Best x-men graphic novels for adults?

[Sharkie7]

I'm looking for intelligent x-men graphic novels or comics with great, charismatic characters, romance, an intricate and clever plot, good writing/dialogue, and so on..

Just post your favorite x-men stories for adults (as in not aimed at kids) and why you like them please!

Thanks a lot!

[Quinnhop]

Astonishing X-Men's first arc is the perfect summation of what you're looking for.

But, better than that, try to get your hands on Morrison's New X-Men run. Brilliant, fun stuff.

[Sharkie7]

Astonishing X-Men's first arc is the perfect summation of what you're looking for.

But, better than that, try to get your hands on Morrison's New X-Men run. Brilliant, fun stuff.

lol you mean astonishing x-men with "gifted" written at the bottom of the cover? Because that's actually why I started this topic. I was reading it about an hour ago, got about 30 pages in, and I thought to myself I could really enjoy a good x-men comic, but this just isn't good enough. Whedon is a pretty mediocre writer in my opinion. I've tried to get into watching Buffy but he's just not that clever, funny, or talented in my opinion. My issues with Astonishing X-men were that 30ish or however many pages in I was, I sitll didn't know who every character was, or what had happened to Jean I'm guessing (the big tragedy Wolverine and Cyclops were alluding to), and how things kept happening really fast and it didn't make sense. Like Wolverine and Cylclops were about to fight outside and then I turn the page and they're all sitting and talking on top of all these islands (looking like giants) - it turned out they were sitting in the danger room and someone made it look like they were above the earth or whatever. But anyway - how do they go from running straight at each other outdoors to just talking?

Also the "voice over" typed thing that was going on with both the voices of the mutant holding up some meeting place and the doctor talking about the mutant cure in the other place - half the time you can't tell which person is saying what lines because they're both being written over pictures of other things that are happening.

But basically everything jumped around too much and without enough explanation, and there wasn't enough character development or meaning to any of it, and the whole "hey, we should be superheros, guys!" talk cyclops gave was completely ridiculous to me. That part specifically makes me think that this is aimed more towards "all ages" or the younger group. I mean that's what Whedon writes. Buffy, Angel, etc etc, he doesn't write mature, serious, meaningful, intelligent stuff. What I'm looking for is something that goes above and beyond all the typical, childish clichés of comic book writing. I'm looking for something thoughtful and meaningful and original and special.

Or idk, just entertaining. Something that really gets at the core of the X-men characters. The relationships. But also the violence, and the meaning to it all, and the mature themes involved, and on and on. Witty clever dialogue is great, as long as it's original, and actually clever.

But thanks for hte recommendation. Keep em coming please!

Oh also, when Cyclops said 'the fantastic four aren't...' (hated on, or whatever it was), that was also ridiculous. A comic where the x-men start talking about the fantastic four is not something i want to read. I mean why don't they just throw bruce wayne and spiderman into the mix. Maybe they can all team up and kidnap Harry Potter

[Grumpy Fox]

Hum… I don't know if you're trolling with that answer (not that I'd say that Whedon's perfect…), but maybe mainstream super-hero comic-books is just not what you're looking for, especially X-Men.
And I don't mean this as a slur to super-heroes either, really.

[timbox]

Legacy is the thinking man's X-book.

[ReaderX]

Morrison's "New X-Men" was a good title with meaningful story arcs and new villains - Cassy Nova, the rogue Mastermold, etc. Frank Quitely's art is more realistic and less heroic, like something you'd find in an issue of Heavy Metal rather than in a Marvel comic. Soldier X was also pretty good, chronicling the point in Cable's life when his T-O virus went into remission and he was wandering the world, largely in 3rd world countries as he tried to find a way to control his unhindered powers.

[MartinRedmond]

Peter Milligan's X-Force and X-Statix. I think you will like it if you don't mind a high character death count. It didn't receive any hype yet it's very good.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Hi Sharkie7.

From what you're saying I think you might really like Grant Morrison's New X-Men. It happened a fair few years ago now, and it did kind of peter out in the end. But heck, you'd at least find out what DID happen to jean.

It's a more adult take on the x-men. It does kind of wreck a few things for the future, but it is pretty sound.

Aside from that, in more recent times, pick up any of Mike Carey's X-men run, up to the recent crossover. That was a good less traditional X-Men team (With Rogue, Iceman, Cable, Cannonball, Mystique and a captive Sabretooth). It's a shame it ended really because it was a little darker and more interesting.

It was replaced with Mike Carey's X-Men Legacy - which is still good, but Xavier on his own.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Peter Milligan's X-Force and X-Statix. I think you will like it if you don't mind a high character death count. It didn't receive any hype yet it's very good.

It's not really X-Men though, is it? It Milligan doing something different with characters he created for it.

[MartinRedmond]

Morrison's run makes no sense at all. Especially Magneto's grand master plan. All the characters who hog the spotlight are Grant's character, one of those is Grant Morrison himself. His run was okay, but it's not adult or complicated. It's a huge mess with mature themes thrown in. The X-Men cripple some kids for doing exactly what the X-Men are doing and it's supposed to be a huge moral lesson of some such. It's full of plot holes. Stay away! Stay away!

[rZi]

These are the type of X-Men books i look for too.

Astonishing X-Men #1-24 - this is probably my faviroute run in comic books ever.

Grant Morrison's "New X-Men" (not to be confused with the younger mutants book by the same name)

X-Men: God loves man kills

[Siddon]

I actually think that the first six stories from Ultimate X-men would be more your type of story. The dialouge is more realistic, the plotting is better, there isn't that much continuity. Its a reboot to the series done in "film" style where each arc is it's own stand alone type story.

X-tinction Agenda is another more adult story, its a darker story of Genosha which is a South African type city where Mutants are the servant class and the human have complete control.

X-force A New Beginning very good take on the nature of fame and super heroes

Runaways is my gateway comic to anyone, I think its better then Watchmen.

