superman vs Darkseid !!!! Amazing!!

Jolly Mon

08-20-2008, 08:55 AM

But.. but.. it's Grant Morrison! We have to kiss his butt!!! Don't we?!? Don't we?

BoSoxJay

08-20-2008, 08:59 AM

Well, inmho, Darkseid vs. Superman as written by Morrison should promise to be a bit more than the usual fight between the two. Why bother complainign a out FC because, frankly, it is beating a dead horse. If you are not happy with the product then don't buy it. Pretty much everything FC related is being told in that book or a tie in that has an FC banner on it so it's not like you will be lost in whatever books you choose to read by NOT picking up FC. If you are just trying to be fashionable by bitching about it then there are tons of threadshere where that is going on. At least wait until issues 4 and 5 before whining aboit number six though...

Captain Smith

08-20-2008, 10:09 AM

If you don't like it, don't buy it - well, that removes the idea of all literary criticism. The forums exist so that we can express opinions about the genre we read.

Why have negative restaurant reviews?

I have an idea - if you don't like criticisms then don't read the thread. :biggrin:

Adam C

08-20-2008, 10:14 AM

[
The COIE was well done, then we had some attempt to play with its messed up post crisis continuity. IC was ok but then Countdown went down the toilet. FC just a lot of mindless storm and thunder without a strategic goals such as COIE had.

And why do you believe this, out of curiosity?

Dark Master

08-20-2008, 10:53 AM

I must admit out of all the Crisis' so far this one leaves me underwhelmed. As many others have said it just seems like allot of choas without much direction. Barry Allens return was handled very badly and not explained at all. Also how could an Alpha Lantern be possesed by a New God? And wouldn't the Guardians be able to detect it?

Also not looking forward to post-crisis when DC has to clean up all the confusion due to the conflicting storylines.

BoSoxJay

08-20-2008, 11:24 AM

Dark Master

08-20-2008, 11:25 AM

yeah but my point is that the Guardians should've noticed she was possesed.

Flamebird

08-20-2008, 11:29 AM

Didn't we just have a war between good and evil where good lost?

Wasn't that the whole point of this series?

Captain Smith

08-20-2008, 11:47 AM

Adam - COIE had a goal in mind. It was to clear up the mixed continuity of the various versions of the heroes starting from the first Supes and Batman appearances in the 30's. It was also to clear up the mixture of Earth 1 and 2 stories - it was sometimes never clear what was what. If the Spectre was on Earth 2, how did he play with Supes 1.

Also, the Marvels and other hero panethons were to be moved into a common base with the mainstream heroes (whether that was a good idea was debatable). So no more alternate Earths.

The Guardians were unique to Earth 1 and the Oans were causal to the multiverse.

So the collapse of universes made some sense and the villian - the Antimonitor was a new player. Not an old hoary chestnut like Darkseid.

IC tried to use that continuity in an interesting fashion. However, IMHO - Mr. Mind puking out new worlds that contained new Spectres and Guardians, GL Bats and lots of Supes, etc. was forced but had some interest. The Monarch interaction with these worlds went nowhere as far as I can tell. It would have been better to just recreate the multiverse in some fashion in its original form.

The current FC seems to be without a focus and just an event - the multiverse crashes, here comes Darkseid. I don't sense a resolution.

Let's move genres for a second. In some writer's series of novels, the beloved character faces new situations that usually get resolved in a book. There is some continuity of their social lives. For example, Alex Delaware or Lucas Davenport in the detective genre. Each book has a point.

However, in some of the horror/supernatural stories, there is a never ending plot and a glacial movement with no resolution. Anita Blake has been farting around with the same plot line for ages - with no end in sight. Kim Harrison's books are similar - same villians - over and over. There are other examples.

I don't see FC doing anything with a point except some battles that won't finally end something. Good and evil will still fight. Darkseid will be doing the same crap in a few years. I've already expressed that making these Kirby characters so central to the DCU is not to my taste.

I prefer, for example, the GL story line - the new Corps and black lantern is covering new ground. Darkseid vs. Supes isn't. The best Darkseid fight was the Great Darkness Saga - haven't seen one since that was comparable.

UserIDGoesHere

08-20-2008, 12:00 PM

Well, inmho, Darkseid vs. Superman as written by Morrison should promise to be a bit more than the usual fight between the two.
I agree ... based on all that has been said about this re-launch of the New Gods, I think it is reasonable to expect this to be entirely different than any fight between the two that has come before.

Dark Master

08-20-2008, 12:02 PM

How many different ways is there for them to fight? Superman can fly, punch real fast and strong and he can freeze with his breath and shoot beams from his eyes. Those are his only options. Darkseids current powerset is unknown.

TuPeT

08-20-2008, 12:41 PM

People start bashing on FC 6, but already? I'm feeling that it will be like Batman, lots of people saying that is crap, that Morrison has lost it, but then as issue come out blows everyones minds. Then most of the bashers starts to say that it's marvelous, awesome...

I prefer waiting for the next issues, FC #3 elevated my expectations about this. I'll always believe in Morrison, he's not that celebrated for nothing...

Sean Walsh

08-20-2008, 01:04 PM

I actually read FC #6 and I agree, it is a bore.

However, Secret Invasion #8 is just fantastic. Bendis never continues to disappoint in launching a story with a BANG! then take 6-8 issues to slowly and lazily get toward a conclusion that is both unsatisfying and mismatched with the lead-in it got...

.....ok, confession time: I have not read either issue yet. I know, I know, "I'm a lying liar!" "Sinner!" blah blah.

Complaining about a comic that has yet to be published, and which is still several months of storyline(s) away, belongs under a "Air Marshal Walsh complainz about some such thing" thread, not a "FINAL CRISIS 6 - PREVIEW! SPOILERS! WHAT YOU LIKED FROM WHAT YOU READ! WHAT YOU DIDN'T LIKE FROM WHAT YOU READ!" thread, wouldn't it? So why is a not-New Gods fan reading a comic book story that's recreating/relaunching/glorifying the New Gods at the sake of the entire DCU?

Re: the ol' New Gods/Darkseid/Fourth World/Fifth World chestnut: seriously, why ARE you reading this if you don't like them? I'm not gonna buy a 7-issue comic book series called SEAN WALSH IS A DOODY FACE, featuring everything I don't like in comics being praised and heralded as the greatest thing published while bashing everything I love.

And besides, it's not like FINAL CRISIS is being shoehorned into every single ongoing title. This is DC: the editors can't think straight enough to do that these days. :tongue:

4thHorseman

08-20-2008, 01:14 PM

I'm sorry to complain but doesn't this sound like a bore:

No

1. SG vs Mary Marvel - wonder who will win?

It's not about who wins, it's how they go about winning. If you think who wins is more important, you wouldn't be reading comics. How many villains actually lose on a constant basis in their own books?

