Whatever Happened To Subplots At Marvel?

[marvell2100]

Marvel was well known for having great subplots in their stories. There would be hints in stories that would develop over months. Now everything moves from story arc to story arc with the occassional "wind down" issue and then a crossover/tie-in. They even number everything for you so that you know when the arc ends. Is this what writing comics is all about now or am I overstating things?

[Guru_Pitka]

Great question. I've wondered the same thing.

They probably went the same place supporting casts did.

Victims of late 90s minimalist write-for-the-trade storytelling.

[XPac]

Marvel was well known for having great subplots in their stories. There would be hints in stories that would develop over months. Now everything moves from story arc to story arc with the occassional "wind down" issue and then a crossover/tie-in. They even number everything for you so that you know when the arc ends. Is this what writing comics is all about now or am I overstating things?

We still see them now and then.

The whole Skrull conspiracy was a subplot in Bendis books for years before it eventually moved to the forefront in Secret Invasion.

Dan Slott had some sort of Reckoning War subplot going on in She-Hulk, which I assume we'll get to eventually.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Marvel was well known for having great subplots in their stories. There would be hints in stories that would develop over months. Now everything moves from story arc to story arc with the occassional "wind down" issue and then a crossover/tie-in. They even number everything for you so that you know when the arc ends. Is this what writing comics is all about now or am I overstating things?

As a writer that is used to writing that way, I've wondered that as well.

But then again, I see that ASM is doing something like that, as are the Peter David books.

[Black Manta]

Writers don't stay with books long enough for things like this. Remember when the Avengers kept disappearring for a couple years? They resolved it with the Collector.

[Cthulhudrew]

Subplots don't work too well in Trade Paperbacks. Not unless you've got one creator on the title for a really extended period of time (such as with the Vertigo titles over at DC, for example). Darn shame, too.

I don't think that's the only reason, but it does factor into things. I remember PAD talking about how (in his first X-Factor run back in the day) he got continually frustrated with the innumerable X-Book crossovers that were running, and was actually told to stop having so many subplots going on because they screwed up the crossovers (ie, readers picking up the crossovers but not the individual book on a regular basis would be confused as to why the subplot wasn't played out over the course of the crossover).

There's all kinds of stupid reasons like that. Mostly, though, I'd say it's because a lot of writers nowadays don't seem to write with that level of complexity and plotting.

[Cthulhudrew]

Double post.

[Magneto Rocks]

Love it or hate it, ASM is sated with them right now- the Mayoral election with Lily's dad, Menace's identity and ties to Crowne, Jackpot's identity, Mister Negative's scheming, and that's just off the top of my head.

Thor has one or two built in of course- as well as the main plot with Loki we still have Sif's plight, Doom's schemes, what happened to the Evil Asgardians like Enchantress...

Fantastic Four under Millar/Hitch has been absolutely teeming with them- Valeria, the Nanny, Ben's girlfriend, Nu-World, the destruction of Earth (Quite a subplot!), Sue's new team- and it had the Alyssa/Reed thing going there as well, plus in the first arc Johnny's relationship with Psionics was a subplot, now a main plot....

The Avengers books had the Skrull subplot ("Something's rotten in SHIELD!") going since issue one.... The new Uncanny X-Men seems to have quite a few- Magneto and the High Evolutionary, the clash between Scott's way and the Professor's, the wierd film director and the Dreaming Celestial, etc.

I'm sure there's more if I think enough.

[Greg Anderson]

X-Factor has.

[RedRonin]

The Avengers titles have had them.

X-Factor has had them.

Thor has them.

Fantastic Four has them.

Spider-Man has them.

Captain America has them.

Daredevil has them.

Captain Britain and MI 13 has them.

Ghost Rider has them.

Punisher War Journal has them.

Uncanny X-Men has them.

Subplots haven't really gone anywhere.

[marvell2100]

Subplots don't work too well in Trade Paperbacks. Not unless you've got one creator on the title for a really extended period of time (such as with the Vertigo titles over at DC, for example). Darn shame, too.

