Better Daredevil run: Bendis or Miller

[Seraku]

of these two writers who arguably have produced the best and most interesting Daredevil stories of the past 30 years, who do you guys prefer?


also I'm not counting Brubaker since in my opinion his run is inferior to both and it's too short to really accurately compare

[Leocomix]

Nocenti/JR Jr/Williamson

[marvell2100]

Miller. As a matter of opinion I think that he had two very great, very distinctive runs. I mean it's almost like you weren't even reading about a super hero. Just a normal guy with some serious crap going on in his life.

[B. Kuwanger]

Honestly, I preferred Roger McKenzie on the first Visionaries to Miller's first run. Bendis DD was, for me, *that* run. Comics wouldn't be what they are to me if not for it.

[DDM]

Frank Miller & Klaus Jansen (sp?) followed by Ann Nocenti & John Romita Jr. Elektra is to Typhoid Mary...

[bebopeva88]

Bendis' is more enjoyable, and reads much better to a modern reader, but it was only made possible by Miller's run, and wouldn't exist without it, so that by default to some would make Miller's "better" because it was so pioneering.

Having read Miller's run well after it came out, and having read Bendis' as it was coming out provides a unique perspective. I'm sure I would've been totally floored by Miller's run had I read it as it was new, but reading it after so much of its groundbreaking material was already canon (Elektra, The Hand, the more gritty, crime approach, Matt's ninja sensibilities, Kingpin as a real threat, Bullseye as a real threat, etc.) it merely read as a great run, not one that totally blew me away. Taking into account all that it did though makes you really appreciate what Miller did.

Bendis took many of the toys that Miller created and really did something special with his own unique approach. To me it reads better, and is written in a much more modern style, whereas Miller's reads more like someone trying to break out of a Silver Agey type of writing style, and attempting to work towards something new.

Short answer: if somehow, you had read DD from issue #1-current without anything coloring your perceptions, Miller's run would be better. If you read both on their own, already knowing all about the current things in the title that Miller introduced and made popular, then I think Bendis' is better, because it's impossible to fully appreciate what Miller did because it's simply not new to you. You certainly can appreciate it to a large degree, but not as much as if Miller had literally changed a swashbuckling hero with a flagging title into a darker, much more unique title before your very eyes, bringing in such sweeping new changes.

[Babylon23]

Definitely Miller. Bendis run was very good, but Miller's run is defining. His second run, Born Again, is IMO the best DD story ever written.

I'm also a big fan of the Nocenti/JRJR run, which I'd rank 2nd behind Miller.

[earl]

If Frank Miller doesn't do that run on Daredevil, I tend to doubt that the character would have really made it on much further. Who is to say what would have happened to the Daredevil character, I tend to doubt that it would have kept going. Miller reinvented Daredevil and pretty much setup everything that has been done with the character since.

I think you can argue that what Miller did with Jansen and later with Mazzuchelli on Daredevil pretty much re-wrote even how to do Batman for that matter, as he took the same look and feel to that character and that pretty much has been standard operating procedure ever since. I think Dave Mazzuchelli's artwork on Born Again and Batman: Year One is a really influential style in the way he drew urban areas and city landscapes.

Bendis' run on Daredevil is a good read, but it is building off of what Miller had already done. Bendis has his own style and definitely can put some humor in a dark storyline, but I don't think he reinvented the wheel like Miller did. It is still if you think Matt Murdock has had it bad, wait till you see what I do to him and it still echoed stuff like the death of Elektra or Born Again. It isn't really something new. I could see some newer readers responding more to his run, as the decompressed cinematic style and not having to create books to a 'comic code' has a more modern appeal. That is just a difference in how comics are made now and the age difference of the audience.

[Expletive Deleted]

Miller, simply because I don't think Bendis managed to top "Born Again."

That said, I think Bendis's run holds together better as a whole. Omar Karindu wrote a nice piece on it for the CSBG (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2007/12/28/omar-karindu-on-bendis-daredevil-some-introductory-remarks/) blog.

[$5 Milkshake]

Miller, simply because I don't think Bendis managed to top "Born Again."

What a fantastic answer. I agree completely!

Born Again was comic book gold.

I do LOVE Bendis' Daredevil too though.

[rondre sleazde]

bendis most def

[bebopeva88]

Miller, simply because I don't think Bendis managed to top "Born Again."


It's not really a fair comparison though, is it? If Bendis were to come back on DD soon and do a 7 parter for an encore, then you could compare. As it stands though, Born Again isn't part of Miller's run, it's just an arc done several years after his run.

I agree with you that none of Bendis' DD topped Miller's Born Again, but using Born Again isn't really valid in a Miller run vs. Bendis run debate. You wouldn't really include PAD's Tempest Fugit arc done years after his Incredible Hulk run as part of said Incredible Hulk run; same thing applies here.