2. Superman vs. Darkseid - well, isn't that a new idea. Who thought of that? Think that the battle will be conclusive and we will never see Darkseid again?

Who's to say it's a straight battle? It's Morrison, it could be a number of things. It could be Darkseid tries to use the ALE against Superman and it's Superman's will vs Darkseid's ALE. Jumping to conclusions is a bit much.

3. The Fate of the Flash - I guess that a Flash will die - ya think?

Maybe. Or perhaps it's a red herring to think a Flash will die. There's more than one fate people can fall to.

4. So good and evil will finally be decided and after it there's no more evil and we will all be happy.

:confused:

Not beat a dead Granny Goodness, as I have said this before, but this endless focus on Darkseid, the Kirby New Clown Gods, blah, blah as central to the DCU is such a bore.

I disagree. This is the first time I've actually been interested in the New Gods. Even Kirby couldn't make me care about them.

Will Darkseid threaten a new crisis in 3 or so years? I just wonder.

Maybe. I mean, he's only been...what...the reason for 3 crisis's in the past 20-25 years or so?

The COIE was well done, then we had some attempt to play with its messed up post crisis continuity. IC was ok but then Countdown went down the toilet. FC just a lot of mindless storm and thunder without a strategic goals such as COIE had.

Final Crisis isn't about the crash of the multiverse. Grant already has said the multiverse will still be around at the end. He stated it like a year before the first issue came out. The whole idea is to make a new version of the New Gods and make them what Kirby intended them to be. Gods. Not some panzies that have appeared in the comics since Kirby stopped writing.

And btw, if you finished the full solicit, you would notice that Darkseid isn't even the major threat. A new character is (or at least what appears to be a new character)

Buried Alien

08-20-2008, 01:14 PM

I actually read FC #6 .

Where'd you manage to find a copy so many months in advance, Sean? :confused:

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Magneto Rocks

08-20-2008, 01:23 PM

The End of Days has come and the ultimate war between good and evil will at last be decided on the battlefield of a broken world! [/B]

I'm sorry to complain but doesn't this sound like a bore:

....

...

If this is what passes for boring then clearly I need to get out more.

("New Clown Gods" was my favourite there, an imaginative insult indeed.)

Sean Walsh

08-20-2008, 01:30 PM

Where'd you manage to find a copy so many months in advance, Sean? :confused:

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

The same magic store where I read Secret Invasion #8, Barry Allen: Rebirth #1 (let's just say it'd make sense as a one-shot, because......um....) and next year's fantastic Spider-Man: Just Kidding, They're Still Married special.

And trust me, you haven't seen hilarity until you see Darkseid pistol-whip Superman with the pelt of Tawky Tawny...

Magneto Rocks

08-20-2008, 01:34 PM

Paul McEnery

08-20-2008, 02:15 PM

Where'd you manage to find a copy so many months in advance, Sean? :confused:

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

He found it in a box full of Spiderman #9026 -- worst issue ever btw, it just reprints the Clone Saga as tiny, tiny thumbnails -- and Avengers -126, the adventures of Hank Pym and Bruce Banner in their sandpit as they reinvent the bucket and spade and then play make believe in lots of different voices before L'il Donny Blake acts all big and tough and stomps their castle, which is how come he got the limp.

Jake V

08-20-2008, 02:45 PM

There's no spoilers in this thread, just nerd whining.

I feel cheated.

Dark Master

08-20-2008, 02:51 PM

He found it in a box full of Spiderman #9026 -- worst issue ever btw, it just reprints the Clone Saga as tiny, tiny thumbnails -- and Avengers -126, the adventures of Hank Pym and Bruce Banner in their sandpit as they reinvent the bucket and spade and then play make believe in lots of different voices before L'il Donny Blake acts all big and tough and stomps their castle, which is how come he got the limp.

Yeah those are almost as bad as Uncanny X-men 600, at the end Emma walks in on Cyclops and Beast and says "Scott whats going on here? And why did you just cough up a hairball?"

XPac

08-20-2008, 03:02 PM

If Darkseid doesn't kick Supes butt, I'll be majorly disappointed.

Salvaging Darkseids sorely lacking reputation is really the biggest gain DC can walk away from with this event, if they play their cards right.

Paul McEnery

08-20-2008, 03:04 PM

Yeah those are almost as bad as Uncanny X-men 600, at the end Emma walks in on Cyclops and Beast and says "Scott whats going on here? And why did you just cough up a hairball?"

Yeah, but the beginning of 601 totally makes up for it.

Paul McEnery

08-20-2008, 03:06 PM

....

...

If this is what passes for boring then clearly I need to get out more.

("New Clown Gods" was my favourite there, an imaginative insult indeed.)

Come to think of it, I'm scared of the New Clown Gods. Replacing the old Boom Tube, we've now got a tiny little car that's falling to pieces, and yet all these New Clown Gods get out of it!

Also, they all look like Insane Clown Posse, and have really big feet.

Captain Smith

08-20-2008, 03:21 PM

My comment on clowns is easily documented by looking at a list of the characters from the Kirby world. The Forever people in their car - if that isn't Barnum and Bailey - I don't know what is.

Granny Goodness, Mister Miracle, Big Bear, Mark Moonrider, Big Bardass (pardon me). And their costumes - I know that is Kirby's style but silly.

Anyway - I've expressed my disdain for Kirby Crazy Krew as central to the DCU's latest crisis enough.

I'm waiting for the brand new character that will help us focus on the walls of the multiverse collapsing yet again. Perhaps Darkside will pull 365 new worlds out of his backside for a new comic every day, just as Mr. Mind puked a universe for each week of the year. Monarch - are you a butterfly now?

Paul McEnery

08-20-2008, 03:25 PM

berk

08-20-2008, 05:53 PM

And trust me, you haven't seen hilarity until you see Darkseid pistol-whip Superman with the pelt of Tawky Tawny.......Is it wrong that this is now the number one scene I want to see from Final Crisis?If Darkseid doesn't kick Supes butt, I'll be majorly disappointed.

Salvaging Darkseids sorely lacking reputation is really the biggest gain DC can walk away from with this event, if they play their cards right.I realise that some of these comments were at least partly tongue in cheek, but they reminded me of something I meant to bring up a few times before but kept forgetting.

I feel that in thinking about the New Gods, we have to be very careful we don't fall into the same mode of thinking as that which has led to most of the problems with those characters in the first place. If the only reason we're disappointed with the usual treatment they receive in DCU comics is that we want them to be more powerful and impressive, then I think we're really missing the point. We're just looking at the New Gods the way so many Hulk or Superman or Batman fans look at their favourites: as a stand-in for ourselves so we can enjoy feeling big and powerful and scary while we read the story.