I don't think that's the only reason, but it does factor into things. I remember PAD talking about how (in his first X-Factor run back in the day) he got continually frustrated with the innumerable X-Book crossovers that were running, and was actually told to stop having so many subplots going on because they screwed up the crossovers (ie, readers picking up the crossovers but not the individual book on a regular basis would be confused as to why the subplot wasn't played out over the course of the crossover).

There's all kinds of stupid reasons like that. Mostly, though, I'd say it's because a lot of writers nowadays don't seem to write with that level of complexity and plotting.

And that is what I'm talking about: complexity in storytelling. Being able to weave storylines in and out cohesively and to bring it all to a solid conclusion.

[marvell2100]

The Avengers titles have had them.

X-Factor has had them.

Thor has them.

Fantastic Four has them.

Spider-Man has them.

Captain America has them.

Daredevil has them.

Captain Britain and MI 13 has them.

Ghost Rider has them.

Punisher War Journal has them.

Uncanny X-Men has them.

Subplots haven't really gone anywhere.

Of the books that you mentioned I would say that Captain America and The New Avengers when they first began are the ones with good subplots. They are the ones that left you wondering "What's going on?" in a good way and kept you coming back. The stories are more woven together. The others are basically "story arc A leads to story arc B leads to story arc C." And then when they number them, it takes away all the anticipation because you already know that the story ends in 4,5 or 6 issues. No build up. No drama. It all fits into neat little packages.

[RedRonin]

Of the books that you mentioned I would say that Captain America and The New Avengers when they first began are the ones with good subplots. They are the ones that left you wondering "What's going on?" in a good way and kept you coming back. The stories are more woven together. The others are basically "story arc A leads to story arc B leads to story arc C." And then when they number them, it takes away all the anticipation because you already know that the story ends in 4,5 or 6 issues. No build up. No drama. It all fits into neat little packages.

Not for all of them. Punisher War Journal is using plots from it's earliest issues in the current arc. Uncanny X-Men launched several subplots in 500. As Magneto Rocks mentioned all the FF ones. Ghost Rider has Danny Ketch and Zadkiel subplots running. I forgot to mention Iron Fist which still has the 8th hidden city and Immortal Weapons on earth subplots. There are more than a few in ASM. Captain America still has several subplots running. There's plenty of plots still dangling in the Initiative.

So despite knowing the set number of issues for an arc, subplots haven't been abandoned.

[Jmacq1]

Subplots really have become something of a lost art, but not completely. When a writer knows they're in for a long haul on a series (Bendis on Avengers, Brubaker on Captain America, JMS on Spidey) you start to see them cropping up. It's when titles go through a rapid turnover of creators that are limited to 6 or 12 issue arcs that the subplots start falling by the wayside.

But really, I think when everyone (at least everyone over the age of 25 or so) thinks of "subplots" they tend to think of the Claremont subplot threads that ran through his 17 year run on X-Men. Stuff that would build up for literally years in the background before spilling over into a "main plot." Unfortunately, today's comic market tends to make a run like that impossible. Even on titles that are successful, it's inevitable that the publisher wants to "freshen things up" and try to snare new readers (or recapture old ones that have left) with a new creative team (and usually a "bold new direction" along with it).

Titles that have the same writer for more than a year or so are the exception these days, not the norm, in other words.

[Bamf25]

Writer turnover, pure and simple.

[Billy Parker]

Avengers: EVERYTHING by Brian Michael Bendis, New, Mighty, Secret War, Dissassembled, House of M, Illuminati. Yaaaaah, if you haven't read this, don't bitch.

Plus Amazing Spider-Man has been pulling subplots for 30 issues now.

[Drdmx]

Gotta make sure you're looking at the big picture. Sub-plots and character development probably got pushed to the way-side a little while SI is taking place. I've kind of laid off picking up some titles that I normally would while the event is going on.

For instance - I thought during World War Hulk, there was some great build-up to a dynamic confrontation between Reed Richards and Amadeus Cho, but for some reason, Pak hasn't really even hinted at a comeback to this. Instead, since there's been a generally warm reception to Hercules lore and current events in the Incredible Herc book, it seems that most; if not all of the character development has gone Hercs way.

