Does Wonder Woman's Costume Undermine Her Portrayal As A Strong Female Character?

[Alan2099]

It may be iconic but it still looks silly and does undermine her.
It's a superhero costume. 99% of them look silly.


Well, then I guess you're not listening. Nobody wears a Wonder Woman costume because they see a symbol of strength.
What superhero costume do people wear because it's a symbol of strength? Personally, when I think symbol of strength, spandex isn't exactly what comes to mind. Superheroes at their most basic are rather campy to a certain degree. You can right them in mature themed stories, replace their costumes with leather body suits, kill people left and right, and make them angst so much the reader gets depressed just by looking at the cover, but there's always going to be a certain sillyness involved with the idea of superheroes.

I find the people that tend to argue superheroes aren't serious enough are people that probably should have put superheroes comics down and walked away from them years ago. Don't try to force superheroes into something they aren't supposed to be just because you've gotten old and stopped having fun with the ideas.

If you're looking for serious literature, you might want to pick up something that doesn't show people in masks and spandex punching each other in the face while flying twenty feet up in the air.

[Titan76]

But what if they changed WW's costume to look more like this...

http://hallofheroes.free.fr/Images/UltimateDC/wonderwoman.jpg

Would that be more tolerable?
Sure if Victoria's Secret is producing the movie.


What superhero costume do people wear because it's a symbol of strength?
Superman.

[Alan2099]

What superhero costume do people wear because it's a symbol of strength?
Brightly colored tights, has his own initial on his chest, wears a cape and underwear outside his pants and you aren't arguing that people wear that because it's camp?

[Pixie_Solanas]

It would be if not for the fact that for years DC has bent over backwards making sure we know that Batman, Robin, Nightwing, Green Arrow, and all of the other gangster and ninja fighting vigilantes are wearing bullet resistant, fire-retardant flexible body armor, while Balck Canary wears ... stockings. Makes her look like a bit of a twit.

Aside from Batman, I didn't know that about the rest of the folks. And I don't particularly give a doodie, either. Men in body-covering kevlar, women in fishnets - nothing at all wrong with that.

[princesa]

When it comes to not just Wonder Woman but other strong females (Storm, Ms Marvel...) you have to just suspend belief other the absurdity of their costumes. You're fighting with the most ill-fit for battle, breast about to pop out, gear ever. But its for the hormonal teen (and not teen) audience.

[carabas]

When it comes to not just Wonder Woman but other strong females (Storm, Ms Marvel...) you have to just suspend belief other the absurdity of their costumes. You're fighting with the most ill-fit for battle, breast about to pop out, gear ever. But its for the hormonal teen (and not teen) audience.What? The situation sucks, but it isn't likely to improve, so try not to be too bothered by it?
What sort of wussy, defeatist attitude is that?

[Xybernauts]

Aside from Batman, I didn't know that about the rest of the folks. And I don't particularly give a doodie, either. Men in body-covering kevlar, women in fishnets - nothing at all wrong with that.

Was that sarcasm? I can't tell.


Sure if Victoria's Secret is producing the movie.

I admit this costume is probably more sexualized then WW original costume, but it does fix the flag problem we've been talking about. One possible solution is to give her a cape to cover her body most of the time. Kinda like that picture of 300 I posted earlier. Another solution is to extend the amount of skin the body covers. But I think it's a great costume. The idea of using metal star shaped bolts to replace the star spangled panties was a really creative idea, I actually think it might be better then WW's current costume.


What? The situation sucks, but it isn't likely to improve, so try not to be too bothered by it?
What sort of wussy, defeatist attitude is that?

Don't get me wrong, I do sympathize with you to some degree, but if you take the superhero costume from the superhero, then you destroy a integral part of their identity. The thing about WW is that she has magic superpowers.

The reason Superman pulls off his costume is because he has superpowers. Batman needs his tech based angle for his costume because he has no powers. If she was just a superpowerless woman in that WW costume, someone might laugh at her, but if you take the same woman in the same costume and see her flying with superstrength and deflecting bullets; you take a step back and say, hey, anyone with that level of skill can wear whatever they want. Some people inspired by her feats, in the context of a WW story might even be compelled to emulate the way she dresses.

Anyway

[Robo Ape]

I suppose because the costume is seen as 'iconic' by many that's why DC haven't sought to 'fix' it any point recently.

Yes we have seen her in alternative versions but only for very short periods.

It doesn't help as far as the costume and her portrayal is concerned by the way certain current & recent past artists have drawn the character, I think you know who I mean when I mention this.

[Pól Rua]

Does Wonder Woman's costume undermine her portrayal as one of the DCU's strongest female characters?

Shouldn't she be wearing something a bit more practical, after all they changed Catwoman's costume to make it seem more practical & less glamour. WW has worn better costumes such as her armour, than her traditional look. So is it time foe a permanent change?

Practical is not an issue as much as it gives a conflicting and confusing view of the character?

Is she about female equality, then why is she dressed in a bustiere and french cut knickers?
If she's a Greek Warrior woman, why is she dressed in patriotic colours?

As much as it's iconic, her costume is, quite frankly, laughable.

[Pól Rua]

It's a superhero costume. 99% of them look silly.

Yeah, but they at least make THEMATIC sense.

Robin has a ludicrous costume, but it makes sense thematically. Drawing designs from Peter Pan (child/youth), Errol Flynn's Robin Hood (laughing, swashbuckling defender of justice), a circus acrobat (bright and colourful), and a Robin (red tunic).

Wonder Woman's tiara makes sense. She's a princess. The eagle can make sense. Many civilizations have used the eagle as a symbol of power, nobility and bravery.
The patriotic colour scheme and star-spangled underpants? not so much.

[Pól Rua]

It's a superhero costume. 99% of them look silly.
What superhero costume do people wear because it's a symbol of strength? Personally, when I think symbol of strength, spandex isn't exactly what comes to mind.

Yes, but what about a shield? Shields represent strength and resilence. A defender. Superman wears one on his chest. Shields are also used in heraldry to let people know who you are. Superman has his initial on his chest.
This, along with his bare head, tells people that here is a guy who is up-front, who lets you know who he is.

You ever heard of power-dressing? Bright, primary coloured ties and so forth? Denoting strength?
Yeah, Red and Blue. Strong primary colours. Red is the colour of power, activity, action. Blue is the colour of the sky. Oh yeah, and a red and gold thing in the centre of the sky? The sun.
There's another piece of symbolism for the chest logo.


Superheroes at their most basic are rather campy to a certain degree. You can right them in mature themed stories, replace their costumes with leather body suits, kill people left and right, and make them angst so much the reader gets depressed just by looking at the cover, but there's always going to be a certain sillyness involved with the idea of superheroes.
None of which has anything to do with whether a costume is an effective symbol or not.


I find the people that tend to argue superheroes aren't serious enough are people that probably should have put superheroes comics down and walked away from them years ago. Don't try to force superheroes into something they aren't supposed to be just because you've gotten old and stopped having fun with the ideas.

If you're looking for serious literature, you might want to pick up something that doesn't show people in masks and spandex punching each other in the face while flying twenty feet up in the air.
Seriously, where is this coming from?
None of this has ANYTHING to do with whether a character's costume is well designed or not. Visual design is important. It communicates what a character is about in quick, easy cues.

Superman's costume tells us that this character is active, powerful, forthright, has great presence, honest, strong and a protector.
Batman's costume tells us that he is sinister, dark, shadowy, sneaky, scary and powerful.
Wonder Woman's costume tells us that this character is a patriotic bikini cowgirl.

[Pól Rua]

Though I do have a question? Why is it that when the idea of Superman's costume being changed, or Batman's or any of the other classics comes up the thread only goes 4 or 5 pages at most, but Wonder woman costume discussions always turn into these long drawn out pointless arguments that go on for page after page?

Because Superman and Batman both have well-designed looks and characters, while Wonder Woman has a poorly-designed costume and a character that changes with every writer that takes on the task.

[HellFrost]

So what exactly should she fight in?

I personally love her costume but, I'm curious to hear what others think she should wear.

[FemGeek]

While I do think that WWs costume is very iconic and changing it would be difficult, I do find it somewhat ridiculous. She is wrapped up in a bathing suit made from a flag, and matching accsessories. I like the character, she someone you get very little bs from, and she is a strong female role model. However, I do think that her costume is laughable.
she also has zero protection, she might as well be naked. Yeah, shes pretty much invulnerable, but she has faced plenty of foes who have made her hurt. The openness of the costume is just asking for all kinds of death. The main kill points are completley unprotected- face, neck, head, coller, armpit, inner thighs. All the other Amazons are ok though. I always found it odd that a trained warrior would flounce off in something like that.

[Robo Ape]

So what exactly should she fight in?

I personally love her costume but, I'm curious to hear what others think she should wear.

Their has already been a number of suggestions on this point further up the thread.

A more Xena like costume would be a step in the right direction, however small, at least her costume had an element of proper armour about it.

[Flâneur]

So what exactly should she fight in?

I personally love her costume but, I'm curious to hear what others think she should wear.
Donna's Wonder Woman costume was quite cool:
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/188/snapshot20081113010759nf5.png

[FemGeek]

Yeah Donnas costume was quite good; more 'I'm a warrior', less 'aim here'.

[celticguy]

So what exactly should she fight in?

I personally love her costume but, I'm curious to hear what others think she should wear.


something along the lines of Donna Troy would be good. She could use the same colors she has now.

[Death by Mime]

Hm, I don't think anyone's posted this link yet. http://www.tencentticker.com/projectrooftop/2007/11/26/wonder-woman-wardrobe-war-winners/
A lot of them are more of alternate universe costumes, but there are some interesting ideas in there. My favorite has to be Ming Doyle's.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk140/marquis_samedi/Ming-Doyle.jpg

Spandex base ('cause she's a superhero after all) with cloth drapery and leather layered over it. It might need to be simplified further, but I think something like this could be fantastic.