I can understand if you're so tired of, say, seeing Darkseid slapped around by Superman or outsmarted by Batman, that you'd just for once like to see the opposite. It's easy to fall into that way of thinking, because it's true, as far as it goes, that Darkseid wouldn't be in a physical fight with Superman, let alone lose one, etc, etc, but to focus on that aspect is to lose sight of the problem of which it is no more than a symptom.

So, as I say, I can understand the suspicion towards the 'Superman vs Darkseid' advertising blurb, since in the past that's pretty much always meant Superman beating up Darkseid in a fistfight. And I can understand the desire to see a kind of mirror image of that kind of scene. It's tempting, but the problem is that it IS just a mirror image, IOW that it's really the same scene (in reverse), the same story, serving the same cheap fan-identification purposes. You might as well just join the majority and "cheer for" Suiperman or Batman, because that's all you're doing anyway, just with a different character.

IOW, if you find your main desire for the FW concept is to see Darkseid beat up Superman, then what you really want to read is a Thanos, and not a Fourth World story. These (FW) characters aren't about that, IMO - which I think is exactly why they never caught on with fans in the first place: they were never meant to function as nice, cosy paragons for fan-identification, so to those fans they always come off as unsatisfactory creations that don't work the way they instinctively feel successful characters should work.

But what they really represented was an attempt to create a modern, comic-book mythology - a problematic endeavour in itself, even without the fan-incomprehension - and that means something with very different goals from the usual superhero wish-fulfillment character.

I think Morrison is making a serious effort to go back to that conception of the FW characters. I'm not sure if I'll end up liking the route he takes to get there, or even the final destination (i.e. whatever form the new New Gods take, and whatever relation the FW concept ends up having with the DCU). But I respect the intent. So I'm hoping this blurb was just another case of the DC marketing dept mis-representing or misunderstanding whatever description they've been given of FC#6, or perhaps even some deliberate mis-direction from Morrison in order to paly on fan expectations. Time will tell.

Rio_de_Janeiro

08-20-2008, 06:32 PM

Let's move genres for a second. In some writer's series of novels, the beloved character faces new situations that usually get resolved in a book.

in which you try to compare a visual medium with a literary medium. the same exact argument could've been born out of a contrast between comics and cinema and (again) would take you nowhere beyond very few and quite contrived comparisons. just because it has words and is sequential in its plotting, comics can't be compared to literature that easily.

actually, this has been the biggest error in most comics readers: comparing the reading experience of a comic book to the literature experience. this is the basis for the ages old argument that "comics promote illiteracy".

in addition, your argument gets even weaker when you add the element of SEQUENTIAL comic books. first of all, comics (in the current model, the two big ones, superheroes, etc.) ARE structured in similar ways as soaps are (just check levitz's writing for DC book). Having the story told by MULTIPLE authors and co-authors (illustrators) gives comics a totally different nature than a book written by one single author.

Superhero comics are also structured to actually NEVER end. They are open formats, with open authorship. AND they float with times. Stories and structures from the golden and silver ages only get retold if they are ironically or honourably tweaked with. The same stories get retold, but updated.

and many many many errors occur.

therefore,,,,

your comparison would only be valid if you compared, let's say, Darkseid's role in Final Crisis to the role of a professor moriarty, written in 2008, by John Doe, inked by Janet Doe, scripted by Elijah Dooe, coloured by Francesca Doee, edited by Sylvia Doe....continuing the book written by Marky Duuu within the "sherlock and his wife" story arch.

otherwise, you're just reproducing the same arguments that "literature" accused comics of : not being literary enough.

i'd rather accuse Sherlock Holmes of not being "comics" enough. it has the same theoretical and logical construction.

cheers,
rio

Paul McEnery

08-20-2008, 06:40 PM

your comparison would only be valid if you compared, let's say, Darkseid's role in Final Crisis to the role of a professor moriarty, written in 2008, by John Doe

You know, he's a helluva singer, and a fair to middling actor, but I'm not sure if he's up to writing 19th Century melodrama.

OTOH, I would be interested in seeing Exene's Wonder Woman.

Dark Master

08-20-2008, 07:51 PM

XPac

08-20-2008, 08:39 PM

I realise that some of these comments were at least partly tongue in cheek, but they reminded me of something I meant to bring up a few times before but kept forgetting.

I feel that in thinking about the New Gods, we have to be very careful we don't fall into the same mode of thinking as that which has led to most of the problems with those characters in the first place. If the only reason we're disappointed with the usual treatment they receive in DCU comics is that we want them to be more powerful and impressive, then I think we're really missing the point. We're just looking at the New Gods the way so many Hulk or Superman or Batman fans look at their favourites: as a stand-in for ourselves so we can enjoy feeling big and powerful and scary while we read the story.

I can understand if you're so tired of, say, seeing Darkseid slapped around by Superman or outsmarted by Batman, that you'd just for once like to see the opposite. It's easy to fall into that way of thinking, because it's true, as far as it goes, that Darkseid wouldn't be in a physical fight with Superman, let alone lose one, etc, etc, but to focus on that aspect is to lose sight of the problem of which it is no more than a symptom.

So, as I say, I can understand the suspicion towards the 'Superman vs Darkseid' advertising blurb, since in the past that's pretty much always meant Superman beating up Darkseid in a fistfight. And I can understand the desire to see a kind of mirror image of that kind of scene. It's tempting, but the problem is that it IS just a mirror image, IOW that it's really the same scene (in reverse), the same story, serving the same cheap fan-identification purposes. You might as well just join the majority and "cheer for" Suiperman or Batman, because that's all you're doing anyway, just with a different character.

IOW, if you find your main desire for the FW concept is to see Darkseid beat up Superman, then what you really want to read is a Thanos, and not a Fourth World story. These (FW) characters aren't about that, IMO - which I think is exactly why they never caught on with fans in the first place: they were never meant to function as nice, cosy paragons for fan-identification, so to those fans they always come off as unsatisfactory creations that don't work the way they instinctively feel successful characters should work.

But what they really represented was an attempt to create a modern, comic-book mythology - a problematic endeavour in itself, even without the fan-incomprehension - and that means something with very different goals from the usual superhero wish-fulfillment character.

I think Morrison is making a serious effort to go back to that conception of the FW characters. I'm not sure if I'll end up liking the route he takes to get there, or even the final destination (i.e. whatever form the new New Gods take, and whatever relation the FW concept ends up having with the DCU). But I respect the intent. So I'm hoping this blurb was just another case of the DC marketing dept mis-representing or misunderstanding whatever description they've been given of FC#6, or perhaps even some deliberate mis-direction from Morrison in order to paly on fan expectations. Time will tell.

Truthfully I do prefer Thanos.

