Final Crisis #3 Spoilers!!!

[Samuraixsithlord]

This issue was really confusing but i'll try.

The Question stops Frankeinsteins monster from killing a bunch of people. Looks like Father Time is looking to create a global police force or something.

We get the pages from the previews

Libra forces a helmat on The Human Flames head that infects him with the anti-life equation, He then forces the rest of the society to join him

Clark is in the hospital with lois. A mysterious figure comes in and tells him that his wife can be saved. But he must leave Earth Right now before it's to late.

Jorden gets taken away to Oa for trial. Wonder woman knows that the evil gods are behind this.

Freddy is feeling down because he feels useless when he's not Captain Marvel. He decides to look for Mary

A bunch of Superheroes get drafted by the government

We cut to Mister Miracle. He and Sunny Sumo get attacked. but are saved by a bunch of reporn new gods.

Mary fights Diana. He's got pink hair and a fuller figure, something that Darksied did to her at the flesh farm. She infects Diana with the anti-life equation. and says that she'll be a carrior to all other superheroes

The Anti-Life equation hits the net.

We cut to a few months later as Barry and Wally stop running. They are then confronted by a group of Female Furies composed of Wonder Woman, Giganta, Catwoman, and Mary Marvel

[ThunderWolf!!!]

There was a bit with the human Monitor too.

[mdg1]

I'm not positive, but I don't think the Japanese heroes that rescue Shilo & Sonny are New Gods reborn.

[dotdotdot]

and frankenstein works for shade. he wasn't about to kill anyone.

[dotdotdot]

basically it was another incredible issue. looking forward to everything that will flesh out what happens during the missing month.

[Samuraixsithlord]

I'm not positive, but I don't think the Japanese heroes that rescue Shilo & Sonny are New Gods reborn.

I reread it and figured that to. But the mysterious figure that told Superman to leave the planet looked to be a New God. She was female, so it could be Barda

and Mary Marvel wasn't one of the furies at the end. It looks like Wonder Woman, Giganta, Catwoman, and Mad Harriot.

[COMIC GEEK]

basically it was another incredible issue. looking forward to everything that will flesh out what happens during the missing month.



did we read the same issue? aside from seeing barry back, which we already knew he was back. and ya knew lois and perry wouldnt die or did you think DC would actually kill them?

I didnt find this issue to be all that great.

for a dc comic book that has CRISIS in it;s title. this book is slow moving, not fulfilling a pretty quick read.

just my opinion

[Slyfer]

Damn so much explained yet I am still confused lol


How is Barry even Alive, how did he cheat death at the Anitmonitors hands ???

So Countdown was useful ???

What was the Question looking for ???

[dotdotdot]

did we read the same issue? aside from seeing barry back, which we already knew he was back. and ya knew lois and perry wouldnt die or did you think DC would actually kill them?

I didnt find this issue to be all that great.

for a dc comic book that has CRISIS in it;s title. this book is slow moving, not fulfilling a pretty quick read.

just my opinion

the idea that you're supposed to buy into lois's death doesn't really come into play with all the tension in this issue. same goes with barry. it's all in the execution.

[Super Buddies Forever]

I don't know. I'm still not feeling this story. There just doesn't seem to be any momentum, or a sense that this is indeed the darkest day the DCU has ever seen. It's a collection of things that floats Grant Morrison's boat, sledgehammered to fit the vague idea of what a DC Crisis should be.

The art is also starting to get on my nerves, as Jones just can't seem to effectively portray movement. Granted, he's an extremely talented artist, but he works best as more of a high-concept exterior guy rather than doing sequential panels of a story. Final Crisis has been a clunky read thus far, and I blame a large part of that on the art (the other being Morrison's dialog, which at times tries to be so poetic it borders on contrived). There were several times in this and the last two issues that I had to reexamine a panel multiple times to understand what was trying to be conveyed.

There are a lot of things to like about Final Crisis, but somehow those individual parts aren't adding up to anything impressive yet.

And no, please don't try to tell me that the only reason I'm not feeling it is because I'm too unintelligent to understand the masterful, Mensa-crafted storytelling. That meme has grown stale.

[Samuraixsithlord]

Damn so much explained yet I am still confused lol


How is Barry even Alive, how did he cheat death at the Anitmonitors hands ???

So Countdown was useful ???

What was the Question looking for ???

Didn't Barry become one with the Speed Force or something? He didn't really die?

I also think that Libra's got something planned. I don't buy him being a servent of Darkseid

[CMBMOOL]

While this issue does pip my curiosity, I think I'll wait for the TPB of this series.:redface:

[mdg1]

I reread it and figured that to. But the mysterious figure that told Superman to leave the planet looked to be a New God. She was female, so it could be Barda.

I'm pretty sure that's one of the Monitors from issue #1 (the one that looked like a Byrne-era Kryptonian, and may actually BE one)

[Samuraixsithlord]

I'm pretty sure that's one of the Monitors from issue #1 (the one that looked like a Byrne-era Kryptonian, and may actually BE one)

Yea the Monitor with the headress. Wasn't she the one that spoke out against that other Moniters banishment or something.

I wonder if Legion of the Three Worlds is the reason why Superman was gone for the three month gap. I guess he's the surprising returninf character in #5.

How many issues are there is Final Crisis?

[dotdotdot]

I don't know. I'm still not feeling this story. There just doesn't seem to be any momentum, or a sense that this is indeed the darkest day the DCU has ever seen. It's a collection of things that floats Grant Morrison's boat, sledgehammered to fit the vague idea of what a DC Crisis should be.



there has been nothing but momentum and panels that hammer home the darkest day. if you dont think the day darkseid and the evil gods beat the new gods as worthy of a crisis, then that's fine. infinite crisis has got nothing on this crisis so far, as much as it had going for it.

edit: and please don't bring up mensa simply because a story is more demanding.

[mdg1]

Yea the Monitor with the headress. Wasn't she the one that spoke out against that other Moniters banishment or something.

I wonder if Legion of the Three Worlds is the reason why Superman was gone for the three month gap. I guess he's the surprising returninf character in #5.

How many issues are there is Final Crisis?

Superman is off to SUPERMAN:BEYOND. And Final Crisis is 7 issues (plus a handful of tie ins, like ROGUES' REVENGE, FC: RESIST & FC:SUBMIT)

I'm pretty sure now that the mystery Furie on the far left is actually the new Batwoman.

[COMIC GEEK]

the idea that you're supposed to buy into lois's death doesn't really come into play with all the tension in this issue. same goes with barry. it's all in the execution.


the execution wasnt even all that, dont get me wrong Im soooooooo glad barry is back.

but cm'on we knew he was gonna be back even before final crisis #1 hit. give us more a of holy f-in crap I cant believe that happened kinda story.

but I guess we'll have to wait for 2009 for flash rebirth

[dotdotdot]

Yea the Monitor with the headress. Wasn't she the one that spoke out against that other Moniters banishment or something.

I wonder if Legion of the Three Worlds is the reason why Superman was gone for the three month gap. I guess he's the surprising returninf character in #5.

How many issues are there is Final Crisis?

irrelevant post

[dotdotdot]

the execution wasnt even all that, dont get me wrong Im soooooooo glad barry is back.

but cm'on we knew he was gonna be back even before final crisis #1 hit. give us more a of holy f-in crap I cant believe that happened kinda story.

but I guess we'll have to wait for 2009 for flash rebirth

see i find that shallow. i prefer the emotional character bits we've seen so far to a more monumental splash page, or whatever your idea of a good return is.

[Infra-Man]

How were the colors int his issue? In the preview, things looked pale and washed out. Is that different in the actual ish?

[dotdotdot]

How were the colors int his issue? In the preview, things looked pale and washed out. Is that different in the actual ish?

not really

[G. Wayne]

I don't know. I'm still not feeling this story. There just doesn't seem to be any momentum, or a sense that this is indeed the darkest day the DCU has ever seen. It's a collection of things that floats Grant Morrison's boat, sledgehammered to fit the vague idea of what a DC Crisis should be.
...
And no, please don't try to tell me that the only reason I'm not feeling it is because I'm too unintelligent to understand the masterful, Mensa-crafted storytelling. That meme has grown stale.

I bid you good luck with your request, you'll need it. Can't comment on the issue, as I won't get it until Saturday.

[UserIDGoesHere]

edit: and please don't bring up mensa simply because a story is more demanding.
I think his point was that FC apologists' standard defense, that those who don't like it don't get it, is tired. Which I agree with. It's not actually proving to be a particularly intellectually demanding story. Some people love it and I respect their opinion, but for me, the parts are, sadly, a lot greater than the sum.

[COMIC GEEK]

see i find that shallow. i prefer the emotional character bits we've seen so far to a more monumental splash page, or whatever your idea of a good return is.

I always prefer interaction amongst characters than seeing a huge brawl.

This comic is suppose to be the big thing of 2008.

So far im really not impressed. sure its only issue #3 but theres only 4 more issues to go.



rogues revenge has been so much better in its first issue than these last 3

[dotdotdot]

I always prefer interaction amongst characters than seeing a huge brawl.

This comic is suppose to be the big thing of 2008.

So far im really not impressed. sure its only issue #3 but theres only 4 more issues to go.



rogues revenge has been so much better in its first issue than these last 3

lol well plenty of us are impressed. i'd go re-read them. rogues revenge 1 was sortof stale even if it was promising, at best. nothing bigger than this has gone on in 08.

also re: mensa, sometimes comic fans aren't very intelligent or aren't men of taste. that has to be accepted, so it isn't exactly a complete cop-out if someone breaks out a retort like "well you aren't getting it maybe you should learn to read better." these entire boards are evidence of the complete inability to decipher the meaning of comic panels and how to guage and/or react to good storytelling. i don't think we have to go to other threads to highlights posts to reveal this.
as sensitive as we should all be towards each other, some opinions are stupid and terrible and invalid. i dunno why that should be a revelation.

[Infra-Man]

not really

Darn. That sucks. Hopefully it doesn't detract from the book when I read it tonight.

[dotdotdot]

It's not actually proving to be a particularly intellectually demanding story.

i can surely agree with this.

[Samuraixsithlord]

I always prefer interaction amongst characters than seeing a huge brawl.

This comic is suppose to be the big thing of 2008.

So far im really not impressed. sure its only issue #3 but theres only 4 more issues to go.




rogues revenge has been so much better in its first issue than these last 3

I think it's way better then Secret Invasion. Darkseid and the new gods are a credible threat.

While Secret Invasion reads like any old skrull storyline that can be solved in like 4-5 issue story arc between MA and NA

[Samuraixsithlord]

Anyone know who the blonde haired chick was who was speaking german and had the Captain Marvel looking costume on?

I assume the heroes who are members of Article X are the heroes who are fighting the lossing battle against Darkseid 3 months later. It had the Outsider and Green Arrow/Black Canary.

You cn also see Bombshell in the back right behind Firestorm and Cyclone, maybe she'll be a new member of the Teen Titans.

[Sean Walsh]

So no one else finds it weird/funny that the Anti-Life Equation was spread across the Earth as an email virus? :wink: :tongue:

How were the colors int his issue? In the preview, things looked pale and washed out. Is that different in the actual ish?

Actually, those particular pages (and the Superman/Lois/Jimmy pages) looked different - as in almost paler colors, and maybe a bit less inking? - than the rest of the book.

[G. Wayne]

I think it's way better then Secret Invasion. Darkseid and the new gods are a credible threat.

While Secret Invasion reads like any old skrull storyline that can be solved in like 4-5 issue story arc between MA and NA

What I find hilarious is that after House of M, Bendis has stated that he learned you should start an event story with a bang, and move on from there, instead of going with a slow build. So now Secret Invasion started with the "bang" and sorta stalled out in the Savage Land after that. Final Crisis, on the other hand, has been the slow build to... well, something.

[Samuraixsithlord]

So no one else finds it weird/funny that the Anti-Life Equation was spread across the Earth as an email virus? :wink: :tongue:


When Mary infected Diana with the Virus, and she turned all Warthog in the face, it made me think of the virus that was in Karate Kid during Countdown, that turned the world into Animal/human hybrids.

Maybe Darkseid got a hold of that strein somehow?

As for Superman Beyond, will it be a mini-series or a one shot?

[mdg1]

So no one else finds it weird/funny that the Anti-Life Equation was spread across the Earth as an email virus? :wink: :tongue:


I was thinking it was more like an Internet Meme. All we need now is a picture of a stern-looking gray cat with the caption "I can haz Anti-Life nao?"

[Samuraixsithlord]

What I find hilarious is that after House of M, Bendis has stated that he learned you should start an event story with a bang, and move on from there, instead of going with a slow build. So now Secret Invasion started with the "bang" and sorta stalled out in the Savage Land after that. Final Crisis, on the other hand, has been the slow build to... well, something.

I like the slow build method. We have the slow build to doom, the 2-3 issues were it seems the bad guy has won, The issue were the true evil plan is revealed, then we get the heroes fighting back to save the day.

[ruppan]

I'm going to try to limit my spoilers, but be warned.

I had a lot of expectations going into this series in general and this issue in particular. I think it's fair to say that DC and Morrison created a lot of hype firstly in naming this as a thematic conclusion to Identity Crisis and Crisis on Infinite Earths and then in various interviews and press releases. In particular, I recall Morrison comparing or analogizing this to Lord of the Rings. While I'm not in awe of Lord of the Rings, the one thing I associate with that story is its huge scope. I also remember Morrison deriding the use of death as a cheap ploy. All of these claims had me pretty excited for the potential of Final Crisis.

With the first two issues, I was pretty underwhelmed. Were they poorly written? Not on their face. On face they were pretty well written, but I did have to question why Morrison had to use 2 issues of 7 to establish the story when DC dedicated an entire 52 issues of Countdown for that exact purpose. Some people may just blame DC editorial, but I there's some responsibility on Morrison to communicate with the writers of Countdown.

Oh, and he killed the Martian Manhunter for shock purpose (No matter how you want to spin it, that was exactly what Morrison was doing.) And, here I thought he wasn't going to do that.

So before issue 3 comes out, I read some more Morrison interviews and I have my expectations set pretty high. After 52 issues of Countdown, a horde of Countdown miniseries and 2 issues of FC, Morrison finally says the ish is going to hit the fan.

So here comes FC 3, and I'm still left wondering...when is this really going to start?

Don't get me wrong, FC 3 is a good read. Some real highlight moments with the Flash and I liked the Libra scene, but...if this is the supposed "oh ****!!" issue then this series isn't worthy of Morrison's comparisons to Lord of the Rings and it isn't a worthy successor to Crisis on Infinite Earths. Both of those stories are huge in scope and FC just seems so small. I feel like Morrison lets us know that there are or could be some big things going on, but he focuses the story on such small elements, like Frankenstein/Question, Sonny Sumo/Norman Shiloh, that the whole story seems small. Which is fine for something like 7 Soldiers, but not for DC's premier cross-over event.

Ughh, and then there's Mary Marvel. That just breaks my heart. They've been messing up Mary Marvel for over a year now just to use her in that one scene. It wasn't worth it. They could have used so many other people for that. Morrison on a kinky whim wants to see WW fight evil Mary so DC just ruins the character. Same goes for Martian Manhunter. I'm really starting to wish this thing were out of continuity.

[ruppan]

Hey could a mod move this thread over to the FC forum? I put it in the wrong forum.

[jv2k]

Welp, this issue finally confirmed that FC takes place on a different earth. Lois' name bracelet said "Louis".

So far I'm liking FC but I feel that the pacing really isn't suited for monthly reading and will come together so much better when read all at once. It doesn't help that the book keeps getting delayed.

[Kevinroc]

I think it's way better then Secret Invasion. Darkseid and the new gods are a credible threat.

While Secret Invasion reads like any old skrull storyline that can be solved in like 4-5 issue story arc between MA and NA

Secret Invasion has its own set of problems but it isn't like the basic idea of Final Crisis is some incredibly original idea. Gods in the bodies of men? We just had that story in Thor (and that wasn't even the first time Thor did that).

The big problem with Final Crisis is it's kinda... just there... Maybe it's because I have been watching Texnholyze lately but I wasn't exactly blown away by FC #3.

(And evil Mary Marvel is still a stupid idea. Morrison couldn't even get that concept to work.)

[COMIC GEEK]

Anyone know who the blonde haired chick was who was speaking german and had the Captain Marvel looking costume on?

