Last Defenders #6: Review and **SPOILERS**

[BugsySig]

Didn't see a thread for this, so thought I'd start one. A little late, but I just got back from vacation. Don't forget to vote if you want to see more Defenders from Marvel.

SPOILERS ahaead...









Basically the team that showed up at the end of last issue was from the future, already a cohesive team. They whip the evil SS and leave after making some elussive comments to Kyle. Kyle is then returned to the present where he recruits said team to work together, outside of the Initiative but not in opposition to it. He purchases the base Stark gave them in Jersey (and copyrights the name "Defenders" to boot) and will work as their trainer, benefactor and PR man. We are left with Yandroth stating the team is either the Universe's greatest champions or it's future doom.

Review: I really liked this final issue, especially seeing the future team interact, and Casey leaves me wanting more of the Defenders. All the plot elements were nicely tied up and a foundation laid for any future minis or ongoings. I am also pleased that the final version of the team has strong ties to the original Defenders, yet do seem to fit together more appropriately as a team. Hopefully we will get to see this version of the Defenders again in the near future.

Post-Script: Did anyone else notice the "New Defenders" over in FF this week? I never would have noticed, but it was spelled out on the cover and caught my attention. They seemed to be a mix of 616 and alternate reality characters. Anyone know the deal there?

[celticguy]

I liked the Defenders a lot. The mini left a lot of potential for down the road.

I would like to see a few more members if they get picked up asa series or when they appear in She hulk.

What do you mean about voting for them?

[XPac]

I don't get the big thing about them not being a part of the Initaitive but not being oppossed to it.

If they're all registered, then they're fine. There are several teams that aren't part of the Initiative but aren't opposing it... like the Fantastic Four. If they're not all registered, then they're in opposition of the Initiative regardless of whether they're actively fighting it or not.

[celticguy]

I don't get the big thing about them not being a part of the Initaitive but not being oppossed to it.

If they're all registered, then they're fine. There are several teams that aren't part of the Initiative but aren't opposing it... like the Fantastic Four. If they're not all registered, then they're in opposition of the Initiative regardless of whether they're actively fighting it or not.

I think it is exactly like the FF. A registered team operating independantly of Stark.

they are still accountable I guess to the Initative in some way Now I wonder does this mean nighthawk has to pay for any damages they cause? Might get a bit expensive.

[XPac]

I think it is exactly like the FF. A registered team operating independantly of Stark.

they are still accountable I guess to the Initative in some way Now I wonder does this mean nighthawk has to pay for any damages they cause? Might get a bit expensive.

But does that mean that all the members are registered? That's the part I'm not exactly clear about.

[celticguy]

But does that mean that all the members are registered? That's the part I'm not exactly clear about.

2 certainly are. I would expect Krang as a non US citizen would not have to be and The Son of Satan not sure if he is a US citizen either.

[Cthulhudrew]

But does that mean that all the members are registered? That's the part I'm not exactly clear about.

It's left sort of vague, and I was hoping for a more definitive answer on this as well. Joe Casey had been saying in interviews that he'd explore aspects of the SHRA that hadn't been touched on, but didn't deliver quite as well as I'd hoped.

Personally, I can't imagine that either Hellstorm or Krang would be registered (nor could I see the SHRA applying to Krang as a non-US citizen; in either case, I'd like to see them try and force either one of them to leave the US if they don't register.) I'm guessing Joaquin isn't registered, either, but again- not clear. As a former SHIELD agent, one could say that he's already received the necessary training that the Initiative would provide and should be okay. On the other hand, if he doesn't register his secret ID, he'd be in violation. Not really sure about that one.

In any event, I was intrigued enough by the title to support another mini or ongoing by Casey.

[XPac]

It's left sort of vague, and I was hoping for a more definitive answer on this as well. Joe Casey had been saying in interviews that he'd explore aspects of the SHRA that hadn't been touched on, but didn't deliver quite as well as I'd hoped.

Personally, I can't imagine that either Hellstorm or Krang would be registered (nor could I see the SHRA applying to Krang as a non-US citizen; in either case, I'd like to see them try and force either one of them to leave the US if they don't register.) I'm guessing Joaquin isn't registered, either, but again- not clear. As a former SHIELD agent, one could say that he's already received the necessary training that the Initiative would provide and should be okay. On the other hand, if he doesn't register his secret ID, he'd be in violation. Not really sure about that one.

In any event, I was intrigued enough by the title to support another mini or ongoing by Casey.

I'm assuming that legally if Krang were to operatin in the US, he'd need to be registered. Though I'm likewise assuming he wouldn't bother. Nor do I see Son of Satan registering... though I didn't see Hellstrom slapping on a pair of tights again either, and I was clearly wrong about that. So I guess ya never know.

I'm assuming that for Joaquin registering is just a technicality. He's a freaking SHIELD agent, so that's about as accountable as it gets. Unless of course he doesn't wany anyone to know he's Nighthawk. Not sure why he'd care though.

[Cthulhudrew]

2 certainly are. I would expect Krang as a non US citizen would not have to be and The Son of Satan not sure if he is a US citizen either.

Daimon Hellstrom is a US citizen, though given his current status as monarch of Hell (one of them, anyway), I suppose a case could be made for some sort of diplomatic immunity.