[KiplingKat]

Unfortunately, I can recommend intelligent x-men graphic novels or comics with great, charismatic characters, an intricate and clever plot, good writing/dialogue...but not romance. To be honest, most of the time when X-Writers try to write romance, it either get overly bogged down in angst (Gambit-Rogue), or just silly (Scott-Emma, Whedon is actually the only writer to make Scott and Emma work ad a fun dysfunctional couple).

But I'm a little confused, because you asked for a intricate and clever plot, and then you complained that Whedon's story was too intricate for you to follow. (Which the "jumps" you were talking about were actually all explained in the comic themselves.)

So...well, what kind of story do you want to read? Do you want to read a straight adventure, a socio-political story, science fiction, mystical adventure, drama, what type of story are you looking for?

[Valjean999]

Someone else mentioned it, but I would go with the "God Loves, Man Kills" graphic novel, as well. Its what cemented my love of the X-Men.

And I know I am in the minority, but I do NOT recommend Grant Morrisons run. In my 25+ years of reading the X-Men, the only time I almost dropped the book is when he was writing it. It was a vile piece of garbage. But thats just me.

[Michael Sean]

I recommend any of Grant Morrison's run on New X-men. It is great stuff and I'm sure you will appreciate it.

Do not listen to this poster:

Morrison's run makes no sense at all. Especially Magneto's grand master plan. All the characters who hog the spotlight are Grant's character, one of those is Grant Morrison himself. His run was okay, but it's not adult or complicated. It's a huge mess with mature themes thrown in. The X-Men cripple some kids for doing exactly what the X-Men are doing and it's supposed to be a huge moral lesson of some such. It's full of plot holes. Stay away! Stay away!

[KJ_81]

X-Men: God Loves, Man Kills

[wolvie616]

X-Men: God Loves, Man Kills

dang! beat me to it

[The Lucky One]

It was a vile piece of garbage. But thats just me.

I don't think it was a vile piece of garbage; if it was a new team book starring characters I'd never heard of, I might have really liked it. It's just that to me, it wasn't the X-Men, it was a bunch of random new characters who happened to look a bit like the X-Men.

Sharkie, my recommendation would be that you check out X-Men: God Loves, Man Kills. It's about as serious, deep, and philosophical as the X-Men get. If you don't like it, then I would say that the X-Men in general are probably not right for you.

-D

[Pixie_Solanas]

Legacy is the thinking man's X-book.

YEAAAAAH! You got the right one baby, uh huh!

[Pixie_Solanas]

And I know I am in the minority, but I do NOT recommend Grant Morrisons run. In my 25+ years of reading the X-Men, the only time I almost dropped the book is when he was writing it. It was a vile piece of garbage. But thats just me.

Oh lord. Grant Morrison's run was very well the BEST x-run ever, or at least neck and neck with Claremont's early 80s heyday.

For your convenience, Marvel is releasing "omnibus" editions (i think they're on the second volume right now, released last week) of the complete run, so you don't have to mess with the smaller tpbs. Not bad for a "vile piece of garbage".

[KiplingKat]

Guys, lets not turn this into another debate on Grant Morrison's run.

Just recommend what you recommend.

[wolvie616]

Oh lord. Grant Morrison's run was very well the BEST x-run ever, or at least neck and neck with Claremont's early 80s heyday.

For your convenience, Marvel is releasing "omnibus" editions (i think they're on the second volume right now, released last week) of the complete run, so you don't have to mess with the smaller tpbs. Not bad for a "vile piece of garbage".

i thought it was pretty good, but i hate d planet x

[MartinRedmond]

I recommend any of Grant Morrison's run on New X-men. It is great stuff and I'm sure you will appreciate it.

Do not listen to this poster:

Explain to me Magneto's plan and how it makes sense please? Starting from him being a vegetable cripple in a wheel chair.

[jarrod]

I would kill your mother for an X-Treme X-Men Omnibus.

[Squidboy]

I'd have to say God Loves, Man Kills by Chris Claremont. I didn't finish the trade (I started reading it at long last in the store, but had to leave before I could get far in it), but literally from the first page, you can tell it's not your typical X-Men story. Obviously, I'm gonna have to finish reading the thing before I can give the proper recommendation, but it's probably one of the most popular X-Men Graphic Novels, and even an incomplete read of the book showed me why.

[atomicturtle]

Rob Kirkman's "Jubilee" from '04-'05.

Shut up, it was awesome.









OK, but seriously - any of the X-23/NYX books.

[Alex A Sanchez]

Okay, I have to agree that there is relatively little character development during Whedon's run- it's just too short. His entire run was more like a fantastic, well told story rather than an entire run, like Claremont's or Morrison's. I also did not get much of a feel for the characters, and if a reader were to read it without knowing who these people were I am sure they would be lost.

Since the original poster is looking for character work, I am going to recommend (in addition to God Loves, Man Kills) Chuck Austen's run. I will warn you that a number of the characters act out of their regular character, but as a run their is consistency. The run focuses on relationships (sexual and romantic), in addition to some great humor. I don't recall a particularly deep philosophical element to the run, but one can only read GLMK so many times.

Also, I think you would LOVE PAD's work on X-Factor. It's more of a mature book than it's star-studded parent book.

[Sharkie7]

Unfortunately, I can recommend intelligent x-men graphic novels or comics with great, charismatic characters, an intricate and clever plot, good writing/dialogue...but not romance. To be honest, most of the time when X-Writers try to write romance, it either get overly bogged down in angst (Gambit-Rogue), or just silly (Scott-Emma, Whedon is actually the only writer to make Scott and Emma work ad a fun dysfunctional couple).

But I'm a little confused, because you asked for a intricate and clever plot, and then you complained that Whedon's story was too intricate for you to follow. (Which the "jumps" you were talking about were actually all explained in the comic themselves.)

So...well, what kind of story do you want to read? Do you want to read a straight adventure, a socio-political story, science fiction, mystical adventure, drama, what type of story are you looking for?