I assume the heroes who are members of Article X are the heroes who are fighting the lossing battle against Darkseid 3 months later. It had the Outsider and Green Arrow/Black Canary.

You cn also see Bombshell in the back right behind Firestorm and Cyclone, maybe she'll be a new member of the Teen Titans.


the blonde chick I would think is a kryptonian.-- just a guess

and btw in regards to teen titans.

a member will be killed off soon.

[Samuraixsithlord]

the blonde chick I would think is a kryptonian.-- just a guess

and btw in regards to teen titans.

a member will be killed off soon.

She could be Thunder? The Captain Marvel from the Legion of Superheroes

were did it say a member was going to be killed off? In FC or Teen Titans? Hope it's not Eddie

[DarkCrisis]

This series has offical jumped the shark at "You have to kill the internet!"

[ojjo]

I agree whith a lot ur saying, but think about it:

MM dead, Batman captured (and i'm just thinking some new god is gonna inhabbit him soon).
Both green lanterns of sector earth disabled (one beaten to an inch of his life, other on trial).
Wonder Woman essensially beaten and turnd to the dark side (no pun intended)
Unleashing the anti-life equation on the world trough the www. Every man, woman and child with a internet connection now under darksides control, witch gives him enough fire power to ridd the world of the ones who didn't get affected (if any).

It's a sneaky victory. No one really knows what's happening exept the small 7 soldiers'like guys running around.
I see it as sht has hit the fan, but not in the classic comic event kinda way.

[COMIC GEEK]

were did it say a member was going to be killed off? In FC or Teen Titans? Hope it's not Eddie


it didnt say it anywhere, But I'm telling you its gonna happen soon

I'm thinking teen titans

but back to topic

[drwho]

I'm not reading this, but I thought the fact darkseid had the antilife equation allowed him to create his current power base. So why the hell would he need to send it through emails as a virus. I am not buying this mini.

[ojjo]

She could be Thunder? The Captain Marvel from the Legion of Superheroes

I'm thinking shes a variant of supergirl of the "nazi won" earth. We see the banished monitor draw a "superman" ish in a similar costume in issue 2, plus shes speaking german.

[Paul McEnery]

the blonde chick I would think is a kryptonian.-- just a guess
.

Earth 17, is it? Anyway, the one where the superheroes are Nazis. She's E-17 (?) Supergirl in a Hitler Youth outfit.

Speaking of which, I've got a couple of who's who questions myself:

Who was the mummified gangster?

How come Frankenstein's back with SHADE and Father Time is back to his old self?

[Raker616]

FC continues to underwhelm every issue just leaves me unimpressed and continues DC's streak of failed events. It's getting to a point where people are trying so hard to defend this book that it's become a joke, honestly how can anyone be impressed with such a mediocre event? this can't end soon enough.

[worstblogever]

When Mary infected Diana with the Virus, and she turned all Warthog in the face, it made me think of the virus that was in Karate Kid during Countdown, that turned the world into Animal/human hybrids.

Maybe Darkseid got a hold of that strein somehow?

Note that Morticoccus was also inside the bullet they used to kill Orion. Good catch. And that the virus they used on Wonder Woman had Orion's symbol on it. Did the virus get mutated inside the body of a dead New God, to make it more potent? Just a thought...

This series has offical jumped the shark at "You have to kill the internet!"

Heh. Metacommentary. Totally. They don't care what we think. It's their story.

Guess what no one's mentioned yet?

On the news, they report the ancient civilization that found a cave painting... and it's Metron's symbol. They say there are recent crop-circle formations of the same pattern. Signs of the New Gods being afoot, other than the Barda, Sonny Sumo, and Shilo Norman sightings.

And man... Mary Marvel got one crazy haircut. I approve and all, but it's Lashina meets Mary, to say the least.

[Kevinroc]

And man... Mary Marvel got one crazy haircut. I approve and all, but it's Lashina meets Mary, to say the least.

It reminds me of Robbie Baldwin going from "Speedball" to "Penance" except Ellis handled that better (mostly by pointing out how stupid the whole thing was).

[Samuraixsithlord]

Note that Morticoccus was also inside the bullet they used to kill Orion. Good catch. And that the virus they used on Wonder Woman had Orion's symbol on it. Did the virus get mutated inside the body of a dead New God, to make it more potent? Just a thought...
.

On the news, they report the ancient civilization that found a cave painting... and it's Metron's symbol. They say there are recent crop-circle formations of the same pattern. Signs of the New Gods being afoot, other than the Barda, Sonny Sumo, and Shilo Norman sightings.

And man... Mary Marvel got one crazy haircut. I approve and all, but it's Lashina meets Mary, to say the least.

I thought that was Darkseid's symbol? It was an Omega. Orion's symbol was the one that looked like a sun.

I wasn't really looking at her haircut, i was looking at her figure. Darkseid's body shop really does good work:wink:

I'm glad they're not completely throwing Countdown out the window.

I wonder if they's a mastermind behind Darkseid like it's been rumored?

any one else catch any good New God sightings becides Metron and Mister Miracle? I wonder what Barda looks like?

[Kelson]

So no one else finds it weird/funny that the Anti-Life Equation was spread across the Earth as an email virus? :wink: :tongue:


I found myself wondering how many copies ended up in spam folders...

As for Superman Beyond, will it be a mini-series or a one shot?

IIRC it was going to be a one-shot, but ran long, and will be a 2-parter.

Earth 17, is it? Anyway, the one where the superheroes are Nazis. She's E-17 (?) Supergirl in a Hitler Youth outfit.

The universe where the Nazis won WW2 was Earth-10.

I think Earth-17 (in the 52 multiverse, anyway) was originally supposed to be Kamandi and the Atomic Knights, before Countdown set that up in Earth-51.

[worstblogever]

I thought that was Darkseid's symbol? It was an Omega. Orion's symbol was the one that looked like a sun.

I wasn't really looking at her haircut, i was looking at her figure. Darkseid's body shop really does good work:wink:

I'm glad they're not completely throwing Countdown out the window.

I wonder if they's a mastermind behind Darkseid like it's been rumored?

You're right, that is Darkseid.

Although, I took the mystery German girl's dialogue to a translator, near as I could get, she says this:

"Ich... ich... ich bin... (u?)berfraulein... urr... nein. Ist der... der himmel blutungen. die h^lle... ist... ist... hier"

Near as I can peg it?

"I... I... I am supergirl. urr... no... it's the... the internal bleeding of god. the light... is... is... here."

Sounds like something Supergirl might say at the end of the world, right?

[Samuraixsithlord]

You're right, that is Darkseid.

Although, I took the mystery German girl's dialogue to a translator, near as I could get, she says this:

"Ich... ich... ich bin... (u?)berfraulein... urr... nein. Ist der... der himmel blutungen. die h^lle... ist... ist... hier"

Near as I can peg it?

"I... I... I am supergirl. urr... no... it's the... the internal bleeding of god. the light... is... is... here."

Sounds like something Supergirl might say at the end of the world, right?

hmmmm. She could be talking about Lightray? Isn't his Fifth World incarnation supposed to be a being consisting entirely of light?

[DarKye]

"the internal bleeding of god. "

I got "the skies bleeding" from Yahoo! Babel Fish.. I figured she's an alternate Earth Supergirl.


And this issue was pretty amazing. Wouldn't recommend Mary Marvel's apokoliptian hair stylist though.

[Samuraixsithlord]

I got "the skies bleeding" from Yahoo! Babel Fish.. I figured she's an alternate Earth Supergirl.


Maybe Darkseid is tearing down the dimensions so he can conquer all the other earths?

[Karl O'Neill]

Good to see Barry allen again!

[worstblogever]

Good to see Barry allen again!

Hear, hear.

I got "the skies bleeding" from Yahoo! Babel Fish.. I figured she's an alternate Earth Supergirl.


And this issue was pretty amazing. Wouldn't recommend Mary Marvel's apokoliptian hair stylist though.

Interesting... you don't suppose she might be referring to "The Bleed" though, do you?

[Superboy-Prime]

there has been nothing but momentum and panels that hammer home the darkest day. if you dont think the day darkseid and the evil gods beat the new gods as worthy of a crisis, then that's fine. infinite crisis has got nothing on this crisis so far, as much as it had going for it.

edit: and please don't bring up mensa simply because a story is more demanding.


Honestly I think if there were superheroes puinching each other, people would be calling it the best thing since sliced bread.


This issue was pretty damn awesome and the momentum had already kicked in. with the mad hatter getting the shit beat out of him and Batman being KIdnapped and being held captive. and now we wonder woman being infected with the ant-life equation....or something else entirely. barry and Wally ending up in the future after everyone has been taken over by the equation is an awesome premise for Morrison to throw in. This is a wehll though out event. That alot of people are taking for granted.

I haven't found one issue to be confusing at all. Didn't read countdown nor death of the new gods, yet I still understood what was happening. sometimes you just gotta go with the flow.

[Karl O'Neill]

how cool are those super young team guys? Grant morrison is the man, i love the concepts and characters he creates.

[xnef1025]

Ya know, at this point, both companies' big events are letting me down. Secret Invasion is super decompressed. The entire thing is taking place within 1 day and we're seeing 60 angles of 1 fight.

FC is the opposite. There are a lot of threads, and a lot happening, but there's no transitional panels between them. We're just being thrown from one situation to the next.

I'm enjoying both, but it would be nice for the next events to find a middle ground pacing-wise.

[COMIC GEEK]

52
countdown
final crisis

at least dc made final crisis a hell of alot shorter.

now completists can save money

[Karl O'Neill]

Ya know, at this point, both companies' big events are letting me down. Secret Invasion is super decompressed. The entire thing is taking place within 1 day and we're seeing 60 angles of 1 fight.

FC is the opposite. There are a lot of threads, and a lot happening, but there's no transitional panels between them. We're just being thrown from one situation to the next.

I'm enjoying both, but it would be nice for the next events to find a middle ground pacing-wise.

I actually dropped secret invasion after issue 2. and yet have not being tempted to drop final crisis yet, i think morrison is writing a much more layered story than what bendis is doing in secret invasion.

and at that i think all the final crisis spin off's sound awesome, Rogues Reveneg, superman beyond and Legion of 3 worlds are my most anticipated mini's this year!:cool:

[Superboy-Prime]

FC continues to underwhelm every issue just leaves me unimpressed and continues DC's streak of failed events. It's getting to a point where people are trying so hard to defend this book that it's become a joke, honestly how can anyone be impressed with such a mediocre event? this can't end soon enough.

alot of people can say the same about secret invasion,which hasn't left anything to the imagination at all. yet you'll find the same apologist defending the book because it sells better, means its good sthick., when its really not.

[HaroldAllnut]

Didn't Barry become one with the Speed Force or something? He didn't really die?

Technically, Barry might not have died; though we did see him age/disintegrate, I'm sure Morrison could just as easily say that his body was transmuting from one state of being to another in a higher dimension of existence, or something akin to that. I wouldn't be surprised.

[Red_Knight]

A slight but important correction from a native German:


"Ich... ich... ich bin... (u?)berfraulein... urr... nein. Ist der... der himmel blutungen. die h^lle... ist... ist... hier"


If that's what she says, it translates to:

"I... I... I am... Supergirl... Urr... No. The... the sky is bleeding. Hell (German: "Hoelle")... is... is... here."

"Blutungen" should translate to "internal bleeding", actually, but given the context of the scene, that wouldn't make much sense. So I assume it's just a mistake.

[SpaceBooger]

When Mary infected Diana with the Virus, and she turned all Warthog in the face, it made me think of the virus that was in Karate Kid during Countdown, that turned the world into Animal/human hybrids.


That and the fact that the evil super-heroes in the future were riding on dogs made me think of this image from countdown:
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/1737/cd5hz2.jpg

[Paul McEnery]

And man... Mary Marvel got one crazy haircut. I approve and all, but it's Lashina meets Mary, to say the least.

Ever wonder how Mary knows the new gods are living in human beings?

[worstblogever]

A slight but important correction from a native German:



If that's what she says, it translates to:

"I... I... I am... Supergirl... Urr... No. The... the sky is bleeding. Hell (German: "Hoelle")... is... is... here."

"Blutungen" should translate to "internal bleeding", actually, but given the context of the scene, that wouldn't make much sense. So I assume it's just a mistake.

Thank you. That does make more sense.

[mdg1]

Who was the mummified gangster?

That was Boss Dark Side (look at the tiepin). Darkseid doesn't need him anymore, since he's in Turpin now.

[Gutter Runner]

The insane Mary Marvel haircut/shavejob is hilariously reminiscent of Brintey Spears.

[IvCNuB4]

and Mary Marvel wasn't one of the furies at the end. It looks like Wonder Woman, Giganta, Catwoman, and Mad Harriot.

I see Batwoman, WW, Catwoman and Elasti-Girl. Looks more like Rita's 2-tone outfit to me. Anyone else think that WW is riding Krypto ? Didn't Morrison say he was going to use the Super-Pets in this ? Hmmm ...


A slight but important correction from a native German:

If that's what she says, it translates to:

"I... I... I am... Supergirl... Urr... No. The... the sky is bleeding. Hell (German: "Hoelle")... is... is... here."

"Blutungen" should translate to "internal bleeding", actually, but given the context of the scene, that wouldn't make much sense. So I assume it's just a mistake.

She's saying that "the sky is hemorraging .. hell is here"

[spidervenom]

Ever wonder how Mary knows the new gods are living in human beings?

Because Darkseid and the gang catched here? or maybe all the marvel's have a relationship of having a super being consciousness inside them and so they have a perception of seeing not just the physical body but the inner body as well? Also, did anyone notice the source hand mouse icon? I found that pretty cool.

[Paul McEnery]

That was Boss Dark Side (look at the tiepin). Darkseid doesn't need him anymore, since he's in Turpin now.

Oh duh. I feel like a fool now.

[dotdotdot]

Did anyone notice the source hand mouse icon? I found that pretty cool.

seriously, the darkside club anti-source wall script. how awesome. and supergirl/woman from the nazi earth falling all the way across the multiverse.....and the exiled monitor sensing the shifts........such a great issue holy damn.

[Corrina]

I was thinking it was more like an Internet Meme. All we need now is a picture of a stern-looking gray cat with the caption "I can haz Anti-Life nao?"

If this is in the book, then I will buy it.

Because once you get to uploading an internet meme to end all life, you've entered "Middleman" territory and you might just as well go for it.

[ruppan]

All of those facts that you mention seem important, but they haven't really been at the center of this story which is the problem with FC. In a lot of ways, this doesn't feel like a DC story, but more like a Seven Soldiers story except Morrison has carte blanche to mess with everyone. That annoys me. It annoys me that fate of these characters on the biggest stage that DC could provide is being decided by a bunch of oddballs that struck Morrison's fancy.

[Adam C]

If this is in the book, then I will buy it.

Because once you get to uploading an internet meme to end all life, you've entered "Middleman" territory and you might just as well go for it.

Honestly I'm wondering what the big problem is with Darkseid using the internet to spread the anti-life equation. By what other means should it have been done?

[Corrina]

Why does an anti-life equation need the internet?

[Paul McEnery]

Why does an anti-life equation need the internet?

Got to get it into people's heads somehow!

[DarKye]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/darkye/Captions/antilifecat.jpg

Because we all know Comic Sans is the font of Evil.

[Adam C]

Why does an anti-life equation need the internet?

Needs to be communicated through some sort of medium?

[Samuraixsithlord]

Why does an anti-life equation need the internet?

Because just about every human being in the world has access to the internet

[Jake V]

Why does an anti-life equation need the internet?

Because it's far-reaching and nearly instantaneous.

[Red_Knight]

She's saying that "the sky is hemorraging .. hell is here"

Basically, yeah. "Blutungen" is a noun, though, as in "He has internal bleeding". So it doesn't work in the context of the sentence and is probably an honest mistake made by the translator.

On a sidenote, "Himmel" means BOTH "sky" and "heaven" in German, so there's a definite double meaning going on there, even if by default.

[ultramandingo]

......... man , tawky tawny , detective chimp , frankenstein , atomic knights and the legion of doom hq ! whatever morrisons drinking he must be using a crazy straw

[Tom]

Why does an anti-life equation need the internet?

Are there rules to how an anti-life equation is supposed to work? I'm not trying to be a smartass, but I'm with Adam. I have no idea why the idea is being met with so much eye-rolling.