[celticguy]

Daimon Hellstrom is a US citizen, though given his current status as monarch of Hell (one of them, anyway), I suppose a case could be made for some sort of diplomatic immunity.

I thought It would be like with Thor for Him and Krang give them ambassador status. But if the team dies on the vine it is all mute.

[XPac]

I thought It would be like with Thor for Him and Krang give them ambassador status. But if the team dies on the vine it is all mute.

I think you only get diplomatic immunity they can't do jack about you not registering, like Thor. Hellstrom perhaps falls into that category... but I'd be suprised if they gave a pass for an Atlantean after everything that went down between the surface world and Atlantis.

[Cthulhudrew]

Agreed. And given Atlantis' current "destroyed" status, I don't think Krang's status as a citizen there would be legally recognized by the US anyway.

[BugsySig]

I think Hellstrom would fall under post-human status just like strange. Kyle is still registered, just can't be Nighthawk anymore. Joaquin's status as a SHIELD agent (former, as it is implied he resigned) should cover him, but he does need to register his secret identity.

I think the whole, not a part, but not in opposition thing is because Stark seems to have it out for them and doesn't want them opperating. So Kyle is doing his best to avaoid him and deflect any heat from Tony while doing what he thinks is best.

[XPac]

Agreed. And given Atlantis' current "destroyed" status, I don't think Krang's status as a citizen there would be legally recognized by the US anyway.

Plus, the fact that Kang was basically been a supervillain 99% of the characters history. There's not a whole lot of reason to give the guy the benefit of the doubt.

Then again, Stark's practically offered a job to any supervillain he's stumbled upon since Civil War. If it's good enough for the TBolts and Ares, I guess the Initiative is good enough for Krang (assuming he's be willing to register).

[Monty_Cristo]

i like the new Nighthawk. he reminds me of a less racist version of Supreme Power Nighthawk. he also reminds me of Night Thrasher (Dwayne).

[BugsySig]

i like the new Nighthawk. he reminds me of a less racist version of Supreme Power Nighthawk. he also reminds me of Night Thrasher (Dwayne).

I like him too. Too many people complain that Kyle is just a Batman rip-off, so this is a chance for the character to step away from that label. A SHIELD agent who hates capes and masks that becomes one as his last resort for making a difference in the world? That's a story in and of itself. Plus the retro-look with some modern touches really makes the uniform pop.

[XPac]

I like him too. Too many people complain that Kyle is just a Batman rip-off, so this is a chance for the character to step away from that label. A SHIELD agent who hates capes and masks that becomes one as his last resort for making a difference in the world? That's a story in and of itself. Plus the retro-look with some modern touches really makes the uniform pop.

I personally didn't really get enough from the New Nighthawk to really like or dislike him.

I think that was sort of the downside of how they wrote this book... they spent a lot of time on people that didn't really end up on the team.

[BugsySig]

I personally didn't really get enough from the New Nighthawk to really like or dislike him.

I think that was sort of the downside of how they wrote this book... they spent a lot of time on people that didn't really end up on the team.

Agreed...kind of wish the team was formed by issue 3 and left 3 issues to show them off.

[Monty_Cristo]

I like him too. Too many people complain that Kyle is just a Batman rip-off, so this is a chance for the character to step away from that label. A SHIELD agent who hates capes and masks that becomes one as his last resort for making a difference in the world? That's a story in and of itself. Plus the retro-look with some modern touches really makes the uniform pop.

i like the face plate (hated it, at first). i wonder if he uses gas grenades and what other capabilities the armor has. it's definately good to get away from the Batman motif. it hurt characters like Black Panther and Moon Knight, in the past. now he's more like a ground-warfare-Iron Man.

[XPac]

i like the face plate (hated it, at first). i wonder if he uses gas grenades and what other capabilities the armor has. it's definately good to get away from the Batman motif. it hurt characters like Black Panther and Moon Knight, in the past. now he's more like a ground-warfare-Iron Man.

The thing is though, Nighhawk ended up being more like Hawkman than Batman. At least power wise. He was basically a flyier.

Giving him gear and grenades would probably make him more like Batman. I think personality wise, the new Nighthawk is actually a bit closer.

[Monty_Cristo]

The thing is though, Nighhawk ended up being more like Hawkman than Batman. At least power wise. He was basically a flyier.

Giving him gear and grenades would probably make him more like Batman. I think personality wise, the new Nighthawk is actually a bit closer.

either way, i like him in the role considerably more than Kyle.

[BugsySig]

The thing is though, Nighhawk ended up being more like Hawkman than Batman. At least power wise. He was basically a flyier.

Giving him gear and grenades would probably make him more like Batman. I think personality wise, the new Nighthawk is actually a bit closer.

True, although Casey said the new Nighthawk wasn't a flyer "yet"...not sure what that means, but it seems like he has more plans for this group. He said he is proudest of creating Joaquin as a character, so you know he would get a lot of the focus in any future books. I definitely see your point though, especially with those Nighthawk blades he was using in the fight.

[XPac]

either way, i like him in the role considerably more than Kyle.

I actually like Kyle a lot... but Kyle's clearly still around (and arguably still the central figure of the team), so I don't have a whole lot to complain about.

I do think they're trying to make a marvel Batman here though... and I'm not necessaily against the notion. But that can come off cheap if they don't handle it well.

[Monty_Cristo]

I actually like Kyle a lot... but Kyle's clearly still around (and arguably still the central figure of the team), so I don't have a whole lot to complain about.