[$5 Milkshake]

It's not really a fair comparison though, is it? If Bendis were to come back on DD soon and do a 7 parter for an encore, then you could compare. As it stands though, Born Again isn't part of Miller's run, it's just an arc done several years after his run.

I agree with you that none of Bendis' DD topped Miller's Born Again, but using Born Again isn't really valid in a Miller run vs. Bendis run debate. You wouldn't really include PAD's Tempest Fugit arc done years after his Incredible Hulk run as part of said Incredible Hulk run; same thing applies here.

lol I'm....pretty sure you can count whatever you want. I dont think there's a set of RULES to abide by here. I think we're judging a body of work completely, as opposed to a consecutive string of issues.

[Floyd The Barber]

Nocenti/JR Jr/Williamson

Thank you. I thought there were others like me out there. :biggrin:

But Miller's is a close close close (super close) second. Bendis's doesn't even come close. I'm no Bendis hater either. I find Bendis's Avengers and Secret Invasion highly enjoyable. I couldn't make it through his DD run.

I just prefer a focus on Daredevil's blind superhero aspect, more than a focus on the Emo Perry Mason aspect of Daredevil.

[Seraku]

this thread reminds me to eventually track down and finish the rest of Nocenti's run, only read the typhoid mary trade and a hand ful of issues.

anyways in terms of pure complete runs, from what I've read I go with bendis because I actually enjoyed the "emo perry mason" aspect, made me actually care about the character 100% instead of just his alter ego, normally when writers go that route they pratfall but Bendis to me got it down pat.

though in terms of single arcs, Born Again is unmatched

[ThePhenom]

I felt started a new thread was redundant and this is vaguely on topic (or at least on topic of learning the greatness of at least one run).

Wiki credits Bendis on Daredevil (vol. 2) #16-19, 26-50, 56-81 but the omnibus states "Collects Daredevil #16-19, #26-60" so can anyone tell me what's going on with #50-55 and whether I will miss much with the lack of #61-81?

[Skeets]

Nonuple post. :eek:

[PLEDGE]

ive had millers omnibus for almost a year now and im only half way through it. its ok, but nothing really stands out to me. i understand he revolutionaized the character...but nothing really makes me want to read the next issue other than to finish the omnibus and see what the fuss is all about. i dunno, i guess im just not a miller fan..altho i do love batman: year one

[Expletive Deleted]

I felt started a new thread was redundant and this is vaguely on topic (or at least on topic of learning the greatness of at least one run).

Wiki credits Bendis on Daredevil (vol. 2) #16-19, 26-50, 56-81 but the omnibus states "Collects Daredevil #16-19, #26-60" so can anyone tell me what's going on with #50-55 and whether I will miss much with the lack of #61-81?#51-55 is David Mack's second Echo story, "Vision Quest." For what it's worth, the solicits on Marvel's site say it's not included in the omnibus.

As for #61-81 . . . I have to assume it'll collected in a second omnibus. They're explicitly referring to the omnibus as "Volume One," at any rate.

[ThePhenom]

Apologies for the amount of posts, it wasn't showing up on my computer but I felt like it would eventually.

Yeah, I forgot to check Marvel instead of Amazon, figured it would just be a mistake. Hopefully it'll come out as a second omnibus but I assumed Marvel just always had either Vol. 1 or #1 after their solicits on their site.

It just seemed to be the case, here's hoping though so I can get another Cap omnibus and these two Daredevil ones.

[Expletive Deleted]

It's not really a fair comparison though, is it? If Bendis were to come back on DD soon and do a 7 parter for an encore, then you could compare. As it stands though, Born Again isn't part of Miller's run, it's just an arc done several years after his run.

I agree with you that none of Bendis' DD topped Miller's Born Again, but using Born Again isn't really valid in a Miller run vs. Bendis run debate. You wouldn't really include PAD's Tempest Fugit arc done years after his Incredible Hulk run as part of said Incredible Hulk run; same thing applies here.If it helps, I was also taking Bendis's DAREDEVIL: NINJA into account. Heh.

Anyway. I was looking at their total bodies of work, rather than just their primary, mostly contiguous runs. If Miller's work after his first run were an afterthought, I could see excluding it. But since it's his most important, influential work with the character, I feel like I can't. To me, that seems more fair. Personal preference.

[Matt Linton]

I would say that Bendis/Maleev barely edges out Miller/Janson which barely edges out Nocenti/JRjr/Williamson which could be overtaken by Brubaker/Lark.

And "Born Again" tops all of them.

[B. Kuwanger]

Born Again is pretty amazing, definitely in my top 10 of all time for story arcs, but I read Year One first so I guess it doesn't seem as special to me. And plus Miller's comment on why he undid the lawyer thing just annoys me.