Well I dont' consider the unexplained jumps in the story intricate or complex; I just think that's bad writing. By intricate and complex I mean the dialogue, the themes, the relationships should all be intricate and complex. I good example of that is like people who write about "the good guys" and "the bad guys" - that's oversimplifying things. Morality is much more complicated than that. Are people who do bad things necessarily bad people? Many people who do bad things do so because their minds and emotions are warped do to something terrible that happened to them in their pasts that was out of their control. I don't know if that's a good example because I'm looking for more than just moral ambiguity. I don't know. Complex and intricate stories does not mean stupid unexplainable jumps in the plot. THere is nothing intricate about wolverine and cyclops about to fight on one page, and then on the next page they're all sitting down. That just doesn't make sense.

Anyway, some of examples of what complex/intricate means to me. My favorite author is Vladimir Nabokov. He's most famous for writing Lolita. If you've ever read anything by him, you know what I mean by complex and intricate. My favorite television show is Dexter (on showtime). It's very mature themed and complicated. Some of my favorite movies are Brick, 28 days later, American Beauty, Memento,The Usual Suspects, Garden State, X-men, Harry Potters, American History X, The Virgin Suicides...

I'm very interested in the characters, their emotions, good, clever dialogue, real feeling, charismatic characters...

Does that help?

[Sharkie7]

Thanks so much everyone. Again, I've never gotten so much help on another forum so quickly. I will definitely be checking out god loves man kills/loves whatever it was called, as well as reading reviews on the otehrs to see if I'm interested. What could be helpful to me (if you have time) is if some of the people who recommended books and haven't done this already actually write a bit moer about why they liked it and why they think I'd like it, etc etc.

I've found X-men Runaways pretty cheap from another seller on amazon. Does anyone else besides the person who recommended it have an opinion on this one?

THanks again so much :)

[Sharkie7]

Also - I hvea heard that "the uncanny x-men" is good. Specifically, "the uncanny x-men - the dark phoenix saga." Does anyone know anything abotu this? Is it good? Is it just the story from Xmen 3? or is it not?

thanks

[Sharkie7]

And what about days of future past?

[xgeek52]

god loves man kills...the original is in graphic form, but it's included in an updated version in xtreme x-men: god loves man kills...

also check out xtreme x-men: mekanix, featuring kitty pryde...

[Justin K.]

Blood of Apocalypse (X-men) and anything New Excalibur :tongue:

[Sharkie7]

god loves man kills...the original is in graphic form, but it's included in an updated version in xtreme x-men: god loves man kills...

also check out xtreme x-men: mekanix, featuring kitty pryde...

all i can find is this: http://www.amazon.com/X-Treme-X-Men-Mekanix-Marvel-Xtreme/dp/0785111174/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219280747&sr=8-1

is there a cheaper version?

also where can i find the less expensive god loves man kills?

because you're saying that the xtreme x-men: god loves man kills has more than just god loves man kills in it, right? or no?

[xgeek52]

you might be able to find an original publication, which was done in the '80s (i think '82 or '83) though i think it might be tough going...

as for days of the future past, i'm sorry i didn't mention it because it is significant and worth checking out...

[claimtosubclaim]

Complex and intricate stories does not mean stupid unexplainable jumps in the plot. THere is nothing intricate about wolverine and cyclops about to fight on one page, and then on the next page they're all sitting down. That just doesn't make sense.


Logan and Wolverine are talking trash to each other. Beast sees this. Off-panel, he breaks them up before they fight, and we jump cut to him lecturing them. Any kid could understand that, and it's a perfectly normal and universally accepted narrative device in all forms of storytelling. It sounds like you wanted everything spelled out for you.

Also, Cyclops declaring that they need to get back to looking and acting like superheroes is because for years prior to this, they had been dressing in black leather "street" gear and to some extent acting more like a military presence (X-Corps and X-Treme X-Men comes to mind).

If you want something that pretty much everyone considers to be intricate and complex, go read Watchmen. If you liked Brick, you might enjoy the current run of X-Factor.

[Last_Avenger]

lol you mean astonishing x-men with "gifted" written at the bottom of the cover? Because that's actually why I started this topic. I was reading it about an hour ago, got about 30 pages in, and I thought to myself I could really enjoy a good x-men comic, but this just isn't good enough. Whedon is a pretty mediocre writer in my opinion. I've tried to get into watching Buffy but he's just not that clever, funny, or talented in my opinion. My issues with Astonishing X-men were that 30ish or however many pages in I was, I sitll didn't know who every character was, or what had happened to Jean I'm guessing (the big tragedy Wolverine and Cyclops were alluding to), and how things kept happening really fast and it didn't make sense. Like Wolverine and Cylclops were about to fight outside and then I turn the page and they're all sitting and talking on top of all these islands (looking like giants) - it turned out they were sitting in the danger room and someone made it look like they were above the earth or whatever. But anyway - how do they go from running straight at each other outdoors to just talking?

With every comic there is almost always a certain level of continuity that they just don't bother explaining to the reader, Jean's death was one of those things. It was a pretty big thing to happen, and quite honestly it was very recent when the issue came out, its only natural for those two guys, ESPECIALLY them, to fight and then be talking normally again. After all, they've known each other for a long time, and fighting as they were is pretty tame anyways, Wolverine can heal and Cyclops just pushes him back, I'd actually think it would be pretty typical.

[Grumpy Fox]

New Excalibur ??? Is that a joke ?
And the X-Treme X-men follow-up to "God Loves, Man Kills" is really poorly written, with visuals that are less then appealing…
Too bad Alan Davis's run on the original Excalibur has never been collected.

I don't know if and how it's collected, but the Chris Claremont and Paul Smith run (Brood Saga, then the Marauders) is quintessential X-Men for me…

[Knaves]

My couple of cents worth would be the current incarnation of X-Factor up to just before the Messiah Complex tie ins. Others would be the minis Madrox and NYX.

[Justin K.]

New Excalibur ??? Is that a joke ?
And the X-Treme X-men follow-up to "God Loves, Man Kills" is really poorly written, with visuals that are less then appealing…
Too bad Alan Davis's run on the original Excalibur has never been collected.

