Brand New Day

[Wrigley]

I know I'm behind, but I've just read the collected one more day and brand new day and I've figured out why I hate it.

We've watched Spiderman mature, and now it is all back to the akward teen. I liked seeing the maturation in him; I am just struggling to go back 40 years.

It is a different character, and i'm not sure you can go back.

But Bucky is alive; what do I know?

[Michael P]

No, you've pretty much got it. The problem with regressing Spider-Man to the way he was in the '70s is that the '70s are over. (And also, frankly,. '70s Spider-Man wasn't very good in the first place.)

[shrike]

But Bucky is alive; what do I know?

Well for starters, that Bucky is alive.

[Flamebird]

I know I'm behind, but I've just read the collected one more day and brand new day and I've figured out why I hate it.



For that, you have our sincere apologies.:wink:

[Michael P]

For that, you have our sincere apologies.:wink:

Not mine. I didn't have shit to do with 'em.

He has my pity, though.

[kitty_tc_69]

Yay, a topic I can totally agree with!

My Spider-man is the grown-up, experienced, black-costumed badass we saw in the mid-80's in classics like Spider-Man vs Wolverine and The Death of Jean DeWolff. And yes, my Spider-Man is married. The return of the awkward, wisecracky, immature rookie is nothing more than a midlife crisis in spandex.

The whole thing is a clusterfuck of the highest order. I remain amazed that it ever saw print, and will most likely be remembered as one of the great fiascos of comic book history.

[Flamebird]

Any time a story makes me remember the clone saga fondly; is BAD!

[Erik Burnham]

They want Spidey evergreen. I can understand that. And young. Okay.

Folks, we have Ultimate and Marvel Adventures Spidey working just fine in that regard.

Unless they don't count. (;

[Michael P]

They want Spidey evergreen. I can understand that. And young. Okay.

Folks, we have Ultimate and Marvel Adventures Spidey working just fine in that regard.

Unless they don't count. (;

Heh. That's exactly what the argument belies: a lack of belief in the validity of the Ultimate and Marvel Adventures brands. Oh, they're OK for the kiddies or the nuveau posers coming in nowadays, but for Real, True Fans, the only Spidey that "counts" is the original. And he has to be single, or it's all out of joint.

The argument really is fallacy heaped upon fallacy.

[section 8]

and Bucky shouldn't be alive either

(another story for another time)

[scout1279]

I know I'm behind, but I've just read the collected one more day and brand new day and I've figured out why I hate it.

We've watched Spiderman mature, and now it is all back to the akward teen. I liked seeing the maturation in him; I am just struggling to go back 40 years.

It is a different character, and i'm not sure you can go back.

But Bucky is alive; what do I know?
Peter actually had a lot more going for him at 15 then he apparently does at 25. At 15, he had school, a job, and was a superhero. He was also responsible for helping to financially support Aunt May. He also, whether he had to or not, took on a lot of his friends problems. Essentially, they have regressed the character to even before he became Spider-Man.

It's weird, because in a lot of ways, I prefer teenaged Spider-Man too, but the character they are writing isn't a teenager anymore, and writing him like he is one is just uncomfortable. I'm sticking to the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon for my "real" Spider-Man fix.

Heh. That's exactly what the argument belies: a lack of belief in the validity of the Ultimate and Marvel Adventures brands. Oh, they're OK for the kiddies or the nuveau posers coming in nowadays, but for Real, True Fans, the only Spidey that "counts" is the original. And he has to be single, or it's all out of joint.

The argument really is fallacy heaped upon fallacy.
And I really think that that kind of thinking hurts the industry as a whole. This is why I loved the recap page on the Spider-Man Giant Summer Special, or whatever it was called, because it made fun that whole idea.

[Kevinroc]

and Bucky shouldn't be alive either

(another story for another time)

Bucky being alive works. But that's because of Brubaker's skills as a writer.

(Jason Todd on the other hand...)

[Ian Boothby]

Spider-Man is far and away my favorite comic book character. He got me interested in comics with Spectacular Spider-Man #11. He was my gateway drug.