That said, I'll settle for the Darkseid we got in pre-crisis. I don't think that's asking for too much.

When Darkseid shows up, I want every hero on the page to basically crap in their pants. I don't want to feel like a Darkseid comic can be resolved by Superman simply punching him for a few panels.

Buried Alien

08-20-2008, 09:57 PM

The only time that Darkseid ever appeared to me as a "bigger than life" villain was in the first comic that I ever saw him in: the Marvel/DC 1982 crossover X-MEN/NEW TEEN TITANS: APOKOLIPS NOW.

Everything else I've seen him in since (and that includes old, Pre-COIE back issues dating back before APOKOLIPS NOW) casts him as the most powerful of the regular rotation DCU villains, but still a regular rotation DCU villain.

Maybe Darkseid fails to live up to expectations because he's been overrated all along.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

berk

08-20-2008, 10:32 PM

I think part of the problem with the New Gods powerlevel is that it's kind of a damned if you do and don't situation.

The reason the New Gods are presented to us in the way they are is so we can still relate to them. If you made them like Galactus or The Living Tribunal then they become abstract to us.I just heard a high-jumper in the Olympics talking about, as he put it, "his relationship with the bar." He said something like, "The bar is my competitor. I always give it a hard look righ before I jump, just to let it know I'm going to beat it this time."

This athlete is obviously personalizing his relationship with an inanimate object because he feels it helps him do something he's trying to do. But at the same time, he knows it's just a bar, just a piece of fibreglass or whatever it's made of, that can't react to him or his thoughts in any way. It's just there.

I'd agree that one reason we sometimes personalize as anthropomorphic gods the dimly understood forces or ideas that we believe underlie existence is that we find it easier to relate to something in human form than an abstract idea. But at the same time, we should always remember in the back of our minds that even though we find it helpful to imagine those abstract ideas in the form of human beings, they aren't really human beings, just as the high-jumper's bar isn't really another person competing against him.

Also: 'relating to them' isn't the only reason for picturing them in human form, or even necessarily the most important one. Another thing you can do with ideas imagined as embodied in human form, is tell stories about them, about those characters. Stories that help us explore the nature of these difficult to grasp ideas, the relationships amongst them, how they affect our existence, our environment, our minds, everything.

And I know there's a lot of resistance to this idea, but relating to the characters in the sense of identifying with them to the degree that you think of them as people you know, people you love or hate, etc - all that is not an intrinsic element of stories in general. It's an intrinsic element of certain particular kinds of stories. I don't think it's intrinsic to myth, for example, and myth is what I think Kirby was, and Morrison is trying to do.

XPac

08-20-2008, 10:40 PM

The only time that Darkseid ever appeared to me as a "bigger than life" villain was in the first comic that I ever saw him in: the DC/Marvel 1982 crossover X-MEN/NEW TEEN TITANS: APOKOLIPS NOW.

Everything else I've seen him in since (and that includes old, Pre-COIE back issues dating back before APOKOLIPS NOW) casts him as the most powerful of the regular rotation DCU villains, but still a regular DCU regular rotation villain.

Maybe Darkseid fails to live up to expectations because he's been overrated all along.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Ever read the Great Darkness Saga?

But I do think in general a failing of DC is to great villains that don't live up to their expectations. They'll often have impressive debuts, but are subsequently watered down. Doomsday, Neuron, Bane, Zoom, etc. It's an area DC really needs to work on.

Hopefully Final Crisis will do that for Darkseid.

Buried Alien

08-20-2008, 10:50 PM

Ever read the Great Darkness Saga?

Tried to, but couldn't get through it because I found the art style too distracting.

But I do think in general a failing of DC is to great villains that don't live up to their expectations. They'll often have impressive debuts, but are subsequently watered down. Doomsday, Neuron, Bane, Zoom, etc. It's an area DC really needs to work on.

The problem with most of these villains is that they open with their best act, and are left without an encore. After you've killed Superman or broken Batman, what do you do next?

Even the Joker had to work his way up, over forty years, to crippling Batgirl and killing Robin.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

XPac

08-20-2008, 10:58 PM

Tried to, but couldn't get through it because I found the art style too distracting.

The problem with most of these villains is that they open with their best act, and are left without an encore. After you've killed Superman or broken Batman, what do you do next?

Even the Joker had to work his way up, over forty years, to crippling Batgirl and killing Robin.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

If you want a story of a villain living up to their potential, the Great Darkness Saga is a dam fine example.

I'll agree that Doomsday had the best debut possible... but he still have multiple showings afterwards which demonstrated what a beast he could be.

Since it eventually went down hill fast. Seeing the bones on his fist break against the big S on Supes chest pretty much killed any hope the character might have for himself.

The best marvel villains, like Doom or Thanos, still come off credible even though they basically lose all the time too. And it comes in handy. It would just be nice if DC had more villains like that. Darkseid could be that, if they tried protecting the character a bit more. He can lose without being made to look like a loser. It's not necessarily easy... but it can be done.

Dark Master

08-21-2008, 01:13 AM

I liked Darkseid in the X-men/Titans Crossover as well, but let's face it he still got his ass handed to him by Dark Phoenix.

I want to see Darkseid with a power level similar to that of Tyrant in the Marvel U.

Sean Walsh

08-21-2008, 06:13 AM

Come to think of it, I'm scared of the New Clown Gods. Replacing the old Boom Tube, we've now got a tiny little car that's falling to pieces, and yet all these New Clown Gods get out of it!

Also, they all look like Insane Clown Posse, and have really big feet.

Funny story: Kanto looks exactly the same, with Renaissance gear and all.

Sean Walsh

08-21-2008, 06:15 AM

Monarch - are you a butterfly now?

Did Captain Smith just make a Venture Brothers reference?

If so - any negativity in my original response has been retconned into clowny goodness.

Not Clowny Goodness and her Female Bozos, mind you, just normal clowny goodness.

Sean Walsh

08-21-2008, 06:18 AM

Dark Master

08-21-2008, 08:11 AM

Thor is also a God and he's had his ass handed to him before.

Captain Smith

08-21-2008, 09:16 AM

My comment on literary styles was based on the notion of the Final in FC or that the war between good and evil will be resolved. Yes, the books have a soap opera never ending style. So perhaps, the never ending crisis would be more appropriate. It is also my opinion of what I like which is self-contained stories that do have some reasonable resolution.

I was disappointed in the GLC recently where Mogul gets thrown into Mercy - so maybe we are rid of him. Until the next issue, where he flies out. Oh, well. It's stupid plot to continue the character. Someone with intelligence would have made sure Mogul was down for count and taken the yellow rings. To continue his usage, the GLC got stupid. I would have rather he was dead. The new corps, dead rising is a nice line - we don't need to save villians always.

