Wildstorm's World End

[Charles RB]

I think there might be two reasons why World's End isn't getting the attention that the premise deserves:

a) As you say, it took three miniseries to reach the payoff and if you don't know the payoff it just seems like a standard crossover.

b) Wildstorm recently had a reboot and it blew it, and this may have killed most reader's interest in the imprint or Wildstorm Universe. Why bother with it when it'll only fuck up again?

I know I'm not that interested in World's End even when objectively this'd be right up my alley, and b) is certainly one reason why.

[Dennis]

There's not many satisfying stories you can tell in a post-apocalyptic world. There's nothing worth fighting for. Except for your life. They should just make it a zombie comic.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Well, the debate is raging (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/08/12/do-people-still-seriously-care-about-the-wildstorm-universe/) over on CSBG, and Steven's being quoted as a supporter of the idea.

I'd be more interested in the WSU if DC could even pretend to be interested in it.
Several times in it's history it's been the place to go for the most innovative super hero stories, but it's been a long while since the last one.

[Dennis]

I don't think big name writers would be interested in this storyline. Warren Ellis and Mark Millar are fighting the culture war - there's no culture war in a ruined world. There's no reason to fight the Republicans - they might be the ones who could supply toilet paper. There's no reason to fight the Catholics - they might be serving food.

[Charles RB]

I'd be more interested in the WSU if DC could even pretend to be interested in it.
Several times in it's history it's been the place to go for the most innovative super hero stories, but it's been a long while since the last one.

Yeah, that cuts the legs out of them. Did World's End even get any marketing by DC? All I remember is stuff on Newsarama that I mostly ignored.

I like the link you provided, because I finally see someone besides me thinks WildCATS 3.0 was overrated! :smile:

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

I like the link you provided, because I finally see someone besides me thinks WildCATS 3.0 was overrated! :smile:
I liked Wildcats 3.0, but I'm shocked that it's what everyone remembers - the Casey and Phillips run just before the 'Eye Of The Storm' relaunch was incredible.

[Flâneur]

There's not many satisfying stories you can tell in a post-apocalyptic world. There's nothing worth fighting for. Except for your life. They should just make it a zombie comic.

Disagreed - there are loads of stories you can tell in a dystopic setting. There are sooooo many movies and books with this premise and they pull it off fine. It also is something that the 'hot' writers like Ellis and Morrison would be interested in, imo, as dystopias in speculative fiction have often been used for very strong political and social commentary (Handmaid's Tale, for example).

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Disagreed - there are loads of stories you can tell in a dystopic setting. There are sooooo many movies and books with this premise and they pull it off fine.

Except the vast majority of these are one off tales, that either end with a hope of a better tomorrow, or the end of man kind.
After you've done either of those two, there's not that much point to the setting.

[Dennis]

Disagreed - there are loads of stories you can tell in a dystopic setting. There are sooooo many movies and books with this premise and they pull it off fine. It also is something that the 'hot' writers like Ellis and Morrison would be interested in, imo, as dystopias in speculative fiction have often been used for very strong political and social commentary (Handmaid's Tale, for example).

There are some good stand-alone stories, but any long running comic book or tv series? Two hours of misery is fine, but I can't imagine a whole superhero universe based on that. And such a story really needs an ending to hammer home whatever point the author is making - which is usually government and religion sucks, and you have to be an independent rebellious soul willing to risk his life to fight it.

I've read a few issues of the new Jonah Hex, and it's kinda similar to dystopian stories. The beginning establishes how much the world sucks, Jonah finds himself in a conflict, resolves it by shooting the bad guys, the world still sucks, the end. And the world feels like it sucks even more than in the beginning of the story. It's a never ending battle. There's just too many of the bad guys - zombies, aliens, religious fanatics. Even if you beat them or escape from them, the next town will have the same bad guys.

But isn't there a difference between dystopia and a completely ruined world? Isn't post-apocalypse closer to I am Legend than 1984? Wouldn't a government in World's End be more interested in rebuilding than oppressing.

[Charles RB]

Grant points out you could get a lot of traction from the Authority actually building their Finer World out of the post-apocalypse. Let's see them do what they talked about and how they'll do it.

[Flâneur]

There are some good stand-alone stories, but any long running comic book or tv series? Two hours of misery is fine, but I can't imagine a whole superhero universe based on that. And such a story really needs an ending to hammer home whatever point the author is making - which is usually government and religion sucks, and you have to be an independent rebellious soul willing to risk his life to fight it.