I don't know if and how it's collected, but the Chris Claremont and Paul Smith run (Brood Saga, then the Marauders) is quintessential X-Men for me…

Yes it was, I wasn't being serious when I suggested my suggestions

[Alex A Sanchez]

...X-men Runaways pretty cheap from another seller on amazon. Does anyone else besides the person who recommended it have an opinion on this one?

Originally it was free, given away for Free Comic Book Day over a year ago. It's a one-shot, not even full length story. Totally not worth it unless you are a Runaways/Skottie Young fan.

Also - I hvea heard that "the uncanny x-men" is good. Specifically, "the uncanny x-men - the dark phoenix saga." Does anyone know anything abotu this? Is it good? Is it just the story from Xmen 3? or is it not?

thanks

I'm actually collecting the reprint issues of the Dark Phoenix Saga, so I haven't read it yet. But it is supposed to be one of the best X-Men stories ever told (it is definitely a milestone event in X-Men history). I imagine it is significantly better than X3

[The Lucky One]

Also - I hvea heard that "the uncanny x-men" is good. Specifically, "the uncanny x-men - the dark phoenix saga." Does anyone know anything abotu this? Is it good? Is it just the story from Xmen 3? or is it not?

Okay, here's the thing, Sharkie- a lot of people here are recommending some very good stuff (and some... not as good stuff), but not all of it is totally new reader accessible. That's by no means a knock on you or your intelligence, it's just that the X-books can be pretty dense in continuity, and even very smart people might throw up their hands in frustration because they don't know the backstories. Case in point: New Mutants #41-45. These five issues (each a standalone story) are excellent, superior comic storytelling at its peak. Just great stuff. They are NOT what I would give to my wife or someone who doesn't read comics regularly, because they feature a spinoff team that most non-fans wouldn't recognize, and because while each can be enjoyed as its own story, they all reference events that have occured earlier in the book's history.

With that in mind, here's the situation. I'm not going to touch on either Morrison's or Whedon's runs. Both were fairly divisive, both have extreme fans and extreme haters, and other people can recommend or steer you away from them as the case may be. However, prior to Morrison's run, there were basically three stories held up as the best of the best X-Men tales, the holy trinity that you would give to anyone who was interested in the books but didn't have much knowledge of them.

One is God Loves, Man Kills. If there is any single X-Men story that requires the very bare minimum of prior knowledge and completely encapsulates what they're all about, it's this one. It stars what many people consider the definitive team of X-Men and can be enjoyed on its own without any backstory more than what you've seen in the movies. X2: X-Men United is very, very loosely based on it, but it definitely stands on its own as its own story. Get it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Men:_God_Loves,_Man_Kills

Another is Days of Future Past. This is a 2-part story that originally ran in the main book (Uncanny X-Men #141-142), and is one of the best and best-known examples of a dystopian alternate future in fiction; elements of it were used in the first X-Men movie. The premise is that in a possible future, mutant-killing robots called Sentinels have taken over the world, killing most of Earth's superheroes and confining the few remaining mutants to concentration camps. A last-ditch effort by the surviving X-Men has them send the adult Kate Pryde's mind back in time to present day to inhabit the body of her teenage self. The goal is to prevent the assassination of Senator Robert Kelly, a mutant-hating bigot who is trying to enact the Mutant Registration Act; his assassination is what leads to the Sentinel solution being implemented. You mentioned that issues of morality interest you... the would-be assassin is Mystique and her Brotherhood, who are ostensibly trying to help mutantkind by killing a powerful man who seeks to oppress them, but the X-Men know the eventual outcome will be far worse. This is another pretty standalone story not requiring much prior knowledge.

And finally there's the Dark Phoenix Saga, which originally ran in Uncanny X-Men #129-137. It's by no means the worst of the three (some would say it's the best), it's just that it's the one that brings in the most prior continuity... certain plot elements that lead up to it had been building since UXM #101. But it's still fairly accessible, all of the needed knowledge is recapped effectively. Again, issues of morality and absolute power corrupting absolutely lie at the core of the story- the question is whether horrendous actions perpetrated by someone who was under a debatable level of outside influence can or should be held against them. The X-Men are the protaganists, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're the good guys, depending on your point of view. It's an excellent story, very emotional, and by the same writer/artist team as Days of Future Past. I would definitely recommend it, it's just that there are definitely more sci-fi/"space opera" elements to it than the other two. (And yes, the very basic premise for X3 came from this story, but trust me, there are far more differences than similarities.)

I gotta get back to work, but hopefully that helps a bit, Sharkie. Like I said, there have been many other good X-Men stories, but these are three of the most famous and most revered. And for good reason.

-D

[Squidboy]

My couple of cents worth would be the current incarnation of X-Factor up to just before the Messiah Complex tie ins. Others would be the minis Madrox and NYX.

I'd second (at least) the first three arcs of X-Factor, as well as the Madrox mini-series too. I'd have to say that this is where X-Factor at it's best was, which is not to say it's not still great, but when I think of X-Factor, these earlier stories are what immediately come to mind.

[marvell2100]

Well it's not a graphic novel and I don't know if they did a tpb for it but "Havok and Wolverine: Meltdown", written by Walter Simonson and painted by John J. Muth was very good.

I would recommend "God Loves/Man Kills" as well.

[wolvie616]

Also - I hvea heard that "the uncanny x-men" is good. Specifically, "the uncanny x-men - the dark phoenix saga." Does anyone know anything abotu this? Is it good? Is it just the story from Xmen 3? or is it not?

thanks

parts of it are x3 but it is still one of the greatest stories of x men ever told, but not because it is complex, but because it so emotional

same with future past

[sephirothskiller]

They're called "Comic Books" not "Graphic Novels" :P .

[Skappy]

New X-Men by Morrison, definitely.

Whedon/Cassaday's run on Astonishing X-Men.

Also, Collected Age of Apocalypse.

[The Lucky One]

They're called "Comic Books" not "Graphic Novels" :P .

