And It Seemed To Me You Lived Your Life...

[Grazzt]

...like a candle in the wind. *spoilers for Final Crisis Revelations #1* (http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/6018423.html)

I wish you could see my smile right now. If it were any wider, the two sides would touch and my head would fall off.

[Michael P]

Maybe I'm just cranky, but while I'm not shedding any tears over light, I can't help but be (a) creeped out by yet another gleeful descent into explicit child sexuality on the part of DC and (b) disturbed by the subtext that you can rape superheroes' wives 'till the cows come home and God won't get pissed enough to do anything about you until you kill the Martian Manhunter.

[NickThompson]

Maybe I'm just cranky, but while I'm not shedding any tears over light, I can't help but be (a) creeped out by yet another gleeful descent into explicit child sexuality on the part of DC and (b) disturbed by the subtext that you can rape superheroes' wives 'till the cows come home and God won't get pissed enough to do anything about you until you kill the Martian Manhunter.
I don't see the subtext in b.



I would say though, four pages? That's what they've left for years?

[Jared_Humpherys]

So is this DC's way of acknowledging that the character is broken beyond repair and needs to be discarded?

Not a bad idea, if so. Get rid of the guy, and bring us an all-new Doc Light.

[Grazzt]

So is this DC's way of acknowledging that the character is broken beyond repair and needs to be discarded?

Not a bad idea, if so. Get rid of the guy, and bring us an all-new Doc Light.

Or they could just let Kimiyo Hoshi be the only Doctor Light.

[PatrickG]

Or they could just let Kimiyo Hoshi be the only Doctor Light.

Would you agree to that if it meant she had to be an enemy of the Teen Titans?

[heystacy]

Why is Spectre so powerful and dramatic now with the wrath? Had he visited the League at the time of the rape, his righteous anger may have had some meaning. Hell he could have stopped the League from scandalizing themselves for that matter with those damn magic lobotomies.

[Grazzt]

Would you agree to that if it meant she had to be an enemy of the Teen Titans?

Why would you need a new Titan villain to replace him? Just give them one of the loser Justice League villains. That's how Dr. Light ended up fighting the Titans in the first place.

[Ian Boothby]

Didn't work for me. The rape in Identity Crisis was one of the biggest mistakes in recent years but this isn't how you deal with it. The ghost of Sue is kicking around, get her involved or at least make it some women who do him in. Rape is about power, he needed to have his power removed from him and the tables turned not have the Spectre do a trick he's done before.

[shrike]

Didn't work for me. The rape in Identity Crisis was one of the biggest mistakes in recent years but this isn't how you deal with it. The ghost of Sue is kicking around, get her involved or at least make it some women who do him in. Rape is about power, he needed to have his power removed from him and the tables turned not have the Spectre do a trick he's done before.

Agreed.



.......

[Charles RB]

(b) disturbed by the subtext that you can rape superheroes' wives 'till the cows come home and God won't get pissed enough to do anything about you until you kill the Martian Manhunter.

Yeah, that undermines the thing massively.

That and a commentator at scans_daily asking "so why doesn't the Spectre go after the OTHER big villains then? Why isn't he hitting Luthor? OR LIBRA?".

(On top of which, why didn't they kill this guy earlier?)

[shrike]

Well shit, if you recall Sue wasn't even allowed to talk from the 'Other Side' after she died.

"Thank god for them menfolk cuz I shor is a'skeert! Oh where is my big, brave man?" :rolleyes:

[kitty_tc_69]

Didn't work for me. The rape in Identity Crisis was one of the biggest mistakes in recent years but this isn't how you deal with it. The ghost of Sue is kicking around, get her involved or at least make it some women who do him in. Rape is about power, he needed to have his power removed from him and the tables turned not have the Spectre do a trick he's done before.

100% agreed. Moreover, there should never have been mercy for him to begin with. The whole mindwipe controversy was garbage. The debate should have been kill him or not, with the mindwipe or whatever what the softer side got when the "waste 'im" side lost.

In my crossover MU/DCU RPG, our team recruited Zatanna after Identity Crisis, when she was feeling rejected and sorry for herself. My character's words to her were "You're not the rapist, you have nothing to feel guilty for. If it'd been me, he wouldn't have walked out of there with his balls and if anyone had a problem with it then they could be next."

He'd never have lasted as long as he has were he in the MU. No doubt in my mind. If one of the major heroes didn't get it done, the Punisher would have.

[Infra-Man]

Thanks to the preview, I am now 100% sure I can skip this.

[Bruce Wayne Jr.]

Thanks to the preview, I am now 100% sure I can skip this.

Same here.

They dragged out the real payoff to Identity Crisis over several years... for this?

And some of that dialogue, "--gifted with power over the stuff of light--", is just plain bad. Not what I expected from Rucka at all. He might have phoned this one in.

