Revelations #1 spoilers/discussions

[Seraku]

http://www.newsarama.com/php/multimedia/album.php?aid=20664

so basically Spectre lights Dr. Light up like a roman candle and melts him

[BoSoxJay]

That has to be just some normal chicks dressed up like the Titan's gals. What would prevent Donnat troy from just beating Light into dust or Starfire?

[berk]

I figured it was just a sick fantasy in his head. One uncomfortably close to the kind that you sometimes see in fanfic or even hinted at on messageboards, so it'll be interesting to see how fans react to that little scene.

[ShaggyB]

I thought they were random chics he kidnapped and was calling them by the heroes names.

Can you imagine the three girls going "which one of you is donna?"

[Sean Walsh]

I figured it was just a sick fantasy in his head. One uncomfortably close to the kind that you sometimes see in fanfic or even hinted at on messageboards, so it'll be interesting to see how fans react to that little scene.

That's what I was thinking as well - I mean, it couldn't be that easy, could it? But this is the Spectre we're talking about, so yeah it could be that easy. And the "dressing kidnapped girls up as Titans" is possibly too evil to pass up.

Either way, Dr. Light finally pays. :biggrin: :biggrin:

[the4thpip]

Don't you hate it when the light bill is higher than you expected?

[WorstThingUS]

That has to be just some normal chicks dressed up like the Titan's gals. What would prevent Donnat troy from just beating Light into dust or Starfire?

I think it's obvious that it's just women he likes to dress up like the Titans and abuse.

But Dr. Light's death? ABOUT FRIGGIN' TIME! And I hope it sticks, because I'm sick of seeing him run around unpunished. Sorry, but it's a horrible blow to every DC hero standing the amount of carnage that's gone on with zero response on their part. It was pathetic there wasn't even a hint that Wonder Woman would kill him (like she hinted she'd do!) when they finally caught him in JLA.

[Captain Smith]

Nice to see the Spectre back in the game. Of course, the next books (according to previews) have to keep him from just wiping out all the bad guys in one blast.

If you recall, the Corrigan Spectre was capable of willing away all the powers of the JLA in a blink. He could do that to all the bad guys and the show would be over.

GL-Spectre also blasted Darkseid into goo (who came back because the universe need him - the old Galactus/Reed Richards BS).

[Sean Walsh]

Don't you hate it when the light bill is higher than you expected?

That's why Crispus Allen endorses candlelight! :biggrin:

[celticguy]

I wonder if the new fate chimes in.

I look forward to the first meeting with the Question.

Um so Rene what's new?

Oh I learned some killer martial arts, nailed batwoman, and fought a cult and you?

Oh well you know I died, after that i got this gig as the vengence of God keeps me pretty busy.

Ok i will tell gordon you said hey.

[Captain Smith]

Wonder how this Spectre will interact with the JSI version that PG is visiting?

Probably the JSI world gets blown up - what else is new?

Also, we have a Kent Fate there.

[Sean Walsh]

Wonder how this Spectre will interact with the JSI version that PG is visiting?

Probably the JSI world gets blown up - what else is new?

Also, we have a Kent Fate there.

Depends on what the nature of this JSI Earth and its denizens is, really. Is it a legit alternate Earth, or some creation of Gog's (because despite being Mr. Smiley, he probably IS evil) and all its people are just fake/imaginary/whatever?

2 Spectres...........hmmm, that could be catastrophic.

[Superboy-Prime]

I hope to god Spectre Kills the Question, but knowing Rucka he wouldn't.

[Sean Walsh]

Bought it, read it, enjoyed the bleep out of it.

Interesting that Dr. Light basically gets a pass for rape and more rape, but killing a Martian is where God says "THOU DIES FOR THIS, DOCTOR LIGHT!" Also kinda delighted to see Effigy offed too.

And as expected, the art was just bloody wonderful. :smile:

[Lunal]

Spectre as Judge Dredd. Hmmm. Good art, looks like this series is going to be batting clean up on what the heroes don't get around to doing. Could come in handy.

[Jack Zodiac]

Light deserved a more ignoble death.

[Sabrinaset]

I agree with Zodiac Jack. There really should have been more of an emotional smackdown for everything he's done. ALL that happens is he gets turned into a candle and snuffed out? I guess it's better than nothing, but still ...

And I'm fully convinced Didio will bring him back in a couple years, and it'll be no big deal.

[dotdotdot]

that's pretty harsh of you guys. just go find the guy and melt him....it wasn't exactly a noble death. he didn't need to be tortured first or anything.
great issue, didn't expect to enjoy this so much. that art was the tits.

[Choppa]

So Light is a regular rapist? I thought that was just the one time thing as revenge.

[IamtheRock3]

Bought it, read it, enjoyed the bleep out of it.

Interesting that Dr. Light basically gets a pass for rape and more rape, but killing a Martian is where God says "THOU DIES FOR THIS, DOCTOR LIGHT!" Also kinda delighted to see Effigy offed too.

And as expected, the art was just bloody wonderful. :smile:

in fairness specter does view that as genocide

it is...by a pure tecnical sense

[Bruce Wayne Jr.]

So Light is a regular rapist? I thought that was just the one time thing as revenge.

Me too. They really should have scrapped that whole opening sequence.

[jAWSH!]

I'm glad Dr. Light got a death that conveyed him as the weak and cowardly jerk that he is.

Quick and painful. Let's hope other villains get the same...

[GRANT!]

What so no more speeches from Doctor Light about how much he loves rape?

What's happening to the DCU, man?

[Raker616]

I really would've loved for him to have suffered more but as long as he's dead i'm good, now if DC can kill off Superman Prime i'll be very happy.

[Dark Master]

I would've been happy if the comic was just 38 pages of Spectre slowly torturing Light to death. Personally i think it would've been much sweeter just to let Cheetah kill him like she wanted to do back in JLA.