But I haven't been able to buy an issue since the devil ate his marriage nonsense. So off tone for what Spider-Man is.

[Erik Burnham]

Spider-Man is far and away my favorite comic book character. He got me interested in comics with Spectacular Spider-Man #11. He was my gateway drug.

But I haven't been able to buy an issue since the devil ate his marriage nonsense. So off tone for what Spider-Man is.

I'm afraid I'm with ya (though my jumping in was Marvel Tales reprinting of Spidey Strikes Back)

He's still my favorite.

"But..."

[Wrigley]

Question:

Who buys comic books anymore? What is the age demographic?
I can't buy comics out here; I just buy collections.
I love Ultimate Spider Man; it is a great spin.
Do we need two of them? Because Brand New Day is Ultimate Spiderman; young person with angst has superpowers.
Spiderman had grown to be something much more interesting until this latest retool.

[NickThompson]

My Spider-man is the grown-up, experienced, black-costumed badass we saw in the mid-80's in classics like Spider-Man vs Wolverine and The Death of Jean DeWolff. And yes, my Spider-Man is married. The return of the awkward, wisecracky, immature rookie is nothing more than a midlife crisis in spandex.

Sorry, why is awkward, wisecracky and immature a sign of a midlife crisis? And how can somebody under 30 have a midlife crisis? :smile:

[kitty_tc_69]

Sorry, why is awkward, wisecracky and immature a sign of a midlife crisis? And how can somebody under 30 have a midlife crisis? :smile:

He's under thirty only depending on how you count time. There's an argument to be made that he's in his early thirties by canon reckoning, and of course he's going on 50 in real world years. But that's besides the point. The point is, a formerly mature, married, settled down individual is suddenly (and desperately and forcedly) behaving vastly younger, acting like a "swinging single" and "sowing his wild oats" and all that rot when he's already grown out of that. It's a classic case of midlife crisis behavior, and just because he's a little young for it doesn't mean it's not what it is. Moreover, Peter's actions are not the only considerations to judge by. Just as important are the motivations of the writers and editors who are the real source of this whole thing. They're on record as stating that Peter Parker is "too old" and that the marriage "ages him" and children or divorce would only "age him more" and he needs to go back to the "youthful" phase he was in during what they judge his iconic period. Thus, they seek to turn back the clock and return to his youth out of a fear of aging and maturity, and a restlessness and urge to break out of his settled state. That is the very definition of a midlife crisis in both motivation and action, and just because it's being done vicariously and by proxy doesn't change what it is.

And, typical to midlife crisis behavior, it doesn't work. It feels awkward and forced, and more than a little creepy. Moreover, it's not genuine. It doesn't ring true. In seeking youthfulness to counteract the fear of aging, he and they overreach and overdo it. It's hamhanded and exaggerated, and thus becomes obnoxious. In both the broad strokes and the small details, it's not an accurate or natural youth, it's an older person's idea of youth drawn from memory. It's an imitation, a fake. And it doesn't fool anyone.

This Spidey couldn't be any more midlife crisis if he sported a combover and a new convertible. And the audience knows it. Some of them haven't quite put their finger on why it feels so wrong, but it's there. it's embarassing, and off-putting. Rather than the everyman you want to relate to, he's like the skeevy uncle who suddenly tossed his wife aside to start chasing college girls. The marriage and the maturity Peter had gained cannot be erased from the minds of the audience, and won't be until there's an almost complete audience turnover --something it's far from clear is possible or even desirable in the current market. A complete reboot would have been better than this debacle.

One more time, this fiasco is going to go down in history as one of the great comics clusterfucks of all time.