[harveylockman]

I hope that's not Krypto. Ever since I'd heard he would use the Super-Pets, I imagine/fantasize that they would be instrumental in helping the heroes to defeat Darkseid.
Krypto, Streaky, Ace, Comet, Hoppy, Tawky, even Captain Carrot....led by Animal Man!

[Adam C]

[
I hope that's not Krypto. Ever since I'd heard he would use the Super-Pets, I imagine/fantasize that they would be instrumental in helping the heroes to defeat Darkseid.
Krypto, Streaky, Ace, Comet, Hoppy, Tawky, even Captain Carrot....led by Animal Man!

Man, that chillingly sounds like something Morrison would do.

[harveylockman]

In the commentary from Final Crisis #1 Director's Cut, Grant mentions that the design that Anthro draws on his face (which is also on Metron's mask) is an important defense against Darkseid.

[berk]

That was Boss Dark Side (look at the tiepin). Darkseid doesn't need him anymore, since he's in Turpin now.Plus, from what Darkseid said in #1 or 2, the God-possessed body gets worn out pretty quickly, which I imagine doesn't bode well for Turpin.

[Samuraixsithlord]

Plus, from what Darkseid said in #1 or 2, the God-possessed body gets worn out pretty quickly, which I imagine doesn't bode well for Turpin.

kinda like Proteus and his bodies.

man i cannot wait fro Final Crisis #4, anyone knoe the release date?

[berk]

the first google result was something called Westfield comics, which gives 17Sept2008 as the release date for FC#4. Don't know how reliable that is.

I just had a quick look at Seven Soldiers #1 and the last I see of Frankenstein is Witchboy taking control of him and getting him to turn the ship around & take him to 'Sheedaland', where he presumably takes over. Has he appeared or been referred to since then anywhere?

[Paul McEnery]

I hope that's not Krypto. Ever since I'd heard he would use the Super-Pets, I imagine/fantasize that they would be instrumental in helping the heroes to defeat Darkseid.
Krypto, Streaky, Ace, Comet, Hoppy, Tawky, even Captain Carrot....led by Animal Man!

I'm sure there's a reason Animal Man got re-edumacated in space.

Anyone want to bet he learns how to absorb the powers of a living universe?

[jv2k]

So no one has anything to say about the fact that Lois' hospital bracelet said Louis?

[Samuraixsithlord]

So no one has anything to say about the fact that Lois' hospital bracelet said Louis?

maybe because it was a typo? it happens every once in awhile.

[skally19]

I reread it and figured that to. But the mysterious figure that told Superman to leave the planet looked to be a New God. She was female, so it could be Barda.

she's a monitor you see in ish #1

Welp, this issue finally confirmed that FC takes place on a different earth. Lois' name bracelet said "Louis".

except when the planet was blown up, supes shouted "lois!"

Darn. That sucks. Hopefully it doesn't detract from the book when I read it tonight.

it looks the same as the other issues.

[SuperSince92]

THIS was the big finish that we are expected to wait a skip month for another issue? I can barely understand what the hell is happening. IC was much better with the build up AND execution (so far).

[Bruce Wayne Jr.]

I'm finding it hard to get involved. This reads like a bunch of big ideas thrown together, with not enough drama inbetween to keep me interested.

If any comic needs decompression (and i hate decompression), it's this one.

[dotdotdot]

So no one has anything to say about the fact that Lois' hospital bracelet said Louis?

superman was saying her name though, and it was spelled correctly. so while i can't explain it, i'm not sure what, if anything, it could indicate

[dotdotdot]

THIS was the big finish that we are expected to wait a skip month for another issue? I can barely understand what the hell is happening. IC was much better with the build up AND execution (so far).

what don't you understand

[Samuraixsithlord]

I wonder how does Legion of the Three Worlds fits into all this?

and Rage of the Red Lanterns.

I'm actually looking forward to those two storyline then Final Crisis. I still like FC though

[dotdotdot]

I wonder how does Legion of the Three Worlds fits into all this?

and Rage of the Red Lanterns.

I'm actually looking forward to those two storyline then Final Crisis. I still like FC though

i'm going to go in to those mini's assuming that they aren't going to fit into the rest of this much. just barely. though i expect both of them to be quite good.

[Adam C]

So no one has anything to say about the fact that Lois' hospital bracelet said Louis?

Honestly it doesn't look like much more than a minor mistake (or a snickering in-joke on the part of the artists). There's really not much to say about it.

[Infra-Man]

Anti-life equation on the internet? These tubes are clogged with evil!

Solid read, this issue. It's building up to a big conclusion, and I hope it doesn't disappoint.

[josh straightedge]

This might be the last issue for me. I didn't enjoy much of this. Frankly, I found this month's issue just boring. I still like all the Libra stuff, they should throw him a few more pages. I found the entire WW/Mary Marvel fight to be dumb too. Just not enough gun. Maybe I'll finish this when I dig the issues out of a quarter bin at the local shop.

[dotdotdot]

This might be the last issue for me. I didn't enjoy much of this. Frankly, I found this month's issue just boring. I still like all the Libra stuff, they should throw him a few more pages. I found the entire WW/Mary Marvel fight to be dumb too. Just not enough gun. Maybe I'll finish this when I dig the issues out of a quarter bin at the local shop.

what's this about gun?
fun?

i couldnt' be more excited at frankenstein and shades involvement, at the super young team's entry into things, at the evil factory's manipulation of flesh, at superman managing to get extracted before anti-life got to him (i guess in beyond he'll be racing against darkseid's progress and extracting the other superman from other earths in the nick of time as well, though nazi superman's earth seems to have already succumbed), and at the continuation of the slow building motifs of the metron sigil, the exiled monitor's awakening.....

i could type much more. i can't believe that so much has already been covered in three issues. the idea that the question, the flashes (or a couple of them), a couple of exiled monitors, and what......maybe supergirl, frankenstein, anthro, hell i dunno who else is left, are all that stands in the way of an anti-life planet and the triumphant evil gods.......just an incredible epic plan for a story and i'm glad we're lucky enough that it's been thrown into DCU proper. and i can't wait to see what happens if/when the host of supermen get back to earth (though maybe their final stand happens elsewhere, like the monitors' home outside of the multiverse.

[Trey]

FC is a very dark and metaphysical story. The art here was better than the preview, same as the other issues.

Wonder Woman has never been more beautifully drawn. just gorgeous.

So much happens. What happens when you read the anti-life equation?

Props to Alex Sinclair on the coloring, so slick.

[Samuraixsithlord]

i'm going to go in to those mini's assuming that they aren't going to fit into the rest of this much. just barely. though i expect both of them to be quite good.

I still think Superman will get taken to the future at the end of Superman Beyond. Time travel is weird he can fight the LoSV and save the future. then be back just moments after he left

Rage of the Red Lanterns should describe Jorden's trial and how the Oans are handleing things.

Darkseid should be going out of his mind wondering were Superman is. The one enemy who has handed him so many defeats.

[skally19]

This might be the last issue for me. I didn't enjoy much of this. Frankly, I found this month's issue just boring. I still like all the Libra stuff, they should throw him a few more pages. I found the entire WW/Mary Marvel fight to be dumb too. Just not enough gun. Maybe I'll finish this when I dig the issues out of a quarter bin at the local shop.

your point was better taken before your thoughts that'll be in the quarter bin. crap joke.

[smoothjokes]

I reread it and figured that to. But the mysterious figure that told Superman to leave the planet looked to be a New God. She was female, so it could be Barda

and Mary Marvel wasn't one of the furies at the end. It looks like Wonder Woman, Giganta, Catwoman, and Mad Harriot.

That's the human-Monitor's girlfriend, another Monitor. It's for Superman Beyond when he encounters his counter-parts in the multiverse. Anyways, I loved this issue, it was the best one so far. Morrison hit everything on point. I'm really excited for issue 4 which doesn't come out for a bit but that doesn't matter to me. I really can't wait for Superman Beyond! Can anyone tell me what Nazi-Supergirl/Power-Girl was saying to the Question when S.H.A.D.E. told the Question to come with them?

[vickvega]

Nobody mentioned the Crime Bible. Its gonna be Montoya versus Crispus. I liked the issue after about 3 reads and the German lesson. Most of these details go over my head. Im sticking with it, as you should. Wonder Woman is cool now.:eek: :eek:

[smoothjokes]

Damn so much explained yet I am still confused lol


How is Barry even Alive, how did he cheat death at the Anitmonitors hands ???

A bullet was shot back-in-time for Barry Allen so the Black Racer could go after him. They're trying to turn Barry Allen into an Anti-Life zombie too. The apocalyptic DCU ruled by Darkseid is looking scarier. I can't wait for #4 and Mary Marvel's new-look was BAD-ASS, son!

[Samuraixsithlord]

That's the human-Monitor's girlfriend, another Monitor. It's for Superman Beyond when he encounters his counter-parts in the multiverse. Anyways, I loved this issue, it was the best one so far. Morrison hit everything on point. I'm really excited for issue 4 which doesn't come out for a bit but that doesn't matter to me. I really can't wait for Superman Beyond! Can anyone tell me what Nazi-Supergirl/Power-Girl was saying to the Question when S.H.A.D.E. told the Question to come with them?

She said something about Gods light and passing through the Bleed

[dotdotdot]

She said something about Gods light and passing through the Bleed

no, no one else has interpreted it that way.

edit: it seems straightforward: i'm superwoman, the skies are bleeding/hemoraging, hell is here
something to that effect right? that's already been stated in this thread a couple of times i thought

[Samuraixsithlord]

A bullet was shot back-in-time for Barry Allen so the Black Racer could go after him. They're trying to turn Barry Allen into an Anti-Life zombie too. The apocalyptic DCU ruled by Darkseid is looking scarier. I can't wait for #4 and Mary Marvel's new-look was fuckin' BAD-ASS, son!

Black Racer shouldn't be an evil god. He's neutral, good and evil mean nothing to him, only death. He's the one god that even Darkseid should fear, because his appearance means somrone is going to die.

[Samuraixsithlord]

Nobody mentioned the Crime Bible. Its gonna be Montoya versus Crispus. I liked the issue after about 3 reads and the German lesson. Most of these details go over my head. Im sticking with it, as you should. Wonder Woman is cool now.:eek: :eek:

Wonder how Darkseid keeps the Spectre from interfering?

[dotdotdot]

Black Racer shouldn't be an evil god. He's neutral, good and evil mean nothing to him, only death. He's the one god that even Darkseid should fear, because his appearance means somrone is going to die.

right. that's pretty much the way he's presented here i guess.

[skally19]

hey where is Lois' name spelled Louis?? on the door of her room it says "Lane, Lois".

[dotdotdot]

She said something about Gods light and passing through the Bleed

actually you're probably right in that the use of a bleeding image has to do with the "skies" the areas between earths/universes in some sort of physical pain, which is a sweet metaphor and a great use of the idea of a "bleed".

[dotdotdot]

hey where is Lois' name spelled Louis?? on the door of her room it says "Lane, Lois".

it's on the bracelet they put on her........and it seems like a dumb mistake in that none of the possible reasons for it to be intentional make an iota of sense. it's hard to believe such a dumb thing happened accidently as well though.

[Spiffy]

I've laid out my reasons for hating this extensively in the thread in YABS about this issue.

In a nutshell though? Its because its ignoring the very basic rules that "its the journey, not the destination".

Good storytelling, to me, is about conflict. FC3 has cut out the conflicts we really needed to see. FC's defenders keep saying its about moral decay. But I didn't see any moral decay, instead it was "poof, now you're evil". Which to me, took all the fun out of it.

We needed to see ups and downs, gains and losses, triumph and tragedy. Instead, we're shuttled along to a state where its going to be about the big miracle save/reboot to undo all of this. With apparently lots of Wonder Woman looking like Hannibal Lecter in the middle.

[smoothjokes]

FC continues to underwhelm every issue just leaves me unimpressed and continues DC's streak of failed events. It's getting to a point where people are trying so hard to defend this book that it's become a joke, honestly how can anyone be impressed with such a mediocre event? this can't end soon enough.

Because we understand it and follow Grant Morrison's work. This is basically the conclusion to the Morrison-verse just like All-Star Superman is apart of the Morrison-verse. This definitely is for the Morrison-fanboy not the regular comic fan that reads 50 books in one month.

[dotdotdot]

I've laid out my reasons for hating this extensively in the thread in YABS about this issue.

In a nutshell though? Its because its ignoring the very basic rules that "its the journey, not the destination".

Good storytelling, to me, is about conflict. FC3 has cut out the conflicts we really needed to see. FC's defenders keep saying its about moral decay. But I didn't see any moral decay, instead it was "poof, now you're evil". Which to me, took all the fun out of it.

We needed to see ups and downs, gains and losses, triumph and tragedy. Instead, we're shuttled along to a state where its going to be about the big miracle save/reboot to undo all of this. With apparently lots of Wonder Woman looking like Hannibal Lecter in the middle.

these issues are all about journey what are you talking about. there was a scene this issue with a family sitting around on couches reacting to barry's return. you don't get more gain and loss, triumph and tragedy than that.

[smoothjokes]

In the commentary from Final Crisis #1 Director's Cut, Grant mentions that the design that Anthro draws on his face (which is also on Metron's mask) is an important defense against Darkseid.

I just got it because Libra talks about renouncing science to Lex Luthor. Metron is the God of Science and the last defense against Darkseid's army. #5's previews talks about the return of a character, my bet is Metron returns to save the planet.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

To try to block off the elitism that has been showing up quite a bit in this thread by those defending FC.

Spiffy, you are right; the conflict is part of the most engaging parts of any story...

However, have you considered that maybe that isn't what this part of FC is about?


What I'm interpreting is this: the heroes, the mainstream DCU heroes, aren't supposed to have a chance in heck. No epic struggle, no resistance, no glory, no honor, and no panels of it either. A beatdown equivalent of a well-planned Ocean's 11-esque bank robbery.

Think Ultimates 2 - Grand Theft America, when the Liberators with Loki not only annihilated the Ultimates, but took over the United States in the course of a day. Or the phrase from Fist of the North Star "you're already dead".

If FC turns out to be an epic battle of good and evil, it's not supposed to happen now. Now, I'm not saying that you have to like it, but at least judge it for what it is, not what you had hoped it to be.

[Samuraixsithlord]

I just got it because Libra talks about renouncing science to Lex Luthor. Metron is the God of Science and the last defense against Darkseid's army. #5's previews talks about the return of a character, my bet is Metron returns to save the planet.

I have my bets placed on it being Superman. Either him or Orion.

[dotdotdot]

To try to block off the elitism that has been showing up quite a bit in this thread by those defending FC.

Spiffy, you are right; the conflict is part of the most engaging parts of any story...

However, have you considered that maybe that isn't what this part of FC is about?


What I'm interpreting is this: the heroes, the mainstream DCU heroes, aren't supposed to have a chance in heck. No epic struggle, no resistance, no glory, no honor, and no panels of it either. A beatdown equivalent of a well-planned Ocean's 11-esque bank robbery.

Think Ultimates 2 - Grand Theft America, when the Liberators with Loki not only annihilated the Ultimates, but took over the United States in the course of a day. Or the phrase from Fist of the North Star "you're already dead".

If FC turns out to be an epic battle of good and evil, it's not supposed to happen now. Now, I'm not saying that you have to like it, but at least judge it for what it is, not what you had hoped it to be.

but we're the elite what's to hide?
elitism is sexy.

[Samuraixsithlord]

What I'm interpreting is this: the heroes, the mainstream DCU heroes, aren't supposed to have a chance in heck. No epic struggle, no resistance, no glory, no honor, and no panels of it either. A beatdown equivalent of a well-planned Ocean's 11-esque bank robbery.

Think Ultimates 2 - Grand Theft America, when the Liberators with Loki not only annihilated the Ultimates, but took over the United States in the course of a day. Or the phrase from Fist of the North Star "you're already dead".

If FC turns out to be an epic battle of good and evil, it's not supposed to happen now. Now, I'm not saying that you have to like it, but at least judge it for what it is, not what you had hoped it to be.

I like what you're saying. Darkseid has basically won. But in his arrogence he thinks no one can challenge him. So he's not really focussed on making sure all his enemies are dead/defeated/enslaved, but furthering his own empire.

and thats when the heroes rally and put a stop to his plans.

I hope the Dark Gods beatdown is as cool as the one the Liberators got in Ultimates.

