So i'm getting back into the Claremont/Davis/Bachalo issues of Uncanny

[Agent_Torpor]

and damned if I don't like what i'm reading. Esp. after the soggy dreck Bru brought right afterwards, and the mindnumbing direction the Bruction duo seem to want to take the book.

I know Claremont's got a bad rap around these parts, but i'm appreciating these issues more and more with time. Maybe it's the senility. Maybe not.

[Mystique25]

I always enjoyed these issues, I was not the biggest fan of all the Savage Land issues, but otherwise I like it.

[jarrod]

He massacred Rachel and the X.S.E. went nowhere fast... but other than that (and X-Babies, ugh!) it was solid. I'd have sure as hell taken Claremont+Bachalo's proposed space opera over the trash we got after they left.

[david r]

This run is vastly underrated. I especially liked The End of History and End of Greys. There was a lot of potential here.

[jarrod]

Yeah, End of Greys is the best arc Uncanny's seen in a solid decade. Good stuff.

[rwsmith]

My first thought when I read the title of this thread, "Why would anyone want to torture themselves like that?"

And I'm not even trying to be a smart aleck. Seriously, that was my first thought.

[DeniseXfrost]

and this deserves its own thread, why?

[timbox]

and this deserves its own thread, why?

Your avatar deserves its own thread.

[Cayman]

The woman who threw lizards at people was cool.

[ImpulseUCF]

I have to admit that despite the obligatory line or snippet of God-awful Claremontian cheesy dialogue each issue and a couple stinker arcs, Claremont's last run on Uncanny was pretty damn solid. I enjoyed it a lot, and he and Bachalo were just hitting their stride when he got axed. All of Claremont's faults have been magnifed many times over in his writing since then, too. What a damn loss.

[knightrunner]

I liked the run, even the Mojo xbabie stuff. Wish it couldve lasted.

[Seikun21]

The woman who threw lizards at people was cool.

The woman who throws cats at people on The Simpsons is even cooler

[XaviersMisprint]

there were some good stories there, a lot was very light-hearted, which i liked. but then sometimes it would get scary like end of greys, which was well-written. x-babies were lame, savage land was alright but there were things i seriously hated about it. the idea was good, at least. bety's return was strange, and the jamie braddock stuff sucked. but i liekd the hellfire club stuff with sunspot and sage, and the viper murderworld story, plus end of greys, and the post-HoM stuff with the O.N.E. and how the team started developing relationships as friends with one another. and paige was trying to hack or something? idk i liked how billy tan drew her which has nothing to do with claremont haha. the house of m arc was awesome.

i liked that he used x-23, but didn't like how she was portrayed much. but it broguht her into the x-world at least. the end of greys and the story afetr it were really good, though. a few really good issues/arcs, a few bad ones. his uncanny wasn't nearly as bad as his new excalibur, new exiles, or die by the sword. its when he starts to overuse fetish characters like Roma is where he goes wrong.

[DeniseXfrost]

Your avatar deserves its own thread.
La fea made it for me :biggrin:

[timbox]

La fea made it for me :biggrin:

La Fea deserves her own thread.

[DeniseXfrost]

La Fea deserves her own thread.
True that.

[timbox]

True that.

If you start it I will make an appearance.

[Blade X]

I'd have sure as hell taken Claremont+Bachalo's proposed space opera over the trash we got after they left.

What was their proposed space opera story going to be about?

[Daithi]

What was their proposed space opera story going to be about?

The Uncanny team going into space after Grey's End. So like Bru's space arc minus Vulcan and Korvus, Blue Phoenix Echo shards and Corsair dying (probably) but probably more Lilandra, M'Krann, Phoenix/Jean mentions and standard Claremont stuff.

[Roo]

It started off pretty weak but was definitely his best X-work in a fair while and Grey's End was a terrific arc... the arc following it wasn't bad either but I felt the ending was a bit of a cop-out (would rather Rachael had stayed gone through with killing the shiar commandos)

[Daithi]

the arc following it wasn't bad either but I felt the ending was a bit of a cop-out (would rather Rachael had stayed gone through with killing the shiar commandos)

When Brubaker brings them into space Rachel starts killing people. I preferred Claremont's take to be honest.