I once talked to a fantasy writer who had a never ending series where the BG never gets nailed. He told me that it was part of his contract to produce a series like that and it was getting boring writing convoluted plots that allowed such.

When the contract was up, he ditched that universe.

We've already debated on the board what a GOD means in the MU and DCU. To cut to chase, someone with a lot of power who calls themself a GOD. Such critters constantly get their butts kicked by someone else who exceeds their power level and doesn't have the ego trip.

Dark Master

08-21-2008, 09:28 AM

XPac

08-21-2008, 11:09 AM

Exactly, Look at Thor, God of Thunder, he gets his ass handed to him all the time by people who are far less then Gods.

Tyrant however who is not a God takes an enormous powerlevel to defeat.

All being a God means is that you have a decent level of power at your command and people worship you. Nothing more.

Yeah, but part of the problem is that Darkseids power levels have actually dropped.

Once upon a time, the Omega Beams were unstoppable. Now they can be deflected by heat ray vision.

Basically, all that's needed is to keep the character at the level he was in the pre-Crisis days. There is value in having villains with that level of credibility. But instead DC does the opposite.

Final Crisis is suppossed to be a Darkseid event, but they had him job out 2-3 times just prior to it, rather than building up the character like they should have. It just makes no sense to handle the character this way.

Captain Smith

08-21-2008, 11:23 AM

It would be interesting if we come up with an alternate universe with the fully charged Great Darkness Darkseid - all by himself (with no clowns) and able to teleport planets and control 6 billion fully charged Daxamites.

It was the arrival of those folks when freed from his mind control that made Darkseid take off. Perhaps, he could figure out how to keep them under control and try again. Also, get some of Mon-el's antilead serum. Some Guardian clones, Orion clones for the mix.

100, 000 Kryptonians - so what - here come 6 Billion PC level kryptonians.

Sanlear

08-21-2008, 11:27 AM

Paul McEnery

08-21-2008, 11:30 AM

Clowns are scary when you think about it.

Can't sleep! Clowns will get me!

Sanlear

08-21-2008, 11:30 AM

Can't sleep! Clowns will get me! Watch out. They're under your bed.

Buried Alien

08-21-2008, 07:01 PM

Yeah, but part of the problem is that Darkseids power levels have actually dropped.

Once upon a time, the Omega Beams were unstoppable. Now they can be deflected by heat ray vision.

Basically, all that's needed is to keep the character at the level he was in the pre-Crisis days. There is value in having villains with that level of credibility. But instead DC does the opposite.

From what I've seen in Pre-COIE comics, even Pre-COIE Darkseid never seemed really as powerful as he is *claimed* to be.

X-MEN/NEW TEEN TITANS was published three years ahead of COIE, but even then, Starfire was able to cause Darkseid's Omega Effect to backfire with her Starbolts.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Dark Master

08-21-2008, 07:05 PM

From what I've seen in Pre-COIE comics, even Pre-COIE Darkseid never seemed really as powerful as he is *claimed* to be.

X-MEN/NEW TEEN TITANS was published three years ahead of COIE, but even then, Starfire was able to cause Darkseid's Omega Effect to backfire with her Starbolts.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Yeah everyone just focuses on the fact that he calls himself a God. But all that means is that he has some power and people worship him.

Look what Doomsday did to him.

4thHorseman

08-21-2008, 07:12 PM

Well, Morrison seems to be making Darkseid an actual GOD in terms of power level this time. He's already said that every time we've seen him so far has been (can't remember his exact words, but something like) just a weak form of him since his full manifestation hasn't been able to form in the physical realm.

So it seems Grant is going to try to explain that he really is a God, he just hasn't been in his godly form in the DCU.

Amar_001

08-22-2008, 03:40 AM

Yeh i liked the new virson most ....

Magneto Rocks

08-22-2008, 05:39 AM

[QUOTE=Buried Alien;7423905]From what I've seen in Pre-COIE comics, even Pre-COIE Darkseid never seemed really as powerful as he is *claimed* to be.
/QUOTE]

It wasn't the Crisis that neutered Darkseid, it was basically everyone using him not named Kirby who watered him down to become "Villain of the month".

the4thpip

08-22-2008, 06:24 AM

I think they ca justify Kraken being possessed because befor she was an Alpha Lantern she showed up in "Sinestro Corps War" as one of the Green Lanterns from Apokolips. For all we know she could have been a plant from the beginning somehow.

Batman and Mister Miracle fought Kraken back in 1977. Back then, Kraken was a criminal computer mind.

I think this is a clue.

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/1098/400/1098_4_138.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/p6Clhn9WDI/RmjCNhOWVGI/AAAAAAAABLU/U3cT2rVAHyw/s1600/06-07-2007%2B07%3B39%3B13PM.JPG

Batman stole Kraken's memory. Holy identity crisis!

http://bp2.blogger.com/__p6Clhn9WDI/RmjCNhOWVGI/AAAAAAAABLU/U3cT2rVAHyw/s1600-h/06-07-2007+07%3B39%3B13PM.JPG

Dark Master

08-22-2008, 06:29 AM

The Guardians still should've sensed it. And whatever personality was there should've been overridden by the Alpha Lantern transformation and programming.

Sean Walsh

08-22-2008, 06:30 AM

Can't sleep! Clowns will get me!

Funny story: when the clowns get you, they prepare you for Darkseid to feast upon. :eek:

Darkseid IS...........................hungry!

GreenMeansGo

08-23-2008, 12:18 AM

Wait. Wait. Is nobody making a big deal about this Dark Monitor whatsit!? I am completely psyched about that.

Paul McEnery

08-23-2008, 12:30 AM

The Guardians still should've sensed it. And whatever personality was there should've been overridden by the Alpha Lantern transformation and programming.

Indeed.

Which would seem to indicate that the New Gods really are as hotsy totsy as all that when they get their act together.

Magneto Rocks

08-23-2008, 05:40 AM

Indeed.

Which would seem to indicate that the New Gods really are as hotsy totsy as all that when they get their act together.

Exactly. Who would have thunk that GODS > Little Blue Space Dwarfs?

Samuraixsithlord

08-23-2008, 10:26 AM

Wait. Wait. Is nobody making a big deal about this Dark Monitor whatsit!? I am completely psyched about that.

I have a theory about The Dark Monitor. I think he's the mastermind behind Darkseids return. He helped Darkseid win the war in heaven and sent him to earth. In the solictiations it says that Darkseid's presence is weakening the fabric of reality. Since Earth is the center of the multiverse, this could potentially be very destructive.

Maybe this monitor is trying to destroy the multiverse so he can start over again and rejoin his fractured essense into one?

Samuraixsithlord

08-23-2008, 10:29 AM

Exactly. Who would have thunk that GODS > Little Blue Space Dwarfs?