[heystacy]

Same here.

They dragged out the real payoff to Identity Crisis over several years... for this?

And some of that dialogue, "--gifted with power over the stuff of light--", is just plain bad. Not what I expected from Rucka at all. He might have phoned this one in.

That line was horrible to read. :redface: :frown:

[Cayman]

The preview is ugly and repellent on so many levels.

This will definitely be an easy book to skip.

[Ronald Bryan]

The preview is ugly and repellent on so many levels.

This will definitely be an easy book to skip.
You can't skip it, or I won't hear how terrible it is.

[Ian Boothby]

Well shit, if you recall Sue wasn't even allowed to talk from the 'Other Side' after she died:

Not to get too fanfic bit here's all you need now, have Light and Sue pass each other in the afterlife. Light gloats at her and she makes it really clear that she's not angry any more and just feels sorry for him. This takes away all of his power and would hurt him more than anything.

[MacQuarrie]

Once again my decision to shun and spurn any and all "event" books is validated.

[The Beast Of Yucca Flats]

Not to get too fanfic bit here's all you need now, have Light and Sue pass each other in the afterlife. Light gloats at her and she makes it really clear that she's not angry any more and just feels sorry for him. This takes away all of his power and would hurt him more than anything.

Damn, that is good.

[The Xenos]

Blah. I wanted worse for the bastard. Plus the whole roleplay rape games with children is disturbing. Thena again, Lapham's Spectre mini was pretty messed up too.

Meanwhile, I'm sticking around for Allen and Montoya written by Rucka. Not to mention I'm still warming up to Montoya as Question.

[section 8]

On the commentary at the end, i'd say Rape is worse than Murder, Give me a "crime of passion" murderer over a rapist any day of the week.
Anyone is capable of Murder, but it takes a monster to commit rape!

[kitty_tc_69]

On the commentary at the end, i'd say Rape is worse than Murder, Give me a "crime of passion" murderer over a rapist any day of the week.
Anyone is capable of Murder, but it takes a monster to commit rape!

You might get jumped on for saying it, but if no one else will say it I will:

I agree with you 100%.

[shrike]

Well in comics death is a revolving door, rape not so much as far as 'undoing' it... so I hate it when people use the 'murder is worse than rape in comics' excuse.

That said, I am not opposed to rape in (adult subject) comics... I would just appreciate that it is there to tell a powerful story that focuses on the actual effects it has on the character or is at least DEALT with.

As I've said before, the rape in IC was a Charles Bronson Death Wish rape. It was only there to show the woman as a victim so that the guy would have a story. Sue was a complete cypher in that mini.

Three years after it was released you STILL can't convince me that Brad Meltzer is anything but a talentless hack.


And bald.


And he has moobs.


:cool:

[Lester C.]

Ouch. I remember Marc Andrenko being all excited in an interview that Kate Spencer was going to deal with Light in Manhunter. I think that would have been far more dramatic and satisfying then dealing with him in four pages.

Ofcourse knowing current DC continuity, no one told Mark about Light dying here and he will no doubt show up and die again at the end of the Manhunter arc.:wink:

[narm00]

Why is Spectre so powerful and dramatic now with the wrath? Had he visited the League at the time of the rape, his righteous anger may have had some meaning. Hell he could have stopped the League from scandalizing themselves for that matter with those damn magic lobotomies.

The Spectre's trigger, unfortunately for everyone involved, is murder, not rape. It was only when Light participated in J'onn's murder that he got on the Spectre's hitlist.


That and a commentator at scans_daily asking "so why doesn't the Spectre go after the OTHER big villains then? Why isn't he hitting Luthor? OR LIBRA?".

That's... pretty much what he's going to be doing in Revelations #1 - going after all those who participated in J'onn's murder. These /are/ only the first few pages.

But Rucka's said that the Spectre's going to discover he /can't/ kill at least one of the participants... and it's /really/ going to piss him off.

[40footwolf]

I saw that on Newsarama, but I wasn't under the impression that it killed him, for some reason. Hmm.

Lackluster.

[Cam63]

Not to get too fanfic bit here's all you need now, have Light and Sue pass each other in the afterlife. Light gloats at her and she makes it really clear that she's not angry any more and just feels sorry for him. This takes away all of his power and would hurt him more than anything.

Maybe... but I still think she needs to twist his nuts off.

[Tobias March]

That line was horrible to read. :redface: :frown:

Reminded me of Captain Planet and the Planeteers for some reason.

[Grazzt]

The Spectre's trigger, unfortunately for everyone involved, is murder, not rape. It was only when Light participated in J'onn's murder that he got on the Spectre's hitlist.