[Faustic Caust]

Regarding the bracelet: I don't mean to give them a way out if they really screwed up, but my sincere first thought on seeing it in the panel was that she was wearing a Louis Vuitton bracelet, like this (http://cgi.ebay.com/Elegant-Bracelet-Handmade-with-Louis-Vuitton-Ribbon_W0QQitemZ180272624787QQihZ008QQcategoryZ927 27QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) or this (http://www.madisonmag.com.au/louis_vuitton_bangle.htm), meant to imply what a fashionable, cosmopolitan reporter Lois Lane is, just like the Porsche she was driving in All-Star Superman #2. [The real flub is why said bracelet and her wedding ring weren't removed by the hospital staff ...]

I think a lot of the discontent stems from the fact that Final Crisis is indeed third in a trilogy, but one consisting of Jack Kirby's Fourth World and Seven Soldiers. I love Final Crisis, but I wouldn't recommend it to any of my friends without priming them on that material first.

[Buried Alien]

At the moment, it seems like the hopes of the Multiverse lie with two Flashes: Barry Allen and Wally West.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Jack Zodiac]

Earth 17, is it? Anyway, the one where the superheroes are Nazis. She's E-17 (?) Supergirl in a Hitler Youth outfit.

I think, more importantly than what Earth they fit on in this new multiverse, what does this mean about Morrison's Overman and self-realization? Obviously this has something to do with the Monitors, the multiverse, and the orrery.

Speaking of which, I've got a couple of who's who questions myself:

Who was the mummified gangster?

How come Frankenstein's back with SHADE and Father Time is back to his old self?

The gangster is Darkseid's old body. As for Frankenstein and Father Time, I don't know, but man am I !@#$ing glad! Now they just have to bring back The Bride and we'll have a suitable potential team book again!

[berk]

I think it's been pretty clearly hinted that Metron's the key to the resistance. Morrison even more or less came right out and said so I think in one interview.

But I think all the New Gods will be revived - that's Mister Miracle's purpose, as shown in Seven Soldiers when Metron says to Shilo in #1,

"The choice is simple. Free the Bright Ones or be slaves to the Dark. Live and join us. Or die for Darkseid."

(which nicely echoes Kirby's New Gods #1, BTW, where Highfather says to Orion: "The Universe - slave or free - on Apokolips their ruler, Darkseid, has already made that choice! What shall ours be, Orion?")

And this idea is glanced at in a crude way in FC#3 when the Green Lantern guy with the cape says how they've always had the help of the New Genesis technology and warriors when they've had to fight Darkseid in the past. I think Morrison actually needs to work a little harder to gte this point across, myself, because there's about 25 years worth of misconceptions to clear up there, as seen by the reactions of readers who still think Superman is Darkseid's "greatest enemy" etc, etc.

[Binker]

By Nathaniel Ruff (also known as Binker, Binker2 and Nate on many forums)

FINAL CRISIS #3

Written by Grant Morrison
Art and covers by J.G. Jones
Edited by Eddie Berganza

PLOT:
Batman missing in action! Superman immobilized! Green Lantern on trial for his life! A shadow is falling across Earth's super heroes — and now it's Wonder Woman's turn to face the Evil Gods! What bizarre warning from beyond awaits Frankenstein, The Question and the agents of S.H.A.D.E. in the shadows of the Dark Side Club? What grim fate lies in store for The Human Flame? What happens when the Anti-Life Equation hits the internet? Can the Fastest Men Alive outrun The Black Racer — Death himself? And who are the Justifiers?

REVIEW:
How the second issue of Final Crisis turned out, it may me say that if I heard people say that issue #2 was either bad/worse, or what not, than issue #1, I would've been very mad. It's because the second issue literally kicked things up into high gear, and it was damn close to how I felt from part 2 of "Batman R.I.P.". Morrison gave us new characters, new concepts, alot of shocking moments with more to come. Barry Allen was back, Batman was in hell, Hal was arrested, Superman arrived too late, and we got a connection to the Multiverse. Alot of things happened, now with issue #3 promising something that will be a reason why the series is getting a month break, I want to know what it is, and if it'll hold up. Here is issue #3!

Issue #3 now kicks things off into full high gear as alot of things happen, most of them really bad, and what was promised now has happened: evil has won! Where to start is hard, so might as well go by from the beginning to the end. It must be a dead on answer, but in the last issue where our mysterious man from the Multiverse might've been from the Red Son universe might be the case as we now get a woman with a Soviet Union inspired S-shield speaking Russian. And if I didn't know any better, I'd say that's the Red Son Supergirl. You can't get anymore than that. Frankenstein appears finally, unless I just didn't see him in the last issue. Everyone in the Flash family, and I'm not so sure about the rest of the DCU, now know that Barry Allen has returned. Iris might be taking it a bit hard over the news, but Jay swears it is really him, no one else. The old Legion of Doom's Hall of Doom, a classic setting from the "Superfriends", makes an appearance here, and Libra has threatened Luthor and the Society into joining Darkseid, or suffer the Anti-Life Equation's effects, which will....well. Lois isn't dead, but wounded, and Superman is taking it hard for not saving her in time. But this mysterious woman offers help, which must be setting up the Superman Beyond one-shot. The woman looks familiar, but I can't recall her name. That helmet is a clue.

I noticed the first paragraph was getting long, so might as well a second one. As a way of telling us this is still canon, Queen Hippolyta was Wonder Woman back in World War II. She doesn't appear here, but what Alan Scott talks about is a reference to a classic team back in the DCU's WWII days: the All-Star Squadron, and most specific was something called "Article X", a draft for superheroes. I have no idea is this is something actually from DC Comics' past, but it is a good story point. Those among who are drafted happen to be: Hawkgirl, Power Girl, Donna Troy, Huntress, Commander Steel, Stargirl, Robin, Nightwing, Shazam, Hawkman, Atom, Damage, Green Arrow, Black Canary, the Golden Age Flash, Wonder Girl, Batgirl, Firestorm, and finally, the return of Aquaman! Plus, many more! The Super Youg Team get invovled with the Seven Soldiers' Mister Miracle, so things are happening there for them, though it's not much yet. And finally, yes we're there, we get two big things: Wonder woman vs. Mary Marvel, where Diana becomes that pig monster and becomes a disease carrier (poor Diana "sobs"), and the Anti-Life now has spread itself all over the world. Yes, Evil. Has. Won!

Overall, I dare someone to say something bad about this issue. This is where, as promised by the way, alot of things happen, the core of this series finally hits it into high gear, and everything is in full high gear. People are hit hard, evil has won, the draft, the news of Barry, ALOT of things have happened. And I believe it is finally now that you get the sense of the entire planet, the entire universe, is the cast of this event. Yes, it IS an event. Now Grant has got us, just like he did with "Batman R.I.P.", and I want to know what's next, in similar respects just like "All Star Superman", which has one more issue by the way. This issue wasn't bad, this issue was that good. Now, as we wait for a month for issue #4, we now hit the one shots. Once we return with issue #4, one might ask: is it really the end? And how can the heroes survive and win?

RATING: Yay

Next Issue: Evil has won! Is it the end?

[XPac]

I think it's been pretty clearly hinted that Metron's the key to the resistance. Morrison even more or less came right out and said so I think in one interview.

But I think all the New Gods will be revived - that's Mister Miracle's purpose, as shown in Seven Soldiers when Metron says to Shilo in #1,

"The choice is simple. Free the Bright Ones or be slaves to the Dark. Live and join us. Or die for Darkseid."

(which nicely echoes Kirby's New Gods #1, BTW, where Highfather says to Orion: "The Universe - slave or free - on Apokolips their ruler, Darkseid, has already made that choice! What shall ours be, Orion?")

And this idea is glanced at in a crude way in FC#3 when the Green Lantern guy with the cape says how they've always had the help of the New Genesis technology and warriors when they've had to fight Darkseid in the past. I think Morrison actually needs to work a little harder to gte this point across, myself, because there's about 25 years worth of misconceptions to clear up there, as seen by the reactions of readers who still think Superman is Darkseid's "greatest enemy" etc, etc.

Yeah. It would definately be nice if FC ends up elevating Darkseid to more Galactus status rather than just Superman status. He's been way to watered down.

[earl]

I don't know what I would have thought of Final Crisis when I was a teenager, but I know this series has that sense of amazement at every panel like the original Crisis did for me then.

I can see why some people might not like the book, as it has a pacing more of a suspense mystery where a lot of the action happens between the lines than a big shoot em up.

Then again, I liked The Invisibles, I'm along for the ride in Batman RIP, I loved 7 Soldiers and 52. It looks like Geoff Johns is going to have the keys to the DC Universe next summer with Blackest Night and whatever he is cooking up in Superman, so maybe there will be better luck next year for those that don't like Final Crisis.

[krammocon]

THIS was the big finish that we are expected to wait a skip month for another issue? I can barely understand what the hell is happening. IC was much better with the build up AND execution (so far).

I agree! Oh and LOL at Supergirl being on the cover but hardly ever featured inside, other than the one to highlight Streaky her cat. She even got pushed at the back of the group on that drafted superheroes 1 page panel.

IC was way much better than this FC. And I think the sales seemed to think so too.. Oh well!

[Adam C]

If FC turns out to be an epic battle of good and evil, it's not supposed to happen now. Now, I'm not saying that you have to like it, but at least judge it for what it is, not what you had hoped it to be.

I personally read the arc of the first three issues that way. Evil is established as triumphant, and now the rest of the story will likely be about how the heroes overcome that.

[Super Buddies Forever]

I would like to reiterate yet again that I don't find anything confusing about this series. It's really not the intellectual mind-blower that so many have made it out to be. Nor do I have a problem with it because I'm a Marvel fan who is biased towards Secret Invasion. Read my user name, people. I'm DC to the bone. And, no, I don't crave action and explosions. I'm all about the nuance and think comics don't have enough of it.

I envy those of you are who are enjoying it, but I think three issues is more than enough time to bail out on the monthly issues. I'm a big Morrison fan, but this is just reading like clunky fan fiction, right down to the dialog.

[Adam C]

You don't need to justify it to me. If you don't like it, you don't like it. And personally I'm glad that discussion of this issue so far hasn't involved sniping over liking Final Crisis vs. Secret Invasion. (Which is different than comparing the two series.)

[Spiffy]

I personally read the arc of the first three issues that way. Evil is established as triumphant, and now the rest of the story will likely be about how the heroes overcome that.
Well, at the very least it ain't gonna be the hero who's a cross between some kind of wild boar, a dog, and a woman now. And probably not the one who's been tied up and used as an S&M pincushion. Or the one who seems to have abandoned his post and chosen wifey over the rest of the world. Or anyone with a Green Lantern ring.

I'm thinking Morrison intends to fall back on B and C listers. Who somehow managed to NOT get infected by the anti-life equation? Okay, I guess we roll with that.

I wonder how many of them Morrison will let Wonder Boar kill, and how very very sad she will be about it later.

But seriously, for all the talk about this "changing things forever", really we already know the only place this can lead is to an eventual reboot. DC isn't going to live with a Superman who abandoned the field of battle, a Wonder Woman who in several weeks time had to have murdered people by the score, and a Batman who's... I dunno... neutered... be the new status quo. It means that by the end of this the grumbling will probably have shifted to "why'd we bother", since it will all be undone anyway.

[Buried Alien]

Well, at the very least it ain't gonna be the hero who's a cross between some kind of wild boar, a dog, and a woman now. And probably not the one who's been tied up and used as an S&M pincushion. Or the one who seems to have abandoned his post and chosen wifey over the rest of the world. Or anyone with a Green Lantern ring.

I'm thinking Morrison intends to fall back on B and C listers. Who somehow managed to NOT get infected by the anti-life equation? Okay, I guess we roll with that.

I wonder how many of them Morrison will let Wonder Boar kill, and how very very sad she will be about it later.

But seriously, for all the talk about this "changing things forever", really we already know the only place this can lead is to an eventual reboot. DC isn't going to live with a Superman who abandoned the field of battle, a Wonder Woman who in several weeks time had to have murdered people by the score, and a Batman who's... I dunno... neutered... be the new status quo. It means that by the end of this the grumbling will probably have shifted to "why'd we bother", since it will all be undone anyway.

You seem to be complaining about many things that haven't happened...and might never happen.

Just read on...or not.

I don't know where Grant Morrison is going with this, and that's actually a good thing. I'd be disappointed if I somehow was able to anticipate everything Morrison plans to do in this series.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[VicVasDeferens]

A bullet was shot back-in-time for Barry Allen so the Black Racer could go after him.

In DCU #0, Flash actually hears the bullet fired and goes after it.

[VicVasDeferens]

Wonder how Darkseid keeps the Spectre from interfering?

Spear of Destiny.
I think Libra has it.

[Karl O'Neill]

In DCU #0, Flash actually hears the bullet fired and goes after it.

well spotted! I will re-read that tonight!

[Dark Master]

What the hell did they did to Mary Marvel is disgusting. And how does she still have the power? Black Adam got it back from her.

[VicVasDeferens]

I agree! Oh and LOL at Supergirl being on the cover but hardly ever featured inside, other than the one to highlight Streaky her cat. She even got pushed at the back of the group on that drafted superheroes 1 page panel.



What are you talking about?
You do realize there are two covers per issue: an iconic cover and a story-related cover.

The Supergirl cover wasn't meant to have anything to do with the story; the Wonder Woman cover does.

[VicVasDeferens]

What the hell did they did to Mary Marvel is disgusting. And how does she still have the power? Black Adam got it back from her.

If by "they" you mean the Evil Factory, well, yes. She was remade in Granny's image. That's the point. They're evil. Look at what happened to Wonder Woman.

[lawman]

I don't know. I'm still not feeling this story. There just doesn't seem to be any momentum, or a sense that this is indeed the darkest day the DCU has ever seen. It's a collection of things that floats Grant Morrison's boat, sledgehammered to fit the vague idea of what a DC Crisis should be.
I completely agree. We're three issues in, and have supposedly reached the real, dramatic "crisis" moment... and yet so far what I'm seeing is more kitchen-sink plotting; scattershot pacing; flat, expository dialogue; one-note characterization; and slapdash art with no sense of drama or dynamism. Both Morrison and Jones have done far better work than this.

I don't mind a "demanding" story (in fact, I love one -- Promethea, anyone?) if the payoff is worth the effort. This one just isn't. So far, it still feels like it's barely getting started. It's had a few clever ideas (e.g., the bullet-through-time), but not a single genuine "wow" moment to justify the scale of the project. It may play great in Morrison's head, but whatever he's imagining isn't making it onto the page.

(And evil Mary Marvel just looked ridiculous -- even more so than in Countdown, which I would have doubted was possible.)

(Oh, and the gratuitous gore was, well, gratuitous. Yuck.)

That [mummy] was Boss Dark Side (look at the tiepin). Darkseid doesn't need him anymore, since he's in Turpin now.
Sure would be nice if something in the actual comic (as opposed to Morrison's interviews/commentaries) made this clear!...

In the commentary from Final Crisis #1 Director's Cut, Grant mentions that the design that Anthro draws on his face (which is also on Metron's mask) is an important defense against Darkseid.
Same again...

Because we understand it and follow Grant Morrison's work. This is basically the conclusion to the Morrison-verse just like All-Star Superman is apart of the Morrison-verse. This definitely is for the Morrison-fanboy not the regular comic fan that reads 50 books in one month.
Brilliant idea DC had marketing it as a summer-tentpole, universe-spanning event, then, eh? :rolleyes: Seriously: this is not nor was it meant to be a quirky, niche story like Seven Soldiers. (Although that was a far more enjoyable project by far -- the long wait for the conclusion notwithstanding.)

I would like to reiterate yet again that I don't find anything confusing about this series. It's really not the intellectual mind-blower that so many have made it out to be... And, no, I don't crave action and explosions. I'm all about the nuance and think comics don't have enough of it.

I envy those of you are who are enjoying it, but I think three issues is more than enough time to bail out on the monthly issues. I'm a big Morrison fan, but this is just reading like clunky fan fiction, right down to the dialog.
You're speaking for me, again, here.

A single page that sums up the problem: just compare that weak, static, background-free, narratively empty group shot of the "drafted" heroes with the incredible, intricately detailed, dramatic, story- and character-advancing scenes of everyone gathering in Wolfman and Perez' original Crisis. It's painful.

I had really, really wanted to like this. Sigh...

[Scott Taylor]

Loving it. Right down to Tawny the Tiger.