Those little blue space dwarves are way older and wiser then the New Gods.

Each Guardian is said to have the power of 1,000 green lanterns.

Krona was able to overpower and consume Galactus

Dark Master

08-23-2008, 10:44 AM

Exactly. Who would have thunk that GODS > Little Blue Space Dwarfs?

As I said, Gods only means they have worshipers and some power. The Guardians have shown some amazing levels of power in the past. And they too have been called Gods by some in the DCU.

Samuraixsithlord

08-23-2008, 10:55 AM

As I said, Gods only means they have worshipers and some power. The Guardians have shown some amazing levels of power in the past. And they too have been called Gods by some in the DCU.

The Guardians were way more powerful then the new gods.

Wasn't there a storyline where the GL Corps went to war with Apokalips and were winning until The Guardians discovered that some cosmic catastrophie would happen if they destroyed Apokalips or something

Magneto Rocks

08-23-2008, 04:19 PM

As I said, Gods only means they have worshipers and some power. The Guardians have shown some amazing levels of power in the past. And they too have been called Gods by some in the DCU.

The Guardians are great, don't get me wrong... but they can't bend reality on a whim in the way the New Gods now can, they cannot consume human consciousness, and do not make reality sick by simply existing in it as the New Gods now do.

Those little blue space dwarves are way older and wiser then the New Gods.

Wiser is debateable- it depends on the God. Metron, for example, is unquestionably smarter than them, and I'd argue Highfather too since every Guardian who isn't Ganthet has been impressively blind. Older is simply wrong since the New Gods came into existence with the creation of the universe as we know it, after a blinding death-flash that wiped out the Old Gods and existence itself.

Each Guardian is said to have the power of 1,000 green lanterns.

Not these days- Superboy Prime can kill one. I'm willing to bet Darkseid's stronger than Superboy Prime.

The Guardians were way more powerful then the new gods.

Wasn't there a storyline where the GL Corps went to war with Apokalips and were winning until The Guardians discovered that some cosmic catastrophie would happen if they destroyed Apokalips or something

There was, but it didn't go at all like that. In fact, at one point, Darkseid slaughtered an army of Green Lanterns.... by dressing in yellow.

Dark Master

08-23-2008, 05:06 PM

Superman can take Darksied and SBP can take Superman and more. I don't think allot of people doubt that SBP can take Darkseid.

And have you seen some of the things the Guardians have done? Most Guardians merely hold there power back by their own choice. Look at Krona, look at Appa Ali Apsa. These guys are no pushovers.

Magneto Rocks

08-23-2008, 05:12 PM

Yeah... Superman can't take Darkseid. Superman can't come close to Darkseid.

Well actually, depends which Darkseid we're talking about- are we talking Jobberseid or Kirby's Darkseid/Morrison's Darkseid? Because the latter, Superman can't take. At all.

Dark Master

08-23-2008, 05:15 PM

If your talking about the current Darkseid I still say the Guardians can take him if they cut loose on him. Krona would teach him a lesson.

JWangSDC

08-23-2008, 08:30 PM

Not these days- Superboy Prime can kill one. I'm willing to bet Darkseid's stronger than Superboy Prime.

There was, but it didn't go at all like that. In fact, at one point, Darkseid slaughtered an army of Green Lanterns.... by dressing in yellow.

Now that darkseid has the AL equation, maybe...but no recent showing of darkseid has shown that'd he'd even come CLOSE to matching SBP. Sure in theory he should be more powerful cuz his creator thought of him that way, but his showings have made that very unlikely.

Adam C

08-23-2008, 08:59 PM

I think that there's never been anything approaching a consistent hierarchy of power among the cosmic beings of the DCU, Darkseid being a prime example.

the4thpip

08-24-2008, 05:55 AM

They can beat Darkseid bei distracting him with coffee. We learned in Sovereign Seven that Darkseid loves coffee.

Magneto Rocks

08-24-2008, 06:19 AM

If your talking about the current Darkseid I still say the Guardians can take him if they cut loose on him. Krona would teach him a lesson.

Again, if Superboy Prime can kill a Guardian, Darkseid sure as Hell can.

Now that darkseid has the AL equation, maybe...but no recent showing of darkseid has shown that'd he'd even come CLOSE to matching SBP. Sure in theory he should be more powerful cuz his creator thought of him that way, but his showings have made that very unlikely.

Except those showings have now been retconned, and Grant Morrison's making Superman what Kirby intended- a God, who's on a level Superman can't even come close to comprehending. This is a new Darkseid who makes reality sick by simply existing in it, and (hopefully) whose Omega Effect has been restored to what it was meant to be- "The end — the total wipe-out!"

Dark Master

08-24-2008, 07:39 AM

You don't know what Morrison's doing yet, your making an assumption, so far FC Darkseid hasn't done anything to show him being more powerful then SBP and certianly not moreso then a Guardian.

Also as I have stated and you know very well, there is a difference between a normal Guardian and one who is not holding anything back.

You obviously like the character but don't let that over ride facts.

Magneto Rocks

08-24-2008, 07:49 AM

You don't know what Morrison's doing yet, your making an assumption, so far FC Darkseid hasn't done anything to show him being more powerful then SBP and certianly not moreso then a Guardian.

Well, unless the solicit lies, I do know that Darkseid's existence causes reality to "sicken and bleed". Let's look at some Morrison quotes-

"Look at the threat created by one Galactus appearance on Earth and imagine what would happen if an entire pantheon of these guys showed up, all actively evil. Imagine the scale and the power of just one creature capable of inspiring entire religions, then add more, each more cruel, perverse or demonic than the last. "

So there he's saying that Darkseid- who, obviously, is the worst of all, is on a different level to GALACTUS, who he's equating with each of the Evil Gods- the likes of Granny Goodness or Desaad or whoever, who Darkseid can destroy with a thought.

"The story of the DC universe facing its apocalypse and only Darkseid could cut it as the main villain."- would certainly seem to imply Darkseid's on a totally different level to past villains like Prime.

Oh, and of course, my personal favourite- " Darkseid, who has always been DC's greatest villain,"

So yeah, maybe I am making an assumption, but I have a feeling the Darkseid we're seeing in this story is the kind who would laugh off Superboy Prime in half a second. Darkseid's power isn't in raw physical might- he doesn't need to engage in a fist fight, he has the Omega Effect which can wipe out *anything*, he has the ALE which can control anyone's mind. There's no reason he needs to lower himself to that.

Also as I have stated and you know very well, there is a difference between a normal Guardian and one who is not holding anything back.

You obviously like the character but don't let that over ride facts.

I'm not. I'm simply pointing out that Darkseid's power level has varied wildly throughout the ages, but I am absolutely certain that the Darkseid we see in Final Crisis could crush the Guardians like bugs. Particularly with the ALE, that's really just the final straw- willpower has absolutely nothing to do with it, if the Guardians were exposed to the ALE, Darkseid would control their every thought.

