Final Crisis #3 Spoilers!!!

[Magneto Rocks]

CURSE you and your double posting stealing what was rightfully mine, Jack! :tongue:

...Mokkari! Launch the e-mail, targetting Jack Zodiac!

[Will.S]

Also, 1,000.

*pump kicks this thread in the balls*
And with that, goodnight everyone.

[Harding Prime]

We did it Will!!!!

It's hard to tell the L's from the exclamation points....oh well.

[Will.S]

We did it Will!!!!

It's hard to tell the L's from the exclamation points....oh well.
LOL.

Harding baby, lets celebrate!

[Paul Newell]

Blah blah jest blah blah Shirley.

And no, this forum, and in fact the Internet community does not make up even a fraction of the actual comic book reading fanbase. And even in that tiny fraction, it isn't regarded quite as well as you think. Saunter on over to Comm and take a poll.
Soooo...This forum and the internet community doesn't make a fraction of the comic reading fanbase.....But the Comm Forum does?

Plus, for a comic series that isn't well regarded, it sure is amazing how it stays continuously in print....

[dotdotdot]

Soooo...This forum and the internet community doesn't make a fraction of the comic reading fanbase.....But the Comm Forum does?

Plus, for a comic series that isn't well regarded, it sure is amazing how it stays continuously in print....

do you really want a list of other things that continuously stay in print but completely suck? because i don't think you want to pursue this.

[Paul Newell]

Why not? I'm all up for lining up some bannings.

Or we could just say we don't think anybody here wants to pursue this....OK?

[Jack Zodiac]

Soooo...This forum and the internet community doesn't make a fraction of the comic reading fanbase.....But the Comm Forum does?

That's silly as hell, and you know it. The online comic community makes up a very small fraction of the actual comic community, but even here, it isn't as highly regarded as that guy seems to think it is. I point towards Comm because it's full of older readers, readers who've been reading comics for decades before Crisis on Infinite Earths, who don't all remember the book being such a gem.

[$5 Milkshake]

I FINALLY found a copy of the issue today

And it was ok. I think my problem with the series is, there's TOO MUCH for me to love! There are so many bits that have me extremely interested, but it quickly jumps from scene to scene. There's just too much content, Final Crisis' cup runneth over.

It's almost like they need to release the issues double sized, or twice a month.

[Paul Newell]

And yet you're saying to ignore a "fraction of the comic community" and listen to a fraction of the "fraction of the comic community" because they know the truth.

OK now that's just "silly as hell" and is the last straw.

Listen up everybody. Words of foreboding.

I'm a fan of Grant Morrison. I'm also a fan of the original Crisis. I've studied comic book structure. I've DRAWN comic books. I've studied the industry and been interested in its history, both the industry and continuity. But you don't see me trying to beat everyone else into submission because of it.

Fan-wankery or critical wankery, it's all just wankers to me.

So here's the line in the sand.

On the boards I moderate, nobody knows better than anybody else. Nobody is better than anybody else. There is no elite and plebes. To me you all look like a bunch of schoolkids squabbling in the playground about who can learn the ABC faster.

I don't care how much you, or the other guy, knows about comic books, critically, tastefully or continuity-wise. It's no excuse for the snark, snide comments, outright rudeness and insults because neither one of you will show the other side the respect you THINK you deserve.

I'm tired of deleting and warning....Now we're at banning stage. I have a list of usual suspects, from both the "elitists" and the "ignoramus'"...And their time is limited here unless they start respecting others.

[Jack Zodiac]

And yet you're saying to ignore a "fraction of the comic community" and listen to a fraction of the "fraction of the comic community" because they know the truth.

Not at all. I'm saying, if you're going to evaluate something based on reader response, do it based on all responses, not just the positive ones that back your own opinion. Crisis may be popular with certain fans, but there are at least as many other fans (who happen to post more in Comm than on the DC forums, and c'mon, the guy was specifically talking about the Internet community, and this comic book community in particular) that don't remember it being such a good story. I'm not saying he should ignore one side, I'm just saying he shouldn't ignore the other.

[Harding Prime]

LOL.

Harding baby, lets celebrate!

I'm down for the get down, whatever's hood! :cool: :biggrin:

And yet you're saying to ignore a "fraction of the comic community" and listen to a fraction of the "fraction of the comic community" because they know the truth.

OK now that's just "silly as hell" and is the last straw.

Listen up everybody. Words of foreboding.

I'm a fan of Grant Morrison. I'm also a fan of the original Crisis. I've studied comic book structure. I've DRAWN comic books. I've studied the industry and been interested in its history, both the industry and continuity. But you don't see me trying to beat everyone else into submission because of it.

Fan-wankery or critical wankery, it's all just wankers to me.

So here's the line in the sand.