[pariah-1972]

Hm, I don't think anyone's posted this link yet. http://www.tencentticker.com/projectrooftop/2007/11/26/wonder-woman-wardrobe-war-winners/
A lot of them are more of alternate universe costumes, but there are some interesting ideas in there. My favorite has to be Ming Doyle's.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk140/marquis_samedi/Ming-Doyle.jpg

Spandex base ('cause she's a superhero after all) with cloth drapery and leather layered over it. It might need to be simplified further, but I think something like this could be fantastic.That doesn't look like it fits her very well..

[dreyga2000]

Their has already been a number of suggestions on this point further up the thread.

A more Xena like costume would be a step in the right direction, however small, at least her costume had an element of proper armour about it.

Like this???

http://pics.livejournal.com/schmevil/pic/00071f72

Minus the blindfold and gloves of course...

[Oblivion87]

Like this???

http://pics.livejournal.com/schmevil/pic/00071f72

Minus the blindfold and gloves of course...

I like that one it seems more practical.

I don't really think her costume under minds what she stands for, I guess it depends on how its drawn/depicted. Although I wouldn't mine if she and a few other heros received costume updates.

[Robo Ape]

Like this???

http://pics.livejournal.com/schmevil/pic/00071f72

Minus the blindfold and gloves of course...

Yeah that's the idea. What's the betting the artist was inspired by Xena's costume?

[Chiroptera]

Yeah, while I like her usual costume I'd be happy to see her get the more armored look.

Of course, I'd also like to see a shift away from the American flag concept.
The colors of her costume (yes, right down to the stars on a blue field) can all EASILY Be linked back to the Greek pantheon, and I'd like to see this happen.

The golden eagle is a symbol of Zeus. A dark red banner was also always considered to be a sign of the king of the gods.
Stars on a blue field represented a number of various Greek gods, Athena and Selene being two of the major ones.

I'd like to see her bustier made a dark royal red or crimson. I'd like to see a gladiator kilt with the star stud-bolts instead of the star-spangled panties. Make her ensemble seem more like a true uniform and less like a costume.
Most importantly, for the love of gods, we've gotten rid of the high heels and I want it to STAY That way. I never want to see Wondy wearing high heeled boots again unless she's at some big UN event or something and is wearing some ceremonial version of her uniform.

[dreyga2000]

I'm personally am for her current costume...but I do like her alternate costumes and armors...not sure I would like a drasic change soming subtle....perhaps

The only thing that really hammers the link to the US Flag would be the stars perhaps if you down played down or stipped them all together?

Or they push the notion her costume represents the sky? Blue Starry sky, Golden Eagle.... Makes sense

[celticguy]

I'm personally am for her current costume...but I do like her alternate costumes and armors...not sure I would like a drasic change soming subtle....perhaps

The only thing that really hammers the link to the US Flag would be the stars perhaps if you down played down or stipped them all together?

Or they push the notion her costume represents the sky? Blue Starry sky, Golden Eagle.... Makes sense

I can buy the eagle but the red white and blue is passe. there is no such thing as a blue starry sky. I can see using the colors but not in the american flag format.

I mean does she even have working papers?

[dreyga2000]

I can buy the eagle but the red white and blue is passe. there is no such thing as a blue starry sky. I can see using the colors but not in the american flag format.

I mean does she even have working papers?

Now that she does have a secret identity and a job I would say yes...

And I have seen night skies with a distingshable blue tint to them...

As for the colors as long as they keep the red, blue and gold I'm good... the white is barely apart of her costume....How bout gold stars?

[Alan2099]

Whenever I see WW in an armored costume, it always strikes me as the artists trying too hard to make her look tough.

[Pól Rua]

To me, practicality is a secondary concern.
You start worrying too much about that and you end up with rubber batsuits and Liefeld pouches.

To me, the main problem with Wonder Woman is iconography. The costume really doesn't suit her character at all. I'd like to see a costume which is simple and striking in the same way that Superman or Batman's are, but which actually says something about her character.

[BBeeryan]

Why would any sane person wanna take her outta her thong and **** me boots?!?:tongue: I don't get it.:confused:

[Pixie_Solanas]

Why would any sane person wanna take her outta her thong and **** me boots?!?:tongue: I don't get it.:confused:

To be fair, she hasn't had ****-me boots in years. She's wearing comfort flats like some schoolmarm with arch support problems.

Ridiculous.

[Pixie_Solanas]

To me, practicality is a secondary concern.
You start worrying too much about that and you end up with rubber batsuits and Liefeld pouches.

To me, the main problem with Wonder Woman is iconography. The costume really doesn't suit her character at all. I'd like to see a costume which is simple and striking in the same way that Superman or Batman's are, but which actually says something about her character.

Frankly, the most appealing thing about the WW character is her costume - which belies her serious (almost BORING) gravitas as an Amazonian princess (come on, loosen up a bit) and introduces a touch of cheesiness to the character that's otherwise sorely lacking. Plus, it conjures memories of the bad-ass retro chic Lynda Carter tv show. To me, that's the perfect iconography for the character.

[BBeeryan]

To be fair, she hasn't had ****-me boots in years. She's wearing comfort flats like some schoolmarm with arch support problems.

Ridiculous.

...Your point?!?:confused:
So... why would anyone wanna take her out of that outfit?

[Pixie_Solanas]

...Your point?!?:confused:
So... why would anyone wanna take her out of that outfit?

My point is I don't mind if her ugg boots go, as they've been effectively spayed of any interest. Right now, she kinda does look ridiculous. She's high camp cheesy up top, but then they decided to tone it down on the footwear (for some insane reason). Like some idiot editor made the brilliant call that she's a little too much if she had some heeled boots on, never mind the star spangled ass-underoos and the shiny halter top. If she really wanted to rule, get some high-heels on those boots and go for the full effect.

[Robo Ape]

Frankly, the most appealing thing about the WW character is her costume - which belies her serious (almost BORING) gravitas as an Amazonian princess (come on, loosen up a bit) and introduces a touch of cheesiness to the character that's otherwise sorely lacking. Plus, it conjures memories of the bad-ass retro chic Lynda Carter tv show. To me, that's the perfect iconography for the character.

No it just undermines the character. Cheesiness is the last thing the character needs. Would you be suggesting such a thing if we were talking about the Bat or Superman?

[BBeeryan]

My point is I don't mind if her ugg boots go, as they've been effectively spayed of any interest. Right now, she kinda does look ridiculous. She's high camp cheesy up top, but then they decided to tone it down on the footwear (for some insane reason). Like some idiot editor made the brilliant call that she's a little too much if she had some heeled boots on, never mind the star spangled ass-underoos and the shiny halter top. If she really wanted to rule, get some high-heels on those boots and go for the full effect.
Can't argue with that, if she's gonna do it why not go all the way huh?:biggrin:


No it just undermines the character. Cheesiness is the last thing the character needs. Would you be suggesting such a thing if we were talking about the Bat or Superman?
No! Because men belong in the battle field. Diana belongs in the kitchen baking, Gotham and Themiscryra's specialty.

[oanswat]

NOOOOO WAAAY!!!

IT’S ICONIC!!

Would you say the same to batmans costume?? or superman???...

NO cause the costume is just PERFECT!!..

:mad:

*sigh*

its not a costume.. ulike superman and batman... its a Ceremonial Battle Armor

Plus, a person like wonder woman who is nearly invincible like superman and as talented a fighter as batman in many respects wouldn't need to wear clothes at all if were talking practicallity. They just hinder her movements if she's MORE clothed. Her outift is ceremonial, not practical, that's why she wears it and she's defended it on several occasions. Going so far as to state that our flag was based on her ceremonial garb rather than the other way around. After all, the amazon's were here first.

[oanswat]

Regardless of whether it undermines her, it's a silly design. The same goes for Batman and Superman. All three of them need updates.

Couldn't agree less. I think, considering who they are, that they have changed their costumes enough over the last sixty plus years. They are icons. THey shouldn't change with fashion, they are the fashion.

[Pixie_Solanas]

No it just undermines the character. Cheesiness is the last thing the character needs. Would you be suggesting such a thing if we were talking about the Bat or Superman?

she's not undermined at all. she's in control and under no one's "safe" norms for garb. Changing her uni would be " selling out" to the man x 1,000.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Couldn't agree less. I think, considering who they are, that they have changed their costumes enough over the last sixty plus years. They are icons. THey shouldn't change with fashion, they are the fashion.

exactly. "freshening up" an iconic look is ridiculous. There was a good piece in a recent Wizard that went over all the costume updates in the 90s (electric blue iceskater Superman, armored Azrael Batman, bearded Aquaman) and they were all horrid.

[Xybernauts]

Plus, a person like wonder woman who is nearly invincible like superman and as talented a fighter as batman in many respects wouldn't need to wear clothes at all if were talking practicallity. They just hinder her movements if she's MORE clothed. Her outift is ceremonial, not practical, that's why she wears it and she's defended it on several occasions. Going so far as to state that our flag was based on her ceremonial garb rather than the other way around. After all, the amazon's were here first.

I agree that WW doesn't need armor cause not only is she invincible, but she also has magic on her side.


Frankly, the most appealing thing about the WW character is her costume - which belies her serious (almost BORING) gravitas as an Amazonian princess (come on, loosen up a bit) and introduces a touch of cheesiness to the character that's otherwise sorely lacking. Plus, it conjures memories of the bad-ass retro chic Lynda Carter tv show. To me, that's the perfect iconography for the character.

I agree with this as well, but not cause it's cheesy. I think her costume is one of the most interesting things about her.





Yeah, but they at least make THEMATIC sense.

Robin has a ludicrous costume, but it makes sense thematically. Drawing designs from Peter Pan (child/youth), Errol Flynn's Robin Hood (laughing, swashbuckling defender of justice), a circus acrobat (bright and colourful), and a Robin (red tunic).

Wonder Woman's tiara makes sense. She's a princess. The eagle can make sense. Many civilizations have used the eagle as a symbol of power, nobility and bravery.
The patriotic colour scheme and star-spangled underpants? not so much.