Dark Master

08-24-2008, 08:02 AM

Your making allot of assumptions there.

1) Even if Darkseid is making reality sick, it doesn't seem to be making the people in the reality sick. So that effect doesn't seem to be anything that would help him against the Guardians going full out.

2) Morrison could just be saying that he thinks Darkseid is the best character with which to write the story, he never said that Darkseid WAS more powerful then SBP. Darkseid is a character you associate more with an Apocalypse because of where he comes from, that could be all Morrison meant. And no he's not saying that Darkseid's power is the same as Galactus. For all we know he could've simply meant that they are both beings capable of destroying planets. Twisting words is not a good way to prove your side.

And how do you know that the ALE can effect the Guardians? They have an incredible force of mind and force of will, two things that are pretty good at resisting mind control. And looking at the story obviously people on earth are able to resist it as well.

And no you can not be absolutely certain at all without proof on panel. Use facts in your argument, not what you would like to see or ambigous statements that can be read both ways.

Magneto Rocks

08-24-2008, 08:24 AM

Your making allot of assumptions there.

1) Even if Darkseid is making reality sick, it doesn't seem to be making the people in the reality sick. So that effect doesn't seem to be anything that would help him against the Guardians going full out.

Guess we'll have to wait and see what he means by making reality sick, won't we?

2) Morrison could just be saying that he thinks Darkseid is the best character with which to write the story, he never said that Darkseid WAS more powerful then SBP. Darkseid is a character you associate more with an Apocalypse because of where he comes from, that could be all Morrison meant.

[quote]And no he's not saying that Darkseid's power is the same as Galactus.

Yes, he is, but I quoted the wrong part- here you go- "So that was the first basic idea behind 'Final Crisis.' What would happen if 10 beings with the powers of a Galactus turned up". So yes, that's pretty much exactly what he's saying- the same level as Galactus.

And how do you know that the ALE can effect the Guardians? They have an incredible force of mind and force of will, two things that are pretty good at resisting mind control. And looking at the story obviously people on earth are able to resist it as well.

We haven't seen anyone on Earth resist it actually, and they won't. Allow me to quote to you a statement (Which isn't even remotely ambiguous) from another Morrison comic made about Shilo Norman- "Unique among all living beings- immune to the Anti-Life Equation!" Obviously, some heroes will escape hearing it, but you cannot resist it. Shilo Norman is the only living being who can resist it, that is stated as absolute fact. Force of mind and force of will are useless if Morrison's going with the ALE as outlined by Kirby. It's not mind control, it is the eradication of free will, it is absolute control over everything that moves. The reason Darkseid could never find it under Kirby is because if he did, that is the end of everything. We've seen Anti-Life corrupt Ms Marvel and Wonder Woman already- you think they lack force of mind or force of will?

And no you can not be absolutely certain at all without proof on panel. Use facts in your argument, not what you would like to see or ambigous statements that can be read both ways.

I don't see how "Beings with the power of Galactus" is ambiguous, nor saying that Darkseid is the greatest villain in the DCU- but it's fruitless for us to argue like this when we haven't seen anything close the Dark Gods being unleashed let. We know that they can screw with Alpha Lanterns without the Guardians noticing and eat their minds... and that was in their weakened forms. Let's see what comes next. Tell you what- let's suspend this argument and then you and I will resume it again around Final Crisis #6, when we've truly seen what the Evil Gods can do. That sound good to you?

Dark Master

08-24-2008, 08:34 AM

Okay even if this Darkseid is on the same level as Galactus, Krona smacked Big G around easily. So that still doesn't help your case.

And SBP can smack around the Anti-Monitor, who can wipe out whole realities. Darkseid is no trouble for him.

"Greatest" can mean many different things. He could just be his favorite character overall. And also this is just in Morrison's opinion. Look at the Green Lantern Rings, how many times in the comics have they been called "The most powerful weapons in the universe", now does that make them unstoppable?

And no they don't lack force of will or mind, but they do not have it on the levels that The Gaurdians do. And Mary Marvel was already corrupt.

XPac

08-24-2008, 08:44 AM

Hmmm... maybe it's just because I'm more a marvel guy, but I always felt marvel had a clearer more defined cosmic power heirarchy in regards to who is more powerful than whom.

I thought the Spectre for example was more powerful than most, but he's jobbed ot Parallax and the 5D imps. And the guardians state they're more powerful than he is. It's really hard to guage them sometimes.

Dark Master

08-24-2008, 08:45 AM

That's why the rules for VS fights say you have to go with on panel proof.

Magneto Rocks

08-24-2008, 08:46 AM

...Okay, apparantly you *do* want to argue now.

Okay even if this Darkseid is on the same level as Galactus, Krona smacked Big G around easily. So that still doesn't help your case.

Actually, he specifically notes that ALL the Dark Gods have the power of Galactus. And Darkseid can kill and resurrect any of them at will. That kind of implies he's on another level. (It may also be worth noting that both Ganthet and Highfather, another New God, were equals in the Quintessence.)

And SBP can smack around the Anti-Monitor, who can wipe out whole realities. Darkseid is no trouble for him.

Oh please, that's not even close to accurate. Superboy Prime can NOT smack around the Anti-Monitor on any level, or he would have done so in the first Crisis- he's not even close. What he did in Sinestro Corps War was attack an INCREDIBLY weakened Anti-Monitor who had already been at well below full power, had a ridiculously powerful moon-like object detonated on him, had his armour destroyed and been attacked en masse by the Guardians you have been trumpeting so much. And still Prime couldn't kill him. So again, not even close to "smacking around the Anti-Monitor". Hell, Prime was basically on an equal level with Monarch, who was powered up by a single rogue Monitor. (And these Monitors are far below the original.)

"Greatest" can mean many different things. He could just be his favorite character overall. And also this is just in Morrison's opinion. Look at the Green Lantern Rings, how many times in the comics have they been called "The most powerful weapons in the universe", now does that make them unstoppable?

Fair enough, but Morrison's opinion matters a great deal when he's writing an apocalyptic story about him. You're judging based on what little of Darkseid we've seen in Final Crisis, which is absolutely miniscule and has been the much-weakened Darkseid.

And no they don't lack force of will or mind, but they do not have it on the levels that The Gaurdians do. And Mary Marvel was already corrupt.

Right... thanks to Darkseid, who was instrumental in corrupting her in "Countdown". And force of will and force of mind don't matter. The Anti-Life Equation isn't just another brainwashing tool, it is the eradication of Free Will, and you completely ignored that it is stated as fact that only Shilo Norman is immune to it. Plus this particular aspect of the debate will be resolved rather handily by Final Crisis #4 so why bother getting into a tizzy about it now? We disagree, we each have things backing us up, but the remainder of "Final Crisis" will resolve our dispute anyway so let's wait for it to come out and THEN launch into the arguments about how right or wrong it was.