Actually, he's been a murderer longer than he has been a rapist, at least in real time:

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/9273/011fd8.jpg

[Charles RB]

What I'm wondering is when Dr Light started raping everything. He raped Sue out of pettiness and to get back at the League, and then suddenly when he remembers it he rapes everyone. Which he wasn't doing before (because surely that would've been mentioned in IDC).

Is every DC writer being ordered by editorial to show Light raping at least one person per story or something?


Anyone is capable of Murder, but it takes a monster to commit rape!

I'm afraid the amount of rapes throughout history imply that either humans are just as capable of that as they are of murder, or we're surrounded by monsters always.


That's... pretty much what he's going to be doing in Revelations #1 - going after all those who participated in J'onn's murder.

I bet most of them won't actually die.

And why specifically when J'Onn's murdered and not, say, all the other people those guys have murdered? Luthor's had it coming for years!

[Agent Helix]

What I'm wondering is when Dr Light started raping everything. He raped Sue out of pettiness and to get back at the League, and then suddenly when he remembers it he rapes everyone. Which he wasn't doing before (because surely that would've been mentioned in IDC).

Is every DC writer being ordered by editorial to show Light raping at least one person per story or something?



I'm afraid the amount of rapes throughout history imply that either humans are just as capable of that as they are of murder, or we're surrounded by monsters always.



I bet most of them won't actually die.

And why specifically when J'Onn's murdered and not, say, all the other people those guys have murdered? Luthor's had it coming for years!

This is precisely why this kind of thing has no emotional or even intellectual impact for me. It's all so clearly manufactured at an editorial level that it rings completely hollow. Identity Crisis, taken by itself, might have been an okay story, but someone, somewhere along the line, decided that Dr. Light should be the Rapetastic Rapeman, and be completely defined by the rape. Same with Sue Dibny, but I'm going to ignore her for the sake of this argument, as it's honestly tangential at this point.

DC seems like they decided they need a moral fall guy, a character that readers could jeer at and show how mature they are by decrying all the horrible things that Light suddenly (and arbitrarily) started doing. They generated this sort of sympathy bubble around him, where by just putting him in a story, every other character immediately becomes more appealing to the reader, simply because they're not THIS guy. It's a cheap, easy way of telling a story. You just decide that someone is really really really bad, therefore everyone opposed to him is really really really good.

But it just doesn't work. It's the same problem with the opening to Marvel's Civil War series. In context, blowing up one school just doesn't really seem all that bad compared to things like, oh, Ultron committing genocide, or any number of other greater disasters that caused more damage in the continuity driven Marvel Universe. It's hard to look at the incident intellectually and say that it's the last straw, because so much else had happened that we're meant to believe happened in the same timeline (that's the important thing), that it just sort of leads me to believe that if the average citizen of the Marvel U.S. wasn't crying for registration then, why are they bawling for it now? Because of convenience of the story, and it's the same thing with Light.

Light's a second stringer, and he always has been. I always sorta liked him, but he's kind of a chump. He was a fucking Teen Titans villain. Sorry Titans, but he's just not really a big league bad guy. So why in the name of fuck is the Spectre, the motherfucking wrath of GOD, coming after him, when so many more depraved, more evil, and more dangerous villains don't receive that kind of special care? Because it was arbitrarily decided that he's objectively worse than any number of mass murderers. It was arbitrarily decided that Light had to be the fall guy for all moral equivalency in the DC Universe. There's the implication here that the bad guy gets what's coming to him, but it's overshadowed by the clear fact that that only happens when it's editorially convenient.

I'm not going to make a rape vs. murder argument. Both crimes are awful, and I don't really care which is more most awfulest. But this is awful storytelling.

[Charles RB]

It's hard to look at the incident intellectually and say that it's the last straw, because so much else had happened that we're meant to believe happened in the same timeline (that's the important thing), that it just sort of leads me to believe that if the average citizen of the Marvel U.S. wasn't crying for registration then, why are they bawling for it now?

The idea was that this was worse because it was the New Warrior's actions that caused it to happen (throwing Nitro at a schoolbus and all).

Of course Nate Grey the X-Man devastated a whole city in Ecuador, the Fantastic Four took over Latveria and almost caused an international war, the X-Men allowed a disguised Magneto (XORN WAS MAGNETO DAMN IT) to join them whereupon he killed thousands of people, and every Marvel hero ever destroys people's stuff whenever they get snippy with each other.

I could see the Registration Act starting because the people of NYC are pissed off of the "hilarious" fights between Johnny Storm & Ben that always trash people's cars, businesses et al and they want a way for them to make them fucking stop...

[Agent Helix]

Well yeah, that's sort of my point. Given shit both the villains AND heroes have pulled in the Marvel U, the Stamford Incident makes no sense in context as a lynchpin to hang the story on. It was the only recent example I could think of as an analogue to the completely disproportionate level to which Dr. Light has been elevated to as a villain. In context of the larger universes, neither really makes much sense.