Yes, but what about a shield? Shields represent strength and resilence. A defender. Superman wears one on his chest. Shields are also used in heraldry to let people know who you are. Superman has his initial on his chest.
This, along with his bare head, tells people that here is a guy who is up-front, who lets you know who he is.

You ever heard of power-dressing? Bright, primary coloured ties and so forth? Denoting strength?
Yeah, Red and Blue. Strong primary colours. Red is the colour of power, activity, action. Blue is the colour of the sky. Oh yeah, and a red and gold thing in the centre of the sky? The sun.
There's another piece of symbolism for the chest logo.


None of which has anything to do with whether a costume is an effective symbol or not.


Seriously, where is this coming from?
None of this has ANYTHING to do with whether a character's costume is well designed or not. Visual design is important. It communicates what a character is about in quick, easy cues.

Superman's costume tells us that this character is active, powerful, forthright, has great presence, honest, strong and a protector.
Batman's costume tells us that he is sinister, dark, shadowy, sneaky, scary and powerful.
Wonder Woman's costume tells us that this character is a patriotic bikini cowgirl.

Pól Rua, to me has had the most compelling argument explaining what's wrong with WW's costume. It makes sense and is logical. I can see how the theme of her costume doesn't accent her character. To me, this makes sense.

Technically when WW was first written I imagine theme wise WW's costume did make sense, but as her character evolved over the decades her look just didn't keep up with her character. Some of the pics that have been posted show some simple ways to fix her character so she will fit theme wise.



Like this???

http://pics.livejournal.com/schmevil/pic/00071f72

Minus the blindfold and gloves of course...

Of all the costumes variations, I think this one would be the best improvement. It's loyal to WW's original costume and is a very simply change which is reminiscent of the original version of WW in her old skirt look.

http://hallofheroes.free.fr/Images/UltimateDC/wonderwoman.jpg

This is the pic I posted. It also works out well, but takes a few liberties. The problem is it shows even more skin then WW's original costume which some people might not like. I don't have a problem with that though. One thing this costume has over dreyga2000's post is that it might actually fit better in terms of theme. I dislike the tiara. They should use her original.


Donna's Wonder Woman costume was quite cool:
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/188/snapshot20081113010759nf5.png

This is another great costume. It's really beautiful, but it strays from from WW's color scheme which I dislike.


Hm, I don't think anyone's posted this link yet. http://www.tencentticker.com/projectrooftop/2007/11/26/wonder-woman-wardrobe-war-winners/
A lot of them are more of alternate universe costumes, but there are some interesting ideas in there. My favorite has to be Ming Doyle's.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk140/marquis_samedi/Ming-Doyle.jpg

Spandex base ('cause she's a superhero after all) with cloth drapery and leather layered over it. It might need to be simplified further, but I think something like this could be fantastic.

This is the only costume I outright dislike. No offense Death by Mime. It really strays to far from what I imagine WW's costume should look like. So far in fact that I question whether or not it should even be considered a WW costume. It's a variation on her costume, but not really an improvement.

[Xybernauts]

Storm of the X-men, and Queen Ororo of Wakanda are one and the SAME!!!

Outside of the obvious, what does this mean? Is there some new development in X-Men comics I don't know about. I haven't been keeping up with the comic as of late.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Wonder Woman's costume, although I would like to see a rotation of the leather star studded skirt and the bootie short shorts and stop short of the Star Spangled Thong, which belongs in hell with the Super-Mullet.

She's an Amazon, The Amazons are body proud, as they should be. You don't see any Fatties on Paradise Island, do we? These women are rightfully proud of their bodies. They live on a frickin' beach restort fer tryin out loud.

Gold, Red & Blue are The Amazonian colors, I believe.

[Xybernauts]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Wonder Woman's costume, although I would like to see a rotation of the leather star studded skirt and the bootie short shorts and stop short of the Star Spangled Thong, which belongs in hell with the Super-Mullet.

She's an Amazon, The Amazons are body proud, as they should be. You don't see any Fatties on Paradise Island, do we? These women are rightfully proud of their bodies. They live on a frickin' beach restort fer tryin out loud.

Gold, Red & Blue are The Amazonian colors, I believe.

I agree. From a sexual stand point WW's costume is fine. But from a thematic stand point it's falls short. I don't mean to sound like I'm flipping, it's more like I'm taking a middle ground instead. If drawn I think WW is fine, but if they were to make a live action movie, I think her costume might be alittle hard to pull off. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it would take a really good director with who knows what he's doing, a flawless performance from the cast, and really skilled crew to pull off. The pic below is the best WW costume I've ever seen so far, but it's lacking. It could use darker colors which might help.

http://tvmedia.ign.com/tv/image/article/783/783905/ifl-battleground-20070426024400645.jpg

[Robo Ape]

I think you can tell their is something wrong with her costume whenever it comes to have to realizing it in reality. As soon as you have to put it on a real woman it's poor nature becomes apparent. Admittedly this is an issue with a lot of superhero costumes, hence for example the various film versions of the Bat's costume, but I think WW's is particularly problematic.

[Kid Kyoto]

Going so far as to state that our flag was based on her ceremonial garb rather than the other way around. After all, the amazon's were here first.

Um, no.

This is because Wonder Woman and her Amazons are made up while the American flag is real.

Just a bad idea.

[MythicBrawn]

I think you can tell their is something wrong with her costume whenever it comes to have to realizing it in reality. As soon as you have to put it on a real woman it's poor nature becomes apparent. Admittedly this is an issue with a lot of superhero costumes, hence for example the various film versions of the Bat's costume, but I think WW's is particularly problematic.

Absolutely agree with this. Her costume may be iconic but it is wholly impractical. I don't see women wearing something like that working out much less into battle.

[Death by Mime]

This is the only costume I outright dislike. No offense Death by Mime. It really strays to far from what I imagine WW's costume should look like. So far in fact that I question whether or not it should even be considered a WW costume. It's a variation on her costume, but not really an improvement.

Ah well, I guess I have weird taste then.


Going so far as to state that our flag was based on her ceremonial garb rather than the other way around. After all, the amazon's were here first.

Betsy Ross was an Amazon?? :eek:

Actually, as long as it's not done too seriously, that would be a kind of interesting story.

[Robo Ape]

Absolutely agree with this. Her costume may be iconic but it is wholly impractical. I don't see women wearing something like that working out much less into battle.

I always felt rather sorry for poor old Lynda Carter being lumbered with the costume in the 70s TV show, good job the show was done in such a camp way.

[hondobrode]

Miller and Perez have both shown it. She needs to be an Amazon in lightweight Amazonian armor with Roman-style skirt, boots without heels, the same bracelets and lasso, golden eagle incorporated with red, white and blue accents, helmet, shield, possibly a sword or spear standard. It could be argued everything except the spear or sword is protective and that she herself is the weapon. Captain America never had anything but his shield and he used that to great effect but defensively and offensively. I could see Diana sharpening the edges of the shield as a large offensive weapon but not bouncing it around like Cap.

The armored WW is just so much more true to the character and what she truly is about IMO, but I'm afraid we'll never see it.

[LungerTony]

So people who are critical of the traditional WW costume are arguing because strong women can't have an ugly costume or that strong women can't have a sexy costume?
Or can strong women not have an ugly and sexy costume?

I don't think there is anything wrong with her costume. It's iconic, and I don't even find it all that revealing. But then again I am not a feminist who has issues with woman being both strong AND sexy.

WW is an awesome character.

[pariah-1972]

So people who are critical of the traditional WW costume are arguing because strong women can't have an ugly costume or that strong women can't have a sexy costume?
Or can strong women not have an ugly and sexy costume?

I don't think there is anything wrong with her costume. It's iconic, and I don't even find it all that revealing. But then again I am not a feminist who has issues with woman being both strong AND sexy.

WW is an awesome character.I think it has more to do with why someone from a foreign country where the american flag on her bottom.

[dreyga2000]

I think it has more to do with why someone from a foreign country where the american flag on her bottom.

They do have in-continuity explanation for this and deal with this question every other issue...I don''t really get whyso many people have a problem with it...She is in reality an American comic book character....

[Spiffy]

Why would any sane person wanna take her outta her thong and **** me boots?!?:tongue: I don't get it.:confused:
I suppose it depends on gender and sexual orientation. :biggrin:

I mean why is anyone disturbed by Power Girl's breasts being the size of basketballs, with a big opening in her clothes revealing them? Nuts! Why would this bother ANYONE? :biggrin:



Storm of the X-men, and Queen Ororo of Wakanda are one and the SAME!!!
Outside of the obvious, what does this mean? Is there some new development in X-Men comics I don't know about. I haven't been keeping up with the comic as of late.
It means that they are the same character. What else would it mean?

Unless you are asking why the statement is part of one of BBeeryan's posts in the first place. And the answer to that is... it's NOT. It's BBeeryan's signature and is seen at the bottom of every post BBeeryan makes. Why does BBeeryan WANT this as a signature? I have no idea. I'm just pointing out that your question about it seems to stem from not understanding its not part of BBeeryan's post about Wonder Woman.

[pariah-1972]

They do have in-continuity explanation for this and deal with this question every other issue...I don''t really get why so many people have a problem with it...She is in reality an American comic book character....The explanation didn't come until the Perez reboot and it still didn't make much sense and it never will.

Her ancestors are Greek and are related to the greek gods so there's no good reason why she would wear an stars on her bottom.

[DeadXMan]

The explanation didn't come until the Perez reboot and it still didn't make much sense and it never will.

Her ancestors are Greek and are related to the Greek gods so there's no good reason why she would wear an stars on her bottom.

becausepeople thought the stars and planets were Gods at one point hince why the the plants are named after the Greek/Roman Gods

and to honor heroes the gods made them into constellations

[LungerTony]

It seems people are using her Greekness as an excuse to hate on her costume.
An in-continuity explanation was given.

I never thought that Greek and a blue w/ white star pattern were diametrically opposed to each other.

It's almost like saying Falcon's costume sucks because black men don't wear red and white spandex or something.