If you want to get really pedantic about it, a comic is a "graphic novel" if the entire thing is published all in one shot, rather than broken up into serialized installments. Road to Perdition, Maus, Batman: The Killing Joke, X-Men: God Loves, Man Kills... those are all graphic novels. Watchmen, Batman: Year One, X-Men: Days of Future Past are not graphic novels.

But frankly, no one cares. The only time it's truly wrong to call them "graphic novels" is if someone is using that as a way to try to sound mature because he feels ashamed to be reading comic books. They're comics. And some comics are graphic novels. But the differentiation is in the format, it has nothing to do with maturity level or how many tits and curse words you include.

-D

[xgeek52]

god loves, man kills was graphic novel...that's what they called it...

there was no animal as tpb when it first came out...

[rage6839]

god loves, man kills was graphic novel...that's what they called it...

there was no animal as tpb when it first came out...

And boy was it graphic. I had a friend in college who was just as much into comics as I was but he was a DC fanatic and Marvel was my favorite. We decided to pick out 2 books for the other to read. I gave him God Loves, Man Kills and The Phoenix Saga and he gave me A Death in the Family and The Killing Joke. He could not get over the what the Phoenix did but the first pages of GL, MK made him a fan

A Death in the Family still ranks in my top 5. Joker is not to be played with, especially when he is laughing.

[Boosebaster]

I felt compelled to respond to this post as it's one of the dumbest things I've read on the internet for a while and that's impressive.

I've read an awful lot of X-Men and an awful lot of graphic novels (faves include Sandman, Preacher and Transmetropolitan) and in my opinion the run that starts with Grant Morrison and ends with Joss Whedon is as good as it gets for X-Men or for graphic novels as a whole. Now, I am not one of those people who can't appreciate that everyone's opinion is different, I can, but every bit of reasoning you give for not liking it is, frankly, stupid. I especially have a problem with the fact that you seem to repeatedly make out that you are somehow above the material, while continually proving that you aren't by failing to understand it. Indeed I tend to find that a lot of people who think they are far too intelligent for the likes of Buffy and Angel aren't actually smart enough to get them.

My issues with Astonishing X-men were that 30ish or however many pages in I was, I sitll didn't know who every character was, or what had happened to Jean

I suppose this point is fair enough, one of the problems with picking up something like X-Men is that there is now nearly 50 years of backstory, but every X-Men book can't begin by going back over all of that for the newbies, that would be daft. But while it isn't spelled out, everything you need to know is made clear in the first few pages. Emma Frost is a telepath with a history of bad deeds who is now reformed and sleeping with Cyclops, Kitty has issues with Frost and is returning to the school a woman, after having left as little more than a child. Jean has died. Etc. All of the characters and the relationships to each other are made clear enough at the beginning to allow a new reader to latch on. It's something called "reading between the lines", see?

and how things kept happening really fast and it didn't make sense. Like Wolverine and Cylclops were about to fight outside and then I turn the page and they're all sitting and talking on top of all these islands (looking like giants) - it turned out they were sitting in the danger room and someone made it look like they were above the earth or whatever. But anyway - how do they go from running straight at each other outdoors to just talking?

Everything makes perfect sense to everyone else, so I'd suggest the problem lies with you here. Logan and Scott fight, it's just what they do. You don't need to see the fight, the fight isn't the story. It's important for the Scott / Emma story that you know Logan and Scott are fighting over Jean when Scott is supposed to be with Emma, but what did you want, pages and pages of them fighting? What story would that have told?

In "Understanding Comics," Scott McCloud writes about how comics are about what happens between panels, with you as the reader completing the actions that aren't shown in order to form a logical story. If you have a problem with this act, maybe comics just aren't for you? Someone else has suggested that Beast breaks them up. Actually I think it's Frost, since on the previous panel, she walks out first leaving Beast on his own. In my imagination, Frost went out, took telepathic control of the combatants and marched them to the Danger Room. My imagination just filled that in, I didn't have to think "how did they get from a to b?" it just happened automatically. But again, it doesn't really matter how the fight was ended, that's NOT the story.

I personally think it's highly amusing that Logan's flesh is still smoking during the next page, that tells you all you need to know - Scott gave him a thorough roasting. He doesn't appear to be punctured / bleeding does he? Therefore if it is that important for you to know who won the fight it makes sense to assume it was Scott.

Plus the bit about looking like giants is also quite funny, and Hank explains that he's fucked up his programming of the danger room hence why it looks so weird. Were you reading the words or just looking at the pretty pictures?

Also the "voice over" typed thing that was going on with both the voices of the mutant holding up some meeting place and the doctor talking about the mutant cure in the other place - half the time you can't tell which person is saying what lines because they're both being written over pictures of other things that are happening.

You can tell. I can pretty much guarantee that everyone else who has ever read this found this perfectly easy to follow. It's obvious when it's the doctor talking. Look, I'm just going to have to question your intelligence here. No-one else has a problem with this, and I don't want to take the piss, but again your insistence that you are somehow above this material really jars with the fact you don't seem to be able to follow the most simple sequence of events.

there wasn't enough character development

You read 30 pages. Do you know what character development even is? Character development happens over a period of time, not in the first chapter of a story. I'm a bit of a TV geek, I've watched EVERYTHING, and I've never seen character development like you get from Joss Whedon. Characters like Spike, or Wesley, or Cordelia from Buffy and Angel are completely unrecognisable several years after we first met them. If you jumped from Buffy Season 3 pathetic, spineless Wesley to Angel Season 4 shotgun-wielding nutcase Wesley it would be jarring, but week-to-week you can join the dots and see exactly what events in his life transformed him from one to the other. And Astonishing X-Men is PACKED with Character development. Whedon developed the character of Cyclops more than any other writer in the character's 50 year history. He took the dull, dependable, irksome boyscout and made him the most fascinating character in the entire Marvel Universe for the entirety of the run. In fact people have complained that the main continuity writers pretty much ignored this development and continued with boring Cyclops in Uncanny X-Men. Kitty Pryde, Armor, and Emma Frost also go through significant character development.