I do think they're trying to make a marvel Batman here though... and I'm not necessaily against the notion. But that can come off cheap if they don't handle it well.


hey, it's the least they can do after killing Dwayne Taylor and replacing him with a thug (imo).

True, although Casey said the new Nighthawk wasn't a flyer "yet"...not sure what that means.

didn't Kyle's powers come from a serum? maybe he shares the serum with Joaquin. blood transplant, maybe?

[BugsySig]

I actually like Kyle a lot... but Kyle's clearly still around (and arguably still the central figure of the team), so I don't have a whole lot to complain about.

I do think they're trying to make a marvel Batman here though... and I'm not necessaily against the notion. But that can come off cheap if they don't handle it well.

Honestly, Spider-Man and Moon Knight are much closer to Batman than Joaquin. He's a regular joe, sure, but he doesn't necessarily want to wear a costume to fight injustice, he just has no other choice. There's no family death to avenge, just his own pride over the loss of his team in issue 1 and his family name because of his father. But if things had worked out differently, he would be happy to be Agent Pennysworth. I think that conflict should be central to the character in any future storylines. And if he ends up as another Batman clone, well it's not like DC doesn't have a dozen of those too...

[XPac]

hey, it's the least they can do after killing Dwayne Taylor and replacing him with a thug (imo).



didn't Kyle's powers come from a serum? maybe he shares the serum with Joaquin. blood transplant, maybe?

The serum has nothing to do with his flight though... it comes from mechanical wings.

The serum just gave Kyle slight superhuman strength when he's not in direct daylight. It's honestly barely worth giving him.

[drwho]

Wait so who ended up being the new guy in the night hawk costume.

[XPac]

Wait so who ended up being the new guy in the night hawk costume.

A SHIELD agent that showed up in the series.

[Monty_Cristo]

A SHIELD agent that showed up in the series.

a SHIELD agent who is related to someone in Richmond's life; basically his version of Lucius Fox. and, according to this series, he's someone that Kyle has been keeping an eye on.

[drwho]

a SHIELD agent who is related to someone in Richmond's life; basically his version of Lucius Fox. and, according to this series, he's someone that Kyle has been keeping an eye on.

The sheild agent was night hawks old business partners son. He appeared in the first Defenders series and i beleive ended up betraying Night hawk somehow.

[Monty_Cristo]

The sheild agent was night hawks old business partners son. He appeared in the first Defenders series and i beleive ended up betraying Night hawk somehow.

he was in league with the racist Sons of the Serpent; a sell-out in several ways.

[CMBMOOL]

That's it I'm getting this series once its' out in TPB form. :tongue:

Plus I would LOVE to see what PAD can do with these characters, since he had several chances with the original Defenders before. :redface:

[XPac]

That's it I'm getting this series once its' out in TPB form. :tongue:

Plus I would LOVE to see what PAD can do with these characters, since he had several chances with the original Defenders before. :redface:

Yeah, I sort of wonder how often they're going to show up in the She-Hulk book (assuming they show up at all).

Hopefully they'll show up there at least occasionally.

[The Lucky One]

I'll admit to being underwhelmed. I liked individual issues of the mini and I liked the ties to past Defenders continuity, but in the end, it's not really a story... it's the beginning setup of a story that may or may not ever be published. (See also: Loners, The.) In the end it took 6 issues for Yandroth to spout some cryptic nonsense, Kyle to get himself booted from the Initiative, and a team composed of the female versions/villainous counterparts/'70s throwbacks to form. I like Son of Satan and Shulkie and I'd love to read more about them, but if you're going to claim that they should have been the "real" Defenders all along because they're needed to save the universe, that needs to be the main story, not a vague promise that hey, we'll get to it someday, y'know, assuming this miniseries sells well enough. And if not, don't worry, some writer will come along in a few years and reveal that no wait, Doc Strange et al. were actually the real Defenders all along.

I dunno. Like I said, I really did enjoy large parts of the mini and I know Casey's generally a good writer, but the whole just feels like less than the sum of its parts. Anybody else feel the same way, or did I just not "get" it?

-D

[BugsySig]

he was in league with the racist Sons of the Serpent; a sell-out in several ways.

Joaquin's father, JC Pennysworth, ran Kyle's company for many years while he was out heroing/villaining after his father's death. Later, he became a self-hating racist who led the Sons of the Serpent. While his name was a reference to Alfred Pennyworth (and JC Penny), he actually preceded Lucious Fox by a few years. However, they were both created by the same writer who left Marvel for DC and created Fox while working on Batman. Joaquin was sponsored for membership in SHIELD by Richmond, which is why he was keeping tabs on him in the first place. It's an interesting connection to both Nighthawk and the Defenders that allows Joaquin to take on the mantle of Nighthawk without much argument from me.

Link to article on JC Pennysworth: here (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/pennysworthjc.htm)

[Monty_Cristo]

I'll admit to being underwhelmed. I liked individual issues of the mini and I liked the ties to past Defenders continuity, but in the end,

it was well drawn.

[Cthulhudrew]

i like the new Nighthawk. he reminds me of a less racist version of Supreme Power Nighthawk. he also reminds me of Night Thrasher (Dwayne).

