The true Marvel Civil War...

[Sion]

... is the pro-BND/anti-BND near-dichotomy (too-many-hyphens?) in the message boards nowadays.

Really, this is almost as annoying as the conservative right x liberal left politics in the U.S.
Every issue which is a shade of gray is broken into its black and white components.

Well, I guess to give this thread a purpose, let's try the following. If you a pro-BND, what are 3 things in BND you don't like? And if you are an anti-BND, what are 3 things you do like? Oh, and editorial things do not count (such as writers/artist or number of issues a month). Let's focus purely on plot devices.

So, I consider myself an anti-BND guy (although I'm more towards the middle ground on most issues). Here are 3 things I like as a result of BND:

(1) Peter getting his secret identity back. I was against the reveal, I think it works well for Matt Murdock, but not for someone like Peter. Besides, it felt rushed and executed rather poorly (For the record, I DID like the fact that Daredevil, Aunt May, MJ, and some other heroes knew Peter's identity...).

(2) Mr. Negative. I think that guy has potential.

(3) Spider-Man's reputation being attacked again... too bad JJJ is not the culprit. :(

[Karl Cook]

... is the pro-BND/anti-BND near-dichotomy (too-many-hyphens?) in the message boards nowadays.

Really, this is almost as annoying as the conservative right x liberal left politics in the U.S.
Every issue which is a shade of gray is broken into its black and white components.

Well, I guess to give this thread a purpose, let's try the following. If you a pro-BND, what are 3 things in BND you don't like? And if you are an anti-BND, what are 3 things you do like? Oh, and editorial things do not count (such as writers/artist or number of issues a month). Let's focus purely on plot devices.

So, I consider myself an anti-BND guy (although I'm more towards the middle ground on most issues). Here are 3 things I like as a result of BND:

(1) Peter getting his secret identity back. I was against the reveal, I think it works well for Matt Murdock, but not for someone like Peter. Besides, it felt rushed and executed rather poorly (For the record, I DID like the fact that Daredevil, Aunt May, MJ, and some other heroes knew Peter's identity...).

(2) Mr. Negative. I think that guy has potential.

(3) Spider-Man's reputation being attacked again... too bad JJJ is not the culprit. :(

I'm apathetic towards BND but here's what I LIKE about BND:

(1) Zeb Wells. The only Brain Trust member who seems to get Spidey in my opinion.

(2) Mr Negative. If we can't have Hobgoblin, Kingpin or Tombstone then he'll do...

(3) The fact that BND is now saving me £12 a month!

[oldschool]

Lots of truth in your post Sion and a fair challenge; I'm game!!

DON"T LIKE:

1) Marvel taking it's sweet time in clearing up the huge gap between OMD and BND.

2) Ditto for the sudden resurrection of Harry and the lack of explanation for what did and did not happen in this new StatusQuo as a result of his never being married to MJ. (maybe 1 and 2 are related, I am not sure)

3) MJ was jettisoned to have Peter be single again but , so far, he has not dated anyone or even flirted and we are 7 months and 21 issues in.

[Sion]

3) MJ was jettisoned to have Peter be single again but , so far, he has not dated anyone or even flirted and we are 7 months and 21 issues in.

Sadly, yet again, Peter and I have a lot in common. :tongue:

[Cyclopsj316]

... is the pro-BND/anti-BND near-dichotomy (too-many-hyphens?) in the message boards nowadays.

Really, this is almost as annoying as the conservative right x liberal left politics in the U.S.



yep. cant argue that.

im anti, so here goes.

1) Paperdoll
2) Mr Negative
3) return of the secret identity.

[AftComet]

1.) Peter is still over 30 and he is still a loser. At that age he should be settled down. If not with MJ, then someone else.

2.) OMD/BND was executed in the worst way possible. There are so many holes that need filling. Like "Harry was in Europe". WTF? Where's Gwen then?

3.) They made Peter too much of a loser. It's okay being unlucky, but right now it's ridiculous.