[darknessatnoon]

No. Agent Torpor. No.

Do not make me say BOO.

Uncanny now may be outrageous, but do not go telling me that you miss the White Warrior Princess and Psylocke repeatedly practicing her splits in front of the Sentinel Squad One.

No. NOT a good run.

[Agent_Torpor]

and this deserves its own thread, why?

I only hope to emulate the greatness that is the current "Do you wish Gambit/Rogue were still together/or separated" thread. :rolleyes:

[david r]

There was a lot of potential in this run. Claremont hinted a little what he and Chris Bachalo planned to do, post-#475, and I kind of wished they'd been allowed to do a few more arcs together.

[MartinRedmond]

No. Agent Torpor. No.

Do not make me say BOO.

Uncanny now may be outrageous, but do not go telling me that you miss the White Warrior Princess and Psylocke repeatedly practicing her splits in front of the Sentinel Squad One.

No. NOT a good run.

Yeah, but U don't like women, so that doesn't COUNT.

So yes, yes way.

[cgar]

yah this run was better then freakin Chuck Austens and Milligans crap. Its pretty much the same now with Brubaker good but not great

[pryde15]

La fea made it for me :biggrin:

La Fea never makes me anything. :frown:

[jester1436]

Yeah, but U don't like women, so that doesn't COUNT.

So yes, yes way.

What is this mess?

Seriously, your way with words verges on molestation and the homophobia and sexism in this specific inane rambling is quite simply, well, stupid.

[jester1436]

La Fea never makes me anything. :frown:

La Fea makes me cry, because I am reminded of Wind Dancer and then think of New Warriors. :frown:

[timbox]

Yeah, but U don't like women, so that doesn't COUNT.

So yes, yes way.

What the hell?

[BigBoss]

Yeah, but U don't like women, so that doesn't COUNT.

So yes, yes way.

hahahahhaa WTF.

[Excelsior]

Thank god for this thread! Ill take it as proof of rational thought.

[MartinRedmond]

Please, he complained about Psylocke doing splits not being interesting. Of course he wouldn't.

[jester1436]

Please, he complained about Psylocke doing splits not being interesting. Of course he wouldn't.

Homophobia is lame.

And so is getting excited and busting a nut over a four color butt crack.

[MartinRedmond]

Homophobia is lame.

And so is getting excited and busting a nut over a four color butt crack.

Your buddy started it with his mysoginy. I don't know why you would be fantasising that I would "bust a nut". But I'll let you know that I am not an object.

[darknessatnoon]

Your buddy started it with his mysoginy. I don't know why you would be fantasising that I would "bust a nut". But I'll let you know that I am not an object.

Misogyny. It seems that you neither understand the concept nor know how to spell the word.

Claremont's Psylocke is a mentally ill young woman who thinks she can defeat Sentinels with the power of her bared buttocks.

And my sexual orientation has nothing to do with whether or not I find the idea of her performing her morning aerobic exercises in front of the military a good comic book sub-plot.

Bad troll, Martin! Shame!

[pryde15]

La Fea makes me cry, because I am reminded of Wind Dancer and then think of New Warriors. :frown:

I made her a sign calling Wind Dancer a hussy... :smile:

[cgar]

its not her fault she's hot and that there's pervy ass men in those sentinels now. dont be hypocritical seeing as Sage use to dress alot worse..actually right now its pretty bad but at least she had an excuse when she was in the Hellfire Club

[darknessatnoon]

its not her fault she's hot and that there's pervy ass men in those sentinels now. dont be hypocritical seeing as Sage use to dress alot worse..actually right now its pretty bad but at least she had an excuse when she was in the Hellfire Club

Sage is also undergoing a temporary nervous breakdown!

[timbox]

I want to know about dn@n's sexual orientation.

[Excelsior]

Homophobia is lame.

And so is getting excited and busting a nut over a four color butt crack.


As opposed to four color flavored crotch.

[Excelsior]

There was a lot of potential in this run. Claremont hinted a little what he and Chris Bachalo planned to do, post-#475, and I kind of wished they'd been allowed to do a few more arcs together.


What were his future plot considerations?

[jester1436]

As opposed to four color flavored crotch.

Psylocke is not Lil' Kim.

[Excelsior]

Psylocke is not Lil' Kim.