Then again, now that I'm thinking about this, considering what's going on with Reed in SI, Paks probably more than justified in holding off with this.The point stands however... considering almost everyone is involved in Secret Invasion, writers have probably more or less been asked to only focus on the event itself.

[marvell2100]

Gotta make sure you're looking at the big picture. Sub-plots and character development probably got pushed to the way-side a little while SI is taking place. I've kind of laid off picking up some titles that I normally would while the event is going on.

For instance - I thought during World War Hulk, there was some great build-up to a dynamic confrontation between Reed Richards and Amadeus Cho, but for some reason, Pak hasn't really even hinted at a comeback to this. Instead, since there's been a generally warm reception to Hercules lore and current events in the Incredible Herc book, it seems that most; if not all of the character development has gone Hercs way.

Then again, now that I'm thinking about this, considering what's going on with Reed in SI, Paks probably more than justified in holding off with this.The point stands however... considering almost everyone is involved in Secret Invasion, writers have probably more or less been asked to only focus on the event itself.

And therein lies part of the problem. How can you have a chance to develop multiple storylines when you have to worry about crossovers and tie-ins once maybe twice a year. The "Dark Phoenix Saga" was building for over 30 issues. The John Walker as Cap story went for nearly 20 issues. The "Korvac Saga"? 11 issues. Look at what's going on in Captain America right now. You don't see much of that anymore.

[Frodo-X]

Captain America has plenty of them.

Thor seems like it's got some planned, too.

I do think a large part of it is that writers don't want to do them because of the rapid turnaround on most books. Titles like Wolverine would be impossible to have one, because for the last few years the most a single writer does is an arc before being bumped for a new guy.

[drwho]

Subplots would not make much sense for the trades.

[XPac]

And therein lies part of the problem. How can you have a chance to develop multiple storylines when you have to worry about crossovers and tie-ins once maybe twice a year. The "Dark Phoenix Saga" was building for over 30 issues. The John Walker as Cap story went for nearly 20 issues. The "Korvac Saga"? 11 issues. Look at what's going on in Captain America right now. You don't see much of that anymore.

In a lot of books these days though, cross over events aren't necessarily a problem.

Plenty of books are NOT tying into SI. They're getting their own tie in minis seperate from the on-going titles. That's why we have SI: Fantastic Four while Millar is doing his own thing, for example.

I think tie-ins these days are largely optional. And plenty of the lesser selling titles quite frankly probably WANT to tie in to the events since they often create a bump in sales.

[RolandJP]

Subplots, Thought Balloons, and Supporting characters--Chris Claremont, PAD, and a few others are the only ones that still use them. Soon they will be as quaint as secret identities.

[DDM]

Marvel was well known for having great subplots in their stories. There would be hints in stories that would develop over months. Now everything moves from story arc to story arc with the occassional "wind down" issue and then a crossover/tie-in. They even number everything for you so that you know when the arc ends. Is this what writing comics is all about now or am I overstating things?

Unfortunately, most subplots have been effectively done away since editors frequently change writers on books every 2-4 years on any given book; furthermore, this is compounded when the editors also force the writers to write for trade paperback (TPB).

[EuropaBambaataa]

Of the books that you mentioned I would say that Captain America and The New Avengers when they first began are the ones with good subplots. They are the ones that left you wondering "What's going on?" in a good way and kept you coming back. The stories are more woven together. The others are basically "story arc A leads to story arc B leads to story arc C." And then when they number them, it takes away all the anticipation because you already know that the story ends in 4,5 or 6 issues. No build up. No drama. It all fits into neat little packages.

Yes on Cap. No on New Avengers. The first issue arc doesn't feel like he knew at the time he want to do a Skrull invasion. It just reads like another takeover of S.H.I.E.L.D. by an outside force. Nor do I believe at the time Spider-Woman was already Veranke. I think Bendis came up with the thought transfer blood ceremony to justify why Jessica Drew and Henry Pym were acting so in character in New and Mighty.

[marvell2100]

Subplots, Thought Balloons, and Supporting characters--Chris Claremont, PAD, and a few others are the only ones that still use them. Soon they will be as quaint as secret identities.

No kidding!