[AftComet]

Sadly, yet again, Peter and I have a lot in common. :tongue:

A guess we're all a bunch of losers lol. It's funny when Spiderman is the Superhero most people can relate to. Says a lot lol.

[DeadXMan]

I say w split the spidey thread in three

a pro-sub thread and a anti-sub thread and a neutral thread (a no man's land if you will)

and we all agree to stay out of the other, and not start anything in the neutral thread under punishment of one month banning.

[Sion]

I say w split the spidey thread in three

a pro-sub thread and a anti-sub thread and a neutral thread (a no man's land if you will)

and we all agree to stay out of the other, and not start anything in the neutral thread under punishment of one month banning.

But... but... but... divided we fall, right?

The Union must stay together to stay strong! :evilangry:

[DeadXMan]

consider it a picket line, my brother.

plus I'm sure the thread drifts would fall significantly

[Mister Mets]

DON'T LIKE

1) Bob Gale's storytelling.
2) Too many mysteries with limited momentum.
3) The continuity/ consistency problems (IE- how the "gap" relates to New Avengers)

[Badfish40oz]

I'll be completely honest, as cliche as the arguments are now:

- Retconned Spider-Man
- No explanation for OMD
- Its magic, I don't have to have a 3rd reason

[Matt Linton]

Pro-BND.

3 things I dislike:

1) Lack of dating. Yes, I get that they wanted to establish the new status quo, but a few dates here or there wouldn't hurt.

2) Overall pacing. While I think most of the stories have been excellent, the pacing of the subplots, and the use of some of the supporting cast between creators hasn't gone as smoothly as I'd like.

3) Peter the unemployable. I think they pulled the trigger a bit too quickly on the DB job, and in doing so they've made Betty, Robbie, and Dexter Bennet a bit too unimportant. Rather than firing Peter, I think it would have been better if Bennet simply stopped buying Spidey photos from him and just sent him on boring, low-paying assignments. He'd be in the dog house at work, still have tension with Vin because he's not making the kind of money he's used to, and he'd still be out there trying to get back in Bennet's good graces.

[marvell2100]

Let's get the guy a job and then work on a date. Hey, maybe Pete should try an online dating service. It would be ironic if he wound up dating one of his former girlfriends. I won't say which one.

[Sean Walsh]

I'm somewhat torn on the BND thing.

First off, I was a survivor (and overall accepting) of the Clone Saga era, so I've seen my share of questionable Spidey stuff.

I like the idea of BND, and the creative energy going into it sounds very nice. Got some great writers - Slott, Wells, Guggenheim - and artists - Jimenez, Kitson, McKone.

.....I just really hate the premise it's set upon.

There are times when I want to accept that they undid the marriage and hit the reset button, because the stories sound neat, but........urgh......SPIDER-MAN SHOULD NEVER MAKE A *#&$%^ING DEAL WITH THE *#&$%^ING DEVIL!!!!!!

If Marvel hadn't alienated me with CIVIL WAR, I think I might care a little less about certain elements that keep me away from BND and Spider-Man as a whole.

But Quesada has worn on me greatly and turned me off to a lot of Marvel (I embrace the cosmic stuff because it's fun and good, and maybe also because Q's not as big a fan of it :tongue: ). And considering this was his "pet project," I dislike it a bit more almost on just that fact.

That said: I read AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE this weekend (the first 2 hardcovers, finally found 'em cheap at a comic show). Now I care NOTHING for the SHRA premise that this series is very much knee-deep in.......but it was still a fun comic and I'm gonna keep reading; because Slott's a great writer and I love the obscurity and intricateness of Marvel contuinuity.

So maybe someday I'll be able to reconcile what's gone on with Spidey and read his comics post-OMD and enjoy it, but for now I'm not really a fan at all of, and will stay away from, what they had to do to get to a brand new day...

[JamesOliva]

I don't consider myself Pro or Anti. I'm just pro good Spider-Man stories. I guess I would be in DeadXMan's "no-man's-land."

So here's 3 things I like:

1) Return of the (a) supporting cast to Amazing Spider-Man.
2) Vin Gonzalez. I like cop characters in books. I think he's the most interesting character in the series right now.
3) Return of the secret identity. Peter Parker as a public superhero just strays to far from his roots.