[dreyga2000]

The explanation didn't come until the Perez reboot and it still didn't make much sense and it never will.

Her ancestors are Greek and are related to the greek gods so there's no good reason why she would wear an stars on her bottom.

Before then she was firm believer in American idelology as it most closely resembled that of the Amazons. Her original origin depicted more as immigrant super hero than as an Foreign Princess/Ambassdor. This Diana even considered herself as an American.

[Xybernauts]

Unless you are asking why the statement is part of one of BBeeryan's posts in the first place. And the answer to that is... it's NOT. It's BBeeryan's signature and is seen at the bottom of every post BBeeryan makes. Why does BBeeryan WANT this as a signature? I have no idea. I'm just pointing out that your question about it seems to stem from not understanding its not part of BBeeryan's post about Wonder Woman.

I know it's his signature and I know it has nothing to do with this particular topic concerning WW. I'm asking because the statement seems redundant. It's telling people something that for the most part is common knowledge in the comic book community. I'm asking if there is some underlying reason he made this comment his sig. Is there some underlying reason that isn't obvious. Is there some new development in X-Men comics for instance. For example there might be some new plot where the identities of Princess Ororo is in question and the characters of X-Men comics wonder if she's really their Storm.

[BBeeryan]

I suppose it depends on gender and sexual orientation. :biggrin:

I mean why is anyone disturbed by Power Girl's breasts being the size of basketballs, with a big opening in her clothes revealing them? Nuts! Why would this bother ANYONE? :biggrin:


It means that they are the same character. What else would it mean?

Unless you are asking why the statement is part of one of BBeeryan's posts in the first place. And the answer to that is... it's NOT. It's BBeeryan's signature and is seen at the bottom of every post BBeeryan makes. Why does BBeeryan WANT this as a signature? I have no idea. I'm just pointing out that your question about it seems to stem from not understanding its not part of BBeeryan's post about Wonder Woman.

Right on MAN. RIGHT ON!!!
Also let us all make it known that Ororo wore the Wonder Woman costume better than Diana EVER could. All agreed? Ohhhhh yeeaaahhhh!!!

[dreyga2000]

Right on MAN. RIGHT ON!!!
Also let us all make it known that Ororo wore the Wonder Woman costume better than Diana EVER could. All agreed? Ohhhhh yeeaaahhhh!!!

Wowie you may jst be right that's some look right there...:eek:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/strngfte14

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/NAKHIALLAH/Comic%20Covers/Amazon-00fc.jpg

[Pól Rua]

...Your point?!?:confused:
So... why would anyone wanna take her out of that outfit?
Which would be fine if she was a stripper or a pornstar or a showgirl or a pin-up girl.
Design has a lot more to do with 'is this hawt?'.


So people who are critical of the traditional WW costume are arguing because strong women can't have an ugly costume or that strong women can't have a sexy costume?
Or can strong women not have an ugly and sexy costume?
I'm arguing that an iconic character should have a costume that represents them.
An icon, by definition, is a symbol which stands in for and embodies something bigger than itself. The look, therefore, of the character should reflect that 'something'.
Wonder Woman's costume seems to be saying "Patriotic American Bikini Girl"... which she isn't.
As a piece of iconography, it fails, in that it really doesn't reflect or represent anything about the character at all.


I don't think there is anything wrong with her costume. It's iconic, and I don't even find it all that revealing. But then again I am not a feminist who has issues with woman being both strong AND sexy.

I am a feminist, and I have no issues with women being strong and sexy, however, that's a false dichotomy. By issue with WW's costume isn't that it's too revealing, or that it undermines her as a woman, but that it fails to represent her as a character.
It's a well-designed costume... it'd look great on the nosecone of a WWII Bomber.
But it tells us nothing about the character.

[BBeeryan]

Wowie you may jst be right that's some look right there...:eek:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/strngfte14

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/NAKHIALLAH/Comic%20Covers/Amazon-00fc.jpg

Let 'em know. You gotta gimme some internet dap on that. Major cool points awarded to dreyga2000.:cool: All hail DREYGA!!! Best post of the week.

[BBeeryan]

Which would be fine if she was a stripper or a pornstar or a showgirl or a pin-up girl.
Design has a lot more to do with 'is this hawt?'.


I'm arguing that an iconic character should have a costume that represents them.
An icon, by definition, is a symbol which stands in for and embodies something bigger than itself. The look, therefore, of the character should reflect that 'something'.
Wonder Woman's costume seems to be saying "Patriotic American Bikini Girl"... which she isn't.
As a piece of iconography, it fails, in that it really doesn't reflect or represent anything about the character at all.


I am a feminist, and I have no issues with women being strong and sexy, however, that's a false dichotomy. By issue with WW's costume isn't that it's too revealing, or that it undermines her as a woman, but that it fails to represent her as a character.
It's a well-designed costume... it'd look great on the nosecone of a WWII Bomber.
But it tells us nothing about the character.

Quit your belly aching. When you see the costume you know who & what it represents. If that ain't an icon, i'll become an uptight pmser as well.:rolleyes:

[BBeeryan]

I know it's his signature and I know it has nothing to do with this particular topic concerning WW. I'm asking because the statement seems redundant. It's telling people something that for the most part is common knowledge in the comic book community. I'm asking if there is some underlying reason he made this comment his sig. Is there some underlying reason that isn't obvious. Is there some new development in X-Men comics for instance. For example there might be some new plot where the identities of Princess Ororo is in question and the characters of X-Men comics wonder if she's really their Storm.

Wait, let's just get this understood, I called her Queen Ororo. Not princess. And I have it as my sig because so many NAYSAYERS are up in arms about it. They want to leave her husband, relinquishing her title as Queen. However redundant it may appear, it is what it is. I hope you got a better understanding, and if you didn't, oh well.

[joemagnum611]

I personally don't have a problem with her costume although I like the version with the skirt better.

[LungerTony]

I am a feminist, and I have no issues with women being strong and sexy, however, that's a false dichotomy. By issue with WW's costume isn't that it's too revealing, or that it undermines her as a woman, but that it fails to represent her as a character.
It's a well-designed costume... it'd look great on the nosecone of a WWII Bomber.
But it tells us nothing about the character.

WW's costume is iconic because even a man can wear it w/ a black wig for Halloween and people will recognize the character.

And I don't know what you look for in costumes "to tell you stuff about a character." I don't know if your looking for things as direct as Mr. Terrific's "Fairplay" sleeves or what, but, you can definitely discern stuff from her costume.
I think you definitely understand that she represents those positive virtues of America, such as freedom, liberty, blah, etc. for instance.

[carabas]

I think you definitely understand that she represents those positive virtues of America, such as freedom, liberty, blah, etc. for instance.The problem is that Wonder Woman does not actually represent that at all. She is not an America's #1 cheerleader, but for some reason she dresses the part.

[esdee]

@ kalorama: I think you're right, only a small number of straight guys pay attention to wonderwoman. Aside from her curves and....well, curves. There's nothing more to her.

[Robo Ape]

The problem is that Wonder Woman does not actually reprtesent that at all. She is not an America's #1 cheerleader, but for some reason she dresses the part.

Agree the costume doesn't really represent much of her character at all, for a start it says nothing of her Amazon or warrior origins.

[RachelRules]

Actually the current incarnation of Wonder Woman is dressed in a so-called "American" outfit for valid reason. The costume was made from the remnants of the uniform and various acoutrements of Diana Trevor, a pilot who crashed on Themyscira and saved a number of Amazons from an attack at Doom's Doorway and was herself killed (and yes, she was Steve's mother). The costume created was a tribute to a brave warrior.

While I agree that it could be perceived as being sexist, I think the character is above such considerations. It's no more inappropriate then the skin tight costumes worn by men that show off their (as the Festrunk brothers would say) "bulges".

It's an iconic costume. Would you rather she wore the unfortunate costume that Cathy Lee Crosby wore in the made-for-TV Wonder Woman movie? Let her be.

[carabas]

Actually the current incarnation of Wonder Woman is dressed in a so-called "American" outfit for valid reason. The costume was made from the remnants of the uniform and various acoutrements of Diana Trevor, a pilot who crashed on Themyscira and saved a number of Amazons from an attack at Doom's Doorway and was herself killed (and yes, she was Steve's mother). The costume created was a tribute to a brave warrior.That is not so much a valid reason as it is a convoluted and unconvincing excuse.

Also, how do you turn a US army/navy uniform into a spandexy, brightly blue and red swimsuit?

[celticguy]

While I agree that it could be perceived as being sexist, I think the character is above such considerations. It's no more inappropriate then the skin tight costumes worn by men that show off their (as the Festrunk brothers would say) "bulges".




those are cups man gotta protect yourself.

[Violently Apathetic]

While I agree that it could be perceived as being sexist, I think the character is above such considerations. It's no more inappropriate then the skin tight costumes worn by men that show off their (as the Festrunk brothers would say) "bulges".
.

I'd find that a little more convincing if the men didn't so often look like Ken dolls in the front...

[Pól Rua]

Quit your belly aching. When you see the costume you know who & what it represents. If that ain't an icon, i'll become an uptight pmser as well.:rolleyes:
Okay, first, you wanna quit with the insults?
I haven't called you any names, have I? No. So less of the 'uptight PMSer' please.
Plus, I'm a dude. I also happen to be a feminist. There are lots of us. Deal.


WW's costume is iconic because even a man can wear it w/ a black wig for Halloween and people will recognize the character.
In that regard... in that it's widely recognized, yeah. But it's very non-representational.


And I don't know what you look for in costumes "to tell you stuff about a character." I don't know if your looking for things as direct as Mr. Terrific's "Fairplay" sleeves or what, but, you can definitely discern stuff from her costume.
Not at all. As I said before, if you look at Superman's costume, you're seeing strong primary colours, red, yellow and blue. Red symbolises strength and energy. Force. Blue symbolises calm and balance. Blue is also the colour of the sky.
Superman has a shield on his chest. Firstly, a shield protects from harm, and is resistant to damage. Also, the fact that the shield is red and yellow against a blue background is reminiscent of the sun, and Superman has many 'solar' aspects.
The fact that he doesn't wear a mask tells us that he's open, honest, and direct... unlike a character like Batman who feels that he needs to conceal his face.
Superman's costume tells us what Superman is like.
Batman's costume does the same. As does that of Green Lantern, Green Arrow, The Flash, Robin, Aquaman, Hawkman...