[Dark Master]

And yes, Superwhiner Prime also needs to go.

[Jack Zodiac]

I agree with Zodiac Jack. There really should have been more of an emotional smackdown for everything he's done. ALL that happens is he gets turned into a candle and snuffed out? I guess it's better than nothing, but still ...

And I'm fully convinced Didio will bring him back in a couple years, and it'll be no big deal.

No, I think a complete lack of emotional connection would've been better. Instead of watching Light suffer his crimes, him simply being shot, beaten, or stabbed to death by anyone in the superheroic community, from Ambush Bug to Zzazz, would've been better.

[Venom Melendez]

I'm glad Dr. Light got a death that conveyed him as the weak and cowardly jerk that he is.

Quick and painful. Let's hope other villains get the same...

Then heroes would be out of a job. But really being this piss at a bad guy for doing bad things is silly.

[Onic]

It's certainly a ballsy way to kill someone off but hey, Dr. Light is dead, I'm not complaining.

[Venom Melendez]

And yes, Superwhiner Prime also needs to go.

Why? He's a good villain and he does what villains do. Being pissed at that is just stupid.

[Dark Master]

He should've taken Light to hell and had every demon take turns doing him "prison bitch" style.

[Dark Master]

Why? He's a good villain and he does what villains do. Being pissed at that is just stupid.

No hes a super powered 12 year old cry baby. The character is just annoying.

[Venom Melendez]

I would've been happy if the comic was just 38 pages of Spectre slowly torturing Light to death. Personally i think it would've been much sweeter just to let Cheetah kill him like she wanted to do back in JLA.

She's a hypocrite though. She's a murderer and a cannibal which is just as bad.

[Dark Master]

I am a law student and I have read over enough rape cases to know that it is just as bad as murder if not worse.

And her wanting to kill him made me like Cheetah abit.

[Venom Melendez]

No hes a super powered 12 year old cry baby. The character is just annoying.

Much like most net fans which is kinda the point. Plus most writers love writing him and his stories so far have been good.

[Venom Melendez]

I am a law student and I have read over enough rape cases to know that it is just as bad as murder if not worse.

And her wanting to kill him made me like Cheetah abit.

As i said plus a cannibal so she doesn't have much of moral high ground. News flash criminals are bad people and they do bad stuff so getting angry over it is silly.

[Dark Master]

Not really getting angry, just like the idea of them suffering for what they do in the most painful ways possible.

I'm big on the idea of vengence.

[Sean Walsh]

Me too. They really should have scrapped that whole opening sequence.

....and allow Dr. Light to rape and murder and rape for another day! YAY!!!

*lights torch and prepares pitchfork for raid on DC offices*

:tongue:

[Sean Walsh]

He should've taken Light to hell and had every demon take turns doing him "prison bitch" style.

Well, we do have REIGN IN HELL being published.

Perhaps we can petition Giffen for a brief panel of Doc Light crying and holding his bottom?

[Magneto Rocks]

So I'm the only one who doesn't think Doctor Light should be dead?

I mean, don't get me wrong, scum like that are monsters and should be locked away so that they never see the Sun again, but... as Allen points out in this issue, it's not JUSTICE. It's vengeance. And those two aren't the same thing, nor should they be mistaken for each other. I dunno, I just feel it would have been a lot better to see Light put away by justice.

[Sean Walsh]

So I'm the only one who doesn't think Doctor Light should be dead?

I mean, don't get me wrong, scum like that are monsters and should be locked away so that they never see the Sun again, but... as Allen points out in this issue, it's not JUSTICE. It's vengeance. And those two aren't the same thing, nor should they be mistaken for each other. I dunno, I just feel it would have been a lot better to see Light put away by justice.

Wait, isn't the Spectre all about vengeance?

While he wasn't when DeMatties was writing the Hal-Spectre series (Spirit of Redemption! Peace, maaaaan! :tongue: ), the Spectre certainly was about vengeance in the Ostrander/Mandrake series. Heck, he seemed worse there than ever.

It all depends on the host, really. Crispus Allen seems to be about both justice and vengeance, given his particular situation (former cop - killed in the line of duty - forced to kill his son after he killed Cris' murderer - now pissed off at God).

But in Doc's case, he committed genocide (killing the last Martian) - so he and Effigy had to die for that.

And no, Doc HAD to die. Blame whomever, but after the last few years he's had in the comics, redemption just wasn't possible and keeping him alive in future stories would've made him worse.

[Magneto Rocks]

Wait, isn't the Spectre all about vengeance?

Oh, absolutely, yes. That's basically what he is.

Which is one of the reasons I don't like the Spectre. :wink:

And no, Doc HAD to die. Blame whomever, but after the last few years he's had in the comics, redemption just wasn't possible and keeping him alive in future stories would've made him worse.

Story-wise, I agree, Doctor Light did have to die. But ethically speaking (And comics do love to play with ethics and morality these days), I don't think he should have.

[Dark Master]

I support captial punishment, so for me it was fine.

[WorstThingUS]

So Light is a regular rapist? I thought that was just the one time thing as revenge.

Me too. They really should have scrapped that whole opening sequence.

No. In Green Arrow he confesses to be a serial rapist and other books have expanded upon his treatment of women.

She's a hypocrite though. She's a murderer and a cannibal which is just as bad.

There is a pecking order amongst criminals and a rapist is seen as worse than a murderer. Though that cannibal thing is pretty awful. But only if you consider The Cheetah still human.

So I'm the only one who doesn't think Doctor Light should be dead?

I mean, don't get me wrong, scum like that are monsters and should be locked away so that they never see the Sun again, but... as Allen points out in this issue, it's not JUSTICE. It's vengeance. And those two aren't the same thing, nor should they be mistaken for each other. I dunno, I just feel it would have been a lot better to see Light put away by justice.