3 things I don't like.

1) Peter lost his job way to early. The supporting cast that I like (The folks at the Bugle) are gone again. Instead replaced with...I guess Carlie and Lily...we haven't seen them in awhile, which leads me to...

2) Pacing problems. Too many mysteries, to the point where I don't care about them anymore. I don't care who Jackpot/Menace and the Spider-Tracer character are anymore because they haven't really had a significant enough impact on the book. Too many supprting characters being ingored.

3) Lacks the feel of a true "run." The hodge-podge of different artists and writers makes the book seem like Amazing, Sensational, Friendly Nieghborhood are still being published as opposed to one cohesive title. Noth that the stories haven't been entertaining or well told, they just all have a different feeling to them.

[Patrick Hultquist]

I'm anti-BND.

So three things I like -
The return of a solid supporting cast. Why this was not made a priority in the past is beyond me.
And... that's about it.

Sorry. I really liked Peter Parker tackling more adult responsibilities. I was intrigued over the ramifications of his unmasking. I thought him becoming a teacher was a logical progression for his character. I relished the prospect of Aunt May dying through a villain's revenge, as it would mirror losing Uncle Ben, and return the character to his roots in a dramatic fashion.
I'll try to think really hard for two other things I like about BND, but I doubt they'd measure up to what was lost.

[ComicBreak]

I'm pro-BND but I don't like:

1. Marvel makes Peter single but immediately starts trying to hook him up with Carlie. Let the guy play the field for awhile.

2. Peter is made into such a big loser.

3. We were supposed to get new villains but there's been another goblin, another Kraven, and soon another symbiote.

[CyberHubbs]

Let's get the guy a job and then work on a date. Hey, maybe Pete should try an online dating service. It would be ironic if he wound up dating one of his former girlfriends. I won't say which one.

I'd be all for this, but he'd have to end up meeting someone like Titania or Ruby Thursday.

[spiderman_rj]

I'm a....ers.....anti-BND :)
like
a) MJ and peter not married
b) secret identity back
3) spider-man going back to what he was

[yadadaimhollaing]

im pro-bnd

dislikes

1) even characters that knew peters secret identity before he unmasked for civil war have forgotten his identity

2) another goblin themed character. i was kind of so-so on the she kraven but the story worked out nicely. she was shown to be fierce so i can dig it.

3) ill answer later as i think about it more

[ShaggyB]

Im a pro guy so.. here are my dislikes:

(1) People who knew his id before he went public with it should still know. Norman and Venom should still know as it is essential to there character. (with gargain venom im not so certain on that but the symbiote should still know and just choose not to tell scorpion)

(2) Gap of time between OMD and BND. This should be addressed as a follow up tale at the end of every book through the end of the year starting in issue #1.

(3) Harry being back.... this kind of folds into #2..... and dont get me wrong im glad hes back..... BUT he should have been explained in issue number 1 or the final pages of OMD. Its too big a reveal to not tell us how or why he didnt die in spec #200.

That being said all of my issues can be resolved with a bit of story telling... here's looking to slott's next story on the missing time.

[yadadaimhollaing]

That being said all of my issues can be resolved with a bit of story telling... here's looking to slott's next story on the missing time.

this sums up why im not too upset about much. im just being patient and enjoying the stories as they come.

[cpahl2000]

Lots of truth in your post Sion and a fair challenge; I'm game!!

DON"T LIKE:

1) Marvel taking it's sweet time in clearing up the huge gap between OMD and BND.

2) Ditto for the sudden resurrection of Harry and the lack of explanation for what did and did not happen in this new StatusQuo as a result of his never being married to MJ. (maybe 1 and 2 are related, I am not sure)

3) MJ was jettisoned to have Peter be single again but , so far, he has not dated anyone or even flirted and we are 7 months and 21 issues in.



I agree with you. marvel should explain what happened to Harry, explain all other BND´s unexplained things like the day of the marriage, where is Liz and Normie, how May´s house returned from destruction and how spidey is still on New Avengers without any of them know his identity.