[Agent Helix]

Also, I've always thought it's really dumb whenever a character (in this case the Spectre) announces his or her name, and they suddenly talk in logo.

[LewisH]

going after all the bad guys permanently, then you may as well just object to the whole idea of super heroes entirely. Both the Flash and Superman can travel near light speed. Logically they could end ALL crime on the planet of ANY kind in a week or less. On top of that they aren't the only two heroes on the planet or even in the universe.


Anyway, if one has to come up with some sort of rationale for the Spectre I think we must postulate that there is some sort of equal and opposite force working out there. If the Spectre becomes unconstrained then that force becomes unconstrained as well. As a result, the Spectre can take vengeance in small ways presumably when the other spirit has inspired great acts of evil. This explains why Spectres from the other universes don't come after Superboy-Prime. Presumably that would free this evil force to break the multi-versal boundaries and cause even worse destruction and death than has already occurred. And so we must place our faith, even in this fictional universe on this:



When I despair, I remember that all through history the ways of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants, and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall. Think of it--always.

Mahatma Gandhi

[section 8]

I'm afraid the amount of rapes throughout history imply that either humans are just as capable of that as they are of murder, or we're surrounded by monsters always.


Likely the latter, a Crime of Passion murderer CAN be remorseful for his/her crime, and possibly rehabilitated.

But rapists? they just go to prison, and rape some more.

[Ryan Day]

Anyway, if one has to come up with some sort of rationale for the Spectre I think we must postulate that there is some sort of equal and opposite force working out there.

According to Ostrander's series, it's God that restrains the Spectre. Originally, the Spectre was the pure Wrath of God, wiping out Sodom and Gomorrah and slaughtering the first-born of the Egyptians. But after Christ, God realized the value of forgiveness, and bound the Spectre to a human host.

So the Spectre can wipe out entire civilizations if he wants. He was even going to destroy humanity in Ostrander's book (which, let's just admit it, is the only one that really counts).

The Spectre's a difficult character to integrate into the DCU for this reason. But I think you can interpret his mission to be punishing those who would otherwise escape justice: ie. Batman is going to catch the Joker, so the Spectre isn't needed there.

Of course, having him go after Dr. Light kind of circumvents that logic. So now you either a) have the Spectre wipe out all other supervillains, or b) come up with a convoluted plot that stops him from doing so.

[kitty_tc_69]

I think you can interpret his mission to be punishing those who would otherwise escape justice: ie. Batman is going to catch the Joker, so the Spectre isn't needed there.

Of course, having him go after Dr. Light kind of circumvents that logic. So now you either a) have the Spectre wipe out all other supervillains, or b) come up with a convoluted plot that stops him from doing so.

Or it marks out Dr Light as a special case. The spinelessness of the JLA allowed him to go basically unpunished, and free to repeat his crimes. The major heroes had already meted out their idea of justice and it was sorely lacking. Thus, given the whole double jeopardy thing, it's possible that Light would never have met justice for what he did to Sue Dibney. Especially with neither her nor her husband alive to avenge her any longer.

The mainline heroes fell down on the job, they failed to dispense adequate justice and would never have. They might have nailed Light on something else he did, but the scales of that original crime would have remained unbalanced for all time.

Thus, enter the Spectre (belatedly, sure, but better late than never) to finish the job the JLA failed to get done.

[heystacy]

Reminded me of Captain Planet and the Planeteers for some reason.

:redface: LOL

[Ryan Day]

Or it marks out Dr Light as a special case. The spinelessness of the JLA allowed him to go basically unpunished, and free to repeat his crimes.
...
Thus, enter the Spectre (belatedly, sure, but better late than never) to finish the job the JLA failed to get done.

But Light isn't really all that different. Does the Joker ever truly get punished? Does Lex Luthor? I mean, in a really biblical sense? Light got his memory taken away - isn't that more of a punishment than a 6-month stay in Arkham?

Of course, none of this makes much sense - it's a logical flaw that's almost inherent in the genre. It's best to just stay away from it entirely.

[Grazzt]

Of course, having him go after Dr. Light kind of circumvents that logic. So now you either a) have the Spectre wipe out all other supervillains, or b) come up with a convoluted plot that stops him from doing so.

He's escaped hell once, maybe this gives the Spectre a special perogative to put him back?

[Charles RB]

Anyway, if one has to come up with some sort of rationale for the Spectre I think we must postulate that there is some sort of equal and opposite force working out there.

But there isn't one, we'd have seen/heard of it by now.

Or it marks out Dr Light as a special case.

But he's not. Other villains have done worse. The Spectre doesn't do crap there.