[HaroldAllnut]

In DCU #0, Flash actually hears the bullet fired and goes after it.

I just realized that that old strip club featured in Final Crisis #2 was the one prominently placed in the splash on the final page of DC Universe #0.

[VicVasDeferens]

I completely agree. We're three issues in, and have supposedly reached the real, dramatic "crisis" moment... and yet so far what I'm seeing is more kitchen-sink plotting; scattershot pacing; flat, expository dialogue; one-note characterization; and slapdash art with no sense of drama or dynamism. Both Morrison and Jones have done far better work than this.

I don't mind a "demanding" story (in fact, I love one -- Promethea, anyone?) if the payoff is worth the effort. This one just isn't. So far, it still feels like it's barely getting started. It's had a few clever ideas (e.g., the bullet-through-time), but not a single genuine "wow" moment to justify the scale of the project. It may play great in Morrison's head, but whatever he's imagining isn't making it onto the page.

(And evil Mary Marvel just looked ridiculous -- even more so than in Countdown, which I would have doubted was possible.)

(Oh, and the gratuitous gore was, well, gratuitous. Yuck.)


Sure would be nice if something in the actual comic (as opposed to Morrison's interviews/commentaries) made this clear!...


Same again...


Brilliant idea DC had marketing it as a summer-tentpole, universe-spanning event, then, eh? :rolleyes: Seriously: this is not nor was it meant to be a quirky, niche story like Seven Soldiers. (Although that was a far more enjoyable project by far -- the long wait for the conclusion notwithstanding.)


You're speaking for me, again, here.

A single page that sums up the problem: just compare that weak, static, background-free, narratively empty group shot of the "drafted" heroes with the incredible, intricately detailed, dramatic, story- and character-advancing scenes of everyone gathering in Wolfman and Perez' original Crisis. It's painful.

I had really, really wanted to like this. Sigh...

Those of you who don't like FC won't be convinced otherwise.
I mean, seriously, you needed somebody to point out that was Boss Dark Side all mummified? It's already been said that human bodies don't last very long when inhabited by a god. We'd seen that Boss Dark Side walked/limped with that cane in #1. Did you not notice his glasses, or the fact that he was found in the Dark Side Club?

And how about you stop comparing J.G. Jones to George Perez? They're, obviously, not the same artist.

[Spiffy]

You seem to be complaining about many things that haven't happened...and might never happen.

Just read on...or not.

I don't know where Grant Morrison is going with this, and that's actually a good thing. I'd be disappointed if I somehow was able to anticipate everything Morrison plans to do in this series.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
Do I know everything he's going to do? Of course not. But there's a solid line of reasoning to predict certain things, and simply shutting down discussion of those possibilities would instead turn this topic into simple cheerleading.

If I'm wrong, then so be it. But we've already SEEN characters act in ways that shake their foundations more than a bit. Sure, they could have Superman come back and save the day, but I'm doubting it will happen that way. Instead, we'll have a Superman who we have to accept chose Lois over the rest of the world. I suppose since we didn't actually see him accept that offer, there's room for some doubt, but at the very least we've been told he was AWOL for the duration of a mounting crisis.

As for Wonder Woman, it might be possible to create some elaborate plotting to avoid her having actually done anything all that bad in the time she's been transformed, but man would it seem contrived. It's logical to conclude that as an anti-life carrying member of the Army of Darkseid, she's been a very bad girl (the same goes for whatever other heroes are in the same thrall). Now DC could choose to leave those misdeeds in continuity after this is over in a number of ways. They could just blow it off as "well, she wasn't herself". They could play the "guilty heroes" card. But what's most likely? They make it all disappear. Is this a sure thing? I can admit not. But its hardly outrageous to think its pretty darn likely.

[lawman]

Those of you who don't like FC won't be convinced otherwise.
What, so you don't want to talk about it? It's not as if I'm frothing at the mouth about it; I've offered some very specific criticisms.

I mean, seriously, you needed somebody to point out that was Boss Dark Side all mummified? It's already been said that human bodies don't last very long when inhabited by a god.
Yep, sorry, I did. My take thus far was that "Boss" Dark Side et al. were human avatars of the New Gods, not pre-existing ordinary humans who had been "possessed" by them. On these same terms, while it was indicated in #2 that something had happened to Turpin after the attack by the kids in #1, it was not even remotely clear that he had been "taken over" by Darkseid, as everyone is now saying.

Nor do I apologize for my "misunderstanding": I've been reading comics for decades, and I've enjoyed quite a lot of Morrison's other work, not to mention complex, nuanced stories by Moore, Gaiman, and other writers. I feel confident in saying that this one is just not well told so far. Maybe the bulk of the blame falls to Jones, though; honestly, the script excerpts from GM I've read online, and even his interviews about the book, seem more coherent and dramatically compelling than the comic itself.

And how about you stop comparing J.G. Jones to George Perez? They're, obviously, not the same artist.
I did it exactly once. Oversensitive much? Or are all comparisons to other artists simply out of bounds? :redface:

Damn straight they're not the same artist, though. For instance, Perez would've designed a page in #2 that actually made it clear what was happening during that attack on John Stewart. (And he wouldn't have forgotten to draw the ring on John's finger, either!)

[lawman]

there are plenty of us who had zero problems figuring these things out, so there's no way this is anyone's failing other than yours.
Well, hey, if it's a "failing," it's obviously not mine alone, since lots of people all around the internet are posting similar complaints.

Honestly, I don't mind having to "work" to understand the nuances and intricacies of a story, to grasp its themes, to piece together a mystery or interpret symbolism. As I've already noted, I've quite enjoyed books like Promethea and Seven Soldiers. (And Watchmen. And From Hell. And Sandman. And Planetary. And so on and so forth.)

That's different, however, from having to work just to figure out what the hell is going on, which is frequently the case here. I've already mentioned the pacing and plotting: let me delve into a little more detail. In comics, just as in film, there are certain familiar devices that are useful to keep the audience oriented -- transitions, bridging scenes, location shots, cues to the passage of time. This book is woefully lacking in all of the above. Read the last Turpin scene in FC #1, for instance, then the Turpin/Hatter scene in #2, and tell me how the one is supposed to flow into the other, much less how one should know exactly what happened to Turpin. (For that matter, tell me what the Hatter has to do with anything going on.) Or tell me how much time passes while all the heroes are being "drafted" in #3 (and speaking of pacing, why is the concluding panel of the Freddy/Tawny scene placed between other random scenes in this sequence?). Or let's beat a dead horse and talk about the visually incoherent John Stewart attack scene in #2. I could go on.

Now, tell me again how it's all my fault?

Seriously, if you want to defend the book, just defend the book -- don't attack its critics.

[Spiffy]

there are plenty of us who had zero problems figuring these things out, so there's no way this is anyone's failing other than yours.
That seems a bit harsh.

I mean, the fact that multiple people posted on a board that they figured it out and only one has posted that he didn't in no way proves that only one person couldn't figure it out. All it proves is that only one person posted about not figuring it out.

As it happens, I think if I hadn't quickly logged on here after reading that issue, it might have taken me a couple readthroughs to figure out exactly what happened in that scene. I never got the chance to draw any deep conclusions only because I was kind of impatient, but I do recall a distinct sense of frustration after reading those pages and can definitely understand readers feeling left out to sea by it.

[Spiffy]

Now, tell me again how it's all my fault?

Seriously, if you want to defend the book, just defend the book -- don't attack its critics.
Hoo-boy. You think this is bad, try questioning the quality of Batman RIP, over in that forum. Its like declaring yourself a combination of the village idiot, the antichrist, Joe Stalin, and putting a "kick me" sign on your own back.

[botch]

basically it was another incredible issue. looking forward to everything that will flesh out what happens during the missing month.

someone needs to read some more comics. 'incredible' i reserve for Captain America and Immortal Iron Fist. This issue was pretty good but the previous two were a s s.

[mdg1]

On Darkseid's orders (presumably), Libra uses Metron's chair (or a facsimile thereof) to fire a radion bullet backwards in time to kill Orion.

Barry Allen descends from the Speed Force to stop it, picking up Wally & Jay along the way. The Racer isn't chasing them, per se, since he's after Orion. As we see in this week's issue, they failed to catch the bullet... and the Racer turns and looks at them.

Naturally, they perform a temporal 180 and make a run for it, assuming the Racer is going after them. Jay makes it to "this week", while Barry and Wally skip a month ahead.

Any questions?

[Calybos]

It would be so cool if this story were interesting... but it's just not.

Characters I have no reason to care about, involved in stuff that makes no sense and doesn't seem to be going anywhere and just doesn't seem to matter on any significant scale. That's not a formula for an epic, groundbreaking story.

It's like witnessing a supernova remnant from a distant galaxy--"That's cool and all, but since it doesn't directly affect anyone I know or care about, it's just color and lights."

I know some people are determined to see genius in this series, simply because Morrison's name is on it. But it's just not a very compelling story so far. And if you need to study up on all the details and assemble your own casebook of "hints and clues and possible foreshadowing interpretations," that's just bad storytelling.

[botch]

Because we understand it and follow Grant Morrison's work. This is basically the conclusion to the Morrison-verse just like All-Star Superman is apart of the Morrison-verse. This definitely is for the Morrison-fanboy not the regular comic fan that reads 50 books in one month.

huh? But i'm a mega fan of nearly all Morrison's work. This. Not so much.

Your argument doesn't fly. All Star Superman, invisibles, WE3, doom patrol, animal man, hellblazer etc etc are all on another level compared to this.

[mdg1]

And if you need to study up on all the details and assemble your own casebook of "hints and clues and possible foreshadowing interpretations," that's just bad storytelling.

Or a good mystery. (unless it's a COLUMBO episode :) )

[skally19]

i've never read anything by morrison before RIP and final crisis. i'm not having any troubles.

[Splatt]

i've never read anything by morrison before RIP and final crisis. i'm not having any troubles.

I'm in the same boat.

[Dark Master]

If by "they" you mean the Evil Factory, well, yes. She was remade in Granny's image. That's the point. They're evil. Look at what happened to Wonder Woman.

But how does she still have her powers?

[icctrombone]

Have to agree with the posters that say it's an ordinary mini.

Although a lot is going on , not enough of it is coherently presented in a way to garner my interest.
It's all in the presentation. We all know that the heroes win at the end but the first three issues don't comunicate that THIS is a battle that the heroes have to be worried about.

[CMBMOOL]

On Darkseid's orders (presumably), Libra uses Metron's chair (or a facsimile thereof) to fire a radion bullet backwards in time to kill Orion.

Barry Allen descends from the Speed Force to stop it, picking up Wally & Jay along the way. The Racer isn't chasing them, per se, since he's after Orion. As we see in this week's issue, they failed to catch the bullet... and the Racer turns and looks at them.

Naturally, they perform a temporal 180 and make a run for it, assuming the Racer is going after them. Jay makes it to "this week", while Barry and Wally skip a month ahead.

Any questions?


Well that sort of makes some sense into the story overall. :frown:

[XPac]

Hmmm... I'm not exactly sure how I feel about FC.

I do overall find it interesting... but it's not exactly the funnest read on the shelf.

They're throwing out a lot of interesting things, but it's just not connecting together as well as I would like.

A lot of time is spent on characters I don't care that much about (at least so far), and in some ways I wish that time was spent developing other aspects that I think need to be fleshed out. It's almost too compressed.

That said, I'm still on board. I love the writer, and have faith that it will come together in the end. I'm just not there yet.

[matt_hatyber]

It would be so cool if this story were interesting... but it's just not.

Characters I have no reason to care about, involved in stuff that makes no sense and doesn't seem to be going anywhere and just doesn't seem to matter on any significant scale. That's not a formula for an epic, groundbreaking story.

It's like witnessing a supernova remnant from a distant galaxy--"That's cool and all, but since it doesn't directly affect anyone I know or care about, it's just color and lights."

I know some people are determined to see genius in this series, simply because Morrison's name is on it. But it's just not a very compelling story so far. And if you need to study up on all the details and assemble your own casebook of "hints and clues and possible foreshadowing interpretations," that's just bad storytelling.

I know its your opinion, but still how can you say the story isnt going anywhere? The world was taken over by the anti-life equation. Every single person with a computer is under the control of darksied.

Just wondering but what characters do you care about? Because saying that this is happening to characters you dont care about is odd to say, because it is happening to every character on earth.

[drinkblatzbeer]

yeah, i think you're right on...there's been a lot explored (minimally due to the constraints put on by the fact it has a certain number of pages it can be)...

it's pretty epic in scale and i do like how it's been playing out so far...
funny, as they tried to minimalize the crossovers as to keep the story focused and contained, this is a story that could really use as much stuff on the side as possible to flesh everything out...

[botch]

Damn straight they're not the same artist, though. For instance, Perez would've designed a page in #2 that actually made it clear what was happening during that attack on John Stewart. (And he wouldn't have forgotten to draw the ring on John's finger, either!)

That really did suck. most unclear storytelling in a while.

there are plenty of us who had zero problems figuring these things out, so there's no way this is anyone's failing other than yours.

Sorry but alot of people had the same issues with the issue(ha), the john stewart attack sequence did bug alot of people.

[botch]

i've never read anything by morrison before RIP and final crisis. i'm not having any troubles.

I'm in the same boat.

It's off topic but you two are crazy. pick up invisibles, animal man, all star superman now!

[IvCNuB4]

. (For that matter, tell me what the Hatter has to do with anything going on.) .

Hatter developed the prototype of the mind-control helmets we see this issue. That's what he was saying to Turpin last issue ...



edit: it seems straightforward: i'm superwoman, the skies are bleeding/hemoraging, hell is here
something to that effect right? that's already been stated in this thread a couple of times i thought

Pages 4,5,6 of this thread ....

[Magneto Rocks]

Loved the issue. Abso-freaking-loutely LOVED it. As I've said before, it's one of my favourite writers with an incredible artist on a story centring around the Fourth World and the Flashes, I couldn't *not* love it. I like the burgeoning mythology, I love all the callbacks to Kirby's Fourth World- especially with the Justifiers! (...Poor Mike...) I really felt Clark's pain as he sat with Lois. (Morrison may honestly write the best Superman in existence between glimpses here, All-Star, JLA etc...) The gathering of the All-Star Squadron will doubtless prove very important and I enjoyed seeing the heroes come together only to lose the war to a thrat they couldn't possibly have a fist fight against. I continue to enjoy the Super Young Team and Sonny Sumo (Doubtless they'll play a big part in saving the world).

I actually felt the Bludhaven section was the weakest this issue, as though it's certainly pretty freaky, I'm not a fan of Mary Marvel's new look- or, I have to admit, the fight, which underwhelmed me a bit. (And only lasted 2 pages anyway...) But the ending... dear GOD, that ending... I knew what was coming from the moment the e-mail was found but to see what the world has become and the NEW Female Furies... wow.

Now I did have some problems- I think DC have done a horrendous job when it comes to not-spoiling this book. They blew the Barry Allen surprise with DCU 0, Morrison flat out told us the ending of FC3, the solicit tells us HOW that ending comes about, and is there anyone on Earth who was surprised when J'onn died? BUt that's not enough to undermine a really, REALLY strong issue, the best so far, and I cannot wait to see what happens next.

As to the "elitism" debate that runs through- here's how I see it. FC is a bit more demanding than your average comic, sure. But there are plenty of legitimate reasons to dislike it or even hate it, and that doesn';t mean you don't "get" it, it doesn't mean you're not smart or you're not trying, it just means that you don't enjoy this type of writing and some do, and that's fine. Sure, some people are being dickish about it, but others are definitely being excruciatingly arrogant in their defence of the comic...

[Adam C]

there are plenty of us who had zero problems figuring these things out, so there's no way this is anyone's failing other than yours.

I agree with Spiffy. We really don't need this kind of approach to conversation.

[Paul McEnery]

Have to agree with the posters that say it's an ordinary mini.

Although a lot is going on , not enough of it is coherently presented in a way to garner my interest.
It's all in the presentation. We all know that the heroes win at the end but the first three issues don't comunicate that THIS is a battle that the heroes have to be worried about.

Er, given that the heroes lose, and lose utterly,at the end of the third issue, I'd have thought that communicated it quite well.

However, what was going on before was the heroes being overconfident and not realizing what they were up against and what was going down. As Mary Marvel says: "You're @#$%&!"

Probaly worth pointing out the parallels to the final volume of The Invisibles, where Mob throws away the gun and takes on memetic war.