I like him, too. Kyle as Nighthawk never really seemed to click, I don't think. There was just something about him that didn't take. At least not since his resurrection. I like the idea of legacy characters, so Joaquin is cool in that sense, as well. Plus I really like how Casey tied him in with Kyle and the Defenders' past.

I don't care much for the new Nighthawk's costume (nor Hellstorm's), but otherwise, I really like the new team. The only one I don't think fits too well is She-Hulk. I really like She-Hulk as a character, but I think she's not the best fit for this Defenders team. I'd almost rather have seen some other Hulk character join it (admittedly, no one comes to mind offhand).

[Cthulhudrew]

I think that was sort of the downside of how they wrote this book... they spent a lot of time on people that didn't really end up on the team.

True enough. I did really enjoy the second Defenders team Kyle assembled, though. I thought Atlas, Paladin, Junta, and Nighthawk really fit well together and would have enjoyed seeing more of their adventures.

[Cthulhudrew]

he was in league with the racist Sons of the Serpent; a sell-out in several ways.

He also drove Doc Eliot Franklin into a life of crime (as Thunderball) by stealing the patent for his gamma bomb. So he's not all bad (because then we'd never have the Wrecking Crew). :smile:

[Cthulhudrew]

Honestly, Spider-Man and Moon Knight are much closer to Batman than Joaquin.

Technically, wouldn't Joaquin be Nightwing, rather than Batman? As the "legacy" was passed on to him from the billionaire playboy Kyle.

[CMBMOOL]

I don't care much for the new Nighthawk's costume (nor Hellstorm's), but otherwise, I really like the new team. The only one I don't think fits too well is She-Hulk. I really like She-Hulk as a character, but I think she's not the best fit for this Defenders team. I'd almost rather have seen some other Hulk character join it (admittedly, no one comes to mind offhand).

Hey it would be great to see her have more ties to her much powerful cousin. So I can take what I can get. :biggrin:

[XPac]

Technically, wouldn't Joaquin be Nightwing, rather than Batman? As the "legacy" was passed on to him from the billionaire playboy Kyle.

The thing with Nightwing is that he never actually took on Batman's Legacy. He created his own.

[celticguy]

Honestly, Spider-Man and Moon Knight are much closer to Batman than Joaquin. He's a regular joe, sure, but he doesn't necessarily want to wear a costume to fight injustice, he just has no other choice. There's no family death to avenge, just his own pride over the loss of his team in issue 1 and his family name because of his father. But if things had worked out differently, he would be happy to be Agent Pennysworth. I think that conflict should be central to the character in any future storylines. And if he ends up as another Batman clone, well it's not like DC doesn't have a dozen of those too...

I would say Moonknight yes, spideman no (except fro the dead relative angle) Daredevil is closer than Spiderman.

Kyle could be be a Max Lord kind of character now. Not the shooting you in the head Max, the earlier one where he ran the League.

[Cthulhudrew]

The thing with Nightwing is that he never actually took on Batman's Legacy. He created his own.

He has taken on the Batman mantle on at least one occasion (Knightfall), and I believe others, but your point is taken.

In any event, I think the parallel is closer between Joaquin/Robin than Joaquin/Batman. Joaquin really doesn't have Batman's motivation, his background, or his obsession. While Kyle shares at least a few of those traits (and his Supreme-verse counterpart is clearly supposed to be the Batman parallel).

[protege]

Geez, i've been looking for this! i'll have to come back when i remember what i was going to say!

[Vic Vega]

I'll admit to being underwhelmed. I liked individual issues of the mini and I liked the ties to past Defenders continuity, but in the end, it's not really a story... it's the beginning setup of a story that may or may not ever be published. (See also: Loners, The.) In the end it took 6 issues for Yandroth to spout some cryptic nonsense, Kyle to get himself booted from the Initiative, and a team composed of the female versions/villainous counterparts/'70s throwbacks to form. I like Son of Satan and Shulkie and I'd love to read more about them, but if you're going to claim that they should have been the "real" Defenders all along because they're needed to save the universe, that needs to be the main story, not a vague promise that hey, we'll get to it someday, y'know, assuming this miniseries sells well enough. And if not, don't worry, some writer will come along in a few years and reveal that no wait, Doc Strange et al. were actually the real Defenders all along.

I dunno. Like I said, I really did enjoy large parts of the mini and I know Casey's generally a good writer, but the whole just feels like less than the sum of its parts. Anybody else feel the same way, or did I just not "get" it?

-D

I felt the same.

When I think of the Defenders I think of Doc Strange, Hulk and Sub-Mariner.

If they'd even given me a Defenders featuring Kyle, Hellcat, the Sam Parrington Valkerie and Gargoyle I'd of been happy.

This I don't see the point of. At all.

The only reaso I stuck with the series as long as I did was because I'm a fan of Kyle Richmond. And he ends up passing the mantle of Nighthawk to somebody else.

If they do make a sequel to this, I'm not buying it.

[Monty_Cristo]

I felt the same.

When I think of the Defenders I think of Doc Strange, Hulk and Sub-Mariner.

If they'd even given me a Defenders featuring Kyle, Hellcat, the Sam Parrington Valkerie and Gargoyle I'd of been happy.

This I don't see the point of. At all.

The only reaso I stuck with the series as long as I did was because I'm a fan of Kyle Richmond. And he ends up passing the mantle of Nighthawk to somebody else.