On the boards I moderate, nobody knows better than anybody else. Nobody is better than anybody else. There is no elite and plebes. To me you all look like a bunch of schoolkids squabbling in the playground about who can learn the ABC faster.

I don't care how much you, or the other guy, knows about comic books, critically, tastefully or continuity-wise. It's no excuse for the snark, snide comments, outright rudeness and insults because neither one of you will show the other side the respect you THINK you deserve.

I'm tired of deleting and warning....Now we're at banning stage. I have a list of usual suspects, from both the "elitists" and the "ignoramus'"...And their time is limited here unless they start respecting others.

I don't know which category I fall under, but I think it's a good call and overdue. I think everyone's opinion should be, at the least, respected. I have gotten in trouble before for being disrespected and retaliating, but now I am really trying to be good. :smile:

I know your the mod here, but we are 1,000 posts deep, maybe I missed it, but I didn't get your take on this issue?

[Paul Newell]

Not at all. I'm saying, if you're going to evaluate something based on reader response, do it based on all responses, not just the positive ones that back your own opinion. Crisis may be popular with certain fans, but there are at least as many other fans (who happen to post more in Comm than on the DC forums, and c'mon, the guy was specifically talking about the Internet community, and this comic book community in particular) that don't remember it being such a good story. I'm not saying he should ignore one side, I'm just saying he shouldn't ignore the other.
I don't know how he could since this thread showcases both good and bad opinions of it. It appears to me you were telling him specifically to ignore both sides and go to another board where he would only see one side.

[Paul McEnery]

I don't know how he could since this thread showcases both good and bad opinions of it. It appears to me you were telling him specifically to ignore both sides and go to another board where he would only see one side.

I believe it would be fair to say that COIE has an appeal to people who like that sort of thing, but wouldn't find much of an audience outside of it; and that even many of the people who like that sort of thing find that time has exposed its flaws, especially as it's packaged as something it was never intended to be.

COIE fails as a graphic novel because it isn't a graphic novel. It genuinely was an "event", and the "novel" is just the central strand of that event. Events are about the tie-ins, the big changes to the universe, and in the case of COIE, the fact that no such event had ever been done before.

In that sense, it was as radical as the first attempts at trying to do coherent universes, and the payoff to those events. And it was pioneering in its scope, but at the same time lacking the sophistication that, to some extent, we've actually learnt as both readers and creators for getting to see where it worked and where it didn't; in that sense, its failure is its success.

The irony is that, as COIE was saying goodbye to a more innocent age of superhero comics, the writers who were going to be bringing in the next age were already writing the real replacement. DC's launch of the Legends titles, and so on, isn't what we remember from that time, which is more the titles like Zenith/Animal Man, Signal to Noise/Sandman, Miracleman/Swamp Thing, Troubled Souls/Hitman.

In other words, the new blood was from outside the superhero world, and outside the country even. And the clash of those two sensibilities gave us something very different.

So COIE, as trailblazing as it was, is always going to be something of importance to dyed-in-the-wool fans of the genre in that time and place, but much less so to people who either think outside of that genre or that sensibility.

[Matt Algren]

And yet you're saying to ignore a "fraction of the comic community" and listen to a fraction of the "fraction of the comic community" because they know the truth.

OK now that's just "silly as hell" and is the last straw.

Listen up everybody. Words of foreboding.

I'm a fan of Grant Morrison. I'm also a fan of the original Crisis. I've studied comic book structure. I've DRAWN comic books. I've studied the industry and been interested in its history, both the industry and continuity. But you don't see me trying to beat everyone else into submission because of it.

Fan-wankery or critical wankery, it's all just wankers to me.

So here's the line in the sand.

On the boards I moderate, nobody knows better than anybody else. Nobody is better than anybody else. There is no elite and plebes. To me you all look like a bunch of schoolkids squabbling in the playground about who can learn the ABC faster.

I don't care how much you, or the other guy, knows about comic books, critically, tastefully or continuity-wise. It's no excuse for the snark, snide comments, outright rudeness and insults because neither one of you will show the other side the respect you THINK you deserve.

I'm tired of deleting and warning....Now we're at banning stage. I have a list of usual suspects, from both the "elitists" and the "ignoramus'"...And their time is limited here unless they start respecting others.Well...sometimes one person does know better than another person. Unless you're suggesting that all opinions are equal, which they aren't (http://www.shortpacked.com/comics/20070502opinions.png).

And if everybody just looks like kids in the playground, maybe it's time to step back a bit. He was suggesting that someone consider a different viewpoint, that's all.

[Calybos]

I think that's at least part of what some people dislike about the book.

And it's an entirely valid criticism. No sneering, please. Some people enjoy adventure stories, not philosophy in graphic form.

[lawman]

...COIE fails as a graphic novel because it isn't a graphic novel. It genuinely was an "event", and the "novel" is just the central strand of that event. Events are about the tie-ins, the big changes to the universe, and in the case of COIE, the fact that no such event had ever been done before. ...