I think you definitely understand that she represents those positive virtues of America, such as freedom, liberty, blah, etc. for instance.
Exactly. And I have to emphasize, I have no problem with the costume design. It's a great design. I'm a big fan of the Golden Age flagsuit hero or heroine. If just doesn't reflect the character wearing it, especially the overt American patriotism of it.

[BBeeryan]

I'd find that a little more convincing if the men didn't so often look like Ken dolls in the front...

LMMFAO:biggrin:

[Bored at 3:00AM]

There's overt patriotism to the costume because it's supposed to be a overtly patriotic costume. This is why having a World War II Wonder Woman is so important. The Golden Age Wonder Woman was trying to look like an American symbol because she was fighting on behalf of America during the war, within the American military. She may have been an Amazon, but she was also representing the American Dream--this is why Darwyn Cooke's WW worked so well in New Frontier.

The current WW still has the patriotic connection through American flyer Diana Trevor, and Hippolyta filling in during WWII via convoluted time shennanigans.

[LungerTony]

When I said "postive virtues of America, such as"...I didn't literally mean American nationalism.
I meant liberty, freedom, justice. Those virtues that are associated with an idealic perception of America.
I didn't mean America itself.

[LungerTony]

That is not so much a valid reason as it is a convoluted and unconvincing excuse.

Also, how do you turn a US army/navy uniform into a spandexy, brightly blue and red swimsuit?

It's comics man. Crazier things have happened.

[Pól Rua]

It's comics man. Crazier things have happened.

It's bad comics. Just because Youngblood exists doesn't mean we can excuse Infinite Crisis.

[milosimpkin]

Not at all. As I said before, if you look at Superman's costume, you're seeing strong primary colours, red, yellow and blue. Red symbolises strength and energy. Force. Blue symbolises calm and balance. Blue is also the colour of the sky.
Superman has a shield on his chest. Firstly, a shield protects from harm, and is resistant to damage. Also, the fact that the shield is red and yellow against a blue background is reminiscent of the sun, and Superman has many 'solar' aspects.
The fact that he doesn't wear a mask tells us that he's open, honest, and direct... unlike a character like Batman who feels that he needs to conceal his face.
Superman's costume tells us what Superman is like.
Batman's costume does the same. As does that of Green Lantern, Green Arrow, The Flash, Robin, Aquaman, Hawkman...

Couldn't exactly the same thing be said about Wonder Woman though? Her maskless nature also demonstrates her openess with her tiara indicating her regal status. The Red and blue of her constume symbolises the same as it does on Supes, with the added white representing a purity about her as well.

The eagle is generally seen as a noble animal, but is also a predator, showing her dual nature as royalty and a warrior. The bracelets harken back to the greaves of ancient armour.

[Pól Rua]

Couldn't exactly the same thing be said about Wonder Woman though? Her maskless nature also demonstrates her openess with her tiara indicating her regal status. The Red and blue of her constume symbolises the same as it does on Supes, with the added white representing a purity about her as well.

The eagle is generally seen as a noble animal, but is also a predator, showing her dual nature as royalty and a warrior. The bracelets harken back to the greaves of ancient armour.

So, french-cut star-spangled knickers?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

So, french-cut star-spangled knickers?

Hey world! Check out my awesome can!

Seriously.

Same goes for speedo boys Superman and Batman. The undies outside their tights aren't there for any practical reasons.

I actually think Wonder Woman is in no way ashamed of her fantastic bootay and wants to show 'em off as any other red-blooded Amazon warrior woman would.

[Flâneur]

Hey world! Check out my awesome can!

Seriously.

Same goes for speedo boys Superman and Batman. The undies outside their tights aren't there for any practical reasons.

I actually think Wonder Woman is in no way ashamed of her fantastic bootay and wants to show 'em off as any other red-blooded Amazon warrior woman would.

Yes. The very independent and practical warrior women who reject men and man's world are seeking to become a sexual object for men. Not being ashamed of one's body does not equate to wanting one's self to be a masturbation fantasy.

[carabas]

Couldn't exactly the same thing be said about Wonder Woman though? Her maskless nature also demonstrates her openess with her tiara indicating her regal status. The Red and blue of her constume symbolises the same as it does on Supes, with the added white representing a purity about her as well.

The eagle is generally seen as a noble animal, but is also a predator, showing her dual nature as royalty and a warrior. The bracelets harken back to the greaves of ancient armour.Yes. But only if you're from an other dimension where the combination of the colours red, white and blue (and eagles) don't carry this huge political weight.

[Libaax]

Yes. The very independent and practical warrior women who reject men and man's world are seeking to become a sexual object for men. Not being ashamed of one's body does not equate to wanting one's self to be a masturbation fantasy.

Thats why i have never taken her seriously. She is one of few female superheros where her so called suit ruins her for me.

She doesnt look like a warrrior but the kind of fantasy you mentioned.

A ancient greece female warrior who still looks sexy and dress scantly are Xena's type suit. I geuss that was too much clothes for a superhero of her type....

Superman and do may have underoos on the outside but they still look powerful,superheroes.

Its the sexism behind her creation that ruins her. She is too old in her history for her sake.

She need to be like a modern female superhero. Sure they are scantly dressed in a stripper fantasy way or atleast most of them but not as much as WW.....

[Crisis]

wasnt this "answered" in the late 60s when she became de-powered and became plain diana prince. (which are now available as trade paper backs by the way) and it proved to be so unpopular that they eventually brought her back in the stars and stripes?

[Black Atom]

Thats why i have never taken her seriously. She is one of few female superheros where her so called suit ruins her for me.

That's where you draw the line, huh? Hal Jordan is a space cop, who's "uniform" is a green one-piece bathing suit, but WW's costume busts your suspension of disbelief?


Its the sexism behind her creation that ruins her. She is too old in her history for her sake.

If we know anything about WM Marston, her creator, it's that he was hopelessly sexist.

Actually, WW's costume wasn't especially revealing at all for the time. Remember--superhero costumes in general are pretty camp. The Golden Age Atom didn't wear pants, Hawkman went shirtless and the Spectre was wearing a cloak and a speedo. It's a convention of the world these guys exist in that no one really looks twice at a guy coming to save you in his underwear. It's comic fans that've, for some reason, started demanding that characters have practical-looking costumes. It's like complaining that Daisy Duck is a slut because she doesn't have bottoms.

[princesa]

What? The situation sucks, but it isn't likely to improve, so try not to be too bothered by it?
What sort of wussy, defeatist attitude is that?

Lol, well I would more likely call it "it is what it is'.

[Robo Ape]

People who mention about Powergirl's costume and how revealing it is should remember she is invulnerable more or less and therefore doesn't need armour or protection. That said I am not sure what the logic behind the prominent display of her breasts is, other than the obvious one as far as selling the character is concerned.

[kalorama]

That's where you draw the line, huh? Hal Jordan is a space cop, who's "uniform" is a green one-piece bathing suit, but WW's costume busts your suspension of disbelief?

A green one-piece on top of a black leotard that covers his entire body. Not quite the same as Wonder Woman's one piece that covers up practically nothing.

[carabas]

wasnt this "answered" in the late 60s when she became de-powered and became plain diana prince. (which are now available as trade paper backs by the way) and it proved to be so unpopular that they eventually brought her back in the stars and stripes?Not really.
Like you said, she was depowered at the time, a change that's arguably a bit more controverial than a mere costume change. The book underwent a complete and radical transformation.

If Superman lost all of his powers, essentially turning the book into a martial arts comic, and got a costume update at the same time, which of those changes do you think would draw the most fire?

[spiderman_rj]

i like the skirt she has on the new game caming out,and in the dvd of justice league,it looks much better like that.

[Black Atom]

A green one-piece on top of a black leotard that covers his entire body. Not quite the same as Wonder Woman's one piece that covers up practically nothing.

"Nothing"? The only thing exposed are her arms and legs, which is rather practical for someone employed in a strictly athletic capacity, like a gymnast, runner, diver or super-powered crime-fighter.

The point is that both costumes are inherently camp and only make sense to wear in the fantasy world they were dreamt up for. In real life, a cop coming to arrest you in a skintight leotard would be just as silly as a woman trying to beat you up in a bathing suit and high heels.

[Libaax]

That's where you draw the line, huh? Hal Jordan is a space cop, who's "uniform" is a green one-piece bathing suit, but WW's costume busts your suspension of disbelief?



If we know anything about WM Marston, her creator, it's that he was hopelessly sexist.

Actually, WW's costume wasn't especially revealing at all for the time. Remember--superhero costumes in general are pretty camp. The Golden Age Atom didn't wear pants, Hawkman went shirtless and the Spectre was wearing a cloak and a speedo. It's a convention of the world these guys exist in that no one really looks twice at a guy coming to save you in his underwear. It's comic fans that've, for some reason, started demanding that characters have practical-looking costumes. It's like complaining that Daisy Duck is a slut because she doesn't have bottoms.

Who said i care about Hal Jordan's. Although i have read some GL i liked unlike WW i never gave a chance.

Its not suspension of disbelief but cause of how uninteresting her costume make her look. Costume is important when its a hero you dont know. Reason you think Batman looks cool when you dont know what he is about is how he looks overall with the costume and not the underwear on the outside thing of his costume.

I prefer my female superheroes to look less sexist stuff ala my favorites Manhunter,Batgirl,Huntress. Funny enough they dont wear fishnett or bathing suit tong.

Not the reason i read and enjoy those heroes but i like their costumes.

Sure im more of Batman and street level hero kind of fan and not Superman,Wonder Woman kind of fan but still a bad costume is a bad one.