I didn't read the issues with JRjr, but Nocenti's run otherwise sucked kind of hard, and was twice as wimpy as the X-Men were with her as editor, which is something.

[Matt Linton]

If you didn't read the JRjr issues with Nocenti, then you really haven't read the best of her run.

[bebopeva88]

lol I'm....pretty sure you can count whatever you want. I dont think there's a set of RULES to abide by here. I think we're judging a body of work completely, as opposed to a consecutive string of issues.

If you're using the word "run" then no, you can't, and that's what was used in the thread title. The word inherently refers to consecutive issues. If you're using certain terms, then by definition, the meaning of the words gives you the rules. Just as you can't call a standalone issue an arc, you can't call two stints by the same writer years apart a run. For example, taking Claremont's return to Uncanny and calling that part of his original (re: good) run isn't something you can do when using the term "run". Complete body of work on Uncanny, yes. Run, no.

To give Miller an edge over Bendis for coming back to Daredevil years later for an encore is a bit unfair to Bendis. As I said, if Bendis were to come back on DD and do a 7 parter (or any writing stint more than a couple of issues) like Miller did with Born Again, then Born Again can come into the equation.

If it helps, I was also taking Bendis's DAREDEVIL: NINJA into account. Heh.


Ewww. That was a mess. Bendis' worst work maybe ever, and Rob Haynes *shudder* on art.

[Will.S]

Ewww. That was a mess. Bendis' worst work maybe ever, and Rob Haynes *shudder* on art.I remember Bendis saying that Rob Haynes pretty much sabotaged that book but he doesn't hold any grudges against Rob.

As for the topic, it's a tough one. I've really enjoyed Bendis's Daredevil but I haven't re-read his run in a long time so my memory becomes a bit rusty. I'll likely revisit his run when it comes out in Omnibus, as for Miller's DD I only read it in small chunks. I also haven't read the entirety of Born again but I have the first Omnibus so I'll eventually delve into that, I'll have to revisit this topic when I have a more informed opinion.

[TuPeT]

I personally like Bendis and Brubaker so much, but if wasn't for Miller Daredevil wouldn't be half of what it is today.

[DC906270-BIL]

Frank Miller all the way.

[marvell2100]

This is no knock against Bendis but again it has to be Miller. Without Miller setting DD down the path he did, a lot of these other creators runs may not have happened.

[Leocomix]

It's unfair because the Nocenti/JR Jr/Williamson run has never been reprinted whereas Miller's and Bendis' have been. I'll say this: it's JR Jr/Williamson work on Nocenti that made Miller want to work with them for Man Without Fear. Also Williamson won awards as best inker during that time.

[celticguy]

It is Miller Time.

[Expletive Deleted]

It's unfair because the Nocenti/JR Jr/Williamson run has never been reprinted whereas Miller's and Bendis' have been.The full run hasn't been reprinted, but the most important bit (#254-#257 and #259-263) has.

[Skeets]

If you're using the word "run" then no, you can't, and that's what was used in the thread title. The word inherently refers to consecutive issues. If you're using certain terms, then by definition, the meaning of the words gives you the rules. Just as you can't call a standalone issue an arc, you can't call two stints by the same writer years apart a run. For example, taking Claremont's return to Uncanny and calling that part of his original (re: good) run isn't something you can do when using the term "run". Complete body of work on Uncanny, yes. Run, no.
So then which Bendis run are you using to compare to Miller's, Daredevil v2 #16-19, #26-50, or #56-81?

[bebopeva88]

So then which Bendis run are you using to compare to Miller's, Daredevil v2 #16-19, #26-50, or #56-81?

#26-50, 56-81. There's not a multi year gap between it, and the story picks up in 56 after the events of 50. It's a singular run that had a break in it for effect (with the 1 year gap), and presumably, to let Bendis/Maleev have a breather.

I wouldn't say #16-19 is part of the overall run (or a run at all; it's an arc), as it wasn't written with the big plan in mind regarding where Bendis was going with the book, and they were done before Bendis was officially the ongoing writer.

[bebopeva88]

I remember Bendis saying that Rob Haynes pretty much sabotaged that book but he doesn't hold any grudges against Rob.

Heh, really? I'd love to read/hear him say that. I just remember Bendis pimping him prior to it coming out, and I was wondering if I had gone insane, as it was possibly the worst comic art I had ever seen.

[Skeets]

#26-50, 56-81. There's not a multi year gap between it, and the story picks up in 56 after the events of 50. It's a singular run that had a break in it for effect (with the 1 year gap), and presumably, to let Bendis/Maleev have a breather.