So COIE, as trailblazing as it was, is always going to be something of importance to dyed-in-the-wool fans of the genre in that time and place, but much less so to people who either think outside of that genre or that sensibility.
As much as you and I have argued in this thread, I basically agree with what you've written here. It is indeed a fair assessment.

I would only add that it seems more than likely that most regular readers of mainstream comics today, and certainly most who would take the trouble to post on this forum, are indeed "fans of the genre" who "like that sort of thing." Thus my initial statement about fondness for COIE, which I honestly didn't expect Jack to argue against so strenuously.

[dotdotdot]

And it's an entirely valid criticism. No sneering, please. Some people enjoy adventure stories, not philosophy in graphic form.

true. it's too bad that the high concepts buried in straightforward superhero books are turning people off, even though they are optional gems. their mere presence really doesn't sit well with lots of readers (not that this is a criticism of any in this thread necessarily). it's as if this medium isn't supposed to deal with such things, which really limits its potential.

but at the same time, this week's ghost rider had red zombie death ninjas and eyeball-heads with repulsor rays, and was in fact awesome. as opposed to say, matt fraction writing a nightcrawler solo story that keeps mentioning walter benjamin for some odd reason.

[Jack Zodiac]

As much as you and I have argued in this thread, I basically agree with what you've written here. It is indeed a fair assessment.

I would only add that it seems more than likely that most regular readers of mainstream comics today, and certainly most who would take the trouble to post on this forum, are indeed "fans of the genre" who "like that sort of thing." Thus my initial statement about fondness for COIE, which I honestly didn't expect Jack to argue against so strenuously.

That was strenuous? And I wound up "arguing" specifics with Paul more than arguing the point itself. Which stands. Of course most fans who'd "like that sort of thing" would like that sort of thing, but not all fans of superhero comics like that sort of thing, and that's the point. That's why some of us are enjoying Final Crisis and other aren't, because it isn't that sort of thing, it's something different. So twenty years from now, it'll face the same scrutiny as Crisis on Infinite Earths, where people will remember it and like it because it wasn't that sort of thing, and others will regard it as a confusing mess.

[Angelo2113]

I'm starting to really like this series. At first it was like "what the heck is going on?", but then after awhile and after a few issues its pretty interesting.

Nazi Supergirl was really interesting to see on how the barriers between Earths are falling apart.

The monitor Zillo Valla talking to Superman setting up Superman Beyond was very well done.

Barry Allen is back...that's all I have to say about that. (YES!) I wish he was able to save Orion, my favorite New God is...dead :frown:

Mary Marvel flesh farm make-over...very nice. Shows the "dark side'' of Mary Marvel. And I think Wonder Woman is wearing a mask, I dont think her face actually changed into a demon-face.

And if Libra is ONLY the prophet...I can't wait to see what the Master of All Evil is able to do.

Honestly, this story so far has actually convinced me that "Evil Won". I am really anxious to see what happens next...!

[Paul McEnery]

I'm starting to really like this series. At first it was like "what the heck is going on?", but then after awhile and after a few issues its pretty interesting.

Nazi Supergirl was really interesting to see on how the barriers between Earths are falling apart.

The monitor Zillo Valla talking to Superman setting up Superman Beyond was very well done.

Barry Allen is back...that's all I have to say about that. (YES!) I wish he was able to save Orion, my favorite New God is...dead :frown:

Mary Marvel flesh farm make-over...very nice. Shows the "dark side'' of Mary Marvel. And I think Wonder Woman is wearing a mask, I dont think her face actually changed into a demon-face.

And if Libra is ONLY the prophet...I can't wait to see what the Master of All Evil is able to do.

Honestly, this story so far has actually convinced me that "Evil Won". I am really anxious to see what happens next...!

I think I didn't remember to note this one:

Flesh Factory = Body Shop.

When I got that one, I giggled a fair bit.

[Samuraixsithlord]

Barry Allen is back...that's all I have to say about that. (YES!) I wish he was able to save Orion, my favorite New God is...dead :frown:

Don't worry his soul is probably hiddden in a mortal body.

Mary Marvel flesh farm make-over...very nice. Shows the "dark side'' of Mary Marvel. And I think Wonder Woman is wearing a mask, I dont think her face actually changed into a demon-face.

I'd like to see if Mary willingly joined Darkseid like she seemed to do in countdown, or if she was cptured and forced. Maybe they could do another Trials of Shazam maxi-series dealing with Mary and her road to redemption.

I also think Diana is all Orc faced. Fits into Darkseid's mentality to take something beautiful and turn it ugly.

And if Libra is ONLY the prophet...I can't wait to see what the Master of All Evil is able to do.

I know most people think it's Darkseid, but i've got money on it being Mandrakk