If they do make a sequel to this, I'm not buying it.

don't worry. i'll buy your issue.

[Monty_Cristo]

True enough. I did really enjoy the second Defenders team Kyle assembled, though. I thought Atlas, Paladin, Junta, and Nighthawk really fit well together and would have enjoyed seeing more of their adventures.

you still can. it's not like they actually fit the Defenders mold, anyways. they should be Sable's new Wild Pack or a new Outlaws team.

He also drove Doc Eliot Franklin into a life of crime (as Thunderball) by stealing the patent for his gamma bomb. So he's not all bad (because then we'd never have the Wrecking Crew). :smile:

they would have just recruited the Absorbing Man. :biggrin:

I like him, too. Kyle as Nighthawk never really seemed to click, I don't think. There was just something about him that didn't take. At least not since his resurrection. I like the idea of legacy characters, so Joaquin is cool in that sense, as well. Plus I really like how Casey tied him in with Kyle and the Defenders' past.

I don't care much for the new Nighthawk's costume (nor Hellstorm's), but otherwise, I really like the new team. The only one I don't think fits too well is She-Hulk. I really like She-Hulk as a character, but I think she's not the best fit for this Defenders team. I'd almost rather have seen some other Hulk character join it (admittedly, no one comes to mind offhand).

yeah, She-Hulk is a poor fit; mostly because she's a lot more popular and established than the others. i hope that the team continues to evolve and they find a replacement for her (Geiger, maybe?).

[BugsySig]

you still can. it's not like they actually fit the Defenders mold, anyways. they should be Sable's new Wild Pack or a new Outlaws team.

That is a great idea...I could definitely see that grouping together again. Add in Solo and/or Deathlok maybe? Mercs for Hire.

yeah, She-Hulk is a poor fit; mostly because she's a lot more popular and established than the others. i hope that the team continues to evolve and they find a replacement for her (Geiger, maybe?).

Or A-Bomb?

[Monty_Cristo]

That is a great idea...I could definitely see that grouping together again. Add in Solo and/or Deathlok maybe? Mercs for Hire.

Solo would be cool! i like his new look. i don't know Deathlok(s) status.
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/191231-73535-solo_super.jpg

Or A-Bomb?

i don't know A-Bomb. is he/she a Hulk analog?

[XPac]

Solo would be cool! i like his new look. i don't know Deathlok(s) status.
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/191231-73535-solo_super.jpg



i don't know A-Bomb. is he/she a Hulk analog?

A-Bomb is what Rick Jones is calling himself now that he's Abomination.

[Monty_Cristo]

A-Bomb is what Rick Jones is calling himself now that he's Abomination.

where's Blonsky? i don't really like the idea of Rick as "A-Bomb."

[XPac]

where's Blonsky? i don't really like the idea of Rick as "A-Bomb."

He was the first casualty of Loeb's Red Hulk.

[Cthulhudrew]

you still can. it's not like they actually fit the Defenders mold, anyways. they should be Sable's new Wild Pack or a new Outlaws team.

True, they weren't really Defenders. Your suggestions are good ones, fitting those mercenary types. Sadly, I think all three will go back into comic Limbo once more. At least until Fabian Nicieza or Priest come back to Marvel.

yeah, She-Hulk is a poor fit; mostly because she's a lot more popular and established than the others. i hope that the team continues to evolve and they find a replacement for her (Geiger, maybe?).

I wouldn't mind Doc Samson- I think he kind of fits the Defenders concept.

[Frank]

I felt the same.

When I think of the Defenders I think of Doc Strange, Hulk and Sub-Mariner.

If they'd even given me a Defenders featuring Kyle, Hellcat, the Sam Parrington Valkerie and Gargoyle I'd of been happy.

This I don't see the point of. At all.

The only reaso I stuck with the series as long as I did was because I'm a fan of Kyle Richmond. And he ends up passing the mantle of Nighthawk to somebody else.

If they do make a sequel to this, I'm not buying it.

I sort of felt Casey made all these weird decisions just for the sake of being different instead of just telling good super-hero stories. He did that with Earth's Mightiest; why didn't he the same here. Fans are craving for old school super-heroes not cynical super-hero deconstructions. If there's a Defenders ongoing Casey should go back to the plan. And for God's sake strip Son of Satan of that drag queen outfit.

[protege]

That is a great idea...I could definitely see that grouping together again. Add in Solo and/or Deathlok maybe? Mercs for Hire.



Or A-Bomb?

i think he'd clash with krang, in more ways than one. speaking of Krang, I'm starting to warm up to him, although i don't like the fact that he slices and dices his way through everything with those steak knives of his.

[Vic Vega]

And for God's sake strip Son of Satan of that drag queen outfit.

I don't think you can get away with having a guy with a pentagram on his bare chest, these days.

You'll notice he not running around with a trident anymore, either.

Folks are bit toucher about that stuff than they used to be.

[Cthulhudrew]

speaking of Krang, I'm starting to warm up to him, although i don't like the fact that he slices and dices his way through everything with those steak knives of his.

Agreed. I think Casey's use of Krang was one of the more inspired choices in Last Defenders, and wish we'd gotten more of a chance to see him in action. His previous portrayals that I've seen have mostly placed him in the "generic villain" mode, but Casey is playing with the aspects of his established history that should and do set him apart from his other Atlantean brethren, and I think it was a bold and interesting approach.