Well, that's kind of Allen's point throughout the book isn't it? But for me, death was justice for Dr. Light but I think another way would have been better. Remember Villains United when he vaguely threatens Talia with an eventual rape? I would have preferred that she had done it. And I remain pissed that Wonder Woman didn't even smack him around a bit when she once threatened to kill him.

[celticguy]

I am a law student and I have read over enough rape cases to know that it is just as bad as murder if not worse.

And her wanting to kill him made me like Cheetah abit.

To paraphrase a wise old Don.

this is not justice as she (in the abstract here) is still alive.

[Ghost Shark]

He should've taken Light to hell and had every demon take turns doing him "prison bitch" style.

That's exactly what I was thinking.

GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!

[Mat001]

He should've taken Light to hell and had every demon take turns doing him "prison bitch" style.

That's exactly what I was thinking.

GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!

If Grant Morrison wrote this, he would've done it.

Anyway, I think there will be a new evil Dr. Light.

[Onic]

Can somebody explain to me what the hospital scene was about, right before he killed Effigy?

[Spiffy]

Personally I thought this stank.

Sure, there was a crowd pleasing "Dr. Light finally gets his" moment, but it seemed to be written specifically to BE a crowd pleaser. And however much I've been uncomfortable with Morrison's empty, bleak storytelling, this kind of fan pandering is a disgusting contrast that maybe makes some of Morrison's points for him.

And really? The art decision to have Light's three potential victims drawn huddling in a corner, as if they were weeping traumatized victims? I know people will come back with the fact that they were simply stunned and heaped in a pile from the explosion we saw, but the drawing gave the impression that they were sitting there terrified (and next to a BED? Outside of fan fantasy would these three normally be in a bedroom together?). It may have been unintentional, but that's what it did. Did we need that kind of unintentional (at least I hope it was unintentional) misogynistic writing? If these ladies had actually been violated, that would be a scene we'd have to see, but seeing them drawn LOOKING like helpless victims? Is kind of disgusting. And totally doesn't fit the character of three DC Superheroines who are established as ass kickers, who'd be pulling themselves to their feet instantly to plant a fist into Light's face as quickly as possible.

And the ending? Talk about fan fantasy stuff. I'm sure there have been hardons to see the two former police parterns take on each other for a long time.

I've been a Rucka fan many times in the past, but this was a disaster to me.

Ah well. I'm sure I'll get an ass chewing from people here for this. But that's how I feel.

[Dark Master]

They were only women DRESSED like titans.

And yes it was very pleasing to see him killed I only wish there was a whole comic devoted to it in detial.

[Spiffy]

They were only women DRESSED like titans.

And yes it was very pleasing to see him killed I only wish there was a whole comic devoted to it in detial.
Geez, who could tell with that murky art? I suppose that makes sense, although then this whole scenario with him hiring hookers or something like that has to be imagined.

Still, there are the other aspects--the "this is a fan wish fulfillment" aspects to not only Light's death, but also the upcoming Spectre/Question battle. So I retract the bit about the potential Titans rape, but the other objections remain.

[Paperghost]

And really? The art decision to have Light's three potential victims drawn huddling in a corner, as if they were weeping traumatized victims? I know people will come back with the fact that they were simply stunned and heaped in a pile from the explosion we saw, but the drawing gave the impression that they were sitting there terrified (and next to a BED? Outside of fan fantasy would these three normally be in a bedroom together?). It may have been unintentional, but that's what it did. Did we need that kind of unintentional (at least I hope it was unintentional) misogynistic writing? If these ladies had actually been violated, that would be a scene we'd have to see, but seeing them drawn LOOKING like helpless victims? Is kind of disgusting. And totally doesn't fit the character of three DC Superheroines who are established as ass kickers, who'd be pulling themselves to their feet instantly to plant a fist into Light's face as quickly as possible.

weren't they just supposed to be people dressed up as those characters and not the actual characters themselves?

/ edit - someone beat me to it

[Sean Walsh]

Can somebody explain to me what the hospital scene was about, right before he killed Effigy?

....there are, what, 5 more issues to this miniseries? I figure we'll find out in one of them.

[Paul Newell]

Geez, who could tell with that murky art?
One panel you can quite clearly see that Donna Troy is Asian, Raven is blonde and Starfire is African American.

[Lunal]

Wait, isn't the Spectre all about vengeance?

I think its clear from the inner dialogue going on in this issue that the Spectre doesn't quite know what he is all about...yet. I am hoping thats what this is ultimately leading to - a more defined role for him for the next few years.

[ultramandingo]

If Grant Morrison wrote this, he would've done it.
.

......... im pretty sure garth ennis allready did it or some thing like it - heck he had a suicide bomber changing diapers of his 40 infant virgin brides for eterntiy in hell - zing

[Dark Master]

I think its clear from the inner dialogue going on in this issue that the Spectre doesn't quite know what he is all about...yet. I am hoping thats what this is ultimately leading to - a more defined role for him for the next few years.

I would like to see The Spectre as a more stable character, the way he was before Corrigon left.

[Joe Acro]

I've been following the adventures of Crispus Spectre and I have to say, this issue offers a really nice insight into the character.

I'm intrigued by a Spectre who hates being the Spectre, that hates God, no less, for making him be the Spectre. Kinda like Hal, but without wanting to change his role in the universe.

Very cool.

[chriskenny]

....there are, what, 5 more issues to this miniseries? I figure we'll find out in one of them.

I agree, but lately comics have gotten really bad at teasing upcoming events by having random pages where something ordinary and not-so-interesting happens with no CLUE or tease as to how it fits in with the larger story. It just seems random. While I assumed there would be an exploration in subsequent issues, it didn't seem very artfully done.