Also, by the by, an avatar is literally a human being possessed by a god, so that's a distinction without a difference. This is something most of us had figured out during the confusion of the first two issues, but which Mary Marvel spells out for us in this issue.

Personally, I'm not seeing that "they were possessed by Gods all along" is that much harder to understand than "they were Skrulls all along".

[Adam C]

That's different, however, from having to work just to figure out what the hell is going on, which is frequently the case here. I've already mentioned the pacing and plotting: let me delve into a little more detail. In comics, just as in film, there are certain familiar devices that are useful to keep the audience oriented -- transitions, bridging scenes, location shots, cues to the passage of time. This book is woefully lacking in all of the above. Read the last Turpin scene in FC #1, for instance, then the Turpin/Hatter scene in #2, and tell me how the one is supposed to flow into the other, much less how one should know exactly what happened to Turpin. (For that matter, tell me what the Hatter has to do with anything going on.) Or tell me how much time passes while all the heroes are being "drafted" in #3 (and speaking of pacing, why is the concluding panel of the Freddy/Tawny scene placed between other random scenes in this sequence?). Or let's beat a dead horse and talk about the visually incoherent John Stewart attack scene in #2. I could go on.

About the only one I'm seeing is the transition between the Turpin/Dark Side scene to the Turpin/Hatter scene where that was completely left out. It struck me as deliberately incoherent to reflect both Turpin's own confusion and still keep a bit of mystery over the unveiling of Darkseid. Granted I'm not sure if it was required myself and his failure to follow-up on it in issue #3 leaves me wondering if this point will get addressed.

(Though what does Hatter have to do with anything, it was established in the dialogue with Turpin, he delivered the kids to the Dark Side club.)

The other parts, I really can't see what's so confusing about them. The heroes are assembled and we see a few of them going off to muster in standard "assemble the heroes!" montage sequence. What's so confusing about that, and why does there need an accounting of how much time passes?

[4thHorseman]

Read the last Turpin scene in FC #1, for instance, then the Turpin/Hatter scene in #2, and tell me how the one is supposed to flow into the other, much less how one should know exactly what happened to Turpin.

Turpin was looking for kids, arrived and met Darkseid, something happened (in issue 2 stated he was taken control of, thus his lapse of memory), and so he's back trying to find the kids (though he doesn't remember finding them in issue 1).

(For that matter, tell me what the Hatter has to do with anything going on.)

Like mentioned above, mind control helmets

Or tell me how much time passes while all the heroes are being "drafted" in #3 (and speaking of pacing, why is the concluding panel of the Freddy/Tawny scene placed between other random scenes in this sequence?).

Haven't read it yet, so can't comment

Or let's beat a dead horse and talk about the visually incoherent John Stewart attack scene in #2.

Don't really understand what was so visually incoherent. (Trying to recall from memory) John was met by a cloaked person, they stuck him up to the wall using green nails, John pulled out, punched the hand of the attacker, and on to the next panel.

Now, tell me again how it's all my fault?

Not reading or just not able to comprehend a simple story?

Seriously, if you want to defend the book, just defend the book -- don't attack its critics.

It seems people are saying the book is poorly written because many people are having a hard time understanding it, yet...there's lots of people who do understand it with no problem. To me, it's not so much the book that's causing problems as the people. Whether they read through it to fast, don't comprehend it correctly or whatever, it's not with the book. Otherwise, everyone would be having problems.

[robbieglenn]

Just got it and hot diggedly damn its all kicked off!

On a side note, for people who are larkin on about unclear story telling, isnt that the point? not even the people in the story know whats going on, its been sprung on them in a few days, they know what we know, or less !

[Adam C]

I'm thinking Morrison intends to fall back on B and C listers. Who somehow managed to NOT get infected by the anti-life equation? Okay, I guess we roll with that.

Well it not only makes sense that the big three would be targeted first, but I think it also falls somewhat in line with Morrison's writing on JLA where he often gave lesser heroes a chance to shine.


Sure would be nice if something in the actual comic (as opposed to Morrison's interviews/commentaries) made this clear!...

Darkseid's minions calling Turpin "Great One" along with Turpin's confusion and ear bleeding didn't make that point clear?

Same again...

This one certainly wasn't explained, but I'm not so sure that was required at this point in the narrative. Judging by the Kamandi/Anthro scene in issue one and the way they pop up in odd places in the DCU in issue three it seems like their significance is more meant to be mystery at this point, and all we know is that they have some connection with Metron. At least that's my reading of the matter.

[icctrombone]

Er, given that the heroes lose, and lose utterly,at the end of the third issue, I'd have thought that communicated it quite well.

However, what was going on before was the heroes being overconfident and not realizing what they were up against and what was going down. As Mary Marvel says: "You're @#$%&!"

Probaly worth pointing out the parallels to the final volume of The Invisibles, where Mob throws away the gun and takes on memetic war.



Also, by the by, an avatar is literally a human being possessed by a god, so that's a distinction without a difference. This is something most of us had figured out during the confusion of the first two issues, but which Mary Marvel spells out for us in this issue.

Personally, I'm not seeing that "they were possessed by Gods all along" is that much harder to understand than "they were Skrulls all along".

I guess I've just seen this before. And, as a matter of fact , from the same writer when he did the "Rock of Ages" story arc in JLA.

[Adam C]

Don't really understand what was so visually incoherent. (Trying to recall from memory) John was met by a cloaked person, they stuck him up to the wall using green nails, John pulled out, punched the hand of the attacker, and on to the next panel.

Well there's the one panel where we see the hooded figure attacking Stewart from behind with their arm raised towards him. I don't have the issue in front of me, but the way the shading was done on that one really made the figure look disjointed and weird.

Though other than that I don't see any problems with the scene myself.


On a side note, for people who are larkin on about unclear story telling, isnt that the point? not even the people in the story know whats going on, its been sprung on them in a few days, they know what we know, or less !

Well we know more than the heroes about how the Dark Gods have been setting up their conquest of the Earth. The complaints are more over the fact that the story and flow of action is hard to follow, though I admit I have a hard time understanding this since it's been pretty straightforward to me.

[Infra-Man]

I think the most confusing thing about FC#3 was why was Supergirl on the cover. Alan Scott or Wonder Woman would have made more sense.

EDIT:
I mean, Hal and the Green Lanterns are pretty prominent in issue #1. Barry Allen is the big reveal at the end of #2. Supergirl is in two panels of #3.

[vitruvian]

Of course, billions of people still don't have Internet or e-mail of any kind, so that's a whole lot of people that the Dark Gods will have to distribute the ALE to manually, it seems.

[Magneto Rocks]

Of course, billions of people still don't have Internet or e-mail of any kind, so that's a whole lot of people that the Dark Gods will have to distribute the ALE to manually, it seems.

Yeah, but they'll have a whole lot of people to do it. And how long before it's on TV, the radio, really everywhere?

[Infra-Man]

Yeah, but they'll have a whole lot of people to do it. And how long before it's on TV, the radio, really everywhere?

You know, it'd be interesting to see if there is a sizable resistance based in third-world countries.

[Kevinroc]

Yeah, but they'll have a whole lot of people to do it. And how long before it's on TV, the radio, really everywhere?

I'm reminded of a rather old episode of the Superfriends where a scientist sent out weather balloons attached with a device that would shrink everyone within a certain radius of the device.

(Beware the evil weather balloons!)

He eventually uses radio and tv waves to get the shrinking done.

(But the weather balloon thing was probably a better idea for third-world countries.)

[Bat-Dude]

I agree that Countdown has mucked up FC, but you can't blame Morrison for that or claim he had a responsibility to speak to the CD writers. The entire blame of CD should be laid on Dan DiDio's shoulders.

As for Grant Morrison over-hyping the story...well, what else did you expect, really? I'm not sure I can think of an instance where a creator hasn't over-hyped a story. It would be more shocking if a story actually lived up to the hype, actually :rolleyes:

My biggest beaf is with Mary Marvel. I can appreciate the shock value of her transformation that GM was going for in FC and DiDio ruined that by trying to make a gradual descent in CD - when it was more a simple matter of possession by evil god.

I'm still hoping that one day DC will fix Billy and Mary...but I'm not holding my breath waiting :frown:

[dotdotdot]

i'm glad we're still talking about how incredible this issue was

[Spiffy]

Hey could a mod move this thread over to the FC forum? I put it in the wrong forum.
There's another well established thread there on this same subject.

I suppose the mod has to decide whether to merge the two, lock the smaller one, move it and let two exist there, or leave it here (there is, for example, also another FC topic in the
"You'll All Be Sorry" forum, which seems to exist on its own just fine there...)

[Kevinroc]

i'm glad we're still talking about how incredible this issue was

I didn't think the issue was "incredible." I thought it was pretty lackluster. The characters are emotionally distant and evil Mary Marvel is still a stupid idea that Morrison couldn't make work.

[Spiffy]

i'm glad we're still talking about how incredible this issue was
Not sure there's a consensus there... :biggrin:

[Omega Alpha]

I don't know, I felt this issue was all over the place. Throwing too much ideas and not bothering to making them all work together.

[Magneto Rocks]

I didn't think the issue was "incredible." I thought it was pretty lackluster. The characters are emotionally distant and evil Mary Marvel is still a stupid idea that Morrison couldn't make work.

I think he explained it pretty well. Does it make sense that Mary Marvel, pure as she is, would go evil voluntarily? Hell no. So here we clearly see she was corrupted by the influence of Darkseid and quite possibly the possession of one of the Evil Gods. She certainly came across more threatening and better than she ever did in Countdown. As for the characters being emotionally distant, I fear that's the price you pay for working with a mass cast- I'd argue the same problem is present in Secret Invasion.

[dotdotdot]

I didn't think the issue was "incredible." I thought it was pretty lackluster. The characters are emotionally distant and evil Mary Marvel is still a stupid idea that Morrison couldn't make work.

the scenes from the preview were anything but emotionally distant. the atomic knights were not emotionally distant. and saying something is a stupid idea assumes that out of all possibilities there are no good stories that can come about with an "evil mary marvel"....and that's just retarded.
put some more thought into this?

[Rio_de_Janeiro]

i go ahead and read each issue and get mesmerized/confused/shocked or amazed. then, i go online and filter through everything that is written or commented about the story. i discard hypothesis, i add new points of view, etc.
then, when arch is over, i re-read it as a whole, with all the new knowledge.

i love morrison for allowing me to do this.

[Spiffy]

the scenes from the preview were anything but emotionally distant. the atomic knights were not emotionally distant. and saying something is a stupid idea assumes that out of all possibilities there are no good stories that can come about with an "evil mary marvel"....and that's just retarded.
put some more thought into this?
Seems to me that trying to gauge the emotional impact of this story, either way, is a pretty subjective process.

Personally, I agree with the other poster that it feels a bit cold, but unlike him I'm not sure if that's a bad thing. It kind of fits the story.

Not that there aren't a boat load of other problems.

[Kevinroc]

I think he explained it pretty well. Does it make sense that Mary Marvel, pure as she is, would go evil voluntarily? Hell no. So here we clearly see she was corrupted by the influence of Darkseid and quite possibly the possession of one of the Evil Gods. She certainly came across more threatening and better than she ever did in Countdown. As for the characters being emotionally distant, I fear that's the price you pay for working with a mass cast- I'd argue the same problem is present in Secret Invasion.

No, evil Mary Marvel is an idea worthy of being mocked. It's very much of the "Penance bangs his head against a wall to prove how deep he is" variety of stupidity. As far as Mary being mind-controlled, that shows Morrison isn't as original as a lot of people seem to think he is.

(Face it, evil Mary is a stupid idea worthy of being mocked at this point.)

I didn't find Mary threatening. I found her to be stupid. I thought she looked ridiculous dressed up as a Female Fury.

As far as the characters of SI being emotionally distant... To an extant, they are... But nowhere near the level of Final Crisis. Superman's speech at J'onn's funeral in the last issue was so cold I had to wonder if the funeral was on Pluto. The Vision's fight against the Skrulls was more moving than anything that happened in any part of Final Crisis. Hawkeye/ Ronin maybe being reunited with Mockingbird was more moving than anything we've seen in FC so far.

Of course, this is purely my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

[dotdotdot]

Seems to me that trying to gauge the emotional impact of this story, either way, is a pretty subjective process.



cop out
...

[Samuraixsithlord]

Well it not only makes sense that the big three would be targeted first, but I think it also falls somewhat in line with Morrison's writing on JLA where he often gave lesser heroes a chance to shine.



Based on the solicitation for the up coming issues, it seems like the heroes that were recruited by Article X will be the heroes that are free from the Anti-Life equation.

Which looks like the current Teen Titans, the Outsiders, About half of the Justice Society and the Justice League, The Shadowpact,Supergirl and Green Arrow.

Wonder if Kingdom Come Superman will show up?

[Kevinroc]

cop out
...

Trust me, you don't want to get into the "emotionally distant content in fictional stories" discussion with me. Trust me when I say that I have read/ watched far too many stories that can pull off the "trippy" ideas yet still retain a level of emotional connection with the reader/ viewer. :smile:

[Magneto Rocks]

No, evil Mary Marvel is an idea worthy of being mocked. It's very much of the "Penance bangs his head against a wall to prove how deep he is" variety of stupidity. As far as Mary being mind-controlled, that shows Morrison isn't as original as a lot of people seem to think he is.

Oh come now, that's silly reasoning- because one minor aspect has been done before, NOTHING Morrison does is original? You may as well say "As far as Superman wearing a cape, that shows Morrison isn't original".

(Face it, evil Mary is a stupid idea worthy of being mocked at this point.)

Evil Mary was a very stupid idea which I haven't seen enough of to judge in FC, though I'll mock her in Countdown quite happily.

As far as the characters of SI being emotionally distant... To an extant, they are... But nowhere near the level of Final Crisis. Superman's speech at J'onn's funeral in the last issue was so cold I had to wonder if the funeral was on Pluto. The Vision's fight against the Skrulls was more moving than anything that happened in any part of Final Crisis. Hawkeye/ Ronin maybe being reunited with Mockingbird was more moving than anything we've seen in FC so far.

And we shall have to disagree. I didn't find the Vision's plight even REMOTELY moving, since it was just there for pure shock value (Though mind you, so was J'onn's death) and I found the Flash Family scene ten times as moving as the Ronin/Mockingbird reuniting. So yeah, to each his own!

[lawman]

Hoo-boy. You think this is bad, try questioning the quality of Batman RIP, over in that forum. Its like declaring yourself a combination of the village idiot, the antichrist, Joe Stalin, and putting a "kick me" sign on your own back.
Sounds like fun. :wink: Honestly, I've been pretty disappointed with B:RIP so far, as well (and for many of the same reasons), but I'm trying to reserve judgment...

[Tanjint]

but for the record, before and during the beginning of the stories saying you thought they were good/were going to be good was the SAME DAMN thing.

Time and time again people hate on Morrison's work till they're knee-deep in the awesomeness.

I say all this kind of quick from the hip because I truly believe with the nature of comics stories these days, you can't really judge the quality of a work till the trade is out, you know?


I liked this issue, but I have my biases....needs more Batman.

so...wasn't July already a skip month? when do we get another issue of final crisis? october?

-T

[Kevinroc]

Oh come now, that's silly reasoning- because one minor aspect has been done before, NOTHING Morrison does is original? You may as well say "As far as Superman wearing a cape, that shows Morrison isn't original".

Actually, a lot of things I see done in Final Crisis (and some pretty major themes) have been done relatively recently in comics. Gods hiding in mortal bodies? Thor did that (and the JMS relaunch wasn't even the first time that was done with those characters).

But the fact is... I expected Morrison to really do something interesting with Mary Marvel and he failed to deliver on that front besides giving her a ridiculous costume.

Evil Mary was a very stupid idea which I haven't seen enough of to judge in FC, though I'll mock her in Countdown quite happily.

I'm willing to mock it right now as she is bound to be an incredibly minor character in FC that Morrison didn't do anything with besides her ridiculous costume.

Penance is a stupid idea that Warren Ellis made work because he mocked it right away.

And we shall have to disagree. I didn't find the Vision's plight even REMOTELY moving, since it was just there for pure shock value (Though mind you, so was J'onn's death) and I found the Flash Family scene ten times as moving as the Ronin/Mockingbird reuniting. So yeah, to each his own!