Peter not dating is something odd too, maybe it´s a trick from Mephisto and made him impotent

I don´t like he being a loser, without a job and asking money for doing things, he needs a life, a job, or will be his teen years and it´s not Brand New Day.

By the way, I´m anti-BND/OMD

[Leocomix]

I'm pro OMD/BND

I don't like the lack of romance, what's the point of erasing the marriage? After a few hints the first month, there has been zero development with Lily, Carlie or anyone else.

The younger Peter, he should be 29 at the very least

Lack of development of the supporting cast. Apart fromJJJ suffering a stroke and losing the Bugle nothing happens to them, no crisis, no dating, no life of their own. Correction: Robertson quit and just joined Frontline. They don't feel like fleshed-out characters but like cameos. The writers do not seem to have grasped that Spider-Man was great in the 60s and 70s (and 80s) because it was a multi-cast book.

[Just a Shadow]

Things I like about BND? hmm... that's a tough one...

1) Spider-Man's identity is now secret once more (although I too liked it when DD, Aunt May, MJ and a few other heroes knew it).

2) I save over 12 bucks a month now by no longer reading Spider-Man comics :)

[jgiannantoni05]

I'm anti-OMD/BND. Very much. I can't buy SM anymore. Breevort, Wacker, and Quesada are not on my Christmas card list, so to speak.

But what I like about BND:
-organic shooters gone (and the rest of those wacky JMS changes to Spidey's powers)
-brighter colors
-some great artists (but I can't buy a comic on art alone)
-of course Peter having his secret identity (but this was never intended to last anyway)
________
Vaporizor (http://vaporizer.org/)

[stillanerd]

I'll play along. Even though I'm pretty anti-BND, the three things I do like about ASM now are:

1. The artists--from Steve McNiven, to Chris Bacholo, to now the return of John Romita Jr., no one can deny it hasn't looked consistently pretty.

2. The return of the secret identity--One of the hallmarks of Spider-Man has been that Peter having a dual identity made his life more complicated rather than simple, and that it emphasized that, despite having the powers of an arachnid and genuis level intelligence, he was still a regular guy trying to get though his day just like everyone else. The unmasking, although certainly nothing more than a stunt and a means to an end, took a lot of that away, and I'm glad it's been restored. Too bad the way it was solved sucked.

3. The return of the supporting cast--It's certainly true that the new characters really haven't been fleshed out, and I'm still miffed that MJ is all but absent from the comics, but I certainly appreciate that Marvel is making the effort that Peter's life doesn't just consist of MJ, Aunt May, and the New Avengers as it has been for the past couple of years. Having people Peter knew out of costume, who were ordinary people, who were just as important as the eponymous character was one of the big draws to the series, that folks like Jonah, Robbie, Betty, Aunt May, Flash, and MJ grounded Peter's world and showed that it wasn't just being a superhero all the time. So, at least Marvel is moving in the right direction after being so off track. Now, if only some the new characters weren't treated like placeholders or substitutes for older, better characters.

[Magneto Rocks]

I'm Pro-BND, and the things I don't like are:

1- Development of subplots has been stilted- for example, the lawsuit was mentioned in one issue and then never again until the BND special, Jackpot's only really appeared in a single arc, Menace hasn't been as much of a presence as they seem to want him to be- they're taking some steps to rectify this with the Mayoral Race and NWTD, but I still feel much of it has been handld poorly.

2- Some of the new villains (With the exception of Menace and Mr Negative) hasn't been as dynamic or as interesting as I hoped beforehand.

3- Some lack of consistency between different writers- not their styles, but the plot points they're dealing with.

[oldschool]

I must say that some of my "dislike" points have been, if not negated, than certainly quelched by this week's stellar opening to NWTD.