[chriskenny]

Personally I thought this stank.

Sure, there was a crowd pleasing "Dr. Light finally gets his" moment, but it seemed to be written specifically to BE a crowd pleaser. And however much I've been uncomfortable with Morrison's empty, bleak storytelling, this kind of fan pandering is a disgusting contrast that maybe makes some of Morrison's points for him.

And really? The art decision to have Light's three potential victims drawn huddling in a corner, as if they were weeping traumatized victims? I know people will come back with the fact that they were simply stunned and heaped in a pile from the explosion we saw, but the drawing gave the impression that they were sitting there terrified (and next to a BED? Outside of fan fantasy would these three normally be in a bedroom together?). It may have been unintentional, but that's what it did. Did we need that kind of unintentional (at least I hope it was unintentional) misogynistic writing? If these ladies had actually been violated, that would be a scene we'd have to see, but seeing them drawn LOOKING like helpless victims? Is kind of disgusting. And totally doesn't fit the character of three DC Superheroines who are established as ass kickers, who'd be pulling themselves to their feet instantly to plant a fist into Light's face as quickly as possible.

And the ending? Talk about fan fantasy stuff. I'm sure there have been hardons to see the two former police parterns take on each other for a long time.

I've been a Rucka fan many times in the past, but this was a disaster to me.

Ah well. I'm sure I'll get an ass chewing from people here for this. But that's how I feel.

I'm glad you caught the fact it wasn't the actually characters. You are right, it isn't too easy to see and it was never explicitly stated. You can't rely on the coloring, but I noticed Donna Troy's arm bands didn't fit her, which clued me in.

I just have a general problem with using sexual abuse as a central story point in a comic that features superheroes in an all-audiences comic. The Comedian assaulting Sally Jupiter is one thing, for instance, because it is a book that undermines the conventions of the genre and it is for adults. But I think in the general audiences books, it makes me a bit queasy.

[The Xenos]

Sure, sure. Dr Light finally got killed. The bastard. Took long enough.

I don't get why more people aren't talking about the end to the book too. Allen and Montoya meet up again in their new identities and one of them is there to judge the other on a cosmic scale. Wow. That's the real reason I got the book.

[Spiffy]

Sure, sure. Dr Light finally got killed. The bastard. Took long enough.

I don't get why more people aren't talking about the end to the book too. Allen and Montoya meet up again in their new identities and one of them is there to judge the other on a cosmic scale. Wow. That's the real reason I got the book.
Or perhaps a reason to hate it.

[Dark Master]

Sure, sure. Dr Light finally got killed. The bastard. Took long enough.

I don't get why more people aren't talking about the end to the book too.

People have been waiting a long time for that disgusting thing to die. It kind of overshadows the rest of the book.

[WorstThingUS]

Sure, sure. Dr Light finally got killed. The bastard. Took long enough.

I don't get why more people aren't talking about the end to the book too. Allen and Montoya meet up again in their new identities and one of them is there to judge the other on a cosmic scale. Wow. That's the real reason I got the book.

Not me. I could care less. I just wanted to see Dr. Light die. I may not pick up another issue without a guarantee of more super-villain death. It's been four years since Identity Crisis. I've had enough of this crap. I want some justice in the DCU.

[the4thpip]

I hope that the upcoming issues actually live up to the title. So far we had some hints, new questions and no revelations at all. :tongue:

[celticguy]

what is the fallout for the spectre since he can't do anything to Libra?

Does that mean Libra is God or the Source?

will his powers be reduced in the 5th world?

[carabas]

And the ending? Talk about fan fantasy stuff. I'm sure there have been hardons to see the two former police parterns take on each other for a long time.

I've been a Rucka fan many times in the past, but this was a disaster to me.I don't get it. Montoya and Allen reunited is practically the book's main selling point. Given that both ex-cops have gotten into their current lin of work through the fall-out of the same tragic event (Allen's murder), how is them joining forces anything but a natural progression of their story? They were partners for years. Calling their reunion a fan fantasy is like calling a Nightwing/Batman team-up a fan fantasy.


As fo an earlier comment from someone else, regarding the Spectre's seeming disregard for the rapes... the Spectre is extremely specialised in what he can and cannot do. Pretty much the only thing it is allowed to do is to avenge the murdered. Doc Light didn't kill Sue Dibney, so that is completely out of his jurisdiction (although it did its level best to get Jean Loring in 52).

[carabas]

what is the fallout for the spectre since he can't do anything to Libra?

Does that mean Libra is God or the Source?

will his powers be reduced in the 5th world?I can think of three reasons:
-It is simply a matter of jurisdiction, and Libra is from outside the Specter's uni/multiverse. Maybe tied with him not being able to get Libra's true name.
-Libra is performing a role that is deemed necessary in the grand sceme of things, and therefore the Spectre is not allowed to interfere by his creator.
-Darkseid simply much more powerful the Spectre now, and protects his prophet.

[Sean Walsh]

-Darkseid simply much more powerful the Spectre now, and protects his prophet.

Darkseid was proven to be a universal necessity a few years ago - in the one awesome issue of DeMatteis' SPECTRE series. Hal-Spectre tried to destroy him, but could not - because Darkseid was an agent of evil and thus HAD to exist.

Explains a lot about how/why Darkseid survived the death of the New Gods, huh? :wink:

That Spectre story, BTW......written by John Ostrander. :smile:

[carabas]

Darkseid was proven to be a universal necessity a few years ago - in the one awesome issue of DeMatteis' SPECTRE series. Hal-Spectre tried to destroy him, but could not - because Darkseid was an agent of evil and thus HAD to exist.Darkseid being 'necessary' is not quite the same as Darkseid having the power to grant his minions Specter-immunity as well.
Also, this was covered under my second reason.