[NickThompson]

He's under thirty only depending on how you count time. There's an argument to be made that he's in his early thirties by canon reckoning, and of course he's going on 50 in real world years. But that's besides the point. The point is, a formerly mature, married, settled down individual is suddenly (and desperately and forcedly) behaving vastly younger, acting like a "swinging single" and "sowing his wild oats" and all that rot when he's already grown out of that. It's a classic case of midlife crisis behavior, and just because he's a little young for it doesn't mean it's not what it is. Moreover, Peter's actions are not the only considerations to judge by. Just as important are the motivations of the writers and editors who are the real source of this whole thing. They're on record as stating that Peter Parker is "too old" and that the marriage "ages him" and children or divorce would only "age him more" and he needs to go back to the "youthful" phase he was in during what they judge his iconic period. Thus, they seek to turn back the clock and return to his youth out of a fear of aging and maturity, and a restlessness and urge to break out of his settled state. That is the very definition of a midlife crisis in both motivation and action, and just because it's being done vicariously and by proxy doesn't change what it is.

And, typical to midlife crisis behavior, it doesn't work. It feels awkward and forced, and more than a little creepy. Moreover, it's not genuine. It doesn't ring true. In seeking youthfulness to counteract the fear of aging, he and they overreach and overdo it. It's hamhanded and exaggerated, and thus becomes obnoxious. In both the broad strokes and the small details, it's not an accurate or natural youth, it's an older person's idea of youth drawn from memory. It's an imitation, a fake. And it doesn't fool anyone.

This Spidey couldn't be any more midlife crisis if he sported a combover and a new convertible. And the audience knows it. Some of them haven't quite put their finger on why it feels so wrong, but it's there. it's embarassing, and off-putting. Rather than the everyman you want to relate to, he's like the skeevy uncle who suddenly tossed his wife aside to start chasing college girls. The marriage and the maturity Peter had gained cannot be erased from the minds of the audience, and won't be until there's an almost complete audience turnover --something it's far from clear is possible or even desirable in the current market. A complete reboot would have been better than this debacle.

One more time, this fiasco is going to go down in history as one of the great comics clusterfucks of all time.
I'm also mid-twenties, immature, wisecracky and awkward. Going to accuse me of a midlife crisis too? :tongue:

I disagree with your last point strongly. He's not some uncle chasing college girls, he's a single guy in his mid twenties with whom the most likely person for him to have a relationship with at this moment is a person in their mid twenties who is a police forensics person. It's nowhere near the same.

And some people like the fun Spider-Man who makes jokes and stuff.





As for BND itself, I'm torn on it. OMD I was eh on, the marriage didn't overly bother me either way.

Not a fan of the 3/month schedule, I'd rather they had it as three books with one creative team and tone each, but I guess I can see the logic there.

Not a fan of the lack of consistency creator-wise. It was announced with four writers and four artists, since then two of the artists have left, Wells (Who was the best of the four writers IMO) hasn't done a full arc, we've had an almost random selection of artists and two more writers have joined. Not a big fan of that.

The comics I like generally, they've been fun. I don't read the Gale issues, I gave every writer one issue to sell me on their stuff and he was the only one who didn't make the cut.

What bugs me a little is the retro touches. The thought balloons that are there to monologue in a way that is unlike how people actually think. The constant "See issue ___" boxes. I wasn't reading in the 80s, it means nothing to me (oooh Viennaaaaaaaa...) and just feels a bit clunky.


So overall it's a positive IMO, but I still might have to drop it sadly. I need to drop books, do I drop ASM or three seperate books which I like?

[Bo Bo]

I'll start by admitting something:
I don't follow Spider-Man comics, just follow through articles and summaries/reviews online.

From this "outsider" perspective, I kinda agree with kitty_tc. To me it feels like he's very much like Peter is going through a mid-life crisis or something similar to it. This longing of going back to the good old days, when things were "better" and he was more "carefree" (for a lack of a better term). I dunno it just seems wrong to me.

And it isn't because he's now "immature, wisecracky and awkward" (he should always be that). It's that they felt whatever he's gained had to be re-booted.

Again was never a buyer of Spidey comics so this may all be moot. For what it's worth though, if the point of all this was to get new readers, it simply didn't work with me.