[Kirayoshi]

Anti here. Things I don't like:

1) Peter the loser. Peter was never as screwed up financially as he is in current books. He was never rich, but damn, this is just nuts!
2) The gaping holes in the plot and the promise to address them within the next year. Let's see: we've had over 20 issues at $2.99 each, that means I'd have to spend over $60 after taxes to get this far, and all we've had is Peter spinning his wheels? Short answer, no.
3) The implied promise that this is all we'll get, at least as long as Quesada's EIC. I like the idea of Peter being a responsible adult, one who has achieved some level of balance between being Peter and being Spider-Man. I like the idea that his back during the Lee/Romita Sr. days isn't identical to his life in later issues. Quesada, from what I've read and seen, has not only sent Peter Parker back to Square One, but has forbidden him to move on to Square Two!

Joe Q, maybe you should be editing Archie comics?

[Mister Mets]

Anti here. Things I don't like:

1) Peter the loser. Peter was never as screwed up financially as he is in current books. He was never rich, but damn, this is just nuts!
2) The gaping holes in the plot and the promise to address them within the next year. Let's see: we've had over 20 issues at $2.99 each, that means I'd have to spend over $60 after taxes to get this far, and all we've had is Peter spinning his wheels? Short answer, no.
3) The implied promise that this is all we'll get, at least as long as Quesada's EIC. I like the idea of Peter being a responsible adult, one who has achieved some level of balance between being Peter and being Spider-Man. I like the idea that his back during the Lee/Romita Sr. days isn't identical to his life in later issues. Quesada, from what I've read and seen, has not only sent Peter Parker back to Square One, but has forbidden him to move on to Square Two!

Joe Q, maybe you should be editing Archie comics?You missed the point.

[Red_Knight]

For the record, I was pro-BND and have since become ambivalent. You'll see why... Here we go.:

pro:


The supporting cast. For the first time in years, non-powered people are playing a vital role in Peter's life again, and I'm loving it. I was even in favor of Harry's return. Finally, Peter has his best buddy back! The supporting cast shouldn't have been sidelined in the first place. Without them, Spider-Man is just a book about a guy in a costume.


The new villains. Other than Freak (who's just... bland), I like the new additions. Mr. Negative and Menace have huge potential, and the rest was cool, too. A welcome change after the half-baked new villains we had to suffer through over the last few years! (Remember Captain Power? :rolleyes: )


The new possibilities. I personally hadn't enjoyed 616 Spider-Man in years. I dropped the book shortly after the Clone Saga, when my hopes that Ben Reilly would remain Spidey and turn the ship around were dashed. Spider-Man as a character just seemed to be in a rut at this point. Sadly, nothing I heard over the next ten years intrigued me enough to give it another shot, -- until BND came along.


con:


The premise. I like the new status quo (for the most part), but the fact that it is based on OMD is best ignored. What a horrible way to start a new chapter in the life of Spider-Man.


No one knows Spider-Man's identity anymore. I get what they were trying to do, but the execution was extremely flawed. I totally get why they undid the unmasking. I'm okay with MJ not knowing anymore, too. Heck, I'll even accept Aunt May being in the dark again. But the fact that Venom and even Norman Osborn -- two top-tier villains whose relationship with Spidey was largely defined by their knowledge of his identity -- don't know anymore is ridiculous! I hear they will figure out it again anyways, which makes the whole thing even more pointless. Someone dropped the ball on that one.


The constant slow-burn approach. When I first heard Spider-Man was shifting from arc-based stories to a more "classical" approach, I was thrilled. Unfortunately, it hasn't worked out the way I pictured it. Taking things slow is one thing; dragging them out for months and months is something else entirely, especially now that ASM is coming out three times a month. At this point, I just don't care who Menace is anymore. (Come to think of it, it doesn't seem like Spidey does, either.) When they do reveal it, I'll probably have something to say, but there's no sense of giddy anticipation left.


The stagnation. This is especially hard for me to articulate, since I was really hoping to get into 616 Spidey again, -- but I find myself rapidly losing interest. We have a supporting cast, new villains, new plots, and a slew of new possibilities, --but very little seems to be happening. When reading ASM, I just don't get the feeling that this going anywhere. Which is a shame. I hope things for the better soon, or I may very well end up dropping the book again.