[Pól Rua]

If we know anything about WM Marston, her creator, it's that he was hopelessly sexist.
Where are you getting this from? Marsdon was pretty kinky and into some slightly left-of-centre sexual stuff, but he was most definitely a feminist.

[Black Atom]

Who said i care about Hal Jordan's. Although i have read some GL i liked unlike WW i never gave a chance.

Its not suspension of disbelief but cause of how uninteresting her costume make her look. Costume is important when its a hero you dont know. Reason you think Batman looks cool when you dont know what he is about is how he looks overall with the costume and not the underwear on the outside thing of his costume.

I prefer my female superheroes to look less sexist stuff ala my favorites Manhunter,Batgirl,Huntress. Funny enough they dont wear fishnett or bathing suit tong.

Not the reason i read and enjoy those heroes but i like their costumes.

Sure im more of Batman and street level hero kind of fan and not Superman,Wonder Woman kind of fan but still a bad costume is a bad one.

That's just a matter of preference, though. It doesn't mean the costume is bad or sexist. WW wears more than Martian Manhunter does and skintight costume that covers head-to-toe can be more sexualized than one that doesn't have sleeves, for instance.


Where are you getting this from? Marsdon was pretty kinky and into some slightly left-of-centre sexual stuff, but he was most definitely a feminist.

It was lame sarcasm.

[princesa]

He might have been a freak but everything I have heard/read say Wonder Woman's creator was very much a feminist. Certainly for his times.

[Pól Rua]

It was lame sarcasm.
Fair 'nuff. Tone's never communicated well across written text.

[Xybernauts]

i like the skirt she has on the new game caming out,and in the dvd of justice league,it looks much better like that.

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2008/253/943567_20080910_screen002.jpg

http://media.ign.com/thumb/250/2505178/ww_dvdtrail_080608_flvlowwide_thumb_ign.jpg (http://media.dvd.ign.com/media/142/14228263/vids_1.html)
http://dvdmedia.ign.com/dvd/image/object/142/14228263/WWCOMICONIMAGE2boxart_160w.jpg
It look like the regular WW costume. Is there anything that makes it stand out other then how glossy it is?


Who said i care about Hal Jordan's. Although i have read some GL i liked unlike WW i never gave a chance.

Its not suspension of disbelief but cause of how uninteresting her costume make her look. Costume is important when its a hero you dont know. Reason you think Batman looks cool when you dont know what he is about is how he looks overall with the costume and not the underwear on the outside thing of his costume.

I prefer my female superheroes to look less sexist stuff ala my favorites Manhunter,Batgirl,Huntress. Funny enough they dont wear fishnett or bathing suit tong.

Not the reason i read and enjoy those heroes but i like their costumes.

Sure im more of Batman and street level hero kind of fan and not Superman,Wonder Woman kind of fan but still a bad costume is a bad one.

That's an interesting arguement. I always thought people just gravitate to heroes they identify with. Either that or you read what comes recommended. Perhaps WW needs a male sidekick that males can identify with to pull in some more male readers.

[kalorama]

"Nothing"? The only thing exposed are her arms and legs, which is rather practical for someone employed in a strictly athletic capacity, like a gymnast, runner, diver or super-powered crime-fighter.

The point is that both costumes are inherently camp and only make sense to wear in the fantasy world they were dreamt up for. In real life, a cop coming to arrest you in a skintight leotard would be just as silly as a woman trying to beat you up in a bathing suit and high heels.

Since when is crime fighting a "strictly athletic" pursuit?

[Black Atom]

Since when is crime fighting a "strictly athletic" pursuit?

Super-powered crime-fighting is and has been since the beginning. Notice how the first superhero comic has a guy lifting a car over his head instead of filling out a police report or dusting for fingerprints.

[kalorama]

Super-powered crime-fighting is and has been since the beginning. Notice how the first superhero comic has a guy lifting a car over his head instead of filling out a police report or dusting for fingerprints.

Notice how said guy is a superpowered alien whose powers have nothing to do with "athleticism" as we define it.

And even if your point was valid, it still serves only to underscore mine. To wit:

If wearing a legless, sleeveless onesie is such a boon to the "athletic pursuit" of crimefighting ... why are female crimefighters (by and large) the only ones who wear them? Why don't Batman and Spider-Man and Captain America run around with their limbs bare and their upper chests exposed? Also, last I checked, although some female athletes do wear legless/sleeveless outfits during competition, they don't generally wear strapless ones.

[midnightman2001]

Why do you people have a problem with hot looking chick superheroes?

wtf?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Yes. The very independent and practical warrior women who reject men and man's world are seeking to become a sexual object for men. Not being ashamed of one's body does not equate to wanting one's self to be a masturbation fantasy.

Since when have the Amazons been practical? They run around in togas and feathery helments and whatnot. The Amazons like to show off, not to men, but to themselves. It's not like the Amazons are nuns, they're warrior women. Athletic well-toned buttocks is something one Amazon would certainly want to show off to another Amazon.

You think women buy totally impractical and expensive high heel shoes for men? I beg to differ.

So, Superman & Batman wear speedos outside their tights to be masturbation fantasies too?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Why do you people have a problem with hot looking chick superheroes?

wtf?

Because strong female characters can't wear ridiculous costumes like Superman & Batman do and still be taken seriously, apparently.

I'll tell you what, when you nay-sayers can justify the speedos of Superman & Batman, then I'll start justifying the star spangled panties.

[Pól Rua]

Why do you people have a problem with hot looking chick superheroes?

wtf?

Nice strawman.
Try again.

[Pól Rua]

Because strong female characters can't wear ridiculous costumes like Superman & Batman do and still be taken seriously, apparently.

I'll tell you what, when you nay-sayers can justify the speedos of Superman & Batman, then I'll start justifying the star spangled panties.

http://arflovers.com/images/content/02_22_06_www2.jpghttp://www.actioncostumes.com/img/image_feedback/JimBowers.jpg

One of these things is not like the others.

[kalorama]

One of those things is not like anything I ever want to see again.

[Pól Rua]

One of those things is not like anything I ever want to see again.

Indeed. That says, I think it demonstrates adequately why Wonder Woman wearing Star-Spangled Knickers is not the same as Superman wearing red trunks.

Spare a thought for all the images I had to google past to get those.
Definitely not something I wanna do again.

EVER.

[Flâneur]

Since when have the Amazons been practical? They run around in togas and feathery helments and whatnot. The Amazons like to show off, not to men, but to themselves. It's not like the Amazons are nuns, they're warrior women. Athletic well-toned buttocks is something one Amazon would certainly want to show off to another Amazon.

You think women buy totally impractical and expensive high heel shoes for men? I beg to differ.

So, Superman & Batman wear speedos outside their tights to be masturbation fantasies too?

Well, the whole cultural history behind women's shoes and hence high heels does come down to patriarchal discourses but that's besides the point. No one has at all suggested the Amazons were nuns, a nun's uniform attempts to erase and cloister a woman's feminine attributes and the Amazons certainly would not practice such. The problem, however, is that there is no reason why Amazons would sexually exploit themselves for non existent men. It's like suggesting nudists all rouge their nipples and masturbate themselves in public while people clap; being comfortable and taking pride in your body is different to subjugating it to the purview of male erotic fantasy. Especially since, comic wise, all these Amazons are former victims of rape who reject man's world and Diana is their ambassador to show them the right way. It's utterly non-sensical for her to wear panties, let alone ones which have US sigils on them.

Also, the speedos don't reveal much flesh, Wonder Woman's costume does. In many incarnations it rides right up her butt. The moment I can see Superman's balls peeking out the side of his knickers then I'll concede he's a masturbation fantasy, but he isn't now. Besides, he doesn't seem to have any appreciable bulge to fantasise over.

[Xybernauts]

Notice how said guy is a superpowered alien whose powers have nothing to do with "athleticism" as we define it.

And even if your point was valid, it still serves only to underscore mine. To wit:

If wearing a legless, sleeveless onesie is such a boon to the "athletic pursuit" of crimefighting ... why are female crimefighters (by and large) the only ones who wear them? Why don't Batman and Spider-Man and Captain America run around with their limbs bare and their upper chests exposed? Also, last I checked, although some female athletes do wear legless/sleeveless outfits during competition, they don't generally wear strapless ones.

I agree not all heroes are athletic by nature, but I feel WW is one of the exceptions. In addition when I think of WW in relation to athleticism I think of the Olympics, so to me I get Atom's point. It kinda makes sense.


Well, the whole cultural history behind women's shoes and hence high heels does come down to patriarchal discourses but that's besides the point. No one has at all suggested the Amazons were nuns, a nun's uniform attempts to erase and cloister a woman's feminine attributes and the Amazons certainly would not practice such. The problem, however, is that there is no reason why Amazons would sexually exploit themselves for non existent men. It's like suggesting nudists all rouge their nipples and masturbate themselves in public while people clap; being comfortable and taking pride in your body is different to subjugating it to the purview of male erotic fantasy. Especially since, comic wise, all these Amazons are former victims of rape who reject man's world and Diana is their ambassador to show them the right way. It's utterly non-sensical for her to wear panties, let alone ones which have US sigils on them.

Also, the speedos don't reveal much flesh, Wonder Woman's costume does. In many incarnations it rides right up her butt. The moment I can see Superman's balls peeking out the side of his knickers then I'll concede he's a masturbation fantasy, but he isn't now. Besides, he doesn't seem to have any appreciable bulge to fantasise over.

And thank god for that.

[milosimpkin]

Yes. But only if you're from an other dimension where the combination of the colours red, white and blue (and eagles) don't carry this huge political weight.

Well I find red , white and blue to not just refer to the USA personally. Britain and France both use them for their national colours as well, and although the UK has no real connection with eagles France can make a claim to have connection form the French Imperial Eagle.

The colours and symbols do hold political weight, I agree with that, but it is not just limited to the United States. In fact it has been noted that red, white and blue flags are disproportionately high around the world compared with other colour combinations.