That part specifically makes me think that this is aimed more towards "all ages" or the younger group. I mean that's what Whedon writes. Buffy, Angel, etc etc, he doesn't write mature, serious, meaningful, intelligent stuff

This is just idiotic. Whedon doesn't write Kids stuff. The 18 Certificate on my Angel DVDs is the first clue of that. Yes, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, that "kids show" where one of the characters went insane and FLAYED SOMEONE ALIVE. That "kids show" where the protagonist lets someone repeatedly sexually abuse her just so she can feel SOMETHING as she is so emotionally numb. The Guardian, one of the world's most highly respected newspapers, especially when it comes to reviews of the arts, has often referred to Buffy as the best TV show ever made. But I suppose it's rubbish because you're clearly so bright and you think it's rubbish...even though you admit to having barely watched any of it.

Something that really gets at the core of the X-men characters. The relationships.

Many long-term fans have noted that Whedon "gets" these characters' voices and their relationships to each other like no-one else in their history, maybe he gets them even more than their creators did.

But hang on, you claim to not know anything about the X-Men, what gives you the right to judge whether Whedon gets to the core of the characters? Whedon is probably the biggest X-Men fan in the world, most of what he's written has been heavily influenced by it. Buffy Summers is based on Kitty Pryde and named after Cyclops for heaven's sake!

the mature themes involved

Such as whether it would be right for a mutant to have the cure forced upon them?



Morality is much more complicated than that. Are people who do bad things necessarily bad people?

Like...for example, Professor X being responsible for one of the big problems the X-Men face in the second arc because he ignored the trapped, sentient alien technology that controls the danger room when it reached out to him and made it clear to him that it was basically alive?

That's like, an absolute perfect example of what you're talking about. Good guy, good reasoning, bad choice. One that causes a big rift between him and his team.

Cyclops: "We'll come around, right? What does it hurt? The oppression of a new life form...you figure we've taken enough from the sapiens, why not dish it out to the AI?"
Xavier: "You know it's not that simple."
Cyclops: "You're the man who taught me that it was."

[Boosebaster]

Many people who do bad things do so because their minds and emotions are warped do to something terrible that happened to them in their pasts that was out of their control.

You've just perfectly described another arc in this series where Emma Frost's "Survivor's Guilt" over being one of a handful of mutants who survived an extermination event which killed millions of mutants fucks around with her telepathic powers and causes all sorts of problems. It's like EXACTLY word for word what you've just described.

Oh also, when Cyclops said 'the fantastic four aren't...' (hated on, or whatever it was), that was also ridiculous. A comic where the x-men start talking about the fantastic four is not something i want to read. I mean why don't they just throw bruce wayne and spiderman into the mix. Maybe they can all team up and kidnap Harry Potter

No my friend. THIS is ridiculous. It may be the dumbest paragraph I've ever read. Pretty much THE ENTIRE POINT of Marvel is that these characters all live in the same Universe. If you don't like it you will want to avoid Marvel altogether. And the DC Universe too actually. At any given time, The X-Men can run into Spider-Man, Thor, Captain America, Iron Man, Silver Surfer, Doctor Strange...even Blade. Pretty much everyone else in the history of the world thinks this is the BEST thing about the Marvel Universe.

Batman and Harry Potter are not Marvel creations, so yes your examples are pretty retarded but have only had the effect of making you look that way rather than Whedon.

Basically, reading your post I'd come to the conclusion that you neither like The X-Men, or indeed comics / graphic novels and should therefore go and seek your thrills in what you consider to be more "intelligent" subjects and mediums.


I'm very interested in the characters, their emotions, good, clever dialogue, real feeling, charismatic characters...

Hey you know what you should read? It's called Astonishing X-Men!


Wow, haven't had a rant like that in years. Kind of enjoyed that.

[Nicoclaws]

lol you mean astonishing x-men with "gifted" written at the bottom of the cover? Because that's actually why I started this topic. I was reading it about an hour ago, got about 30 pages in, and I thought to myself I ....

I think you'd LOVE Claremont's X-men Forever. The first run, because the Avengers and Spiderman appear in season too.

[glitterdammerung]

i agree with all the posters that Claremont's troika of X-men stories are essential to a new reader...
dark phoenix... days of future's past... and especially God Loves, Man Kills.
As a Morrison fan, I'd suggest it if the person you wanted to introduce it to needed a much more modern sensibility. Morrison basically distilled the basics of x-men and spun some heavy meta text.... al la his doom patrol or invisibles.

[Boosebaster]

Never read God Loves, Man Kills but I shall rectify that shortly.

I have Dark Phoenix and Days of Future Past, read them for the first time about 5 years ago. And while they're enjoyable for what they are and a product of their more innocent time, and vastly important bits of X-Men history, they are hard to enjoy so much now. I found them mighty overrated.

Way way too much over-narration and I was especially irked by the narrator's constant need to spell out what every character's power was even when it had been explained on like, the previous page.

"And with a thought, razor-keen adamantium claws pop from Wolverine's knuckles!" EVERY SINGLE TIME it happens? It just gets a bit wearing.

And everyone has to explain what they're doing all the time. "I Storm, control the weather! And I will summon lightening bolts to deal with you, evil-doer!" That's a paraphrase but it happens all the time and really gets to me.

As a Whedon fan I also found it fascinating how many bits of Astonishing referenced Claremont's stories (like the Wolverine "now it's my turn" transposed to Kitty), but also stuff like Buffy too - the Season 3 episode "Helpless" is basically exactly the same as the Christmas story where Kitty is at the mansion by herself and has to fight off the demon.

[Gene M.]

You're wasting your time if you read anything other than Morrison's run.

[Seresecros]

The Darkstar Wars is cerebral and demanding.

[deadhead]

A cheap and effective way to get both Days of Future Past and the Dark Phoenix Saga is to buy Essential X-Men volume 2.

Essential X-Men volume deals with the all-new, all-different X-Men, that's when Wolverine, Storm, Colossus, NightCrawler among others join the X-Men and made it the money-making franchise it is today. Volume 1 is good and you should read it, fairly accessible and should be a good primer for the next volume.