I've read a few issues of the new Jonah Hex, and it's kinda similar to dystopian stories. The beginning establishes how much the world sucks, Jonah finds himself in a conflict, resolves it by shooting the bad guys, the world still sucks, the end. And the world feels like it sucks even more than in the beginning of the story. It's a never ending battle. There's just too many of the bad guys - zombies, aliens, religious fanatics. Even if you beat them or escape from them, the next town will have the same bad guys.

But isn't there a difference between dystopia and a completely ruined world? Isn't post-apocalypse closer to I am Legend than 1984? Wouldn't a government in World's End be more interested in rebuilding than oppressing.
Not all dystopias are as discrete as 1984.

And really, this isn't an on-going series, it's a maxi (at least in the Authority's case). Overall it won't even get to 300 pages so it's not going to be a dragged out continuance, they're definitely moving towards something specific plus the inclusion of a few subplots of which there is a huge range they could pick from in this genre.

[Steven Grant]

Grant points out you could get a lot of traction from the Authority actually building their Finer World out of the post-apocalypse. Let's see them do what they talked about and how they'll do it.

Yeah, exactly. They don't have to permanently leave the world a hopeless disaster. They could work to repair it, ala the original Buck Rogers comic strip, or the Atomic Knights. They could create something new from the ashes.

The comic book tradition is just to reboot to pre-apocalypse somehow and make it so it had never been... But there's no rule that says they must revert to our current world. They could keep going forward.

- Grant

[badMike]

There are some good stand-alone stories, but any long running comic book or tv series? Two hours of misery is fine, but I can't imagine a whole superhero universe based on that.Judge Dredd has been running for 30 years. It takes place in a post-apocalyptic setting -- most of the planet has been wiped out by nuclear combat, except for the few "mega-cities" -- and it's filled with total misery and death. (At least it was the 7 or 8 years I read it regularly.) Of course, that misery is off-set with dark humor, which makes the tragedy palatable.

Dredd himself is superhero-like in the Batman sense, but his world is filled with supervillains, e.g. Judge Death, and people with superhuman powers, e.g. the psychic Judge Anderson. So, it can be done.

[Charles RB]

It also keeps getting wiped out further, which is always fun.

And indeed, multiple stories following The Apocalypse War - which destroyed 90% of Mega-City One and all of East-Meg One - focusing on rebuilding the city and complications arising from that.

[bartl]

There are some good stand-alone stories, but any long running comic book or tv series? Two hours of misery is fine, but I can't imagine a whole superhero universe based on that. And such a story really needs an ending to hammer home whatever point the author is making - which is usually government and religion sucks, and you have to be an independent rebellious soul willing to risk his life to fight it.
Kamandi. Atomic Knights. Orson Scott Card's Fringe stories. Roddenberry's Earth 2 pilots. The Postman (the book) got off to a good start, but then went off in another direction.

In other words, the apocalypse has taken place, it is over, but now the survivors have a chance to rebuild.

[Chris Striker]

a) As you say, it took three miniseries to reach the payoff and if you don't know the payoff it just seems like a standard crossover.

WS told you the payoff right from the begining, they just didnt tell you how it was going to happen.



b) Wildstorm recently had a reboot and it blew it, and this may have killed most reader's interest in the imprint or Wildstorm Universe. Why bother with it when it'll only fuck up again?

The WorldStorm was killed by Grant Morrison, not the WS Staff, when he said F*#^ It" they we're pretty much between a rock and a hard place because of all the hype surrounding the GM helmed Flagship Titles and it did kill a lot of readers interest in the imprint and the characters, but I think if the fans gave World's End a chance they'd be suprised with the creative teams that are onthe books now. I think that WS has worked best by finding new talent then showcasing exsisting "big names"

[badMike]

It also keeps getting wiped out further, which is always fun.That sounds good. I haven't read Dredd in years, but it was one of my favorites way back when.

Another 2000AD continuing series I really liked a long time ago was Rogue Trooper, which was also of the post-apocalyptic bent. They told a lot of fun stories with that from what I recall.

[Charles RB]

WS told you the payoff right from the begining, they just didnt tell you how it was going to happen.

That's even worse - why bother buying that many lead-ins just to eventually get the pay-off?



The WorldStorm was killed by Grant Morrison, not the WS Staff, when he said F*#^ It" they we're pretty much between a rock and a hard place because of all the hype surrounding the GM helmed Flagship Titles

Hype they did, when he hadn't sent in all the issues and they knew he was busy & the artists attached were not fast ones, and after they hired him.


That sounds good. I haven't read Dredd in years, but it was one of my favorites way back when.