[Tetsuo_man]

If you used logic i guess you could say he's going through a midlife crisis but i'd say no it's not logical. He was a mature guy who pretty much always was a bit more mature than other people his own age and yet for no reason except it happening after a deal with mephisto peter ends up coming off like an inept rookie with a moral compass that says being a paporazo is a good thing. Not only are they making him immature they seem to be making him less mature then he ever was.

[kitty_tc_69]

And it isn't because he's now "immature, wisecracky and awkward" (he should always be that).

Actually, for a while he wasn't that at all. During the mid-80's, when he first had the black costume, he was grown up, experienced, mature, and competent. He'd grown out of his immature awkward phase, and found his stride as an experienced hero. It was a natural growth for the character, and reflected the time he'd been around and the things he'd done and seen. During that period, he had some of the very best stories in the history of the character, before or since. Spider-Man vs Wolverine, The Death of Jean DeWolff, Kraven's Last Hunt... extremely good stuff, perfectly fitting for what the character had progressed into. A grown up Spider-Man for grown up readers. And it worked. Gods, it worked. Read those stories sometime, they're some of the best stuff comics has to offer.

They didn't stick to the new, mature Spider-Man then either. They stuck him back in the red and blues and started drawing him like a toothpick with big bug eyes, and that was the end of Spider-Man's run as a legitimate badass. It was amazing while it lasted, though. And some fans never forgot, and never stopped wanting it back.

I for one am still waiting.

[Ian Boothby]

Sorry, why is awkward, wisecracky and immature a sign of a midlife crisis? And how can somebody under 30 have a midlife crisis? :smile:


Depends when you die I guess.

[stillanerd]

I'm also mid-twenties, immature, wisecracky and awkward. Going to accuse me of a midlife crisis too? :tongue:

I disagree with your last point strongly. He's not some uncle chasing college girls, he's a single guy in his mid twenties with whom the most likely person for him to have a relationship with at this moment is a person in their mid twenties who is a police forensics person. It's nowhere near the same.

And some people like the fun Spider-Man who makes jokes and stuff.


It's not that the character of Spider-Man is behaving like he's in a mid-life crisis per-see, it's that, given where the character had been before One More Day/Brand New Day and where he is now, it's at least analogous to a mid-life crisis in terms of what his behavior was before the retcon vs. what's going on in Brand New Day now. Granted, the comic in terms of status quo is closer to what Spider-Man once was, but given that he's supposed to be a 25 year old adult and is being written as though he were still between 16 and 21, it's comes off a little off. Also, I think kitty_tc_69 also has a point when it comes to the creators experiencing a kind of mid-life crisis themselves in that their need to get Spider-Man "back to basics" is really a desire to re-create, re-write--and in some cases outdo--the stories about Spider-Man they remember reading about when they were kids themselves, hence all those "retro" touches you pointed out.

[Charles RB]

That's exactly what the argument belies: a lack of belief in the validity of the Ultimate and Marvel Adventures brands. Oh, they're OK for the kiddies or the nuveau posers coming in nowadays, but for Real, True Fans, the only Spidey that "counts" is the original. And he has to be single, or it's all out of joint.

It's just daft, isn't it? Hell, if those two Spidey titles "don't count", why publish them?

And then there's that other not-in-continuity Spider-title they publish - Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane. The fact that exists sort of says that Spidey/Mary Jane is a pairing that's widely known, accepted and expected. (Ultimate Spidey Annual #3 even says how iconic it is in the solicits) Why even bother, then, ending the marriage and pretending they'll ever be with anyone else in the long-term? Nobody believes it.

On top of which, Spidey was married for 20 years and new readers did, shockingly, turn up during those years. It's illogical to suggest the marriage keeps new readers away.

[MartinRedmond]

I think the tone still isn't kid friendly. Seems like same old same old as usual. What was the point of BND anyway?

[Charles RB]

What was the point of BND anyway?

To undo the marriage & Harry's death and make Spidey like the 70s again.

Well, there's the creative team changes, new status quo, and the thrice-weekly format, but let's face it - they could've done that with the marriage.