Agreed about the swords, though. I don't much care for the way in which they're drawn, mostly. They look weird. Plus, I can't imagine that slashing weapons would be terribly effective underwater, so they don't really seem like something an Atlantean would be using (especially as curved as they are). If they were more spear-like, or stabbity type swords, I think they would be more appropriate.

[XPac]

Was there any previous indication that Krang had any tendencies to playing a hero (or anti-hero)?

In general, I'm not a huge fan of the trend to turn a perfectly good villain into a hero. We need villains too.

[Magneto Rocks]

Poor Peter David. Thanks to Jeph Loeb, we need a reason for She-Hulk to be willing to work with Stark, so David manages to create one.

...Then it gets torn up in this mini for no clear reason other than because a writer decided so, and now we're back to having absolutely no reason again- even LESS reason now. I was hoping this issue would correct that but, nope, it seems Casey *did* decide to intervene purely in order to make the continuity questionable again.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

Was there any previous indication that Krang had any tendencies to playing a hero (or anti-hero)?

In general, I'm not a huge fan of the trend to turn a perfectly good villain into a hero. We need villains too.

Krang was a war hero and champion of his people, and then Namor returned. Krang's fiancee left him for Namor, Namor regained royal power, and took military control from Krang, made him his second in command, and then changed his mind about what he wanted to do, making him cancel invasion plans. Krang was always someone who wanted to be a hero, just for Atlantis rather than the Earth or life as a whole. He was a good villain, but only because Namor turned him into one. With the amount of switching back and forth between the side of the heroes and villains that Namor does, it does make sense that his opposite number might do the same. Krang is like a lot of villains in that he sees himself as a hero and a patriot, like Super Skrull, not as a criminal or villain.

[XPac]

Poor Peter David. Thanks to Jeph Loeb, we need a reason for She-Hulk to be willing to work with Stark, so David manages to create one.

...Then it gets torn up in this mini for no clear reason other than because a writer decided so, and now we're back to having absolutely no reason again- even LESS reason now. I was hoping this issue would correct that but, nope, it seems Casey *did* decide to intervene purely in order to make the continuity questionable again.

Blame Loeb. He's the one that decided to throw Jen into service for Stark without any explanation in the first place (or bothering to tell the She-Hulk writer). Casey and Peter David seem to be on the same page in regards to Jen's attitude toward Stark. The only book people are questioning is Loebs.

[Magneto Rocks]

Blame Loeb. He's the one that decided to throw Jen into service for Stark without any explanation in the first place (or bothering to tell the She-Hulk writer). Casey and Peter David seem to be on the same page in regards to Jen's attitude toward Stark.

I do blame Loeb, but at least David tried to create an explanation for it regardless of his own feelings. Casey just decidied to get rid of it because he preferred his own feelings to the story.

[XPac]

I do blame Loeb, but at least David tried to create an explanation for it regardless of his own feelings. Casey just decidied to get rid of it because he preferred his own feelings to the story.

If Casey did what Loeb did without consulting the She-Hulk writer, I'll agree with you. But as long as he and David are on the same page about the direction of the character, I'm perfectly fine with him resetting Jen back to where David wanted the character to be anyways. No sense in allowing Loeb to dictate the characters direction when he hasn't even bothered explaining Jen's side of things anyways.

[protege]

Agreed. I think Casey's use of Krang was one of the more inspired choices in Last Defenders, and wish we'd gotten more of a chance to see him in action. His previous portrayals that I've seen have mostly placed him in the "generic villain" mode, but Casey is playing with the aspects of his established history that should and do set him apart from his other Atlantean brethren, and I think it was a bold and interesting approach.

Agreed about the swords, though. I don't much care for the way in which they're drawn, mostly. They look weird. Plus, I can't imagine that slashing weapons would be terribly effective underwater, so they don't really seem like something an Atlantean would be using (especially as curved as they are). If they were more spear-like, or stabbity type swords, I think they would be more appropriate.
Actually- I'm not clear on Krang's new status- I know he underwent genetic modification to "be like Namor", but what does that mean, exactly? I haven't seen him so much as stick his big toe in the water since then.

[Cthulhudrew]

Actually- I'm not clear on Krang's new status- I know he underwent genetic modification to "be like Namor", but what does that mean, exactly? I haven't seen him so much as stick his big toe in the water since then.

My understanding from issue #6 is just that he had himself modified so that he can survive outside of water as well as he does beneath it. IE, he's now amphibious and doesn't need the bit bell helmet (or other devices) in order to survive on the surface.

He's seemingly done this to make his war against the surface worlders easier to accomplish.

That, and he's gotten himself some rocket boots to let him fly like Namor's little ankle-wings do.

[XPac]

Krang was a war hero and champion of his people, and then Namor returned. Krang's fiancee left him for Namor, Namor regained royal power, and took military control from Krang, made him his second in command, and then changed his mind about what he wanted to do, making him cancel invasion plans. Krang was always someone who wanted to be a hero, just for Atlantis rather than the Earth or life as a whole. He was a good villain, but only because Namor turned him into one. With the amount of switching back and forth between the side of the heroes and villains that Namor does, it does make sense that his opposite number might do the same. Krang is like a lot of villains in that he sees himself as a hero and a patriot, like Super Skrull, not as a criminal or villain.

Well, if it fits the characters history and characterization, that's fine.