Sigh. You had to go and ruin it for me. you cad!

[Affinity]

Viper's arc in Murderworld was kind of fun!

Coipel art saved that beyond anything. I look past the writing with his diva-fierce Storm that isn't tranny-fabulous.

[jarrod]

Being stooges for Betsy's exhibitionism was probably the best use we got out of Sentinel Squad O*N*E. Ever.


What was their proposed space opera story going to be about?
Rachel's revenge, crazy Lilandra, Bishop & Deathbird's reunion, extinction of the Brood, Storm getting crippled, Sam vs Gladiator rematch, Husk joining and (I suspect) there was a Kurt+Betsy romance bubbling. The Wand'ring Star arc was something of a quick rewrite afaik after it was decided Claremont was off the book and Bru was heading into space, I think the space opera was originally supposed to tail EOG.

[darknessatnoon]

Being stooges for Betsy's exhibitionism was probably the best use we got out of Sentinel Squad O*N*E. Ever.



Even better than when the ONE kept watching R'chel in the shower?

[Slung]

Even better than when the ONE kept watching R'chel in the shower?

They were hoping Rachel would shower with Kitty at some point.

[DeadXMan]

It was a good run. I think his health issues stop it from going even further.

[Babylon23]

Overall, I really enjoyed this run. I thought it started well, with the Fury story. The Arcade arc wasn't bad. Chasing Hellfire was a really interesting setup that Claremont was unfortunately unable to follow through with. End of Greys was excellent, definitely the highpoint of the run and one of the best x-stories in years.

I actually enjoyed the Savage Land arc. It was fun, and full of all the things that make the Savage Land an interesting part of the Marvel U. Plus I thought it was fascinating that Rachel's TK powers actually altered her physical structure while she was possessed. There was a LOT of possibility in what Claremont was setting up for Rachel.

Plus, he brought Betsy back to life, for which I am forever grateful. I just wish he'd been allowed to bring her back in her British body as he'd originally planned.

The end of the run was marred by Claremont's illness. I'd like to have seen where he was going with the Jamie Braddock storyline, but the story had to be finished without him.

[jarrod]

Even better than when the ONE kept watching R'chel in the shower?
Crazy Train's a perv.

[MartinRedmond]

I would've enjoyed R'Chel in the Savage Land arc if not that "the X-Men become evil" being the same plot Chris has used EVERYTIME they've been to the Savage Land. :(

[LawGiver]

These issues should have been printed with out dialogue, the art was outstanding.

[jarrod]

The dialog got better towards the end too. I hate to keep pointing to it, but EOG reads pretty flawlessly and without the usual dialog ticks (which Claremont has since immersed himself back in) even if Ray does sound a bit too immature around her grandparents.

[darknessatnoon]

The dialog got better towards the end too. I hate to keep pointing to it, but EOG reads pretty flawlessly and without the usual dialog ticks (which Claremont has since immersed himself back in) even if Ray does sound a bit too immature around her grandparents.

That's the arc where Psylocke fights in her bathrobe, right?

[MartinRedmond]

I will not yield to you mindwitch fiend! Ahh... ahhh... My clothes and hair have become so wild, could this be my true inner self! Now I must kill the X-Men. I belong to BOGANSHADOWKINGTHEFURYRCHELVIPER body and soul!!

[MartinRedmond]

That's the arc where Psylocke fights in her bathrobe, right?

Yes another highlight of Psylocke's involvement.

[ExodusCloak]

That's the arc where Psylocke fights in her bathrobe, right?

Yep, I think what jarrods trying to say is that, that was CC's strongest work out of all the fail he's been putting out. But it still reaked of his bad habits. That one issue takes place in under 24 seconds IRRC so it wouldn't have made sense to write a reams for each character. In any case I feel that arc is slightly overrated and average at best.

[jarrod]

That's the arc where Psylocke fights in her bathrobe, right?
Only for one issue, Betsy reverts to nudity pretty quick.

[Agent_Torpor]

Overall, I really enjoyed this run. I thought it started well, with the Fury story. The Arcade arc wasn't bad. Chasing Hellfire was a really interesting setup that Claremont was unfortunately unable to follow through with. End of Greys was excellent, definitely the highpoint of the run and one of the best x-stories in years.