[BoSoxJay]

Loved this comic. Thought Light's punishment was kinda cool being turned into a giant candle and all and I esp. liked his head on fire as the wick when Spectre snuffed him out with his fingers. Good times. With all the talk about Light no one has mentioned the death of Nero in this issue. He was one of my fave Rayner Era GL bad guys. He sorta got turned into a jobber in the SInestro Corps war and by Ion Yat but I was surprised they offed him. What surprised me more was that Spectre stuffed him into a Power Battery. Isn't that relatively dangerous since that is how Parallax was hiding out before he took over Hal or is this just supposed to be a metaphorical Power Battery of the Spectre's creation?

[celticguy]

I can think of three reasons:
-It is simply a matter of jurisdiction, and Libra is from outside the Specter's uni/multiverse. Maybe tied with him not being able to get Libra's true name.
-Libra is performing a role that is deemed necessary in the grand sceme of things, and therefore the Spectre is not allowed to interfere by his creator.
-Darkseid simply much more powerful the Spectre now, and protects his prophet.


I lean towards # 2

[narm00]

What surprised me more was that Spectre stuffed him into a Power Battery. Isn't that relatively dangerous since that is how Parallax was hiding out before he took over Hal or is this just supposed to be a metaphorical Power Battery of the Spectre's creation?

Supposed to be a construct, according to Rucka over on the ComicBloc forums. When someone suggested it was the real thing, Rucka said he'd mention the idea to Geoff Johns... :biggrin:

[the4thpip]

I can think of three reasons:
-It is simply a matter of jurisdiction, and Libra is from outside the Specter's uni/multiverse. Maybe tied with him not being able to get Libra's true name.
-Libra is performing a role that is deemed necessary in the grand sceme of things, and therefore the Spectre is not allowed to interfere by his creator.
-Darkseid simply much more powerful the Spectre now, and protects his prophet.

Could Libra be the Earth 2 Jim Corrigan?

[BoSoxJay]

Yeah, but i assume Spectre was sent to the ol' strip bar because he was told to take out Libra by the Big Guy. There is a weird dealio in this issue. Spectre talks about how revenge is not justice and that justice is about "balance" while what he does for God is about getting even. Well, Libra is pretty much another name for "blalance" and he even states when he first appeared that he is here to balance out the scales So, to me, this is significant but I do not know how. Either Spectre cannot hurt him because it would throw off the "balance" Libra represents or, like Spectre is God's Wrath, Libra is his counterpart with Darseid. In essence he is Darkseid's wrath and thus cancels out the Spectre's powers

[Sean Walsh]

With all the talk about Light no one has mentioned the death of Nero in this issue. He was one of my fave Rayner Era GL bad guys. He sorta got turned into a jobber in the SInestro Corps war and by Ion Yat but I was surprised they offed him. What surprised me more was that Spectre stuffed him into a Power Battery. Isn't that relatively dangerous since that is how Parallax was hiding out before he took over Hal or is this just supposed to be a metaphorical Power Battery of the Spectre's creation?

1) That was Effigy, another fire-based Kyle Rayner foe; Alex Nero was last seen during SCW someplace.

2) It wasn't a real power battery. It did kinda stun me for a second, but it was all part of Spectre killing people in ironic ways.

[Sean Walsh]

BTW, I really liked how the Hangmen came back to life in this issue.....

FYI - the Hangmen were a bunch of old Titans villains (from Jay Faerber's run, IIRC, back in the series that preceded the current Teen Titans book) who were revealed in MANHUNTER to have been killed by Dr. Psycho during INFINITE CRISIS in the giant Metropolis brawl. Turns out Psycho just faked their deaths so they could resume their careers as paid assassins.

.....and were then quickly introduced to death for good a couple pages later. :biggrin:

[Dark Master]

I think the power battery death will be tied into Blackest Knight. Perhaps this will help create the orange lantern, Effigy is the servant of the Controllers after all.

[Jarath]

I enjoyed this but I don't think it was as good as Requim or Rogue's. Still time to improve though and I will buy it as I like the new Question.

I hope all the FC minis are as good as the ones that have started already.

[Samuraixsithlord]

This issue just reinforces my belief that Libra is the "true" evil behind Final Crisis and he's just manipulating Darkseid to his own ends.

[Dark Master]

One thing I have to wonder is why doesn't the Spectre go after the Joker?

Cripis Allen was from Gotham, he should know all about what the Joker has done. And surely the Joker has racked up enough evil to warrant punishment.

[Seraku]

gotta admit I chuckled at this:

http://www.comicsbulletin.com/reviews/12188604453613.htm

Oh dearly departed Dr. Light,

You will be a pair of shoes that might never be filled. You were the ray of hope for everything a super-villain could, and should, be.

My first experience with you was with Identity Crisis. To say I “jumped right into your shenanigans” is a gross underestimate. You showed me what it means to truly be evil. You went from C to A-list by simply “spending a quite night looking at the stars” with Sue Dibney, the Elongated Man’s wife. Your reputation put Lex Luthor and the Joker, combined, to shame. And this was just the first act of your magnum opus.

You then turned to children. I mean, what else could possibly “one-up” a good raping? Oh course, pedophilia! So you sat in your candy van, sun tanned by the kiddie pool, and watched some little league baseball games from afar, up in a tree, with some binoculars. You truly became the monster in the closet of the DCU.

It is for this that we honor you, Dr. Light. For everything you were and everything you could have become, if it wasn’t for the horrid, horrid vengeance that was brought down upon thee. I pray you find a safe place in the after-life. I hear it’s better there anyway.

Bravo to a job well done.*

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3071/2762147653_57ed39f082.jpg?v=0

*Erik Norris does not condone the actions of rape or pedophilia. He is, however, still waiting on his Sue Dibney / Dr. Light action figure set.

[Dark Master]

I gotta admit, I am sickened by that.