Of the 193 states with international recognition 26 of them have flags that consist of red, white and blue fields, and that's only taking original flags not derived ones like Australia.

From a quick count it looks like 11 countries have the eagle as a national emblem and that only really seems to be beaten bu the lion. So again it is hardly an uncommon reference.

Also from some research 67 countries use stars in their flags.

It would seem that all of the colours and images represented on Wonder Woman's costume are commonplace in national; identity around the world, probably due to what they represent outside of politically individual entities.

As to the actual cut of the outfit, I personally prefer the 'big pants' look rather than the high cut leg holes that some people draw. Either way though I don't think they undermine her in any way, and I don't believe she would have become such an icon for women around the world if she was being undermined by her costume.

[Robo Ape]

It has to be said in world of woman comic characters their are worse costumes.

Look at the Witchblade has it ever been clarified exactly why her costume should be like that, same goes for Red Sonja?

[Xybernauts]

Well I find red , white and blue to not just refer to the USA personally. Britain and France both use them for their national colours as well, and although the UK has no real connection with eagles France can make a claim to have connection form the French Imperial Eagle.

The colours and symbols do hold political weight, I agree with that, but it is not just limited to the United States. In fact it has been noted that red, white and blue flags are disproportionately high around the world compared with other colour combinations.

Of the 193 states with international recognition 26 of them have flags that consist of red, white and blue fields, and that's only taking original flags not derived ones like Australia.

From a quick count it looks like 11 countries have the eagle as a national emblem and that only really seems to be beaten bu the lion. So again it is hardly an uncommon reference.

Also from some research 67 countries use stars in their flags.

It would seem that all of the colours and images represented on Wonder Woman's costume are commonplace in national; identity around the world, probably due to what they represent outside of politically individual entities.

As to the actual cut of the outfit, I personally prefer the 'big pants' look rather than the high cut leg holes that some people draw. Either way though I don't think they undermine her in any way, and I don't believe she would have become such an icon for women around the world if she was being undermined by her costume.

Really great arguement. It really helps accent the idea that WW is the ambassador of man.

I also really like the last part. It really makes sense.

Besides "quadruple U" did try other looks I believe.
In the pic below to the far left you see her in her white costume. It really isn't as iconic.

http://michaelmay.us/07blog/images/0510_wonderwoman_sm.jpg (http://michaelmay.us/07blog/images/0510_wonderwoman.jpg)

[BBeeryan]

Really great arguement. It really helps accent the idea that WW is the ambassador of man.

I also really like the last part. It really makes sense.

Besides "quadruple U" did try other looks I believe.
In the pic below to the far left you see her in her white costume. It really isn't as iconic.

http://michaelmay.us/07blog/images/0510_wonderwoman_sm.jpg (http://michaelmay.us/07blog/images/0510_wonderwoman.jpg)

The swim suit & **** me boots are classic.:biggrin:

[milosimpkin]

It really helps accent the idea that WW is the ambassador of man.

Personally I would change to that to the 'ambassador /to/ man' but thanks. I did try and point out that the emblems and colours she wears are the most common globally for just that reason.

[Black Atom]

Notice how said guy is a superpowered alien whose powers have nothing to do with "athleticism" as we define it.

How does Superman's super-powers preclude his being athletic?


And even if your point was valid, it still serves only to underscore mine. To wit:

If wearing a legless, sleeveless onesie is such a boon to the "athletic pursuit" of crimefighting ... why are female crimefighters (by and large) the only ones who wear them? Why don't Batman and Spider-Man and Captain America run around with their limbs bare and their upper chests exposed?

Because of differences in gender aesthetics so obvious they don't warrant explanation. And when WW was created, it wasn't terribly uncommon for males to expose their arms or legs anyhow. Look at Batman's sidekick.

Either way, my point in drawing a comparison to athletes was not to make a case that superhero costumes are practical (Batman's excessive cape goes in the face of that) but that such attire is not really unheard of or wildly unimaginable even in the real world for people who, like superheroes, mainly engage in physical activity. In the context of of what those people do, what they wear is completely appropriate. Naturally, if you showed up for a job interview in a wrestling leotard, it'd be silly, but in it's appropriate context, it's not at all.


Also, last I checked, although some female athletes do wear legless/sleeveless outfits during competition, they don't generally wear strapless ones.

Real athletes have real-world physics nagging on them, so they have to address such practical concerns, whereas WW does not. Would straps really make the costume seem more practical for a magical woman who fights evil to wear?

[dreyga2000]

http://arflovers.com/images/content/02_22_06_www2.jpghttp://www.actioncostumes.com/img/image_feedback/JimBowers.jpg

One of these things is not like the others.

With all due respect I don't think the old man, in what is a best cheap derivative Wonder Woman's costume, was really a fair comparision.... As opposed to pics like these...

http://www.divideby0.com/photos/2002-ComicCon/pics/DSCN1657.JPG

http://images.chron.com/blogs/tmi/COMIC_CON_CADP103.JPG

[Pól Rua]

With all due respect I don't think the old man, in what is a best cheap derivative Wonder Woman's costume, was really a fair comparision.... As opposed to pics like these...
The point was about equivalency.
I found two older gentlemen, both wearing Superhero costumes.
One is wearing a Superman outfit. One is wearing a Wonder Woman outfit.
Bored at 3:00am said there is no difference between WW's star-spangled knickers and Superman's trunks.
The picture illustrates that, on similar-looking people, YES, there IS a difference.

[Xybernauts]

http://images.chron.com/blogs/tmi/COMIC_CON_CADP103.JPG

Don't forget the pic I posted.


http://tvmedia.ign.com/tv/image/article/783/783905/ifl-battleground-20070426024400645.jpg

Here's another example using a manip of WW using the body of someone unknown to me and Charisma Carpenter's head. Great body. The strong physique makes the quadruple U costume more believable.

I also think having one strip of large stars in the star spangled panties (as in the pic below) helps pull off the look of WW a lot better then the star-spangled panties in the pics above. The panties in the pic above just has too many stars on it. I think the pic below proves that it's possible for the costume to work if you just lower the numbers of stars on the panties and make them larger.

Also, is it just me or does the WW without the tiara look better?



http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8376/sanstitre3ez9.jpg

[Bored at 3:00AM]

http://arflovers.com/images/content/02_22_06_www2.jpghttp://www.actioncostumes.com/img/image_feedback/JimBowers.jpg

One of these things is not like the others.

Yup.

One costume is clearly designed to emphasise a man's assets, the other is clearly designed to accentuate a woman's assets.

But I fail to see what you've trying to prove here. Both these people look silly, but the guy in the WW outfit looks sillier because he's wearing a woman's costume.

Men don't generally look good wearing women's clothes.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Well, the whole cultural history behind women's shoes and hence high heels does come down to patriarchal discourses but that's besides the point. No one has at all suggested the Amazons were nuns, a nun's uniform attempts to erase and cloister a woman's feminine attributes and the Amazons certainly would not practice such. The problem, however, is that there is no reason why Amazons would sexually exploit themselves for non existent men. It's like suggesting nudists all rouge their nipples and masturbate themselves in public while people clap; being comfortable and taking pride in your body is different to subjugating it to the purview of male erotic fantasy. Especially since, comic wise, all these Amazons are former victims of rape who reject man's world and Diana is their ambassador to show them the right way. It's utterly non-sensical for her to wear panties, let alone ones which have US sigils on them.

Also, the speedos don't reveal much flesh, Wonder Woman's costume does. In many incarnations it rides right up her butt. The moment I can see Superman's balls peeking out the side of his knickers then I'll concede he's a masturbation fantasy, but he isn't now. Besides, he doesn't seem to have any appreciable bulge to fantasise over.

The ancient Spartans fought in the frickin' nude! I see no reason why an Amazon would care about revealing too much flesh.

It's becoming clear that our views on the Amazons aren't really similar in any way. I view the Amazons as a heckuva lot more fun-loving than you do. I'm not sure if the super-serious rape victims characterization is their most prominent feature. That happened thousands of years ago. Surely, Amazons culture is more about love, passion and healthy competition than hate, sexual repression and victimization.

Anywho, obviously we're not going to agree on any of this because we see the character too differently.

[LungerTony]

Anywho, obviously we're not going to agree on any of this because we see the character too differently.

Yet this thread will probably approach 100 pages one day. The more I read the less any of it makes sense.

[40footwolf]

Regardless of whether it undermines her, it's a silly design. The same goes for Batman and Superman. All three of them need updates.

We called that "the 90's".

As you may recall, it was an absolute, unmitigated disaster.

[JumpingJupiter]

YES! The answer is yes! End of thread dammit!

[Libaax]

That's just a matter of preference, though. It doesn't mean the costume is bad or sexist. WW wears more than Martian Manhunter does and skintight costume that covers head-to-toe can be more sexualized than one that doesn't have sleeves, for instance.



It was lame sarcasm.

What did you expect ? An exact science about why her suit is 100 times worse than many others specially the other two famous heroes of the so called trinity.

The reason she isnt nearly as famous her fans think are because of the suit.

Why are you comparing her to MM. I said she was ruined by her old history and the sexism of how she must look. Then you go and compare to a male alien hero. There is a huge difference how a male superhero can look and how a female one can look in costume. Wonder Woman and Power Girl are the worst examples i have seen for famous female superheroes.....

The guy qouting me further down in thread post huge comp pictures or animationes thats not how she looks in the comics.

Also talk about preferences. I didnt have any when i started reading superhero. I tried everything in DCU before settling for Batman and his gang. I even read Superman and i always thought he was a bore. I read many female superheroes but WW i walked around and not to.....

Nothing to do with the type of heroes i like to read NOW....

[Xybernauts]

What did you expect ? An exact science about why her suit is 100 times worse than many others specially the other two famous heroes of the so called trinity.

The reason she isnt nearly as famous her fans think are because of the suit.

Why are you comparing her to MM. I said she was ruined by her old history and the sexism of how she must look. Then you go and compare to a male alien hero. There is a huge difference how a male superhero can look and how a female one can look in costume. Wonder Woman and Power Girl are the worst examples i have seen for famous female superheroes.....