I actually enjoyed the Savage Land arc. It was fun, and full of all the things that make the Savage Land an interesting part of the Marvel U. Plus I thought it was fascinating that Rachel's TK powers actually altered her physical structure while she was possessed. There was a LOT of possibility in what Claremont was setting up for Rachel.

Plus, he brought Betsy back to life, for which I am forever grateful. I just wish he'd been allowed to bring her back in her British body as he'd originally planned.

The end of the run was marred by Claremont's illness. I'd like to have seen where he was going with the Jamie Braddock storyline, but the story had to be finished without him.

That's unfortunate about Claremont's illness. At least that was the reason for not continuing, as opposed to an asinine editorial decision.

[jarrod]

That's unfortunate about Claremont's illness. At least that was the reason for not continuing, as opposed to an asinine editorial decision.
No, he was let go before he got ill. His space epic was killed (likely for Bru's trainwreck), his post EOG plans were hastily rewritten and Bachalo was taken away to do planning and design work for Carey's run.

His medical issues were on top of that, and he didn't even get to close out his own run.

[Agent_Torpor]

No, he was let go before he got ill. His space epic was killed (likely for Bru's trainwreck), his post EOG plans were hastily rewritten and Bachalo was taken away to do planning and design work for Carey's run.

His medical issues were on top of that, and he didn't even get to close out his own run.
:frown: Sadness for this.

Love how Marvel bends over backwards to give the book to the flavor of the month (regardless of fit). Bru's a damn good noir writer. What gave anyone any clue he'd do well with Uncanny? And now, Fraction? I'm just as unsold.

[DDM]

Rachel's revenge, crazy Lilandra, Bishop & Deathbird's reunion, extinction of the Brood, Storm getting crippled, Sam vs Gladiator rematch, Husk joining and (I suspect) there was a Kurt+Betsy romance bubbling. The Wand'ring Star arc was something of a quick rewrite afaik after it was decided Claremont was off the book and Bru was heading into space, I think the space opera was originally supposed to tail EOG.

Chris Claremont's space epic would have been a symphony, but instead we got Eb Brubaker's attempt with his sad little garage band with a bad sound system....:rolleyes:

[david r]

That's unfortunate about Claremont's illness. At least that was the reason for not continuing, as opposed to an asinine editorial decision.

Editorial fired Chris Claremont from Uncanny X-Men in early 2006. Claremont stated at Comix-Fan he'd plotted the book all the way out to #500. A new member was to join with #475 (and it would have Psylocke's head explode, as a result. Fans have speculated who it was ever since? Vargas? Spiral? Sabretooth? CC has never said.)

He talks about his plans with Chris Bachalo in the book Comics Creators on X-Men. He said he had just visited Bachalo at his home and they'd plotted a lot of cool ideas, when Marvel announced they were both off the title. Weeks later, Claremont suffers heart stress at a book signing in Italy, I believe. I'm sure he was not terribly happy with being removed from UXM.

[Optic Rage!]

Chris Claremont's space epic would have been a symphony, but instead we got Eb Brubaker's attempt with his sad little garage band with a bad sound system....:rolleyes:

You are so full of shit.

[jarrod]

You are so full of shit.
Rise and Fall of the Shi'ar Empire was full of shit. Seriously, it was bad.

[Slung]

Rise and Fall of the Shi'ar Empire was full of shit. Seriously, it was bad.

I thought the first issue was pretty good. After that, it was really bad.

[jarrod]

I thought the first issue was pretty good. After that, it was really bad.
True. Actually, I thought all Brubaker's arcs started well... that's about the nicest thing I can say about his run.

[DeadXMan]

the idea he had for the dark wolvine saga sounds better then what Millar put out in enmey of the state ( and would of made Betsy white agian)

hell his FF runn is better then millar's

[Optic Rage!]

Rise and Fall of the Shi'ar Empire was full of shit. Seriously, it was bad.

Oh yeah it was.

DDM is still full of shit tough.