[Joe Acro]

One thing I have to wonder is why doesn't the Spectre go after the Joker?

Cripis Allen was from Gotham, he should know all about what the Joker has done. And surely the Joker has racked up enough evil to warrant punishment.
That's actually been addressed in the past. Essentially, the notion was that the Spectre can't kill him because he's insane.

[Spiffy]

One thing I have to wonder is why doesn't the Spectre go after the Joker?

Cripis Allen was from Gotham, he should know all about what the Joker has done. And surely the Joker has racked up enough evil to warrant punishment.
It seems key to the Spectre's struggle that the host doesn't really have any control over target selection. And only minimal influence over the actual execution.

He doesn't get to pick what he does. Someone/thing else does. From the narrative, we have assume... God.

EDIT:

That's actually been addressed in the past. Essentially, the notion was that the Spectre can't kill him because he's insane.
Well, I guess that works too. Doesn't invalidate my point, either. I don't recall if its always been this way, but at the very least it is now.

[Seraku]

yeah, if the spectre could choose his victims then Cris' son would still be alive.

[Grico]

Well the whole "Spectre cannot do anything" made me think first that Libra is the biblical Cain. Can't be harmed or the person is cursed etc. One would assume it wouldn't be Cain, the lovable rogue from Sandman certaintly, and the general speculation seems to be Libra is someone we "know" so probably not, but there is where I went first. Issue was decent, although the Spectre going around killing villains seemed like a can of worms I wouldn't want to open. How many DC villains objectively deserve a vengeful whooping and ironic death by the homicide standard? I would say quite alot, but we cannot actually have Spectre kill a bunch of them for the good of future stories. And where was the murder of Human Flame? He seemed pretty vital to the whole Martian murder.

[Spiffy]

Well the whole "Spectre cannot do anything" made me think first that Libra is the biblical Cain.
Seems to me, if the Bible is involved, the name of the miniseries points to the Book of Revelation.

[Seraku]

Well, Libra brings up that the rock was the world's first murder weapon (SUCK IT Meltzer). Plus Cain is a major prophet of the Religion of Crime, which should be connected to Darkseid in SOME way since this IS an FC tie in

[Lester C.]

1. John was able to regenerate from a severed hand. He should be able to come back from a little sun burn.
2. How is it genocide when you have the White Martians as well as the green female martain that was running around the DCU for a while?

[Seraku]

with no males the pure green martians are gone

[Spiffy]

How is it genocide when you have the White Martians as well as the green female martain that was running around the DCU for a while?
You don't have to actually end an entire race for it to be genocide.

http://www.preventgenocide.org/genocide/officialtext.htm

[bannermanonemillion]

OK, seeing Doctor Light get melted down to candle wax made me put up devil horns like I'm listening to a cool metal album!

[Evil-Ryan]

Meh... I could have done without Dr. Light dying. As much as everyone hated the character for being a rapist and a pedo, I thought he was a good villain. Comics today need more of that. With internal emotional conflicts becomming the centerpiece of many of today's stories, or heroes fighting over opposing ideologies, and established villains turning good and or simply becomming old and cliche. Comics need new or revamped villains to fill the shoes.

I felt Light filled those shoes nicely. He was a villain in the truest sense. No, he wasn't the usual corny "Curses, you foiled my evil plot!" take over the world for the thoudandth time bad guy. This guy was a sick monster. He raped, he killed, he was a liar and a user and coward. He had no noble qualities whatsoever, but he was very powerful. You're not supposed to like or empathise with the villain, you're supposed to cheer when he loses. That's why he's the villain. But, you need him to come back and fight the heroes again. Otherwise, the story is over and there's no point to the hero anymore.

Wait... who am I kidding? Light will be back in a year anyway :P

[Dark Master]

How was he a good villian, you can have an effective villian without making them a disgusting rapist.

I hope he stays dead, or they just have a new Doctor Light with someone else.

[Evil-Ryan]

How was he a good villian, you can have an effective villian without making them a disgusting rapist.

I hope he stays dead, or they just have a new Doctor Light with someone else.



Do you even know what evil means?

Yeah, he was a vile piece of garbage. That's what made him a villain. They can't all be bank robbers and evil scientists ya know. You need one or two that are just plain scum. You're not always supposed to like what a bad guy does, that's why he's the bad guy. Some villains are supposed to be the complete opposite of the hero, not just someone who could have been or could still be a hero if they stopped robbing banks or instead of trying to rule the world they cured a disease or something.

For every shining beacon of hope that is Superman or Captain Marvel, you need a Dr. Light that is everything that they stand against.

[Dark Master]

You can still do that without making him a rapist. For myself and most on here that is taking it too far.

[Evil-Ryan]

You can still do that without making him a rapist. For myself and most on here that is taking it too far.


Then how would he be different than all the other villains? To be honest, it made his motivations more realistic. How many times is Captain Cold gonna get tossed in jail before he figures out robbing banks isn't working? How many killer robots is Sivana going to toss at Marvel before he says, "Hey, why am I even doing this?" Even the most hardened thieves rethink their choices after a few stays in jail.

Light was a sicko serial rapist who motivations were to dominate and control people in the most extreme way possible. The guy was evil schmuck who deserved to die. Doesn't mean it was good for the stories overall to kill of such a vile sack of crap. Now we're stuck with run of the mill bank robbers and cliche world conquerors who can't get it through their heads that they aren't going to win.

[Seraku]

they just have a new Doctor Light.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Light_%28Kimiyo_Hoshi%29

[Spiffy]

Evil-Ryan is completely right, at least as far as how ridiculous what gets referred to as "villains" are in comics.