J'onn's death, in FC itself, was particularly cold. He pretty much showed up in, like, one panel only to die in said panel. At least the Vision had a "defiant moment to stand up to the bad guys before they killed him" scene. The whole reason Requim exists is to give J'onn that kind of moment since Morrison didn't.

As far as the Flash scene... I might be a bit cynical on this subject but it feels more like desperation at this point to revive a dying franchise. Bart as Flash didn't take and Wally's return wasn't exactly popular so they are bringing back Barry. This is the 3rd attempt to reinvigorate the Flash franchise in... what... about 2 and a half years? Yeah... I find it hard not to be cynical at this point.

[Samuraixsithlord]

Well it not only makes sense that the big three would be targeted first, but I think it also falls somewhat in line with Morrison's writing on JLA where he often gave lesser heroes a chance to shine.



Based on the solicitation for the up coming issues, it seems like the heroes that were recruited by Article X will be the heroes that are free from the Anti-Life equation.

Which looks like the current Teen Titans, the Outsiders, About half of the Justice Society and the Justice League, The Shadowpact,Supergirl and Green Arrow.

Wonder if Kingdom Come Superman will show up?

[dotdotdot]

Trust me, you don't want to get into the "emotionally distant content in fictional stories" discussion with me. Trust me when I say that I have read/ watched far too many stories that can pull off the "trippy" ideas yet still retain a level of emotional connection with the reader/ viewer. :smile:

lol i am not threatened by this. like what?
also, what is trippy about final crisis? i think you're reaching here.

[COMIC GEEK]

my comments can be found in the correct forum as well as the already exsisting topic :biggrin:

[dotdotdot]

Actually, a lot of things I see done in Final Crisis (and some pretty major themes) have been done relatively recently in comics. Gods hiding in mortal bodies? Thor did that (and the JMS relaunch wasn't even the first time that was done with those characters).



something as iconic and simple as "gods hiding in mortal bodies" is so timeless and has become such a broad theme that it's bonkers to try to trace the first instance of it, even in comics, and to do so sounds like you just haven't read many. it's like the guy who quotes a line from a movie and doesn't realize that it is a generic line that has been uttered thousands of times before in film and everyday conversation, but he thinks that his movie invented it.

and why don't you actually address the reasons behind mary marvel's appearance? what should have the evil factory have made her look like instead? because this version seemed to be both shocking and slutty (in the vein of countdown) and at the same time monstrous and unappealing. the evil factory manipulating the flesh of the heroes goes back to kirby and needs to be represented in this definitive homage, so what way would you have done it?

[lawman]

The other parts, I really can't see what's so confusing about them. The heroes are assembled and we see a few of them going off to muster in standard "assemble the heroes!" montage sequence. What's so confusing about that, and why does there need an accounting of how much time passes?
Well, the whole sequence just struck me as peculiar. There are multiple (seemingly unrelated) crises in the offing, and Alan Scott's idea of how to rally help is to resort to an actual law ("Article X" -- never previously mentioned, BTW, including in the pages of All-Star Squadron, the origins of which GM mis-described) allowing him to "draft" other heroes, rather than just asking for their help? Oliver Queen noted the peculiarity of it himself, as he holds up a paper draft notice -- did Oracle circulate them by mail? There must have been quicker and more effective ways to gather everyone together.

And where did they hold that gathering, BTW? And how did Alan describe the problem, anyway, based on the limited information he had -- "evil gods may be conspiring against us"? And did they have time to do anything at all, or even make any plans, before the anti-life equation circulated?

(And BTW, on a tangent, what's with this "new Aquaman" who's being tossed in like an afterthought?)

Like I wrote, it all just seems like a plot sketch. It's a "Crisis story," so heroes must gather. Show vignettes of them gathering. Check off box on list of plot elements. Move on.

On a side note, for people who are larkin on about unclear story telling, isnt that the point? not even the people in the story know whats going on, its been sprung on them in a few days, they know what we know, or less !
It is, obviously, possible to tell a story that leaves its characters in the dark, without leaving its readers in the dark.

Let me clarify, though, that it's not as if I'm helplessly confused and have no clue what's happening. Most of it is clear enough, in a relatively perfunctory way, since it's not actually a terribly sophisticated plot. It's just that the details of what's happening, and how it's presented, seem to require a lot of filling-in-the-blanks by the readers without offering any extra payoff for the effort. The story would be more interesting and more dramatic and would flow more smoothly if it actually took the time to address some of these questions it's left hanging.

[dotdotdot]

Well, the whole sequence just struck me as peculiar. There are multiple (seemingly unrelated) crises in the offing, and Alan Scott's idea of how to rally help is to resort to an actual law ("Article X" -- never previously mentioned, BTW, including in the pages of All-Star Squadron, the origins of which GM mis-described) allowing him to "draft" other heroes, rather than just asking for their help? Oliver Queen noted the peculiarity of it himself, as he holds up a paper draft notice -- did Oracle circulate them by mail? There must have been quicker and more effective ways to gather everyone together.

And where did they hold that gathering, BTW? And how did Alan describe the problem, anyway, based on the limited information he had -- "evil gods may be conspiring against us"? And did they have time to do anything at all, or even make any plans, before the anti-life equation circulated?

(And BTW, on a tangent, what's with this "new Aquaman" who's being tossed in like an afterthought?)

Like I wrote, it all just seems like a plot sketch. It's a "Crisis story," so heroes must gather. Show vignettes of them gathering. Check off box on list of plot elements. Move on.

in the long view though, none of those things matter. it doesn't matter where they held the meet, how they circulated the draft, it matters that the heroes manage for form a last minute army only to make it easier for anti-life to get them all at once, which is what i'm assuming takes place. wonder woman goes back to them carrying the disease maybe, before the evil factory changes her appearance.

[dotdotdot]

a relatively perfunctory way, since it's not actually a terribly sophisticated plot. It's just that the details of what's happening, and how it's presented, seem to require a lot of filling-in-the-blanks by the readers without offering any extra payoff for the effort.

now that's valid, and is addressed in that video interview. what do you think of morrison's justifications for penning the story with this method?

[lawman]

On Darkseid's orders (presumably), Libra uses Metron's chair (or a facsimile thereof) to fire a radion bullet backwards in time to kill Orion.

Barry Allen descends from the Speed Force to stop it, picking up Wally & Jay along the way. The Racer isn't chasing them, per se, since he's after Orion. As we see in this week's issue, they failed to catch the bullet... and the Racer turns and looks at them.

Naturally, they perform a temporal 180 and make a run for it, assuming the Racer is going after them. Jay makes it to "this week", while Barry and Wally skip a month ahead.

Any questions?
Yeah, sure. Several.

On what do you base the assumption about Darkseid's orders? Why was the chair necessary for the firing of the bullet -- and if the chair's in the present, how far in the future was the bullet fired? How did Barry return to life? (And why for this, as opposed to any other crisis of the last 20 years?) If the Flashes know anything at all about the Black Racer, why would they be afraid of him? If Jay was safe stopping in the present, why didn't Wally and Barry do the same? If they thought he wasn't safe, why did they leave him behind and keep running? And that's all just off the top of my head.

Characters I have no reason to care about, involved in stuff that makes no sense and doesn't seem to be going anywhere and just doesn't seem to matter on any significant scale. That's not a formula for an epic, groundbreaking story...

But it's just not a very compelling story so far. And if you need to study up on all the details and assemble your own casebook of "hints and clues and possible foreshadowing interpretations," that's just bad storytelling.
Glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks this. I've read a lot of comics over the years, and so far there's really nothing in this one that I haven't seen before. And seen done better, with more style and panache. (And logic.)

It's Grant Morrison. If nothing else, I was looking for a few spine-tingling "holy shit!" moments in this somewhere. (His Animal Man and Doom Patrol and JLA back in the day always delivered a few of those.) So far, they haven't been there. He just seems to be throwing a lot of stuff at the wall to see what sticks.

Hatter developed the prototype of the mind-control helmets we see this issue. That's what he was saying to Turpin last issue ...
Looking back, I see you're right: he did say that. Thing is, we hadn't seen any mind-control helmets at that point in the story, so we didn't know what he was talking about. The helmets didn't show up until #3. I readily admit that several weeks and scores of comics later, I didn't remember that single dialogue balloon from #2 -- nor do I think I should have been expected to. It's bass-ackwards storytelling. There was no context to connect the one thing to the other... and this book just isn't interesting enough for me to be motivated to re-read the whole thing when each new issue comes out in order to make sense of the details.

For that matter, why does Darkseid's plan require mind-control helmets and spores and a computer virus? Obviously he's out to control everybody, but it's really not clear what his primary or preferred mechanism is for doing that, nor whether there are any relevant distinctions between the different mechanisms.

(And why would anyone with access to Apokoliptian-level technology, as seen in the lab in #2, have to turn to someone like Hatter to develop those helmets in the first place?)

It may be possible to explain all of these things in a way that makes sense. But so far, FC doesn't even seem to be trying.

As to the "elitism" debate that runs through- here's how I see it. FC is a bit more demanding than your average comic, sure. But there are plenty of legitimate reasons to dislike it or even hate it, and that doesn';t mean you don't "get" it, it doesn't mean you're not smart or you're not trying, it just means that you don't enjoy this type of writing and some do, and that's fine. Sure, some people are being dickish about it, but others are definitely being excruciatingly arrogant in their defence of the comic...
Fair enough. If you want to write it off as just a "tomato, tomahto" matter of taste, I can't argue with that. (I'm genuinely curious as to what you'd consider other examples of "this type of writing," though.)

Also, by the by, an avatar is literally a human being possessed by a god, so that's a distinction without a difference. This is something most of us had figured out during the confusion of the first two issues, but which Mary Marvel spells out for us in this issue.
No, an avatar is literally (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/avatar) "an incarnation in human form." Are you saying we should have understood that there really was a human "Boss Dark Side" on Earth, even before Darkseid possessed him? And even though we've never seen him in any other form, going back to his first appearance in Seven Soldiers? Personally, I had just assumed that the human embodiments were created from scratch using god-power of some sort.

[Kevinroc]

and why don't you actually address the reasons behind mary marvel's appearance? what should have the evil factory have made her look like instead? because this version seemed to be both shocking and slutty (in the vein of countdown) and at the same time monstrous and unappealing. the evil factory manipulating the flesh of the heroes goes back to kirby and needs to be represented in this definitive homage, so what way would you have done it?

I would have portrayed it in a manner similar to how Ellis portrayed Penance. Ridiculing the concept for how stupid it is.

Or Dan Slott's mocking of Penance quite openly in the Deadpool/ GLI special. (The comic in which Penance slams his head against the wall to prove "how deep" he is.)

[XPac]

Based on the solicitation for the up coming issues, it seems like the heroes that were recruited by Article X will be the heroes that are free from the Anti-Life equation.

Which looks like the current Teen Titans, the Outsiders, About half of the Justice Society and the Justice League, The Shadowpact,Supergirl and Green Arrow.

Wonder if Kingdom Come Superman will show up?

If they're using the internet, you'd think the Teen Titans would be one of the FIRST teams to be nailed by it.

[dotdotdot]

I would have portrayed it in a manner similar to how Ellis portrayed Penance. Ridiculing the concept for how stupid it is.

Or Dan Slott's mocking of Penance quite openly in the Deadpool/ GLI special. (The comic in which Penance slams his head against the wall to prove "how deep" he is.)

this post makes no sense. i'm familiar with the thunderbolts issue in question but you still aren't answering what makes any of this stupid, especially when it is completely justified by the plot in FC.

[lawman]

now that's valid, and is addressed in that video interview. what do you think of morrison's justifications for penning the story with this method?
Sorry, which interview? I've read a couple, but I haven't seen one on video. What "method" does he describe, and what are the justifications?

[dotdotdot]

Sorry, which interview? I've read a couple, but I haven't seen one on video. What "method" does he describe, and what are the justifications?

cbr front page. video interview.

[Tanjint]

i'm finding some aspects of final crisis trippy in a really good way.

for example, in Morrison's invisibiles he talks about liquid information.

the world being so interconnected that information becomes fluid like liquid, and this liquid is god. The universe is god waking up and becoming aware of itself, we are all one organism.

in final crisis 1, Metron gives anthro fire(as opposed to water) as knowledge and a weapon against the gods. it's kind of dichotomous and related to the liquid information idea in invisibles and that's tantalizingly trippy to me.

if information is becoming water....then what it is fire/knowledge in the context of this story?

reaching? Yeah, but it's the nature of trippy ideas I think.....



-T

[Deus ex Chris]

I would have portrayed it in a manner similar to how Ellis portrayed Penance. Ridiculing the concept for how stupid it is.

Or Dan Slott's mocking of Penance quite openly in the Deadpool/ GLI special. (The comic in which Penance slams his head against the wall to prove "how deep" he is.)
I think that comparison only goes so far. In Final Crisis, Mary's subversion isn't about making her cooler or edgier or giving her more angst or attempting to bring depth to her character--at least not at this particular juncture. This story is about the subversion of everyone. Mary was just the beginning. That's why we're seeing spin-offs titled Resist and Submit. The transformation of Penance was carried out with a different intent.

[Kevinroc]

I think that comparison only goes so far. In Final Crisis, Mary's subversion isn't about making her cooler or edgier or giving her more angst or attempting to bring depth to her character--at least not at this particular juncture. This story is about the subversion of everyone. Mary was just the beginning. That's why we're seeing spin-offs titled Resist and Submit. The transformation of Penance was carried out with a different intent.

The problem is we had a whole year of Mary being "subverted" and we're seeing Morrison take all those things that DC screwed up over the last year a step further. I know Countdown isn't necessarily Morrison's fault but he chose to dabble in those particularly unappealing stories. So yes, this feels like a continuation of Mary's story in Countdown, in which case I feel free to just mock the concept from here to Kingdom Come...

Morrison wasn't pushing the Mary story in a direction we hadn't already seen before except he gave her a ridiculous costume.

[Deus ex Chris]

The problem is we had a whole year of Mary being "subverted" and we're seeing Morrison take all those things that DC screwed up over the last year a step further. I know Countdown isn't necessarily Morrison's fault but he chose to dabble in those particularly unappealing stories. So yes, this feels like a continuation of Mary's story in Countdown, in which case I feel free to just mock the concept from here to Kingdom Come...

Morrison wasn't pushing the Mary story in a direction we hadn't already seen before except he gave her a ridiculous costume.
Countdown definitely isn't Morrison's fault. Also, I'm more inclined to believe that he didn't choose to dabble in those more unappealing stories, but rather those unappealing stories were DC dabbling in what Morrison had planned.

[dotdotdot]

The problem is we had a whole year of Mary being "subverted" and we're seeing Morrison take all those things that DC screwed up over the last year a step further. I know Countdown isn't necessarily Morrison's fault but he chose to dabble in those particularly unappealing stories. So yes, this feels like a continuation of Mary's story in Countdown, in which case I feel free to just mock the concept from here to Kingdom Come...

Morrison wasn't pushing the Mary story in a direction we hadn't already seen before except he gave her a ridiculous costume.

we aren't talking about countdown. mary here isn't the same as in countdown. forget it happened.

[mdg1]

Yeah, sure. Several.

On what do you base the assumption about Darkseid's orders? Why was the chair necessary for the firing of the bullet -- and if the chair's in the present, how far in the future was the bullet fired? How did Barry return to life? (And why for this, as opposed to any other crisis of the last 20 years?) If the Flashes know anything at all about the Black Racer, why would they be afraid of him? If Jay was safe stopping in the present, why didn't Wally and Barry do the same? If they thought he wasn't safe, why did they leave him behind and keep running? And that's all just off the top of my head.

Good questions. In order:

1) Primarily, because Libra reveals himself as the Herald of Apokalips this issue, and Darkseid IS Apokalips.

2) Because it can cross space and time, which means it can be used as a scope.

3) Good question. But as we didn't see it fired, it will likely happen in issue 4 or 5.

4) Somebody sent him? He asks the same question himself, which suggests it will be answered eventually.

5) It's possible that they weren't trying to escape the Racer, but find the shooter. This interpretation literally just occured to me.

[Kevinroc]

Countdown definitely isn't Morrison's fault. Also, I'm more inclined to believe that he didn't choose to dabble in those more unappealing stories, but rather those unappealing stories were DC dabbling in what Morrison had planned.