[DeadXMan]

then the exteminests arc was bad aswell

which left Ucanny 500 a huge plot hole.

his only desent run was the MC crossover.

which is sad I love his cap and DD

[Agent_Torpor]

Editorial fired Chris Claremont from Uncanny X-Men in early 2006. Claremont stated at Comix-Fan he'd plotted the book all the way out to #500. A new member was to join with #475 (and it would have Psylocke's head explode, as a result. Fans have speculated who it was ever since? Vargas? Spiral? Sabretooth? CC has never said.)

He talks about his plans with Chris Bachalo in the book Comics Creators on X-Men. He said he had just visited Bachalo at his home and they'd plotted a lot of cool ideas, when Marvel announced they were both off the title. Weeks later, Claremont suffers heart stress at a book signing in Italy, I believe. I'm sure he was not terribly happy with being removed from UXM.

Low-class move by Marvel editorial. But then again, they seem like a clueless bunch of fat fratboys (led by the lead moron Joe Q).

[david r]

A completely unbiased photo of the people running the X-books right now:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/images/litg/2008/0811/X-Boys-2008.jpg

[Disco Jess Minge]

Low-class move by Marvel editorial. But then again, they seem like a clueless bunch of fat fratboys (led by the lead moron Joe Q).

So why is Claremont still getting more work from Marvel?

[jarrod]

So why is Claremont still getting more work from Marvel?
He, um, isn't from the X-Office...

[Disco Jess Minge]

He, um, isn't from the X-Office...

So? Uncanny is a big deal title and Claremont has shown that he wasn't able to step up to the plate aside from the five issues or so with Bachalo. Seriously, a lot of that second run was drek, repeated plot devices like mind control, and pet characters were running rampant. You have to know when to cash in your chips and move on. He's fine right where he is, special minis and non-canon ongoings.

Even though Rise and Fall of the Shiar was a huge meh, it did have some good characterization. For the first time ever, I didn't hate Rachel Summers. Also, a huge plus for me when I buy a comic is that it has to be readable. You gotta understand what's going on and get engaged in the story. I think that if RAFOTSE had a proper ending, it would have been better recieved.

I mean having Vulcan killing his own dad at the end was just brutal and unexpected. Claremont would have just had Betsy running around naked with a gun, chanting, "I'm action junkie, deal with it!"

And DDM needs to pull his head out of his own ass, the X-Men are much bigger than Claremont now, they always have been even before the Dark Phoenix Saga ended when Shooter stepped in and essentially demanded a rewrite on a major event in X-Men canon.

[jarrod]

So?
So; this specific editorial group isn't giving Claremont any favors. He's finding work outside the X-Office by large, though he is still doing GeneXt for a couple more issues admittedly.


Uncanny is a big deal title and Claremont has shown that he wasn't able to step up to the plate aside from the five issues or so with Bachalo. Seriously, a lot of that second run was drek, repeated plot devices like mind control, and pet characters were running rampant. You have to know when to cash in your chips and move on. He's fine right where he is, special minis and non-canon ongoings.
It was uneven and thoroughly disappointing, but that seems to be a benchmark for the title these days. Honestly, it's not like Casey, Austin or Brubaker have been much, if any, better.

That said, in the end I don't think it mattered much... Claremont's health issues would've seen him take leave of the book anyway, so it was probably lucky coincidence they'd decided to take a new direction and move Bachalo over to Carey. At least he got the opportunity to tie up some loose ends beforehand, and if given the choice, I probably wouldn't have wanted it to turn out differently (as we got an awesome Carey/Bachalo pairing out of it).


Even though Rise and Fall of the Shiar was a huge meh, it did have some good characterization. For the first time ever, I didn't hate Rachel Summers. Also, a huge plus for me when I buy a comic is that it has to be readable. You gotta understand what's going on and get engaged in the story. I think that if RAFOTSE had a proper ending, it would have been better recieved.
Oh come on... Bru's handling of Rachel was a low point for the character and after "Rachel Grey" that's saying something. From the Shatterstar/Cloud amalgam boyfriend to sudden indiscriminate murder to clusterfucking the Phoenix even more, I can't fathom how anyone could honestly prefer this interpretation of Rachel Summers to all others? I mean did you read the same scenes I did? Do I actually have to type out the embarrassingly ridiculous date rape dialog to prove a point?