At the same time as admitting that though, I DO also think that from a practical standpoint, a marketing one, we have to accept that people aren't going to want to see rape in comic books. I mean we already accept, for example, the ridiculous premise that the major heroes don't kill enemies. We're already in a fantasy-land. But the gloss of a super powered rapist might be a bit too much for readers to accept, versus the more ordinary kind, because the ordinary kind are more like insects burrowed into woodwork that you can't all track down. The supervillain rapist is too "in your face".

But there's a balance. And if you don't respect it, then things get ridiculous. That's why I characterized the way Light went as ridiculous fan fantasy garbage. This isn't the real world, yes, but its also not "Press Button A on your console to see Dr. Light get burned to a crisp. Press Button B on your console to see Dr. Light get raped by wild apes. Press Button C..."

The DC world probably needs rapists to seem even a little bit realistic... but... that doesn't mean we have to SEE them. I wish they'd just left Light alone and simply stopped writing him into stories. It would serve to remind that scummier forms of evil existed well enough to have the occasional story where the Birds of Prey break up a child prostitution ring, or Superman gets really angry and forces a murdering dictator out of power, or Diana Prince works in a women's shelter, hears a story of a wife beater, and then Wonder Woman shows up at his house and beats the pulp out of him.

[Seraku]

but its also not "Press Button A on your console to see Dr. Light get burned to a crisp. Press Button B on your console to see Dr. Light get raped by wild apes. Press Button C..."


you are aware that's what the spectre does for a living:tongue:

but in all seriousness I agree with you wholeheartedly

[Dark Master]

I think we can have really dark villains and still stay away from the subject of sexually based crime.

[Spiffy]

What makes it worse is that DC typically has this ridiculous premise that virtually all criminals know that they are "evil". Whereas in the real world, a lot of criminals try to justify their behavior and definite themselves almost like they are the ones who are the victims. Often its bullshit, but its self-delusional bullshit. DC criminals are too self-aware of their guilt--not delusional enough. Okay, strike that. Not delusional enough about their motives, since there are other kinds of delusion.

This trickles down to even the sickest criminals, I think. Some of them deny to their graves that they were doing anything wrong, or blame god, or their family history, or TV shows, or whatever. Seeing Dr. Light, not just a rapist, but a GLOATING one, fits a minority of the type, so its even more glaring. Where's his self-loathing? His gibbering denials? His blame shifting? (Okay we saw some of that in respect to Martian Manhunter's murder, but it would be even more typical if he was ever confronted about his other crimes...)

[JCAll]

Ya know, I've been waiting for literally YEARS for someone to murder Doctor Light. Having the Spectre do it took all the joy out of the moment.

[Jarath]

You can still do that without making him a rapist. For myself and most on here that is taking it too far.

I don't understand this. The point of villians is that they don't follow the moral code of the rest of society (with a few exceptions that follow codes of honour). Rape happens in the real world, if normal people do it then if the wrong person gets super powers they will also do it.

I'm not saying that rape should be the benchmark of what makes a villian A-grade villianous but the fact of the matter is that if a rapist gets super powers they are still going to be a rapist.

[Jack Zodiac]

Ya know, I've been waiting for literally YEARS for someone to murder Doctor Light. Having the Spectre do it took all the joy out of the moment.

It elevated Dr. Light, and debased The Spectre. In our own reality, if a known rapist is free to run around doing whatever he wants, victims, friends and family of his victims, and people with a more violent sense of morality are eventually going to lynch him. One way or another, Dr. Light was going to, and had to die. He isn't a character anybody can use anymore without directly bringing up rape, and a character like that won't exist long in mainstream superhero comics.

[Lester C.]

I have the same problem with Light's death that I do with Martian Manhunter's death. It's not the death I mind, but the way it was done. It should have been the ultimate payoff moment after years of build up in Light's case not on the sixth page of the first issue.

[Lester C.]

I have the same problem with Light's death that I do with Martian Manhunter's death. It's not the death I mind, but the way it was done. It should have been the ultimate payoff moment after years of build up in Light's case not on the sixth page of the first issue.

[Dark Master]

I don't understand this. The point of villians is that they don't follow the moral code of the rest of society (with a few exceptions that follow codes of honour). Rape happens in the real world, if normal people do it then if the wrong person gets super powers they will also do it.

I'm not saying that rape should be the benchmark of what makes a villian A-grade villianous but the fact of the matter is that if a rapist gets super powers they are still going to be a rapist.

Yes but it may not be the best subject matter for a comics villain,

My only problem with Lights death is that is was too quick and not painful enough.

[WorstThingUS]

I don't understand this. The point of villians is that they don't follow the moral code of the rest of society (with a few exceptions that follow codes of honour). Rape happens in the real world, if normal people do it then if the wrong person gets super powers they will also do it.

I'm not saying that rape should be the benchmark of what makes a villian A-grade villianous but the fact of the matter is that if a rapist gets super powers they are still going to be a rapist.

What he's saying is, the fantasy simply will not handle this level of reality since we all know villains never really get punished for their crimes. They half to come back. Luthor has to come back to attempt to rule the world. The Joker has to come back to kill. Dr. Light would have to continue raping, relatively unpunished and that would just be too much for some. The thing about comics is, you can bring back the dead. You cannot un-rape Sue Dibny. Even if you brought her back from the dead, she'd still be a victim of sexual assault.

[Sean Walsh]

I have the same problem with Light's death that I do with Martian Manhunter's death. It's not the death I mind, but the way it was done. It should have been the ultimate payoff moment after years of build up in Light's case not on the sixth page of the first issue.

*crosses fingers for DR. LIGHT: REQUIEM - 40 PAGES OF MORE TORTUROUS DEATH's solicitation in December* :biggrin:

[Syphre Zero]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Light_%28Kimiyo_Hoshi%29

I had the very same thought: right now, somewhere in DCU Tokyo, Kimiyo Hoshi is pumping fists.