I know it isn't Morrison's fault but I'm definitely suffering from "evil Mary" burnout at this point. I feel the concept has worn itself out and Morrison did nothing to change my mind about it. The big thing Morrison did was show "mind-control" was involved and give Mary a ridiculous costume.

we aren't talking about countdown. mary here isn't the same as in countdown. forget it happened.

Except Countdown is where Mary became "evil!!!" Wonder Woman even mentions that she heard Mary had become "evil!!!" Fact is, Countdown ruined another element in Morrison's story (and not even a particularly good element in the first place).

[Magneto Rocks]

The problem is we had a whole year of Mary being "subverted" and we're seeing Morrison take all those things that DC screwed up over the last year a step further. I know Countdown isn't necessarily Morrison's fault but he chose to dabble in those particularly unappealing stories. So yes, this feels like a continuation of Mary's story in Countdown, in which case I feel free to just mock the concept from here to Kingdom Come...

Morrison wasn't pushing the Mary story in a direction we hadn't already seen before except he gave her a ridiculous costume.

All Morrison did was take Mary, make her MORE evil and MORE over the top than before. That's what she is- it's supposed to be over the top. It's the subversion of the purest, most innocent character of the DCU into the darkest. It's symbolic of the corruption of Darkseid, that he twists this pure, innocent symbol into a monstrosity which may as well be someone different.

Basically, it's extremely likely Morrison heard that Countdown made Mary evil and thought "The Symbolism there is too good to pass up!" and thus wrote this, which, to my mind, is a significent step up on what happened in Countdown- if only because it's no longer Mary acting of her own free will. Pretend Countdown never happened and this, as with all of Final Crisis, becomes so much easier- Mary was corrupted by the dark essence of Darkseid, end of.

[Samuraixsithlord]

5) It's possible that they weren't trying to escape the Racer, but find the shooter. This interpretation literally just occured to me.

The Racer wasn't after Barry. He was just following the bullet as it killed Orion so he could take his soul to the afterlife.

The Black Racer was never an evil god or a good god. He's neutral in their afairs unless they should attempt to stop him.

He's the one god even Darkseid is afraid of because his appearance heralds death

[Samuraixsithlord]

All Morrison did was take Mary, make her MORE evil and MORE over the top than before. That's what she is- it's supposed to be over the top. It's the subversion of the purest, most innocent character of the DCU into the darkest. It's symbolic of the corruption of Darkseid, that he twists this pure, innocent symbol into a monstrosity which may as well be someone different.

Basically, it's extremely likely Morrison heard that Countdown made Mary evil and thought "The Symbolism there is too good to pass up!" and thus wrote this, which, to my mind, is a significent step up on what happened in Countdown- if only because it's no longer Mary acting of her own free will. Pretend Countdown never happened and this, as with all of Final Crisis, becomes so much easier- Mary was corrupted by the dark essence of Darkseid, end of.

I think it also hinted at the possibility that Mary would be redeemed in FC. I took the scene with Freddy as fore shadowing thhat. Good thing Freddy decided to get off his ass and help the woman he supposedly loves so much.

But then again he did have important work to do, becoming the new Captain Marvel and all.

[Kevinroc]

All Morrison did was take Mary, make her MORE evil and MORE over the top than before. That's what she is- it's supposed to be over the top. It's the subversion of the purest, most innocent character of the DCU into the darkest. It's symbolic of the corruption of Darkseid, that he twists this pure, innocent symbol into a monstrosity which may as well be someone different.

Basically, it's extremely likely Morrison heard that Countdown made Mary evil and thought "The Symbolism there is too good to pass up!" and thus wrote this, which, to my mind, is a significent step up on what happened in Countdown- if only because it's no longer Mary acting of her own free will. Pretend Countdown never happened and this, as with all of Final Crisis, becomes so much easier- Mary was corrupted by the dark essence of Darkseid, end of.

Even as a basic concept, it still nets a "meh" from me because it's still a rather trite plot point that has been done to death. Morrison isn't breaking any new ground and the emotional distance his story had brought forth doesn't make it anymore interesting.

The scene where Mary killed a person just left me cold. It was supposed to be this big, shocking moment but it did nothing for me. Mary essentially killed a "red shirt." It doesn't help that I read Berserk, which takes the concept of over the top violent deaths and pushes them to levels that make you wonder how the series got published at all. Gantz also has a shocking level of violence that makes you wonder why anyone would agree to publish it.

This stuff? It's so... tame...

[dotdotdot]

Even as a basic concept, it still nets a "meh" from me because it's still a rather trite plot point that has been done to death. Morrison isn't breaking any new ground and the emotional distance his story had brought forth doesn't make it anymore interesting.

The scene where Mary killed a person just left me cold. It was supposed to be this big, shocking moment but it did nothing for me. Mary essentially killed a "red shirt." It doesn't help that I read Berserk, which takes the concept of over the top violent deaths and pushes them to levels that make you wonder how the series got published at all. Gantz also has a shocking level of violence that makes you wonder why anyone would agree to publish it.

This stuff? It's so... tame...

it wasn't supposed to be a big shocking moment. look at how much space it was given, not a full page. it would have been more shocking if countdown hadn't happened, but you're still placing weird expectations on this scene. the emotional bit was handled by the other atomic knight's shock at the situation. wonder woman didn't waste any time showing the reader how shocked she was, it wasn't supposed to be the major scene you envision.

[AlistairCrane]

Oh yay Catwoman! It's about time she appeared (even if it's just one page) in one of DC's big events.

[Kevinroc]

it wasn't supposed to be a big shocking moment. look at how much space it was given, not a full page. it would have been more shocking if countdown hadn't happened, but you're still placing weird expectations on this scene. the emotional bit was handled by the other atomic knight's shock at the situation. wonder woman didn't waste any time showing the reader how shocked she was, it wasn't supposed to be the major scene you envision.

It's still a rather poorly done scene in which a brain-washed character kills a red-shirt as another red-shirt mourns. There's really no point to the whole bit, especially if it wasn't meant to stress how "evil" Mary was.

[dotdotdot]

It's still a rather poorly done scene in which a brain-washed character kills a red-shirt as another red-shirt mourns. There's really no point to the whole bit, especially if it wasn't meant to stress how "evil" Mary was.

my god i'm not going to explain the point of it to you again
reread some posts

[Magneto Rocks]

It's still a rather poorly done scene in which a brain-washed character kills a red-shirt as another red-shirt mourns. There's really no point to the whole bit, especially if it wasn't meant to stress how "evil" Mary was.

That's a minor, minor part of the sequence. The purpose of it is merely to re-emphasise how great Darkseid's powers are corruption are, that he can so utterly corrupt someone so pure and innocent. Was it the point of the panel or two spent on it? Yes. Was it the point of the scene? Not even close.

[DarKye]

For that matter, why does Darkseid's plan require mind-control helmets and spores and a computer virus? Obviously he's out to control everybody, but it's really not clear what his primary or preferred mechanism is for doing that, nor whether there are any relevant distinctions between the different mechanisms.

(And why would anyone with access to Apokoliptian-level technology, as seen in the lab in #2, have to turn to someone like Hatter to develop those helmets in the first place?)

It may be possible to explain all of these things in a way that makes sense. But so far, FC doesn't even seem to be trying.

Darkseid doesn't have Apokoliptian-level technology anymore.

If you're talking about the Evil Factory, that's Command-D being taken over by the Evil Gods, and this issue establishes pretty clearly that's an US facility. Nothing really out of this world.
Sure they probably ARE bringing in some Apokoliptian concepts/knowledge to the table, but they are generally grabbing Earth-based things and modifying them for their purposes; IE: Command-D, the hats, the Interwebs and even the hosts.

[Magneto Rocks]

Sure they probably ARE bringing in some Apokoliptian concepts/knowledge to the table, but they are generally grabbing Earth-based things and modifying them for their purposes; IE: Command-D, the hats, the Interwebs and even the hosts.

This is actually interesting in that its a theme consistent with Kirby's original work, where the Evil Gods could not create NEW things, the Evil Factory was a perversion of the Project, who they stole their technology from. It's clearly Kirby playing with the old concept (Consistent actually with much religious- including CHRISTIAN- ideology)that Evil cannot create, it can only pervert what good creates, or destroy it. Another piece of symbolism Morrison has taken to the next level, it's quite astonishing just how much of the Fourth World he has replicated, literally or symbolically. (The Justifiers are another example of that.)

[Jack Zodiac]

my god i'm not going to explain the point of it to you again
reread some posts

I will.

Kevin, it's not about Mary. It's about scope. If Mary Marvel can be corrupted, what hope do other heroes have? The Marvels are the most pure, innocent characters in comics, and one of them just tore a person in half. Morrison isn't writing about these characters, he's writing ideas, and these characters just happen to be the little parts that move these ideas. One of his ideas is that good and evil are just forces in a state of struggle which, until now, has predominantly had good the victor. Now, it's the other way around, and the little pieces that move this idea forward are Mary Marvel and Wonder Woman, two emblems of beauty and purity and good corrupted.

Which made a powerful, "oh, shit" last page that was perfect. How !@#$ed is the universe when Wonder Woman is corrupted by Anti-Life?

[Slyfer]

It's Official Grant Morrison has Fanboys arguing over a 32 pg. comic once again



'Nuff Said

[Jack Zodiac]

It's Official (INSERT ANY FAMOUS COMIC WRITER HERE) has Fanboys arguing over a 32 pg. comic once again



'Nuff Said

Be less constructive.

[Slyfer]

LOL I bet if it was anyone else writing this book in the same exact way the reactions would be different, we all know Grant Smokes Alien Herb when he writes, ask Mr. Ellis he will give you the graphic outline of the floating clouds and Unicorns in Grants room .

[Dorsai]

So far, this series really isn't having a great impact on me. #3 wasn't bad but I'm definitely not getting out of this series what may have been intended. The story so far just doesn't seem all that compelling. If one wasn't already interested in some of these characters, there has been very little to make a reader invested and interested in them.

It may be that this story came at a bad time but I am getting very jaded on the way this almalgamation of the multiverse, time travel, and the Fourth World is being handled.

[Paul McEnery]

The scene where Mary killed a person just left me cold. It was supposed to be this big, shocking moment but it did nothing for me. Mary essentially killed a "red shirt."

And this, I think, is one of the points Morrison is making: that we've been desensitized to violence. We're introduced to a character, the character is suddenly killed, her brother is shocked and mourning, but us? We're straight into the violence with Diana -- and it doesn't matter anyway!

The death of the redshirt IS irrelevant. What Mary tells us: your standard superhero tactics do not work; you've been fighting the wrong war with the wrong weapons. Here is the weapon you should have prepared yourself against: and now you're the vector for it.

It's also worth noting that all this is a callback to Zenith, where we also saw the possession of superheroes by beasties from beyond. Memory is not serving as to which character Mary Marvel is calling back to, here -- this may be a cliche, but it's Grant's own cliche.

The big point is that evil is winning because Darkseid has finally got -- and is deploying -- the anti-life equation. We've been told we should worry about this happening, and now we see why. Darkseid's been making his list and checking it twice, and now everyone get's their anti-Christmas presents -- bam, bam, bam, surgical strike, no war, no tension, just utter defeat.

That lack of engaged catharsis? That's how it's supposed to be.

[Kevinroc]

I will.

Kevin, it's not about Mary. It's about scope. If Mary Marvel can be corrupted, what hope do other heroes have? The Marvels are the most pure, innocent characters in comics, and one of them just tore a person in half. Morrison isn't writing about these characters, he's writing ideas, and these characters just happen to be the little parts that move these ideas. One of his ideas is that good and evil are just forces in a state of struggle which, until now, has predominantly had good the victor. Now, it's the other way around, and the little pieces that move this idea forward are Mary Marvel and Wonder Woman, two emblems of beauty and purity and good corrupted.

Which made a powerful, "oh, shit" last page that was perfect. How !@#$ed is the universe when Wonder Woman is corrupted by Anti-Life?

At this point, the serialization of super hero comics proves to be a weakness of Final Crisis. At no point should it be doubted that Wonder Woman (and the others) won't reclaim themselves from Darkseid's control. How screwed was Wally in the Cobalt Blue arc when almost every other speedster throughout history was being controlled by the villain? How screwed was Ultimate Reed Richards when Thanos remade Earth in his image and took over every super hero on Earth? (And these are just recent examples I thought of off the top of my head.)

I don't feel Morrison is truly breaking any new ground with this. And the only idea I have truly liked in the mini was the gun that fired bullets through time but not space.

Everything else feels like a retread of other stories. Some of which were/ are, quite frankly, better than this one.

[Super Buddies Forever]

I think the irony is that this is the one DC crossover event that needs tie-ins with the monthlies. There's barely any sense of scope or consequence, but there would be if we could spend some more time with the heroes and see things from their perspective.

Of course, having the story appear in-universe with no buildup (despite a year long weekly series with that purpose) didn't help either.

[ruppan]

I agree that Countdown has mucked up FC, but you can't blame Morrison for that or claim he had a responsibility to speak to the CD writers. The entire blame of CD should be laid on Dan DiDio's shoulders.

Why not?

Even if he didn't have a contractual obligation or monetary reason to talk to the CD editor or writers, as an employee of DC, he has an obligation to his company to help them put out the best product possible. If that means he does a little more than what his job duties specify, so be it. In typical work environments this happens all the time, and when it doesn't happen that is a sure sign of a bad company that puts out bad product.

Also, I would have expected Morrison to go to lengths to protect the integrity of his story by making sure only quality material is associated with it. I think the majority of artists are obsessed with protecting their art, and something is wrong, at least to me, when they don't. Morrison should have been keeping those guys updated, if he had material to provide them. I can not see any reasonable excuse for the writers or editor of FC to turn down his input or participation. They would have to know that the disjointed nature of the stories would make them look much worse than Morrison.

Lastly, you can blame Didio in a general sort of way for anything bad that goes on at DC. But, what could he do in this specific instance? How could he have gotten the story out of Morrison's head and into the hands of the CD editor and writers without Morrison's involvement? That's what we're talking about here!

Other than cancelling CD at inception for poor organization, I don't see what Didio could have done otherwise.

[siberia77]

This issue was as unbelieveably awful as the previous two.
SHAMEFULLY POOR

[lawman]

cbr front page. video interview.
Yeesh, that's an eleven-minute-long interview you're asking me to watch. Can't you just cut to the chase and tell me: what are the "methods" and "justifications" Morisson describes?

[lawman]

Morrison isn't writing about these characters, he's writing ideas, and these characters just happen to be the little parts that move these ideas. One of his ideas is that good and evil are just forces in a state of struggle which, until now, has predominantly had good the victor. Now, it's the other way around, and the little pieces that move this idea forward are Mary Marvel and Wonder Woman...
You've just put your finger on one of the problems that many of us are complaining about. The book seems like nothing more than a vehicle for Morrison's big idea; the characters, nothing more than arbitrary pawns to move around as required. It may be conceptually interesting, but it's not working as a story.

Back in the '80s, Alan Moore did an epic story in Swamp Thing about good and evil as forces in a state of struggle -- "American Gothic (http://www.dcuguide.com/who.php?name=americangothic)." It was philosophical and profound... but it was also deeply grounded (dare I say "rooted"?) in the experiences of its characters. It was incredibly moving and exciting, and I still remember it fondly 20-plus years later. This isn't even in the same ballpark.

[echopryme]

This issue was as unbelieveably awful as the previous two.
SHAMEFULLY POOR


I would agree, but frankly...

I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT'S GOING ON.



Why is Question with Frankenstein in the beginning, and then they capture her a couple panels away to ostensively join up with Frankenstein?!?! Shilo Norman is a re-born Mister Miracle?! Then why in the hell was Scott Free in the Seven Soldiers series?!?!

WTF is going on in this series?

[Paul McEnery]

Yeesh, that's an eleven-minute-long interview you're asking me to watch. Can't you just cut to the chase and tell me: what are the "methods" and "justifications" Morisson describes?

I think we can safely say that someone who doesn't want to watch a creator who's known for giving entertaining interviews talk for 11 minutes about his creation isn't that interested.

[lawman]

I think we can safely say that someone who doesn't want to watch a creator who's known for giving entertaining interviews talk for 11 minutes about his creation isn't that interested.
Look, not only have I read the comics, but I've already read multiple interviews with Morrison talking about the comics. (It also happens that I'm not generally fond of online video clips; they're usually a waste of time.) I asked another poster a direct question about what he described as a "justification" for how the story's being told; it would only be polite for him to answer the question rather than just pointing me to a video of another interview. Fair enough?