Volume 2 is probably the greatest collection of comics ever made. It got the first appearance of Alpha Flight - Canada super team-, Proteus (great story with a tragic non-villain), Days of Future Past, The Dark Phoenix Saga (the greatest Marvel story ever), and many more. Great action, character development, triumph, tragedy...

The good thing about the Essential book is that you get more than 500 pages of comics for less than 20$. The bad thing - debatable, I don't see it has a problem - is that it's printed in black and white on cheap paper.

After that, you can keep reading the Essential if you like them but I would recommend buying E is for Extinction, the first TPb of Grant Morrison run. It shouldn't be too difficult to follow and it got that mature feel that you seem to like. This trade paper back collects the first 4 issues of his run and you could get it for 10-15$. Try this first before buying an omnibus that will cost you a lot more.

[Peeps]

Someone else mentioned it, but I would go with the "God Loves, Man Kills" graphic novel, as well. Its what cemented my love of the X-Men.

And I know I am in the minority, but I do NOT recommend Grant Morrisons run. In my 25+ years of reading the X-Men, the only time I almost dropped the book is when he was writing it. It was a vile piece of garbage. But thats just me.

i completely agree

[lilyinblue]

Someone else mentioned it, but I would go with the "God Loves, Man Kills" graphic novel, as well. Its what cemented my love of the X-Men.

And I know I am in the minority, but I do NOT recommend Grant Morrisons run. In my 25+ years of reading the X-Men, the only time I almost dropped the book is when he was writing it. It was a vile piece of garbage. But thats just me.

I have a love/hate relationship with Morrison's run. I liked his ideas. I like (mostly) the stage he set for the future of the franchise... however, there's just something (I could never put my finger on it) about his writing style that I have a hard time enjoying.

I loved it conceptually, but I didn't enjoy reading most of it. (Though it had it's moments.)

The other thing I wanted to put in my two cents about is the concept of all of these various suggestions as 'graphic novels.' Picking up anything X-men isn't going to be like picking up Watchmen or any other self-contained graphic novel. A certain amount of pre-existing knowledge of events will be expected. Watchmen is like a movie or a novel. Everything you need is in one package. Picking up Astonishing X-Men or New X-Men, however, will be like sitting to watch a TV series for the first time, but starting with season 5... or grabbing the sequel to a book without reading the original.

I always say, never be afraid to hit up Wikipedia or similar sources to help fill you in on all of the necessary history that isn't going to be explained internally.

[Boosebaster]

A cheap and effective way to get both Days of Future Past and the Dark Phoenix Saga is to buy Essential X-Men volume 2.

I don't know if America has them, but in the UK we have "Marvel Pocket Books" which are smaller (same size as the Runaways books were) but still in colour and available pretty cheaply. Brand new, Dark Phoenix is like £4.99 and covers everything from the Proteus story to Jean's death. A bargain.

[fod_xp]

Legacy is the thinking man's X-book.

Ignore this comment, Mike Carey's Vertigo work is intelligent. Legacy is just his counter to Fraction's Uncanny.

X-Men post SC is Matt Fraction's Marty Stu Scott Summers vs. Mike Carey's Mary Sue Rogue.

Also, Morrison's New X-Men was the ONLY "thinking man's/woman's X-book."

Morrison's "New X-Men" was a good title with meaningful story arcs and new villains - Cassy Nova, the rogue Mastermold, etc. Frank Quitely's art is more realistic and less heroic, like something you'd find in an issue of Heavy Metal rather than in a Marvel comic. Soldier X was also pretty good, chronicling the point in Cable's life when his T-O virus went into remission and he was wandering the world, largely in 3rd world countries as he tried to find a way to control his unhindered powers.

Agreed, Morrison's New X-Men is considered (by myself and a good number of other X-fans) the definitive X-book of the entire franchise.

Peter Milligan's X-Force and X-Statix. I think you will like it if you don't mind a high character death count. It didn't receive any hype yet it's very good.

This is also recommended.

Astonishing X-Men's first arc is the perfect summation of what you're looking for.

He didn't like it, so he's S.O.L.

But, better than that, try to get your hands on Morrison's New X-Men run. Brilliant, fun stuff.

That's pretty much the general consensus on many X-forums.

[1bulma1]

astonishing xmen 2004
xmen noir
and any other series that has cyclops and emma frost as a couple or rogue and gambit having sex therapy

[fod_xp]

astonishing xmen 2004
xmen noir
and any other series that has cyclops and emma frost as a couple or rogue and gambit having sex therapy

Seconded.

*text added to meet minimum letter requirement*

[T Hedge Coke]

Adding my vote to the Grant Morrison New X-men run. Beautiful stuff.

The Milligan/Allred (and Co) X-Force/X-Statix, Milligan and Jean Paul Leon's The Further Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix, the currently-being-collected Warren Ellis run on Excalibur (volume two is almost out now), the Ellis plus Steven Grant and various artists run on X-Man are also quite good and sensibly mature.

I'll also recommend the Larry Hama run on Wolverine, most of which has been collected as Essentials, I believe, which is fantastic YA adventure fiction but also quite tinged with moments of maturity and depth that the general air of grand guignol melodrama can sometimes belie.

[SittingRabbit]

You should check out Academy x and New X-Men: Childhood's end.

It is very chaotic and has some extreme situations. And the characters are very cool.

EDIT: Well, some of them are immature, but the cool characters are VERY cool.

[Nimrod's Son]

You've just perfectly described another arc in this series where Emma Frost's "Survivor's Guilt" over being one of a handful of mutants who survived an extermination event which killed millions of mutants fucks around with her telepathic powers and causes all sorts of problems. It's like EXACTLY word for word what you've just described.



No my friend. THIS is ridiculous. It may be the dumbest paragraph I've ever read. Pretty much THE ENTIRE POINT of Marvel is that these characters all live in the same Universe. If you don't like it you will want to avoid Marvel altogether. And the DC Universe too actually. At any given time, The X-Men can run into Spider-Man, Thor, Captain America, Iron Man, Silver Surfer, Doctor Strange...even Blade. Pretty much everyone else in the history of the world thinks this is the BEST thing about the Marvel Universe.