[Matt Linton]

I've gone round and round and round and round on this on the Spider-Man board, but I wanted to pop in to say that I'm enjoying Brand New Day far more than I've enjoyed Spider-Man in years. And I say that with Kraven's Last Hunt and The Death of Jean DeWolff being my favorite Spidey books, and I say that with starting Spider-Man when Todd McFarlane came onto Amazing (so, post-marriage).

It's not without it's flaws, but so far it's the first book I read every week it comes out.

[Ian Boothby]

To undo the marriage & Harry's death and make Spidey like the 70s again.

Well, there's the creative team changes, new status quo, and the thrice-weekly format, but let's face it - they could've done that with the marriage.


Harry's death would have been an easy fix. If Norman could come back from a glider through the chest thanks to the healing power of Goblin Juice, then it's really no stretch to think Harry could do the same.

[MartinRedmond]

So have they resurected Gwen too? Probably not, she's not a man!

[Michael P]

Harry's death would have been an easy fix. If Norman could come back from a glider through the chest thanks to the healing power of Goblin Juice, then it's really no stretch to think Harry could do the same.

Except with Harry, the Goblin Juice is what killed him.

[shrike]

Goblin Juice sounds dirty.

[scout1279]

So have they resurected Gwen too? Probably not, she's not a man!

Quesada, JMS, and a couple of other writers who were never named but who probably include Jeph Loeb, wanted to bring her back, but fortunately Quesada got talked out of it.

[MartinRedmond]

Goblin Juice sounds dirty.

I wonder what it tastes like.

[Grazzt]

I wonder what it tastes like.

Pomegranates.

[Cayman]

Quesada, JMS, and a couple of other writers who were never named but who probably include Jeph Loeb, wanted to bring her back, but fortunately Quesada got talked out of it.

I remember reading that Bob Gale was the one who wouldn't jump if Gwen was brought back.

It's kind of funny because he's been the weak link among the four original writers.

[Alan Lynch]

Goblin Juice sounds dirty.
Goblin Juice makes me think of the horrible Sins Past storyline.

God, is it any wonder I gave up on Spider-Man long before Brand New Day?

[scout1279]

I wonder what it tastes like.

Well, if they brought Gwen back, we could ask her.

[scout1279]

I remember reading that Bob Gale was the one who wouldn't jump if Gwen was brought back.

It's kind of funny because he's been the weak link among the four original writers.

I think a lot of people had a problem with it. In his "Spider-Man Manifesto," Tom Breveroot (I will never be able to spell that name) said he didn't know what they would do with her if they brought her back. But when Bob Gale mentioned in an interview that he wouldn't take the job if they brought Gwen back, it was the first confirmation that it was part of the original Brand New Day plan.

However, I remember way back when it was announced that Lob would be writing a Spider-Man comic with J. Scott Campbell, Gwen Stacy was included in the character designs. That was when I first started realizing that Marvel was going to start fucking with Spider-Man continuity.

Part of me wishes they had brought Gwen back, because then we could have finally gotten rid of the specter of Saint Gwen. She couldn't be so saintly if writers were actually use the character, but "The Death of Gwen Stacy" is really one of those stories that should never be touched.

[Cayman]

I think a lot of people had a problem with it. In his "Spider-Man Manifesto," Tom Breveroot (I will never be able to spell that name) said he didn't know what they would do with her if they brought her back. But when Bob Gale mentioned in an interview that he wouldn't take the job if they brought Gwen back, it was the first confirmation that it was part of the original Brand New Day plan.

However, I remember way back when it was announced that Lob would be writing a Spider-Man comic with J. Scott Campbell, Gwen Stacy was included in the character designs. That was when I first started realizing that Marvel was going to start fucking with Spider-Man continuity.

Part of me wishes they had brought Gwen back, because then we could have finally gotten rid of the specter of Saint Gwen. She couldn't be so saintly if writers were actually use the character, but "The Death of Gwen Stacy" is really one of those stories that should never be touched.

I would've liked it if they'd touched more on Peter's HoM memories of his life with Gwen in that reality than they did. As far as I can recall, the only writer who even dealt with it was David Hine in Son Of M.