Dark Master

08-24-2008, 09:01 AM

...Okay, apparantly you *do* want to argue now.
You mean as opposed to your idea? "Here I will post my opinion and then we won't talk about it anymore. Okay?"

Actually, he specifically notes that ALL the Dark Gods have the power of Galactus. And Darkseid can kill and resurrect any of them at will. That kind of implies he's on another level. (It may also be worth noting that both Ganthet and Highfather, another New God, were equals in the Quintessence.)
No it does not imply anything, all he said was that he was on the same powerlevel as Galactus and Krona has shown on panel that he is much stronger then that. And where does it say that Ganthet was equal to Highfather? Who by the way was also equal to Darkseid, so even if it's true it doesn't help you out much. Also as I said many many times, there is a sharp difference in a Guardian and one who is not holding their power back at all.

Oh please, that's not even close to accurate. Superboy Prime can NOT smack around the Anti-Monitor on any level, or he would have done so in the first Crisis- he's not even close. What he did in Sinestro Corps War was attack an INCREDIBLY weakened Anti-Monitor who had already been at well below full power, had a ridiculously powerful moon-like object detonated on him, had his armour destroyed and been attacked en masse by the Guardians you have been trumpeting so much. And still Prime couldn't kill him. So again, not even close to "smacking around the Anti-Monitor". Hell, Prime was basically on an equal level with Monarch, who was powered up by a single rogue Monitor. (And these Monitors are far below the original.)

Prime wasn't trying to kill Anti-Montor, he was just effectively telling him to get lost by swatting him like a fly. And SBP's power level has grown since COIE.

And he did smack him around in SCW, it's on panel fact.

And Monarch is powered by his access to the Quantum Field and the other Captain Atom's he absorbed. And there is no proof that he and SBP were equals. The fight ended before anything could be determined when his armor was breached.

Fair enough, but Morrison's opinion matters a great deal when he's writing an apocalyptic story about him. You're judging based on what little of Darkseid we've seen in Final Crisis, which is absolutely miniscule and has been the much-weakened Darkseid.
Yes but you are interpreting Morrison's opinion to suit your view, I have explained how they can be looked at another way.

Right... thanks to Darkseid, who was instrumental in corrupting her in "Countdown". And force of will and force of mind don't matter. The Anti-Life Equation isn't just another brainwashing tool, it is the eradication of Free Will, and you completely ignored that it is stated as fact that only Shilo Norman is immune to it. Plus this particular aspect of the debate will be resolved rather handily by Final Crisis #4 so why bother getting into a tizzy about it now? We disagree, we each have things backing us up, but the remainder of "Final Crisis" will resolve our dispute anyway so let's wait for it to come out and THEN launch into the arguments about how right or wrong it was.

Actually Eclipso and Black Adam's power did most of the work in corrupting her,

And who knows whether the Guardians are considered to be the same as other beings in the Galaxy?

You need to read the rules on VS fights, On panel proof is what is accepted. Otherwise Spider-man can whip around Firelord anytime he wants.

And if you really wanted to hold of this debate until FC #4 then why are you still trying to continue the debate?

Samuraixsithlord

08-24-2008, 12:25 PM

Again, if Superboy Prime can kill a Guardian, Darkseid sure as Hell can.

But Prime didn't kill that Guardian, he sacrificed himself to take out Prime. Another Guadian did the same thing with Doomsday

Samuraixsithlord

08-24-2008, 12:29 PM

So yeah, maybe I am making an assumption, but I have a feeling the Darkseid we're seeing in this story is the kind who would laugh off Superboy Prime in half a second. Darkseid's power isn't in raw physical might- he doesn't need to engage in a fist fight, he has the Omega Effect which can wipe out *anything*, he has the ALE which can control anyone's mind. There's no reason he needs to lower himself to that.

I always picture Darkseid as a behind the scenes type of villian. DCAU Darkseid was a good example of this, he never got his hands dirty until the series finale of Superman.

While i'm sure he's physically very powerful, thats not what makes him so dangerous

Samuraixsithlord

08-24-2008, 12:32 PM

Yes, he is, but I quoted the wrong part- here you go- "So that was the first basic idea behind 'Final Crisis.' What would happen if 10 beings with the powers of a Galactus turned up". So yes, that's pretty much exactly what he's saying- the same level as Galactus.

He's not saying same level as Galactus, he's saying same powers of Galactus. He could be saying that the Dark Gods have the power to wield cosmic energy, or that they need to feed of of life energy to survive.

Samuraixsithlord

08-24-2008, 12:34 PM

I thought the Spectre for example was more powerful than most, but he's jobbed ot Parallax and the 5D imps. And the guardians state they're more powerful than he is. It's really hard to guage them sometimes.

Spectre is as powerful as the Almighty wants him to be in his pursuit of vengeance. Plus i think it also depends on the willpower of the host

XPac

08-24-2008, 04:52 PM

Spectre is as powerful as the Almighty wants him to be in his pursuit of vengeance. Plus i think it also depends on the willpower of the host

Yet strangely enough the Almighty rarely makes him powerful enough to actually beat the cosmic being he's sent to fight.

I really don't think the Almighty likes Spectre very much.

Paul McEnery

08-24-2008, 05:50 PM

Yet strangely enough the Almighty rarely makes him powerful enough to actually beat the cosmic being he's sent to fight.

I really don't think the Almighty likes Spectre very much.

He's like John from Thunderbirds. "We've got a real important job for you... in outer space."

Samuraixsithlord

08-24-2008, 05:55 PM

Dark Master

08-24-2008, 05:58 PM

I really don't think the Almighty likes Spectre very much.

He makes him run around in a green cape and underwear. I think that speaks for itself.

dotdotdot

08-24-2008, 06:00 PM

this dumb argument is going to be solved in future issues so i dont see the point
darkseid is going to be presented closer to the way he was originally intended, and even worse. the idea that someone has a problem with this and that they are clinging to stories where superman has punched him in the face or something ridiculous just boggles my mind. the best thing to look at at this point is rock of ages, where it took the atom entering darkseids brain through the eye via light waves......and even then it seems we are going to be told that these instances happened to avatars, bodily forms that the gods took. if they aren't from the multiverse (apokolips isn't earth 32 or anything right?) and are from another level of reality, then yes, it has always made total sense that as gods they take bodily forms down here in the dcu and are in fact much more than we've been able to see.
so i really don't see the problem with this argument about power levels. it should be obvious that the actual god, darkseid, is way up there with anyone in the quintessence and far beyond dcu superheroes.