Batman and Harry Potter are not Marvel creations, so yes your examples are pretty retarded but have only had the effect of making you look that way rather than Whedon.

Basically, reading your post I'd come to the conclusion that you neither like The X-Men, or indeed comics / graphic novels and should therefore go and seek your thrills in what you consider to be more "intelligent" subjects and mediums.




Hey you know what you should read? It's called Astonishing X-Men!


Wow, haven't had a rant like that in years. Kind of enjoyed that.

Goddamn you boosebaster! Reading through the comments, I was gonna roast this pompous dick but you bet me to it! Basically said everything I thought of and more! Well played sir :biggrin:

[Nimrod's Son]

Never read God Loves, Man Kills but I shall rectify that shortly.

I have Dark Phoenix and Days of Future Past, read them for the first time about 5 years ago. And while they're enjoyable for what they are and a product of their more innocent time, and vastly important bits of X-Men history, they are hard to enjoy so much now. I found them mighty overrated.

Way way too much over-narration and I was especially irked by the narrator's constant need to spell out what every character's power was even when it had been explained on like, the previous page.

"And with a thought, razor-keen adamantium claws pop from Wolverine's knuckles!" EVERY SINGLE TIME it happens? It just gets a bit wearing.

And everyone has to explain what they're doing all the time. "I Storm, control the weather! And I will summon lightening bolts to deal with you, evil-doer!" That's a paraphrase but it happens all the time and really gets to me.



Completely 100% agree. add po-faced and pretencious to this as well. I'll stick to my blasphemous New X-Men thank you very much :evilsmile:

[MarvelMaster616]

I'm looking for intelligent x-men graphic novels or comics with great, charismatic characters, romance, an intricate and clever plot, good writing/dialogue, and so on..

Just post your favorite x-men stories for adults (as in not aimed at kids) and why you like them please!

Thanks a lot!

You can't go wrong with Joss Whedon's Astonishing. That's about as mature and refined as you can get. If you're looking for something a bit more old school, I also recommend the Onslaught story. That encompassed the entire Marvel Universe. Or if you want a bit more explosions and edge, go with the first two volumes of Ultimate X-men (but whatever you do DON'T read Ultimatum). All of these are enjoyable reads, but in the end it's really a matter of taste.

[T Hedge Coke]

You can't go wrong with Joss Whedon's Astonishing. That's about as mature and refined as you can get.

I could disagree more, but I'd have to work at it.

I found Whedon's Astonishing run to be held up by immature impulses, such as the reuniting of Colossus and Kitty with the leaden pronouncements of destiny and first love tweeness abounding. It contains a number of odd choices in characterization, beginning, perhaps, with Kitty Pryde's assertion that she isn't a fighter and carried on through Emma's deal with Cassandra resulting in her joining the X-Men and developing her secondary mutation (because, once a villain, always a villain, right?). It's paced awkwardly, so that the over-arcing elements, like the X-Men's connection to the destiny and past of Breakworld lose their energy before we ever get to actually dealing with them. And, it unnecessarily contradicts several elements of the run of Morrison's that it was then claimed to be the spiritual successor to.

I'm not saying there isn't good stuff in his run, but I don't think the good outweighs the inane and I don't see how any of it could be considered mature, outside of, maybe, some of the character work with Cyclops and Wolverine.

[Cypocalypse_Complex]

I've been starting to collect X-Men compiled books since the Morrison era, I think I'm qualified to say a thing or two about this.

In my opinion, Astonishing X-Men under Whedon is like the Iron Man 1 of comic book movies--It's a near perfect popcorn flick. Popcorn flick, but near perfect. Meaning, all the elements needed in making a a good comic book is in there, even if the theme is simple. It was never intended to be an intellectual book, but it doesn't mean it lacks depth. I think the entire run should b e a template for all wanna be artists and writers who wants to have a break in the comic book business.

I guess it helps that Whedon is a true TV director. He has big leverage in making a coherent plot, with a comfortable pacing, and a good vision of how the paneling would be laid out.

It's something that fans would not readily notice since when AXM was being published, it was having major delays, but when it was collected into a tradepaperback, it was a surprisingly very smooth reading.

____________________

I can't say the same for Morrison though. His buildup for Xorn was a major mess. I mean, if you're going to reveal later on that Xorn is indeed Magneto, then backreading earlier issues about him would have to point out in that direction, even if there aren't that many clues to be found. So does that mean that the entire Xorn origin comic book issue was an entire make-believe fabrication? Theoretically, yes, but that's not how things should be written. It does not add up.

On the other hand, Whedon's laying out of the Breakworld legend regarding Colossus was very coherent. The buildup was rightfully paced.

But I do credit Morrison for laying out the fundamentals of how X-Men would be written in the 21st century. He gets a lot of credits for that.

[Cypocalypse_Complex]

Though if you're the type of person looking for a Chris Nolan-esque type of writing (meaning, you're more into the Dark Knight than Iron Man 1).

Read
- Early 90s stint of Scott Lobdell
- Mike Carey's Endangered Species One Shot
- Magneto Testament (not really intellectual, but this has been the most emotionally moving series I've read in years)

[Seresecros]

I can't say the same for Morrison though. His buildup for Xorn was a major mess. I mean, if you're going to reveal later on that Xorn is indeed Magneto, then backreading earlier issues about him would have to point out in that direction, even if there aren't that many clues to be found. So does that mean that the entire Xorn origin comic book issue was an entire make-believe fabrication? Theoretically, yes, but that's not how things should be written. It does not add up.

ACTUALLY!!! There are a lot of clues. Quentin Quire's final speech hints at it, as does the one-and-done story all about 'Xorn'. The issue where he destroys the U-Men whilst taking the kids into the woods, and the best one of all: look at how Xorn got that truck to pour sand on Glob Herman at the end of Riot at Xaviers.