I wouldn't say #16-19 is part of the overall run (or a run at all; it's an arc), as it wasn't written with the big plan in mind regarding where Bendis was going with the book, and they were done before Bendis was officially the ongoing writer.
Well since the topic said "run" you can't do that because run inherently refers to consecutive issues. :wink:

[bebopeva88]

Well since the topic said "run" you can't do that because run inherently refers to consecutive issues. :wink:

I'm saying that for all intents and purposes, they are consecutive issues. :wink:

Just because a Mack arc takes place in the middle of the run, either for dramatic effect with the one year jump and/or to give Bendis/Maleev a break, you can't say Bendis had 2 runs on the book. A run inherently does mean consecutive issues, or at least as close to it as can be done. Just because there's slight exceptions that prove the rule, doesn't change anything.

[Brian Cronin]

Bendis had a great run on the book, but Miller had an amazing run on the book (and if you count Born Again as a separate run, I'd say Miller has the TWO best runs on the title).

-Brian

[Monty_Cristo]

Bendis brought a lot of Daredevil's rogues gallery down. Brubaker, at least, developed Mr. Fear. i give the nod to Brubaker. i haven't read any of Miller's run.

[Jim Thompson]

Miller -- no contest. I think Brubaker's current run is better than Bendis'.

[reddog]

Millers writings were the best and i never really got as into DD again until Kevin Smiths run. Bendis is a funny one for me because im always on the verge of dropping his books but somehow at the very last second change my mind. Brubakers DD sucks, he should stick with Cap and even that is getting redundent.

[Seraku]

Well Brubaker's prison arc was one of my faves, but I really disliked the Europe arc, everything after that has gotten consistently better imho though

[Libaax]

Miller run was amazing. The Bullseye point of view issue where he killed Elektra was great. Born Again wasnt bad either ;)

I rate his run as one of the best ever in superhero comics. It made me DD fan and no one has ever since been near that run.

Not even Brubaker and Bendis run was far from that level . Half of the run was only decent and some was alright. Only two things are memorable from Bendis run, DD becoming the Kingpin and Maleev art thats all.

Brubaker post Europe arc shows Miller potential. Hope he gets the time and freedom he needs.

[Gloria]

i haven't read any of Miller's run.

Monty, I recommend you to give a chance to Miller's DD whenever you have the chance (there's probably some stuff available in your local library). His two runs in DD are just friggin' a-we-so-me, and what defined the hero as we know him nowadays.

Personally, I think DD is about the bestest thing Miller has ever done, up to date. Even above "The Dark Knight" and "Ronin".

[marvell2100]

I also loved Millers take on the Punisher in his first run. That would have been great if he could have written the Punisher for a while.

[Billy Parker]

Bendis DD is clearly better than Miller's. People are too scared to say Miller's isn't as good just because it's "old."

Bendis is much better done, much more enjoyable. Better written, better art, more creative, even more epic with Kingpin getting taken out by his own son?!?! Freaking epic! DD's secret ID is OUT to everyone?! Awesome. DD takes over the underworld. And that second to last arc where they are telling stories of DD and they meet that "little devil character" was amazing. Plus he put him in jail. The credit for Brubaker's first arc in jail has to go to Bendis.

Brubakers DD sucks, he should stick with Cap and even that is getting redundent.

Finally a voice of reason. Totally agree.

[marvell2100]

Bendis DD is clearly better than Miller's. People are too scared to say Miller's isn't as good just because it's "old."

Bendis is much better done, much more enjoyable. Better written, better art, more creative, even more epic with Kingpin getting taken out by his own son?!?! Freaking epic! DD's secret ID is OUT to everyone?! Awesome. DD takes over the underworld. And that second to last arc where they are telling stories of DD and they meet that "little devil character" was amazing. Plus he put him in jail. The credit for Brubaker's first arc in jail has to go to Bendis.



Finally a voice of reason. Totally agree.

"...too scared to say Miller's isn't good because it's 'old'? Dude.

[Chris Heide]

God, just...ugh...

Bendis DD starts with a good idea: mobsters are tired of Kingpin being too busy playing supervillain to effectively be a mob boss, and decide to take him out. Charismatic mobster SIlke moves in to take his place. Cool.

Then Kingpin doesn't die. Again.

Silke is killed as an afterthought.

My all-time favorite minor Spider-Man villain is killed by his totally out-of-character mother.

Bullseye, Typhoid Mary, Elektra, and The Owl all show up in a "definitive run" parade.

Bendis shows he clearly has no idea what a nervous breakdown is.

Lots and lots of decompression and wannabe-Tarantino dialogue.

Eventually I think he got to the "Kingpin before Kingpin" taking superpower drugs or some idiotic crap like that, but by then I just didn't care any more.

So yeah, I could do without Bendis and his terrible DD run (or his terrible Avengers run, House of M, Disassembled, Daisy Sue the Savior of SHIELD, Spider Woman as Most Important Character In Marvel Because I Had A Crush On Her In The 70's, Foolkiller on the Raft/Centurious in The Hood's Gang and any other instance of "lemme throw random characters from old books in here without fact checking", etc...)