The guy qouting me further down in thread post huge comp pictures or animationes thats not how she looks in the comics.

Also talk about preferences. I didnt have any when i started reading superhero. I tried everything in DCU before settling for Batman and his gang. I even read Superman and i always thought he was a bore. I read many female superheroes but WW i walked around and not to.....

Nothing to do with the type of heroes i like to read NOW....

That has less to do with her costume and more to do with how she's advertised by DC. DC simply puts more focus on Batman and Superman. The problem with WW is people aren't really familiar with her and people usually lean to sticking to what their familiar with. Why take the chance on WW when you can play it safe buying a book which you are familiar with and which probably has a better chance of having an entertaining story written in it. WW has no city of her own besides her city of origin, her rouge's gallery is less then compelling, she just needs stronger roots in the comic book community, Plus there are a lot more Superman and Batman books then there are WW books. DC simply invests more in Supe and Bats then they do in quadruple U.

[kalorama]

That has less to do with her costume and more to do with how she's advertised by DC. DC simply puts more focus on Batman and Superman. The problem with WW is people aren't really familiar with her and people usually lean to sticking to what their familiar with. Why take the chance on WW when you can play it safe buying a book which you are familiar with and which probably has a better chance of having an entertaining story written in it. WW has no city of her own besides her city of origin, her rouge's gallery is less then compelling, she just needs stronger roots in the comic book community, Plus there are a lot more Superman and Batman books then there are WW books. DC simply invests more in Supe and Bats then they do in quadruple U.

You're putting the egg before the chicken. There's a reason why DC hasn't been as successful at selling WW to the masses as they have Batman and Superman, and part of the reason is because the image projected by her appearance is one of lingering anachronistic camp and, unlike with Batman, they simply haven't found an effective way to counter that perception.

Giving her "stronger roots in the comic book community" (A) is a nonargument even within comics, because DC has spent the last decade giving her "stronger roots in the comic book community" by repeatedly beating us over the head with the idea that she forms some kind of equilateral holy DC Comics Trinity with Batman and Superman. They've done everything they could think off short of sending individualized postcards to convince us that WW is just as important and vital as Superman and Batman, all to no avail. Still, nobody really cares about her, and (B) won't do anything to help sell her to the noncomic world in the form of movies and TV shows, which is where the real money's at (and it's all about the money).

[Kaos]

It's a silly designs and doesn't look like something an amazon would wear. The American steez just isn't right.

[Lupek]

I don't like it when her shorts are drawn so small that you can see the outside corners of her pubic area, as on the cover to Identity Crisis. I'm not a prude but that seemed like fan wankery to me. Otherwise it is a great costume.

[Robo Ape]

I don't like it when her shorts are drawn so small that you can see the outside corners of her pubic area, as on the cover to Identity Crisis. I'm not a prude but that seemed like fan wankery to me. Otherwise it is a great costume.

It also seems to be the fact that those self same shorts have shrunk over the years, the way it's going she will end up with a G-String!

[Black Atom]

What did you expect ? An exact science about why her suit is 100 times worse than many others specially the other two famous heroes of the so called trinity.

Well, I'd expect some evidence or even reasonable support for a unilateral assumption like this one:


The reason she isnt nearly as famous her fans think are because of the suit.

For starters, this claim doesn't really make sense. WW is tremendously "famous" or well-known--that fame just hasn't translated to sales of comicbooks as well as it has for Batman and Superman. That probably has more to do with her being a female character than any other factor.


Why are you comparing her to MM. I said she was ruined by her old history and the sexism of how she must look. Then you go and compare to a male alien hero.

I compared her to a male hero who's even more scantily clad to make the case that superhero costumes, in general, can be revealing. When WW was created, male heroes commonly wore as little or even less than her.


There is a huge difference how a male superhero can look and how a female one can look in costume. Wonder Woman and Power Girl are the worst examples i have seen for famous female superheroes.....

You could make a case for Power Girl because her costume draws direct attention to her breasts. WW wears a costume that bears her arms and legs, which is hardly even super-revealing.


The guy qouting me further down in thread post huge comp pictures or animationes thats not how she looks in the comics.

Also talk about preferences. I didnt have any when i started reading superhero. I tried everything in DCU before settling for Batman and his gang. I even read Superman and i always thought he was a bore. I read many female superheroes but WW i walked around and not to.....

Nothing to do with the type of heroes i like to read NOW....

But your preferences don't represent the sum total of either existing readers or potential readers.

[JumpingJupiter]

Actually the answer is, it depends. See avatar.

[kalorama]

You could make a case for Power Girl because her costume draws direct attention to her breasts. WW wears a costume that bears her arms and legs, which is hardly even super-revealing.

The fact that it's not (necessarily) salaciously revealing isn't really the point. The problem is that the design as a whole is incongruous with what the character is supposed to represent.

[Xybernauts]

You're putting the egg before the chicken. There's a reason why DC hasn't been as successful at selling WW to the masses as they have Batman and Superman, and part of the reason is because the image projected by her appearance is one of lingering anachronistic camp and, unlike with Batman, they simply haven't found an effective way to counter that perception.

Giving her "stronger roots in the comic book community" (A) is a nonargument even within comics, because DC has spent the last decade giving her "stronger roots in the comic book community" by repeatedly beating us over the head with the idea that she forms some kind of equilateral holy DC Comics Trinity with Batman and Superman. They've done everything they could think off short of sending individualized postcards to convince us that WW is just as important and vital as Superman and Batman, all to no avail. Still, nobody really cares about her, and (B) won't do anything to help sell her to the noncomic world in the form of movies and TV shows, which is where the real money's at (and it's all about the money).

I still think it's the advertising. Look at Batman and Superman. Both have had their own far-reaching story arcs. Superman has had the Death of Superman and Batman has had Knightfall (w/ Knightquest, and Knightsomething), No Man's Land, etc. I'm sure their are others, but the point is these story arcs were highly advertised. At the time No Man's Land came out I had stopped reading comic books and I still managed to hear about it. Wonder Woman needs this type of intensive story arc with a large advertising campaign. It would attract new readers to the book and would give WW more exposure. I think DC is making a push to give WW more exposure by creating the new WW animated movie coming out and by putting her in the Trinity comics, thus making her more popular by 'association'. Besides, I'm someone who believes you can sell anything with the right sales pitch. WW must be marketable or should won't be held in such high regards as she is.

[Black Atom]

The fact that it's not (necessarily) salaciously revealing isn't really the point. The problem is that the design as a whole is incongruous with what the character is supposed to represent.

If you're talking about WW being an Amazon, then I agree. But then, that's really not a terribly important aspect of her iconography, to be honest.

If you're talking about WW being a feminist, then I don't agree.

[kalorama]

If you're talking about WW being an Amazon, then I agree. But then, that's really not a terribly important aspect of her iconography, to be honest.

May not be important to you, but it's the foundation the character is built upon, so the fact that her costume doesn't jibe with that foundation is a problematic contradiction.


If you're talking about WW being a feminist, then I don't agree.

Well then it's a good thing that's not really what I was talking about. I was never under the impression that she was a "feminist" anymore than I think she's a Democrat or a Rotarian, because all of those things (like her costume) are icons and emblems of a society to which she does not belong and of which she's not a part.

[West Mantooth]

The fact that this thread has gone on 26 pages means something must be rubbing people the wrong way.

Or we're all really lame.:biggrin:

[Crowforge]

She should wear a breastplate and an armored skirt.

[Libaax]

Well, I'd expect some evidence or even reasonable support for a unilateral assumption like this one:



For starters, this claim doesn't really make sense. WW is tremendously "famous" or well-known--that fame just hasn't translated to sales of comicbooks as well as it has for Batman and Superman. That probably has more to do with her being a female character than any other factor.



I compared her to a male hero who's even more scantily clad to make the case that superhero costumes, in general, can be revealing. When WW was created, male heroes commonly wore as little or even less than her.



You could make a case for Power Girl because her costume draws direct attention to her breasts. WW wears a costume that bears her arms and legs, which is hardly even super-revealing.



But your preferences don't represent the sum total of either existing readers or potential readers.


What are you the representive for the sum total of existing readers or potential ?

Whats the point of the thread if you or me cant talk what we think about the topic....


Your comparison to male heroes are really weak. If you cant see the sexism difference on how they draw some female heroes....

Wonder is unknown outside DC fans thats the point. Unless you think anyone already not a fan cared about some old tv movie....

[Xybernauts]

Your comparison to male heroes are really weak. If you cant see the sexism difference on how they draw some female heroes....

You didn't finish the sentence? Is there a sexism difference? I don't think there is. Men are stereotyped by being drawn with big muscles and tall just as WW has a big chest and curvy figure. What difference is there?



Wonder is unknown outside DC fans thats the point. Unless you think anyone already not a fan cared about some old tv movie....

Actually I think WW is pretty well known. In addition to the old TV movie there is the Superfriends cartoon. Justice League and Justice League Unlimited cartoons, and she's been spoofed in shows like Robot Chicken, etc. There's a whole list of other places here at http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0000266/ My point is she's pretty well known by the general public beyond simple DC fans.

[carabas]

You didn't finish the sentence? Is there a sexism difference? I don't think there is. Men are stereotyped by being drawn with big muscles and tall just as WW has a big chest and curvy figure. What difference is there?The difference is that WW gets her breasts, ass, thighs and crotch focused upon (some pencillesr are worse than others, of course choughBenescough), while rarely or never do we get any close ups of the Bulge Of steel.

Female characters generally get their primary and secundary sexual characteristics emphasised. Male characters generally do not.

[Xybernauts]

The difference is that WW gets her breasts, ass, thighs and crotch focused upon (some pencillesr are worse than others, of course choughBenescough), while rarely or never do we get any close ups of the Bulge Of steel.

Female characters generally get their primary and secundary sexual characteristics emphasised. Male characters generally do not.
Well genitals are a taboo area, regardless of your sex. It's not like we ever see WW's camel-toe.