To me it sort of came off like a somewhat transparent attempt to give the team their own Wolverine (in a convinient Namor-like package to keep with the Defenders theme).

[Cthulhudrew]

To me it sort of came off like a somewhat transparent attempt to give the team their own Wolverine (in a convinient Namor-like package to keep with the Defenders theme).

Namor was Wolverine before Len Wein ever conceived of the character. :tongue:

One of the things I really like about this particular group of Defenders is the potential for interplay between Hellstrom and Krang. I think that's one reason why She-Hulk doesn't seem to fit so well to me- she's such a died in the wool good guy (don't get me wrong, I like She-Hulk), whereas all the others- including Joaquin, to an extent- seem much more deliciously grey in terms of ethics/motives. She-Hulk contrasts with them too much.

I suppose that's a good thing, to an extent, and can definitely see some strengths she brings to the team besides just being a powerhouse (especially her legal skills, if they are treading the grey areas of the SHRA), but I can't help but feel someone else might have been a better fit.

More and more, I'm thinking Samson would be a really good fill-in for She-Hulk. Both for the Hulk connections, the powerhouse role, and for an ability to try and make these disparate personalities mesh. Plus, I just really like the guy (and especially what Ellis was doing with him in TBolts recently).

[BugsySig]

Namor was Wolverine before Len Wein ever conceived of the character. :tongue:

One of the things I really like about this particular group of Defenders is the potential for interplay between Hellstrom and Krang. I think that's one reason why She-Hulk doesn't seem to fit so well to me- she's such a died in the wool good guy (don't get me wrong, I like She-Hulk), whereas all the others- including Joaquin, to an extent- seem much more deliciously grey in terms of ethics/motives. She-Hulk contrasts with them too much.

I suppose that's a good thing, to an extent, and can definitely see some strengths she brings to the team besides just being a powerhouse (especially her legal skills, if they are treading the grey areas of the SHRA), but I can't help but feel someone else might have been a better fit.

More and more, I'm thinking Samson would be a really good fill-in for She-Hulk. Both for the Hulk connections, the powerhouse role, and for an ability to try and make these disparate personalities mesh. Plus, I just really like the guy (and especially what Ellis was doing with him in TBolts recently).

Personally I was not a fan of the Krang inclusion at first, but he has grown on me a bit (I agree with the blades comment, though). I thought if Casey wanted an elemental from WWII era ala Namor, he should have kept Blazing Skull (who is freaking hilarious). But I guess Skull would have clashed with Hellstrom's power-set.

Despite the fact that She-Hulk is the obvious fill-in for the Hulk, and the good interaction she and Kyle seem to have, she does not seem to fit very well as others stated. With Kyle as the money and motivation, but not opperating as a hero, their interaction doesn't seem as important. Of course other than Samson and A-Bomb, I can't think of any other Gamma-powered power-houses that could fit the mold Casey created for this team.

I also would have liked to have seen a Valkyrie counterpart. I think Dani Moonstar would have fit nicely, with or without the Valkyrie powers. And any future series with this team needs to have some Hellcat and Sam Parrington involvement.

[Grapeweasel]

I really hated the first 5 issues, but this one almost made it all come together.

Though the person who designed the new Son of Satan costume needs to have his pencils broken.

[Comet Man]

I sort of felt Casey made all these weird decisions just for the sake of being different instead of just telling good super-hero stories. He did that with Earth's Mightiest; why didn't he the same here. Fans are craving for old school super-heroes not cynical super-hero deconstructions. If there's a Defenders ongoing Casey should go back to the plan. And for God's sake strip Son of Satan of that drag queen outfit.

I don't get it. In one sentence you're calling for old school superheroics, then the next sentence you're calling for Hellstrom to ditch the old school superhero outfit, and put his black leather, sado-masochistic, drag queen outfit back on.

I'll take what he's wearing now. He's trying to be a good guy again, and this costume works.

[XPac]

Personally I was not a fan of the Krang inclusion at first, but he has grown on me a bit (I agree with the blades comment, though). I thought if Casey wanted an elemental from WWII era ala Namor, he should have kept Blazing Skull (who is freaking hilarious). But I guess Skull would have clashed with Hellstrom's power-set.

Despite the fact that She-Hulk is the obvious fill-in for the Hulk, and the good interaction she and Kyle seem to have, she does not seem to fit very well as others stated. With Kyle as the money and motivation, but not opperating as a hero, their interaction doesn't seem as important. Of course other than Samson and A-Bomb, I can't think of any other Gamma-powered power-houses that could fit the mold Casey created for this team.

I also would have liked to have seen a Valkyrie counterpart. I think Dani Moonstar would have fit nicely, with or without the Valkyrie powers. And any future series with this team needs to have some Hellcat and Sam Parrington involvement.

Despite not being an active hero, I do think interaction with Kyle is still very important. He might arguably be the main character despite no longer being an active hero. Him and Jen were arguably the backbone of the book.

I don't think this book needs to be TBolts. I think there is room in the Defenders for REAL honest to goodness heroes. Not just anti-heroes or villains with agendas picking up a new hobby, but rather actual heroes doing the right things for the right reasons. Someone like Jen, along with Kyle running things, will keep the book from sliding into TBolt territory.