Rise was pretty easily the worst thing Ed Brubaker has ever written. And even having only read his X-work, I feel pretty secure in submitting that. It wasn't just the non-ending, it was the glacial crawl to get there, with basically zero good character moments, a confused grasping of motivations and histories, terrible dialog, ugly art and what may be the worst Mary Sue villain the X-Books have ever put forth. It was absolute trash as soon as they left earth, and Brubaker's run hasn't really recovered since.


I mean having Vulcan killing his own dad at the end was just brutal and unexpected. Claremont would have just had Betsy running around naked with a gun, chanting, "I'm action junkie, deal with it!"
No, Claremont would've made Lilandra the complex villain that Grant Morrison set up. Or at least tried, and thrown in a few "The Devil!"s.

And we unquestionably would've gotten a better story out of it. Because frankly, they don't get much worse than Rise.

[Disco Jess Minge]

You have got to read Bru's Captain America and his Catwoman. They're both totally amazing.

[Agent_Torpor]

You have got to read Bru's Captain America and his Catwoman. They're both totally amazing.

Cap, yes. His CW reboot? Good in places. Uneven. Just like his work in DD. But frankly, his work in Uncanny was subpar. And that's being delicate, I can throw a few more well-deserved adjectives that the mods here may not appreciate.

And I can't argue with a single thing that Jarrod wrote in his thesis above.

[Agent_Torpor]

So why is Claremont still getting more work from Marvel?

He is? A barely-supported reboot of the Exiles title?

They're throwing the man a bone.

[jarrod]

New Exiles is outside the X-Office. So is Big Hero Six iirc... though Genext is done within the X-Office, it's also a project that was greenlit like two years ago, and truncated to a miniseries.


I'd read Brubaker's other work, but I'm allergic to comics without mutants.

[jarrod]

Fraction is the hott, gaybashing one.

[Agent_Torpor]

A completely unbiased photo of the people running the X-books right now:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/images/litg/2008/0811/X-Boys-2008.jpg

LOL. What a bunch of meaty mcfucksticks. Here's your "house of ideas".

Notice how Bru's conspicuously absent from the frat?

[Blade X]

So why is Claremont still getting more work from Marvel?

Because they MOST LIKELY don't want him pulling a Stan Lee or Dave Cockrum on them and publicly embarrass the company for not giving him work after he had made so much money for the company by help turning the X-Men into a multimillion dollar franchise that has expanded to both TV and movies. And then there are the numerous characters that he either created,co-created,or developed over the years.

[david r]

I do wish Chris Claremont would divulge what he planned for Uncanny X-Men #500. Not disparaging what we got, but I still have to wonder what he planned for a massive milestone like #500.

[Excelsior]

I do wish Chris Claremont would divulge what he planned for Uncanny X-Men #500. Not disparaging what we got, but I still have to wonder what he planned for a massive milestone like #500.

Me too. Please if anyone is in the know throw us a bone.



Gaybashing, Puhhhleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Agent_Torpor]

I do wish Chris Claremont would divulge what he planned for Uncanny X-Men #500. Not disparaging what we got, but I still have to wonder what he planned for a massive milestone like #500.

Whatever it was, i'm sure it was 100% better than what we did get.

[Babylon23]

You have got to read Bru's Captain America and his Catwoman. They're both totally amazing.

I'd add Scene of the Crime, his Batman work, Sleeper, Iron Fist and the amazing Gotham Central as well. All excellent books.

Overall, I'm a huge supporter of Brubaker, and had never been dissapointed in anything he'd written until X-Men: Deadly Genesis and Rise & Fall.

[DeadXMan]

I'd add Scene of the Crime, his Batman work, Sleeper, Iron Fist and the amazing Gotham Central as well. All excellent books.

Overall, I'm a huge supporter of Brubaker, and had never been dissapointed in anything he'd written until X-Men: Deadly Genesis and Rise & Fall.

same here

Bru midas touch failed in UXM

and this is they second time CC had plains to the aniveriery issue only to pushed out the door in favor for the rising names.

I died a little when CC said the X-world no longer suited him in the retospective.

[david r]

I died a little when CC said the X-world no longer suited him in the retospective.

Whoa, there was a retrospective where? In #500?

[DeadXMan]

in the Con before San Diago

It was covered here

his ending for CoIE was interesting

it would of placed Golden age Sup (using make up to look older in his world) end up in the new DCU.