[Lunal]

What he's saying is, the fantasy simply will not handle this level of reality since we all know villains never really get punished for their crimes. They half to come back. Luthor has to come back to attempt to rule the world. The Joker has to come back to kill. Dr. Light would have to continue raping, relatively unpunished and that would just be too much for some. The thing about comics is, you can bring back the dead. You cannot un-rape Sue Dibny. Even if you brought her back from the dead, she'd still be a victim of sexual assault.

Sure you could unrape Sue Dibny. DC could undo Identity Crisis in one fell swoop.

What they can't undo is that they decided, as a company, to rape a beloved character in the first place, and then let the culprit run around free.

[atomicturtle]

You cannot un-rape Sue Dibny. Even if you brought her back from the dead, she'd still be a victim of sexual assault.

Sure you can. Just get Emokid Prime to punch reality again.


Also... did anyone here SERIOUSLY think those girls were really Donna, Star and Raven? I mean, come on - you'd have to be retarded to believe that. They were obviously hookers or something.



You know, after reading the entire thread - I've come to agree with the general sentiment about Spectre being the one to take out Dr. Light. It doesn't seem right. Spectre tends to get all the freaks nobody knows about - the non-supervillain monsters that tend to go unchecked by the capes and evade the cops. After reading some of the comments here, the thought that popped into my head was - they're right. Dr. Light was a monster, sure, but there's a lot of bad guys in the DCU that are a whole lot worse. If Dr. Light is on the Spectre's radar - why not Joker? Or Dr. Psycho? Heck, I can think of at least three cannibals in the DCU that never seemed to bother the Spectre. It seems like an ill-conceived plot device to forward this Spectre story, and how how serious the Crisis is.

It just seems off. The supervillains have never really been in The Spectre's purview before. To have him kill Dr. Light doesn't really follow our expectations of either character. Now, one of those hookers jamming a screwdriver in his ear while he wasn't looking - THAT would have been an amazing death for Dr. Light. And then maybe Spectre could have gone after HER. Or something.

[Samy]

Dr. Light should have suffered more. It was too quick for somebody like him.

And I speak as a Dr. Light fan. I think he's a great villain that contributes a lot to the DCU. But after what he's done, he simply should have died in a much much more prolonged fashion than a quick and easy way out.

I hope when they bring him back one day, it'll be the lobotomized and as Hawkman said, "cleaned up a bit" version. He was a great comic relief but there was no way they could have done that again with the current incarnation of him. I hope they re-lobotomize him again so he can be enjoyed as a fun schmuck again.

[Harding Prime]

The Spectre has never really killed an Alist character, why are we starting now? And yes, Light is an A list character, since Identity Crisis, or else this thread wouldn't already be out of control.

[Samy]

The Spectre has never really killed an Alist character, why are we starting now?Better late than never?

[Harding Prime]

Better late than never?

Eh, if this becomes the beginning of the end of the Spectre, which may be place.If he continues as is, no one is off limits anymore, and that makes everything less fun.

[Samy]

Speak for yourself. I'd pay big money to see the Spectre light up Joker and Luthor.

[Dark Master]

Dr Light I think was killed because of the readers feelings towards him.

But in most cases I think the reason The Spectre doesn't kill the other major villains is because on some level God wants the struggle between Good and Evil to continue.

[Harding Prime]

Like Libra...

[Spiffy]

Dr Light I think was killed because of the readers feelings towards him.

But in most cases I think the reason The Spectre doesn't kill the other major villains is because on some level God wants the struggle between Good and Evil to continue.
As I said earlier, it was Fan Fantasy Wish Fulfillment time. Got slammed for it too! :biggrin:

[Sean Walsh]

The Spectre has never really killed an Alist character, why are we starting now? And yes, Light is an A list character, since Identity Crisis, or else this thread wouldn't already be out of control.

Dr. Light was elevated to A list (I'd say more like B+) because of something a lot of people didn't like.

So he HAD to be taken down, because he wasn't genuinely put in the A/B+ list. :tongue:

[Captain Smith]

Don't some of the Relevations previews state that Cain is involved with the Spectre?

BTW, how did the Spear of D. get to the bottom of the ocean. I forget - I last remember it going into space.

About the Spectre taking on A-list types - he only does that if he doesn't actually take them out. :smile:

He weakened the AntiMonitor. Was chastized by God for not taking him out.
He weakened Parallax
He failed on the Great Black Finger (beast)
He blew up Darkseid who regenerated
He said he could take the Sun Eater but it wasn't his mission.
He toyed with Bats but said - Never mind. Bats wanted Spec to tell him about Mommy and Daddy Wayne.
He consistenly took out Fate.

But if he just wiped folks out - he would be a Deux Ex Machina. So his full power usage has to be limited. Taking out Light was not because Light was supervillian but because his victims cried for revenge. The Spec shows up in courtrooms to take out evil normal folks who do bad things.

Spec had to be convinced several times to join a major superhero slug fest and is reluctant.

Libra (maybe Cain) is involved in some cosmic level thingee and Spec is reluctant to intervene in those.

I did like his little fit after being punched and nailing those low level supervillians and Libra asked him if he felt better now.

[Harding Prime]

Dr. Light was elevated to A list (I'd say more like B+) because of something a lot of people didn't like.

So he HAD to be taken down, because he wasn't genuinely put in the A/B+ list. :tongue:

I'm not disagreeing. Lets just hope that it stops at A list rappists and not all the actually good characters from the start.

[Sean Walsh]

BTW, how did the Spear of D. get to the bottom of the ocean. I forget - I last remember it going into space.


Wasn't there a JSA Classified story a year back or so where Wildcat and Jay Garrick were being forced to fight each other because of the Spear?

[Angelo2113]

...Libra is a bad a**! This issue made him more interesting than most of the villains from the entire DCU!

I can't wait for them to explain who or what Libra is.