[protege]

Namor was Wolverine before Len Wein ever conceived of the character. :tongue:

One of the things I really like about this particular group of Defenders is the potential for interplay between Hellstrom and Krang. I think that's one reason why She-Hulk doesn't seem to fit so well to me- she's such a died in the wool good guy (don't get me wrong, I like She-Hulk), whereas all the others- including Joaquin, to an extent- seem much more deliciously grey in terms of ethics/motives. She-Hulk contrasts with them too much.

I suppose that's a good thing, to an extent, and can definitely see some strengths she brings to the team besides just being a powerhouse (especially her legal skills, if they are treading the grey areas of the SHRA), but I can't help but feel someone else might have been a better fit.

More and more, I'm thinking Samson would be a really good fill-in for She-Hulk. Both for the Hulk connections, the powerhouse role, and for an ability to try and make these disparate personalities mesh. Plus, I just really like the guy (and especially what Ellis was doing with him in TBolts recently).
Well, if samson is who we think he is, I wouldn't mind seeing THAT guy on the team.

[BugsySig]

Well, if samson is who we think he is, I wouldn't mind seeing THAT guy on the team.

for the love of all things holy...no...just, no.

[LungerTony]

I certainly like the team: new Nighthawk, Shulkie, Krang, and Hellstrom. I would love to see this team in further adventures and all.
But the actual Yandroth story was a bit of a drag and a lil confusing to me. And my biggest problem - it was never concluded in the mini. Just left open to be continued somewhere else god knows when.
But the team itself, awesome. I want to see them again in the future fo sho.

[CMBMOOL]

Blame Loeb. He's the one that decided to throw Jen into service for Stark without any explanation in the first place (or bothering to tell the She-Hulk writer). Casey and Peter David seem to be on the same page in regards to Jen's attitude toward Stark. The only book people are questioning is Loebs.
I have to say I agree with you, because I can trust Peter David and Joe Casey better with the She-Hulk, then I can trust Jeph Loeb with her. :biggrin:

However, David is going to be using the Lady Liberators in the She-Hulk in a couple of months, so that must mean that maybe he setting up something for that team-up ? :confused:

[Frank]

I don't get it. In one sentence you're calling for old school superheroics, then the next sentence you're calling for Hellstrom to ditch the old school superhero outfit, and put his black leather, sado-masochistic, drag queen outfit back on.

I'll take what he's wearing now. He's trying to be a good guy again, and this costume works.

You're comments are baffling. Son of Satan is the guy with the fork and the star on his chest. That's part of what him cool. I'm pretty sure that any good writers(like Johns for instance) would make that work. No you're way of thinking would be similar to putting "Wolverine in a policeman outfit because he's trying to be a good guy now. And no more claws, too nasty and offensive". geez

[Frank]

Krang was a war hero and champion of his people, and then Namor returned. Krang's fiancee left him for Namor, Namor regained royal power, and took military control from Krang, made him his second in command, and then changed his mind about what he wanted to do, making him cancel invasion plans. Krang was always someone who wanted to be a hero, just for Atlantis rather than the Earth or life as a whole. He was a good villain, but only because Namor turned him into one. With the amount of switching back and forth between the side of the heroes and villains that Namor does, it does make sense that his opposite number might do the same. Krang is like a lot of villains in that he sees himself as a hero and a patriot, like Super Skrull, not as a criminal or villain.

With that line of thought, any villains could turn into a hero.

And i'm calling Krang turning into a hero as total bull**** by Casey.

[XPac]

I have to say I agree with you, because I can trust Peter David and Joe Casey better with the She-Hulk, then I can trust Jeph Loeb with her. :biggrin:

However, David is going to be using the Lady Liberators in the She-Hulk in a couple of months, so that must mean that maybe he setting up something for that team-up ? :confused:

I wonder what the time frame of the Hulk book is. One might think it would make more sense for She-Hulk to ask for assistance from her teammates rather from the Lady Liberators... though Hellstrom aside, I'm not sure her team would frankly last 2 seconds against Red Hulk, so may be it does make sense.

[celticguy]

Krang should be pretty tough though. Not Hulk tough but tough enough to get a few shots in.


If the lady liberators are Sue Storm's relief teams designed to help those hurt by superhero activity then it would fit that they respond to a Rulk rampage.

[celticguy]

With that line of thought, any villains could turn into a hero.
.

that has happened before Hawkeye was a villian, so was Sandman and he became a reserve avenger for a while. Magneto was an Xman, it happens.

Night hawk himself wasa badguy at the start.

[XPac]

that has happened before Hawkeye was a villian, so was Sandman and he became a reserve avenger for a while. Magneto was an Xman, it happens.

Night hawk himself wasa badguy at the start.

Yeah, it's been done before. And in a lot of cases done very well.

Still, you'd think there would be enough unused heroes out there to the point where it wouldn't be necessary to flip a perfectly good villain.

[BugsySig]

I wonder what the time frame of the Hulk book is. One might think it would make more sense for She-Hulk to ask for assistance from her teammates rather from the Lady Liberators... though Hellstrom aside, I'm not sure her team would frankly last 2 seconds against Red Hulk, so may be it does make sense.

That was my question...it goes back to the continuity issue making the rounds on the boards...If RULK takes place before the Last defenders series or even in-between the story. Like between Kyle's encounter with the future version and when he actually recruits Shulkie back into the fold in issue 6? But I guess there's the issue of the appology note...so I don't know.