The original creators did a story on the origins of the Judge system, MC-1 et al (called... Origin), which delves into the causes and aftermath of the Atomic Wars. That was fun. Total War, featuring Dredd fighting nuclear terrorism, is even more fun (and immediately switched gears in the follow-up by making the Judges just as scary as the terrorists as they took out the rest of the group).


They told a lot of fun stories with that from what I recall.

They still do - and they've got a pay-to-download service on these days.

[Chris Striker]

That's even worse - why bother buying that many lead-ins just to eventually get the pay-off?

You can't have it both ways, you can complain about not knowing the pay off and then turn around and complain about knowing the payoff. In Stormwatch: PHD Armageddon there was huge payoff to those reading the SW: PHD main series, With the 1st issues of the World's End just coming out we dont know how they'll payoff down the road...but WS gives a few buffer pages in the current World's End to bring people up to speed for those who didnt read it.


Hype they did, when he hadn't sent in all the issues and they knew he was busy & the artists attached were not fast ones, and after they hired him.

I'll grant you Jim Lee and the Wildcats was destined to be late with Lee working on AS Batman and the DC's MMORPG and Wildcats, but Gene Ha was only scheduled for the 1st four issue arc, a different artist was suppose to take over for the 2nd 4 issues arc and then a 3rd artist for the last four issues arc to complete his 12 issue run.

[Charles RB]

You can't have it both ways

Sure I can - both ways are based on making people wade through three consecutive lead-in miniseries to eventually reach a payoff. If you don't know about the payoff, there's no reason to bother; if you do, why'd you want to faff around waiting?

Sales weren't exactly good on this minis.


In Stormwatch: PHD Armageddon there was huge payoff to those reading the SW: PHD main series[/quot]e

The point of these things is to attract new readers. New readers are, by definition, not reading PHD already.

[quote]Gene Ha was only scheduled for the 1st four issue arc, a different artist was suppose to take over for the 2nd 4 issues arc and then a 3rd artist for the last four issues arc to complete his 12 issue run.

That's good planning.

Not waiting until you had more than one issue done of the first arc? That's not good planning.

[Chris Striker]

Sure I can - both ways are based on making people wade through three consecutive lead-in miniseries to eventually reach a payoff. If you don't know about the payoff, there's no reason to bother; if you do, why'd you want to faff around waiting?

Sales weren't exactly good on this minis.


then wy read comics, you read the stories to get to the payoff...Why read Final Crisis or Secret Invasion if you dont know the payoff or bother reading if you know the heroes are going to win.


The point of these things is to attract new readers. New readers are, by definition, not reading PHD already.

The think was, if you were a new reader the payoff wouldn't have mattered because it wasn't the main part of the story of the one-shot and would probably slipped under their radar unless then went back and picked up the back issues.



Not waiting until you had more than one issue done of the first arc? That's not good planning.

Can't fault you there, but then WS still would be between a rock and a hard place because there would still be delays on the flagship titles due to GM, cause were just a few months shy of 2 years since Wildcats #1 came out.

On a side note Gene Ha will not be returning to finish his last twos on the GM plotted and Keith Giffen scripted Authority, probably cause he blamed by GM for the lateness of the Authority

[dancj]

I liked Wildcats 3.0, but I'm shocked that it's what everyone remembers - the Casey and Phillips run just before the 'Eye Of The Storm' relaunch was incredible.
Yeah - I thought his run peaked with Serial Boxes - though it's all good.

[Brenz]

Serial Boxes? It was really good, but not the limit of Casey's run. 3.0 is still the freshest superhero comic of the 21st century. More than Authority, even more than Planetary, the superhero as corporation and the corporation as superhero engaged my reader's enthusiasm.

All great books, though.

Maybe it's impossible to say which is the better Wildcats take. They're complementary books, building towards/from the same point, where they find a new purpose.

Damn, now I have to go re-read those.

[Kid Monster]

Please spoil it for me: How does the world end? What kind of apocalypse is involved? Are the Wildstorm books more nasty and brutal now, or is it just typical spandex with ruins in the background?

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Serial Boxes? It was really good, but not the limit of Casey's run. 3.0 is still the freshest superhero comic of the 21st century. More than Authority, even more than Planetary, the superhero as corporation and the corporation as superhero engaged my reader's enthusiasm.



I think that's selling it a bit far - it was good, but the execution was faulty.

I think due to one of the books wandering in the desert without a creative team, and one so late most have given up thinking about it, and throw in nearly every other comic mining them to death, how much of a breath of fresh air The Authority and Planetary were at the time.
Throw in the ABC line from around the same time, and Wildcats was just one of many enjoyable books at the time, but it wasn't heads and shoulders above everything else.